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View Full Version : Bucks Pacers Postgame: Hustle and Flow



jhondog28
02-06-2010, 10:44 PM
Hustle and Flow are what Milwakee had and we didnt

Eindar
02-06-2010, 10:49 PM
Well, we're one loss closer to John Wall, and TJ Ford looked good out there, thus potentially making himself tradable. I'd call this a moral victory!

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 10:49 PM
I wish we had a defender/rebounder with the toughness of Mbah Moute. They played tough D.

TJ scored the ball well. On the flip side there's a lot of TOs interspersed with the hoops and the offense seems to grind to a hault when he gets hot. Still, I'll give him credit. Without him we aren't close at all. His D wasn't shabby either.

Can we find a way to keep Bogut from shooting the left hand hook over and over? How about Rush and whoever else not getting lost on Delfino again and again in the fourth?

Starters were awful.

ksuttonjr76
02-06-2010, 10:54 PM
Didn't watch the game, but saw the box score. JOB didn't play neither S. Jones or McRoberts???

LoneGranger33
02-06-2010, 10:56 PM
We dug ourselves a hole; Milwaukee just made sure we didn't get back out of it. Too many first half turnovers. Not enough defense in the post (or anywhere, really). Terrible offensive movement. Worst part about it? Our lone bright spot was a guy that many on this forum never want to see play.

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 10:57 PM
that team is less talented than the pacers and they won, also the pacers made S House looks like he was 20 again for some reason old or crappy players get career nights on us, today Mbah Moute had a career high in rebounds

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 11:02 PM
that team is less talented than the pacers and they won, also the pacers made S House looks like he was 20 again for some reason old or crappy players get career nights on us, today Mbah Moute had a career high in rebounds

Could you provide an analysis to support your assertion that the Bucks are less talented?

I think it might be close, but the difference maker is they have better consistent players at C, PG tandem, defensive specialist, three point sniper.

ksuttonjr76
02-06-2010, 11:02 PM
We dug ourselves a hole; Milwaukee just made sure we didn't get back out of it. Too many first half turnovers. Not enough defense in the post (or anywhere, really). Terrible offensive movement. Worst part about it? Our lone bright spot was a guy that many on this forum never want to see play.

Well, he should have never been banished to the bench in the first place.

jhondog28
02-06-2010, 11:07 PM
I think the talent level is pretty close. I think Bogut is mor etalented then any big we have. Also I think Jennings is more talented than any PG we got. I think we dont match up well with that team at all. Their bigs are extremely long and active. Their Forwards are long as well. I think they are more disciplined on the defensive end much more so than us...but I guess that is no suprise.

LoneGranger33
02-06-2010, 11:10 PM
I thought A.J. and T.J. both played excellent defense on Brandon Jennings - clearly, it was an off-night for him, but I believe our guys had a large something to do with it.

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 11:14 PM
Could you provide an analysis to support your assertion that the Bucks are less talented?

I think it might be close, but the difference maker is they have better consistent players at C, PG tandem, defensive specialist, three point sniper.

They are losing their All Star player, they don't really have a pf who can do much, their two guard is delfino and their three guard is S House, yes the pacers have more talent.

jhondog28
02-06-2010, 11:18 PM
They are losing their All Star player, they don't really have a pf who can do much, their two guard is delfino and their three guard is S House, yes the pacers have more talent.

I think you are overvaluing the Pacers talent

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 11:26 PM
I think you are overvaluing the Pacers talent

no, Im just comparing it with the Bucks, imagine how bad the pacers would be if they did not have Danny and Rush, that is how that team is playing, without RJefferson who got traded and Red who got hurt. I know that Bogut is really good and Jennings is good also but a the same time the Pacers had Danny(All star player),Rush,TJ Ford playing really well, Roy Hibbert, our double double machine in Troy and could no beat this team.

PacerGuy
02-06-2010, 11:26 PM
While I know +/- does not always tell the whole story, I am shocked no one pointed out that l/n TJ was +29, & AJ was just +5. Tonight, AJ was +3 & TJ was -8, but when you look a D.Granger (-19) & Murph & rush were (-12), I think TJ should get some props.
Yes, I will admit there were a few plays where he "Travis Bested" it a bit, but I also saw 5-6 times where he made passes that should have been buckets, but his teamates "screwed the pooch".
TJ showed me that last few nights that he has not forgotten how to play, is not selfish, & is capable of running a team in this league. Why did we not see this TJ earlier t/y? Slump? Style? Murphy or JO'B (they always need included on this board when we are seeking a "Blame", right?)? I'm not sure, but I know he payed well, shot well, & noticably showed he should not be burried on anyones bench - esp. on a team that has won barely > 1/3 of it's games.

graphic-er
02-06-2010, 11:27 PM
Simply amazing that Hibbert didn't get a shot of in the post all game. You know you are going to lose when your 7-2 center is taking jumpers just inside the arch. Also Troy Murphy giving Bogut the left handed shot every time. Bogut is not THAT good. He is very predictable in the post, yet Murphy made him look like a dynamo.

Sookie
02-06-2010, 11:28 PM
Good scoring game for TJ....please please please please don't put him back in the rotation. He was good TJ these two games. But we've seen far more of bad TJ. I'll take the rookie and a steady Watson.

I hope Price is back for Tuesday.

Didn't see the game, but I saw the "went down post.."

You know you are a Uconn fan when someone says "went down" and you think "not the knee..not the knee..not the knee...the head...oh okay good"

PacerGuy
02-06-2010, 11:31 PM
Simply amazing that Hibbert didn't get a shot of in the post all game. You know you are going to lose when your 7-2 center is taking jumpers just inside the arch. Also Troy Murphy giving Bogut the left handed shot every time. Bogut is not THAT good. He is very predictable in the post, yet Murphy made him look like a dynamo.

Roy was horrible on D tonight.
If you missed the first Q, it explains your post.

jhondog28
02-06-2010, 11:32 PM
no, Im just comparing it with the Bucks, imagine how bad the pacers would be if they did not have Danny and Rush, that is how that team is playing, without RJefferson who got traded and Red who got hurt. I know that Bogut is really good and Jennings is good also but a the same time the Pacers had Danny(All star player),Rush,TJ Ford playing really well, Roy Hibbert, our double double machine in Troy and could no beat this team.

OK I will say this Granger is the most talented player on the floor that I give you. But Bogut, Delfino and Jennings are the next three in talent. Yes Delfino is more talented then our second most talented player and I have no clue who that is...I guess Hibbert or Murphy or Dunleavy

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 11:37 PM
no, Im just comparing it with the Bucks, imagine how bad the pacers would be if they did not have Danny and Rush, that is how that team is playing, without RJefferson who got traded and Red who got hurt. I know that Bogut is really good and Jennings is good also but a the same time the Pacers had Danny(All star player),Rush,TJ Ford playing really well, Roy Hibbert, our double double machine in Troy and could no beat this team.

As well as Rush has played the last couple weeks, Delfino has been playing as well if not better. With the experience nod going to CD, that's at best a wash and tonight Brandon couldn't find CD on several of those big 4th qtr threes.

Roy is a good young prospect but it's a total mismatch agains Bogut, who's absolutely punished us every time we've played them.

Mbah Moute is a 3/4 who can play shut down D. One of the more underrated defenders in the league right now.

Redd has been a non-factor for the last several seasons due to injury so I don't think this is a big, unexpected loss now.

We know Murphy, despite his stats, often does not consistently impact the game and definitely did not tonight. In fact, I can't belive somebody is using Murphy as support to argue our talent superiority to an opponent.

graphic-er
02-06-2010, 11:39 PM
Roy was horrible on D tonight.
If you missed the first Q, it explains your post.

No I watched the whole game, i don't get what you are saying. Roy got into foul trouble early so that explains his terrible D, but no excuse for not getting into position in the low post. The Pacers ran sets where they passed to him high in the elbow to get bogut away from paint, for the majority of his time on the court. They never win with this offensive set. Roy actually tried to drive it in on bogut from out there and got stripped, no surprise there. Like I said, simply amazing that he got no shots in the low post all game long.

PacerGuy
02-06-2010, 11:47 PM
No I watched the whole game, i don't get what you are saying. Roy got into foul trouble early so that explains his terrible D, but no excuse for not getting into position in the low post. The Pacers ran sets where they passed to him high in the elbow to get bogut away from paint, for the majority of his time on the court. They never win with this offensive set. Roy actually tried to drive it in on bogut from out there and got stripped, no surprise there. Like I said, simply amazing that he got no shots in the low post all game long.
Feeding Roy in the post offensively does no good when anything he scores is given back on the defessive end.
I know it is painfull to hear, but Troy was a better option tonight vs Bogut then Roy, clear & simple. Neither were good options admittidly but Troy was better then Roy.

jhondog28
02-06-2010, 11:48 PM
after watching this game I think what we need in the draft is an athletic 4 or a game changing PG and I think we have a better shot with our position to get the strong athletic 4. You put and athletic 4 with Granger at the 3 and Hibbert at the 5 I think we may be further along.

graphic-er
02-06-2010, 11:53 PM
Feeding Roy in the post offensively does no good when anything he scores is given back on the defessive end.
I know it is painfull to hear, but Troy was a better option tonight vs Bogut then Roy, clear & simple. Neither were good options admittidly but Troy was better then Roy.

Simply not true. Hibbert is not going to draw any fouls hanging out at the high elbow, if you feed him in the low post and force bogut to guard him, your going to draw fouls, getting Bogut out of the game. No one challenged Bogue tonight.

PacerGuy
02-07-2010, 12:01 AM
Simply not true. Hibbert is not going to draw any fouls hanging out at the high elbow, if you feed him in the low post and force bogut to guard him, your going to draw fouls, getting Bogut out of the game. No one challenged Bogue tonight.
Maybe because he was only able to foul him & was on the bench.
Look, I get your point, & in theory you are right, but the option to run that plan went out the window very early on.

graphic-er
02-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Maybe because he was only able to foul him & was on the bench.
Look, I get your point, & in theory you are right, but the option to run that plan went out the window very early on.

but he wasn't on the bench early on, he was in the game in the middle of the 1st with 2 fouls. Chalk it up to bad coaching, JOB should realize that good offense can lead to good defense.

QuickRelease
02-07-2010, 07:16 AM
after watching this game I think what we need in the draft is an athletic 4 or a game changing PG and I think we have a better shot with our position to get the strong athletic 4. You put and athletic 4 with Granger at the 3 and Hibbert at the 5 I think we may be further along.

Which is why I don't get McBob being superglued to the bench. When we're having interior difficulty, it puzzles me that neither Solo or McBob never see the floor.

Mr_Smith
02-07-2010, 08:24 AM
Didn't watch all of the game.... but from what I saw, Andrew Bogut got away with alot of fouls not getting called on him, especially the shot to A.J. Price. The Pacers always make Bogut look like a future hall of famer. He's a bum in my book. Secondly, if the Pacers can't beat a team that consists of Carlos Delfino, 90 year old Jerry Stackhouse, and Mbah A muta, then they can't beat anybody. Great game by T.J. though!!

sportfireman
02-07-2010, 08:37 AM
Which is why I don't get McBob being superglued to the bench. When we're having interior difficulty, it puzzles me that neither Solo or McBob never see the floor.

Because they can't shoot the three..and they're bigs who would take mins from Murphy...Flim preaches defense but continues to play guys who can't and don't play defense...(Murphy and Dunleavy).

Unclebuck
02-07-2010, 08:52 AM
the key to this game is the same as the reason why the Heat give the Pacers tons of problems.

The Bucks like the Heat play an aggresive presurring defense, they play the passing lanes, they get up on the Pacers and try to make every pass contested. Pacers don't respond to that type of defense well at all.

Pacers defense after the first quarter I thought was really good, they were playing really hard defensively. I saw a lot of determination and a nice will tonight

ksuttonjr76
02-07-2010, 09:37 AM
after watching this game I think what we need in the draft is an athletic 4 or a game changing PG and I think we have a better shot with our position to get the strong athletic 4. You put and athletic 4 with Granger at the 3 and Hibbert at the 5 I think we may be further along.

We've been saying that all season long, hence the "Get rid of Murphy at all costs" mentality. The PG argument is still up in the air given Price's recent play.

jhondog28
02-07-2010, 12:49 PM
We've been saying that all season long, hence the "Get rid of Murphy at all costs" mentality. The PG argument is still up in the air given Price's recent play.

I feel better about our PG situation much more so than our PF situation...and the only reason I would say to take a PG in the first round would be if it was someone with superstar potential which I dont think we will have.

Justin Tyme
02-07-2010, 12:49 PM
I think they are more disciplined on the defensive end much more so than us...but I guess that is no suprise.


No, they have Skiles for a coach and not O'Brien.

Sookie
02-07-2010, 01:00 PM
Anyone else concerned Ford might be back in the rotation?

I much prefer the Price/Watson backup over Price/Ford or Watson/Ford.

I think Price is in the rotation regardless. He's the best PG on the team, and has given the team some good press..which is pretty badly needed. You don't bench your bright spot.

So between Watson and Ford..please God play Watson. Ford scored well. And for the most part, he was one of the positives in this past game..but let's not so easily forget the past. Old dogs don't learn new tricks. He's not good at running this team.

I also have a problem with Benching Watson (or Price for that matter) when they don't deserve it. T.J. played poorly, and deserved the benching. Price and Watson have played well.

That said. If he continues to make the three..maybe it wouldn't be so bad to have him take Head's minutes. Or at least to test him out there. People have an issue with benching the 8mil contract..maybe Head and Ford could split those minutes. Try Ford, play him while he's scoring..and if he gets cold..give Head a try.

vnzla81
02-07-2010, 01:03 PM
Anyone else concerned Ford might be back in the rotation?

I much prefer the Price/Watson backup over Price/Ford or Watson/Ford.

I think Price is in the rotation regardless. He's the best PG on the team, and has given the team some good press..which is pretty badly needed. You don't bench your bright spot.

So between Watson and Ford..please God play Watson. Ford scored well. And for the most part, he was one of the positives in this past game..but let's not so easily forget the past. Old dogs don't learn new tricks.

Ford needs to play we like it or not, they guy is going to be here next year also, I like watson but he will be gone as soon as season ends. They have to play the guy if they want to move the him either this or next year.

Justin Tyme
02-07-2010, 01:07 PM
They are losing their All Star player, they don't really have a pf who can do much, their two guard is delfino and their three guard is S House, yes the pacers have more talent.


Not hardly. The Bucks have more overall talent at PF than the Pacers, and that's with Warrick only playing 3 minutes last night. Combine him with Mbah a Moute and Ilyasova and it's not even close who has more talent at PF.

Bucks have better PG's in Jennings and Ridnour, and Ridnour is better than any Pacer PG is this year.

Bogut is by far better than Hibbert a center.

The Pacers are more talented with Granger at SF, and SG. Having more talent at 2 out of 5 positions doesn't make the Pacers a more talented team.

Naptown_Seth
02-07-2010, 02:42 PM
If there's a draft pick I totally missed on it's Moute. I watched tons of UCLA but I just didn't see him playing this well. I liked him but not as an NBA PF type. He and Taj Gibson are both much better than I would have guessed.

Naptown_Seth
02-07-2010, 02:49 PM
the key to this game is the same as the reason why the Heat give the Pacers tons of problems.

The Bucks like the Heat play an aggresive presurring defense, they play the passing lanes, they get up on the Pacers and try to make every pass contested. Pacers don't respond to that type of defense well at all.

Pacers defense after the first quarter I thought was really good, they were playing really hard defensively. I saw a lot of determination and a nice will tonight
IMO passing pressure gets to them because of the type or lack of plays they run. When you improvise on the fly in order to keep the defense "guessing", it's also keeping your teammates guessing. At that point you are hoping your guys read developing opportunities better than the defense does.

IMO a defense that works on passing pressure learns to read where guys want to pass if it's coming from reading on the fly. Where you look, slow reactions to cutters or slow reaction as to when to cut, basic 2 man games and dumps....defenses see this stuff all the time, especially if they are always looking for it.

A playbook with greater detail falls more in line with something you see Manning due with his WR. The ball is going BEFORE the WR is turning to catch it, thus there is nothing for the defender to read.

Defenses can study you on film but the truth is that in the NBA season there isn't a ton of time to do that, and then even if they do they are trying to learn your offense as well as you know it yourself, and that's a lot to ask.

Lord Helmet
02-07-2010, 03:49 PM
For the 2,000th time, we're not getting Wall.

jhondog28
02-07-2010, 04:25 PM
For the 2,000th time, we're not getting Wall.

agreed the Lakers have a better shot than we do

ToasterBusVIP
02-07-2010, 11:26 PM
While I know +/- does not always tell the whole story, I am shocked no one pointed out that l/n TJ was +29, & AJ was just +5. Tonight, AJ was +3 & TJ was -8, but when you look a D.Granger (-19) & Murph & rush were (-12), I think TJ should get some props.
Yes, I will admit there were a few plays where he "Travis Bested" it a bit, but I also saw 5-6 times where he made passes that should have been buckets, but his teamates "screwed the pooch".
TJ showed me that last few nights that he has not forgotten how to play, is not selfish, & is capable of running a team in this league. Why did we not see this TJ earlier t/y? Slump? Style? Murphy or JO'B (they always need included on this board when we are seeking a "Blame", right?)? I'm not sure, but I know he payed well, shot well, & noticably showed he should not be burried on anyones bench - esp. on a team that has won barely > 1/3 of it's games.

Agreed, I think comparatively the Pacers have more talent right now than what the Bucks have (available). What I saw last night was a Bucks team that played tenacious defense and made up for their shortcomings by working together. I also saw the Pacers do that while fighting their way back into the game, but there wasn't enough defensive scrappiness down the stretch for us to keep them from pulling away again.

ToasterBusVIP
02-07-2010, 11:41 PM
Not hardly. The Bucks have more overall talent at PF than the Pacers, and that's with Warrick only playing 3 minutes last night. Combine him with Mbah a Moute and Ilyasova and it's not even close who has more talent at PF.

Bucks have better PG's in Jennings and Ridnour, and Ridnour is better than any Pacer PG is this year.

Bogut is by far better than Hibbert a center.

The Pacers are more talented with Granger at SF, and SG. Having more talent at 2 out of 5 positions doesn't make the Pacers a more talented team.

I would argue with that. Troy gives you more scoring and much, much better rebounding than anyone they can play at PF. The question is with defense, okay it's not really a question more of a fact, so then you're weighing which is more valuable, Troy's offense or the defense of Warrick/Mbah a Moute? (Ilyasova doesn't rate in a defensive conversation). Bogut is still better than Hibbert, although I think in a couple of years we might be able to make a real argument there as well.

Bench, I think, goes in the Pacers favor as well. Our strongest assets off the bench are Dunleavy (or Rush, take your pick), Price, Jones, and Watson who are all capable of starting minutes on this particular team. Theirs are Charlie Bell, Ridnour, Stackhouse (on some nights), and whichever of their PFs is on the bench in their revolving door of talent in that position. I'd take our first four off the bench over theirs.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Outside of Jennings and Bogut, I don't think they've got more talent than us at any particular position or off the bench. With the Bucks, I see guys playing together and playing to their strengths, which is defensive tenacity and taking advantage of turnovers (among the best in the league at it, no surprise with Skiles coaching). With the Pacers more often than not, watching the way we play is like watching a cat trying to fight its way out of a paper bag.