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View Full Version : So can we talk about Dunleavy for a bit?



Anthem
02-10-2010, 01:30 PM
Around the new year several of us were commenting about how terrible Dun looked, and the response from the board at large was that the guy was still playing himself into game shape and trying to get his conditioning back.

Well, it's been a month and the dude's no better. If anything, he's worse. Check the game logs:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/mike_dunleavy/game_by_game_stats.html

He's not just playing unathletic basketball, he's playing BAD basketball. His fundamentals have abandoned him. His fire is nonexistent. What is the deal? Anybody have a theory?

sportfireman
02-10-2010, 01:32 PM
Not wanting to play for the coach. I think the player are finally fed up with Flim and its showing in their play.

graphic-er
02-10-2010, 01:35 PM
He sucks, one of the most over paid players in the league. i can't believe anyone would want to resign him after next year. They guy just simply does not have anything left. He doesn't play a lick of defense. He probably is a really smart player, just doesn't have the ability to take advantage of his smarts.

Boy did Mullin ever pull a fast one on us.

Anthem
02-10-2010, 01:37 PM
His numbers this month actually aren't as bad as I thought... he's shooting 39% from the field, which is (believe it or not) higher than I expected. 2-12 from range doesn't help, though.

He shot 42% last month, mostly bolstered by 1 good week. Outside of that, his percentages must be abysmal.

Putnam
02-10-2010, 01:38 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WFsVtCoVVXQ/SleCt7n3WLI/AAAAAAAABKw/w9kaNMkkN24/s400/WheelsComingOff.jpg

Unclebuck
02-10-2010, 01:46 PM
it is going to take a year for us to know. He needs an offseason, training camp, and then we'll know

pwee31
02-10-2010, 01:46 PM
I'm honestly not sure. If you look at his first handful of game back, he played really well, and didn't seem to miss a beat, then things took a turn for the worse quickly and hasn't gone back.

I wonder if he's given up on the coach, given up on teammates, or maybe got caught up in trade rumors somewhere and decided to lower his value?

Regardless, he's been really disappointing, and I hope it changes

SMosley21
02-10-2010, 01:46 PM
I have been saying the same thing over on realgm for a while now. Seems like Mike is just not even trying at certain points. He was getting absolutely WORKED by John Salmons last night. Sitting next to a couple of Bulls fans made it even more embarrassing. With Dunleavy's recent criticisms of the team, it seems like he isn't even trying to take responsibility for it.

Speed
02-10-2010, 01:49 PM
He reminds of a coach who's had enough and has just thrown their hands in the air in disgust.

I don't like his persona on the floor. I don't like his impatience with other players.

That's all just subjective stuff, as for on the floor, he's not taking charges, he's being exploited defensively, he's not hitting his shot consistently.

I guess what I'm getting at is he's not doing the things he's capable of doing well, well. The things he can't do well, he continues to not do well.

Honestly, I think he's playing like a spoiled brat who's friends aren't playing the way he wants to, so he's pouting.

I just expect more of him being a captain or a veteran. I'm okay with a guy getting on other players to help them raise their play, but I see the opposite alot of times. I think he is passive aggressive with them. For instance, the inbound to D Jones who was 20 feet away, instead of giving it to TJ who was right there.

I think he's going through the motions.

I think he's probably not all the way back physically, but I think it more has to do with his demeanor that's bothering me.

I've given him a pass because he's came back from injury, but man he doesn't come across like a teammate I'd like to have.

I know I've just ripped him, but really I've been thinking about this for awhile.

Speed
02-10-2010, 01:59 PM
On a side note:

I wouldn't be surprised if in 3-5 years we hear how bad things really were during this time and I mean top to bottom.

Like Management not knowing what the coaches are doing.

Coaches sending mixed signals.

Players divided into factions.

I mean the whole Anthony Johnson culture thing, but from just a disorganized, I am smarter than you sort of environment.

I am almost of the mind to wish for a complete house cleaning by Simon. This isn't an Obie sucks, post lost game rant. I just get the feeling there is a lot of mismanagement going on here.

Funny thing, I think Obie is the least of the problem. He just has a different basketball philosophy than upper management and is trying to do the best he can.

To bring is back to Mike, I think he's part of the problem or at least a symptom of it.

Putnam
02-10-2010, 02:04 PM
On a side note:

I wouldn't be surprised if in 3-5 years we hear how bad things really were during this time and I mean top to bottom.

Like Management not knowing what the coaches are doing.

Coaches sending mixed signals.

Players divided into factions.

I mean the whole Anthony Johnson culture thing, but from just a disorganized, I am smarter than you sort of environment.

I am almost of the mind to wish for a complete house cleaning by Simon. This isn't an Obie sucks, post lost game rant. I just get the feeling there is a lot of mismanagement going on here.

Funny thing, I think Obie is the least of the problem. He just has a different basketball philosophy than upper management and is trying to do the best he can.

To bring is back to Mike, I think he's part of the problem or at least a symptom of it.


Which is just a longer, more detailed way of saying what I said. The wheels are off.

Justin Tyme
02-10-2010, 02:16 PM
Dun needs to shut it down for the season..... period. He's not helping this team, and if he plans to be a help next year then he needs to shut it down. He looks to have already shut in down on the court now. He was 1-7 in last nights game. If he can't play any better than he has, there is no reason to play him. His lacksidasical apathetic demeanor just ain't cutt'n it.

I know this will "stir the pot of controversy", but I'd rather trade him than TJ at the present time. He's as worthless as teets on a boar with his pathetic play. Give Head his minutes and put him in a suit behind the bench for the rest of the season. His contributions are minimal at best. Give the minutes to someone who looks and acts like they appreciate wearing a Pacers uni.

SMosley21
02-10-2010, 02:20 PM
Dun needs to shut it down for the season..... period. He's not helping this team, and if he plans to be a help next year then he needs to shut it down. He looks to have already shut in down on the court now. He was 1-7 in last nights game. If he can't play any better than he has, there is no reason to play him. His lacksidasical apathetic demeanor just ain't cutt'n it.

I know this will "stir the pot of controversy", but I'd rather trade him than TJ at the present time. He's as worthless as teets on a boar with his pathetic play. Give Head his minutes and put him in a suit behind the bench for the rest of the season. His contributions are minimal at best. Give the minutes to someone who looks and acts like they appreciate wearing a Pacers uni.

Sad to say but I actually agree with this. Dunleavy was probably in my top 3 favorite Pacers 2 seasons ago. Now I find myself wishing he would just go sit in a corner somewhere and leave the basketball to the rest of the team.

d_c
02-10-2010, 02:20 PM
Not wanting to play for the coach. I think the player are finally fed up with Flim and its showing in their play.

For Dunleavy's own sake, I certainly hope he isn't quitting on the coach who he has had by far the most success under (out of the 5 he's played under). Personally, I don't think he is. He'd be pretty stupid and selfish to do so.

Anthem
02-10-2010, 02:21 PM
Dun needs to shut it down for the season..... period.
Yeah, a big part of my confusion is that I just don't understand why he's out there. The dude's playing on bad wheels and he's not able to do what he used to be able to do... why not sit him down and start working on next season?

McKeyFan
02-10-2010, 02:28 PM
On a side note:

I wouldn't be surprised if in 3-5 years we hear how bad things really were during this time and I mean top to bottom.

Like Management not knowing what the coaches are doing.

Coaches sending mixed signals.

Players divided into factions.

I mean the whole Anthony Johnson culture thing, but from just a disorganized, I am smarter than you sort of environment.

I am almost of the mind to wish for a complete house cleaning by Simon. This isn't an Obie sucks, post lost game rant. I just get the feeling there is a lot of mismanagement going on here.

Funny thing, I think Obie is the least of the problem. He just has a different basketball philosophy than upper management and is trying to do the best he can.

To bring is back to Mike, I think he's part of the problem or at least a symptom of it.

I'm wondering similar things.

Bird seems to have the potential to be a very hands off, impersonal manager.

He may be putting no pressure on Obie (duh, an extension) and the players have nowhere to go to voice their frustrations.

My theory is that Dunleavy is trying to hold down the "follow the instructions of the coach" school, while most everyone else is pointing out the hypocrisy and tired of the BS.

The part I really don't understand is all of Dunleavy's stupid turnovers. He never used to do that.

Tom White
02-10-2010, 02:29 PM
To add to all of this, his Dad was just removed as the Clippers coach. Wonder if that just added t his state of mind. I was watching the Pacers on TV, just a couple games ago, and Dun was at the free throw line, preparing to shoot. I remember telling someone else how he looked drawn, and absolutely drained. Some of his current problems may be physical, but he looked mentally exhausted, to me.

Mourning
02-10-2010, 02:33 PM
it is going to take a year for us to know. He needs an offseason, training camp, and then we'll know

This!

BobbyMac
02-10-2010, 02:39 PM
it is going to take a year for us to know. He needs an offseason, training camp, and then we'll know

I agree completely!

Unclebuck
02-10-2010, 02:51 PM
He is still out there playing as a way to get back into game shape. it is better to get this game time in now and then have an offseason to refine things. Then to shut it down which would set him back to where he was months ago. The time he is getting now is vital for him to being as good as he can be next season. (part of his problem is that he sat out a year - sitting out two years would only make his comeback that much more difficult)

I would love to see stats and see how different he plays when he has a day off before a game

CableKC
02-10-2010, 02:51 PM
Like everything else when it comes to JO'B.....he sticks to his gameplan and players whether the boat is sinking or not. I have no problem playing Dunleavy ahead of Luther. When Dunleavy's shot is falling...he works very well within the system and significantly improves it....when he's not.....he's useless due to his inability to properly defend more athletic GFs ( see what Salmons did to him yesterday night ). I'd hope that JO'B recognizes that and pulls him in favor of simply trying something different ( such as playing Head ).....the problem is that he doesn't.

If anything.....Head suffers from the same problem that plagues McRoberts/Solo....he isn't used as often because JO'B prefers to stick with someone that he prefers to play ( whether he is doing good or bad ).

To be clear....this isn't a "Dunleavy sucks" response....I think that he is helpful at times and I'm more then willing to give him the minutes to get out of his slump. This is more of a "One of our key players is struggling on the floor and JO'B is doing very little to remedy the situation by pulling him from the floor in favor of someone else that can't possibly do any worse" response.

McKeyFan
02-10-2010, 02:53 PM
He is still out there playing as a way to get back into game shape. it is better to get this game time in now and then have an offseason to refine things. Then to shut it down which would set him back to where he was months ago. The time he is getting now is vital for him to being as good as he can be next season. (part of his problem is that he sat out a year - sitting out two years would only make his comeback that much more difficult)

I would love to see stats and see how different he plays when he has a day off before a game

Man, I hope you are right.

I think sunshine beams out from the crevices of your arse.

Pacersfan46
02-10-2010, 03:02 PM
He is still out there playing as a way to get back into game shape. it is better to get this game time in now and then have an offseason to refine things. Then to shut it down which would set him back to where he was months ago. The time he is getting now is vital for him to being as good as he can be next season. (part of his problem is that he sat out a year - sitting out two years would only make his comeback that much more difficult)

I would love to see stats and see how different he plays when he has a day off before a game

Not much different, actually.

With no rest (12 games)
9.4 ppg, 36% FG, 27% 3 point, 3.6 rebs, 1.2 assists

With 1 day rest (18 games)
12.6 ppg, 42% FG, 31% 3 point, 4.1 rebs, 2.1 assists

With 2 days rest (6 games)
11.8 ppg, 37% FG, 37% 3 point, 4.3 rebs, 1.0 assists

With 3 days rest (3 games)
8.3 ppg, 45% FG, 16% 3 point, 2.0 rebs, 1.3 assists

I don't really see any major swings or evident trends. He shoots better with 1 day rest, than 2. So even though he shoots worse with no rest, it still shoots the idea in the foot that he gets better with more rest.

No idea what to make of these numbers, but there they are.

-- Steve --

Unclebuck
02-10-2010, 03:07 PM
Man, I hope you are right.

I think sunshine beams out from the crevices of your arse.

I'm not suggesting that Mike is going to be any better next season, only that we won't know until next season if he'll ever get back to where he was. And that this time he is getting now is vital for his recovery if there is going to be one

graphic-er
02-10-2010, 03:23 PM
He is still out there playing as a way to get back into game shape. it is better to get this game time in now and then have an offseason to refine things. Then to shut it down which would set him back to where he was months ago. The time he is getting now is vital for him to being as good as he can be next season. (part of his problem is that he sat out a year - sitting out two years would only make his comeback that much more difficult)

I would love to see stats and see how different he plays when he has a day off before a game

This guy has played 30-40 games this season, and you still buy this game shape excuse? Its not like he was lounging around on the couch all training camp.

Unclebuck
02-10-2010, 03:34 PM
This guy has played 30-40 games this season, and you still buy this game shape excuse? Its not like he was lounging around on the couch all training camp.

Perhaps I should not have used the term "game shape" because that is only a fraction of what Mike is trying to get right. he has been unable to do any leg strengthening exercises this season at all, he has been unable to participate in practice when it involves anything with his legs. he is trying to come back from a very serious injury and getting back to the point where he can play NBA basketball again at a high level takes a ton of work.

Look at KG he's not been himself this season and his injury is not nearly as serious as Mike's and KG played most of last regular season and KG is a better athlete.

Overcoming injuries takes time, getting in NBA condition can take over a year when an injury is involved.

jhondog28
02-10-2010, 03:35 PM
I can only imagine how hard it would be to come back and play a sport after 1 year off. I played both soccer and baseball and if I took one year off I know it would take a while to get back into form. Especially at this high a level (NBA). I just think again this is just another reaction to how the season has gone. First it was Granger sucks thread, then JOB, then Murphy, then Ford now its Duns turn. Just saying this is a forum of discussion and normally when things are not going well the forum tends to go toward s the negative and when things are going well then posts and threads turn towards the positive.

Bball
02-10-2010, 03:35 PM
This guy has played 30-40 games this season, and you still buy this game shape excuse? Its not like he was lounging around on the couch all training camp.

I think UB is talking about Dunleavy getting confidence back in the knee... possibly still strengthening/healing the knee... learning how it reacts in various situations now... compensating for new limitations after the surgery... etc...

IOW... Dealing with the after-effects of knee surgery (mentally and physically), not simply getting himself back into game shape.

jhondog28
02-10-2010, 03:37 PM
This guy has played 30-40 games this season, and you still buy this game shape excuse? Its not like he was lounging around on the couch all training camp.

Dude you just dont like the guy. I get where you are coming from but the guy had a freaking bone spur removed from a crucial ligament and couldnt do crap for a year. Not to mention his history is when he works out he burns it off during the season. He loses like 10-15 pounds during the basketball season. That by itself takes a toll on your body. Just watch next year is his contract year. If I was a fantasy owner I would take a shot on him next year.

Justin Tyme
02-10-2010, 03:43 PM
I've come to the point where I just don't really care about the rest of the season. Let Jimmy coach as always, let Jimmy play Murphy & Dunleavy, don't play play Price, don't start Hibbert, etc. It's just going to get the Pacers a better draft pick come June. That's the only silver lining I can see in this dark cloud hanging over the Pacers.

Sookie
02-10-2010, 03:43 PM
Coming back from a knee injury isn't going to take a month. It'll take a long time. Perhaps even two years.

That said, Dun is clearly frustrated. I'm not sure who it's with, but he's clearly not happy with members of the team/coaching staff. And he's in "screw it" mode.

Unclebuck
02-10-2010, 03:51 PM
Coming back from a knee injury isn't going to take a month. It'll take a long time. Perhaps even two years.

That said, Dun is clearly frustrated. I'm not sure who it's with, but he's clearly not happy with members of the team/coaching staff. And he's in "screw it" mode.

He is frustrated, but what we don't know if it is with his own physical condition, not being able to do what he knows how to do or if it is with the coaches and teammates. Likely it is probably a combo of all three, but I would guess more so with his own condition.

jhondog28
02-10-2010, 03:52 PM
He is frustrated, but what we don't know if it is with his own physical condition, not being able to do what he knows how to do or if it is with the coaches and teammates. Likely it is probably a combo of all three, but I would guess more so with his own condition.

100% agree

ChicagoJ
02-10-2010, 03:56 PM
This is a guy that was supposed to miss 12 months after surgery which is almost the entire season and has been rushed back onto the court so the team can get "some" productivity from him.

Some of you really need to re-think your expectations.

Anything we get from Dunleavy during 2009-2010 is gravy. What matters is that he's healthy and in shape for the 2010-11 season.

Naptown_Seth
02-10-2010, 04:18 PM
it is going to take a year for us to know. He needs an offseason, training camp, and then we'll know
What?

You don't need a year to play back into game shape. It's not like he got surgery in DEC, he was rehabbing before the season to the point that he apparently could practice and then eventually play.

The defense of his play instead of lingering injury like Anthem and I said was as Anthem pointed out - "he's playing back up to game shape".

I went on one of my rants about how that was nuts about a month ago, and now we are a month farther along and it's still the same or worse.

On top of that, this is NOT his top form because he put up previously better numbers. He's either hurt or doesn't care.



Here's the doesn't care angle - look at his "confidence" based up and down seasons at GSW. Hmm, looks familiar.

Guys have hot streaks, but they don't go in spurts of a full year, more like weeks or even game to game.

I've also seen him make blatantly silly, half-effort passes. I've seen him throw passes almost directly to the other team, like on outlets to guys 8 feet away. If you don't have your legs, step in closer and stop taking shots your know you can't make....oh, except he has nights where he actually shoots better from deep than inside.


It's either that or he's still hurt, or perhaps is permanently damaged now and will never be better than this. And if he's hurt so bad that he's playing at this low level, then WTF is he playing at all!!!!! :mad:

A guy as "hurt" as this needs to shut it down when the team is clearly not a playoff contender. If he's not hurt then it's mental/emotional.


What is insulting to me to even suggest at this point is that "he still gets winded and his legs are weak". Freaking Fat Shaq played himself into game shape in less time than this, and more than once.

And as you get better you show signs of PROGRESS. Sheesh.

Sookie
02-10-2010, 04:34 PM
I think you're forgetting the mental aspect of coming back from a knee injury.

I don't know what exactly happened with Dunn. But as a Uconn fan, I've seen enough freaking knee injuries (five season ending knee injuries the past two seasons)

There's a mental aspect to it that is so often overlooked by people.

There's no way of knowing if he's physically there yet, but he's certainly mentally struggling. And then we add in all the other crap...

I've been disapointed in him as a leader for many reasons. But I give him a break, because coming back from such a major knee injury is gonna take time.

jhondog28
02-10-2010, 04:48 PM
What?

You don't need a year to play back into game shape. It's not like he got surgery in DEC, he was rehabbing before the season to the point that he apparently could practice and then eventually play.

The defense of his play instead of lingering injury like Anthem and I said was as Anthem pointed out - "he's playing back up to game shape".

I went on one of my rants about how that was nuts about a month ago, and now we are a month farther along and it's still the same or worse.

On top of that, this is NOT his top form because he put up previously better numbers. He's either hurt or doesn't care.



Here's the doesn't care angle - look at his "confidence" based up and down seasons at GSW. Hmm, looks familiar.

Guys have hot streaks, but they don't go in spurts of a full year, more like weeks or even game to game.

I've also seen him make blatantly silly, half-effort passes. I've seen him throw passes almost directly to the other team, like on outlets to guys 8 feet away. If you don't have your legs, step in closer and stop taking shots your know you can't make....oh, except he has nights where he actually shoots better from deep than inside.


It's either that or he's still hurt, or perhaps is permanently damaged now and will never be better than this. And if he's hurt so bad that he's playing at this low level, then WTF is he playing at all!!!!! :mad:

A guy as "hurt" as this needs to shut it down when the team is clearly not a playoff contender. If he's not hurt then it's mental/emotional.


What is insulting to me to even suggest at this point is that "he still gets winded and his legs are weak". Freaking Fat Shaq played himself into game shape in less time than this, and more than once.

And as you get better you show signs of PROGRESS. Sheesh.

I watched Dun in GS and he never played at this level even then that is why to me this points to physical. He didnt play this bad even when he got booed. You dont fall off the map like he has from 17ppg to 9ppg unless something is wrong. For most posters on here to jump on him this season is ridiculous. Even if he was 100% healthy the fact that people are on his *** makes them look silly. Sorry Seth but it does. The guy had almost career ending surgery and for people to expect him to be 100% game shape and 100% leg strength right now is crazy. He can still play and every now and then contribute. That is what he gets paid to do. I agree I wish he would sit out and rest until next year since this year means diddily poo right now but it is not going to happen. He still can help the team win even if he is struggling. Its not like his absence last year made the team any better.

DaveP63
02-10-2010, 05:01 PM
His mechanics are s*&t right now. Anything that he shoots quickly, like curling off screens, is going to be off. The only thing he really seems to be hitting is feet planted set shots. That smells like knee issue to me. Whether it be pain, conditioning or whatever. To be honest, I'm shocked at his percentages. I didn't figure them anywhere near that high.

Putnam
02-10-2010, 05:04 PM
I've come to the point where I just don't really care about the rest of the season. Let Jimmy coach as always, let Jimmy play Murphy & Dunleavy, don't play play Price, don't start Hibbert, etc. It's just going to get the Pacers an infinitesimally greater chance at being selected for a better draft pick come June. That's the only silver lining I can see in this dark cloud hanging over the Pacers.



fixed.

PaceBalls
02-10-2010, 05:22 PM
I'd rather trade Mike than Murph at this point. Murph has played much better than Mike this year. Watching Mike out there reminds me of watching a globetrotters game without the fancy stuff. He just runs the routes, passes the ball when he is supposed to, he is on autopilot all the time. When the ball bounces the other direction he seems to ignore it and just keep on going on his route. Like that rebound last night at the end of the game. WAKE UP DUDE!!

What drives me crazy (even more) is how our coach criticizes Rush constantly but you never hear a word about Mike. I think our coach is scared of him. I have no idea what logic or reasoning our coach uses anymore or the motivations behind what he says. I'd like to sit down with him and have a good debate over a few beers to see if he can defend his position.

McKeyFan
02-10-2010, 05:45 PM
I think Mike looks a lot thinner, even a bit anemic. You'd think the injury would make him gain weight, not lose it.

Maybe he has some other illness we don't know about.

jhondog28
02-10-2010, 05:52 PM
I think Mike looks a lot thinner, even a bit anemic. You'd think the injury would make him gain weight, not lose it.

Maybe he has some other illness we don't know about.

He always has put on poundage during the offseason because he knows he is going to drop 15-20 pounds during the season. One thing this past off season though is he was not able to put on that extra muscle because he was busy rehabbing. It has always been that way ever since college. I think he just needs the off season more than anyone. He needs to stay at 20 min a night and play no more than that right now.

PacerGuy
02-10-2010, 06:36 PM
1) Injury worsens... :( :confused: :duh:

2) Surgery needed, could be career threatening... :-o :confused: :cry:

3) Rehab... :crutch: :boxer: :sheepy:

4) Getting close to playing... :happydanc :) :dance:

5) Injury set back... :eek: :pissed: :shakehead

6) More Rehab... :crutch: :boxer: :sheepy:

7) Missing camp & first 1/4 of season... :pissed: :scream: :censored:

8) Not being a starter & poor play... :bs: :banghead: :bag:

9) Not being 100% healthy, can't do what once could.. :geezer: :confused: :censored:

10) Rumors of Trades, including guy he played w/ his entire career... :rolleyes: :gossip: :uhoh:

11) Daily interaction w/ JO'B... :banghead: :notlisten: :scream:

12) Knowing I'm likely not in the teams "3 year plan"...:rolleyes: :kickcan: :leaving:

speakout4
02-10-2010, 06:44 PM
Bird seems to have the potential to be a very hands off, impersonal manager.

Bird was also a hands off coach who let Harter and Carlisle do the coaching for him so this isn't surprising.

Dun comes from a culture where you don't quit doing your best because you don't like your coach or teammates. I would guess this is about his injury and the frustration of not playing the way he should.

flox
02-10-2010, 07:04 PM
Frustration at not playing well and the team not playing well. The guy has played what, 57 games in the past 2 seasons and had to go through a lot of rehab without being in the game shape he is used to be in?

The fact that he averages 3pg more with rest really makes me feel that way. If there was an injury risk to make it worse I'm sure that he wouldn't be playing.

Hoop
02-10-2010, 07:09 PM
He didn't have major reconstructive knee surgery, he had a large bone spur rubbing and causing pain. They removed the spur without causing problems with the patella. His knee should be better than it's been for many years.

Everything I've read said the surgery went better than expected. His rehab went better than expected, he returned faster than expected. He had a few minor setbacks but still returned months ahead of schedule.

I don't buy that it's just a physical problem, he does not favor the knee. I don't buy it's a confidence thing. He looked very confident early and played very well. He just continues to get worse and worse. All I know is a lot of these excuses people are making for him make zero sense.

He's not playing much different than he did in Golden State. When is it time to just call him Doneleavy and move on. Maybe the sooner any remnants of the horrible Golden State trade are gone the better.

jhondog28
02-10-2010, 07:28 PM
He didn't have major reconstructive knee surgery, he had a large bone spur rubbing and causing pain. They removed the spur without causing problems with the patella. His knee should be better than it's been for many years.

Everything I've read said the surgery went better than expected. His rehab went better than expected, he returned faster than expected. He had a few minor setbacks but still returned months ahead of schedule.

I don't buy that it's just a physical problem, he does not favor the knee. I don't buy it's a confidence thing. He looked very confident early and played very well. He just continues to get worse and worse. All I know is a lot of these excuses people are making for him make zero sense.

He's not playing much different than he did in Golden State. When is it time to just call him Doneleavy and move on. Maybe the sooner any remnants of the horrible Golden State trade are gone the better.

I will agree to disagree on so many levels with this. To each his own

BRushWithDeath
02-10-2010, 07:55 PM
Anything we get from Dunleavy during 2009-2010 is gravy.

This gravy is hurting the meal. Not all gravy is good. Dunleavy's gravy is made from urine and sits atop our open faced turd sandwich that we call a team. His contributions haven't helped the team in any way. Entirely the opposite.

McKeyFan
02-10-2010, 08:42 PM
This gravy is hurting the meal. Not all gravy is good. Dunleavy's gravy is made from urine and sits atop our open faced turd sandwich that we call a team. His contributions haven't helped the team in any way. Entirely the opposite.

Sometimes I eat while reading PD. Glad I wasn't just now.

Pacersfan46
02-10-2010, 09:17 PM
To help with UB's point ....

3 years ago I had a major life/death surgery. I have a foot long scar right down the middle of my stomach. Even to this day when I play basketball when someone lowers a shoulder into my stomach ... even if for just a split second I still question if that's going to be the one that hurts.

I'm 99% sure it'll never hurt, but mentally ... believe me it still makes you wonder. It used to bother me a lot more, and it's this mental worry that I believe UB is talking about. I know it quite well, and he's probably correct. Every time Mike cuts he probably has that same worry in his head that I do ... "Is this the one that hurts??!".

You can't reduce, or get that out of your head by sitting on the bench.

-- Steve --

McKeyFan
02-10-2010, 09:54 PM
To help with UB's point ....

3 years ago I had a major life/death surgery. I have a foot long scar right down the middle of my stomach. Even to this day when I play basketball when someone lowers a shoulder into my stomach ... even if for just a split second I still question if that's going to be the one that hurts.

I'm 99% sure it'll never hurt, but mentally ... believe me it still makes you wonder. It used to bother me a lot more, and it's this mental worry that I believe UB is talking about. I know it quite well, and he's probably correct. Every time Mike cuts he probably has that same worry in his head that I do ... "Is this the one that hurts??!".

You can't reduce, or get that out of your head by sitting on the bench.

-- Steve --

If this is true, then that means he has taken a few cuts since returning that really did hurt.

gummy
02-10-2010, 10:00 PM
If this is true, then that means he has taken a few cuts since returning that really did hurt.

Curious - how do you get from what PF46 said to this conclusion? I don't think he said it ever did hurt, yet the thought is still in his mind. Could be the same for Mike.

Pacersfan46
02-10-2010, 10:05 PM
If this is true, then that means he has taken a few cuts since returning that really did hurt.

Not necessarily true. I haven't had a pain from sports on my scar in 2 years, but it still crosses my mind. Once you lose confidence in your ability to maneuver without pain, it takes a long while to get it back.

-- Steve --

McKeyFan
02-10-2010, 10:31 PM
Not necessarily true. I haven't had a pain from sports on my scar in 2 years, but it still crosses my mind. Once you lose confidence in your ability to maneuver without pain, it takes a long while to get it back.

-- Steve --

Fair enough.

I guess I was trying to figure out why his first two weeks back were so good, so strong and confident, then he deteriorated so badly. Perhaps one of those cuts two weeks in was, in fact, very painful.

:whoknows:

Anthem
02-10-2010, 10:39 PM
He is still out there playing as a way to get back into game shape.
I was about to debunk this and then saw that Seth already has.


This is a guy that was supposed to miss 12 months after surgery which is almost the entire season and has been rushed back onto the court so the team can get "some" productivity from him.

Some of you really need to re-think your expectations.
I expect the Pacers not to rush him back from a career-threatening surgery. If the dude's not ready to come back, then he shouldn't be playing.


Anything we get from Dunleavy during 2009-2010 is gravy. What matters is that he's healthy and in shape for the 2010-11 season.
Will he be? Do you see him getting better?

I think in twelve months we're going to be saying "I wish Dun had sat during 2009-2010 and actually fixed that knee, instead of playing on it and not letting it have enough time to heal."

Sookie
02-10-2010, 10:41 PM
I think people are seriously underestimating the mental aspect of coming back from a potential career ending injury.

It's probably got more to do with his poor play than anything else.

I do think he's got a crappy attitude about the situation the Pacers are in, but it's hard to blame him.

Hoop
02-11-2010, 01:01 AM
Has anyone thought maybe his one good NBA season (19 pt 5.2 reb 3.5 apg with the Pacers) is the aberration and this IS the real Mike Dunleavy.

His stats this season are not much different than his 4-1/2 seasons in Golden State. He is playing 5 mpg less, he is only 1 reb, 1 apg, 1 pt off his career averages and shooting .037 worse. It's not like he was Larry Bird before the knee surgery.

I hope I'm wrong, but does anyone really expect him to be remarkably better next season in his 9th year in the NBA. How often does that happen?

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 09:54 AM
OK, so if Mike is noticeably better next season - can we say that I and others are right and Anthem and Seth were wrong.

Justin Tyme
02-11-2010, 10:18 AM
OK, so if Mike is noticeably better next season - can we say that I and others are right and Anthem and Seth were wrong.


What's your definition of "noticeably" better?

To me any improvement could be classified as "noticeably better" with how Dunleavy has been playing. So what are your parameters to "noticeably better?" Back to 07-08 type of stats? A little less? What?

It's like your boss saying if I see a noticeable improvement in your work I'll give you a bonus. First off, I want to know if he indeed has the authority to do so, and secondly how much can he truly give. If no parameter is set as to what a noticeable improvement is, it's really nothing more than his decision if you showed a noticeable improvement or not. It's dangling the carrot in front of the mule to get it to work scenario.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2010, 10:21 AM
This gravy is hurting the meal. Not all gravy is good.

I do agree with this completely. In my opinion, he should sit out 2009-2010 entirely and get the knee injury and rehab and conditioning completely behind him. Which I've said a number of times since last spring.

He wasn't ready to play at an optimal level when he was rushed back onto the court. He was merely capable of playing some minutes without risk of reinjuring the knee or regressing.

He's nowhere near 100% and according to all accounts was not expected to be anywhere near 100% this season.

There is a huge difference between, "I'm healthy enough to play and I'm not going to use injuries as an excuse" and "Well... he's on the court so he must be 100% healthy."

I feel bad for Dunleavy because he's in a no-win situation. Play at less than 100% and get criticized for the level/ quality of play, or wait until he's really ready to play at an optimal level and be criticized that the 12-month recovery period actually took 12 months. Poor guy.

Anthem
02-11-2010, 10:53 AM
OK, so if Mike is noticeably better next season - can we say that I and others are right and Anthem and Seth were wrong.
Um, what?

If he's noticeably better next season, then it shows up the folks who say "This is what Dun's capable of... it's what he did in GS and it's what he'll do from now on."

My position (in case you haven't been reading my posts) is that we shouldn't be playing him when he's not ready, and he's not ready. So if he's noticeably better next season, wouldn't that prove me right?

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 11:11 AM
Um, what?

If he's noticeably better next season, then it shows up the folks who say "This is what Dun's capable of... it's what he did in GS and it's what he'll do from now on."

My position (in case you haven't been reading my posts) is that we shouldn't be playing him when he's not ready, and he's not ready. So if he's noticeably better next season, wouldn't that prove me right?

OK, I was trying to be a little humorous in my prior post.

My point in response to what your point is - I believe he needs this time on the court in games now in order for him to be better next season. The worst thing he could do would be to sit out and essentuall he would be out for two full seasons then (in theory as he has played 50% of this season already - although I take it that you think he should have sat all this whole season) . You disagree with that - I understand. Who is right - we'll never know. if Dun is a lot better next season I guess we'll both claim we were correct.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2010, 11:50 AM
How does Mike, who's been the league for a number of years "need time to be better next season" but young players don't?

Aren't you then making the argument that Price/ Rush/ Granger/ McBob (until Tyler is healthy) and Hibbert should be getting the majority of the minutes so they can be ready for next season?

(Hmmm... that's what I was arguing for for the 2008-09 season.)

Anthem
02-11-2010, 01:21 PM
Well UB, I think we both can agree he's not helping us any this season.


The worst thing he could do would be to sit out and essentuall he would be out for two full seasons then
I think the WORST thing he could do would be to play on the knee before it's healed completely and mess it up further. It's an injury from repetitive strain... rest is the cure. My fear is that we're playing him meaningless minutes in meaningless games that will end up hurting his ability to come all of the way back.

If we get to summer and hear Dun's going to need a follow-up procedure, I will lose it. Because then he'll miss offseason workouts again, miss training camp, start the season on the IL, and then try to catch up while the season is underway.

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 01:31 PM
Well UB, I think we both can agree he's not helping us any this season.


I think the WORST thing he could do would be to play on the knee before it's healed completely and mess it up further. It's an injury from repetitive strain... rest is the cure. My fear is that we're playing him meaningless minutes in meaningless games that will end up hurting his ability to come all of the way back.

If we get to summer and hear Dun's going to need a follow-up procedure, I will lose it. Because then he'll miss offseason workouts again, miss training camp, start the season on the IL, and then try to catch up while the season is underway.

I'm sure if the doctors thought that by playing on the knee right now that it would mess up his knee further - then Mike would not be playing.

Anthem
02-11-2010, 02:26 PM
I'm sure if the doctors thought that by playing on the knee right now that it would mess up his knee further - then Mike would not be playing.
You cannot be serious.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2010, 02:50 PM
I agree with UB.

/gasp/


Anyway, if the knee were so weak that he was at risk of further injury, he'd be in rehab.

He got back onto the court as quickly as medically possible. That's not the same thing as "fully healed" and its not even close.

Anthem
02-11-2010, 03:13 PM
Anyway, if the knee were so weak that he was at risk of further injury, he'd be in rehab.
You don't think the franchise would push a guy back out on the court before he was medically ready? You don't think that's even an option?

ChicagoJ
02-11-2010, 03:36 PM
You don't think the franchise would push a guy back out on the court before he was medically ready? You don't think that's even an option?

Sure they would.

Why do you think players and management have such ugly, contentious fights about whether a player is healthy enough to play.

Why do you think Dunleavy would cooperate with it?

It's his knee. All he has to do to shut it down is say, "it hurts." Who can argue with him?

Unclebuck
02-11-2010, 03:56 PM
I agree with UB.



That's it my work is done here in this forum and here on earth. My goal has been reached there is nothing left for me here. It has been nice getting to know all of you. Good night and good luck

ChicagoJ
02-11-2010, 04:02 PM
:wave:

(Was it really that easy? Damn, I'm stubborn.)

:D

Trophy
02-11-2010, 05:12 PM
Maybe we can package him in a deal to save even more money and also eliminate a wingman and he seems to me to be the one who should be moved.

Looking at who we have.
Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, Brandon Rush, Dahntay Jones, Luther Head

I think Luther deserves more time than Mike. He's shooting as well as how Mike used to.

Anthem
02-11-2010, 11:30 PM
Maybe we can package him in a deal
Not this year. No team will touch him before the summer.

Justin Tyme
02-12-2010, 11:44 AM
Maybe we can package him in a deal to save even more money and also eliminate a wingman and he seems to me to be the one who should be moved.

Looking at who we have.
Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, Brandon Rush, Dahntay Jones, Luther Head

I think Luther deserves more time than Mike. He's shooting as well as how Mike used to.


He's damaged goods, so why would any of the other 29 GM's want to take him on? How do they explain it to their owners and still keep their jobs?

Trophy
02-12-2010, 12:51 PM
He's damaged goods, so why would any of the other 29 GM's want to take him on? How do they explain it to their owners and still keep their jobs?

Maybe 28 if Mike Sr. wants to bring in his son.