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BPump33
02-11-2010, 02:06 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4905746

Updated: February 11, 2010, 1:57 PM ET
Fans asked to hang with 18-win PacersComment Email Print Share Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS -- Pacers president Larry Bird is urging fans to remain patient through the team's struggles.

Indiana enters the All-Star break with an 18-34 record, well out of the playoff race after missing the postseason for the past three seasons. Last month, some players were openly wondering if their "weak-minded" defense could be righted and attendance woes have been a problem now for years, along with assorted off-the-court issues.

Yet Bird says the rebuilding phase that began when the Pacers traded Ron Artest in 2006 is on target, and will move into high gear after next season when the team gets salary cap space.

"We knew that we had to clean it out and rebuild it, and we knew we were going to go through some tough times," Bird told The Associated Press this week. "Nobody likes to lose, and everybody wants to be a part of a winner. We think we're on the right track to get there."

Bird also took the pressure off coach Jim O'Brien, who is in his third year after back-to-back 36-46 seasons. O'Brien signed a one-year extension last September to coach through the end of next season, and Bird said he is in no danger of being replaced.

"The one thing Jimmy bought into when he came here was that we were going to rebuild, and we were going to struggle at times," Bird said. "I always say the losses are on me because I want him to work these guys hard, develop the young guys we have and keep moving forward with what we have."

The Pacers have suffered through a series of injuries. Top scorer Danny Granger missed a month with a heel injury, center Jeff Foster is out for the season with a back injury, guard/forward Mike Dunleavy missed several weeks while recovering from knee surgery and rookie forward Tyler Hansbrough has missed the past month with an inner ear infection.

Healthy or not, Bird expected rough times.

"Even if we were healthy all year, I thought we could win 36 to 41 games with this team," he said. "In a rebuilding phase, which I think we're on track with, we'll just have to go forward with it."

Bird, whose résumé includes three NBA titles and three MVP awards with the Boston Celtics, said the Pacers still could play better.

"The one thing about this team is that we stand too much and we settle way too much for the outside shot," he said. "If we get to the hole and put the pressure on the defense, we're a lot better. When we stand and just take outside shots, we have a tendency to struggle."

Granger, an All Star last season, hasn't been quite as good this season. He's still averaging 22.4 points per game, but that's down more than three points from last season. He's also shooting four percent lower from the field.

Forward Troy Murphy has remained steady, despite trade rumors. He averages 14 points and 9.9 rebounds per game.

Part of the rebuilding process has led the Pacers to play younger players. O'Brien sat point guard T.J. Ford for 18 games while getting rookie A.J. Price some additional minutes.

"T.J. knows that I respect his game, and he knows how much I like him," Bird said. "It's unfortunate that they're in that situation, but at that time, we wanted to see if A.J. could play, and we know he can."

A bright spot has been second-year center Roy Hibbert. The 7-foot-2 Georgetown product has become a fan favorite with flashes of dominance. He's averaging 11.1 points and 5.9 rebounds per game, but that comes with 3.6 fouls every 24 minutes. He also sometimes struggles against quicker post players.

"With Roy, he's made great strides," Bird said. "He'll continue to get better because of his work ethic. He'll struggle at times, but I think in the long run, he'll be a very valuable player for us."

Second-year guard Brandon Rush has been inconsistent, but has shown potential. He's averaging 8.7 points and 4.1 rebounds. Hopes were high after he averaged 18.3 points and shot 55 percent from the field in the final 10 games last season.

Eventually, Bird said, the young core players will gain experience playing as a unit under O'Brien. Until then, he said, wins might not come as often as fans would like.

"Jimmy's done an excellent job of doing the things I want him to do," Bird said. "It won't show in wins and losses, but it will show in the long run."


Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press

Mr_Smith
02-11-2010, 02:09 PM
I've been patient since that November night of 2004 in Auburn Hills, MI. How much longer?!?!?!?!?

vnzla81
02-11-2010, 02:12 PM
blah blah blah blahhhhhhhhh.................:censored:

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 02:12 PM
evil, pure evil

able
02-11-2010, 02:12 PM
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead:

Peck
02-11-2010, 02:20 PM
Well at least he admits we are rebuilding.

Also I think this does make me consider more that there might have been some truth to that rumor that O'Brien said he could handle losing 50 games a season during his interview with Bird.

Also I think it's safe to say that Jim O'Brien will return as our coach next season.

Anthem
02-11-2010, 02:26 PM
Also I think it's safe to say that Jim O'Brien will return as our coach next season.
If Bird's committed to keeping Obie next year, then he needs to give him a roster that FORCES him to play the players that need PT.

In other words, that TJ/Troy for Ray Allen trade is looking better and better.

Putnam
02-11-2010, 02:29 PM
OK. I'll be patient.



.

dal9
02-11-2010, 02:31 PM
.

In other words, that TJ/Troy for Ray Allen trade is looking better and better.

say wha?

Roaming Gnome
02-11-2010, 02:31 PM
"Jimmy's done an excellent job of doing the things I want him to do. It won't show in wins and losses, but it will show in the long run."

http://www.jroller.com/MasterMark/resource/_21477BP~Looney-Tunes-Wile-E-Coyote-Posters2.jpg

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 02:32 PM
Well at least he admits we are rebuilding.

Also I think this does make me consider more that there might have been some truth to that rumor that O'Brien said he could handle losing 50 games a season during his interview with Bird.

Also I think it's safe to say that Jim O'Brien will return as our coach next season.
Not renewing my tickets.

Losing I was prepared for. Insanely mixed signals, excuses that Bird now claims are not needed (via more excuses), lack of player development at times, a nearly imperceptible direction of offensive style...

I'll watch 60 losses of Roy trying to become a good post player and accept that if Rush, Price, Josh and Tyler aren't getting it then they aren't getting it and we need new players.

But how in the heck are they supposed to be good enough next year if they aren't developing now?



Go ahead, draft Aldrich. I won't be going to games anyway.

Will Galen
02-11-2010, 02:37 PM
Really nothing new here.

I know most of you don't like losing. As Bird said, no one does. You want your GM to do something magical, but that doesn't happen without assets. The only faster way to rebuild assets is to get lucky in the draft.

The bottom line is we will be one of the up and coming teams everyone points to at the end of next season. All we have to do is be patient like Bird said.

Dr. Goldfoot
02-11-2010, 02:42 PM
Yet Bird says the rebuilding phase that began when the Pacers traded Ron Artest in 2006 is on target, and will move into high gear after next season when the team gets salary cap space.



So things are really gonna get into high gear as we enter the 6th season of our three year rebuild?

vnzla81
02-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Im not going to any other game and Im done for the year unless they fire JOB

BillS
02-11-2010, 02:46 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4905746

"The one thing about this team is that we stand too much and we settle way too much for the outside shot," he said. "If we get to the hole and put the pressure on the defense, we're a lot better. When we stand and just take outside shots, we have a tendency to struggle."

I'd be happier with the whole thing if LJB could just tell me how he expects O'Brien to correct this.

pwee31
02-11-2010, 02:50 PM
in other news.....

graphic-er
02-11-2010, 02:51 PM
So things are really gonna get into high gear as we enter the 6th season of our three year rebuild?

I don't think you can call it a 6 year rebuild, up until the point we trade Jackson and Harrington away, we were still a playoff team. Bird thought we could remain a playoff team with the emergence of Granger, so he made tweaks here and there, and the Murphy/Dunleavy experiment fell flat on its face due to injuries. So we've only been rebuilding for about 3 years now.

Infinite MAN_force
02-11-2010, 02:53 PM
All I care about is youth develepment. If Bird is going to keep Obrien he better be sending standing orders of "Play the kids or its your ***". No more BS about Price going back to the bench. Find some PT for Mcbob while your at it.

I can only hope and pray that one of these trades goes down, and we lose one or both of TJ and Murphy, which will somewhat force obrien's hand.

graphic-er
02-11-2010, 02:55 PM
I'd also add to the main topic, I have no issue with what Bird says here, I knew after last year this team wasn't making the playoffs until the big contracts are gone, but when he says he is pleased with the way JOB developing the players; I simply throw up in my mouth. JOB does not have an offensive system that develops young players.

90'sNBARocked
02-11-2010, 02:55 PM
Go ahead, draft Aldrich. I won't be going to games anyway.[/QUOTE]

easy grasshopper, they still might draft Luke Harogdy(sp?) :bs:

90'sNBARocked
02-11-2010, 02:56 PM
Really nothing new here.

I know most of you don't like losing. As Bird said, no one does. You want your GM to do something magical, but that doesn't happen without assets. The only faster way to rebuild assets is to get lucky in the draft.

The bottom line is we will be one of the up and coming teams everyone points to at the end of next season. All we have to do is be patient like Bird said.

Not trying to be funny but was that meant to be in green? Or do you really believe so?

Dr. Goldfoot
02-11-2010, 02:57 PM
I don't think you can call it a 6 year rebuild, up until the point we trade Jackson and Harrington away, we were still a playoff team. Bird thought we could remain a playoff team with the emergence of Granger, so he made tweaks here and there, and the Murphy/Dunleavy experiment fell flat on its face due to injuries. So we've only been rebuilding for about 3 years now.

Bird's asking us to be patient until after next season. The beginning of the '11-'12 season. So.....

ChicagoJ
02-11-2010, 03:01 PM
All I care about is youth develepment. If Bird is going to keep Obrien he better be sending standing orders of "Play the kids or its your ***". No more BS about Price going back to the bench. Find some PT for Mcbob while your at it.

I can only hope and pray that one of these trades goes down, and we lose one or both of TJ and Murphy, which will somewhat force obrien's hand.

I've been there since the day JO was traded for a #1 and cap space.

Get rid of the vets and go young.

The trade deadline is a big event on the calendar.

I don't mind watching the young guys even if Jim is the coach. But to watch him coach with Ford and Murphy on the court just makes me ill.

bellisimo
02-11-2010, 03:07 PM
we are just gonna let the contracts expire - including JOB's...no trades - no change of coaches - just let it all ride out...Bird sounds like he is more of a stand pat guy than Walsh ever was...

pwee31
02-11-2010, 03:10 PM
I think we just all misunderstood Bird and O'Brien meaning of rebuilding and developing. You see most GMs and coaches use those terms when it comes to young players just getting use to the NBA.

Now Bird and O"brien on the other hand... they're ahead game... miles ahead of league thinking these days. While develop and rebuild young players, when you can do the same veteran players that already have the NBA experience

Think about it, it's so much easier, these guys have already been in the league for years, the teaching and coaching will be simple. Who cares if they don't execute or they're outmatched on the court. At least they know what they're suppose to be doing, they're just not very good at doing it. That's a lot better then taking the time to develop a young player who could be very good at, or perhaps is already better at it then some, but doesn't get the chance to show it.

I mean why waste time with potential, when you can just skip a couple steps and develop 6-10 year guys from other teams you pulled a fast one on

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 03:14 PM
:bs::bs::bs::bs:

He really likes TJ! :censored:

Bird just backed up Jimmy's comments about giving Price playing time to see what he had tripe. LOL!

More of Jimmy's done an excellent job :bs: Hey Bird I'm a "little older" than you, and I've heard :bs: from better people than you. How stupid do you think the Pacer fans are? 18-34 pretty much says it all. If you'd like less outside shooting, hum, maybe you should make sure it happens by getting involved with who works for you...Jimmy.


Herb said he was going to get more involved in running this franchise, well Herb don't you think it's about time to start? Replacing Bird would be a great 1st step in showing Pacer Land you truly meant what you said! If you think the fans didn't buy tickets this year wait until next year if you don't get rid of Bird and O'Brien. The fans will only stand for so much and the bottom is pretty near right now. Do you hear that echo, it's the echo a more empty Conseco next year??

McKeyFan
02-11-2010, 03:28 PM
I guess him coming out with this statement right now is a good indicator that he won't make a trade. No?

Will Galen
02-11-2010, 03:32 PM
I'd be happier with the whole thing if LJB could just tell me how he expects O'Brien to correct this.

Correct what? Only time and better players are going to correct the Pacers problems. Bird has given us a time line and asked us to be patient until then.

As is, until the players think they have a chance no one is going to get them to play better.

It would really help if we would start off a season with a healthy team, and not a half dozen new players.

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 03:45 PM
I guess him coming out with this statement right now is a good indicator that he won't make a trade. No?

No, not at all - no effect either way. Plus I think he spoke with the AP two days ago

I Love P
02-11-2010, 03:56 PM
I have a good feeling that no trade is going to be made. Hes going to wait til next deadline. I dont wanna wait another year!!! If we dont make a trade I hope we tank.

:mad:

vnzla81
02-11-2010, 03:58 PM
I have a good feeling that no trade is going to be made. Hes going to wait til next deadline. I dont wanna wait another year!!! If we dont make a trade I hope we tank.

:mad:

so what are they doing now?

cdash
02-11-2010, 04:09 PM
Wasn't this the same turkey that was hell bent on getting this team to the playoffs the last two years? Now he says he was expecting 36-41 wins with a fully healthy team? I know this is the East and it is reasonable to make the playoffs with records like that, but still, he knew this team wasn't going to be healthy. His words are flowing one way and his actions are flowing another. Sorry, I want him out.

BillS
02-11-2010, 04:27 PM
Correct what? Only time and better players are going to correct the Pacers problems. Bird has given us a time line and asked us to be patient until then.

As is, until the players think they have a chance no one is going to get them to play better.

It would really help if we would start off a season with a healthy team, and not a half dozen new players.

What, it takes better players to keep moving and try to make plays rather than settling for an outside shot?

Sorry, that ain't cutting it with me, because - upon occasion - they <i>do</i> move without the ball and get mid-range or to the rim.

There are many ways to get a team to play a different style, I just want to understand how Bird expects it to happen with this team. It's not like I think it will suddenly make us a contender, I just figure if Larry (as well as the majority of folks here) sees this as a problem, he should be telling someone to try to correct it. If he is telling someone to try to correct it and trusts them to do so, I'd like to understand how.

Shade
02-11-2010, 04:40 PM
I was already done with Jim.

But this:



"Jimmy's done an excellent job of doing the things I want him to do," Bird said. "It won't show in wins and losses, but it will show in the long run."

...makes me nearly done with Larry, as well.

avoidingtheclowns
02-11-2010, 04:45 PM
Have we really made it this far without a snarky "Bird is always asking for too much..." comment? Tsk tsk tsk...



I've been there since the day JO was traded for a #1 and cap space.

Get rid of the vets and go young.

The trade deadline is a big event on the calendar.

I don't mind watching the young guys even if Jim is the coach. But to watch him coach with Ford and Murphy on the court just makes me ill.

How do you reconcile wanting a youth-dominated lineup with listing Byron Scott as your top choice to replace Jimmy?

Sookie
02-11-2010, 05:05 PM
"The one thing Jimmy bought into when he came here was that we were going to rebuild, and we were going to struggle at times," Bird said. "I always say the losses are on me because I want him to work these guys hard, develop the young guys we have and keep moving forward with what we have."

Then actually play them, don't sit Roy for Murphy or AJ for TJ or Rush for Dun.

"T.J. knows that I respect his game, and he knows how much I like him," Bird said. "It's unfortunate that they're in that situation, but at that time, we wanted to see if A.J. could play, and we know he can."

It continues to sound like we're going to see TJ and Watson as our two PGs. Come on Larry, you know better.

Will Galen
02-11-2010, 05:19 PM
What, it takes better players to keep moving and try to make plays rather than settling for an outside shot?

Sorry, that ain't cutting it with me, because - upon occasion - they do move without the ball and get mid-range or to the rim.

There are many ways to get a team to play a different style, I just want to understand how Bird expects it to happen with this team. It's not like I think it will suddenly make us a contender, I just figure if Larry (as well as the majority of folks here) sees this as a problem, he should be telling someone to try to correct it. If he is telling someone to try to correct it and trusts them to do so, I'd like to understand how.

You're assuming Bird wants it corrected right now like you do. This season is lost, why correct it when you can get something out of it.

I think Bird see's this as a chance to get a high pick in the draft. Of course he's not going to tell us that though.

As for next year, we'll have to wait and see how we start out.

BillS
02-11-2010, 05:23 PM
You're assuming Bird wants it corrected right now like you do. This season is lost, why correct it when you can get something out of it.

Because you might lose more (in attendance) than you get (a chance at a chance for a big draft pick).

But that argument has happened in other places and will continue.

Bottom line for me is that I try to keep to a middle ground. I don't jump on the automatic "everything Bird says is BS" bandwagon. If, however,he's being truthful, I want to know how he expects to change the things he doesn't like. If he isn't or is being vague, I really would rather not have the topic touched on at all.

PacerGuy
02-11-2010, 05:46 PM
:talktothe "STOP, PLEASE STOP!!!" :talktothe
Please swallow this.... :chillpill... And Step away From the Ledge! :zip:

Now, lets review what was really said.
:reporter: The New News:


... :crickets: .....


That's right, NOTHING!

Seriously, what did you think L.Bird would say?

-We all thought we could win 37-41 games is all went right t/y. What did LB say to dispute that?

-We know we have no shot at winning till after the '11 season, so why would any other coach want to come here, esp. when there is no way our owner is going to pay another coach while still paying JO'B at the same time he is crying for help from the city. If the coach is staying (whether LB or any of us like it), then he HAS to support him. That is all he did.

-We are all acting like L.Bird is doing everything 100% HIS way, with no owner input. The Simons told LB to not let Tinsley ever dawn a Pacer uni or step foot in the building again - regardless of the outcome, & LB did. The owners also wanted to win while we rebuilt (like we were able to do for a long time previous), esp. because the playoffs bring in revenue, so LB has tried.

-We all must realize that we have not tanked before because we had too much talent to be that bad, & too long of contracts to do anything different. No one has been willing to bail us out, & LB does not have the NY?Dolan type resourses to do thing that others can.

-We all might want the youth to play more, but LB played out the 1st 1/3 of the yr. hoping for some magic, but when it did not happen we started playing AJ over TJ, and Rush has continued to play despite struggles.

-We need to be smart enough to see thru the smoke & know that his words of patience, to me it is a prelude to saying "we're about to get worse" (ala. we are about to trade vet talent for youth/ future cap).

Also, I listened to a good interview w/ D.Morway who spoke "optimisticly" of some trades happening before the deadline. He spoke that while they are some-what frustrated w/ Rush's inconsistency, they know he was similuar at Kansas his first 2 yrs, then expanded as he became a "vet" (w/ the implication that as Troy, Mike, TJ, Foster leave, Rush goes from "new guy" to team "vet", you will see him be more vocal/ charismatic). He did not get too indepth w/ JO'B, but you get the feel Jim is helping LB "tread water" till '11. IMO w/ different talent, you will see some style changes & focus.

Now, Seth, others, it this "Nothing News" really worth the pissing & moaning I've been reading? The "I quit, this is B.S." attidude :kickcan: .... Seriously guys.....
Remember, this is a business, & while you may see Larry as "the Man", the fact is he is an employee. He has orders & he knows things we don't. The one thing that he did not change, thus the reason I see no need to react is that we are still following "The 3 Year Plan". Nothing new there.

Will Galen
02-11-2010, 05:58 PM
:talktothe "STOP, PLEASE STOP!!!" :talktothe
Please swallow this.... :chillpill... And Step away From the Ledge! :zip:

Now, lets review what was really said.
:reporter: The New News:


... :crickets: .....


That's right, NOTHING!

Seriously, what did you think L.Bird would say?

-We all thought we could win 37-41 games is all went right t/y. What did LB say to dispute that?

-We know we have no shot at winning till after the '11 season, so why would any other coach want to come here, esp. when there is no way our owner is going to pay another coach while still paying JO'B at the same time he is crying for help from the city. If the coach is staying (whether LB or any of us like it), then he HAS to support him. That is all he did.

-We are all acting like L.Bird is doing everything 100% HIS way, with no owner input. The Simons told LB to not let Tinsley ever dawn a Pacer uni or step foot in the building again - regardless of the outcome, & LB did. The owners also wanted to win while we rebuilt (like we were able to do for a long time previous), esp. because the playoffs bring in revenue, so LB has tried.

-We all must realize that we have not tanked before because we had too much talent to be that bad, & too long of contracts to do anything different. No one has been willing to bail us out, & LB does not have the NY?Dolan type resourses to do thing that others can.

-We all might want the youth to play more, but LB played out the 1st 1/3 of the yr. hoping for some magic, but when it did not happen we started playing AJ over TJ, and Rush has continued to play despite struggles.

-We need to be smart enough to see thru the smoke & know that his words of patience, to me it is a prelude to saying "we're about to get worse" (ala. we are about to trade vet talent for youth/ future cap).

Also, I listened to a good interview w/ D.Morway who spoke "optimisticly" of some trades happening before the deadline. He spoke that while they are some-what frustrated w/ Rush's inconsistency, they know he was similuar at Kansas his first 2 yrs, then expanded as he became a "vet" (w/ the implication that as Troy, Mike, TJ, Foster leave, Rush goes from "new guy" to team "vet", you will see him be more vocal/ charismatic). He did not get too indepth w/ JO'B, but you get the feel Jim is helping LB "tread water" till '11. IMO w/ different talent, you will see some style changes & focus.

Now, Seth, others, it this "Nothing News" really worth the pissing & moaning I've been reading? The "I quit, this is B.S." attidude :kickcan: .... Seriously guys.....
Remember, this is a business, & while you may see Larry as "the Man", the fact is he is an employee. He has orders & he knows things we don't. The one thing that he did not change, thus the reason I see no need to react is that we are still following "The 3 Year Plan". Nothing new there.

AH! Someone with some common sense!

Bball
02-11-2010, 06:04 PM
No Will, you don't come out and tell a fanbase that is absolutely through with an awful coach (or who is now perceived as an awful coach) that he's your man.

You either keep quiet or make a real non-statement. Bird just went from me saying the jury is still out on him to saying he needs to be gone himself. I have no patience for this stuff because patience is what kills franchises.

Bird just squarely confirmed he's part of the mixed messages that O'Brien has been sending.

Fire them both.

Trophy
02-11-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm curious to hear David Morway's opinion.

Bird's statements are just outrageous.

Sookie
02-11-2010, 06:23 PM
-We need to be smart enough to see thru the smoke & know that his words of patience, to me it is a prelude to saying "we're about to get worse" (ala. we are about to trade vet talent for youth/ future cap).

Also, I listened to a good interview w/ D.Morway who spoke "optimisticly" of some trades happening before the deadline. He spoke that while they are some-what frustrated w/ Rush's inconsistency, they know he was similuar at Kansas his first 2 yrs, then expanded as he became a "vet" (w/ the implication that as Troy, Mike, TJ, Foster leave, Rush goes from "new guy" to team "vet", you will see him be more vocal/ charismatic). He did not get too indepth w/ JO'B, but you get the feel Jim is helping LB "tread water" till '11. IMO w/ different talent, you will see some style changes & focus.



Except losing the vets won't make us worse.
TJ...we'll get better.
Dun...we'll get better.
Murphy...thin in the front court, but I think if Hans is back..the combo of him and Tyler will be better.
In fact, losing Earl or DJones (obviously assuming Danny is off the table) would be about the only two players that would hurt the team. I've been questioning Earl a bit, considering Cleveland could use a point guard.


I also think Bird really really slights his fan base. If we were all watching a lineup of Price, Rush, Granger, Hans/McBob/Solo, Hibbert there wouldn't be much complaints. Fans would understand and look for positives. But when you throw TJ/Dun/DJones/Granger/Murphy on the floor..we get annoyed.

Thesterovic
02-11-2010, 06:27 PM
How long until someone starts a "if we don't make changes, i'm not watching/attending games anymore until JOBs fired and/or Troy and TJ are traded"? I'd be the first to cosign it. And now it's getting bad. Seth is on boat too with not resigning his season tickets. I'm sick of this franchise, its getting Memphis Grizzlies/Pittsburgh Pirates bad. We have a solid chance of trading a player that has a negative outcome in our wins and losses, for a player in Jason Thompson who dropped 25 on Murphy. And we're about to get a top 5 pick and draft a sad guy like Aldrich or Monroe because of their "experience".

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 06:36 PM
Correct what? Only time and better players are going to correct the Pacers problems. Bird has given us a time line and asked us to be patient until then.

As is, until the players think they have a chance no one is going to get them to play better.

It would really help if we would start off a season with a healthy team, and not a half dozen new players.
Go back 2 years and find Bird making a case for this timeline.

2 years ago we were still going to make the playoffs which is why he went for the players he did.

Why spend on Watson and Head and Jones this year if the team is just in a rebuild? Yes you need to fill out a roster, but there are cheaper "end of bench" guys than Head.

You could be developing Rush, Price and Josh more if you just didn't go add some of the more expensive vets. They aren't bank breakers, but the 21 year old kid out of the NBDL is even cheaper than that.


The moves made sense, but not in a 3 year plan way. They needed to IMPROVE the defense from last year, so they went after defensive players. Luther Head at the last second? Come on, that's got 3 point shooting guard written all over it, and rebuilding teams don't need that.

Bird's plan is loaded with it's own amount of double talk, and frankly I think half of it was co-opted from here. A couple of years ago a lot of us were saying "playoffs? are you kidding? this is time to rebuild".

So he wants his cake and to eat it too. He gets to try for the postseason and then when that's a disaster it's suddenly "oh, didn't we tell you, this is all part of the 3 year plan".

What, forcing Dunleavy to gimp out there night after night when he's not up to game shape and trying to rehab from a long term injury is part of the rebuild?

TJ to the bench, then back starting is rebuilding?



It's got all the makings of people in charge NOT having a vision and flip flopping from idea to idea as the market kills off their dreams. I get that they wanted to trade TJ and got stuck, but it feels like in many ways they were surprised by this turn of events and reacted late to it.

The same with Troy now.



I'm with McKeyFan, patience is code for "no trades at the deadline".

d_c
02-11-2010, 06:48 PM
I'm curious to hear David Morway's opinion.

Bird's statements are just outrageous.

Bird is Morway's boss. It's unlikely you're going to hear anything different out of his mouth, even if he does feel differently.

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 06:51 PM
Guys, I'm saying IF, IF, IF JOB is still coach, then I'm walking away next year.

Why shouldn't I believe he will be? Bird isn't responding to my question about it. It's the middle of the week in the middle of a who cares season, I didn't need a status update nor begging for a "patience handout".

So we get this kind of statement on top of some of the really annoying mixed crap from JOB and it isn't helping my mood. At this point the best thing TPTB can do is just shut it because they are only making it worse.


We know we have no shot at winning till after the '11 season,I disagree. There was no good reason for the team to be worse this year or next. Playoff level, maybe not, but I was predicting much more dire outcomes in the first 2 JOB years than I was this one. Rush and Roy were further along, Dun was returning with a real operation, apparently I was missing the boat on a nice impact draft pick, Price showed great stuff in summer and JOB showed a lot of love for the low post game...

The untradable guys were going to be more tradeable this year, and definitely this summer as expirings, so you would develop the kids so they'd be ready to take a big step forward when Troy or Dun were traded in June for quality vet with a longer deal, say a Devin Harris just for kicks.

I've NEVER bought into some "you must wait till TJ, Dun and Troy expire before you can improve". I bought into their value with shorter deals than the players you'd get back when another team dumped salary.

If they are this bad next year then the plan is F'd up because that's FOUR YEARS with JOB....AND you started this rebuild when you did the GSW trade. I mean this whole thing of having to move the guys people didn't want was Jackson more than anything.

So this 3 year plan starting in YEAR TWO of JOB's run is crap. Bird is talking about a 5 year plan and he spent those first 2-3 years of it telling us he wasn't doing it.


In short, I repeat that I didn't think they had no shot at being over .500 next year, nor did I think if JOB lost a ton of games this year that he'd return. I thought his very modest benchmark was about 36-38 wins.


I also think Bird really really slights his fan base. If we were all watching a lineup of Price, Rush, Granger, Hans/McBob/Solo, Hibbert there wouldn't be much complaints. Fans would understand and look for positives. But when you throw TJ/Dun/DJones/Granger/Murphy on the floor..we get annoyed.Exactly. This isn't even close, and I hate this crap where you guys defend him by muddling this point. We DON'T CARE ABOUT WINS. We don't. That part we get.

We want development and direction, we want to see the vision taking shape. The Thunder had direction while losing. Imagine Durant and Green sitting on the bench behind guys like Collison and Watson. Yes, Watson, moved to the bench so Westbrook could start. The younger guys getting 36 a night while those older players saw 26 minutes.

Contrast this with RASHO getting more playing time total, and per game, than Roy Hibbert. I mean that's not even Troy, Roy is behind the dude you got simply to reduce JO's contract sooner. That's last year, the "good" year. That's NOT the OKC plan, that's not developing your future core roster.


-We all might want the youth to play more, but LB played out the 1st 1/3 of the yr. hoping for some magic, but when it did not happen we started playing AJ over TJ, and Rush has continued to play despite struggles.First off, you aren't helping the case that Bird knows what he's doing and has a plan. That's "hey, I'll play roulette for 2 hours and see if I can parlay this $100 into $1000, then if I lose that I'll consider just getting a job to make some money".

Second, there is "Rush continuing to play" and Rush continuing to play. Rush has been thrown under the bus by JOB, he's been shuffled all over the rotation, and it's been similar for the other young players too.

This isn't JOB and Bird coming to us and telling us to stop being frustrated with the kids. WE'RE THE ONES sticking up for the young talent, they're the ones trashing out their own guys. It's upside down and stupid. Bird and JOB should have been the ones saying "I know it looks rough some nights, but I'll get these kids up to snuff by the time we are capable of making a real run, we're growing as a team and we hope you appreciate that."

That should have come LAST YEAR in fact, and we all would have been on board with it because we all knew the bottom line.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2010, 06:51 PM
Why spend on Watson and Head and Jones this year if the team is just in a rebuild? Yes you need to fill out a roster, but there are cheaper "end of bench" guys than Head.

Word.


So he wants his cake and to eat it too. He gets to try for the postseason and then when that's a disaster it's suddenly "oh, didn't we tell you, this is all part of the 3 year plan".

WORD!

BlueNGold
02-11-2010, 06:57 PM
No Will, you don't come out and tell a fanbase that is absolutely through with an awful coach (or who is now perceived as an awful coach) that he's your man.

You either keep quiet or make a real non-statement. Bird just went from me saying the jury is still out on him to saying he needs to be gone himself. I have no patience for this stuff because patience is what kills franchises.

Bird just squarely confirmed he's part of the mixed messages that O'Brien has been sending.

Fire them both.

Agreed. Bird's used up most of his Indiana Legend rope IMO. He better not adopt that mixed message persona too...or people will be calling for his head in a matter of months.

BlueNGold
02-11-2010, 07:01 PM
I'm with McKeyFan, patience is code for "no trades at the deadline".

Good post, but this part I'm not so sure about. I may be giving Bird too much credit...but the patience stuff may be posturing...words for the Cavs to hear....and think exactly that....that Bird is ready to walk away from the table. Classic negotiating ploy.

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 07:12 PM
"The one thing Jimmy bought into when he came here was that we were going to rebuild, and we were going to struggle at times," Bird said. "I always say the losses are on me because I want him to work these guys hard, develop the young guys we have and keep moving forward with what we have."

Then actually play them, don't sit Roy for Murphy or AJ for TJ or Rush for Dun.

"T.J. knows that I respect his game, and he knows how much I like him," Bird said. "It's unfortunate that they're in that situation, but at that time, we wanted to see if A.J. could play, and we know he can."

It continues to sound like we're going to see TJ and Watson as our two PGs. Come on Larry, you know better.
Part 1, again the RASHO stat vs Roy.

Part 2, you know he can play and therefore you aren't going to let him play why again.....???

Hey, I found out that Reggie can hit some 3s, so now that we know that we are going to have him stop shooting those and let John Long do all the 3pt shooting because he's not that bad and won't be here next year.


Good, sound logic. Really the way to improve a young core.


And let's get the links up to those first few pressers with Bird/JOB. Not a lot of "we know it's going to be development and losing, but Jim's on board with that". That is 100% BS. That's not what was said at all.

Will Galen
02-11-2010, 07:13 PM
No Will, you don't come out and tell a fanbase that is absolutely through with an awful coach (or who is now perceived as an awful coach) that he's your man.

YOU DO IF YOUR TANKING!

Larry Bird isn't going to come right out and say he's tanking, to me it's the obvious answer though.

WE'RE TANKING GUYS BE PATIENT!

Will Galen
02-11-2010, 07:15 PM
Go back 2 years and find Bird making a case for this timeline.

2 years ago we were still going to make the playoffs which is why he went for the players he did.

Why spend on Watson and Head and Jones this year if the team is just in a rebuild? Yes you need to fill out a roster, but there are cheaper "end of bench" guys than Head.

You could be developing Rush, Price and Josh more if you just didn't go add some of the more expensive vets. They aren't bank breakers, but the 21 year old kid out of the NBDL is even cheaper than that.


The moves made sense, but not in a 3 year plan way. They needed to IMPROVE the defense from last year, so they went after defensive players. Luther Head at the last second? Come on, that's got 3 point shooting guard written all over it, and rebuilding teams don't need that.

Bird's plan is loaded with it's own amount of double talk, and frankly I think half of it was co-opted from here. A couple of years ago a lot of us were saying "playoffs? are you kidding? this is time to rebuild".

So he wants his cake and to eat it too. He gets to try for the postseason and then when that's a disaster it's suddenly "oh, didn't we tell you, this is all part of the 3 year plan".

What, forcing Dunleavy to gimp out there night after night when he's not up to game shape and trying to rehab from a long term injury is part of the rebuild?

TJ to the bench, then back starting is rebuilding?



It's got all the makings of people in charge NOT having a vision and flip flopping from idea to idea as the market kills off their dreams. I get that they wanted to trade TJ and got stuck, but it feels like in many ways they were surprised by this turn of events and reacted late to it.

The same with Troy now.



I'm with McKeyFan, patience is code for "no trades at the deadline".
See post 39!

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 07:18 PM
Good post, but this part I'm not so sure about. I may be giving Bird too much credit...but the patience stuff may be posturing...words for the Cavs to hear....and think exactly that....that Bird is ready to walk away from the table. Classic negotiating ploy.
Well I do agree with you from all the other indicators. I've thought Troy to CLE was virtually a lock.

But when he pops up with this kind of stuff it worries me because he's used this strategy before, the preparation for let down angle.

He can't possibly think we are going to be let down with the Z/pick deal, and even less if it's Z/pick/player. We all know that's what's likely to happen and why and how it helps in the long term.

It would be different if we thought Troy was going to turn into Amare and then the deal started falling through. Then he'd have to prepare us.




One crazy caveat in all this - do any of us darksiders really feel like we know what the h*** is going on over at Conseco? So who knows, maybe some nutty deal is coming through or some shift in how the roster is handled in order to focus on development.

I don't think it will, but I wouldn't be surprised if Larry hired Artest to be the player/coach at this point.



See post 39!
What do you think I just spent 1000 words ranting about?

Thesterovic
02-11-2010, 07:21 PM
Another thing, Bird shouldn't be asking us for patience, he should be thanking us for our patience since 2004.

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 07:23 PM
Go ahead, draft Aldrich. I won't be going to games anyway.

easy grasshopper, they still might draft Luke Harogdy(sp?)
Harangody. Ooh, 2nd round pick FTW. Awesome.

Honestly, let's say he does draft those 2. Wouldn't the NAACP call for an investigation at that point? ;) :devil:

Zing...see, it's not all anger here, I can still find some laughs in there someplace

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 07:30 PM
Really nothing new here.

I know most of you don't like losing. As Bird said, no one does. You want your GM to do something magical, but that doesn't happen without assets. The only faster way to rebuild assets is to get lucky in the draft.

The bottom line is we will be one of the up and coming teams everyone points to at the end of next season. All we have to do is be patient like Bird said.
My post right before it...

Losing I was prepared for. Insanely mixed signals, excuses that Bird now claims are not needed (via more excuses), lack of player development at times, a nearly imperceptible direction of offensive style...This angle that the losing is bothering us is crap. There is no way someone could read at PD and think the main issue we have is with the losing. Tons of posters are saying the same things and they all involve the lack of commitment to development.

For chrissake, Buck is thanking you on this post and he's constantly up in arms with guys posting about being in favor of tanking. I'd say more people are upset that they aren't losing more than are upset that they aren't losing less.

We've been waiting for years for the rebuild to actually start. We are still waiting. Signing Head to play instead of AJ is not a rebuilding strategy. You just saw AJ play well in summer ball, you have some inkling of what you might have.

I haven't even mentioned not playing Josh, and that was all of last year too.

Sookie
02-11-2010, 07:32 PM
Well I do agree with you from all the other indicators. I've thought Troy to CLE was virtually a lock.

But when he pops up with this kind of stuff it worries me because he's used this strategy before, the preparation for let down angle.

He can't possibly think we are going to be let down with the Z/pick deal, and even less if it's Z/pick/player. We all know that's what's likely to happen and why and how it helps in the long term.

It would be different if we thought Troy was going to turn into Amare and then the deal started falling through. Then he'd have to prepare us.




One crazy caveat in all this - do any of us darksiders really feel like we know what the h*** is going on over at Conseco? So who knows, maybe some nutty deal is coming through or some shift in how the roster is handled in order to focus on development.

I don't think it will, but I wouldn't be surprised if Larry hired Artest to be the player/coach at this point.



What do you think I just spent 1000 words ranting about?

I'm really starting to wonder if Watson will be a part of the impending deal.

Cleveland needs a PG and they want Murphy. Wouldn't they probably want a steady proffessional PG like Watson? Perhaps adding Watson gives the Cavs more incentive to give us Hickson.

Watson is the one vet where it probably does hurt the team. JOB is now "forced" to play Price and Ford as the two PGs. We can argue Price vs. Watson..but there's no question that Watson is much better than Ford. And that Watson was a solid veteran leader on this team. His loss would hurt the team's performance.

It also makes sense for the Watson/Ford backcourt we had last game. Caution with Price's injury/Getting the team used to TJ/ showcasing Watson.

But then again..I'm thinking to logically for this organization.

GO!!!!!
02-11-2010, 07:53 PM
you what really surprised me... it said " Pacers have not made the playoffs in 3 years "

Holy crap has it really been that long... time has flown and that makes it more depressing, it'll be FOUR years this year... after a run of what 11 out of 12 years making the playoffs....

BlueNGold
02-11-2010, 07:59 PM
you what really surprised me... it said " Pacers have not made the playoffs in 3 years "

Holy crap has it really been that long... time has flown and that makes it more depressing, it'll be FOUR years this year... after a run of what 11 out of 12 years making the playoffs....

It seems like forever to me.

d_c
02-11-2010, 08:02 PM
you what really surprised me... it said " Pacers have not made the playoffs in 3 years "

Holy crap has it really been that long... time has flown and that makes it more depressing, it'll be FOUR years this year... after a run of what 11 out of 12 years making the playoffs....

Warriors missed the playoffs 12 years in a row. Murphy has missed it 8 years in a row (will be 9 unless traded to a playoff team).

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 08:23 PM
Agreed. Bird's used up most of his Indiana Legend rope IMO. He better not adopt that mixed message persona too...or people will be calling for his head in a matter of months.


I've been pointing it out from day1 that Bird isn't capble of running a sports franchise without running it aground! 2 and a half years at the helm with a record of 90-126 and every season he's been in charge has been a losing one.
With this being a season of regression. If your company was being run by someone with this record, they'd be fired. I don't want to hear be patient, b/c I tired of being patient with ineptness at the control.

Bird NEEDS to go or we'll be crying about how Bird botched the best draft chance the Pacers have had in the last 2 decades.

Bball
02-11-2010, 08:28 PM
YOU DO IF YOUR TANKING!

Larry Bird isn't going to come right out and say he's tanking, to me it's the obvious answer though.

WE'RE TANKING GUYS BE PATIENT!


This doesn't make sense. Why would you inflame the fanbase who'd like nothing more than see O'Brien fired this evening by saying that he's your man and not getting replaced?

Even if you buy the idea Bird is allowing O'Brien's bad coaching to tank the season, he doesn't have to come out in support of that bad coaching. That's totally insane.

Besides, you tank a season by developing the young players and let them learn on the court while you instill a system and let them learn the NBA game (and vice versa). You don't develop them with mixed messages and a spray and pray offense that is nothing but making for bad basketball habits that a real coach will have to work out of them.

Some of us have said we'd like the atmosphere at Conseco better if the lights were down in the seating sections. Well, we're going to get our wish because there will be no need to turn them on with nobody sitting in the seats.

People don't want to see bad basketball. It's not the losing. It's bad basketball. The core fans will sit thru a rebuild WHEN IT MAKES SENSE. This doesn't make sense. O'Brien preaches bad basketball. It's a waste of everyone's time. The players' time... the fans' time... management's time. Even O'Brien's time.

And Bird just endorsed it.

:bs:

Thesterovic
02-11-2010, 08:30 PM
I've been pointing it out from day1 that Bird isn't capble of running a sports franchise without running it aground! 2 and a half years at the helm with a record of 90-126 and every season he's been in charge has been a losing one.
With this being a season of regression. If your company was being run by someone with this record, they'd be fired. I don't want to hear be patient, b/c I tired of being patient with ineptness at the control.

Bird NEEDS to go or we'll be crying about how Bird botched the best draft chance the Pacers have had in the last 2 decades.

Dude, no offense, but youve been :deadhorse way too much.

BlueNGold
02-11-2010, 08:48 PM
I've been pointing it out from day1 that Bird isn't capble of running a sports franchise without running it aground! 2 and a half years at the helm with a record of 90-126 and every season he's been in charge has been a losing one.
With this being a season of regression. If your company was being run by someone with this record, they'd be fired. I don't want to hear be patient, b/c I tired of being patient with ineptness at the control.

Bird NEEDS to go or we'll be crying about how Bird botched the best draft chance the Pacers have had in the last 2 decades.

Like I said, he's used up his rope for the most part. However, I don't think he's made bad picks in the draft. Price was a steal. Hibbert was a very solid pick. Rush is still an unknown but could turn out to be very good. None of these guys are busts...and none have been getting busted. But yes, Bird needs to watch his mouth because he's sounding more like JOb. The worst thing about the last few years has been this double-speak. I cannot believe anything they say.

BTW, at least you can take what Bill Polian says to the bank...whether or not you agree with him.

docpaul
02-11-2010, 08:57 PM
I think you all might be misinterpreting the Bird "signal"... I don't believe that most casual fans would appreciate the significance of an expiring contract, and as most people are simple stat watchers, probably believe that Murphy is one of our better players.

That said, I think he's preparing the fan base for what might seem to most as an awful trade (Murphy for Z and Hickson ... and Z bought out soon thereafter)... but what more informed Pacer geeks know is the right thing to do at this time.

Get it done, Larry... get Murphy out of here.

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 09:01 PM
Dude, no offense, but youve been :deadhorse way too much.

I'm not offended about my feelings about Bird, but I am offended about being addressed as dude. You're not sonny, and I'm sure not dude!

pacergod2
02-11-2010, 09:05 PM
I've been pointing it out from day1 that Bird isn't capble of running a sports franchise without running it aground! 2 and a half years at the helm with a record of 90-126 and every season he's been in charge has been a losing one.
With this being a season of regression. If your company was being run by someone with this record, they'd be fired. I don't want to hear be patient, b/c I tired of being patient with ineptness at the control.

Bird NEEDS to go or we'll be crying about how Bird botched the best draft chance the Pacers have had in the last 2 decades.

Dude... when you have been dealt a hand of all short straws, you won't have much success. He doesn't have a magic wand to make teams trade their good players for our **** players with huge contracts. Ease up. I think he has made very good decisions based on the circumstances. You just are ignoring the circumstances and are looking for big, it happened yesterday, wholesale changes that aren't at all possible. Bird and Morway have done an excellent job with what they were given. So quit being so short-sighted. I only wish that Bird would tell JOB who to use in his rotations. He probably will once the deadline has passed... if not, there will be room for more displeasure if we continue to see bad, older veterans stealing minutes from the potential of our roster.

JT not trying to be offensive, but I just think that you are not looking at the big picture. If we had leverage or financial flexibility to do ANYTHING with, we would have. But we haven't. Life's a bi**h and sometimes you have to just endure. I think Bird hits home runs with his upcoming draft picks.

pacergod2
02-11-2010, 09:09 PM
PS- I had to call you dude. Oh and I think that if anything Bird has been the one telling the truth. He is almost too truthful to a fault IMO. It is JOB that you can't take a word that he says as truth. I feel like he is a mobster with that hair cut and he is just a greased back liar who just says what he thinks you want to hear that second and forgets it five minutes later. I am not giving Larry the "Legend" treatment here either. I think it is JOB who you can't believe.

gph
02-11-2010, 09:13 PM
No idea why the Cavs trade talks on here involve Z.

They would more than likely just use Wally world. Now-THAT could be why Bird was chumming the patience waters-because the casual fan will want to know why we traded for a mediocre guy that has been out this season coming off knee surgery, a spare part, and a first. (assuming we do unload TJ or Watson in the deal and get a first)

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 09:34 PM
PS- I had to call you dude.


Ok, SONNY!

PacerGuy
02-11-2010, 09:48 PM
Can we PLEASE get all the JO"B Haters to STFU!!!

Seriously.....
-Dude isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
-Dude will soon have a different team to coach (post Murh trade - YES, it WILL happen!).
-Dude is doing the best w/ what he has. His job is to try & win NOW, not for another coach/ another yr.
-This is what our owners have signed off on - our "3 Yr. Plan", Like it or not!
-Hate the "Situation", (not the players, coach - or GM) - Hate the "Situation"!!!

We are all PACER Fans, the all this negativity is just B.S.
Losing is bad enough, but "Quiting", "B*tching", & being "Hateful" is just too much, day after day...

MagicRat
02-11-2010, 10:09 PM
Just a little patience....yea-aaaaah......
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/birdpatience.jpg

PacerGuy
02-11-2010, 10:14 PM
Just a little patience....yea-aaaaah......
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/birdpatience.jpg
Thanks!
I needed that - IMO so do many here....
I laughed out loud!!! Too good. MR, you are the C&P King!!!
(Scary thing is, he looks good - in a Wayne's World sorta way)

BlueNGold
02-11-2010, 10:16 PM
That's awesome. Maybe we could trade Murphy for Axl Rose...?

Anthem
02-11-2010, 11:51 PM
Part 2, you know he can play and therefore you aren't going to let him play why again.....???

Hey, I found out that Reggie can hit some 3s, so now that we know that we are going to have him stop shooting those and let John Long do all the 3pt shooting because he's not that bad and won't be here next year.
Obie hasn't said that AJ is permanently back to third string, right? He said he was third for last night, but I'm still hopeful that he's just protecting him from the concussion.

Sookie
02-11-2010, 11:58 PM
Obie hasn't said that AJ is permanently back to third string, right? He said he was third for last night, but I'm still hopeful that he's just protecting him from the concussion.

Apparently AJ didn't technically have a concussion, just "extreme trauma to the eye"

It still wouldn't be a bad call to be cautious. I just wish Obie had said that. But instead we get articles from Wells, and comments from Obie suggesting that they "spent five weeks on him, know what they have..and now TJ can get his spot back"

That thought process really makes no sense. And I hope that one game was just for trade bait. But it won't shock me if AJ is permanantly benched.

Basketball Fan
02-12-2010, 12:27 AM
All this tells me is that Bird is feeling the heat by asking this he knows the Colts (the underacheivers they are in the postseason) are the hottest ticket in town. And really the Pacers don't register anymore. Obviously he can't compete with that so he's stalling.

Of course its pretty obvious and most of us accept that the Pacers aren't going to be anything worthwhile in the near future.

Mourning
02-12-2010, 01:08 AM
Bird states we started rebuilding in 2006. I wish that were so! We had to go that BS retooling period, to which I was opposed, first, which cost us a lot of time. Only after that were we starting to rebuild.

Hoop
02-12-2010, 01:09 AM
Can we PLEASE get all the JO"B Haters to STFU!!!

Seriously.....
-Dude isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
-Dude will soon have a different team to coach (post Murh trade - YES, it WILL happen!).
-Dude is doing the best w/ what he has. His job is to try & win NOW, not for another coach/ another yr.
-This is what our owners have signed off on - our "3 Yr. Plan", Like it or not!
-Hate the "Situation", (not the players, coach - or GM) - Hate the "Situation"!!!

We are all PACER Fans, the all this negativity is just B.S.
Losing is bad enough, but "Quiting", "B*tching", & being "Hateful" is just too much, day after day...

You're a real laugh riot dude, you're b*tching at people and telling them how they should feel and to STFU because you don't like the b*tching. :hmm:

I'll "hate" the coach as much as I want and will continue to b*tch about him till the day he is gone.

I'm pretty tired of people telling me and the rest of the "haters" how we should feel and what kind of fans we should be. I've only missed around 25 home games in 23 years. I know exactly how the ***** I feel.

cdash
02-12-2010, 01:25 AM
Yeah, that's getting edited, but I got my thanks in already. Nicely put Hoop.

pianoman
02-12-2010, 01:37 AM
I'll trade him my patience for the guaranteed contract of Jim O' Fired at the end of the season Brien

RamBo_Lamar
02-12-2010, 06:47 AM
You're a real laugh riot dude, you're b*tching at people and telling them how they should feel and to STFU because you don't like the b*tching. :hmm:

I'll "hate" the coach as much as I want and will continue to b*tch about him till the day he is gone.

I'm pretty tired of people telling me and the rest of the "haters" how we should feel and what kind of fans we should be. I've only missed around 25 home games in 23 years. I know exactly how the ***** I feel.


After seeing this, I went back and added a "THANK YOU" to PacerGuy's
post because he is absolutely right.

able
02-12-2010, 08:32 AM
yeah rambo, thought police if we change it right?

Well i agree with hoops, so there ya go.

On top of that I have not yet change4d my opinion that LB is the enemy, he wears green, he should not be where he is and most of all because he does not have what it takes.
Even his friends in Boston know that, that's why they were glad to see him go in the first year of his FO job.

LB is doing what i announced he would do when he came on board; running this franchise in the ground, so Herb will sell to LB and his friends who can then score big on a sale to their friends in LV. where LB can be honorary GM all the remaining days of his life.

I paid for LP broadband, I even booked tickets to Indy, but I let them go by and have not watched a game in weeks. (well not Pacers games)

LB's attitude and JOB being his lapdog is not doing what the Pacers need.

And I really am working at keeping it decent.

Unclebuck
02-12-2010, 09:11 AM
This thread predictably has gone off the rails.

We knew that this team wasn't really going to change until the summer of 2011, so whether you want to have patience or buy tickets between now and then that is up to you, but it was well known that this team wasn't going to get much better until summer of 2011

Speed
02-12-2010, 09:17 AM
I thought we drafted Tyler Hansbrough?

Ballerzfan
02-12-2010, 09:17 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4905746



"The one thing about this team is that we stand too much and we settle way too much for the outside shot," he said. "If we get to the hole and put the pressure on the defense, we're a lot better. When we stand and just take outside shots, we have a tendency to struggle."


Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press

Please someone give a copy of this part of the article to JOB...

Unclebuck
02-12-2010, 09:35 AM
Please someone give a copy of this part of the article to JOB...

JOB knows that this a major problem as he has talked about it being a problem a lot. The issue isn't whether JOB knows there is a problem, but his efforts to rectify the problem for the most part hasn't worked

El Pacero
02-12-2010, 09:37 AM
I'm going to be optimistic and guess that Bird is throwing this out there so other teams think we're OK without a trade. This isn't for the fans. It seems like every time there is a trade, he goes out of his way to say the exact opposite of what his intentions are. Perfect timing with All Star Break, mid season, trade deadline and interest in Murphy. sneaky bird...

Hicks
02-12-2010, 09:45 AM
I want to attempt to find a logical explanation for this. How does Larry Bird say "The one thing about this team is that we stand too much and we settle way too much for the outside shot," he said. "If we get to the hole and put the pressure on the defense, we're a lot better. When we stand and just take outside shots, we have a tendency to struggle."

But then says "Jimmy's done an excellent job of doing the things I want him to do,"

I don't get it.

I realize that if you pay attention, O'Brien wants to attack first, and if you can't, you're supposed to reverse the ball and move. So philosophically, Larry would be correct.

But here's the problem: It's not happening. So the question becomes: Whose responsibility is it to CHANGE that?

My answer would be that the players should do what they're coached first, then if not the coach has to figure out a way to get through to the players to where they DO start doing what he's coaching, and then if nothing works you either get another coach, or get new players.

So the only way this can make sense to me is Larry believes that it's some of the players that need to go, but the amount of roster change it would take to clean out the malcontents isn't currently realistic without getting hosed in a trade. Maybe Jim's not doing anything fire-worthy, but it's some of the players who were too *insert issue here* to deal with the situation, so they quit on Jim.

If Bird sincerely likes what Jim is doing, feels that Jim has done nothing egregious (in terms of something fire-worthy), and feels that the real problem is some of the players, which is what's causing the offense to nose-dive from last year, then in that scenario I can understand supporting O'Brien.

Think about it: As frustrated as most or all of us are, our problem last year wasn't the offense, but now it is. Even with some of the same players, the offense is just not up to snuff compared to last year. Our defensive FG percentages are actually not bad at all. If you look at the stats, our offense hurts us more than our defense, and it's not close.

I'm not ready to preach this from the mountain tops, but it's the only way this (outwardly) makes sense.

PacerGuy
02-12-2010, 10:28 AM
So the only way this can make sense to me is Larry believes that it's some of the players that need to go, but the amount of roster change it would take to clean out the malcontents isn't currently realistic without getting hosed in a trade. Maybe Jim's not doing anything fire-worthy, but it's some of the players who were too *insert issue here* to deal with the situation, so they quit on Jim.

If Bird sincerely likes what Jim is doing, feels that Jim has done nothing egregious (in terms of something fire-worthy), and feels that the real problem is some of the players, which is what's causing the offense to nose-dive from last year, then in that scenario I can understand supporting O'Brien.

Think about it: As frustrated as most or all of us are, our problem last year wasn't the offense, but now it is. Even with some of the same players, the offense is just not up to snuff compared to last year. Our defensive FG percentages are actually not bad at all. If you look at the stats, our offense hurts us more than our defense, and it's not close.

I'm not ready to preach this from the mountain tops, but it's the only way this (outwardly) makes sense.

I agree this is largely a PLAYER issue that JO'B & LB are dealing with (on top of the system fit of course). The vets on this team all have let their own situations affect the chemistry of this team. Lets look at each one:

-Danny: No 2 ways of putting it, Danny has regressed. Injury is a big part, as w/ a bad knee & then a bad heal, driving to the basket & playing D is not high on his list. He has allowed himseld to become nothing more then a 6'9 . SGI have seen much more frustration from him (boardering on an attitude issue at times) & I have not seen any evidence of his post game or D that he was supposibly working on this summer. IMO Danny sees this as a waisted season & is pouting like a child and is not leading our youth.

-Murph: Struggled early, is not a fit w/ Roy on the floor, has become message board & sports raido version of the Pacers H1N1 virus. He knows he's not wanted by the fans & the team will move him at the first good deal. Hearing rumors of going to Cle is like taunting a 6 yr old about Christmas comming at the first of November - longest 2 months of ones life!

-Dun: Injury / Rehab / Setback / Rehab / Poor Play. Dun has had many tough emotions to deal w/ in the last +/-12 months. He is not the player he was 2 yrs ago - his career best, & I'm sure it's killing him. He is not a starter & is struggling finding a role. Also consider he has never played on a team in his entire NBA career w/o T.Murph, & hearing that Troy is headed out -to a top seed no less - while he stays here playing for lottery balls has to bother him some.

-TJ: Struggled huge out of the gate, a continuation from struggles he displayed l/y. He could not/ would not adapt to what the team asked him to do so he was demoted. TJ's demotion likely affected other vets as they started to see for the first time the "Youth Movement" begin. I have not heard TJ being disruptive, but can't imagine the private, off the court/ out of the locker room discussions are all that positive. IMO this has likely caused a vet vs. youth divide in the locker room.
*(IMO, this is where Danny - part of both sets should step up, but likely has not)

The first 1/3 of the season we tinkered w/ trying to win, the second 1/3 we have gone more towards youth, but have also tried to win. IMO we WILL make some moves at the deadline. I feel very strongly that Murph is gone, & heis absence alone will force JO'B to be less perimeter-focused. I get that feel w/ Larry's comments w/o calling out JO'B. I honestly think the last 1/3 of the season you will notice changes. Not a new coach, but some system, rotation, & effort changes. Give it some time - Let the trade deadline come & go & see what we do. Then, give it a few weeks. If you still want to jump then... then JUMP!

JayRedd
02-12-2010, 10:50 AM
I want to attempt to find a logical explanation for this. How does Larry Bird say "The one thing about this team is that we stand too much and we settle way too much for the outside shot," he said. "If we get to the hole and put the pressure on the defense, we're a lot better. When we stand and just take outside shots, we have a tendency to struggle."

But then says "Jimmy's done an excellent job of doing the things I want him to do,"

I don't get it.

I realize that if you pay attention, O'Brien wants to attack first, and if you can't, you're supposed to reverse the ball and move. So philosophically, Larry would be correct.

But here's the problem: It's not happening. So the question becomes: Whose responsibility is it to CHANGE that?

My answer would be that the players should do what they're coached first, then if not the coach has to figure out a way to get through to the players to where they DO start doing what he's coaching, and then if nothing works you either get another coach, or get new players.

So the only way this can make sense to me is Larry believes that it's some of the players that need to go, but the amount of roster change it would take to clean out the malcontents isn't currently realistic without getting hosed in a trade. Maybe Jim's not doing anything fire-worthy, but it's some of the players who were too *insert issue here* to deal with the situation, so they quit on Jim.

If Bird sincerely likes what Jim is doing, feels that Jim has done nothing egregious (in terms of something fire-worthy), and feels that the real problem is some of the players, which is what's causing the offense to nose-dive from last year, then in that scenario I can understand supporting O'Brien.

Think about it: As frustrated as most or all of us are, our problem last year wasn't the offense, but now it is. Even with some of the same players, the offense is just not up to snuff compared to last year. Our defensive FG percentages are actually not bad at all. If you look at the stats, our offense hurts us more than our defense, and it's not close.

I'm not ready to preach this from the mountain tops, but it's the only way this (outwardly) makes sense.

I'm not supportive of all the hare-brained rotation-tinkering Jimmy has done this year and I'm not even philosophically on board with him on all the three-point shooting ....

But, who on this team do you think is capable of penetrating?

Danny, sort of, but he's just not doing it this year out of what I presume to be (1) injuries, (2) frustration, and (3) general apathy.

TJ can get there but has trouble finishing, and also does a lot of other things that aren't good on the court.

AJ in spurts, but he's a rookie who makes a lot of mistakes in other areas of the offense. (Still, should probably be getting 15 mpg at least the rest of the year.)

Dahntay, barely and it's not like he has any vision to kick out or dump down if help comes. He's a bull in a China shop on the way to the rim and either shooting or picking up a charge.

Brandon, theoretically, but he doesn't for whatever reason. (I swear I've seen him rip a crossover and get to the rim at least four or five times in the past 130 games. Not sure why he doesn't think it's an effective basketball play.)

All that said, none of these guys are even like Flip Murray or Corey Maggette-level penetrators.

You can't really coach dribbling moves and teach professional players how to beat other professional players off the dribble. It's either a skill you learned when you were 12 and mastered in AAU or you didn't.

There's not a Jarrett Jack on this roster, as much as Dahntay's impression of a capable, successful penetrator for like 15 games in November was an interesting attempt to replace that.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2010, 11:13 AM
That's awesome. Maybe we could trade Murphy for Axl Rose...?

Axl's an Indiana boy, but I'm not sure he's a milk drinker.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2010, 11:16 AM
Dahntay, barely and it's not like he has any vision to kick out or dump down if help comes. He's a bull in a China shop on the way to the rim and either shooting or picking up a charge.

Overall a great post, but you left out "turnover" from the second sentence of the above paragraph. I'm sure it was an accidental oversight.

JayRedd
02-12-2010, 11:21 AM
Overall a great post, but you left out "turnover" from the second sentence of the above paragraph. I'm sure it was an accidental oversight.

Haha. It was definitely an accidental oversight. Forgot to first reference my "Dahntay Jones Driving to the Basket Flowchart."

/off to Photoshop to make a flowchart

CableKC
02-12-2010, 12:02 PM
<< Rant - ON >>

If I were a regular Season Ticket Holder, I saw this response from Bird and I knew that we'd essentially be seeing the same "product" that we have been watching for the last 1.5 seasons.....the choice for me would be simple for me....I wouldn't renew my Season Tickets for the 2010-2011 season.

If I were in Indy....I'd exercize my patience by not paying for NBA LP ( unless I actually wanted to pay attention to some other "up and coming" Team play ), I wouldn't spend the $$$ to go to a game ( unless it was "rock bottom" prices for Lower Bowl seats ) and I'd simply stay at home watch Pacers game on Local TV for Free.

Going into the Offseason, as a Pacer fan that can only see games on NBA LP....I'm going to have to seriously debate whether I purchase it again for the 2010-2011 season. Before I got NBA LP, I hated hearing and seeing the Pacers lose games on SportsCenter....now I have the option to watch every game the Pacers play and lose...which royally sucks.

Simply put, I ( and I'd guess many people in Indiana ) wouldn't have the $$$ to waste on a Team where we will likely see the same "product" that we have seen for the last 2 seasons.

The only way that I'd probably consider it is if we get really lucky and somehow draft a "Tyreke Evans"-type impact Player ( as in a Top Lottery Pick in the draft that brings some serious excitement to the team like the way Tyreke brought to the Kings ), JO'B is no longer our Coach and/or we make some significant change to the roster of the Team. I knew that we'd essentially have to wait until the 2011-2012 season to really start rebuilding the Team...and I'd be patient ( cuz I know that the options we have to improve the team were limited )....but I didn't think it would be this bad....I'd think that after 1.5 seasons.....we'd have improved ( to some minimal degree ) in some fashion. We haven't....in fact....I think it's pretty obvious that we haven't. As PacerGuy was trying to say....I'm irritated by the situation ( which is compounded by the Coach's stubbornness ) and the mere fact that we haven't really improved it over the last 1.5 seasons.

<< Rant - OFF >>

I don't know if it was brought up yet....but with the "rumors" ramping up and me putting on my "conspiracy" hat....does anyone else get the sense that Bird is asking us to be "patient" because he's working to make a trade soon?

Brad8888
02-12-2010, 12:16 PM
Eventually, Bird said, the young core players will gain experience playing as a unit under O'Brien. Until then, he said, wins might not come as often as fans would like.

Amazing. Bird acknowledges that the young guys playing as a unit (assuming this was what he actually said) would win more games than what FO'B has been doing by not playing the young guys together as a unit, but yet Bird strongly supports FO'B and endorses what has been going on.

Smells like an admission of tanking, but if so, they are going about it all wrong.

Bird will likely, and should, fall on his sword and leave at the end of the season. He has no contract after this season anyway. Then, whoever steps in actually does the right thing and gets credit for firing FO'B and beginning the process of righting the ship. That is unless the negotiations with the CIB go badly and/or the fight about Mel Simon's estate (isn't his daughter contesting it?) and possibly the IRS valuation of the franchise as a portion of the estate, as well as the rest of it (poor performance yields lower valuation up to a point 9 months after date of death, the alternate valuation date for estate tax purposes, but only if the IRS agrees with the final valuations) result in such a strain on the Simon's financially from an estate tax standpoint that they simply cannot swing supporting the Pacers for at least 2 or 3 years at this point until winning brings the fans back (which is nearly always a mantra).

d_c
02-12-2010, 12:18 PM
I want to attempt to find a logical explanation for this. How does Larry Bird say "The one thing about this team is that we stand too much and we settle way too much for the outside shot," he said. "If we get to the hole and put the pressure on the defense, we're a lot better. When we stand and just take outside shots, we have a tendency to struggle."

But then says "Jimmy's done an excellent job of doing the things I want him to do,"

I don't get it.


As JayRedd pointed out, this roster simply doesn't have the personnel to consistently get to the hole, particularly in the half court set.

You can preach and teach all you want to your players about trying to do that, but if they don't have the talent and athleticism to play that way the only way to change that is to bring in players with that ability.

Hicks
02-12-2010, 12:33 PM
They may not be able to attack often, but that doesn't excuse at least making an attempt, or at least starting to only to back off if the defense is set. Much more damning is when they don't do step 2 of the offense when the attack isn't there: Reversing the ball and moving. There's no excuse for failing to do that. The offense doesn't fall apart just because the drive isn't there. It falls apart because of the lack of ball reversals, making other passes, and moving away from the ball. Every one of them should and could be doing that. That is on them.

Peck
02-12-2010, 12:38 PM
I'm not supportive of all the hare-brained rotation-tinkering Jimmy has done this year and I'm not even philosophically on board with him on all the three-point shooting ....

But, who on this team do you think is capable of penetrating?

Danny, sort of, but he's just not doing it this year out of what I presume to be (1) injuries, (2) frustration, and (3) general apathy.

TJ can get there but has trouble finishing, and also does a lot of other things that aren't good on the court.

AJ in spurts, but he's a rookie who makes a lot of mistakes in other areas of the offense. (Still, should probably be getting 15 mpg at least the rest of the year.)

Dahntay, barely and it's not like he has any vision to kick out or dump down if help comes. He's a bull in a China shop on the way to the rim and either shooting or picking up a charge.

Brandon, theoretically, but he doesn't for whatever reason. (I swear I've seen him rip a crossover and get to the rim at least four or five times in the past 130 games. Not sure why he doesn't think it's an effective basketball play.)

All that said, none of these guys are even like Flip Murray or Corey Maggette-level penetrators.

You can't really coach dribbling moves and teach professional players how to beat other professional players off the dribble. It's either a skill you learned when you were 12 and mastered in AAU or you didn't.

There's not a Jarrett Jack on this roster, as much as Dahntay's impression of a capable, successful penetrator for like 15 games in November was an interesting attempt to replace that.

I agree with everything you are saying, however....(you knew there would be a however)

O'Brien's system depends greatly (if not solely) on spacing and player movement to creat open lanes to the basket.

While this works, as long as teams just don't drop into a 2-3 zone or play very very close man to man defense) wouldn't it be beneficial every now and then to set some off the ball picks or screens?

Now obviously I have not watched every player on every play this season but I just really can't think of very many times that we have a person cutting through the lane or in traffic that does not have the ball that gets the benefit of an off the ball pick to help open up the lane any more for them.

Now this does not mean pick and rolls or pick and pops or whatever you want to call them, I'm talking about off the ball movement.

Also I do have somewhat of a hard time wondering about his player movement issue when both Troy Murphy and Brandon Rush have designated spots on the floor that they run to and do not move from until the clock is winding down. I am not sure if that is by design or if they are not following Jim's instructions. I don't see him yelling at them to move when they are there so I almost have to believe it is by design.

But you do make valid points in your post as well, we do not have good penetrators.

Peck
02-12-2010, 12:40 PM
They may not be able to attack often, but that doesn't excuse at least making an attempt, or at least starting to only to back off if the defense is set. Much more damning is when they don't do step 2 of the offense when the attack isn't there: Reversing the ball and moving. There's no excuse for failing to do that. The offense doesn't fall apart just because the drive isn't there. It falls apart because of the lack of ball reversals, making other passes, and moving away from the ball. Every one of them should and could be doing that. That is on them.

I've asked this before in other threads and I'll ask it again here.

At what point in time though does it stop being on them and start being on the people directing them?

Hicks
02-12-2010, 01:05 PM
I've asked this before in other threads and I'll ask it again here.

At what point in time though does it stop being on them and start being on the people directing them?

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

McKeyFan
02-12-2010, 01:19 PM
You can sit his @ss on the bench.

Peck
02-12-2010, 01:21 PM
If you lead the same horse to the same water time after time but you let your other horses die of dehdration because they have never had a chance to get water, is it then on the guide?

CableKC
02-12-2010, 01:32 PM
I'm going to say that it's probably a confluence of Players, Coach and Bird that has left us where we are now.......specifically....everyone is to blame for the situation.

I agree that it's very possible that it's the Players that aren't doing whatever they should be doing and not listening to their Coach ( assuming that he's actually discouraging them from not doing this in the first Place ) and therefore causing the System to fail in the first place.

But then you could argue that it's also the Coach's fault for not taking the necessary steps to rectify this ( which he can easily do by benching Players for not following what he......hopefully...is preaching in practice ) and ( ultimately ) Bird for watching this mess brew without stepping in to fix it ( which we have no clue as to whether he has tried to do this behind the scenes or not ).

The good thing is that this whole mess can be solved by any one of these groups deciding to step in and actually do something to rectify this....the problem is that we have no clue as to whether one group is actually doing something to solve the issue in the first place.

d_c
02-12-2010, 01:45 PM
I'm going to say that it's probably a confluence of Players, Coach and Bird that has left us where we are now.......specifically....everyone is to blame for the situation.

I agree that it's very possible that it's the Players that aren't doing whatever they should be doing and not listening to their Coach ( assuming that he's actually discouraging them from not doing this in the first Place ) and therefore causing the System to fail in the first place.

But then you could argue that it's also the Coach's fault for not taking the necessary steps to rectify this ( which he can easily do by benching Players for not following what he......hopefully...is preaching in practice ) and ( ultimately ) Bird for watching this mess brew without stepping in to fix it ( which we have no clue as to whether he has tried to do this behind the scenes or not ).

The good thing is that this whole mess can be solved by any one of these groups deciding to step in and actually do something to rectify this....the problem is that we have no clue as to whether one group is actually doing something to solve the issue in the first place.

Again, I think if Bird really thought a coaching change would instantly fix all these problems, he'd make it. Maybe he doesn't like JOB's philosiphy. Maybe he thinks they'll never win with it.

But even if that's the case, he's probably thinking that he shouldn't be making his owner eat the contract of the current coach for another 1.5 years when the roster stinks anyways and he'll probably remake it in 2011.

Point is, if this is all about Project 2011, then this current roster just doesn't matter much, so Bird probably doesn't care who coaches it. The 3 year plan was probably just asking people to stick around for 3 years, and then really start the rebuild. It probably doesn't sound great to very many people, but I think it it is what it is.

Sookie
02-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Again, I think if Bird really thought a coaching change would instantly fix all these problems, he'd make it. Maybe he doesn't like JOB's philosiphy. Maybe he thinks they'll never win with it.

But even if that's the case, he's probably thinking that he shouldn't be making his owner eat the contract of the current coach for another 1.5 years when the roster stinks anyways and he'll probably remake it in 2011.

Point is, if this is all about Project 2011, then this current roster just doesn't matter much, so Bird probably doesn't care who coaches it. The 3 year plan was probably just asking people to stick around for 3 years, and then really start the rebuild. It probably doesn't sound great to very many people, but I think it it is what it is.


But if, Larry expects Hans, Price, Roy and Granger to be a part of the team (and probably Rush) ...and he sees Danny's regression, Roy being a scapegoat, and now possibly no playing time for Price..isn't that a situation that needs to be fixed. Not to mention what the playing style is teaching these guys. (Danny, jack up threees. AJ play like Iverson, Roy shoot from farther back...Hans..were gonna teach you how to shoot a three :rolleyes:) That's not a good way to teach young kids.

Get a coach like Bill Laimbeer. He'll take anything. Develope Roy, and do what Larry wants because he's never been an NBA coach. I'm concerned over what JOB is doing to the youth.

special ed
02-12-2010, 02:30 PM
The 3 year plan was probably just asking people to stick around for 3 years, and then really start the rebuild. It probably doesn't sound great to very many people, but I think it it is what it is.But what if "it is what it" isn't?
Man, do I hate these phrases. Bird saying "Moving forward" tells me he's working with someone to kind of sugar coat the situation. When Bird says "It is what it is" or we are attempting to "grow the Pacers' brand" I will know for certain that's the situation, that he's been "brainstorming" again. :eek:
It is now time to face up to it: While I have been a huge Larry Bird fan since his Sycamore days, he's not front office material.There is talent on this team, it's just not being allowed to play through it. Bird doesn't understand playing through the growing pains because he's never had to. And his seeming praise here for OB tells me that the fans have got to rise above his nonsense and ask what he really means.
Because recent history tells me he has little clue and is only attempting to keep a job. The Pacers franchise needs to "move forward" and recognize that this Boston Connection is not the future of the franchise.
As mentioned earlier: I can take the losses. I can't handle the nonsense.

CableKC
02-12-2010, 02:38 PM
Again, I think if Bird really thought a coaching change would instantly fix all these problems, he'd make it. Maybe he doesn't like JOB's philosiphy. Maybe he thinks they'll never win with it.

But even if that's the case, he's probably thinking that he shouldn't be making his owner eat the contract of the current coach for another 1.5 years when the roster stinks anyways and he'll probably remake it in 2011.

Point is, if this is all about Project 2011, then this current roster just doesn't matter much, so Bird probably doesn't care who coaches it. The 3 year plan was probably just asking people to stick around for 3 years, and then really start the rebuild. It probably doesn't sound great to very many people, but I think it it is what it is.
I thought that our 3-year plan would have been to try our best to make the Playoffs while putting up the most competitive Team that we could put out there that was built around our future core of Players ( which I think we did last season ), continue to do that from season to season and then build upon that in the 2011-2012 offseason through trades/drafts/etc.

I was okay with whatever we saw last season....we looked like we were really into most games and could stay competitive against most Teams. But it looks like we took a major step back this season. It's like we started laying a good foundation last season....then all of a sudden....the foundation cracked this season and we have one more season to repair it ( with little options to really fix things ) before we start building the rest of the Team in 2011-2012.

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2010, 02:55 PM
Obie hasn't said that AJ is permanently back to third string, right? He said he was third for last night, but I'm still hopeful that he's just protecting him from the concussion.
I was going by the public statement regarding TJ, Watson and AJ. That pretty directly said that AJ was back to the bench because they only want to use 2 PGs.



The one thing in all this that could make some sense is if there are hidden monkeyshines going on to inflate player value and setup situations going into the trade deadline.

Of course they could have just as well been showcasing AJ for a future trade than trying to bump up TJ right now. Maybe they love TJ and wanted to make AJ look better.
:-o


I just tire of the UB angle on this stuff where when JOB flip flops in 2 weeks it's "see, told you he didn't mean it". I'm not upset about permanent changes nearly as much as I'm upset by the insanely mixed messages, not just in words but in action.

Still not really hearing a great explanation for why Rasho got so much playing time last year in year 1 of the 3 year plan to rebuild and develop the kids (wasn't JOBs first year year 1 of this plan??? if not then what was it?)

ChicagoJ
02-12-2010, 03:02 PM
I'm pretty sure our three-year plan is to get enough information to figure out what our next three-year plan is going to be.

Stay tuned.

The Bulls had a three-year plan about ten years ago too.

Without a plan, you're not getting anywhere. With a plan, it still takes a lot of luck and projections that actually pan out.

90'sNBARocked
02-12-2010, 03:02 PM
yeah rambo, thought police if we change it right?

Well i agree with hoops, so there ya go.

On top of that I have not yet change4d my opinion that LB is the enemy, he wears green, he should not be where he is and most of all because he does not have what it takes.
Even his friends in Boston know that, that's why they were glad to see him go in the first year of his FO job.

LB is doing what i announced he would do when he came on board; running this franchise in the ground, so Herb will sell to LB and his friends who can then score big on a sale to their friends in LV. where LB can be honorary GM all the remaining days of his life.

I paid for LP broadband, I even booked tickets to Indy, but I let them go by and have not watched a game in weeks. (well not Pacers games)

LB's attitude and JOB being his lapdog is not doing what the Pacers need.

And I really am working at keeping it decent.

I wish I could give you 100 "thank you" instead of 1
I feel that when a player of Birds calliber , who did so much for the team, city etc. is not even given a front office position, there is something they knew

Midcoasted
02-12-2010, 03:07 PM
We have to force a youth movement. Period. There is no excuse our starting 5 shouldn't be

Price
Rush
Granger
McRoberts
Hibbert

from now on...If they can't see this is our best lineup for the future at this point I will loose faith in the the management of the team.

Rush has streaky offense, but he is a second year player, and I think Granger can cover those growing pains starting next to him at SF. Price should be getting the PT with our best team because he can get the ball to the other player like no PG I have seen.

McRoberts is there simply for defense, but I think with PT he could grow on the offensive end. I think the offense needs to go through Hibbert, let him dominate. And if he misses, the more phyiscal quicker McRoberts will be there for the tough OFFENSIVE rebounds. So Granger and Price could cover for Rushs off nights and Hibberts post play is more than enough to cover for McRoberts growing pains on O. You also would have TJ, off the bench, being able to add 10-20 points here and there, against opposing teams benches. Instead we leave him out there with the other teams starters and that is always a recipe for disaster.

It's just simply mind boggling why our best rotation isn't playing right now.

Sure Hansoboro may be the best option at PF, but Murphy is not. I really like the idea of Hansboro and McRoberts splitting time, and Hibbert getting most of the C minutes with Solo there for scraps.

Sub D Jones in for Rush and Ford in for Price, and the second team is actually decent.

Im sick of trash small ball. Sorry Larry this little speech isn't over. If we are tanking then you better have this team on fire next year.

The only way I can explain it anymore is tanking. If Larry acknowledges driving then dishing vs just throwing up 3s is a better plan, why do our players still play this sickening style of offense? We have to be tanking...If we loose out we are pretty much gauranteed a top 5 pick IMO.

HOOPFANATIC
02-12-2010, 03:08 PM
I think it's a sign of poor management and decision making when you are having to let people know to "please be patient we know what we are doing!" that is purely subjective at best. What are the goals of this 3 year plan?, Is the goal to make the playoffs? Is the goal to compete for a title? Are we going to be able to do that and have the type of team we want? how can they say they know what they are doing until you see what you have and where you can get with it. I've been watching Hoops for over 20 years and our PTB have made some offbeat decisions the past couple of years.

90'sNBARocked
02-12-2010, 03:16 PM
I want to attempt to find a logical explanation for this. How does Larry Bird say "The one thing about this team is that we stand too much and we settle way too much for the outside shot," he said. "If we get to the hole and put the pressure on the defense, we're a lot better. When we stand and just take outside shots, we have a tendency to struggle."

But then says "Jimmy's done an excellent job of doing the things I want him to do,"

I don't get it.



There is nothing to get bro. Bird has been gromed in "slick talk"

He cant bash Obie publicly because
1 It makes him look bad, because he made the choice to hire Obie
2.The players will completely tune Obie out

Bird is doing the perverbial polish up *** and make it gold

JMHO

McKeyFan
02-12-2010, 03:23 PM
We have to force a youth movement. Period. There is no excuse our starting 5 shouldn't be

Price
Rush
Granger
McRoberts
Hibbert

from now on...If they can't see this is our best lineup for the future at this point I will loose faith in the the management of the team.

Rush has streaky offense, but he is a second year player, and I think Granger can cover those growing pains starting next to him at SF. Price should be getting the PT with our best team because he can get the ball to the other player like no PG I have seen.

McRoberts is there simply for defense, but I think with PT he could grow on the offensive end. I think the offense needs to go through Hibbert, let him dominate. And if he misses, the more phyiscal quicker McRoberts will be there for the tough OFFENSIVE rebounds. So Granger and Price could cover for Rushs off nights and Hibberts post play is more than enough to cover for McRoberts growing pains on O. You also would have TJ, off the bench, being able to add 10-20 points here and there, against opposing teams benches. Instead we leave him out there with the other teams starters and that is always a recipe for disaster.

It's just simply mind boggling why our best rotation isn't playing right now.

Sure Hansoboro may be the best option at PF, but Murphy is not. I really like the idea of Hansboro and McRoberts splitting time, and Hibbert getting most of the C minutes with Solo there for scraps.

Sub D Jones in for Rush and Ford in for Price, and the second team is actually decent.

Im sick of trash small ball. Sorry Larry this little speech isn't over. If we are tanking then you better have this team on fire next year.

The only way I can explain it anymore is tanking. If Larry acknowledges driving then dishing vs just throwing up 3s is a better plan, why do our players still play this sickening style of offense? We have to be tanking...If we loose out we are pretty much gauranteed a top 5 pick IMO.

Some will laugh at that line up, but I am with you.

Many on this board believe that line up would win a bunch more games than what we have been doing.

Others would say they can support that line up because it would reflect "good basketball," and they would be more interested and enthusiastic in supporting the team, regardless of won loss record.

All that has nothing to do with priority number one: developing our future.

The only possible saving grace is that Bird and Obie have been showcasing Troy for a trade (though I don't believe it. JOB simply loves Murph.) But even if Bird pulls off a dandy, I still don't like it. I hate having to get cynical and believe that franchises do things for the money and not the win. Maybe I'm just a pollyanna.

But, I'm convinced the real truth is that JOB desperately wants to win and keeps believing Murph and threes is his pathway to success. And Bird is his gutless enabler.

Anthem
02-12-2010, 03:25 PM
We have to force a youth movement. Period. There is no excuse our starting 5 shouldn't be

Price
Rush
Granger
McRoberts
Hibbert

from now on...If they can't see this is our best lineup for the future at this point I will loose faith in the the management of the team.
Forget the future. That's the best lineup for the PRESENT.

90'sNBARocked
02-12-2010, 03:31 PM
I've asked this before in other threads and I'll ask it again here.

At what point in time though does it stop being on them and start being on the people directing them?



When the front office has been replaced

90'sNBARocked
02-12-2010, 03:37 PM
I'm pretty sure our three-year plan is to get enough information to figure out what our next three-year plan is going to be.

Stay tuned.

The Bulls had a three-year plan about ten years ago too.

Without a plan, you're not getting anywhere. With a plan, it still takes a lot of luck and projections that actually pan out.

You remember when they brought T Mac for a visit to the United Center , had the anouncer calkl his name out

then he used the bulls to get a max offer from Orlando

d_c
02-12-2010, 03:42 PM
Get a coach like Bill Laimbeer. He'll take anything. Develope Roy, and do what Larry wants because he's never been an NBA coach. I'm concerned over what JOB is doing to the youth.

There might really only be a couple examples of a coach permanently ruining guys. Generally speaking, how many young players in the league do you think have been "ruined" by a coach?

I mean it doesn't look as if JOB ruined Paul Pierce. In fact Pierce had some of his best years under him.

The only real examples I can think of are Damon Stoudamire and Shareef Abdur Rahim getting ruined, and mainly it was because they played TOO MANY minutes early on, not too few.

Unclebuck
02-12-2010, 03:48 PM
There might really only be a couple examples of a coach permanently ruining guys. Generally speaking, how many young players in the league do you think have been "ruined" by a coach?

I mean it doesn't look as if JOB ruined Paul Pierce. In fact Pierce had some of his best years under him.

The only real examples I can think of are Damon Stoudamire and Shareef Abdur Rahim getting ruined, and mainly it was because they played TOO MANY minutes early on, not too few.

Great post. If my brain wasn't experiencing Friday fatigue I would be able to add to what you are saying, but I can't so won't try. it does crack me up when fans suggest that oh no JOB is permanantly ruining anyones career.

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2010, 03:59 PM
Like I said, he's used up his rope for the most part. However, I don't think he's made bad picks in the draft. Price was a steal. Hibbert was a very solid pick. Rush is still an unknown but could turn out to be very good. None of these guys are busts...and none have been getting busted. But yes, Bird needs to watch his mouth because he's sounding more like JOb. The worst thing about the last few years has been this double-speak. I cannot believe anything they say.

BTW, at least you can take what Bill Polian says to the bank...whether or not you agree with him.
I have to partially agree here at least.

Obviously I was a big Price and Rush fan. I was worried about Hibbert and his lateral quickness but he's worked out great as a 17th pick.

Tyler was not a choice I support, but the jury on him is 95% out still.


On the flipside though, the Rush/Hibbert draft was deep so it wasn't that hard to draft well. Lots of teams came out nice in that draft. Good on Bird to get the 2nd pick, but getting Hibbert instead of Lee, for example, isn't some big steal (so far).

Clearly Blair wasn't the only guy to get last year and the GM should have seen that last year was the PG year and this year is the PF year and drafted accordingly. He did get Price, but if he also liked Lawson then he should have chased both and used the Watson money on a spare big to hold the fort until this draft.

I would have been thrilled with Chase, Young or Holiday and all could have come with a trade down, which was also fairly clear going into draft night.


So I score Bird (as the true GM, ignoring the mixed years) as a bit above neutral. I was not thrilled with his methodology of hiring a coach because it did appear he alienated SVG and settled on JOB due to the "only a phone interview" hiring. Most people don't get $15K a year jobs off of phone interviews, let alone big money jobs like NBA coach.


I can't call him a failure at all, but he's not been free from scrutiny either.

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2010, 04:05 PM
Great post. If my brain wasn't experiencing Friday fatigue I would be able to add to what you are saying, but I can't so won't try. it does crack me up when fans suggest that oh no JOB is permanantly ruining anyones career.
But how many young players spend 3 years with a coach capable of ruining them? Usually if a coach is bad they are gone before that happens.


Also, how do you know who was ruined vs. who just never was going to be good??? Were those draft pick busts or players that were coached up wrong? Who were Tim Floyd's top picks?

What about guys that get by on talent but never reach the levels they would had they had better coaching early on? Mike Dunleavy, a top 5 pick who has never hit that level? What about some of the high Clippers or Hawks picks that didn't work out?

I think Kwame Brown qualifies as a guy that might have been ruined early on, mostly by Michael but still that's a similar thing.


I can agree because of this that we can't pin stuff on JOB, but we can't clear his name of all wrongdoing either. It's a legit worry that's nearly impossible to verify either way.

d_c
02-12-2010, 04:14 PM
What about guys that get by on talent but never reach the levels they would had they had better coaching early on? Mike Dunleavy, a top 5 pick who has never hit that level? What about some of the high Clippers or Hawks picks that didn't work out?

Paul Pierce spent 3 years with JOB and it did nothing to slow down a career that is going to wind up in the HOF.

Dunleavy had 4 different coaches early on in his career, with two of them being COY winners. He didn't realize his ability until he finally met the much maligned JOB.

And there are plenty of high lottery picks who washed out or never realized their potential even while playing under very good coaches.

PaceBalls
02-12-2010, 04:15 PM
I would say Larry Brown has been much more... I wouldn't say destructive, but maybe hindering the growth of younger players than Jim. You can see it happening right now in Charlotte. It happened in Detroit and it happened in Indiana. Jim, at least plays the young guys, except McBob. And that might soon change if Murph is traded. I think us fans want to see what these guys can do with playing time, but our coaches see them play every practice.

Unclebuck
02-12-2010, 04:20 PM
if a coach ruins a players career than the player wasn't any good to begin with or wasn't going to be any good in the future.

d_c
02-12-2010, 04:27 PM
Here's an example of what you have to ask yourself when you think of coaches and young talent development:

Is a guy like Mike Woodson a good developer of talent? Shelden Williams was a bust with a #5 pick. Marvin Williams has been a solid player, but never matched the hype of his draft potential. But at same time he can also "claim" to have developed Josh Smith from a raw, non-lottery pick, 18 year old highschooler who had no clue how to play the pro game into a damn good player. So from those examples, can you say that Woodson is a good or bad developer of talent? I would tend to say that Josh Smith is simply a better player and pick than those other 2 guys.

How about Scott Skiles, who many people here would take over JOB? Is he responsible for Tyrus Thomas being the underachiever he is? How about Joe Alexander, who is the highest pick ever to not get his 3rd year option picked up? Is he the guy responsible for Alexander still being a stiff of an NBA player? If he is, then please don't talk about JOB being a worse talent developer than Skiles. If he isn't, then please talk less about coaches developing talent and spend more time about teams taking the right/wrong player.

sweabs
02-12-2010, 04:37 PM
Here's an example of what you have to ask yourself when you think of coaches and young talent development:

Is a guy like Mike Woodson a good developer of talent? Shelden Williams was a bust with a #5 pick. Marvin Williams has been a solid player, but never matched the hype of his draft potential. But at same time he can also "claim" to have developed Josh Smith from a raw, non-lottery pick, 18 year old highschooler who had no clue how to play the pro game into a damn good player. So from those examples, can you say that Woodson is a good or bad developer of talent? I would tend to say that Josh Smith is simply a better player and pick than those other 2 guys.

How about Scott Skiles, who many people here would take over JOB? Is he responsible for Tyrus Thomas being the underachiever he is? How about Joe Alexander, who is the highest pick ever to not get his 3rd year option picked up? Is he the guy responsible for Alexander still being a stiff of an NBA player? If he is, then please don't talk about JOB being a worse talent developer than Skiles. If he isn't, then please talk less about coaches developing talent and spend more time about teams taking the right/wrong player.
This entire argument is also based upon the assumption that coaches are the only people to take into consideration when assessing the development of an athlete. In actuality, there are so many other factors that need to be weighted. Not to mention, a coach may in fact be a great developer of talent (if we were able to measure such a thing), yet the athlete she/he is trying to groom is unwilling to respond to the methods being used by the coach. Looking at the players that each coach is "responsible" for developing and either labeling them a success/bust is not an accurate way to base ones conclusion.

d_c
02-12-2010, 04:51 PM
This entire argument is also based upon the assumption that coaches are the only people to take into consideration when assessing the development of an athlete. In actuality, there are so many other factors that need to be weighted. Not to mention, a coach may in fact be a great developer of talent (if we were able to measure such a thing), yet the athlete she/he is trying to groom is unwilling to respond to the methods being used by the coach. Looking at the players that each coach is "responsible" for developing and either labeling them a success/bust is not an accurate way to base ones conclusion.

Which is basically what I was trying to illustrate with Mike Woodson. Can you conclude whether or not he's a great developer of talent based on his track record? You can't say for sure because he's had guys who have both succeeded and failed.

Pretty much all NBA teams (heck, most college teams) have the coaching personnel and resources to develop talent. So that's why I put the success/failure of players on the players themselves. It comes down to their talent, work ethic and willingness to learn.

Justin Tyme
02-12-2010, 05:02 PM
Is a guy like Mike Woodson a good developer of talent? Shelden Williams was a bust with a #5 pick. Marvin Williams has been a solid player, but never matched the hype of his draft potential. But at same time he can also "claim" to have developed Josh Smith from a raw, non-lottery pick, 18 year old highschooler who had no clue how to play the pro game into a damn good player.


In which category would you put Josh Childress?

d_c
02-12-2010, 05:05 PM
In which category would you put Josh Childress?

I think Childress was taken a little too high but I think his career has panned out to match his talent. He's a solid player. And also can't forget that Acie Law was pretty much a bust.

cdash
02-12-2010, 06:26 PM
I think Childress was taken a little too high but I think his career has panned out to match his talent. He's a solid player. And also can't forget that Acie Law was pretty much a bust.

Pretty much? Yeah, I'd say he was a fairly sizeable bust, as much as anyone can be in the late lottery.

1984
02-12-2010, 07:34 PM
Friends,

Weren't we all "patient" when Rik Smits retired, Mark Jackson went to the Knicks, and Dale Davis was traded for Jermaine O'Neal? I'm sorry but define "patience." We have been patient for ten years Larry! We were patient and understanding when we watched Antonio Davis get traded for Jona"thin" Bender, we were patient and hopeful as we watched Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest develop into All-Stars, we were patient and forgiving when we watched those same players commit an atrocity. We were patient when you traded our draft pick for Al Harrington, we were patient when you drafted Shawn Williams. What more do you want Larry?

I had my first child three weeks ago, a little boy. I want him to have the excitement of a Reggie Miller and a winning team. My patience has run out. Will I still love and support this team tomorrow? Yes. However, I use to love coming home from college and relaxing while watching a game. Now, a few years later, I come home from work and become frustrated while watching a game. That is honestly where I am.

Sookie
02-12-2010, 11:48 PM
There might really only be a couple examples of a coach permanently ruining guys. Generally speaking, how many young players in the league do you think have been "ruined" by a coach?

I mean it doesn't look as if JOB ruined Paul Pierce. In fact Pierce had some of his best years under him.

The only real examples I can think of are Damon Stoudamire and Shareef Abdur Rahim getting ruined, and mainly it was because they played TOO MANY minutes early on, not too few.



There's a difference between "ruining" a player, and teaching them bad habbits.

But I really think younger guys needs some structure.

And JOB gives them "offensive freedom"

NapTonius Monk
02-13-2010, 12:04 AM
Friends,

Weren't we all "patient" when Rik Smits retired, Mark Jackson went to the Knicks, and Dale Davis was traded for Jermaine O'Neal? I'm sorry but define "patience." We have been patient for ten years Larry! We were patient and understanding when we watched Antonio Davis get traded for Jona"thin" Bender, we were patient and hopeful as we watched Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest develop into All-Stars, we were patient and forgiving when we watched those same players commit an atrocity. We were patient when you traded our draft pick for Al Harrington, we were patient when you drafted Shawn Williams. What more do you want Larry?

I had my first child three weeks ago, a little boy. I want him to have the excitement of a Reggie Miller and a winning team. My patience has run out. Will I still love and support this team tomorrow? Yes. However, I use to love coming home from college and relaxing while watching a game. Now, a few years later, I come home from work and become frustrated while watching a game. That is honestly where I am.

So Larry gets retroactively blamed for the moves the franchise made that haven't turned out the best over the last 10 years? Come on now. The call for patience is for the fans not to bail in the midst of the 3 year rebuild, even though it's a bit dark at the moment.

Kemo
02-13-2010, 03:06 AM
But you do make valid points in your post as well, we do not have good penetrators.


Not to sound dirty with an unintended pun ...lol , but from what I have seen in his limited time... Head seems to be able to penetrate well when I've seen him take it to the rim.....

He can get to the rim pretty good, and finish, and he seems to get alot of backdoor cuts when he actually can get a good pass to him..


Also, I do think Rush is more than capable... your guess is as good as mine, as to why we don't see it alot more often..


.
.

Hicks
02-13-2010, 09:51 AM
You can sit his @ss on the bench.


If you lead the same horse to the same water time after time but you let your other horses die of dehdration because they have never had a chance to get water, is it then on the guide?

My theory here is that it's part of how a coach keeps millionaires with guaranteed contracts from totally tuning him out: The bench is a last resort unless the player is just totally acting inappropriately. I think if this were a college team, you'd probably see more benching.

Combine that with the not-unusual philosophy of playing 2 players per position (basically), and that's why you often don't see 3-man rotations for one position such as giving Josh 10 minutes behind Murphy/whomever or Solomon behind Roy/Troy, or AJ when Earl and TJ play.

HOOPFANATIC
02-13-2010, 10:26 AM
NBA is strictly entertainment. Birds comments are kinda like a TV exec asking people to not stop watching the late night talk show with an unfunny host.:)

Seriously, I don't think it's fair to ask people to keep paying their hard earned money if you are appearing to do nothing positive to help the win loss situation.

McKeyFan
02-13-2010, 12:47 PM
My theory here is that it's part of how a coach keeps millionaires with guaranteed contracts from totally tuning him out: The bench is a last resort unless the player is just totally acting inappropriately. I think if this were a college team, you'd probably see more benching.

Combine that with the not-unusual philosophy of playing 2 players per position (basically), and that's why you often don't see 3-man rotations for one position such as giving Josh 10 minutes behind Murphy/whomever or Solomon behind Roy/Troy, or AJ when Earl and TJ play.

Well, I appreciate the response. I hate the concept. Not that it's your concept, you are simply trying to explain what is happening.

Does this mean that Danny Granger is really the coach, not Jim O'Brien?

Does this mean that Pop and Larry Brown and Phil Jackson just got lucky that their stars play "the right way"? I'd rather like to think that those coaches demand excellence and find a way to enforce it, superstars and big contracts be damned.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the NBA is far more player oriented that I thought. But I think a real man in the coach's chair would make something happen.

Hicks
02-13-2010, 01:30 PM
Phil Jackson is very good at communicating and "reaching" his players. It can be done, but not all the time and not with anyone.

Some people grow up to respect authority, and some don't. If you're asked to coach a team where some or all of the top players don't respect your authority, there's not a lot you can do.

My feelings about our team now is that these guys do respect authority, but they may have given up on O'Brien. It's not that they're so much hostile towards him, but they don't believe in his message anymore. Or they're just mentally worn out by him.

DaveP63
02-13-2010, 01:47 PM
My feelings about our team now is that these guys do respect authority, but they may have given up on O'Brien. It's not that their so much hostile towards him, but they don't believe in his message anymore. Or they're just mentally worn out by him.

:ding:

pacers_heath
02-13-2010, 01:59 PM
We should have just stayed put with the post brawl players. We've accomplished nothing trading away our best players for the likes of Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, and TJ Ford - all basically the players on the team that everyone wants gone because the cause chemistry issues - the reason the players we traded them for were traded in the first place.

I mean we are waiting for their contracts to expire anyway as if the time they are here is insignificant. Why not have just kept Jackson, Harrington, O'Neal, and even Tinsley if we are just waiting for contracts to expire? At least we would have had a respectable team to put on the court in the meantime. Honestly, this lineup as potential:

PG - Jamaal Tinsley
SG - Stephen Jackson
C - Jermaine O'Neal
SF - Danny Granger
PF - Al Harrington

I mean yeah they had character issues, but this is probably an 8th seed at worst, eastern conference contenders at best. That team has incredible talent quite honestly, it's basically the 61 win team with an all-star Danny Granger instead of an all-star Ron Artest. Imagine Danny Granger scoring on at the wing in tandem with Stephen Jackson with JO and Harrington to throw it to down low instead of Troy Murphy and Roy. Not to mention Tinsley is head over heels a better point guard than anyone on our current roster. He was getting 8.7 assists in JOB's system last he played.

Meanwhile we let Brandon Rush, Hansbrough, and whoever else we draft in the meantime get good minutes off the bench and rebuild when all these contracts are up. It's basically the same end result without looking pathetic in the process. That Golden state trade was terrible and really doesn't make any sense. I'm okay with JO being traded because we got Hibbert, but I would have been just as fine to let him ride it out. Just a thought, but that actually seems like a good team...They were an 8th seed last time that group was together, but that was with all the Artest drama and Granger was only a rookie so you've got to imagine they'd do at least as well.

Dece
02-13-2010, 02:14 PM
That roster would punish our roster so bad... if they played 10 times they'd win all 10 by an average margin of at least 10 ppg.

PaceBalls
02-13-2010, 02:20 PM
That roster would punish our roster so bad... if they played 10 times they'd win all 10 by an average margin of at least 10 ppg.

If they could avoid getting shot or shooting someone, or stay healthy more than half the season... yeah that team would be really, really, really good. We would certainly be at Atlanta's level, possibly contenders with Boston and the Magic.

It just would not ever work, Health, guns and bullets would tear that team apart... as it did (except Al). That would be a great NBA2k10 team... with injuries turned off.

Dece
02-13-2010, 02:45 PM
And yet, interestingly, all 4 of those guys have played a greater percentage of their games than Dunleavy... those 4 who aren't on our squad have also played more than Granger.

So injury prone and unreliable.

Al - 47
Jamaal - 36 (and he wasn't signed until partway through the season)
SJ - 51
JO - 48
DG - 35
Dunleavy - 39

NapTonius Monk
02-13-2010, 02:57 PM
If they could avoid getting shot or shooting someone

Or getting someone else shot (Joe Qatato). No doubt, that was a more talented team. But their antics grew tiresome.

PaceBalls
02-13-2010, 03:01 PM
And yet, interestingly, all 4 of those guys have played a greater percentage of their games than Dunleavy... those 4 who aren't on our squad have also played more than Granger.

So injury prone and unreliable.

Al - 47
Jamaal - 36 (and he wasn't signed until partway through the season)
SJ - 51
JO - 48
DG - 35
Dunleavy - 39

Oh I agree in part. I think the GS/IND trade was the worst trade the Pacers have ever made. I think SJax needed to go, but we certainly could have found a better offer for him and I would have liked to have kept AL.

It is no weird coincidence that our team went from mediocre-above average to one of the worst, and has stayed that way ever since that trade.

I also think the way they handled Tinsley was terrible. They treated him like he didn't have a 20 million contract that would impact our team for years to come. A little diplomacy goes a long way. Especially when gauranteed contracts are on the line. Thinking about Tinsley brings out some irony in what Larry is telling us... Yeah Larry, a little patience by the FO would have been nice over the last 4 years.

NapTonius Monk
02-13-2010, 03:13 PM
Oh I agree in part. I think the GS/IND trade was the worst trade the Pacers have ever made. I think SJax needed to go, but we certainly could have found a better offer for him and I would have liked to have kept AL.

It is no weird coincidence that our team went from mediocre-above average to bottom feeder, and has stayed that way ever since that trade.

I also think the way they handled Tinsley was terrible. They treated him like he didn't have a 20 million contract that would impact our team for years to come. A little diplomacy goes a long way. Especially when gauranteed contracts are on the line. Thinking about Tinsley brings out some irony in what Larry is telling us... Yeah Larry, a little patience by the FO would have been nice over the last 4 years.

I think sometimes we overestimate the stupidity of NBA GM's as a whole. You don't think they were sending lowball offers for Stephen and Jamaal? Look, the tide will turn again. Things are cyclical in the NBA. But don't forget the vibe that was around here with these guys. If we could only get a glimpse of what the front office likely knew behind the scenes, we might wonder why it took them so long to get rid of these guys. I like Artest, and Jax. I like Tinsley and JO. But their time here had run its' course.

SMosley21
02-13-2010, 03:26 PM
I'm having a hard enough time being patient through the trade deadline, let alone the patience it's going to take to get through the 3 year plan. But I survived 2 wars, so I think I can survive Jim O'Brien's run as coach.... I think.

McKeyFan
02-13-2010, 04:34 PM
We should have just stayed put with the post brawl players. We've accomplished nothing trading away our best players for the likes of Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, and TJ Ford - all basically the players on the team that everyone wants gone because the cause chemistry issues - the reason the players we traded them for were traded in the first place.

I mean we are waiting for their contracts to expire anyway as if the time they are here is insignificant. Why not have just kept Jackson, Harrington, O'Neal, and even Tinsley if we are just waiting for contracts to expire? At least we would have had a respectable team to put on the court in the meantime. Honestly, this lineup as potential:

PG - Jamaal Tinsley
SG - Stephen Jackson
C - Jermaine O'Neal
SF - Danny Granger
PF - Al Harrington

I mean yeah they had character issues, but this is probably an 8th seed at worst, eastern conference contenders at best. That team has incredible talent quite honestly, it's basically the 61 win team with an all-star Danny Granger instead of an all-star Ron Artest. Imagine Danny Granger scoring on at the wing in tandem with Stephen Jackson with JO and Harrington to throw it to down low instead of Troy Murphy and Roy. Not to mention Tinsley is head over heels a better point guard than anyone on our current roster. He was getting 8.7 assists in JOB's system last he played.

Meanwhile we let Brandon Rush, Hansbrough, and whoever else we draft in the meantime get good minutes off the bench and rebuild when all these contracts are up. It's basically the same end result without looking pathetic in the process. That Golden state trade was terrible and really doesn't make any sense. I'm okay with JO being traded because we got Hibbert, but I would have been just as fine to let him ride it out. Just a thought, but that actually seems like a good team...They were an 8th seed last time that group was together, but that was with all the Artest drama and Granger was only a rookie so you've got to imagine they'd do at least as well.

Good post. But you've got to factor in the character component.

I mean, how far do you do in indulging rotten, spoiled brat, bad characters?

Tattoos? Piercings? Coloring your hair gold? Kicking cameramen? Dressing in women's clothing? That won't win you championships.

Oh wait

:zip:

Naptown_Seth
02-14-2010, 03:16 AM
Not to sound dirty with an unintended pun ...lol , but from what I have seen in his limited time... Head seems to be able to penetrate well when I've seen him take it to the rim.....

He can get to the rim pretty good, and finish, and he seems to get alot of backdoor cuts when he actually can get a good pass to him..


Also, I do think Rush is more than capable... your guess is as good as mine, as to why we don't see it alot more often..


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If Rush has a hole in his offense it's the lack of a real drive into traffic game. He does it sometimes, but he's pretty uncomfortable with it usually.

My theory on his is that he has a very disciplined game and is not one to go "begging for fouls" (my term for players that hunt contact more than hunting a good shot). This is not to say that driving into traffic for possible fouls doesn't help, at least some of the time. I'm just saying that I think he tries to find good, clear shots rather than trying to beat guys with his dribble to the lane.

So if he doesn't have that clean mid to long jumper he just moves the ball. This is then seen as "reluctant" to score.

But he plays too tough in most ways to be shy about taking shots, and at times he's all too willing to put up something even in late game situations.

Frankly what Rush is lacking is a dash of streetball, and the mentality you develop from that (ie, some selfishness and overt aggression).

Naptown_Seth
02-14-2010, 03:25 AM
Paul Pierce spent 3 years with JOB and it did nothing to slow down a career that is going to wind up in the HOF.

Dunleavy had 4 different coaches early on in his career, with two of them being COY winners. He didn't realize his ability until he finally met the much maligned JOB.

And there are plenty of high lottery picks who washed out or never realized their potential even while playing under very good coaches.
Your debating my first line or two but my post ended with this...


I can agree because of this that we can't pin stuff on JOB, but we can't clear his name of all wrongdoing either. It's a legit worry that's nearly impossible to verify either way.
Not complaining or upset in the least, just sayin'...


It's not wrong to be worried, but you'll never prove it one way or the other with any player or coach, simply because their is no redo.


Did Brown hold Rose back or did Rose just "get it" when Bird came along...okay, bad example because that was a bit obvious (that Brown was f'ing up and that Rose responded to Bird).

And the irony is that for some situations it takes the first team or coach giving up on a player to motivate that player to a new level (ie, Tinsley, undrafted Brad Miller).