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Peck
02-10-2010, 06:28 PM
I've seen this brought up in a couple of other threads and it has been the topic of conversation recently after some of the games.

Are any of you that hold tickets (either full, partial or mini plans) planning to decrease your ticket purchases next season if Jim O'Brien returns as the coach? That means either dropping the tix altoghether or dropping back in the number of games purchased, etc.?

I know it really is kind of early for this type of talk but I've been hearing and reading a lot about it lately.

*Bonus question* What would the Pacers need to do to make you keep your tickets if he returns or is it firmly a "either he goes or I go" type of deal for you?

Hicks
02-10-2010, 06:30 PM
There are three factors for me next year:

1) Money
2) O'Brien returning (or not)
3) How we do in the draft (not where, but who we pick)

Money is the largest issue, and will likely be what keeps me away next year (I'll just buy as I go and/or tag along when someone has an extra ticket), but if I have enough to where I can afford it, 2 and 3 will definitely play a role in whether or not I return.

If Jim's back, I'm not sure I want to be.

Trader Joe
02-10-2010, 06:33 PM
I'm done with attending games as long as Jim O'Brien is here, and my father feels the same way. We had season tickets for four years. O'Brien makes it so now we don't even want to attend the occasional game anymore.

PaceBalls
02-10-2010, 06:33 PM
If I were a season ticket holder, I probably would drop them if Jim returned. I would consider it a slap in the face as a customer. It is pretty much throwing in the towel for another season. Plus, once the 3 year plan comes to fruition I am sure there will be plenty of good season ticket seats available if you want to get them the season after.
Watch the games on TV if you can stand it.

ChicagoJ
02-10-2010, 06:50 PM
As a former season ticket holder, I'm in no hurry to purchase them again... regardless of what happens with Jim.

Larry... on the other hand...

But current life circumstances probably would keep me from buying tickets again even if Bird were gone.

Thesterovic
02-10-2010, 06:57 PM
I think the casual fan is sick of it as well. I remember when Roy came off the bench for Troy vs. Phoenix early-Jan, and Roy got a standing ovation when he came on the floor. That's something I may never forget. I think the casual fan is starting to understand things now. Plus, its not uncommon when you hear Chris Denari, Clark Kellogg, Kevin Lee, many fans, other commentators, and other players question what he is doing. I also remember Slick throwing a fit saying, "Why in the world is Roy in the high post? What can he do there?" Or when Chris constantly brings up the whole Danny Granger-jumpshot scenario. Or when Roy comes in the game, that is all that Clark talks about.

I feel like in 5-10 years, some one is going to fess up about the Mel Daniels firing, JOB extension, players not caring, the Bird comments about the players going, etc. It will be interesting to hear what is going on behind the scenes.

duke dynamite
02-10-2010, 07:06 PM
Regardless of what happens this offseason I am renewing my current package. I'm not going to abandon the team in any fashion just because I don't like the coach or whatever.

As for the bonus question, the Pacers just need to stay in Indiana, and I'll continue to show up.

chrisjacobs7
02-10-2010, 07:19 PM
Either JOB goes or I go... if he's back I'll still go to a couple games but I definitely wouldn't renew my season tickets.

EDIT: Forgot to answer the bonus... There is probably nothing they could do for me to renew... unless they agreed to let me throw a pie in JOB's face at halftime of a game.

dustinpettit
02-10-2010, 07:19 PM
Ya I will renew. $215 for a full season is not going to break bank. I know that the FO will get everything together soon enough... I hope? Rebuilding takes time, and I'll be there to watch it happen

tikitomoka
02-10-2010, 07:22 PM
i've been to 10 or so games this season and have left early at almost every single one. theyre not an exciting team to watch and generally just don't look like they're putting in 100% effort. if i didnt try and get autos before the game i probably wouldnt attend at all. not worth the 20-25 minute drive just to see them throw up a lot of bad shots and not get back on defense

Doug
02-10-2010, 08:01 PM
Regardless of what happens this offseason I am renewing my current package. I'm not going to abandon the team in any fashion just because I don't like the coach or whatever.

As for the bonus question, the Pacers just need to stay in Indiana, and I'll continue to show up.Agreed.

And I NEVER leave early, no matter what the score.

All that said, my kids are getting older, which means busier, which means it's harder and harder to make sure I can go to all the games in my package. I'm probably better off just buying 6 or so single game tickets throughout the year.

I like being a season ticket holder, though, so I'd probably put it at about 50/50. But that has nothing to do with JOB.

Hoop
02-10-2010, 08:35 PM
I'm so very close to telling them it's JOB or me. It's very hard for me to give up on a team that I've had season tickets with for 23 years, but I just don't think I can take another season with a coach I despise this much.

I will have a meeting or something with my ticket person after the season to see if I can get any information. I guess I'm hoping he'll be canned very soon and I will not have to make the decision.

One of the ticket people I've already talked to said they know of at least 25 accounts that are gone if JOB returns. For a team that has very few fans left, I just do not see how management can let that happen.

Fans that have stuck with the team through the brawl, the strip club and shooting incidents, 3 years of horrible JOB basketball, I just can't see management stabbing them in the back and letting JOB run the rest of us out of Conseco. They'll have to eat more money than 1 year of JOB's contract if he stays.

Does Larry really want to be remembered as the guy that made the Las Vegas Pacers happen?

BRushWithDeath
02-10-2010, 09:04 PM
I'm planning on continuing my attendance. I'll be extremely upset and will continue to boo him every game just as I have this season. Now if we pick Cole Aldrich, that could be a different story.

Peter_sixtyftsixin
02-10-2010, 09:29 PM
I'm a hockey fan and a baseball fan ahead of a basketball fan. I only watch the Pacers because they're "my" team and as I've written on these boards before, encapsulate my home state so wonderfully.

Basically, my Hawks are playing really well and I much rather save my money and make pilgrimages to Chicago, Columbus or Detroit than spend money watching a team that looks clueless most nights.

Although, when I get free tickets I'm always there.

I'll start buying tickets at a frequent rate when JOB is gone.

kellogg
02-10-2010, 10:31 PM
I will definitely NOT renew my ticket package at this point. Retaining JOB would only be a symptom of the problem IMHO though, but if they do I think it would be clear that Bird is satisfied with mediocrity in perpetuity.
Frankly I always thought Isaih's rotations were the most mindless and illogical, but I was wrong...O'Brien's are, by a longshot. His continuous shuffling of the starters, especially with regards to starting Troy, who cannot defend a paper bag. My only concern is what permanent developmental stunting has he inflicted on Rush and Roy, and perhaps A.J.

So I guess it would be a hard sell even if O'Brien is gone...barring a major trade or top 3 draft pick. But if he's here, I can say with near certainty I will not waste my money while watching NBDL-level talent...heck, these Pacers make I.U. look pretty good now.

For me to purchase tickets without some major shake-up would be essentially 'rewarding' management and in effect saying, 'I'm ok paying to watch this coach and team'.

Hibbert Laugh
02-10-2010, 10:34 PM
I'll be renewing my balcony cheap seats JOB or no JOB. I don't want to be a fair weather fan and I doubt my ~$410 really carries that much weight in terms of persuasion in personnel decisions.

joeyd
02-11-2010, 01:42 AM
Finances permitting, I will definitely try to renew next year. I know what it's like to live in an NBA-less city. It's not good to be an NBA fan in such a city. By renewing, I feel that I'm doing my part to keep the team here and be supportive. I also realize that seasons and teams can be very unpredictable and I want to be there for the turnaround. I suppose that if we kept being served a listless, effortless team year after year, I would reconsider or buy tickets for the premium games. But this has not been the case to this point, nor do I see it happening.

I dare say that it would be easier for folks to reconsider regardless of the O'Brien situation if the ticket prices were even lower next year (I'm not saying that they are outrageous now, but many will cite the economy as the limiting factor), or if the promos were limited a bit more next season.

Bball
02-11-2010, 02:05 AM
I have no interest in bad basketball. Losing is one thing, bad basketball is another. I can accept losing if I'm seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. I've not been to a game all season and I can't see myself changing that to watch spray and pray basketball.

The WORST thing Bird could've done this season for me was give O'Brien an in season vote of confidence. That was a kick in the teeth, a punch in the gut, and a slap in the face. (Not) Firing him midseason is one thing but to give him a vote of confidence? Couple that with the (much too) early extension given to him and that's my cue to lose interest in the current incarnation of the franchise quickly.

If there's a 3 year plan, I don't see it. Any plan that includes O'Brien is a losing plan as far as I'm concerned. Bad basketball is bad basketball.

Sookie
02-11-2010, 02:17 AM
I have no interest in bad basketball. Losing is one thing, bad basketball is another. I can accept losing if I'm seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. I've not been to a game all season and I can't see myself changing that to watch spray and pray basketball.

The WORST thing Bird could've done this season for me was give O'Brien an in season vote of confidence. That was a kick in the teeth, a punch in the gut, and a slap in the face. (Not) Firing him midseason is one thing but to give him a vote of confidence? Couple that with the (much too) early extension given to him and that's my cue to lose interest in the current incarnation of the franchise quickly.

If there's a 3 year plan, I don't see it. Any plan that includes O'Brien is a losing plan as far as I'm concerned. Bad basketball is bad basketball.

I think Bird has to show coaches that he'll support them.
Indiana struggled to get someone to take a job here. If we want an improvement over JOB, he'll have to know he has Bird's support.

That said..Bird needs to start calling some shots..

Infinite MAN_force
02-11-2010, 02:39 AM
It appears the fan voice is nearly unanimous when it comes to Obrien, and TPTB better be paying attention... if they have any sense at all. Otherwise they lose the only fans they have left.

Bball
02-11-2010, 02:55 AM
I think Bird has to show coaches that he'll support them.

But wouldn't you think the extension did that?

I'm not suggesting I expected Bird to throw O'Brien under the bus with some disparaging comments during the season indicating he was as good as gone. I would've expected a 'non' statement though. A "We'll evaluate everyone after the season just as always" would've sufficed. ...Or even better "We are continually evaluating coaches AND players...."

Instead he gave him a vote of confidence AND indicated any players that weren't onboard could find themselves gone.

If I was a player I would immediately call Bird to let him know I'm not on board in hopes Bird was a man of his word. ;)

Pacersfan46
02-11-2010, 04:08 AM
It appears the fan voice is nearly unanimous when it comes to Obrien, and TPTB better be paying attention... if they have any sense at all. Otherwise they lose the only fans they have left.

You make it sound so final, as if once they "lose" fans, they can never get them back. If this team wins over 50 games next year, they would have "new" fans crawling out of the woodwork. Happens every time a team starts winning.

-- Steve --

kellogg
02-11-2010, 09:33 AM
I'll be renewing my balcony cheap seats JOB or no JOB. I don't want to be a fair weather fan and I doubt my ~$410 really carries that much weight in terms of persuasion in personnel decisions.

Totally respect your decision, but if you were a customer of any other type business, and they provided you a BAD product, would you or should you continue to buy that product simply to not be referred to as 'fair weather'. Likewise, individually your $410 might not make a difference, but it's the same reason we all vote...collectively, as fans and customers, we can/do have a say in this mess.

Back in the 70s I remember my Dad buying his first Honda (he'd always bought Fords previously)...his reasoning was that he wasn't being unpatriotic, but rather he said he would be rewarding Ford for putting out crappy cars if he bought from them...American or not.

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 09:56 AM
Totally respect your decision, but if you were a customer of any other type business, and they provided you a BAD product, would you or should you continue to buy that product simply to not be referred to as 'fair weather'. Likewise, individually your $410 might not make a difference, but it's the same reason we all vote...collectively, as fans and customers, we can/do have a say in this mess.
In sports it's slightly different, because the "product" can change year after year. To not renew because of a "bad product" one season doesn't mean the environment won't necessarily change the next.

Voting and politics have a significantly higher impact on your daily lives than an NBA team would, hopefully. If it doesn't, then I feel for you.

In regards to the coach, giving him the extension was probably a good idea. It was more beneficial towards the players than it was the fans. As a matter of fact, whether it worked or not, it was a great way to try and ease the distraction of having the players bail on him early on.

You guys can whine and moan all you want, but if you love a team, you're going to stick with it. Thick or thin. I really hate all of these ultimatums that people are placing on their seats for next year.

Here is a little clip from one of my favorite movies to calm you all down.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6ssS2y0GUZk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6ssS2y0GUZk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 10:02 AM
but if you were a customer of any other type business, and they provided you a BAD product, would you or should you continue to buy that product simply to not be referred to as 'fair weather'.


I want to comment on your general point - not about the Pacers. I hear this argument from time to time over the years. Sure if I go to Walmart and I buy a particular brand of toothpaste and I don't like it, next time I go to Walmart I won't think twice about switching brands and I'll keep switching brands until I find one I like and the the price I like. This type of thing is something everyone does all the time.

(I just saw your comment about buying a car - still not the same thing because there are so many brands of cars to buy - there is only one NBA team in town) If there were only Hondas in town and it was Hondas or nothing - sure I'd buy a Honda if I wanted a car. if I want to go to NBA games it is pacers or nothing

so I don't see how what you are saying campares to following the Pacers. We don't have another team in town to follow - it isn't like we can decide oh well we don't like the pacers product, so we can buy tickets across the street and go to Pistons games or if we don't like the Pistons we can buy tickets to the Cavs, or lakers.......I think you understand my point. Pacers are the only NBA game in town - either you follow them or you don't - you can't change brands - so comparing it to toothpastes or most other products is just not a good comparison.

If you like NBA basketball either you go to Pacers games or you don't go to any NBA games - that is the choice here. If you don't like Crest, you can buy Colgate no problem.

Beyond that, just because the team doesn't win a at good rate or play the style you like, or coached by the man you love - that doesn't mean you don't enjoy going to the games. it could be more of a social thing for you, it could be that you just love NBA basketball and you love seeing the Pacers whether they win or lose and you love seeing the other teams and other players - whatever - you just love NBA basketball - so you continue to go

Also there is a certain thing involved here - love of your team, being a fan of your team - wanting to see certain players develope - loyalty does build up - loyalty that you just cannot have towards Crest toothpaste.

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 10:22 AM
Also there is a certain thing involved here - love of your team, being a fan of your team - wanting to see certain players develope - loyalty does build up - loyalty that you just cannot have towards Crest toothpaste.
I came back for posts just like this. Way to take what I said and make it sound a lot better.

chrisjacobs7
02-11-2010, 11:16 AM
You all are making it seem like if we don't renew our season tickets we aren't real fans... if I don't renew my tickets it doesn't mean I've given up on the team or I don't care anymore, it just means I think the current product isn't worth shelling out the money to watch in person.

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 11:19 AM
You all are making it seem like if we don't renew our season tickets we aren't real fans... if I don't renew my tickets it doesn't mean I've given up on the team or I don't care anymore, it just means I think the current product isn't worth shelling out the money to watch in person.
I can understand that, but basing your decision over the coach or the players is the problem. It becomes a little more than just having that piece of paper in your pocket with a seat number on it.

Anthem
02-11-2010, 11:48 AM
I won't be getting League Pass again until Obie leaves, although that's not a ton of financial incentive from the Pacers' perspective.

Roaming Gnome
02-11-2010, 12:02 PM
Obie or not... I'll probably renew because I do enjoy going to the games to the point that it outweighs my anger about O'Brien coming back. Anyway, my 8 year old is starting to take to going to the games and I'm happy to be bringing another young fan into the fold.

Bottom line, somebody has to be there to wear the brown paper bag with the eye holes cut out and BOO very loudly!

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 12:07 PM
You all are making it seem like if we don't renew our season tickets we aren't real fans... if I don't renew my tickets it doesn't mean I've given up on the team or I don't care anymore, it just means I think the current product isn't worth shelling out the money to watch in person.

Not sure if you were directing your comments toward me or not. I never go within 100 miles of who is a "real fan" discussion. if you don't think it is worth the money then don't pay the money to go see the team play - no problem with that at all.

My previous comments in this thread was addressing a different topic

graphic-er
02-11-2010, 12:20 PM
i've got one the best 2 seats in the balcony and it took me 2 years to get them, i'm not giving them up over a bad season, and a bad coach. If anything I'll work up to some great seats in the club level. I'll be rewarded in the next few years when I get to watch a game 7 from those seats.

BillS
02-11-2010, 12:37 PM
You all are making it seem like if we don't renew our season tickets we aren't real fans... if I don't renew my tickets it doesn't mean I've given up on the team or I don't care anymore, it just means I think the current product isn't worth shelling out the money to watch in person.

Not touching the "real fan" moniker.

However, at a certain point people need to make a decision whether the team as an entity is something they care about having in the city. Sometimes buying tickets is about more than just the immediate gratification of a win or a good team, it is about making sure the team is able to stay in town long enough to <i>become</i> that good team.

On the one hand, money talks and BS walks, so I can see how expressing dissatisfaction with ticket $ is appropriate and - in many ways - the only only real way to get the attention of ownership.

On the other hand, withholding money may get a change you don't want - ownership changes that take the team elsewhere. Is the consequence of that change worth the noise you make by withholding? Is there a way to make noise while having more control over the outcome (probably not at our level)? Is there a way to make noise that has a smaller impact (going from full to half season or going to cheaper seats)?

It may go without saying that, barring economic problems, I intend to have season tickets again as long as there is a team in Indianapolis.

Hicks
02-11-2010, 01:03 PM
The more I think about it, I think I'm at a point where if I had the money to do it, I'd always pay for my full season tickets just to have a seat waiting for me. That way the franchise would get my support in general, I'd always have access to the games, and if for whatever reason I was turned off, I could just choose to stay home.

Unfortunately, money is certainly an issue for the foreseeable future.

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 01:05 PM
Unfortunately, money is certainly an issue for the foreseeable future.
And the bright side is that it's not Jim O'Brien's fault.

Jonathan
02-11-2010, 01:21 PM
As a former season ticket holder, I'm in no hurry to purchase them again... regardless of what happens with Jim.

Larry... on the other hand...

But current life circumstances probably would keep me from buying tickets again even if Bird were gone.

Why you hate on Larry? He is doing a good job IMO. Look @ our expiring contracts next season & the fact we have a top ten pick has me hoping for the best. If you do not like the way he drafts that is up for debate. Give him credit for not panicking and making bad trades. He also has signed D Jones, S Jones, E Watson & Luther Head. All quality players for their contracts. I would rather have Larry Bird than Joe Dumars.

chrisjacobs7
02-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Not sure if you were directing your comments toward me or not. I never go within 100 miles of who is a "real fan" discussion. if you don't think it is worth the money then don't pay the money to go see the team play - no problem with that at all.

My previous comments in this thread was addressing a different topic

Wasn't directed at you... I was just getting that general feel from multiple people. I realize ultimately that the Pacers won't blink if I don't renew my $215 package. But as a college student, spending that type of money for tickets plus the gas I use (I live 1hr+ away), isn't worth it to me because of the frustration I get from watching a team that is poorly coached and at times appears to be giving less than 100% effort. If I lived closer and if I had a job, I probably would suffer through it and keep going to games... but in my current situation it just isn't worth it.

Pacergeek
02-11-2010, 02:09 PM
i agree with jonathan. dumars is horrible. he should have been fired years ago for drafting Darko 2nd overall. I also think the Hawks GM needs to be fired for drafting Marvin Williams over Chris Paul. Bird has never made any kind of draft mistake that significant.

kellogg
02-11-2010, 02:37 PM
I want to comment on your general point - not about the Pacers. I hear this argument from time to time over the years. Sure if I go to Walmart and I buy a particular brand of toothpaste and I don't like it, next time I go to Walmart I won't think twice about switching brands and I'll keep switching brands until I find one I like and the the price I like. This type of thing is something everyone does all the time.

(I just saw your comment about buying a car - still not the same thing because there are so many brands of cars to buy - there is only one NBA team in town) If there were only Hondas in town and it was Hondas or nothing - sure I'd buy a Honda if I wanted a car. if I want to go to NBA games it is pacers or nothing

so I don't see how what you are saying campares to following the Pacers. We don't have another team in town to follow - it isn't like we can decide oh well we don't like the pacers product, so we can buy tickets across the street and go to Pistons games or if we don't like the Pistons we can buy tickets to the Cavs, or lakers.......I think you understand my point. Pacers are the only NBA game in town - either you follow them or you don't - you can't change brands - so comparing it to toothpastes or most other products is just not a good comparison.

If you like NBA basketball either you go to Pacers games or you don't go to any NBA games - that is the choice here. If you don't like Crest, you can buy Colgate no problem.

Beyond that, just because the team doesn't win a at good rate or play the style you like, or coached by the man you love - that doesn't mean you don't enjoy going to the games. it could be more of a social thing for you, it could be that you just love NBA basketball and you love seeing the Pacers whether they win or lose and you love seeing the other teams and other players - whatever - you just love NBA basketball - so you continue to go

Also there is a certain thing involved here - love of your team, being a fan of your team - wanting to see certain players develope - loyalty does build up - loyalty that you just cannot have towards Crest toothpaste.

Always enjoy reading your posts UB, but I think you can carry this point too far. I've been a Pacers fan since I was a kid (late 60s at least) and suffered through the bad years and enjoyed them through the good years. It's not that I am a fair-weather fan at all...but my point is if the perception is that the team's owners are too cheap to bring in the necessary talent (not accusing the Simons of this mind you, just a statement in general), the GM/President is too inept to judge talent or make deals, and the players and/or coach are just lazy, don't hustle, play selfish ball, or get into trouble with the law, I don't think it's at all inconsistent to be a fan yet not spend my hard-earned money to watch this mess...or to pay for their salaries, which is ultimately what I'm doing when I go to games, pay for $7.00 sodas and and hot dogs.

If I'm working my tail off to make a living, I don't think I'm at all being a fair weather fan when I refuse to support a 'regime' or players who I perceive aren't working as hard as I am...and they're getting a heck of a lot more money than I am.

I think as fans we absolutely have an effect on how management runs the team. Think about it, if the fans were packing Conseco a few years ago, with or without Tinsleys or Jackson's shoot-em-ups or strip club ventures, do you seriously think they would have been moved? Doubtful. If Tinsley had been playing 82 games a year and averaging 10 assists per game, the most he would have gotten was a wrist slap. These guys were all moved because the fans left...in droves.

I'm just saying that management would absolutely take no action if 18K people were attending nightly and they would sit content with mediocrity.

I can support my team without "spending money" to watch bad basketball and equally bad coaching.

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 02:50 PM
I've been a Pacers fan since I was a kid (late 60s at least)
You could've just said since their inception. :p

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 02:52 PM
Always enjoy reading your posts UB, but I think you can carry this point too far. I've been a Pacers fan since I was a kid (late 60s at least) and suffered through the bad years and enjoyed them through the good years. It's not that I am a fair-weather fan at all...but my point is if the perception is that the team's owners are too cheap to bring in the necessary talent (not accusing the Simons of this mind you, just a statement in general), the GM/President is too inept to judge talent or make deals, and the players and/or coach are just lazy, don't hustle, play selfish ball, or get into trouble with the law, I don't think it's at all inconsistent to be a fan yet not spend my hard-earned money to watch this mess...or to pay for their salaries, which is ultimately what I'm doing when I go to games, pay for $7.00 sodas and and hot dogs.

If I'm working my tail off to make a living, I don't think I'm at all being a fair weather fan when I refuse to support a 'regime' or players who I perceive aren't working as hard as I am...and they're getting a heck of a lot more money than I am.

I think as fans we absolutely have an effect on how management runs the team. Think about it, if the fans were packing Conseco a few years ago, with or without Tinsleys or Jackson's shoot-em-ups or strip club ventures, do you seriously think they would have been moved? Doubtful. If Tinsley had been playing 82 games a year and averaging 10 assists per game, the most he would have gotten was a wrist slap. These guys were all moved because the fans left...in droves.

I'm just saying that management would absolutely take no action if 18K people were attending nightly and they would sit content with mediocrity.

I can support my team without "spending money" to watch bad basketball and equally bad coaching.

all excellent points. However we are talking about different things. i agree with your points though

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 03:52 PM
There are two factors for me next year:

1) O'Brien returning (or not)
2) How we do in the draft (not where, but who we pick)

Money is lined up to be applied to games, but 1 and 2 will definitely play a role in whether or not I return.

If Jim's back, I'm not sure I want to be.
I don't think the draft pick could keep me as a half-season, but if it was an exciting kid like Turner or Wall, or some crafty multi-1st situation along with a solid 2nd pick (like Ndiaye) then I would want to show up and see them grow.

But I wouldn't want to commit too much because I don't want to be forced to sit through another year of confusing, muddled direction.



It's hard not to continue to reflect on how the season started with Mel Daniels. Maybe he was the lucky one.



BTW, this roughly translates to them losing 25 balcony season ticket holders, so it's not some cheap token stand.

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 04:30 PM
Voting and politics have a significantly higher impact on your daily lives than an NBA team would, hopefully. If it doesn't, then I feel for you.
Not financially they don't.

Duke, a car payment is not something you do just to be loyal. That's like staying with a cheating wife just because she's your wife and always has been. Hey, time to be loyal.

At some point you have to keep in mind what the actual relationship is. The team isn't your best friend, they charge you money to be near them, they charge a TON of money to eat at games, they are in the entertainment industry.

Part of their schtick is the loyalty angle, and I can buy into that to a degree. But they have to EARN THAT LOYALTY.

A lot of people have said in this thread that they'd stick with Roy or other players during losing streaks because they understand their growth and see them trying to become better.

A lot of us are entertained by a good EFFORT, a sense of direction, and can overlook a lack of ability. I feel a loyalty to the players, even to Troy to be honest. I don't dislike him and I enjoy his game when he's on and being applied well. I'm fine to come out and support Tyler kicking butt and making me look dumb.

I'm not even anti-JOB as a person. I'm anti the comments, attitude, playing style, strategy and so on that seems extremely flawed. This is NO DIFFERENT than people that refused to pay to watch Jackson, Ron, Tinsley or JO play, and in those cases it typically was personal (didn't like who they were as people).


Next year I'll get hardwood floors installed and JOB can ride Roy and Rush into the ground all year long. I'll be happy, Bird will be happy, everyone's happy.



My advice to Bird: be patient with fans, just a couple 50 wins seasons and we'll start to buy tickets again, he's just gotta hang in there with our non-buying for a few more years.

Oh, it doesn't work that way? Hmm, I thought the team was LOYAL to us. They'd never leave the market if we weren't doing what they want us to do, ie buying tickets and merchandise.

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 04:37 PM
Not financially they don't.


Well, to keep this topic from going off hand, and to stay away from the whole politics rule, I was a lot less general with that statement.

My point was that even I of all people should know where priorities lie. The Pacers are a major part of my life, but just not the first.

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 04:38 PM
(I just saw your comment about buying a car - still not the same thing because there are so many brands of cars to buy - there is only one NBA team in town)
This is one I'm really tired of. NBA teams are not competing companies, they are franchises of the SAME COMPANY.

The NBA is McDonalds, and the Pacers are the McDonalds around the corner from your house.

When you don't like McDonalds you quit spending money there. You go to Wendy's or cook at home more or whatever. You don't drive to a different McDonalds.

If at some point the product at one franchise is drastically out of whack with the rest, the home office usually steps in to ensure that the quality is brought into check with the company image. The NBA has measures to help ensure some consistency, such as the draft and the salary cap.


So if I stop supporting the Pacers I'm not going over to the Hawks, I'm going over to the movie theater, joining a gym, improving my home, or some other interest to fill that void. Maybe I start going to hockey games and buy the NHL package.

And if I love the NBA enough that I continue to support the product in general but not the local franchise, then eventually that franchise closes down. It happens all the time with franchise stores like Starbucks or McDonalds.

Unfortunately for us the NBA isn't that worried about ensuring that a franchise always exists in this market.

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 05:35 PM
would rather have Larry Bird than Joe Dumars.


Up until a couple years ago Dumars was doing an excellent job. How many CHAMPIONSHIPS as GM does Bird have? Bird hasn't even EVER had a winning season as a GM.

And YES, I'm not a Bird the GM fan.

BillS
02-11-2010, 05:35 PM
Unfortunately for us the NBA isn't that worried about ensuring that a franchise always exists in this market.

Unfortunately for me, I am worried about it. Therefore, withdrawing my support seems a lot like cutting off my nose to spite my face.

If that McDonalds (oh, I wish you'd used a different analogy :)) is the ONLY place to eat that I am able to get to, then not going there doesn't just mean changing to another place to eat, it means I never eat anywhere but at home. The McDonalds closing or me not going has the same exact effect on my life. If, however, eating out is important to me then I might very well still go to that McDonalds and try to use my money to steer them in the direction I want.

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 05:41 PM
i agree with jonathan. dumars is horrible. he should have been fired years ago for drafting Darko 2nd overall. I also think the Hawks GM needs to be fired for drafting Marvin Williams over Chris Paul. Bird has never made any kind of draft mistake that significant.


You are forgetting Bird has himself and this franchise in a position to made that type of a mistake this coming draft. Bird is a terrible evaluator of talent. I'd trust Dumars and Zeke any day over Bird when it comes to drafting.

Oh BTW, BK drafted Marvin Williams, and he was fired years later.

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 05:49 PM
Well, to keep this topic from going off hand, and to stay away from the whole politics rule, I was a lot less general with that statement.

My point was that even I of all people should know where priorities lie. The Pacers are a major part of my life, but just not the first.
And I'm saying that the cost of the Pacers for me is slightly worse than the impact of a major political issue like the property tax increase.

We always end up in this spot with this discussion of "loyalty" and "who's the best fan", etc. But there is no getting around the fact that each person's "sacrifice" is relative, and can't even be measured in absolute expenditure.

If you make 25K and spend 3K on games that's not the same as making 200K and spending 3K. Or spending $400 a year on the same income as someone spending $4000 a year.

You don't get more "rights" as a fan, it's an entertainment choice, but at the same time a person that's gone way out on a limb to be involved with the team is going to naturally be more worked up if they don't like the way things are going.

You can say "you gotta stay loyal" but then I could be saying to you "why aren't you as loyal as me right now". I could have bought season tickets for a decade rather than for just this season. I made a choice that you didn't make.

Does that make me more loyal? It does if you are using someone not buying tickets next year as a sign of loyalty.

Trophy
02-11-2010, 05:54 PM
Regardless of what happens this offseason I am renewing my current package. I'm not going to abandon the team in any fashion just because I don't like the coach or whatever.

As for the bonus question, the Pacers just need to stay in Indiana, and I'll continue to show up.

Hope that stands in 4 or so years from now. Hopefully we'll be a better team when that time comes.

Naptown_Seth
02-11-2010, 05:54 PM
Unfortunately for me, I am worried about it. Therefore, withdrawing my support seems a lot like cutting off my nose to spite my face.

If that McDonalds (oh, I wish you'd used a different analogy :)) is the ONLY place to eat that I am able to get to, then not going there doesn't just mean changing to another place to eat, it means I never eat anywhere but at home. The McDonalds closing or me not going has the same exact effect on my life. If, however, eating out is important to me then I might very well still go to that McDonalds and try to use my money to steer them in the direction I want.
Hey, I get this angle, but at what point do you stop going? If the manager punches you in the face when each time you order fries? If they raise the price of nuggets to $20 for 6?

There is ALWAYS a line. If it's not a good option then is it really the only option, or is it actually already a non-option?

Having a monopoly on the market doesn't have to mean abusing the customer.


How many of you ride the bus? What, don't you support public transportation? Don't you realize that the more you ride the bus the more they will invest in it and the better it will become? I guess you guys just aren't loyal to your fellow citizens, and because of you we might end up not having public transportation which is the only game in town for a lot of people. Don't you care about them?

And that's not in green. That's serious, though I am not a bus rider either and could be held to the same accountability.

kellogg
02-11-2010, 06:12 PM
You could've just said since their inception. :p

Ouch...that really made me feel old!!! :laugh:

BillS
02-11-2010, 06:18 PM
I'm not saying anything about "loyal", I'm asking how important the provider is to you over and above an individual experience.

If you generally support the idea of public transportation but don't really care to use it, it doesn't matter if that decision is because you choose not to or because public transportation doesn't exist for you.

If you generally support the idea of an NBA team in Indiana but don't really care to go to any more games, it doesn't matter if that decision is because you choose not to go or because there is no team to go to.

Sure, everyone has a line, but the result is more than just, "I'll go back if it gets better". It could be, "I'll never have &lt;x&gt; to go to again because it is gone."

If the line gets crossed, maybe that consequence isn't important to someone, but it needs to at least be considered if it is a possibility. Which, I'm sorry to say, is certainly the case here.

Bball
02-11-2010, 06:40 PM
Does that make me more loyal? It does if you are using someone not buying tickets next year as a sign of loyalty.[/B]

So is loyalty supporting a badly flawed product and in effect enabling it? Or is loyalty demanding better and refusing to support a badly flawed product?

This is not O'Brien's first year so people bailing now (or in the recent past) aren't making rash decisions IMHO.

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 06:48 PM
The decision to not spend one's money on Pacer tickets in the future does not make them a fair weather fan. BB is an entertainment and nothing more. Deciding to get more bang for your buck spending it elsewhere than on the Pacers doesn't make you less of a fan. It just says you want more value for your money than the Pacers are giving you. Lets face it every poster on here has a budget they have to live within whether it's a student, a retiree, or someoneone in between. How can Bird ask others to be patient when the value of the product he is putting out isn't the best value for other's entertainment dollars? If companies can't give away free tickets to Pacers games to their customers, how does the hierarchy of the company justify buying tickets that no one wants b/c the value of entertainment the Pacers supply is substandard? Why expect John P. Citizen, with less money to spend, feel a loyalty to the Pacers when the value being offered by the Pacers is less than the value offered by the Colts, IU, Purdue, theaters, etc? Not buying tickets just doesn't make one a fair weather fan. It just says they want value for their hard earned dollars, and Bird and Pacers aren't delivering it to them.

the jaddler
02-11-2010, 10:06 PM
I will say this, i had planned on getting a mini season plan, really wanted, figure out how i was going it afford it. Really just wanted to get in to going to games support the team and such. I really like going to games have went to a couple this year thanks to some season ticket holders. But this is why i will not be buying this year. Its not only because JOB is coach, its because larry lets him be coach and they front office let larry let JOB be coach. Its the fact that all the fans know what we are doing on the court is wrong, the front office knows its wrong but yet they have not acknowledged it or said they will fix it, other than this is still part of the "plan" that larry has. Well if part of your plan is loosing revune and fans( by the hundreds), and being a joke to the point that your own players are speaking out against the team....then i think you have a major problem.

Its like a cop thats on duty watching someone get shot in the head in the daylight and then going up and shaking his hand and then thanking him. Now i all ready know what your all thinking, man this guy is being way over dramatic....well i might be but this is how i fell about it and how i view it.

This is something else that playing into my thinking. Not only am i pay for the tickets at what ever price range but i also am paying for parking, which adds up over time, then i have to pay for gas to get there which takes me roughly 50 minutes, then theres food if i dont eat before or after the game at home, then if i wish to pay for something to eat or drink at the fieldhouse......so for the next season i will say no thank you.

Not saying i wont buy to go to a game here and there next season but i wont make a ticket holder commitment!

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 11:16 PM
You can say "you gotta stay loyal" but then I could be saying to you "why aren't you as loyal as me right now". I could have bought season tickets for a decade rather than for just this season. I made a choice that you didn't make.

Does that make me more loyal? It does if you are using someone not buying tickets next year as a sign of loyalty.
I didn't say anything to you about loyalty. I was just saying where my priorities lie and where the Pacers fall into them.

With all due respect, but you confuse me sometimes.

HC
02-11-2010, 11:42 PM
Unfortunately I do not currently live close enough to be a season ticket holder. However, if I did coaching would have no impact on my decision to return year after year. I would renew next year for several reasons...

The maturation, or lack thereof, of Danny Granger.

The development of Hibbert, Rush, Hansbrough, and Price.

Last but not least, the pride of being a Pacer fan and the privilege of watching professional basketball being played in the best arena in the league.

duke dynamite
02-11-2010, 11:50 PM
Unfortunately I do not currently live close enough to be a season ticket holder.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you live in Muncie, right?

HC
02-12-2010, 12:50 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but you live in Muncie, right?

About 20 minutes north of it. With kids, school, and the wife's work schedule it would be next to impossible. A mini pack would be possible but I would have to hand pick games and it would have to be on the weekends. Perhaps I should not have said I didn't live close enough because I actually do I guess. It would just be difficult, and I don't have an abundance of money. I've made it to two games so far this year, and I am coming down for Winning Time. Speaking of which, is GA6 for that event the same as section 6?

chrisjacobs7
02-12-2010, 09:07 AM
Speaking of which, is GA6 for that event the same as section 6?

I believe all tickets for that are General Admission... I also see you live in Hartford City, I go to school at Taylor in Upland. The drive is pretty far so I understand what you're staying, get's to be a hassle for me too sometimes.

duke dynamite
02-12-2010, 09:44 AM
Speaking of which, is GA6 for that event the same as section 6?
Nope, first-come first serve seating into the Fieldhouse. The ticketing system requires some form of syntax in order to print.

HC
02-12-2010, 09:48 AM
I believe all tickets for that are General Admission... I also see you live in Hartford City, I go to school at Taylor in Upland. The drive is pretty far so I understand what you're staying, get's to be a hassle for me too sometimes.

I already have to drive to Ivy Tech in Muncie several times a week. That is over a quarter tank of gas in and of itself. Add in 2 or 3 trips to Indy a week, and not only am I left without the time but the money also. It just isn't feasable. At least not until I get out of school which will be a few years. My wife has to get up at 4:30 to get ready for work, no way I can come walking in the door at midnight half of the week. She couldn't hanldle it, and neither could I. I have to be up at 6:30 to get kids off to school.

One of my teacher at Ivy Tech is also a teacher at Taylor.lol

Yes it is GA, but I assumed that you would be assigned a seat. My tickets say GA6. Are you implying that this is meaningless and that it is first come first served?

BillS
02-12-2010, 09:50 AM
By definition GA (General Admission) means no assigned seats.

HC
02-12-2010, 10:05 AM
Nope, first-come first serve seating into the Fieldhouse. The ticketing system requires some form of syntax in order to print.

I swear this post wasn't here when I replied to cjacobs...hmmmm... I figured it was just first come first serve from a ticket buying perspective. I didn't figure it would carry over to the event as well. I know it does at concerts and stuff, but this seemed like a bit of a different event to me. Oh well, I am glad to know this. Now I know to get down there early. Did you make it to any of the caravan stops Duke?

HC
02-12-2010, 10:10 AM
By definition GA (General Admission) means no assigned seats.

True, but there are often assigned areas. I noticed on my ticket is says price level 2. I wonder what that is about? My biggest problem was finding the right seating chart, and when I finally did it still wasn't very clear to me. I guess it makes sense now that I know it is first come first served.

duke dynamite
02-12-2010, 10:11 AM
I swear this post wasn't here when I replied to cjacobs...hmmmm... I figured it was just first come first serve from a ticket buying perspective. I didn't figure it would carry over to the event as well. I know it does at concerts and stuff, but this seemed like a bit of a different event to me. Oh well, I am glad to know this. Now I know to get down there early. Did you make it to any of the caravan stops Duke?
Since I work in Bloomington I stopped at the College Mall event. I didn't stand in line to get autographs, though.

So we don't derail this thread, go ahead and add me to either facebook or twitter if you haven't already, or just PM me. My links are in my signature. Just click on one or both.

BillS
02-12-2010, 10:40 AM
True, but there are often assigned areas. I noticed on my ticket is says price level 2. I wonder what that is about? My biggest problem was finding the right seating chart, and when I finally did it still wasn't very clear to me. I guess it makes sense now that I know it is first come first served.

There is a VIP price level that is umpty-thousand dollars for a table of 10.

duke dynamite
02-12-2010, 10:46 AM
There is a VIP price level that is umpty-thousand dollars for a table of 10.
I think we discussed that. It's $2500 for ten people. You get a table and drinks, you get to walk on the red carpet, 10 autographed posters of the movie by Reggie, and a group photo with Reggie.

McKeyFan
02-12-2010, 12:21 PM
I don't live in Indy, but if I did . . .

I just might entertain the idea of risking that the franchise change cities, if the product continued to be so flawed, so un-fundamental, so non-traditionally bad, so unlike the culture of Indiana and everything it stands for basketball-wise.

I makes sense to me that the fans in Indy would complain, argue, protest, and even boycott until the basketball product resembled the high standards of their tradition.

MagicRat
02-12-2010, 12:22 PM
I makes sense to me....

I'm sure you do......;)

duke dynamite
02-12-2010, 12:51 PM
I makes sense to me that the fans in Indy would complain, argue, protest, and even boycott until the basketball product resembled the high standards of their tradition.
That's because the tradition of "Indiana Basketball" isn't centralized to just Indianapolis. It is spread out to the entire state. With the exception to some high schools, there isn't much "tradition" in the Circle City.

BillS
02-12-2010, 01:57 PM
... makes sense to me that the fans in Indy would complain, argue, protest, and even boycott until the basketball product resembled the high standards of their tradition.

I really don't accept the idea that "no team at all" fits that definition, especially when you toss out 40+ years over 3-5 years of real problems.

Kind of like saying "the paint job on that house down the street doesn't fit with the character of the neighborhood. Therefore, we're dynamiting the house."

Trophy
02-12-2010, 02:00 PM
If the protesting continues then pretty soon we'll be relocated to a new city if we can't get people to the games.

I just hope we stay and having to relocate is the least of our troubles.

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2010, 02:05 PM
I didn't say anything to you about loyalty. I was just saying where my priorities lie and where the Pacers fall into them.

With all due respect, but you confuse me sometimes.
With all due respect right back, give me a break.
I confuse you? Try remembering your own angle within the context of a debate...

Regardless of what happens this offseason I am renewing my current package. I'm not going to abandon the team in any fashion just because I don't like the coach or whatever.
Now we can play the BS semantics game of "technically I didn't use the word 'loyal'" but I'm not having it.

Everyone knows the implication behind ABANDONING someone versus being LOYAL to them. Cripes.

"I just said I was going to abandon you, that doesn't mean I'm not going to keep being loyal". Does that make any sense to you?

I believe you were the very first one to go with this angle in the thread, you brought out the big guns of "gotta stand by the team no matter what" angle, not the rest of us. You want to use that point you should be prepared to defend it.

BillS
02-12-2010, 02:17 PM
With all due respect right back, give me a break.
I confuse you? Try remembering your own angle within the context of a debate...

Now we can play the BS semantics game of "technically I didn't use the word 'loyal'" but I'm not having it.

Everyone knows the implication behind ABANDONING someone versus being LOYAL to them. Cripes.

"I just said I was going to abandon you, that doesn't mean I'm not going to keep being loyal". Does that make any sense to you?

I believe you were the very first one to go with this angle in the thread, you brought out the big guns of "gotta stand by the team no matter what" angle, not the rest of us. You want to use that point you should be prepared to defend it.

I think you knew perfectly well what he was saying, you chose to steer it the way you wanted because it was easier to argue.

The point might have been better made to say that you don't consider certain changes in monetary or fan support as abandoning, instead of going right for the same extreme and claiming that he was saying that everyone has to do everything or they aren't loyal.

Any time you substitute his word (abandoning) for your words (not being loyal) you introduce differences in meaning that make the argument pointless. Shouldn't do that until you've established that both sides really do mean the same thing by the two phrases.

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2010, 02:40 PM
I really don't accept the idea that "no team at all" fits that definition, especially when you toss out 40+ years over 3-5 years of real problems.

Kind of like saying "the paint job on that house down the street doesn't fit with the character of the neighborhood. Therefore, we're dynamiting the house."
What's the point of having a neighborhood character that's ruined by one house? So a bunch of $300K houses are now worth $200K because one jerk put up disgusting siding that ruins the neighborhood, and your response is "let's keep paying him to stay in on our street because if we don't then he'll blow up his house and what will we have then?" I'll tell you what you'll have, a better neighborhood free of the local jerk taking advantage of you and making your life worse.


Do you really want to have a poorly run product just so you can say you have one? Isn't the point of an entertainment venue/company to ENTERTAIN you?

Gee, whatever we do let's not run the crappy entertainment out of town because then we'll be stuck not spending money for crappy entertainment.


What you are doing is confusing the issue with the idea that the team will then get better. If Herb Simon is so dumb that he rides out this situation till no fans show up, then moves or sells the team, only to then have the front office or coaching changed which draws in fans, then we are screwed.

See, the team isn't going to get better by moving. They'd get better by making TEAM CHANGES, and they can do that right here in Indy.

If you are going to fix things then you don't need to leave. Just fix them. If you aren't going to fix them then the new city isn't going to come out to games past year 1-2 either.


It's a lot easier to fix the way the team is run than it is to move/sell the team and hope the new fans accept the stuff we are sick of.

Memphis hasn't been selling out games just because it left Vancouver. Do you think Bulls fans would still be coming to games if Tim Floyd was still coaching? You don't think Mike Dunleavy (along with quite a history of crap) as Clippers coach was affecting their bottom line when Clips tix sell for 2-3 times less the FACE of Lakers tickets (let alone scalping) in the same building?

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2010, 03:10 PM
I think you knew perfectly well what he was saying, you chose to steer it the way you wanted because it was easier to argue.
He's saying what I said he was.

Treat me like I'm dumb and explain what ABANDON means versus LOYALTY (or lack thereof), show us all how my interpretation was wrong. You imply these things are totally different, but you don't explain how they are.

It doesn't matter if I'm a jerk (I'll even concede this so we don't waste any more bandwidth debating it, I'm an ahole) or not in terms of a person's intention when they characterize an action as "ABANDONING" something.

I'll be happy to hear the replacement word in the original post that maintains a sensible meaning and carries a connotation that would be at least somewhat implied by the original phrasing if only I wasn't trying to "twist" it.

BillS
02-12-2010, 03:31 PM
He's saying what I said he was.

Treat me like I'm dumb and explain what ABANDON means versus LOYALTY (or lack thereof), show us all how my interpretation was wrong. You imply these things are totally different, but you don't explain how they are.

It doesn't matter if I'm a jerk (I'll even concede this so we don't waste any more bandwidth debating it, I'm an ahole) or not in terms of a person's intention when they characterize an action as "ABANDONING" something.

I'll be happy to hear the replacement word in the original post that maintains a sensible meaning and carries a connotation that would be at least somewhat implied by the original phrasing if only I wasn't trying to "twist" it.

I don't know why I am doing this, I have people all over the world willing to pay for the privilege of abusing me...

You can ABANDON a piece without ABANDONING the whole. Duke chooses not to ABANDON any of the pieces. To reply saying that he is thus accusing others of being disLOYAL to the whole isn't continuing the argument he is making, it is introducing a new argument hidden in a "no-win" context.

The intersection of all A with not-B is not necessarily null.

I can ABANDON a course of action without being disLOYAL to the goal.

You of all people know that Duke goes hyperbolic. To address the argument as if the hyperbole is a valid state of being and then jump on others when they try to clarify it is really just a way of arranging the meanings so they all match what is in your head instead of what is in others. That way, no matter what anyone says, you "win".

That's a great way to have a rant but it doesn't do much in terms of finding a solution - which is, just how much does having a team mean vs. having a losing team? Which we are discussing in another reply so I'll address it directly.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2010, 03:32 PM
I go to school at Taylor in Upland.

:woot2:

BillS
02-12-2010, 03:56 PM
What you are doing is confusing the issue with the idea that the team will then get better. If Herb Simon is so dumb that he rides out this situation till no fans show up, then moves or sells the team, only to then have the front office or coaching changed which draws in fans, then we are screwed.

See, the team isn't going to get better by moving. They'd get better by making TEAM CHANGES, and they can do that right here in Indy.

If you are going to fix things then you don't need to leave. Just fix them. If you aren't going to fix them then the new city isn't going to come out to games past year 1-2 either.

The problem is if the team DOES get better but the withdrawal of fan support means they move just as the improvement begins to be seen. See our heroes the OKC Thunder for that example.

What really bugs me is the number of people (not you, Seth, but you jumped into it) saying "Tank! Lose! Suck! We'll get a great draft pick!" followed by "I'm not spending any money on this team until they win". How in the world does that help the team make the "right" decision? Let's put the egos aside and admit that it is often not a matter of "this team sucks" but a matter of "this team/coach/front office isn't doing it the way I want them to do it."

In the house analogy, I wasn't talking about someone else's house - in which case my desire is to have it look good and I really don't care about the difference between it looking good or simply not being there at all. I'm talking about MY house, where for reasons of shelter I very much care about the difference.

The viewpoint dichotomy here seems to be between people who take the presence or absence of the team personally no matter how good they are and those who don't see any difference between a bad team and no team - or, perhaps, see no team as preferable to a bad team. THESE ARE NOT VALUE JUDGMENTS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, THEY ARE JUST DIFFERENT WAYS OF LOOKING AT THINGS. THEY ARE SUBJECTIVE AND ARE THEREFORE NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE. THEY ARE, HOWEVER, REAL AND, FOR THE MOST PART, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

In the grand scheme of things, sucking for 3-5 years is nothing. Those great teams who are championship contenders like the Hawks and the Cavs and the Bulls have sucked for far longer, with just as many frustrating dead-ends in the middle. For the same fans chiding people who believed the fanbase couldn't stand more than 3 years of rebuilding to then throw their hands up in surrender after not much more than that seems odd.

Think of the middle book of the trilogy. No matter what the writer does, they always suck, because there's neither the excitement of the beginning or the satisfaction of seeing the end coming. There's just middle game.

I'm not saying everyone should buy season tickets, I'm not saying everyone should spend their entire disposable income on the Pacers, I'm not saying people should try to scrape up money to donate to some "save the team" fund. What I'm saying is that actions may have higher level consequences, and if the team goes away the same folks who wouldn't go to the games during a period when they are struggling better not cry about how no one in Indianapolis can support an NBA team.

Unclebuck
02-12-2010, 04:00 PM
What really bugs me is the number of people (not you, Seth, but you jumped into it) saying "Tank! Lose! Suck! We'll get a great draft pick!" followed by "I'm not spending any money on this team until they win". How in the world does that help the team make the "right" decision? Let's put the egos aside and admit that it is often not a matter of "this team sucks" but a matter of "this team/coach/front office isn't doing it the way I want them to do it."



Post of the year so far

Peck
02-12-2010, 04:02 PM
This thread needs some culture.

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duke dynamite
02-12-2010, 04:06 PM
This thread needs some culture.


Oh Peck, just having you grace us with your presence is all the culture I need.

MagicRat
02-12-2010, 04:32 PM
I was just thinking this thread needed a dollop of malaise......

Peck
02-12-2010, 04:54 PM
I was just thinking this thread needed a dollop of malaise......

There seems to be plenty of that to go around.:D

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2010, 05:24 PM
Post of the year so far
For all our arguing, we are in agreement that tanking is a crap idea.

And as I've said, I don't mind losing for a reason, ie development that will pay off later.

Pacersfan46
02-12-2010, 05:46 PM
What really bugs me is the number of people (not you, Seth, but you jumped into it) saying "Tank! Lose! Suck! We'll get a great draft pick!" followed by "I'm not spending any money on this team until they win". How in the world does that help the team make the "right" decision? Let's put the egos aside and admit that it is often not a matter of "this team sucks" but a matter of "this team/coach/front office isn't doing it the way I want them to do it."

Guess I'm weird, I want the high draft pick, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be a first time season ticket holder next year. :laugh:

I finally got a friend suckered into getting season tickets with me. Mwahahaha

-- Steve --

duke dynamite
02-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Seth, at the time I was just confused about your syntax but after reading over it again, and reading Bill's defense, I just need to clarify that this is how I am handling the OP. This is my choice and why I chose to go that route. I said what I was going to do. I never told anyone to do that.

I'm not putting down anyone, or saying that anyone is wrong. Bill was right, and I should've been more clear, but I'M not putting this team on a shelf because I feel that something is going wrong, I'm just sticking with them through this.

I also won't go as far to call you an *******, you're entitled to your opinion. Otherwise you've been generally friendly towards me. Now you like myself are the type of person who stands firmly on their beliefs with no letting up...even if you are wrong in one or more aspects and will argue your way until someone believed you were right.