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KnicksRGarbage
01-31-2010, 10:51 PM
Looking for a "Danny Granger! 2008 All Star, future of Indianapolis. Leader of the team!!"

So.. What's the deal with Danny.
I understand this team is worse than 2008 Detroit Lions, I really do. I also understand he had the torn plantar fascia as well. But come on...

Tonight Danny had eight points and went 3-13 FG and 1-5 3pt. 2 reb. 3 asst. 4 fouls. and 2 turnovers in 30 minutes.
Dahntay Jones had 8 points in 12 minutes. Danny was tied (Granger, Jones, AJ) for the lowest point total on the team tonight with 8. Hell, even AJ Price had one more board than Danny tonight, along with same amount of steals (1) and 0 turnovers all in 18 min.

Last game against Cleveland he went 6-23 FG and 1-8 3pt. in 40 minutes finishing with 13 pts. But you better get 13 points if you chuck it up 23 times.
Again, AJ scored 10 pts and he played 20 less minutes than Danny did.

The Lakers game.. If you take away FT's (5) Danny would have had 9 points going 4-8 FG and 1-3 3pt in 30 min. Not a terrible game but I'd expect more for our 9 mil we're paying him this year. Not to mention the 14 million in 2013. I mean Luther Head played 15 minutes and scored 9 points making $884,000.

This is a recent game overview but we've all seen it this year. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Granger fan. It just concerns me a bit that there is absolutely no passion or fire from Danny this season. I saw it the very first game of the year. Something was wrong with our beloved Danny. Where's the guy I saw bust his teeth out to fight Paul Pierce for a loose ball??
So I ask you, what's eating Granger Danger?

jhondog28
01-31-2010, 10:53 PM
Looking for a "Danny Granger! 2008 All Star, future of Indianapolis. Leader of the team!!"

So.. What's the deal with Danny.
I understand this team is worse than 2008 Detroit Lions, I really do. I also understand he had the torn plantar fascia as well. But come on...

Tonight Danny had eight points and went 3-13 FG and 1-5 3pt. 2 reb. 3 asst. 4 fouls. and 2 turnovers in 30 minutes.
Dahntay Jones had 8 points in 12 minutes. Danny was tied (Granger, Jones, AJ) for the lowest point total on the team tonight with 8. Hell, even AJ Price had one more board than Danny tonight, along with same amount of steals (1) and 0 turnovers all in 18 min.

Last game against Cleveland he went 6-23 FG and 1-8 3pt. in 40 minutes finishing with 13 pts. But you better get 13 points if you chuck it up 23 times.
Again, AJ scored 10 pts and he played 20 less minutes than Danny did.

The Lakers game.. If you take away FT's (5) Danny would have had 9 points going 4-8 FG and 1-3 3pt in 30 min. Not a terrible game but I'd expect more for our 9 mil we're paying him this year. Not to mention the 14 million in 2013. I mean Luther Head played 15 minutes and scored 9 points making $884,000.

This is a recent game overview but we've all seen it this year. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Granger fan. It just concerns me a bit that there is absolutely no passion or fire from Danny this season. I saw it the very first game of the year. Something was wrong with our beloved Danny. Where's the guy I saw bust his teeth out to fight Paul Pierce for a loose ball??
So I ask you, what's eating Granger Danger?

In all honesty he is hurt and has lost confidence. He also needs someone that will take the focus off of him. Two years ago Dunleavy did that and last year JJ helped out a lot. Just my opinon

Hicks
01-31-2010, 10:55 PM
I think he's "given up" on either the year, the team, the coach, or a combination.

I'd respect him more if that's not true, but I can also understand.

KnicksRGarbage
01-31-2010, 11:12 PM
I agree JJ helped. I liked JJ too.
I could also agree with you as well Hicks. Maybe he's worried he's gonna be "Archie Manning-ed."
For clarification to some, that's be a star and be constantly surrounded by garbage and the team bringing in no one to benefit you..

All I can do is trust Larry knows what he's doing and we'll come out of the storm in 3-5 years much better than we anticipated :pray:

cdash
01-31-2010, 11:16 PM
Honestly, I subscribe to the theory that Granger is very displeased with Obie and is taking crap shots to spite his system. I don't think he's lost confidence in himself, but I do think he's lost confidence in Obie.

tsm612
01-31-2010, 11:26 PM
I agree with Hicks. It's a throwaway season and he knows it, and the quote in Hicks' signature really shows that. And from Danny's Tweet the same day:


"We lost tonight but my Lobos beat #10 BYU!!! Everyones a Lobo!!! If u don't know what that means then don't worry about it:)"

He showed more joy for his "Lobos" victory than he showed disappointment that his own team lost yet another game. I just don't think he cares anymore this year. If that's the case, then I don't think that it says very much about his leadership.

Hicks
01-31-2010, 11:57 PM
I'm convinced Danny isn't a leader. I think Jack was our leader last year, actually.

Trophy
02-01-2010, 12:48 AM
I'm convinced Danny isn't a leader. I think Jack was our leader last year, actually.

If Danny was Batman last season, I would consider his Robin to be Jarrett Jack.

I knew once we lost Jack, this season was going to go downhill. He filled our PG troubles. A Jack/Price rotation would've been nearly perfect for this team.

D-BONE
02-01-2010, 06:25 AM
I'm convinced Danny isn't a leader. I think Jack was our leader last year, actually.

This gets more painfully obvious with each passing unininspired performance.

Actually, if you take performance, leadership, and PG quaterbacking skills all into account, JJ may well have been our best player last year.

I was really bummed that we lost him, but was able to rationalize it due to the financials. The way things have played out, it's only more depressing now. Probably the most moxie we'd seen around here since Jackson/Reggie.

chrisjacobs7
02-01-2010, 08:09 AM
I don't understand why Granger rushed back from his injury so quick... this season is going no where so take him out and let the heel fully heal. Whether it's the injury, JOB's system, lack of motivation, or all of the above... he isn't doing much to help the team right now.

ksuttonjr76
02-01-2010, 08:58 AM
I don't understand why Granger rushed back from his injury so quick... this season is going no where so take him out and let the heel fully heal. Whether it's the injury, JOB's system, lack of motivation, or all of the above... he isn't doing much to help the team right now.

With all due respect, it's not the injury. When I watch him, there's nothing about his game that indicts the injury is still bothering him. I REALLY believe that he just don't give a d*mn anymore.

McKeyFan
02-01-2010, 09:02 AM
This gets more painfully obvious with each passing unininspired performance.

Actually, if you take performance, leadership, and PG quaterbacking skills all into account, JJ may well have been our best player last year.

I was really bummed that we lost him, but was able to rationalize it due to the financials. The way things have played out, it's only more depressing now. Probably the most moxie we'd seen around here since Jackson/Reggie.

We couldn't afford to keep Jack because we needed to bring in some defensive players that we wouldn't play.

McKeyFan
02-01-2010, 09:04 AM
Hopefully, Danny's injury is of the type that it won't affect him coming back when he did.

Danny's not the only enigma out there. Dunleavy is strange as heck. I've heard the arguments that a bad leg can affect how you pass the ball right to the opponent two or three times a game, but I'm not buying them.

Something's in Dunleavy's head, and he's not the same player he was.

Zelmo Beatty
02-01-2010, 09:08 AM
Perhaps Danny has forgotten that he was just awarded a nice, new
contract about 18 months ago. I doubt that 'not giving a damn'
anymore (wether due to disatisfaction with O'B, all the losing or
whatever) is what Bird and crew had in mind when they paid him.

Wether he likes it or not, Danny's job is to 'be the leader' and set
an example for the younger guys. And if true, the stuff about him
being dissappointed at not being surrounded with enough talent,
etc. is pure bs.

Danny Granger hasn't done anything in the NBA signifigant enough
to warrant that kind of attitude. Putting up stats and/or making
an All-Star game on a team that sucks is utterly meaningless.

The Pacers don't owe him anything.

KnicksRGarbage
02-01-2010, 09:23 AM
I know!
Perhaps there's a basketball game featuring The Looney Toons and The Monstars, and they've just all had their talent taken away by the little guys?!?

ksuttonjr76
02-01-2010, 09:25 AM
Perhaps Danny has forgotten that he was just awarded a nice, new
contract about 18 months ago. I doubt that 'not giving a damn'
anymore (wether due to disatisfaction with O'B, all the losing or
whatever) is what Bird and crew had in mind when they paid him.

Wether he likes it or not, Danny's job is to 'be the leader' and set
an example for the younger guys. And if true, the stuff about him
being dissappointed at not being surrounded with enough talent,
etc. is pure bs.

Danny Granger hasn't done anything in the NBA signifigant enough
to warrant that kind of attitude. Putting up stats and/or making
an All-Star game on a team that sucks is utterly meaningless.

The Pacers don't owe him anything.

They owe him a d*mn coach that can coach.

chrisjacobs7
02-01-2010, 09:51 AM
With all due respect, it's not the injury. When I watch him, there's nothing about his game that indicts the injury is still bothering him. I REALLY believe that he just don't give a d*mn anymore.

Well that really sucks... I'd much rather it be the injury that's bothering him. I really hope we can get a new coach in after this season and that will help motivate Granger to return to how he was playing last year.

jhondog28
02-01-2010, 09:51 AM
With all due respect I will not question a player's heart until they say something that proves to me that they dont care. Granger is still trying to win. If you think his injury is not a factor in his play you must be crazy. It is obvious he has lost a quick first step and he used to get fouled a lot more than he did because his strength is driving to the basket. When you have the foot issue that he has the first thing it takes away is the ability to drive. I cannot believe we are the fan base who think the team is not even trying. I think the team is trying i just think we are not that talented, have below average coaching and injuries AGAIN have killed us.

sportfireman
02-01-2010, 09:52 AM
I've said it for the longest Danny's not a leader type he's Pippen..... he's a Pippen type player, his whole mentality, style, the way he carries himself. And Pippen was not a leader, Danny might be Batman but we need a Superman for this team. Superman runs the Justice League not Batman. So now we need to find Superman...........oh and I think AJ will take some of the pressure off Danny once he gets the reigns to this team. AJ is a playmaker who can create for himself as well and shoot the 3.



*EDIT* think about it Danny's nickname is Batman. Batman's a loner, he'll team up if you need him but he'd prefer to be on his own.

DaveP63
02-01-2010, 10:27 AM
He's not a leader. He's not a lead by example guy. He's not a vocal leader. He's not a person who holds others accountable. He's not a team first guy. He doesn't facilitate for the betterment of the team. He's not the guy to make everyone around him better. What he is, is a square peg pounded into a round hole. He's had the "team leader" mantle thrust on his shoulders and it doesn't fit. I don't know that there is a guy that will be allowed to be the leader on this team. I don't think the new hires or the rookies have enough clout the fill the void. Jack did it last year. That's why they need, and have needed since Reggie retired, a strong veteran presence in the locker room...My .02...

Hicks
02-01-2010, 10:31 AM
Mike Wells has said earlier in the year that if Roy wasn't a 2nd year player, he'd be our leader. I think Roy will grow into that role as he gains the respect of a veteran player in the coming years.

Kid Minneapolis
02-01-2010, 10:40 AM
I'm not really in the "he doesn't care; no fire" camp with Danny. I tend to lean more towards the "he's not 100% physically and is covering it up and limping out there trying to do something, but he's just not 100%" camp.

BigRik
02-01-2010, 01:34 PM
Honestly, I subscribe to the theory that Granger is very displeased with Obie and is taking crap shots to spite his system. I don't think he's lost confidence in himself, but I do think he's lost confidence in Obie.

I agree with this, except that he is not taking crap shots to spite the system. Taking crap shots is the system. I see nothing wrong with pushing the ball up the court, it may even lead to easy fast break points. But if those easy points aren't there don't just chuck a three. Do something that has a good chance of putting points on the board. I'm no coach, but a good post player, does wonders for this by either getting a high percentage shot, drawing a foul, or drawing a double team. Once the initial break isn't there, slow it down, work it inside out, force the other team to actually play defense. The longer they play defense the less time we have to play defense. If I can figure this stuff out, the players, i.e. Danny, can too, but if they want to play, they have to play the JOB way. That is where the frustration comes into play. Playing the JOB way, we have to be shooting the lights out to win. As simple as that.

graphic-er
02-01-2010, 04:42 PM
He doesn't facilitate for the betterment of the team. He's not the guy to make everyone around him better. What he is, is a square peg pounded into a round hole. He's had the "team leader" mantle thrust on his shoulders and it doesn't fit. I don't know that there is a guy that will be allowed to be the leader on this team. I don't think the new hires or the rookies have enough clout the fill the void. Jack did it last year. That's why they need, and have needed since Reggie retired, a strong veteran presence in the locker room...My .02...

Complete BS! He makes a ton of passes to wide open shooters off of the dribble drive and has done so since returning from the jury in December. Its the talent around the guy who can't hit an open jumper. He'd average 5 assists per game if his teammates could hit an open shot.

I will grant that he takes some ill advised bad shots, but every star player in this league does that, the real crux is that he isn't getting to the foul line like every other star in the league to make up for the bad shots.

Also he does take a ton of early three's, part of it is bad decision, part of it is bad coaches system, and 3rd part is teammates who can't finish around the basket in transition.

d_c
02-01-2010, 04:55 PM
I remember it wasn't too long ago that people said they wouldn't trade Granger for Carmelo, or how Granger was easily comparable to a guy like Paul Pierce.

I hope people now see how good guys like that really are. Being a true star player in the NBA is as much a test of time as much as anything else, and guys like those two have been bringing it year after year from the very day they entered the league.

It's tough being that good for that long a time. When you get to that level, you're facing the other team's best defensive player, who relishes trying to stop you. You face double and triple teams. You're expected to play the big minutes and take all the big shots. You're expected to not miss games. You now face the expectations from the fans and media and you face it every night.

Granger is now in that situation where he's trying to at least maintain the level that he achieved last year, and it's tough. He's no longer the surprise guy who just burst onto the scene last year and became an all-star.

Now he's facing the burdens that perennial all-star players have face every single season. And it's not so easy. These guys reach a certain point where so much is expected from them that they get criticized for not being even better.

ksuttonjr76
02-01-2010, 05:20 PM
I remember it wasn't too long ago that people said they wouldn't trade Granger for Carmelo, or how Granger was easily comparable to a guy like Paul Pierce.

I hope people now see how good guys like that really are. Being a true star player in the NBA is as much a test of time as much as anything else, and guys like those two have been bringing it year after year from the very day they entered the league.

It's tough being that good for that long a time. When you get to that level, you're facing the other team's best defensive player, who relishes trying to stop you. You face double and triple teams. You're expected to play the big minutes and take all the big shots. You're expected to not miss games. You now face the expectations from the fans and media and you face it every night.

Granger is now in that situation where he's trying to at least maintain the level that he achieved last year, and it's tough. He's no longer the surprise guy who just burst onto the scene last year and became an all-star.

Now he's facing the burdens that perennial all-star players have face every single season. And it's not so easy. These guys reach a certain point where so much is expected from them that they get criticized for not being even better.

I would accept this explaination, but the defense has been more focus on Hibbert and Rush than Granger. Granger is basically a non-factor in defensive planning, and should be flourishing.

As for the injury, I haven't read anything that says the injury IS affecting him. I can understand some dropoff in performance, but this is ridiculus. I watched most of the games, and Granger is just going through the motions. The Pistons game was like the only game that I saw where he showed any real emotions on the court.

jhondog28
02-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Is Granger overvalued when the team is winning...yes....is Granger undervalued when the team is losing...yes. Granger is a good player that will not be a superstar. I believe he is hurt and is playing hurt. I do not believe he is out there purposfully playing bad because he does not like the coach. The talent sucks around him including the coach, but he is not throwing games away. I honestly do nto see the same things most of you guys are when you say he is not trying. To me he is playing tentative which does not mean he is not trying...it means he is playing afraid which has always been his downfall. If you look at the games he goes for big numbers he rides his emotion.

PacerDude
02-01-2010, 05:44 PM
Mike Wells has said earlier in the year that if Roy wasn't a 2nd year player, he'd be our leader. I think Roy will grow into that role as he gains the respect of a veteran player in the coming years.
Does JOB have a freakin' clue on this ??

Can one be a leader if one doesn't play consistently ??

BillS
02-01-2010, 07:37 PM
Does JOB have a freakin' clue on this ??

Can one be a leader if one doesn't play consistently ??

Absolutely. We've had more than one player lead from the bench.

This doesn't have anything to do with JOB, it has to do with sheer number of years in the league. A guy has to have years in the league to have teammates looking to him for direction.

DaveP63
02-01-2010, 08:06 PM
Complete BS! He makes a ton of passes to wide open shooters off of the dribble drive and has done so since returning from the jury in December. Its the talent around the guy who can't hit an open jumper. He'd average 5 assists per game if his teammates could hit an open shot.

When he first came back, perhaps. Now? Not so much. He sure hasn't done much dribble driving lately, has he?


I will grant that he takes some ill advised bad shots, but every star player in this league does that, the real crux is that he isn't getting to the foul line like every other star in the league to make up for the bad shots.

He isn't getting to the line because he's content chucking it and is not driving to the basket.


Also he does take a ton of early three's, part of it is bad decision, part of it is bad coaches system, and 3rd part is teammates who can't finish around the basket in transition.

:brilliant
I couldn't agree with you more!

PacerDude
02-01-2010, 08:34 PM
Absolutely. We've had more than one player lead from the bench.On a decent team ?? Cheerleaders are cheap. A true leader develops on the court.

the jaddler
02-01-2010, 08:45 PM
yeah deffintly missing JJ........i bet danny is killing 2 birds with one stone.....not caring and spiting JOB......although i hate to see danny hurt his own numbers....

Naptown_Seth
02-01-2010, 08:56 PM
We couldn't afford to keep Jack because we needed to bring in some defensive players that we wouldn't play.
DJones $2.5m
Solo $1.6m
Watson $2.8m
Total $6.9m

Afflalo $1m
J Jack $5m
Total $6m

This isn't hindsight. TBird called the Afflalo option before he ended up in Denver. Whatever good Bird got done 2 years ago with JO for Roy, TJ and Rasho expiring and #11 for Rush, J Jack and McBob he basically crapped away this year when he let Jack go, chased Dahntay when the cheaper Afflalo was even who DJ's old team wanted more, and ended up spending more to make the team weaker.

And if you are where I am looking at how I see the Blair/Tyler thing looking in about 3 years, this summer looks like a front office train wreck.

Oh wait, did I mention extending the coach. I mean it's like Dumars is running the Pacers at this point.

Naptown_Seth
02-01-2010, 09:04 PM
Absolutely. We've had more than one player lead from the bench.

This doesn't have anything to do with JOB, it has to do with sheer number of years in the league. A guy has to have years in the league to have teammates looking to him for direction.
Yep. I remember how the Lakers tuned out Magic and the Celts ignored Bird. Duncan got no respect from teammates, Lebron couldn't get anyone to listen....

Yes, they are the best of the best, but they aren't the only ones and in those cases we are talking day 1 on the team. Danny is NOT A ROOKIE. He's an all-star, he's been here long enough and had enough success that if it was in his nature to be a leader he would be.

I mean you say the above quote in a thread where we are talking about how Jack WAS THE LEADER and how long was he with the team? Oh yeah, his first year. But he was a vet. He'd been playing for 3 years before that season.....um, just as long as Granger had.

So Jack plays 3 years, Danny plays 3 years. In year 4 both are on the Pacers. Jack is the bench PG, Danny is the all-star. Jack is new to the team, Danny has been here longer than everyone but Foster. Jack becomes the leader.

Explain how your "it takes years" fits into explaining these facts away. It doesn't take years, it takes vision, will, leadership skills, and a coach that reinforces your direction and actions. JOB isn't making Danny a poor leader, but he isn't turning him into one either. There's no player development going on here.


Personally I think Roy is slipping closer to being the team leader of the future. He's got the demeanor for it, but obviously lacks coaching support completely. I think DJones, Rush and Price would all fully support and follow Roy at the very least.

d_c
02-01-2010, 09:06 PM
He isn't getting to the line because he's content chucking it and is not driving to the basket.

You know, a strange thing happens as guys play more and more in the league.

They find out that driving to the basket all the time is physically more demanding and results in getting injured and beat up a lot more. Granger isn't alone in this.

That's why guys like Dirk, Pierce and Carmelo who get hacked as much as they do to get to the line are, in many ways, underappreciated. It's tough to do that year after year and still remain durable.

vnzla81
02-01-2010, 09:14 PM
You know, a strange thing happens as guys play more and more in the league.

They find out that driving to the basket all the time is physically more demanding and results in getting injured and beat up a lot more. Granger isn't alone in this.

That's why guys like Dirk, Pierce and Carmelo who get hacked as much as they do to get to the line are, in many ways, underappreciated. It's tough to do that year after year and still remain durable.

the other thing is that Granger is not that kind of guy, he is closer to Rashard Lewis than Wade or Pierce and we need to accept that.

Sookie
02-01-2010, 09:15 PM
Yep. I remember how the Lakers tuned out Magic and the Celts ignored Bird. Duncan got no respect from teammates, Lebron couldn't get anyone to listen....

Yes, they are the best of the best, but they aren't the only ones and in those cases we are talking day 1 on the team. Danny is NOT A ROOKIE. He's an all-star, he's been here long enough and had enough success that if it was in his nature to be a leader he would be.

I mean you say the above quote in a thread where we are talking about how Jack WAS THE LEADER and how long was he with the team? Oh yeah, his first year. But he was a vet. He'd been playing for 3 years before that season.....um, just as long as Granger had.

So Jack plays 3 years, Danny plays 3 years. In year 4 both are on the Pacers. Jack is the bench PG, Danny is the all-star. Jack is new to the team, Danny has been here longer than everyone but Foster. Jack becomes the leader.

Explain how your "it takes years" fits into explaining these facts away. It doesn't take years, it takes vision, will, leadership skills, and a coach that reinforces your direction and actions. JOB isn't making Danny a poor leader, but he isn't turning him into one either. There's no player development going on here.


Personally I think Roy is slipping closer to being the team leader of the future. He's got the demeanor for it, but obviously lacks coaching support completely. I think DJones, Rush and Price would all fully support and follow Roy at the very least.

By "years" I think he meant Roy won't get the nod as leader because he's a second year player.

Honestly, I think DJones is the closet thing to a leader this team has had. In the future, I think Roy and Price have leadership qualities. Or at least did in college. Problem with Roy is you like your leader to come from a guard spot in most cases. Problem with A.J. is we don't really know how he's going to turn out. Which is probably why it takes being a veteran to be a leader in most cases anyway.

gummy
02-01-2010, 10:34 PM
As for the injury, I haven't read anything that says the injury IS affecting him.

Actually, a week or so after Danny came back he did a pre-game interview on TV with Stacy Paetz and he told her he was playing through the pain and not practicing. He also said that anytime he shifts his weight toward his heel it's hard for him to get off the ground properly (this one is on Stacy's Twitter, Jan 11 - http://twitter.com/stacypaetz). This kind of injury is not likely to get a ton better if you come back before it's healed and start grinding on it again.

Now he may be back in practice now, I don't know - maybe someone should ask JOB during his next show. And perhaps he is pain free now or maybe you are right and his performance is more attitude than injury...I don't know.

I'm just putting it out there that Danny was still in pain when he came back and it is possible that pain/injury is playing a significant role in keeping him from driving to the basket (among other things).

d_c
02-02-2010, 12:26 AM
the other thing is that Granger is not that kind of guy, he is closer to Rashard Lewis than Wade or Pierce and we need to accept that.

And that, too. Some people did call correctly that his game probably most resembled Lewis, with better qualities in some areas.

But I'm not sure where those Pierce comparisons came from. He's got a completely different style of play.

spazzxb
02-02-2010, 11:57 AM
Peirce has Garnett and Allen. Carmelo has Chauncy. Not arguing just saying you should have used a better example.
I remember it wasn't too long ago that people said they wouldn't trade Granger for Carmelo, or how Granger was easily comparable to a guy like Paul Pierce.

I hope people now see how good guys like that really are. Being a true star player in the NBA is as much a test of time as much as anything else, and guys like those two have been bringing it year after year from the very day they entered the league.

It's tough being that good for that long a time. When you get to that level, you're facing the other team's best defensive player, who relishes trying to stop you. You face double and triple teams. You're expected to play the big minutes and take all the big shots. You're expected to not miss games. You now face the expectations from the fans and media and you face it every night.

Granger is now in that situation where he's trying to at least maintain the level that he achieved last year, and it's tough. He's no longer the surprise guy who just burst onto the scene last year and became an all-star.

Now he's facing the burdens that perennial all-star players have face every single season. And it's not so easy. These guys reach a certain point where so much is expected from them that they get criticized for not being even better.

Sookie
02-02-2010, 12:11 PM
Peirce has Garnett and Allen. Carmelo has Chauncy. Not arguing just saying you should have used a better example.

And to be fair, the Celtics stunk just like the Pacers do before Garnett and Allen.

KnicksRGarbage
02-02-2010, 01:05 PM
And to be fair, the Celtics stunk just like the Pacers do before Garnett and Allen.

I wonder who the coach was?
Say between 2002-2004

sportfireman
02-02-2010, 01:19 PM
I wonder who the coach was?
Say between 2002-2004

Yep Ole' Flim himself

d_c
02-02-2010, 02:24 PM
Peirce has Garnett and Allen. Carmelo has Chauncy. Not arguing just saying you should have used a better example.

Ever since Carmelo entered the league, the Nuggets have gone from a team that dwelled around the 10th seed every season to a team that has made the playoffs every single season. This includes several seasons before Billups arrived. The same can't be said of Granger and the Pacers.

Paul Pierce is an 8 time NBA all-star. He dragged Antoine Walker and bunch of scrubs to the ECFs. Oh, and he did with Jim O'brien as coach.

And according to some here, Jim O'brien doesn't know how to coach. So basically Paul Pierce dragged a team comprised of Walker, scrubs and no coach to the ECFs. Granger has yet to do anything remotely close to that.

Hicks
02-02-2010, 02:53 PM
So why did they suck in 2007?

d_c
02-02-2010, 03:07 PM
So why did they suck in 2007?

The Celtics? Team was injured and they pretty much tanked. Players on the team admitted as much. They did the right thing.

BillS
02-02-2010, 05:41 PM
Yep. I remember how the Lakers tuned out Magic and the Celts ignored Bird. Duncan got no respect from teammates, Lebron couldn't get anyone to listen....

Yes, they are the best of the best, but they aren't the only ones and in those cases we are talking day 1 on the team. Danny is NOT A ROOKIE. He's an all-star, he's been here long enough and had enough success that if it was in his nature to be a leader he would be.

I mean you say the above quote in a thread where we are talking about how Jack WAS THE LEADER and how long was he with the team? Oh yeah, his first year. But he was a vet. He'd been playing for 3 years before that season.....um, just as long as Granger had.

So Jack plays 3 years, Danny plays 3 years. In year 4 both are on the Pacers. Jack is the bench PG, Danny is the all-star. Jack is new to the team, Danny has been here longer than everyone but Foster. Jack becomes the leader.

Explain how your "it takes years" fits into explaining these facts away. It doesn't take years, it takes vision, will, leadership skills, and a coach that reinforces your direction and actions. JOB isn't making Danny a poor leader, but he isn't turning him into one either. There's no player development going on here.


Personally I think Roy is slipping closer to being the team leader of the future. He's got the demeanor for it, but obviously lacks coaching support completely. I think DJones, Rush and Price would all fully support and follow Roy at the very least.

Do you just knee jerk post and find something to argue with me about?

I was countering the guy who said JOB was ruining Hibbert as a leader because he wasn't playing enough. I said nothing about Danny.

I wasn't saying NOBODY could lead in their first year, I was saying that leaders off the bench develop as they get respect.

Unless, of course, you are saying Roy is the equivalent of Bird, Magic, LeBron, et al. In which case you are nuts.

BillS
02-02-2010, 05:43 PM
On a decent team ?? Cheerleaders are cheap. A true leader develops on the court.

What kind of leader are you talking about? The guy who is the leading scorer or playmaker, who leads by example? Probably. The guy who leads in the locker room doesn't have to be getting huge minutes, even on a contending team.

ksuttonjr76
02-02-2010, 05:53 PM
Actually, a week or so after Danny came back he did a pre-game interview on TV with Stacy Paetz and he told her he was playing through the pain and not practicing. He also said that anytime he shifts his weight toward his heel it's hard for him to get off the ground properly (this one is on Stacy's Twitter, Jan 11 - http://twitter.com/stacypaetz). This kind of injury is not likely to get a ton better if you come back before it's healed and start grinding on it again.

Now he may be back in practice now, I don't know - maybe someone should ask JOB during his next show. And perhaps he is pain free now or maybe you are right and his performance is more attitude than injury...I don't know.

I'm just putting it out there that Danny was still in pain when he came back and it is possible that pain/injury is playing a significant role in keeping him from driving to the basket (among other things).

Okay. That's my bad. I didn't know that there was an official statement out there. Thanks.

PacerDude
02-02-2010, 07:15 PM
What kind of leader are you talking about?

A guy who hustles, dives for balls, plays his butt off and then demands the same from the other players. Granger can't demand anything because he's not a shining example of any of the above. Don't talk about the front teeth ......... that was quite a while ago. Pre-contract.

KnicksRGarbage
02-02-2010, 08:50 PM
None of this aggression is directed towards you in anyway at all PacerDude.
I hate all this pre-contract garb. I understand you'll "take a night off" here and there. You're busting your butt for 82 games for however many years you play. And the playoffs, unless you play in Indiana. Anyway..
Like I said, this crap about these players only busting their:censored: when they want some fat guaranteed cash in their pockets on a new contract angers me. It angers me due to the fact that they play with passion and fire, whether it's real or greed driven is irrelevant in this case, they do it for a very short period of time to make some serious bank. Then, they slack or they don't put forth as much effort as before because ":censored: it, I have my new fat contract. Take it easy man, don't beat yourself up. We'll give 85-90 percent, 100% if it's crunch time."
Again, I understand you cant bust your butt all the time every game. So please, don't come at me with that argument. I think you get what I'm saying.
You then have fans like a lot of us on The Digest who continue to spend our hard earned money on a terrible team who has been quite a laughing stock for about 915,987 years it seems. But just because you have a new fat deal and your team blows, you just take it easy and don't put forth the effort and determination that your team PAID you to do! You don't do the things the fans expect you to do. I basically take it as a huge :censored: you as a fan. Because essentially, in one way or another, WE pay for those players salaries.
I just feel that it's unfair to put forth no effort and play lazy because you've taken care of #1, yourself. Then leave all of the others out to dry. It's a sad thing when fans begin to think that no one gives a damn about them except those players who are keeping those benches nice and warm so "Mr. Contract" can take a breather from his half-:censored: performance.

This isn't all about Granger. It applies to all players in all sports. It's also not the way I feel about Danny. I still like Danny, this is just me expounding throughout my post.
Grr :mad:

graphic-er
02-02-2010, 10:35 PM
A guy who hustles, dives for balls, plays his butt off and then demands the same from the other players. Granger can't demand anything because he's not a shining example of any of the above. Don't talk about the front teeth ......... that was quite a while ago. Pre-contract.

Danny busted his teeth post contract. Infact it was the day after he signed that 60mil deal. I agree that he isn't commanding the presence that leader should though.

Jon Theodore
02-02-2010, 10:57 PM
Last season Granger is the best Granger we will ever see. This year Granger is a much more realistic version of what can realistically be expected of him. I have no explanation for how ridiculous last season was for Danny, but I seriously don't see him ever playing at that level consistently again.

To me Danny is starting to remind me of Jermaine O'neal way too much. Great stats, fan favorite...not quite good enough to be the man.....thinks he is better than he really is...etc.

AKA please prove me wrong Danny.

Sookie
02-02-2010, 11:01 PM
Last season Granger is the best Granger we will ever see. This year Granger is a much more realistic version of what can realistically be expected of him. I have no explanation for how ridiculous last season was for Danny, but I seriously don't see him ever playing at that level consistently again.

To me Danny is starting to remind me of Jermaine O'neal way too much. Great stats, fan favorite...not quite good enough to be the man.....thinks he is better than he really is...etc.

AKA please prove me wrong Danny.

He's been injured all season.

And there's an adjustment he needs to make as well. This is his first season being an all star. Defenses are keying on him, and he's being treated as such. He's got to adjust. And he's been injured the entire season.

So I don't know if these assesments of him are fair.

BillS
02-02-2010, 11:01 PM
A guy who hustles, dives for balls, plays his butt off and then demands the same from the other players. Granger can't demand anything because he's not a shining example of any of the above. Don't talk about the front teeth ......... that was quite a while ago. Pre-contract.

Demands how? By threatening not to play hard if you don't? Not likely...

If you only lead by example you are the kind of leader Reggie was. Fine, but that's not a complete leader. A leader is someone who can get others to go where the team needs them to go. Sometimes you do that by putting the team on your shoulders and carrying them. Sometimes you do that with a nudge here and a word there, a technique pointed out in practice or a prop during pre-game prep.

We see the on-the-court ones. We don't see the locker room ones, which are often just as valuable if not more valuable.

I put forth Sam Mitchell, who was considered to be a MAJOR part of the reason for the advancement in 93-94 and 94-95, but was not by any means a monster on the floor.

Naptown_Seth
02-03-2010, 12:27 AM
Do you just knee jerk post and find something to argue with me about?

I was countering the guy who said JOB was ruining Hibbert as a leader because he wasn't playing enough. I said nothing about Danny.

I wasn't saying NOBODY could lead in their first year, I was saying that leaders off the bench develop as they get respect.

Unless, of course, you are saying Roy is the equivalent of Bird, Magic, LeBron, et al. In which case you are nuts.
Well while I did use the Danny part of this instead of Roy, I actually think my main point was still valid and applicable because your point wasn't that some people could. You said this...

This doesn't have anything to do with JOB, it has to do with sheer number of years in the league. A guy has to have years in the league to have teammates looking to him for direction.
HAS TO. Not sometimes. That's an absolute. Your making a general point that people must have NBA service time in for them to be seen as team leaders. So actually my response fits pretty well.

Also I think Roy is headed toward being the next team leader. He's smart, runs very emotional without losing control, he's demanding of himself, and he's good enough to impact games. Not only that but he impacts games the most when his teammates feed off of him.

WetBob
02-03-2010, 08:27 AM
Also I think Roy is headed toward being the next team leader. He's smart, runs very emotional without losing control, he's demanding of himself, and he's good enough to impact games. Not only that but he impacts games the most when his teammates feed off of him.

Everything I've heard specifically about Roy has been that he is something of an "emotional roller coaster." Really high ups, and really low downs. Not sure that's the best personality type to be a team's true leader, but that's still to be seen.

Trophy
02-03-2010, 05:45 PM
http://http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2010/02/paging_mr_grang.html

(Mike Wells)

THE `HOUSE - It didn't take long for people comment on email or on Twitter that the Pacers need to get rid of Jim O'Brien and make assistant coach Lester Conner the new coach after Conner led the Pacers to 15-point victory over the Raptors.

It's only one game.

Sorry to burst some of your bubbles, but O'Brien is expected to be back kneeling on one knee coaching the Pacers in Friday's game against Detroit.

I'm not going to sit here and rave about the Pacers ending their three-game losing streak because it's only one game.

A troubling trend that's been going on for more than one game is Danny Granger's shooting.

Granger is far from the player he was last season.

It seemed like every shot Granger took last season was going in.

That's not the case this season.

Now you wonder how bad he's going to miss when he takes a shot.

Granger's 21-of-63 from the field in the past three games. It's getting to the point where teams don't mind Granger scoring 25 points because they know it's going to take him 25 shots to reach that total.

Granger's pressing so hard that he took two shots early in the shot clock after Conner told them to run the clock down in the final minute.

Granger attempted one of the shots because he wanted to try to make a 3-pointer. He missed and ended up being 0-of-5 from long distance.

He's 13-of-54 on 3-pointers in the last 10 games.

Is this just a slump or are you guys losing confidence in Granger?

vnzla81
02-03-2010, 06:07 PM
I think that we as pacers fans need to understand that Danny is not the franchise player we hope he would be, he is a good player but he is not the kind of player who is going to take this team to the playoffs or a championship by himself, I been saying this for a long time, Danny is more like Rashard Lewis than Melo,Lebron or Wade, he is the second or maybe the third best player in a championship team, for example lest say that he was playing for the Lakers, Kobe is number one, Gasol 2 and Danny3.
The only way the pacers get a Batman for our Robin(Danny) is going to be trough the draft.

gummy
02-03-2010, 06:23 PM
I imagine playing on 1 and half-ish feet for much of the season can make you look pretty bad too. Not saying that is all there is to it but it seems likely that it is a factor.

Sookie
02-03-2010, 06:38 PM
I imagine playing on 1 and half-ish feet for much of the season can make you look pretty bad too. Not saying that is all there is to it but it seems likely that it is a factor.

Exactly.

I think people are ridiculous at this stage. Danny's not healthy and hasn't been this whole year.

The way he's playing now is not "what he is or will be"

Jeez, Kobe Bryant looked like crap for a few weeks when he first got injured..he must suck too.:rolleyes:

KnicksRGarbage
02-03-2010, 06:38 PM
I think this could be merged somehow with the other Granger thread.
"Granger Party of none, Granger Granger!!"

vnzla81
02-03-2010, 06:43 PM
Exactly.

I think people are ridiculous at this stage. Danny's not healthy and hasn't been this whole year.

The way he's playing now is not "what he is or will be"

Jeez, Kobe Bryant looked like crap for a few weeks when he first got injured..he must suck too.:rolleyes:

Kobe is been hurt for two years now, two fingers in his shooting hand and his game still the same, I know that a knee or leg is not the same but you need to understand that athletes are almost never 100% healthy, good players know how to adapt when they are hurt and it seems that Danny does not know how to do that or he is maybe doing it by shooting threes like crazy but is not working.

Sookie
02-03-2010, 06:47 PM
Kobe is been hurt for two years now, two fingers in his shooting hand and his game still the same, I know that a knee or leg is not the same but you need to understand that athletes are almost never 100% healthy, good players know how to adapt when they are hurt and it seems that Danny does not know how to do that or he is maybe doing it by shooting threes like crazy but is not working.

I understand that fine. They all are in pain, but they aren't always playing on 1 1/2 a foot.

And Kobe re broke a finger recently, about a month ago...and his game suffered for a few weeks before he adjusted. I think the comment was "Kobe's hand is so mangled I'm not sure he could make a layup" He had a stretch of games where he shot..well....shot about like Granger has been.

Using this year to evaluate Granger, I think, is a little unfair.

vnzla81
02-03-2010, 06:55 PM
I understand that fine. They all are in pain, but they aren't always playing on 1 1/2 a foot.

And Kobe re broke a finger recently, about a month ago...and his game suffered for a few weeks before he adjusted. I think the comment was "Kobe's hand is so mangled I'm not sure he could make a layup" He had a stretch of games where he shot..well....shot about like Granger has been.

Using this year to evaluate Granger, I think, is a little unfair.

I understand that, my point is that when the pacers drafted Danny nobody expected him to be this good, we as fans are overreacting about his down year in production, the thing is that this is maybe the real Danny and last year was an aberration, he is what he is and he is never going to be what we are hoping for him to be, in other words a Super Star.

Roaming Gnome
02-03-2010, 07:02 PM
I think this could be merged somehow with the other Granger thread.
"Granger Party of none, Granger Granger!!"

I agree... Merged!