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PacerGuy
02-04-2010, 12:12 AM
... The trade deadline will be here & we will have a better idea what kind of shape we will likely be in and what direction TPTB well be taking us in for +/- the next 12 months.

12 months you ask? While it is possible the off-season could bring moves, the reality is that any team willing to take on one of our expirings will be the same ones willing to pay even more at the deadline n/y. Most of the names that would fit our stated goal of adding a "2nd big name" to this roster will be available THIS off-season, not next. So, IMO, the moves we Make/ Don't Make in the next 15 days will likely key actors in the execution of our "3 Year Plan".

Lets look ahead to 2011 for a moment.
When I look at the possible names that we will have an opportunity to add, I am under-whelmed. The ones who do make me drool a little are mostle RFA's & likely to stay put. The list of pure FA's (eleminating those who will likely be available t/y) is slim at best, leaving the majority of "big names" as either Player Options, or Early Term Options. The list of those who IMO fit out stated goal & fit the age we will likely look to add to our core are as follows:
True FA's: Dirk, T.Parker, C.Landry
RFA's: K.Durant, A.Horford, M.Conely, G.Oden, M.Gasol, J.Noah, J.Green, M.Chalmers
Plater Options: C.Paul, D.Williams, G.wallace
Early Term Option: D.Howard, E.Brand

That's it!
When I look at that list, I do not see many "realilistic" options to use our money on. The RFA's are the most intriguing, but their teams have the choice to match, meaning they are most likely to stay. I still kinda think GO & MC might be a possibility, but that is just a thought).
Now, compare these names to the "Dream list" likely available t/y that we would have on our radar:
(Combo of FA's, RFA's, PO, ETO's):
-James, Wade, Bosh, Mello, Duncan, J.Johnson (all unrealilistic!), Amare, Boozer, R.Gay, D.Lee, Manu, R.Allen, R.Felton, McGrady, Ty.Thomas, ...

The biggest difference is that the '10 list are "stars/ difference makers". The '11 List has a few, but is not anywhere in the same league IMO.
Soo....

Is '11 cap space really worth anything, or should we be working like hell to move any/ all '11 cap expirings NOW in hopes of landing a "Robin" for Danny - (or a new Batman, & demote Danny to Robin!)?

IMO, you strike NOW!!!
Move Murph for Z & a pick before Cle get A.Jamison (like the King wants!) & forget Hickerson, or you likely get "stuck" w/ Murph for 12 more months! Try like hell to get Jeff back on the court t/w, & try to convince a contender he's healthy. If he's not healthy enough to trade, work out a buyout, or hope insurance covers his deal so at least it can be an asset in 11 months when the Insurance covers him (ala M.Harpring t/y, T.Ratliff a few yrs ago). I would like to keep Dun, as I think he is a nice 6th man, but I move him for space t/y if I can (I have recently changed my mind on this!). Pray someone needs/ wants TJ for nothing, but in reality TJ is likely ours, or unless he is completely crazy & walks away. :pray:

15 Days & Counting....
Continue to bash JO'B all you want. Question Danny's commitment & attitude, call out leadership for extending Jeff &/pr not moving him sooner, debate the satistics of small ball, & continue to blame Murphy for the recession/ H1N1, communism, & global warming - but realize this:

In 15 Days, you will know what your Pacers will be, and what the 3 year plan is all about. Do we add payroll or a "Robin" to our "Batman", or do we face 12 more monthe of "Dark Nights?"
Just my thoughts anyway....

Jonathan
02-04-2010, 01:33 AM
I understand your logic, face it I am 100% against making a move. I believe we should see a line up of AJ Price, Brandon Rush, Danny Granger, & Roy Hibbert. B 4 we rush and make a bad trade. Murphy, Dunleavy, & TJ Ford all expiring and a top ten draft pick would be very logical for any contending team to take on. They must give a young player or a quality veteran and two first round picks (later) Face it an expiring contract combined with a top ten pick will land this franchise what it needs ie A Batman. Granger is Robin!!!!

Naptown_Seth
02-04-2010, 01:42 AM
What if Washington does go into full repair mode and gets Jamison moved to CLE. Clearly then they want out from Arenas and his deal, and probably do anyway.

Well we are stuck with Troy then, but they want to shorten GAs contract and aren't just tweeking at that point with Jamison already moved.

TJ Ford and Troy cut off 3 years from Arenas' deal, saving them $60m on the life of his contract. Indy turns two expirings into an all-star...maybe.

It's a huge risk for Indy and the baggage needs to be cleaned up obviously. But despite the nature of his incident, I do see how he could possibly save his image. He's already off to a good, though late, start.

Arenas/Price
Rush/Jones
Granger/Dun
draft pick/Tyler
Roy/Solo/draft pick

I hate to say it given what's just happened, but it's tempting. Sure would sell tickets.

pianoman
02-04-2010, 02:00 AM
What if Washington does go into full repair mode and gets Jamison moved to CLE. Clearly then they want out from Arenas and his deal, and probably do anyway.

Well we are stuck with Troy then, but they want to shorten GAs contract and aren't just tweeking at that point with Jamison already moved.

TJ Ford and Troy cut off 3 years from Arenas' deal, saving them $60m on the life of his contract. Indy turns two expirings into an all-star...maybe.

It's a huge risk for Indy and the baggage needs to be cleaned up obviously. But despite the nature of his incident, I do see how he could possibly save his image. He's already off to a good, though late, start.

Arenas/Price
Rush/Jones
Granger/Dun
draft pick/Tyler
Roy/Solo/draft pick

I hate to say it given what's just happened, but it's tempting. Sure would sell tickets.


Ya know, I could see the media completely bashing this at first, but just look at what Memphis has done. They've made Randolph, and Tinsley look good. Why couldn't we take on Arenas if that meant playoffs again?

Justin Tyme
02-04-2010, 08:54 AM
What if Washington does go into full repair mode and gets Jamison moved to CLE. Clearly then they want out from Arenas and his deal, and probably do anyway.

Well we are stuck with Troy then, but they want to shorten GAs contract and aren't just tweeking at that point with Jamison already moved.

TJ Ford and Troy cut off 3 years from Arenas' deal, saving them $60m on the life of his contract. Indy turns two expirings into an all-star...maybe.

It's a huge risk for Indy and the baggage needs to be cleaned up obviously. But despite the nature of his incident, I do see how he could possibly save his image. He's already off to a good, though late, start.

Arenas/Price
Rush/Jones
Granger/Dun
draft pick/Tyler
Roy/Solo/draft pick

I hate to say it given what's just happened, but it's tempting. Sure would sell tickets.


I can't believe you posted this! Oh, I'm not condeming, it's just as I was doing my daily diligence of looking at the box scores I was thinking about the samething. I was also thinking of Blatche too. I've always kept my eye on him over the years. A few years ago when he was a RFA I wanted Bird to go after him, but at that time the Pacers still had the Hulk. :(

My fear of getting Arenas isn't the baggage issue, but his health issue. We all know the Pacers,and the luck they have with injuries.

Justin Tyme
02-04-2010, 09:02 AM
Why couldn't we take on Arenas if that meant playoffs again?


Two words.... Herb Simon.


He can't afford another hit PR wise with a "Bad Boy" having problems, and the extra 60 mil salary of GA over the future years.

Lance George
02-04-2010, 09:06 AM
What if Washington does go into full repair mode and gets Jamison moved to CLE... (snip)

Well we are stuck with Troy then... (snip)

I've seen multiple reports saying multiple teams were interested in Murphy. I doubt it's Cleveland or bust.

OakMoses
02-04-2010, 09:07 AM
If you bring in Arenas, which for as cheap as Seth is talking about here, isn't a bad idea. You should talk Dungy into mentoring him very publicly just like he's done with Vick. Arenas with Dungy on his side is 1,000,000 times more palatable in Indy than Arenas by himself.

Lance George
02-04-2010, 09:20 AM
For the record, I was on the Ford & Murphy for Arenas bandwagon over a month ago:


If Washington really wants to get out of Arenas' deal, we could offer them Ford & Murphy.

Arenas has played in all 29 of the Wizards' games this year and is putting up 23/7/4. He had a rough past couple of years due to injuries, but he's back to All-Star form this season. I'm not one who thinks we'll land anything major in free agency (think along the lines of what Detroit landed this past summer), so yes, I'd strongly consider it.

Arenas' stock dropped like a rock after playing just 15 games over the previous two seasons, but he looks back to his old self to me. 22.7 ppg (10th) and a career-high 6.9 apg (9th), and perhaps most importantly, he's missed a total of ZERO games this season.

It's oft-discussed that the Pacers may be better off trading for an established talent rather than gambling in free agency. If that's the case, I'm not sure anything better's gonna come along in the next 14 months than Arenas. He can help the team win now, and he's an exciting, 'name player' that would draw interest from the more casual Pacer fans.

Of course this was all prior to the handgun drama, which was likely the nail in the coffin to any proposed deal, assuming it was even feasible to begin with.

Anthem
02-04-2010, 09:55 AM
I'm uninterested in Arenas.

There's only one trade that needs to happen this season... we need to move one of our big contracts for capspace. That'll give us room to use our exceptions this summer without fear of the LT. Ideally that would be Ford, although I dunno how likely that is. I'd love it if we picked up a young prospect or some picks, but they're not dealbreakers for me.

This summer we can begin making bigger moves, but at the very least we need a cap move before the deadline.

Brad8888
02-04-2010, 10:13 AM
I'm uninterested in Arenas.

Agreed about Arenas. His uniform number both indicates my level of interest in him, as well as the contract that it would take to get even a team like us to have any interest in him because of the extreme likelihood of additional issues with him whether they are health issues or other issues.

Leopards, once they are adults, rarely change their spots.

Infinite MAN_force
02-04-2010, 10:50 AM
Aquiring Gilbert Arenas at this point is pure insanity. He never took Washington anywhere, for one thing, and there is way too much baggage there to justify that move... no matter how "cheap" it comes. Cheap of course not being relative to his massive contract we would have to pay.

vnzla81
02-04-2010, 10:53 AM
I prefer Baron Davis, his contract is not as big and his health this year is been better.

CableKC
02-04-2010, 02:04 PM
I prefer Baron Davis, his contract is not as big and his health this year is been better.
Ignoring that he will not want to come to Indy ( small market compared to LA ).....his contract isn't as big as Arenas....but still big enough for a 30 year old PG that has a history of being injury prone ( he'll be owed $14.75 mil in 2012-2013 at the end of his contract at the age of 33 ) and has a history being a Diva.

Shade
02-04-2010, 02:09 PM
Don't expect much, if anything, to happen this season at the trade deadline. I think we'll make a ton of changes next season, though.

CableKC
02-04-2010, 02:14 PM
I've seen multiple reports saying multiple teams were interested in Murphy. I doubt it's Cleveland or bust.
Just to get this thread back on track......we've heard multiple reports of other Teams being interested in Murphy...but we have not really been given any names or real details.

Unless Bird is still working the phones and it hasn't really been leaked by other sources, given that we have heard nothing outside of Cleveland leads me to believe that there may have been some initial interest...but none that have really progressed to the level of talks that Bird had with Cleveland.

IMHO.....when it comes to Murphy....it is Cleveland or Bust. I've always like Foster....but if we don't move Murphy in 2 weeks.....I really hope that he does retire after this wretched season ends. If Murphy isn't dumped....we need to shave off some $$$ from the 2010-2011 SalaryCap just to give us some breathing room in the Summer.

For the record, I think that we are going to regret not simply dumping Murphy for Cap relief before the 2009-2010 Trade deadline. I don't think that we will get the type of deal that many of you are hoping for. At best...we will be getting back a Player(s) with a longer contract ( think Andres Nocioni or Corey Maggette as opposed to Amare or Joe Johnson ) where all we will end up doing is "kicking the can" down the road when it comes to having any SalaryCap/Financial Flexibility ( think what happened on a Financial end to the Team when we traded SJax/Harrington's shorter contracts for MurphLeavy's contracts ). I know that many of you disagree with me....but IMHO, that is the likely scenario.

Naptown_Seth
02-04-2010, 02:30 PM
For the record, I was on the Ford & Murphy for Arenas bandwagon over a month ago:





Of course this was all prior to the handgun drama, which was likely the nail in the coffin to any proposed deal, assuming it was even feasible to begin with.
Not trying to step on your thing at all. Normally I'm not that big on trade ideas. Someone mentioned getting him at a party this weekend, not someone who knows the team nearly at the level we do, and it got me wondering.

Then when you add in the CLE, WSH, IND, Troy dynamic and the fact that the Pacers would love to turn Troy/TJ into something, it started sounding a lot less crazy and a lot more "two sides both in tough spots help each other out".


I'm NOT an Arenas fan really and I worry about health a ton. But OTOH the Troy, TJ, Dun thing has been really tough and ticket sales are in huge trouble. If GA could play next year and isn't in jail you have to wonder.

Then again is it even possible that they would try to do this before the deadline? Seems pretty big and with him out you don't get any PR help this year.

But Troy and TJ both moved....that's quite a lot. Tough call between this and they Troy for Z (buyout) and 29th pick.

Naptown_Seth
02-04-2010, 02:34 PM
And Cable I'm really mostly in your camp here. You know I hated the GSW move from day 1, primarily from a cost perspective (and yet I put in that GA deal which can be seen as something similar ;) ).

I do think too many posters have this vision of huge players coming back for either expiring deals or as FA signings eventually. I don't think the Pacers will add significant talent through either of those methods.

CableKC
02-04-2010, 02:56 PM
And Cable I'm really mostly in your camp here. You know I hated the GSW move from day 1, primarily from a cost perspective (and yet I put in that GA deal which can be seen as something similar ;) ).

I do think too many posters have this vision of huge players coming back for either expiring deals or as FA signings eventually. I don't think the Pacers will add significant talent through either of those methods.
Of course, it's entirely possible that we work out some S&T for some Top Tier FA.....but at what cost? BRush? Hansbrough? Multiple 1st round picks? Willingness to take on future Salary? Giving up BRush or Hansbrough along with a single 1st round pick may be worth it ( which I assume would be their starting asking price ).....but anything beyond that? That's questionable.

But even if I ignore all that.....I think that Teams willing to do a S&T for their Top Tier FA will field better offers from Teams that are under the SalaryCap ( and therefore send back a TPE instead of actual Players that won't affect their SalaryCap IF THEY choose not to exercize it ) and can offer more then just a Pick ( such as better prospects that they can afford to part with....something that we can't afford at this point ). On top of that....you think that any Top Tier FA will want to come to Indy? Many of them are on record saying that they want to end up on a Championship ( if not Playoff ) bound Team. We're no where near that for the next 2 seasons.

IMHO...the likely scenario is that we'd end up with some Player(s) that won't impact the Team as much as we'd need in order to make a difference at the cost of any future Financial/SalaryCap flexiblility that we have. Again...think the GSW trade and what it did to this Team on a Financial and Talent level.

cinotimz
02-04-2010, 03:05 PM
Not trying to step on your thing at all. Normally I'm not that big on trade ideas. Someone mentioned getting him at a party this weekend, not someone who knows the team nearly at the level we do, and it got me wondering.

Then when you add in the CLE, WSH, IND, Troy dynamic and the fact that the Pacers would love to turn Troy/TJ into something, it started sounding a lot less crazy and a lot more "two sides both in tough spots help each other out".


I'm NOT an Arenas fan really and I worry about health a ton. But OTOH the Troy, TJ, Dun thing has been really tough and ticket sales are in huge trouble. If GA could play next year and isn't in jail you have to wonder.

Then again is it even possible that they would try to do this before the deadline? Seems pretty big and with him out you don't get any PR help this year.

But Troy and TJ both moved....that's quite a lot. Tough call between this and they Troy for Z (buyout) and 29th pick.

I think Birds position is relatively safe. However, if he suggested the Pacers make an Arenas deal, I think he would be fired on the spot.

Arenas epitomizes the type a player that put us into the mess that we are currently in. And I disagree he would fill up the seats. And Herb Simon knows that.

The guy just pleaded guilty to a felony gun charge. He may have to spend time in jail. How quickly we forget Tinsley, Jackson, Daniels, etc.

Pacers make that deal and the vast majority of the fanbase would say WTF? They could play the games at a junior high gym and not sell out.

They are finally nearing the completion of digging out from under that era of lawbreaking primadonnas. Murphy and Dun will soon be expiring. Do you really think theyre gonna go out and get another one-only this time one that makes 20 million a year? Not to mention the fact Arenas plays ball in such a fashion that many would despise. Hes the consummate gunner.

Seems all the losing has affected our sense of reality a bit. There are two chances they deal for Gil. Slim and none.

And Slim just left town.

BornReady
02-04-2010, 03:25 PM
looks like charlottes hardcore shopping augustin for a vet bigman
i personally wouldnt mind seeing him here in indy

CableKC
02-04-2010, 04:04 PM
looks like charlottes hardcore shopping augustin for a vet bigman
i personally wouldnt mind seeing him here in indy
Odd....I thought that one of the reasons why they drafted Augustin was because they missed out on trying to trade for Ford ( a few seasons ago ).

I know that they are doing better now and probably looking to not make any real change....but I guess Felton must be doing much better.

Too bad that Foster is out....Foster totally fits the type of Player that Brown likes to have on his Team.

jeffg-body
02-06-2010, 12:27 AM
I could see Bosh thinking of Indy as a place to come to. Think about playing next to Danny, Hibby, Rush and AJ. Maybe he thinks he could be the guy that puts this young core over the top to being competitive.

NapTonius Monk
02-06-2010, 08:47 AM
I would love to pick up Tayshaun Prince in a Derrick McKey-like roll.

NapTonius Monk
02-06-2010, 09:03 AM
I can't believe you posted this! Oh, I'm not condeming, it's just as I was doing my daily diligence of looking at the box scores I was thinking about the samething. I was also thinking of Blatche too. I've always kept my eye on him over the years. A few years ago when he was a RFA I wanted Bird to go after him, but at that time the Pacers still had the Hulk. :(

My fear of getting Arenas isn't the baggage issue, but his health issue. We all know the Pacers,and the luck they have with injuries.

I'd rather have Caron Butler. That's Robin! Plus he has no major off court stuff to worry about.

Justin Tyme
02-06-2010, 09:58 AM
I could see Bosh thinking of Indy as a place to come to. Think about playing next to Danny, Hibby, Rush and AJ. Maybe he thinks he could be the guy that puts this young core over the top to being competitive.


Thinking and reality is 2 different things. The Pacers don't have the money to sign Bosh.... or any other Allstar FA

sportfireman
02-06-2010, 11:05 AM
I'd rather have Caron Butler. That's Robin! Plus he has no major off court stuff to worry about.

We need more than Robin......we need Superman!!!

Hicks
02-06-2010, 12:20 PM
I would love to pick up Tayshaun Prince in a Derrick McKey-like roll.

Pretty sure Tayshaun died last summer.

odeez
02-06-2010, 12:32 PM
I'd rather have Caron Butler. That's Robin! Plus he has no major off court stuff to worry about.

I like Caron as well, but where would we play him, at the 4 and play Danny at the 3? I kind of like that, but isn't his natural position the 3? He would stretch the defense, but how is his low post defense, don't think he is known for that. His deal is manageable...

Anyways 15 days we will see. Moving Troy is our best option.

Hicks
02-06-2010, 12:39 PM
Caron would probably play the 2.

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 12:40 PM
I like Caron as well, but where would we play him, at the 4 and play Danny at the 3? I kind of like that, but isn't his natural position the 3? He would stretch the defense, but how is his low post defense, don't think he is known for that. His deal is manageable...

Anyways 15 days we will see. Moving Troy is our best option.

Lot of overlap with CB, DG, BR, DJ (assuming the last two were still here). Only one of those four who should ever see time at the four is Danny and that's obviously debateable. The other three are wings period with the Danny obviously figuring in heavily at SF, too.

We need 1 & 4 bad. The above is the same issue with an Iguodala. Of course, it's purely dependent on what other moves are made. For the sake of argument, would you take CB if you had to move out BR?

Tom White
02-06-2010, 01:24 PM
We need more than Robin......we need Superman!!!

I thought something similar when I read QuickRelease's post. Although I think of Granger as a good player, he isn't Batman. Actually, this year, he's been more like a Green Arrow that needs glasses.

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 01:46 PM
We need more than Robin......we need Superman!!!

Been saying this for a long time now but nobody seems to care, Danny is not the number one guy in a good team, we need to find that number one guy, regardless of position, I we think that Danny is going to take this team to the promise land, we are going to be waiting for a long long time.

sportfireman
02-06-2010, 07:44 PM
Been saying this for a long time now but nobody seems to care, Danny is not the number one guy in a good team, we need to find that number one guy, regardless of position, I we think that Danny is going to take this team to the promise land, we are going to be waiting for a long long time.

i've been saying for the longest that Danny is like Pippen........and Pippen was what??? A career long assistant to the leader. Pacers need a consistent allstar not a drive by allstar.

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 07:49 PM
i've been saying for the longest that Danny is like Pippen........and Pippen was what??? A career long assistant to the leader. Pacers need a consistent allstar not a drive by allstar.


I undestand what are you trying to say, but Danny is not even close to Pippen, I'll be happy if he had a Pippen and Danny.

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 07:50 PM
I think there's a lot of people on here who would agree with you guys on Granger being cut out for the 1A roll as opposed to the top dog. The harder question is how do you obtain the #1 guys as we know they don't grow on trees. We certainly seem to have a complement of young guys who can grow into good role players.

It bears noting that if that elusive #1 is actually obtained, but not a 4 or 1, it still will require upgrades at those positions. We are heavy on the wing and have a good 5 prospect. You can't be a championship caliber team without strong PG play/leadership unless you get a Kobe or a LeBron level guy elsewhere. Even then, you can't have PG chopped liver.

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 07:51 PM
I undestand what are you trying to say, but Danny is not even close to Pippen, I'll be happy if he had a Pippen and Danny.

On a basic level I do not dispute this, but if you put DG next to Jordan (or that level of player) he'd look a lot more Pippenesque real fast.

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 07:55 PM
I think there's a lot of people on here who would agree with you guys on Granger being cut out for the 1A roll as opposed to the top dog. The harder question is how do you obtain the #1 guys as we know they don't grow on trees. We certainly seem to have a complement of young guys who can grow into good role players.

It bears noting that if that elusive #1 is actually obtained, but not a 4 or 1, it still will require upgrades at those positions. We are heavy on the wing and have a good 5 prospect. You can't be a championship caliber team without strong PG play/leadership unless you get a Kobe or a LeBron level guy elsewhere. Even then, you can't have PG chopped liver.

I think that if the draft is deep enough the pacers could get either a top wing better than Danny or a top PF who could be the Batman to Robin.

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 08:00 PM
On a basic level I do not dispute this, but if you put DG next to Jordan (or that level of player) he'd look a lot more Pippenesque real fast.

He would look better of course but remember that Pippen could have been a franchise player if he was in another team, at the same time Jordan made him better in practice pushing him hard everyday. I said this in another thread, but for me Danny is closer to Rashard Lewis a guy who likes to shoot jumpers and does not drive to the basket much.

sportfireman
02-06-2010, 09:39 PM
He would look better of course but remember that Pippen could have been a franchise player if he was in another team, at the same time Jordan made him better in practice pushing him hard everyday. I said this in another thread, but for me Danny is closer to Rashard Lewis a guy who likes to shoot jumpers and does not drive to the basket much.
Remember what Pippen (the team) did once Jordan left?????????

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Remember what Pippen (the team) did once Jordan left?????????

actually pippen took them to the easter conference final when Jordan retired the 1st time, he averaged 22pts 8.7reb and 5.6apg with a record of 55 wins and 27loses, losing to New York in game seven. Danny can't even take this team to the playoffs when teams under .500 are making it.

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 10:07 PM
He would look better of course but remember that Pippen could have been a franchise player if he was in another team, at the same time Jordan made him better in practice pushing him hard everyday. I said this in another thread, but for me Danny is closer to Rashard Lewis a guy who likes to shoot jumpers and does not drive to the basket much.

I don't know. You seem to be contradicting yourself here. If it took so much of Jordan's influence and simply playing next to him to bring out good play from Pippen-which IIRC took a while to happen-how would Pip have been capable of being a sure fire frachise guy if he was handed the main man mantle sans the presence of one of the all-time greats?

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 10:16 PM
I don't know. You seem to be contradicting yourself here. If it took so much of Jordan's influence and simply playing next to him to bring out good play from Pippen-which IIRC took a while to happen-how would Pip have been capable of being a sure fire frachise guy if he was handed the main man mantle sans the presence of one of the all-time greats?

they guy could have been a franchise player with or without Jordan, what I am saying is that Jordan made him an even better player by playing againts him in practice and pushing him hard, he was going to be a really good player but Jordan made him one of the best 50 ever.

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 10:33 PM
they guy could have been a franchise player with or without Jordan, what I am saying is that Jordan made him an even better player by playing againts him in practice and pushing him hard, he was going to be a really good player but Jordan made him one of the best 50 ever.

Well, if you go all the way back to your original premise where you brought in the Pippen comparison idea, you said Danny isn't at the level to take us to the "promised" land, which I take to mean the NBA championship.

By that benchmark, Pippen never did that even the year Jordan retired. I also recall he didn't do squat in Portland after his Chitown days when the Blazers thought they were getting this key guy to push them over the top. He certainly wasn't the #1 to Jordan's 1A in the Bull's dynasty.

So what exactly are you trying to say here? How can you really say with such certainty that he Pipplen would have been a franchise player leading somebody to the promised land without Jordan, Ho Grant, Phil Jackson, Rodman, etc.

To compare that context to DG trying to lead this combination of players under JOB to the promised land just seems misguided on so many levels. And I still think you are underestimating the importance of Pippen playing with Jordan in what Pippen accomplished and became as a player. Sure the guy had great talent, but what you are basically saying is akin to saying take Jordan out of the equation and Pippen leads them to multiple championships.

vnzla81
02-06-2010, 10:41 PM
Well, if you go all the way back to your original premise where you brought in the Pippen comparison idea, you said Danny isn't at the level to take us to the "promised" land, which I take to mean the NBA championship.

By that benchmark, Pippen never did that even the year Jordan retired. I also recall he didn't do squat in Portland after his Chitown days when the Blazers thought they were getting this key guy to push them over the top. He certainly wasn't the #1 to Jordan's 1A in the Bull's dynasty.

So what exactly are you trying to say here? How can you really say with such certainty that he Pipplen would have been a franchise player leading somebody to the promised land without Jordan, Ho Grant, Phil Jackson, Rodman, etc.

To compare that context to DG trying to lead this combination of players under JOB to the promised land just seems misguided on so many levels. And I still think you are underestimating the importance of Pippen playing with Jordan in what Pippen accomplished and became as a player. Sure the guy had great talent, but what you are basically saying is akin to saying take Jordan out of the equation and Pippen leads them to multiple championships.

I never said that, what I am trying to say is that Danny is not even close to Pippen. He was the second to Jordan but he was still one of the best players in the league, is like having Lebron and Durant on the same team I think.

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 10:47 PM
I never said that, what I am trying to say is that Danny is not even close to Pippen. He was the second to Jordan but he was still one of the best players in the league, is like having Lebron and Durant on the same team I think.

And what I'm saying is you take Jordan away from Pippen and he's still a good player, but he's probably not one of the best players in the league and you can't underestimate the extreme significance of Jordan bringing the level he attained out of him. So put DG next to Kobe or LeBron today and I don't think the Pipeen comparison would be far off, both b/c Granger is a good player who would improve playing next to and being pushed and mentored by those guys and the coaches they have.

D-BONE
02-06-2010, 10:50 PM
I never said that, what I am trying to say is that Danny is not even close to Pippen. He was the second to Jordan but he was still one of the best players in the league, is like having Lebron and Durant on the same team I think.

And while you did not say it, you certainly intimate it if you read the sequence of your threads. It's unfair to DG to state he cant' lead a team to the promised land then bring up the comparison to Pippen who was never charged with to bear the direct responsibility to do that.

And I'm saying this as a guy who agrees with you. Danny is unlikely to lead a team to the promised land withou another player of equal or better stature. Pippen did not prove to be different in that sense as good as he was.

PacerGuy
02-07-2010, 12:09 AM
And while you did not say it, you certainly intimate it if you read the sequence of your threads. It's unfair to DG to state he cant' lead a team to the promised land then bring up the comparison to Pippen who was never charged with to bear the direct responsibility to do that.

And I'm saying this as a guy who agrees with you. Danny is unlikely to lead a team to the promised land withou another player of equal or better stature. Pippen did not prove to be different in that sense as good as he was.

IIRC, Pippen "Asked Out" of a game on the last play of a play-off game - w/o Jordan of course, & they were a 1st rd. exit. No way he does that w/ MJ around, or he gets punched ala S.Kerr (& others).
Look up Pippen in the dictionary & you will not find "Robin", nor will you find "Batman" - you will only see "Louis Lane" AKA "Sumerman's Bytch"!
IMO only Kobe & the King are capable of having "bytch's" in today's NBA, but neither have dragged one to (questionable) "Top 50" status like MJ did.

If Kobe is the "Mamba" & L.James is "The King", then MJ should be forever known as the "Mongoose God", because w/ all do respect, he is what both KB & LJ espire to be. He is what every boy, man, & ninja espires to be. He was, & likely be for years & years to come, "The Best"!

BlueNGold
02-07-2010, 01:03 AM
IIRC, Pippen "Asked Out" of a game on the last play of a play-off game - w/o Jordan of course, & they were a 1st rd. exit.

That's half right. Pippen's team lost in the second round in 1994. It just felt like the 1st round with how dominant they were in the 90's. Jordan returned at the end of 1995 and the Bulls lost again in the second round...before their second three-peat.

As for Pippen, yes he benefitted tremendously playing with Jordan. However, I watched hundreds of Bulls games live...and Pippen was on a different planet defensively compared to Danny. Just on the basis of defense, Pippen was a more talented basketball player. Scottie also had a better handle and got to the rim more often and more effectively than Danny. ...but the only substantial difference was defense...which is half the game and probably a big reason why Pippen was considered so highly.

As for Scottie from a leadership standpoint, I think he stunk terribly. He couldn't deal with the expectations in Chicago after MJ went to go play ball...but he also never played on a team anywhere close to this bad...this or last year. His worst team as a Bull went .573....and his year without Jordan the Bulls were 55-27....or .671.

PacerGuy
02-07-2010, 12:13 PM
As for Pippen, yes he benefitted tremendously playing with Jordan. However, I watched hundreds of Bulls games live...and Pippen was on a different planet defensively compared to Danny. Just on the basis of defense, Pippen was a more talented basketball player. Scottie also had a better handle and got to the rim more often and more effectively than Danny. ...but the only substantial difference was defense...which is half the game and probably a big reason why Pippen was considered so highly.

Correct on all accounts.
I was not trying to say Danny was as good or better then Danny, I was talking about how much Pippen was "because" of MJ. IMO he maintained such a high defensive presence throughout his career because MJ cared so much & lead by example on defense. There's no doubt they made each other better, thus the respect they have for one another.

Now, back to topic a bit:

"Who is the best (reasonable) "Superman/ Batman" for Danny?"

-I would love C.Boozer. IMO he is the best mix of strength/toughness, scoring, robounding, etc. to aid both Danny & Roy. The better Roy gets on the interior, the better Danny (& this team) will be.

sportfireman
02-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Correct on all accounts.
I was not trying to say Danny was as good or better then Danny, I was talking about how much Pippen was "because" of MJ. IMO he maintained such a high defensive presence throughout his career because MJ cared so much & lead by example on defense. There's no doubt they made each other better, thus the respect they have for one another.

Now, back to topic a bit:

"Who is the best (reasonable) "Superman/ Batman" for Danny?"

-I would love C.Boozer. IMO he is the best mix of strength/toughness, scoring, robounding, etc. to aid both Danny & Roy. The better Roy gets on the interior, the better Danny (& this team) will be.

Im thinking a hard noses defensive allstar guard..........a big man would be nice but i think he (Danny) needs help on the perimeter.

PacerGuy
02-07-2010, 10:29 PM
Im thinking a hard noses defensive allstar guard..........a big man would be nice but i think he (Danny) needs help on the perimeter.

Who you got? Name?