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View Full Version : This has been bothering me lately



Peck
02-18-2010, 03:17 AM
I think most of us can agree that one of the very few bright spots this season has been the steady development of Roy Hibbert.

He is putting up modest but improved numbers from last year at basically 11 points and 6 rebounds a game.

He has played in 53 games and started 44 of those and has played a total of 1,283 min.

Here is what bothers me.

What would that line of min. played and games played be if Jeff Foster were healthy? He probably would get in most of those games but I bet his min. would be significantly reduced as well as the on floor production that he is giving us.

Why am I even talking about this? I don't know, lack of anything better to talk about.

I was going to put up a poll having people guess which game will get the least attendance the rest of the year, my guess is between the Tuesday night Kings game in March or the Saturday night Nets game in April.

Yea if you can't tell I'm way beyond even throwing in the towel for this season and right now I'm already preparing the white flag for next one as well.:(

Until we get some more talent and yes a NEW coach this team is on a treadmill to nowhere.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 03:21 AM
One hundred and eleven games to go.

MillerTime
02-18-2010, 03:30 AM
I cant wait for next year this time. I see us as really active players in next year's trade deadline and even possibly this summer

Im actually starting to lose faith in Bird. I'm disappointed that we havent traded Murphy yet. I dont see Murphy in our long term plans, and since we are not making the playoffs this year, I think we should have let him go for Z + pick (or even just Z). It would have helped us financially and kept us away from the LT. Lets admit it, having Murphy is not going to get us to the playoffs, why not bring our salary down?

I know Bird has been conservative, but dont you guys think hes being a little too conservative right now?

Peck
02-18-2010, 03:56 AM
One hundred and eleven games to go.

Till what though? 111 more games of O'Brien or 111 more games until the lockout/strike? Or 111 more games until we become the mid 2000 Chicago Bulls that had all of the money in the world but could not get a single good player to go there?

Sorry but right now I just don't feel to optomistic about this entire process. Hopefully my mood will change soon though.

Infinite MAN_force
02-18-2010, 04:02 AM
AJ Price is currently feeling the effects of the very same situation.

Our coach is an idiot.

Bball
02-18-2010, 04:07 AM
One hundred and eleven games to go.

Until they move from Indianapolis?

You realize that is the path we're on don't you?

Infinite MAN_force
02-18-2010, 04:13 AM
I just don't know what I'm going to do if JOB is still coaching next year, I may just need to take a year off from the pacers. The man does not give a **** about youth development, and that is the only reason for me to watch this crappy team. Its getting to the point where management needs to step in. Sack up Larry.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 04:39 AM
Till what though? 111 more games of O'Brien or 111 more games until the lockout/strike? Or 111 more games until we become the mid 2000 Chicago Bulls that had all of the money in the world but could not get a single good player to go there?

O'B is just a bridge to the end of those 111 games. He doesn't matter, we're not going anywhere with him unless we happen to get lucky in the draft anyway.

As for Chicago, we don't need to try what they did. We want to be more like this years Houston team.

They just traded an expiring for Martin, and Cleveland just traded an expiring for Jamison, how about that after all the posters on here were saying expiring's were't worth anything.

If we do nothing else by then we will have Troy, Dun, TJ, Jeff, and Tinsley off our salary cap.

We will have Granger, Hibbert, Hansbrough, Rush, Price, and D. Jones. Plus we could have 5 more draft picks counting the draft pick we get from Dallas.

So between now and the end of those 111 games we will have those expiring's and a bunch of young guys to offer in trades. If you ask me that's a great plan!

People complained for years that the Pacers didn't have a plan. Now people know exactly what the plan is and they are still unhappy.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 04:42 AM
Until they move from Indianapolis?

You realize that is the path we're on don't you?

You don't know that at all.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 05:01 AM
I just don't know what I'm going to do if JOB is still coaching next year, I may just need to take a year off from the pacers. The man does not give a **** about youth development, and that is the only reason for me to watch this crappy team. Its getting to the point where management needs to step in. Sack up Larry.

That's not true. He kept starting Rush this year when Rush was stinking.

Justin Tyme
02-18-2010, 08:40 AM
Until we get some more talent and yes a NEW coach this team is on a treadmill to nowhere.


AND a NEW FO leader!

Bird's ineptness is just ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY SICKINGLY PATHETIC.

Thank you Donnie Walsh!! (Reeking of sarcasm.)

Unclebuck
02-18-2010, 08:41 AM
Peck, I don't understand why you are worried about Jeff taking Roy's minutes - as you mention Jeff is out, so what difference does it make whether Jeff would have taken all of Roy's minutes or none of them.

sportfireman
02-18-2010, 08:47 AM
O'B is just a bridge to the end of those 111 games. He doesn't matter, we're not going anywhere with him unless we happen to get lucky in the draft anyway.

As for Chicago, we don't need to try what they did. We want to be more like this years Houston team.

They just traded an expiring for Martin, and Cleveland just traded an expiring for Jamison, how about that after all the posters on here were saying expiring's were't worth anything.

If we do nothing else by then we will have Troy, Dun, TJ, Jeff, and Tinsley off our salary cap.

We will have Granger, Hibbert, Hansbrough, Rush, Price, and D. Jones. Plus we could have 5 more draft picks counting the draft pick we get from Dallas.

So between now and the end of those 111 games we will have those expiring's and a bunch of young guys to offer in trades. If you ask me that's a great plan!

People complained for years that the Pacers didn't have a plan. Now people know exactly what the plan is and they are still unhappy.

There's no need to trade our your guys when you have expirings...... expiring are like gold...don't trade your gold and diamonds.

ksuttonjr76
02-18-2010, 08:55 AM
This summer we have to worry about contract extensions for Rush and Hibbert...

McKeyFan
02-18-2010, 09:07 AM
JOB is kind of a low level bully.

He doesn't mess with vets so much because they aren't as easy to manipulate. He messes with Roy a lot, because Roy has a good nature and handles it well. He lays off Rush because Rush doesn't respond to the bullying and strange manipulations.

He messes with AJ because AJ apparently can handle it.

So, it has nothing to do with fairness and equity. If JOB can bully you and get away with it, then he does.

BillS
02-18-2010, 09:29 AM
JOB is kind of a low level bully.

WTF?

The whole thing about the vile personality of JOB is beginning to get really old.

Someone can't just be wrong, or simply not good at what they do, they have to be somehow corrupt or evil.

Players can't just be frustrated at the circumstances - like, say, the fans are - they have to be angry and acting out against the coach and/or the front office and losing or not playing well on purpose.

Can we stop with the armchair psychology bits about how JOB is really only making these decisions because he wants to abuse players and go back to discussing that he somehow believes in veterans far more than justified? Seems a simpler solution.

BillS
02-18-2010, 09:33 AM
To the original topic:

Peck, it seems like you are really just trying to get people to rag on JOB for circumstances not even close to having occurred. There's plenty of actual stuff to get folks fired up about, why dredge this up?

Heck, I could come out and say that if we had Foster available we might actually have had some defense and rebounding that mattered and have WON more games. Significantly more games, if you ask me.

Of course, losing is the goal. Develop your young players and trade them at their peak for more young players you can develop, and lose lose lose.

McKeyFan
02-18-2010, 09:39 AM
WTF?

The whole thing about the vile personality of JOB is beginning to get really old.

Someone can't just be wrong, or simply not good at what they do, they have to be somehow corrupt or evil.

Players can't just be frustrated at the circumstances - like, say, the fans are - they have to be angry and acting out against the coach and/or the front office and losing or not playing well on purpose.

Can we stop with the armchair psychology bits about how JOB is really only making these decisions because he wants to abuse players and go back to discussing that he somehow believes in veterans far more than justified? Seems a simpler solution.

If he enforced principles across the board fairly (turnovers, bad defense, etc.) then he wouldn't be a bully, he'd be a hardnosed coach. But he doesn't.

Shade
02-18-2010, 09:39 AM
Hang in there. At the very least, this team will be significantly different by the All-Star break next season. Expect only about half of the current roster to remain.

McKeyFan
02-18-2010, 09:42 AM
Expect only about half of the current roster to remain.

A mutiny? Cool.

BillS
02-18-2010, 09:53 AM
If he enforced principles across the board fairly (turnovers, bad defense, etc.) then he wouldn't be a bully, he'd be a hardnosed coach. But he doesn't.

Or he could just be bad at it.

Bully implies intent at a certain level. Abuse of any kind is a serious accusation, and we shouldn't be throwing it around even in frustration without something more to back it up. Especially when there are other explanations (blinded by his other priorities, for instance).

Believing that sheer numbers on some areas more than make up for deficiencies in others even when saying something completely different is not bullying, it's just being bad at what you do.

Unclebuck
02-18-2010, 10:01 AM
WTF?

The whole thing about the vile personality of JOB is beginning to get really old.

Someone can't just be wrong, or simply not good at what they do, they have to be somehow corrupt or evil.

Players can't just be frustrated at the circumstances - like, say, the fans are - they have to be angry and acting out against the coach and/or the front office and losing or not playing well on purpose.

Can we stop with the armchair psychology bits about how JOB is really only making these decisions because he wants to abuse players and go back to discussing that he somehow believes in veterans far more than justified? Seems a simpler solution.

Thank you. But this post was needed back in November - but still a great post. And in reality most of my defense of O'Brien is trying to defend him against a lot of what you are saying needs to stop here. The implied notion that JOB has some evil intent is beyond my comprehension

pacergod2
02-18-2010, 10:08 AM
Expirings are great. It is just tough to have $50M worth. They won't reap that much after about 20-30M. But it is a great situation to be in. We will have expirings left after we have traded all of the ones that we possibly can.

I think Bird has done a great job with the **** platter he has been given. He needed a scapegoat coach and that is what we have. I just wish Bird would be more forceful in making sure our young guys get more minutes, but what that does is destroys the trade value of those "expiring veterans". Kind of a Catch 22.

Hicks
02-18-2010, 10:48 AM
They just traded an expiring for Martin, and Cleveland just traded an expiring for Jamison, how about that after all the posters on here were saying expiring's were't worth anything.

Let's keep this in perspective before more and more posters get overly excited about this.

Yes, Martin was had for an expiring contract... and Carl Landry.
Yes, Jamison was had for an expiring contract... and a 1st round (albeit low) draft pick.

We'll be trading away Rush, Hibbert, and maybe someone else along with our expirings if we want something good in return.

Now, I'm theoretically just fine with that depending on who we get, but just remember we won't be this suddenly "stacked" team by getting quality veterans to add TO our youth. Our youth will be part of what fetches us the veteran talent.

*edit* And I see later in your post you get to this; so I recognize that now. But in isolation it read differently, which is why I stopped on the spot and replied.

Others, I fear, don't realize that second part yet (youth will be out).

WetBob
02-18-2010, 10:49 AM
I once saw JOB eat a live baby. Dipping it, bit by bit, in McDonald's Hot Mustard.

Really weird, really gruesome.

That's his plan with guys like Price and McRoberts. Let them fatten up on the bench so he can enjoy them with a nice Chianti and some fava beans.

Sookie
02-18-2010, 11:22 AM
JOB is kind of a low level bully.

He doesn't mess with vets so much because they aren't as easy to manipulate. He messes with Roy a lot, because Roy has a good nature and handles it well. He lays off Rush because Rush doesn't respond to the bullying and strange manipulations.

He messes with AJ because AJ apparently can handle it.

So, it has nothing to do with fairness and equity. If JOB can bully you and get away with it, then he does.

I'm not sure whether he's a bully, or just doesn't know how to coach.

Let's look at what's he's done to A.J.



A.J. fills in for Watson one night, outplays Ford by quite a bit. JOB says AJ outplays the vets in practice, and that he'll have to find A.J. time.

A.J. gets about 5 DNPs in a row after that. And for about a month, doesn't get any significant time.

Then it switched, and we give Price a chance. Oh look, he's pretty good, shows potential. Watson's grandmother dies so he gets the start. TJ makes a couple of 3s and AJ's out of the lineup.

A.J. didn't play bad. Didn't do anything wrong. We have quotes from Earl about how he does things "the right way." And yet, with the Pacers going no where..and in fact with the Pacers clearly playing better with a Earl/AJ pg rotation. A.J. is out.

You have to be a pretty strong kid to handle that. You wanna know how coaches can ruin players. That's how coaches can ruin players. Bench him when he's earned his time and is playing well.

Only and idiot or a guy afraid of the Vets would do that.

And this is just one of the younger guys, I'm not even going to go into Rush and Roy.

Putnam
02-18-2010, 11:30 AM
Two things:

Concerning treatment of players, fair and equal isn't the same and isn't always desirable. People must be treated as individuals. As BillS says, it seems like O'Brien is failing, but there's no evidence he's a bully.

Concerning the Pacers expiring contracts and what the team will get for them. Don't you all see that saving money is the organization's #1 goal? When those contracts expire, TPTB may not care to replace them with an equal amount of news contracts. They may take the savings and be satisfied. They may run the team off TV revenues and revenue shared from the NBA, and call that pro basktball.

It works for the Clippers.
.

Unclebuck
02-18-2010, 11:44 AM
Roy seems to have weathered the evil O'Brien pretty well

vnzla81
02-18-2010, 11:44 AM
The implied notion that JOB has some evil intent is beyond my comprehension

Obrien in not evil, he is just doing whatever is possible to survive, in this case playing Murphy and the veterans "who give him the best chance to win"

Justin Tyme
02-18-2010, 11:50 AM
The implied notion that JOB has some evil intent is beyond my comprehension


Even I don't believe Jimmy has any evil intent. I just think he's stubborn to the point that it's going to be his demise as a HC in the NBA. Classic case of tunnel vision where he's right and everyone else is wrong about is system. I'm not sure I feel sorry for him or admire his fortitude of being right.

PaceBalls
02-18-2010, 11:53 AM
This summer we have to worry about contract extensions for Rush and Hibbert...

The rookie contract is through 2012-2013 with the qualifying offer the next year.

Unless things start looking up for the Pacers I doubt they would want to come back here. I'd bet if Roy could opt out next year he would, especially knowing he has another year of JOB to look forward to. Of course, in the end, it all comes down to who is offering the most money.

vnzla81
02-18-2010, 11:56 AM
For those who keep saying that we can get some kind of amazing player next year just check the deals that were made this week

1) Camby(expiring) to Portland for what? for two expiring contracts:confused:

2) TMac to the Kings: the Rockets trade Laundry and get a guy who can not stay on the court.

3) Big Z (expiring) Al and 1st round pick who is almost a second round pick to the Wizards for Jamison a 33 years old guy who has a big contract for the next two years and a used to be PG.

so in other words I would no get my hopes to high next year expecting the pacers to get a high quality still in his prime All Star player.

Justin Tyme
02-18-2010, 11:57 AM
Two things:


Concerning the Pacers expiring contracts and what the team will get for them. Don't you all see that saving money is the organization's #1 goal? When those contracts expire, TPTB may not care to replace them with an equal amount of news contracts. They may take the savings and be satisfied. .


Or they may getting the Pacers looking good for a sale.

Peck
02-18-2010, 11:58 AM
Peck, I don't understand why you are worried about Jeff taking Roy's minutes - as you mention Jeff is out, so what difference does it make whether Jeff would have taken all of Roy's minutes or none of them.

Really, none.

But just in thinking about this season in general the only real thing that I can take away from this, now that Tyler's season is a bust (not Tyler but his season), is that Roy gives the apperance of really being a starting level center in the NBA. Much to your chagrin I realize, but nonetheless.

As BillS stated and I'm certain that you agree, if Jeff were here you would have some more defense and rebounding and maybe a couple of more wins.

That is the problem for me.

Instead of 18 wins we might have 22 or hell maybe even 25. But at the end of the day what difference would that really make? Especially when the cost of that would be that Roy would not be on the floor? You would never have seen Roy outplay Dwight Howard or play Tim Duncan even on two different occasions so going into year 3 next year we would all still be wondering if Roy can play or not.

But like you said, it didn't happen so I should not have brought it up. But for some reason it has been on my mind lately.

Speed
02-18-2010, 12:06 PM
It's a good thing to consider, I think. You can say the same thing about AJ Price now except in reverse. If AJ doesn't play another minute, do you miss the time he out plays Derrick Rose for a half or takes Brandon Jennings to school, so you go into next season not knowing what AJ was capable of.

I mean AJ may get killed in those scenarios, but we won't know if he doesn't play. The point to me is back to Jeff and Roy, but potentially in reverse. So ya, I think it is important to consider.

Sookie
02-18-2010, 12:25 PM
It's a good thing to consider, I think. You can say the same thing about AJ Price now except in reverse. If AJ doesn't play another minute, do you miss the time he out plays Derrick Rose for a half or takes Brandon Jennings to school, so you go into next season not knowing what AJ was capable of.

I mean AJ may get killed in those scenarios, but we won't know if he doesn't play. The point to me is back to Jeff and Roy, but potentially in reverse. So ya, I think it is important to consider.

For the record, Price has played against Rose before.
Rose - 24 points, 0 assists, 6 rebounds, 5 turnovers
Price -23 points 1 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 turnovers

Memphis won, but quite frankly, they had a much better team even if you took AJ and Rose off their teams.

Just making the point. I'm not suggesting that Price is anywhere near Rose's level. But I am suggesting he's certainly capable of outplaying him. The kid has to play and learn in the pros in order for us to figure out what his future role will be with the team.

CableKC
02-18-2010, 12:39 PM
Here is what bothers me.

What would that line of min. played and games played be if Jeff Foster were healthy? He probably would get in most of those games but I bet his min. would be significantly reduced as well as the on floor production that he is giving us.
I agree with this as well. Half of me thinks that Hibbert is playing so many minutes now becuase JO'B actually thinks that he can contribute on both ends of the floor while the other half thinks that he's forced to play Hibbert so many minutes only because he has ABSOLUTELY no choice.

Taking Hansbrough out of the equation....if Foster was healthy....I really think that we'd see Murphy, Foster and Granger playing the bulk of the PF/C rotation with Hibbert getting whatever is left. This is because IMHO when given the choice....I think that JO'B will always choose Veteran Experience over a less experienced Player and always Offense over Defense ( with Foster being the only exception to the rule ).

But to be fair....I think that we'd also see a lot more Granger/Murphy/Foster SF/PF/C rotations....which probably would have helped us win a few more games. Unfortunately, it would have also meant that Foster probably would have played way too many minutes and would have worn him out by now.

Infinite MAN_force
02-18-2010, 12:41 PM
Roy seems to have weathered the evil O'Brien pretty well

And we can thank Jeff Foster's injury for that.

I think its a very relevant question for the OP to ask. Jeff Foster playing in front of Roy and maybe getting us 4-5 more wins (and thats generous, considering all the double digit losses this year) does absolutley NOTHING for this franchise. We don't make the playoffs, our draft pick is worse. Why??? Why play a guy at the end of his career on a losing team when the guy behind him might be the future starter at the position? Yea, I know it didn't happen, but its totally reasonable given the coaches track record.

Why start Rasho ahead of Roy when you are numerically eliminated from the playoffs? (last season)

Why the HELL do you bench AJ Price now? why? It doesn't make any ******* sense. I think I can speak for a decent amount of "whats left" of the people who still watch this team, when I say we are looking for some hope for the future here. Benching a productive young player for mediocre vets on a team that has almost no shot at the playoffs is a slap in the face to the paying fans, the ones who are left that is. I have no incentive to watch this team anymore.

spazzxb
02-18-2010, 12:54 PM
If you haven't noticed a lot of people on this board never had a towel to begin with, suprised you held on to yours so long. I would wait until the summers over before you start complaining about next years team.. If Jeff wasn't out for the season he still would be playing with a bad back and missing some games its his MO. Also do you really think foster can outplay Roy( the guy can't make a layup and since when did this team care about defense.)

MagicRat
02-18-2010, 12:54 PM
JOB is kind of a low level bully.

RARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/jimodill.jpg

Thesterovic
02-18-2010, 03:40 PM
Your right. Jeff wouldn't let Roy play if he were healthy. Thats what I'm worried about next year. Especially if we get Brad Miller. Jim probably feels locked in a cage, stuck playing with Roy and Rush.