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View Full Version : Small Ball vs. Josh Mcroberts



Infinite MAN_force
02-08-2010, 04:35 PM
I've been bored recently and decided to do some number crunching. Some people have justified small ball on the basis that it is born out of necessity, or in other words, that we are lacking in legitimate front court players, and this is why we resort to small ball.

I guess my question would be, should it EVER be justifiable to say, play D. Jones at the PF spot? Some people are ok with this because they seem to feel Josh Mcroberts, for example, does not belong in the NBA in any way shape or form.

Now before I go any further, I wan't to say I'm sick of all this Josh Mcrobert's hyperbole. If anyone so dares to suggest he should be getting any minutes at all, it is always met with some sort of sarcastic crap about "The legend" of Josh Mcroberts. I'm pretty sure nobody thinks Mcroberts is a future all star or anything of that nature... but I think it is a pretty relevant question to ask if he is really "so bad" that it would be justifiable to match up a gaurd against Chris Bosh? I would presume plenty of reasonable minds disagree.

Josh got a look this season due to injuries, he got big minutes in about 4 straight games and then disapeared once again from the rotation, presumably because he wasn't getting the job done? The numbers don't really bear that out... here are his numbers in those 4 games averaged. (we went 1-3)

24 MPG: 8 pts, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 61% FGP.

Nothing earth shattering, but pretty good production for a backup PF. I even checked out his Plus Minus to see if he was hurting team play when he was on the floor. Here is where he ranked amongst his teammates in those games in plus/minus. Usually a 9 man rotation.

VS. Chicago 12/29: 2nd on the team in 28 minutes.
VS. Memphis 12/30: 3rd on team in 23 minutes.
VS. Minnesota 01/02: 6th on team in 25 minutes
VS. New York 01/03: 2nd on team in 19 minutes.

Top half of the team in 3 out of 4 games. I don't try to take too much from the plus minus stat, but one thing I think this clearly shows is this. Josh being on the floor was not hurting the team. The offense was not grinding to a halt, the team defense was not totally screwed up, because if it were, the plus minus would reflect that.

I realize its a pretty small sample space, but it was 4 straight games of pretty steady production... and with Hansbrough and Foster out, I don't see how playing gaurds out of position is a better option than playing a real big man with legit size and athleticism.

I also did Tylers numbers for the purposes of comparison, only using games where he played AT LEAST 20 minutes. Of which there were 15 games, here are his averages in those 15 games.

23 MPG: 12 Points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 0.3 Blocks, 36% FGP.

Worse than Josh in Assists and Blocks, and only clearly better in one category. Points per game. Then there is is the issue of efficiency... Ill give the floor to Seth on this one. Would you rather have 12 points at 36%? or 8 points at 61%?

Not trying to say Josh is better, just saying Tyler had a spot in the rotation, and with him hurt, why shoulden't Josh get that spot when he has shown similar (if not better) production? Why do I have to endure a lineup with Troy Murphy at center and Mike Dunleavy at power forward????

Unclebuck will point out that the coaches see the team every day and they have a better idea who belongs on the floor than any of us. Fair enough. However, when I look at how this coach has treated Roy Hibbert, yanking him because of matchups, starting Troy over him, I begin to question this coach and his evaluation of our players.

The constant insistence to play Troy 30-35 MPG despite his terrible defense and worst plus/minus on the team is just another example. I think I trust my own eyes, I just don't have much faith in this coach when it comes to his evaluation of who should be getting minutes. He would ultimatly prefer to put the team on the floor with the capability of jacking up the most shots, and Josh doesn't really fit into that eqaution. Defense is a non factor in the man's decision making, or so it would seem.

I am not proposing that we give Josh 15 MPG and all our troubles will be over. Not at all. It probably wont make much difference at all in the win/loss column. However I think it is unfair to keep him glued to the bench this way when he should clearly be getting an oppurtunity with the current injury situation... and I also think it is unfair to constantly play players out of position, thus putting them in position to fail.

What I would really like to see is an end to Obrien's gimmicky game plan, and some sort of traditional offense/defense installed where players play their actual positions and we don't jack up 30 three pointers a night. Either way, we are gonna lose a lot of games, it would be nice if we could teach good basketball along the way instead of gimmicks.

the jaddler
02-08-2010, 06:57 PM
I want some McBob!!!!

BlueNGold
02-08-2010, 07:44 PM
I would have answered both questions YES. I'd prefer to see Josh and Solo out there for development purposes, but I'm pretty convinced that if you want to win right now, Granger plays the 4. This allows Rush and D Jones to play the wing and we are simply much better defensively. I like Josh a lot...and Solo too...but neither are part of the best starting lineup. The problem is not that Josh and Solo are not in the starting lineup....it is that Murphy is.

PacerGuy
02-08-2010, 07:55 PM
Why can McBob not get minutes @ the 5 in a S.B. lineup?
Let Granger play w/ McBob on the 1st untit, & Murph & Doante play the second unit. If we want a big option, Hibby can be added to either.

Infinite MAN_force
02-08-2010, 08:32 PM
I would have answered both questions YES. I'd prefer to see Josh and Solo out there for development purposes, but I'm pretty convinced that if you want to win right now, Granger plays the 4. This allows Rush and D Jones to play the wing and we are simply much better defensively. I like Josh a lot...and Solo too...but neither are part of the best starting lineup. The problem is not that Josh and Solo are not in the starting lineup....it is that Murphy is.

While playing Granger at the four is probably the best option in the short term, there is the question of how its going to effect his health in the long term. I wasn't convinced before, but after hearing him complain about the toll it takes on his legs gaurding guys 20 pounds heavier than he is, I wouldn't want to risk it, at least not for anything longer than short spurts.

He can certainly do a servicable job playing the position, much more so than D. Jones or Dunleavy, but its still probably not the best option.

The other big problem is that Murph and Hibbert are seemingly the best options at their respective positions, but make a terrible defensive combo. If it were up to me? I start Hibbert no matter what, he is the future, and I think Josh would be the best compliment to him in the lineup. A defensive upgrade but an offensive downgrade, which is why JOB would never dream of doing it.

Really, Hibbert/Josh and Solo/Murphy are pretty decent compliments, pair each slow footed guy with an athletic guy, and make sure there is a shot blocker in each lineup. Thats what I would do. Josh might not be "starting material", but I think he is servicable... I'd like to see him get a chance to prove it.

CableKC
02-08-2010, 08:32 PM
Why can McBob not get minutes @ the 5 in a S.B. lineup?
Let Granger play w/ McBob on the 1st untit, & Murph & Doante play the second unit. If we want a big option, Hibby can be added to either.
Simple....cuz JO'B prefers offense over defense and would prefer to go with a PF/C rotation of Granger/Hibbert/Murphy ( with sprinkles of Dunleavy at the PF spot ) instead of Players/Lineups involving less offensively-skilled players.

Do this on your own.......rank each of our Players from Offensively "skilled" to Offensively "challenged" and you will have JO'Bs rotation.

BlueNGold
02-08-2010, 09:26 PM
While playing Granger at the four is probably the best option in the short term, there is the question of how its going to effect his health in the long term. I wasn't convinced before, but after hearing him complain about the toll it takes on his legs gaurding guys 20 pounds heavier than he is, I wouldn't want to risk it, at least not for anything longer than short spurts.

He can certainly do a servicable job playing the position, much more so than D. Jones or Dunleavy, but its still probably not the best option.

The other big problem is that Murph and Hibbert are seemingly the best options at their respective positions, but make a terrible defensive combo. If it were up to me? I start Hibbert no matter what, he is the future, and I think Josh would be the best compliment to him in the lineup. A defensive upgrade but an offensive downgrade, which is why JOB would never dream of doing it.

Really, Hibbert/Josh and Solo/Murphy are pretty decent compliments, pair each slow footed guy with an athletic guy, and make sure there is a shot blocker in each lineup. Thats what I would do. Josh might not be "starting material", but I think he is servicable... I'd like to see him get a chance to prove it.

I have to agree with you. I'd be perfectly fine with a healthy dose of Josh and Solo.

Is Rush, Granger and McBob as good as Rush, Jones and Granger...? I still say no, but developing the younger bigs and preserving whatever health Granger can retain are more important than a few more wins this season.

Thesterovic
02-08-2010, 10:11 PM
But Troy stetches the defense and we simply cannot afford to get rid of that. Forget defense, defense isn't important, and Troy gives us our best chance to win games. If he has to play 48 minutes, so be it.


I'm done.

ksuttonjr76
02-08-2010, 10:25 PM
Personally, I don't mind Murphy starting given the current PF situation (sure wish we had Foster and/or Hansbrough), however JOB should really use traditional rotations.

My rotations would be...

Price/Ford
Rush/D. Jones
Granger/Dunleavy
Murphy/S. Jones/McRoberts
Hibbert/Murphy/S. Jones

Naptown_Seth
02-08-2010, 11:56 PM
It's nice to hear it from someone other than me.

When you are talking about a 6'6" PF or picking guys up for the league min, I say why not put the kid on the court. Then when he's already had some (not all of them) nice nights, why not keep on going. Isn't he at least as good as those other poor options?

No one wants Dale Davis benched so Josh can play.*






*not yet at least
s*** it chumps :p

Pacerized
02-09-2010, 12:12 AM
At this point I'm indifferent as to how many minutes McBob and Solo get. I'd like to see the emphasis put on developing the young players that stand a chance in being here after 2011. Murphy, Ford, and Dun are all gone while McBob and Solo stand almost no chance in developing into a long term rotational player. They can't even get meaningful minutes on a bad team. With what players we have that are healthy I'd be fine if all of Murphy's minutes get split between them but if Hans is ever healthy I'd like to see he and Hibbert get all them minutes they can take first. Of course as long as Murhpy can dress he'll get the playing time from JOB anyway.

Infinite MAN_force
02-09-2010, 12:51 AM
At this point I'm indifferent as to how many minutes McBob and Solo get. I'd like to see the emphasis put on developing the young players that stand a chance in being here after 2011. Murphy, Ford, and Dun are all gone while McBob and Solo stand almost no chance in developing into a long term rotational player. They can't even get meaningful minutes on a bad team. With what players we have that are healthy I'd be fine if all of Murphy's minutes get split between them but if Hans is ever healthy I'd like to see he and Hibbert get all them minutes they can take first. Of course as long as Murhpy can dress he'll get the playing time from JOB anyway.

I just don't read much into who our coach gives minutes to, most coaches don't match up 6-6 guards on Chris Bosh, in fact, I can't think of another coach in the NBA that would do that, EVER.

Meanwhile, Chris Anderson, a player very similar to Josh, is in the rotation of a team that won 54 games last year. I think Josh could be a rotation player in the NBA, I don't know if it will be here, but I would at least appreciate a look. I also don't think Chris Anderson would so much as sniff the floor on a team coached by Jim Obrien.

sportfireman
02-09-2010, 08:39 AM
Im not agreeing that they SHOULD get mins but I definitely agree we should play our players in their natural position.