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moops
02-13-2010, 12:38 PM
He says at his midseason review that the Pacers are four years into a six year rebuilding project. Is it time for Larry to admit he doesn't know what he's doing?

Too much to post here at -

http://indysportsonline.com/2010/02/13/indianapolis-gms-need-to-take-some-responsibility-for-teams-performance/

Will Galen
02-13-2010, 12:42 PM
I disagree! I'll leave it at that.

Putnam
02-13-2010, 12:50 PM
Or, maybe it is time for us all to admit that we don't know what he is doing.

Bird and the rest of TPTB don't owe us full disclosure. It hurts for fans (especially season ticket holders) to admit this, but it is true. TPTB have no obligation ever, and seldom have any motivation, to tell Mike Wells or Bruno or us directly what they are really thinking and doing.

We can fault them when what they do doesn't please us, but most of our criticism of their statements is bogus.

Look. The CIA lies to the president. Politicians lie to voters. CEOs lie to stockholders. Bosses lie to employees. Parents lie to their children.

It just isn't reasonable to expect Bird to tell us everything he plans to do. And it isn't even reasonable to expect him to keep on a multi-year timetable when circumstances beyond his control keep changing.


.

BlueNGold
02-13-2010, 01:03 PM
I buy the fact we are 4 years into a 6 year rebuild. Could they have shortened it? IDK. But I do expect to see this team in the playoffs in 2 or 3 years.

If we pick up some talent in the next two drafts and see significant improvement from just a couple of our young guys over the next two years, we will be right back in the playoffs. IMO, both of those things are likely. But more important is that several overpaid players will be off the payroll...and we will have some money to bring in an additional piece or two. Not a 2 or 3 million dollar backup, but a 6 or 8 million dollar legit starter.

dlewyus
02-13-2010, 01:07 PM
Bird just said it the other day, "the losses are on me".

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4905746 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4905746)

Gamble1
02-13-2010, 01:23 PM
He says at his midseason review that the Pacers are four years into a six year rebuilding project. Is it time for Larry to admit he doesn't know what he's doing?

Too much to post here at -

http://indysportsonline.com/2010/02/13/indianapolis-gms-need-to-take-some-responsibility-for-teams-performance/
When you inherit a turd its hard to shine it into a nugget of gold.

I look at Larry from 2008 and on so I can't put all the blame on him. Certianly the drafting of Jordan Hill supported my view that Donnie had lost some his magic but I can't be certain of that.

The fact is I doubt anyone could have done a better job given the same hand that was dealt. The coaching is the only sticking point for me but whenever you asked someone who would they replace him with everybody just shuts up or mentions some retread. Its always easier said then done, IMO.

McKeyFan
02-13-2010, 01:26 PM
Or, maybe it is time for us all to admit that we don't know what he is doing.

Bird and the rest of TPTB don't owe us full disclosure. It hurts for fans (especially season ticket holders) to admit this, but it is true. TPTB have no obligation ever, and seldom have any motivation, to tell Mike Wells or Bruno or us directly what they are really thinking and doing.

So, he SAID he hoped to make the playoffs the last couple of years, but he was lying. He was really trying to assemble a really crappy team that plays bad basketball and ignores the fundamentals.

MLB007
02-13-2010, 01:50 PM
We've got most of the pieces of a fine team in place. Whether they will jell together IF they ever all get healthy at the same time remains to be seen.
I'm pleased with the progress I"m seeing in terms of pieces of the puzzle. Understanding that the losses are going to be tough to take is part of it.
Hibbert - 5
Hansbrough - 4
Granger - 3
Rush - 2
AJ - 1
We've never had that lineup together. Seems like he's done a decent job through the draft to me. Do we need another piece or two? For sure. That's why it's a rebuilding.

Putnam
02-13-2010, 04:57 PM
So, he SAID he hoped to make the playoffs the last couple of years, but he was lying.

Aw. I said Bird is not obligated to always tell us everything he knows or plans to do. It doesn't follow from that that anything he says is a lie. I'm sure most of what he says is honest and straightforward. I don't mean to accuse him of lying.

My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.

sportfireman
02-13-2010, 04:59 PM
Aw. I said Bird is not obligated to always tell us everything he knows or plans to do. It doesn't follow from that that anything he says is a lie. I'm sure most of what he says is honest and straightforward. I don't mean to accuse him of lying.

My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.

whenever I read Putnam's words I hear them being spoken in Smither's voice..............:laugh:

McKeyFan
02-13-2010, 05:27 PM
Aw. I said Bird is not obligated to always tell us everything he knows or plans to do. It doesn't follow from that that anything he says is a lie. I'm sure most of what he says is honest and straightforward. I don't mean to accuse him of lying.

My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.

Okay, fair enough.

The product on the floor is, well . . . challenged.

Justin Tyme
02-13-2010, 06:24 PM
My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.


That's exactly what's happening! This team is 18-34 not 34-18. It's being judged by it's accomplishments on the floor, and those responsible for this 18-34 record are being judged for the product they have assembled.

How dare Bird ask for the fan's patience when they have been patient for years with what's happened since the brawl. How can Bird with a straight face make a statement like that. The Pacers fans after being patient for years deserve to see more results and not some overpaid FO person in the puzzle place asking for more patience after the Pacers FO made poor management decisions. They are being judged by their actions or lack of action. The fans can't control their actions, or their inept decisions, but Bird can come and ask for more patience from the fans when he starts feeling the heat of accountability. At some point Mr. Bird, patience has to be earned not just given freely for the asking when the heat is being felt. You want patience then give us something that makes us feel patient, otherwise don't ask for the fans patience. The fans didn't create a 18-34 record. You did! Remember it's on YOU! So if the heat in the kitchen is too hot, get out.

Putnam
02-14-2010, 08:32 AM
My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.


That's exactly what's happening! This team is 18-34 not 34-18. It's being judged by it's accomplishments on the floor

Well, the OP isn't.


Is it time for Larry to admit he doesn't know what he's doing?

The OP delves into more than what is evident on the floor. It judges Bird on his intentions and his unfillfilled plans. In other words, it judges him on those things that we cannot know enough about to judge fairly.

ChicagoJ
02-15-2010, 12:49 PM
Can we dispell the myth that a team can really rebuild in only three years.

Of course they're stringing us along with the hope that they can be competitive soon.

If Bird comes out and says, "this is gonna take a while, we might not advance to the second round of the playoffs until 2013-14 or later", how many people are going to stick around for the 2009-10 season?

Bird has to do two things at once, and they aren't automatically in sync. He's got to make the right decisions to build the future team. And he's got to sell the current team to the customers.

You've got to be able to read between the marketing lines if you want to understand the actual moves/ strategy.

Putnam
02-15-2010, 01:11 PM
You've got to be able to read between the marketing lines if you want to understand the actual moves/ strategy.

This is right. What Bird or any of TPTB actually say doesn't bear much scrutiny. It is naive to expect it to.

I would go a step further than J, though, and say most of us shouldn't even bother trying to "understand the actual moves/strategy."

ChicagoJ
02-15-2010, 01:30 PM
This is right. What Bird or any of TPTB actually say doesn't bear much scrutiny. It is naive to expect it to.

I would go a step further than J, though, and say most of us shouldn't even bother trying to "understand the actual moves/strategy."

That reads a little bit too much like "blind faith" to me.

"Blind Faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed."

Putnam
02-15-2010, 01:49 PM
That reads a little bit too much like "blind faith" to me.

"Blind Faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed."


That's so. I'm not trying to advocate the faith, but I do think we should admit the blindness.


Few of us have access to any facts. We know nothing of what is said in the locker room or front office, and we don't know whether what Mike Wells writes is true. I have a lot of confidence in what Mark Boyle says, but I also know he doesn't say all he knows.

Right now, a lot of people are angry that the Pacers are playing so badly, and even angrier because Bird and O'Brien seem not to be making sense or keeping their promises.

I'm saying it makes sense to be angry about the losing. But it doesn't really make sense to get upset about the dissembling and prevarication.

ChicagoJ
02-15-2010, 01:54 PM
How blind are we?

We see the assembled team, the coaching staff, the finished product.

I know we only see 2% of total amount of activity involved with putting the team together, but we do see the "finished" product (meaning, the current team put on the court night after night.)

Unclebuck
02-15-2010, 02:22 PM
Assuming Bird is here through the next two and a half years and if things aren;t any better - then yes Bird needs to accept responsibility (whatever difference that makes, I don't know).

But we all know and knew that nothing was going to really change until after the summer of 2011

is anyone surprised by that - I hope not - you shouldn't be

Peck
02-15-2010, 02:31 PM
Actually U.B. I am guilty of thinking that this team would play differantly this season and that there would be a much greater emphasis placed on defense and that we would go to a more stable offensive structure. I guess I thought with the players they brought in that this would be the way we go.

I never believed we would be contenders or anything and wasn't even sure about the playoffs but I did suspect about 36-38 wins. As it is we are going to be lucky to get to 30 wins.


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d_c
02-15-2010, 02:34 PM
I never believed we would be contenders or anything and wasn't even sure about the playoffs but I did suspect about 36-38 wins.

A third consecutive season of 36-38 wins would really just be chasing your tail and banging your head on the wall (4th if you counted the 35 win season previous to those). It's exactly where you don't want to be in this league.

Unclebuck
02-15-2010, 02:34 PM
Actually U.B. I am guilty of thinking that this team would play differantly this season and that there would be a much greater emphasis placed on defense and that we would go to a more stable offensive structure. I guess I thought with the players they brought in that this would be the way we go.

I never believed we would be contenders or anything and wasn't even sure about the playoffs but I did suspect about 36-38 wins. As it is we are going to be lucky to get to 30 wins.






Yes I understand that, but winning 36-38 games is essentually the same as the past two seasons. There was no way there was going to be any real change unless they got lucky and won the lottery or until after the summer of 2011. (I'm not talking about style of play, or anything like that, I'm talking win/loss botton line)

Justin Tyme
02-15-2010, 03:24 PM
Yes I understand that, but winning 36-38 games is essentually the same as the past two seasons. There was no way there was going to be any real change unless they got lucky and won the lottery or until after the summer of 2011. (I'm not talking about style of play, or anything like that, I'm talking win/loss botton line)


I believe I predicted 38 wins this season & didn't expect to make the playoffs, BUT I didn't expect the wheels to fall off the wagon either when Bird talked about playing better "D" when picking up players who were supposedly capable of playing "D". Just remember, he said "the losses are on him", so he's responsible. Let him ACCEPT the responsibility of the failure, b/c that is exactly what this season has been.... a failure. He's the leader of this failure, and he needs to accept the "responsibility" of the failure... win/loss bottom line.

Putnam
02-15-2010, 03:30 PM
How blind are we?

We see the assembled team, the coaching staff, the finished product.

I know we only see 2% of total amount of activity involved with putting the team together, but we do see the "finished" product (meaning, the current team put on the court night after night.)

I'm just trying to make a small point. As you say, we see the result clearly. But we see nothing behind the scenes and what we hear is often incorrect. Sometimes it is calculated to misinform.


So, fuss about the result all you want. It's obviously bad. I'm not preaching contentment.

And, if I can speak for him, neither is kegboy.

:thisisnotfun:

.

Unclebuck
02-15-2010, 03:31 PM
I believe I predicted 38 wins this season & didn't expect to make the playoffs, BUT I didn't expect the wheels to fall off the wagon either when Bird talked about playing better "D" when picking up players who were supposedly capable of playing "D". Just remember, he said "the losses are on him", so he's responsible. Let him ACCEPT the responsibility of the failure, b/c that is exactly what this season has been.... a failure. He's the leader of this failure, and he needs to accept the "responsibility" of the failure... win/loss bottom line.

We are talking about different things. I'm saying that there wasn't going to be any subtantial change until the summer of 2011 and by substantial I don't mean the type of things you and Peck are talking aboput. I'm talking about becoming a 50-55 win team.

So if you want to blame Bird for this season, fine, i don't really care, but it was wrong for anyone to think this season was going to be substantially any better than the past two. And almost all of us knew this based on the predictions all of us made, so I don't know why the barometer by which we grade Bird has changed from the start of the season.

I would have to go back and re-read old threads to see if anyone said Bird needs to go or accept responsibility if the team wins 27 games

Naptown_Seth
02-15-2010, 03:44 PM
Or, maybe it is time for us all to admit that we don't know what he is doing.

Bird and the rest of TPTB don't owe us full disclosure. It hurts for fans (especially season ticket holders) to admit this, but it is true. TPTB have no obligation ever, and seldom have any motivation, to tell Mike Wells or Bruno or us directly what they are really thinking and doing.

We can fault them when what they do doesn't please us, but most of our criticism of their statements is bogus.

Look. The CIA lies to the president. Politicians lie to voters. CEOs lie to stockholders. Bosses lie to employees. Parents lie to their children.

It just isn't reasonable to expect Bird to tell us everything he plans to do. And it isn't even reasonable to expect him to keep on a multi-year timetable when circumstances beyond his control keep changing.


.
And fans are under no obligation to pay for tickets or tune into games.

It isn't reasonable for Bird to expect fans to be patient just because he says "be patient". Why? What can he now say that I'll believe?

First it was "we see this roster as a playoff team this year".

Then it was "this is part of the THREE year plan".

Now it's "this is part of the 6 year plan."




"This time it's going to be different" is the first stage of someone making the really bad choice to trust someone yet again.

Enough Larry. Just stop talking completely, same with JOB. I like candid leadership, but you ARE NOT CANDID. You are swapping out explanations of the situation with each passing month.

I'm on the verge of getting so annoyed that I'll go back and dig up all the various quotes and string them together in one long list of total BS.



What gets me is people on PD will defend Larry with "if Larry says he's the guy he wanted that's good enough for me". But now we are acknowledging that either Larry is hiding some truths or constantly changing his mind about the real situation. So how do we really know that Tyler was the guy he wanted, or Rush or Hibbert or Diener or Watson....

Will it be year 5 of the 8 year plan next? Did JOB know he was developing a team that was 5-6 years out? Why play Rasho AT ALL if it's year 2-3 of a 6 year plan?

In fact there's a long list of stuff you would not do if you were really in a 6 year plan.

Naptown_Seth
02-15-2010, 03:51 PM
Actually U.B. I am guilty of thinking that this team would play differantly this season and that there would be a much greater emphasis placed on defense and that we would go to a more stable offensive structure. I guess I thought with the players they brought in that this would be the way we go.

I never believed we would be contenders or anything and wasn't even sure about the playoffs but I did suspect about 36-38 wins. As it is we are going to be lucky to get to 30 wins.
And you SHOULD have expected more defense. They went out and got 2 defensive specialists with Jones and Jones.

Actions do the talking, and those actions include who you get, when you get them and how much you pay. Sure, I don't know how many players they asked about or tried to sign or tried to trade for, but I do know that when they had the ability to spend next to nothing on a bunch of roster filler for 1 year deals, guys barely out of the NBDL, they instead spent more money to get Jones (and a long deal), Jones, Watson and even at the last second Luther Head. I know 100% that they wanted Hans more than Holiday or Lawson.


I'm sick of this pseudo shroud of secrecy. We know that there are things behind the scenes, but is anyone stumped by the ACTIONS of OKC or NYK (since Isiah)? Who is wondering just where Portland is headed or what they are trying to do?

Heck, it's even clear what Washington is now trying to do.

This isn't brain surgery.

90'sNBARocked
02-15-2010, 03:52 PM
Assuming Bird is here through the next two and a half years and if things aren;t any better - then yes Bird needs to accept responsibility (whatever difference that makes, I don't know).

But we all know and knew that nothing was going to really change until after the summer of 2011

is anyone surprised by that - I hope not - you shouldn't be

Good point,

howerever after last season , you assumed they would at least be as competitive if not more than last year

Dun healthy, Granger after an all-star year, new defensive aquisitions


record and morale is far worse this year , and im not to sure anyone saw that comming ( I know I didnt)

Putnam
02-15-2010, 04:08 PM
Enough Larry. Just stop talking completely, same with JOB. I like candid leadership, but you ARE NOT CANDID. You are swapping out explanations of the situation with each passing month.

Bing!http://theu.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/celebs/insurance_agent_ned.gif





I'm on the verge of getting so annoyed that I'll go back and dig up all the various quotes and string them together in one long list of total BS.

Why bother? Nearly all of us recognize it as total BS already.

(The only thing that makes me different is I am not angry about it.)

Naptown_Seth
02-15-2010, 04:09 PM
And it isn't even reasonable to expect him to keep on a multi-year timetable when circumstances beyond his control keep changing.
One thing I forgot here. Bird is saying he IS STICKING to his timetable and that it's just longer than he said it was before. It's all part of his plan, that's the issue here.

1) Admit that the 3 year plan is failing.

Reason - unforeseen circumstances.

Fault - GM should have some ability to prepare for those and guide the team through them, all teams face unforeseen circumstances.

2) Tell us that he's had to CHANGE to a new plan, a 6 year plan.

Reason - you need a plan to go foward

Fault - how can you be in the MIDDLE of a NEW PLAN? You can't. So he's trying to get us to buy that this was the plan all along, but it can't be because that plan failed due to, as you mention Putty, unforeseen circumstances.


The better option is to come up with a new 2-3 year plan meant to deal with these new developments. And that plan should include CONTINGENCIES if things go wrong. A good GM can picture possible injuries, labor strife, reduced caps due to the economy, etc.

GM of a multi-million dollar org is a tough job and requires a lot of work. This isn't 2-3 hours playing Mr. Big Time on NBA2K every day. It's hard enough that I can see a lot of us failing at it.

But the fact that I or you would fail doesn't relieve Bird of criticism. It means he should be out here with us on the outside looking in at someone that does have preparations in place for when things go wrong.

Unclebuck
02-15-2010, 04:10 PM
.


I'm sick of this pseudo shroud of secrecy. We know that there are things behind the scenes, but is anyone stumped by the ACTIONS of OKC or NYK (since Isiah)? Who is wondering just where Portland is headed or what they are trying to do?

Heck, it's even clear what Washington is now trying to do.



I disagree. It is obvious what they are doing. They are positioning themselves for 2011 free agency. In the meantime they are trying to draft and establish a few young players who can along with Granger make up the nucleus of this team.

Wait, before you jump down my throat and say, they won't be able to sign anyone during the summer of 2011 as no one will want to play here. Maybe, maybe not. If that is the case OK fine then they need to trade the expiring contracts for players who will be building blocks.

Isn't it obvious. What am I missing


(the defense is a little better this season than last year).

Seth - this is only Bird's second year)

Naptown_Seth
02-15-2010, 04:12 PM
(The only thing that makes me different is I am not angry about it.)
Do I hate you or admire you for this?
:hmm:

;)


The coaching is the only sticking point for me but whenever you asked someone who would they replace him with everybody just shuts up or mentions some retread
I mention Tom Thibadeau who's been bubbling toward the top of the new coaching ranks for a couple of years now. Couldn't a coach like that have been learning the ropes with his young, floundering team? Then we could all say "the coach is getting better" assuming he was of course. You'd see the development of both the coaching and the players and realize that we are headed upward and onward.

Right now this stuff just seems like WASTED YEARS.

What did last year accomplish? Or the year before?

Naptown_Seth
02-15-2010, 04:23 PM
Can we dispell the myth that a team can really rebuild in only three years.
Not unless you pretend the Utah Jazz don't exist, the mid-90's Lakers don't exist (they went from Magic playoffs to Nick at Night playoffs to Kobe and Shaq playoffs to Phil Jax title, they kept rebuilding in ZERO years), Miami doesn't exist, New Orleans doesn't exist, the 90's Pacers don't exist...

There's a LOT of playoff teams that were not playoff teams for 2-3 years prior.

You can take a bad team and make them playoff capable in 3 years, it happens a lot, and not just with a #1 pick.

PacerDude
02-15-2010, 04:27 PM
A good GM can picture possible injuries, labor strife, reduced caps due to the economy, etc..Wha-wha-WHAT ??

So Cleveland has a plan in place so that when LeBron blows his knee out, they'll remain competitive ?? I can understand the need for financial forecasting and the other business aspects of the position, but to foresee the injuries that could hit a team thru a 82 games season and have a plan to go a long with that, well, maybe he should just go to Vegas instead of dealing with an NBA team. Put it all on red. Or black. He'll know.

vnzla81
02-15-2010, 04:51 PM
Wha-wha-WHAT ??

So Cleveland has a plan in place so that when LeBron blows his knee out, they'll remain competitive ?? I can understand the need for financial forecasting and the other business aspects of the position, but to foresee the injuries that could hit a team thru a 82 games season and have a plan to go a long with that, well, maybe he should just go to Vegas instead of dealing with an NBA team. Put it all on red. Or black. He'll know.

yes they do, is call "tanking for another good player", a thing that Bird refuse to do.

ChicagoJ
02-15-2010, 06:08 PM
Not unless you pretend the Utah Jazz don't exist, the mid-90's Lakers don't exist (they went from Magic playoffs to Nick at Night playoffs to Kobe and Shaq playoffs to Phil Jax title, they kept rebuilding in ZERO years), Miami doesn't exist, New Orleans doesn't exist, the 90's Pacers don't exist...

There's a LOT of playoff teams that were not playoff teams for 2-3 years prior.

You can take a bad team and make them playoff capable in 3 years, it happens a lot, and not just with a #1 pick.

Is "just getting into the playoffs" the goal of the rebuild?

I think the 1990s Pacers were built over more than three years. They drafted the two centerpiece players in 1987 and 1988, and finally made the ECFs in 1994 and NBA Finals in 2000. That's not "three years".

Justin Tyme
02-15-2010, 06:30 PM
[QUOTE=Unclebuck;960025]


it was wrong for anyone to think this season was going to be substantially any better than the past two. And almost all of us knew this based on the predictions all of us made, so I don't know why the barometer by which we grade Bird has changed from the start of the season.QUOTE]



If I had thought this season was going to be better I obviously wouldn't have predicted 37-38 wins. I have NEVER changed how I judge Bird as a GM. And yes w/o a doubt I do blame Bird for this :censored: season. Bird's nothing more a re-run of McHale and Zeke as a GM except Zeke was a good evaluator of talent in the draft.

Justin Tyme
02-15-2010, 06:34 PM
I'm on the verge of getting so annoyed that I'll go back and dig up all the various quotes and string them together in one long list of total BS.


OH, PLEASE DO!!!!

Justin Tyme
02-15-2010, 06:43 PM
Seth, I can't remember reading so many good enjoyable posts in one thread by the same poster. Thanks for the reading enjoyment!