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Trophy
02-03-2010, 04:52 PM
Something I've been seeing here among fellow fans is that we don't support each player on the team.

Some if not most of the daily posters here don't support all of the players on the Pacers. Myself included. I'll admit that I point out some individual players and people who are members of the team. I know we're having a bad year and everything is a mess when trying to win, but we all need to show support to those who get the time and generally those who are on the team.

The player that hasn't been supported is Troy Murphy. It seems to me that once these rumors started, the whole board became a place to dislike him. I'm not saying that people should like him or every player on the team, but show support. He's a member of the Pacers, he's our PF (well supposed to be).

Last month when I went to the game in New Jersey, Troy tossed me his game used shooting shirt and I didn't mention it here because I wasn't sure what kind of feedback I'd get due to the lack of his support here.

To me, people hope he does well so he's traded is not being a good fan of the team. You should hope he does well for the Pacers and hope he helps lead us to wins. Who cares about the other teams? We as fans only want our team, the Pacers to have the success.

I'm not doing this to show I'm a fan of Troy, I'm doing this to show I'm a fan of the Pacers. Again, you don't have to like everyone on the team, but to be a fan and want the team to win, support them. Each individual makes up the team. Believing one player is the cause of losing just doesn't seem right. It's about the whole team.

d_c
02-03-2010, 04:56 PM
Personally, I don't really have an attachment to any of the players on the teams I watch. I don't support players. I support the team and whatever is ultimately best for the team in the LONG RUN.

I'd trade them all if it mean improving the team in the long run. Without hestitation.

Trophy
02-03-2010, 05:00 PM
Personally, I don't really have an attachment to any of the players on the teams I watch. I don't support players. I support the team and whatever is ultimately best for the team in the LONG RUN.

I'd trade them all if it mean improving the team in the long run. Without hestitation.

You need players to make up a team.

I'm saying support those who are on the team at the time.

d_c
02-03-2010, 05:03 PM
You need players to make up a team.

I'm saying support those who are on the team at the time.

If I don't feel those players are going to be part of a team's long term success, then I don't really care that they're part of the team.

Get rid of them and find players who can be successful. Talent wins in this league. Not a bunch of nice guys who you happen to like on a personal level.

Peck
02-03-2010, 05:05 PM
Don't take this the wrong way Trophy because I get where you are coming from, but nobody really can say what a fan is or isn't.

Anthem
02-03-2010, 05:06 PM
If it's not ok to dislike a player, what makes it ok to dislike a coach? Or even the front office?

I care about the Pacers more than any individual on the team, player or otherwise.

jhondog28
02-03-2010, 05:08 PM
I support the team as a whole and I dont support losing. I personally wish Troy the best because I think he has been a stand up guy for both the city and the team, but I just dont like what he brings to the team from a winning standpoint. I am a huge Dun fan and he goes through the same kind of things Murphy does...so I know Murph is not alone.

Trophy
02-03-2010, 05:11 PM
If it's not ok to dislike a player, what makes it ok to dislike a coach? Or even the front office?

I care about the Pacers more than any individual on the team, player or otherwise.

It's fine if you dislike anyone part of the team, but as a fan, there should be support.

Mr. Sobchak
02-03-2010, 05:12 PM
As a true fan I want what is best for THE TEAM. If that means that we would be better off as a team if Troy was benched/traded/whatever then so be it - I will vocalize that opinion. Look, I appreciate that you are a fan of Troy, Trophy. It is good to support players you are a fan of, but for me it comes down to this: Team = 1st, Troy, Danny, Brandon, Roy as individuals = 2nd. Right now Troy is hurting this team more than helping. It's not his fault per se - its just the reality of the situation.

Dr. Awesome
02-03-2010, 05:13 PM
I support whats best for the team, not an individual player.

By your logic, if the Pacers traded all their players away for essentially a NBDL team, you would still root for the players going 0-82? That just doesn't make sense. Whats the difference when you bash Bird for drafting a player you don't like or making a trade you don't like? I want whats best for the team, if that means trading a player, then thats what I'm rooting for.

Trophy
02-03-2010, 05:13 PM
Don't take this the wrong way Trophy because I get where you are coming from, but nobody really can say what a fan is or isn't.

I agree. There's numorous definitions of a fan.

PostArtestEra
02-03-2010, 05:16 PM
This always comes up with teams that lack consistency and an identity. If rotations constantly change and we, as a fanbase, have no idea what the team is trying to do, then it is almost impossible to get attached to the players.

Take Boston as an opposite example. They have the same starting five game in and game out. They have great structure on both sides of the ball. Go ahead and ask any Celtics fan how he would feel about the team trading Paul Pierce.

And it isn't just a matter of winning, because winning teams can lack consistency and identity too. In these cases, although the team may do well, the fanbase will likely feel ambivalent at best about the players. Likewise, struggling teams can have a philosophy and enough consistency to get the fans attached to certain players.

jhondog28
02-03-2010, 05:19 PM
This always comes up with teams that lack consistency and an identity. If rotations constantly change and we, as a fanbase, have no idea what the team is trying to do, then it is almost impossible to get attached to the players.

Take Boston as an opposite example. They have the same starting five game in and game out. They have great structure on both sides of the ball. Go ahead and ask any Celtics fan how he would feel about the team trading Paul Pierce.

And it isn't just a matter of winning, because winning teams can lack consistency and identity too. In these cases, although the team may do well, the fanbase will likely feel ambivalent at best about the players. Likewise, struggling teams can have a philosophy and enough consistency to get the fans attached to certain players.

That was poetic. Seriously quite impressive...no green needed.

Anthem
02-03-2010, 05:21 PM
It's fine if you dislike anyone part of the team, but as a fan, there should be support.
I'm assuming that's a generic "you" and that you don't mean me personally.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=49858

McKeyFan
02-03-2010, 05:22 PM
Isn't this kind of like supporting the President even though you didn't vote for him?

There is a place to criticize players and coaches. There is a time and place to support them as the current players/starters/coaches.

All that can happen at the same time. In fact, it must.

It just gets a little out of whack around here because this is a fairly pure free speech zone for Pacer fans. This is the place to find a lot of criticism. This isn't the place to find balance.

Trophy
02-03-2010, 05:22 PM
I'm all for team first. I want us to look good and I want us to have success.

For all seasons, we change as a team and each year good or bad I'm saying to support whoever comes on to the team.

Trophy
02-03-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm assuming that's a generic "you" and that you don't mean me personally.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=49858

You as in everyone in general. Not towards you personally.

ChicagoJ
02-03-2010, 06:27 PM
Oh goody, the "true fan" discussion again!!

25 years ago, I was screaming at George Irvine to sit Herb Williams' @$$ and his six T/O's per game (usually all during his first five-minute rotation) on the bench.

So what does that make me?

A: glutton for punishment (?) Perhaps I should have given up back then and saved myself from the pain of being a Pacers fan.

the jaddler
02-03-2010, 06:37 PM
Fan - 1 : an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or a performing art) usually as a spectator
2 : an ardent admirer or enthusiast (as of a celebrity or a pursuit)

so with that if you say your a fan of the Pacers that means you are a fan of the whole team...every player, every coach, and there front office!

NUFF SAID!

chrisjacobs7
02-03-2010, 06:42 PM
I support and root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back.

bellisimo
02-03-2010, 06:46 PM
Believing one player is the cause of losing just doesn't seem right. It's about the whole team.

you might want to repeat this bit to all the haters of Artest, JO, Tinsley, SJax, heck put in pretty much any player that wore the jersey of the Pacers and someone probably would put a part of the losing on them...

you can't satisfy everyone - not you...not me....certainly not the players.

i appreciate you trying to stick up for your favorite player - but the ground for the argument isn't really valid.

as long as the team is getting supported - the players should feel the support as well...

PaceBalls
02-03-2010, 06:50 PM
I really do not like Troy Murphy or Mike Dunleavy, in fact I dislike them so much I want them off of the team. Same goes for the coach.
I am sure they are nice guys and all, but I just don't like them at all as basketball players.
We aren't all stuck together on a stranded island where we have to make it work for the good of the team. Certainly not as a fan. And as a fan I want to see the team win and not be completely pathetic.
If fans of them think less of my fandom because of that... I guess I will have to live with that.

Roaming Gnome
02-03-2010, 06:52 PM
I ****ing hate when someone tries to tell me how to be a fan, or how to support my team. Sorry Trophy, I vehemently disagree with your stance to the point that I'm offended by it!

jhondog28
02-03-2010, 06:56 PM
I really do not like Troy Murphy or Mike Dunleavy, in fact I dislike them so much I want them off of the team. Same goes for the coach.
I am sure they are nice guys and all, but I just don't like them at all as basketball players.
We aren't all stuck together on a stranded island where we have to make it work for the good of the team. Certainly not as a fan. And as a fan I want to see the team win and not be completely pathetic.
If fans of them think less of my fandom because of that... I guess I will have to live with that.

I think less of you...now live

vnzla81
02-03-2010, 07:00 PM
Personally, I don't really have an attachment to any of the players on the teams I watch. I don't support players. I support the team and whatever is ultimately best for the team in the LONG RUN.

I'd trade them all if it mean improving the team in the long run. Without hestitation.

I agree with this, trade them all............;)

Trophy
02-03-2010, 07:02 PM
I'm not looking to force anyone to change their personal views on anything along the lines of this subject.

As mentioned, a fan is how they want to be.

I want to make my opinion clear. I think it's good to support who's on the team during their time with the team.

You don't have to like every person, but for the time being, it's good to support them as members of your favorite team.

I'm all for playoffs and beyond and if it means re-doing the whole team to get better, I'd be in.

Trophy
02-03-2010, 07:13 PM
Can this be closed to avoid further disgreement?

Sorry for bringing up this pointless topic. We are all true fans!

Roaming Gnome
02-03-2010, 07:19 PM
I don't see any reason to close it.

vnzla81
02-03-2010, 07:20 PM
I'm not looking to force anyone to change their personal views on anything along the lines of this subject.

As mentioned, a fan is how they want to be.

I want to make my opinion clear. I think it's good to support who's on the team during their time with the team.

You don't have to like every person, but for the time being, it's good to support them as members of your favorite team.

I'm all for playoffs and beyond and if it means re-doing the whole team to get better, I'd be in.

I understand what are you trying to say, the issue here is that as a fan you need to distance your self for having feelings for players, you need to understand that this is a bussiness and the goal for this team is to win, if a player like Murphy is not helping you win, you need to trade him or sit him, the Troy hate that you see in this blog is not because we hate the guy but is more because we hate the way he is been use in this team.

GO!!!!!
02-03-2010, 07:58 PM
personally I am amazed by some poeple and there " hate " towards Murphey and who ever... has anyone here ever spent ten minutes with the guy in a personal enviorment, had dinner with him, bowled a few pins with him.. I doubt it..

I don't like the way Lebron plays basketball but I don't know Lebron so he could be a real nice guy... I dislike Ron Artest for going in to the stands but he could be a nice guy to his wife and kids.... I don't like Jason Kidd for smacking around his wife a few years ago and hate that he can't shoot the ball very well but darn that kid can pass the ball.. I wish John stockton had a hair stylist when he played for the Jazz but dang that pick and roll was sweet..

I don't know Larry Bird, I don't know Terrence Williams..

I like Indiana, I like the Pacers.. I have my favorites on the team be it because they have hustle, play my position or have a stunning wife...

at the end of the day, I support the Pacers First, then I chose my fav players, if there are none on the team I watch less tape and wait till there are more guys I want to watch... it's pretty simple to me...

I don't hate Murphy for being a poor rebounder, earning a zillion bucks a year or having a thing for cheese burgers, I don't know the guy...

Dr. Awesome
02-03-2010, 08:06 PM
personally I am amazed by some poeple and there " hate " towards Murphey and who ever... has anyone here ever spent ten minutes with the guy in a personal enviorment, had dinner with him, bowled a few pins with him.. I doubt it..

I don't like the way Lebron plays basketball but I don't know Lebron so he could be a real nice guy... I dislike Ron Artest for going in to the stands but he could be a nice guy to his wife and kids.... I don't like Jason Kidd for smacking around his wife a few years ago and hate that he can't shoot the ball very well but darn that kid can pass the ball.. I wish John stockton had a hair stylist when he played for the Jazz but dang that pick and roll was sweet..

I don't know Larry Bird, I don't know Terrence Williams..

I like Indiana, I like the Pacers.. I have my favorites on the team be it because they have hustle, play my position or have a stunning wife...

at the end of the day, I support the Pacers First, then I chose my fav players, if there are none on the team I watch less tape and wait till there are more guys I want to watch... it's pretty simple to me...

I don't hate Murphy for being a poor rebounder, earning a zillion bucks a year or having a thing for cheese burgers, I don't know the guy...

I have not seen one person here say they hate him on a personal level. There is quite a big difference between hating them as players and as people, I think your the only one trying to connect the two.

GO!!!!!
02-03-2010, 08:56 PM
Yes and No...

I don't see people going out of their way to say, I don't know Murphy or Obie on a personal level but his game style sucks or his coaching is ruining my team...

so really the argument can be made either way on the majority of the posts and it's very speculative to how indepth and personal they are...

Is everyone going to add a disclaimer to a post now, this post is made on what I have observed on TV or the Basketball court and in no way endorses or denigrates this persons character and is entirely my opinion and is made with reference to his basketball abilities...

Regardles of the post and reply, my main post was focused on the following..


I like Indiana, I like the Pacers.. I have my favorites on the team be it because they have hustle, play my position or have a stunning wife...

at the end of the day, I support the Pacers First, then I chose my fav players, if there are none on the team I watch less tape and wait till there are more guys I want to watch... it's pretty simple to me...

judicata
02-03-2010, 09:08 PM
Yes and No...

I don't see people going out of their way to say, I don't know Murphy or Obie on a personal level but his game style sucks or his coaching is ruining my team...

so really the argument can be made either way on the majority of the posts and it's very speculative to how indepth and personal they are...

Is everyone going to add a disclaimer to a post now, this post is made on what I have observed on TV or the Basketball court and in no way endorses or denigrates this persons character and is entirely my opinion and is made with reference to his basketball abilities...

Regardles of the post and reply, my main post was focused on the following..


I like Indiana, I like the Pacers.. I have my favorites on the team be it because they have hustle, play my position or have a stunning wife...

at the end of the day, I support the Pacers First, then I chose my fav players, if there are none on the team I watch less tape and wait till there are more guys I want to watch... it's pretty simple to me...

This is a basketball forum and we're talking about basketball players that obviously none of us know personally. I am positive that everyone here is comfortable with the presumption that all "feelings" towards players are based on their game, not their personality.

For proof, look at Seth's post on what a great guy Hibbert is. He makes it a point to note that the post is stepping outside of the norm for evaluating a player. Early on he says:


I'm so impressed with him as a person

As for Murphy, he has the perfect storm for hometown-hate.

1) He was the product of a extremely one-sided trade where the Pacer's front office was a captive participant.

2) His game is ugly, and uninspiring. He shoots transition 3s as his signature move. Not highlight reel stuff.

3) He plays awful defense, "steals" rebounds from teammates, and hardly ever makes lovable hustle players.

4) The team has played better with him injured.

5) His contract is awful, and is strangling this team.

6) He's not long for this team. Because of #1 and #5, Indy is clearly a waypoint.



Now, you take all of those things together, or just a few of them, and you have people who dislike him, and want #6 to come sooner rather than later.

Personally, I have some internal inconsistency action going on with him (and with Marcus Ginyard...Dr. A should be able to appreciate that.) He clearly does good things for this club, but he also clearly has drawbacks and isn't a long term fixture. I want him to do well, but I also want him gone and the guys behind him to get more burn.

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

PaceBalls
02-03-2010, 09:19 PM
The only defending of Murphy I have done on this forum (two words that don't belong in the same sentence) is defending his character. I have always thought he was a consummate professional in how he handled the media and his apparent attitude with the team.

I thought I clarified my post earlier about how much I disliked Murph and Dunleavy by throwing in that I thought they were probably great guys. I think the same thing of Jim as well. I would be happy to buy the man a pint at the local pub. I envision him as a stand up fellow. His coaching philosophy is horrible though. And that is what we are talking about here, how these guys effect the Pacers. Not how awesome they are to hang out with.