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View Full Version : Did anyone else think O'Brien got pretty chippy with his last caller THR?



Hicks
01-30-2010, 10:36 AM
I listened late last night to his most recent call-in show, and the last caller basically called the team out for "jacking up three's" and not attacking the basket, and I think he dropped the veil of politeness with his tone of voice as he began to respond, and then (compared to his usual demeanor, at least) got a bit hot as he defended himself/the team.

Listen for yourself. Start at 38:00 in or 7:43 left to go. Wait until it's done loading before you try to click ahead in the broadcast. The caller is "James"

http://www.1070thefan.com/pacers/obrien.aspx

Brad8888
01-30-2010, 11:55 AM
I listened late last night to his most recent call-in show, and the last caller basically called the team out for "jacking up three's" and not attacking the basket, and I think he dropped the veil of politeness with his tone of voice as he began to respond, and then (compared to his usual demeanor, at least) got a bit hot as he defended himself/the team.

Listen for yourself. Start at 38:00 in or 7:43 left to go. Wait until it's done loading before you try to click ahead in the broadcast. The caller is "James"

http://www.1070thefan.com/pacers/obrien.aspx

Not sure what O'B's point was. He definitely let the stats defend him comparing our "big" lineups to the "small". He spoke like a "true believer" in his own BS who is in denial with respect to reality. He said that shooting 28 open 3's is GOOD basketball, and that "chucking" shots over big men in the paint is bad basketball. He said it as if you can't do both and have balance. But then he also indicated that we did, in fact, drive the ball, and that the Lakers simply don't foul.

Well, they do foul, Jim, but they are fouling at a rate that is only 94% as much as the league average while playing one more game than league average, which leaves them fouling roughly 2 less times per game than an average NBA team, 19.44 vs. 21.22 per game.

Now, compared to us, at a league leading 24.13, it must seem as if the Lakers never foul, but still Jim is full of **** here, like he usually is. We also don't often drive with the intent of taking shots if the guys are following O'B's logic, which is why our drives would yield fewer fouls, Lakers or not, which is well known as well. We drive primarily to set up our 3'sand "space the floor" (cannot believe I just typed that abominable phrase), which is why TJ used to drive into traffic and stop, jump, and get hung up when his passing lanes were easily defended. Why bother fouling us with no more of a threat than we are from the arc?

With O'B as coach, we have no hope of anything other than what our threes will give us, and the entire league knows it, which makes it incredibly easy to defend us.

Like you said the other night "eff O'B"...and I believe I might start calling him this for good...FO'B.

FO'B...hmmm. Has a really nice ring to it. I really think I like that.

BlueNGold
01-30-2010, 11:57 AM
Yes, he got a little defensive but not any more than the other night after the LA game where someone questioned him re: Murphy.

The caller had a point, but I didn't have a problem with JOb's response. There is no Dale or Antonio Davis on this team. However, Hans, McBob and Solo...and Foster are all a whole lot closer than Murphy to what this team needs at the PF position.

Also, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "jacking up a layup" like JOb said. He must hate people shooting inside the 3 line...

Unclebuck
01-30-2010, 01:27 PM
I was a litle upset after hearing the long rambling unfocused question. And he lost any credibility when he said that this current team has more talent than the 90's team

I thought Jim's answer was fine, good in fact. Loved how he said our two toughest players are on the sidelines right now. jeff and tyler

I thought what was more interesting was Jim's remarks in regards on what grade he would give himelf. Pretty much taking all the blame

BRushWithDeath
01-30-2010, 03:12 PM
I was a litle upset after hearing the long rambling unfocused question. And he lost any credibility when he said that this current team has more talent than the 90's team

I thought Jim's answer was fine, good in fact. Loved how he said our two toughest players are on the sidelines right now. jeff and tyler

I thought what was more interesting was Jim's remarks in regards on what grade he would give himelf. Pretty much taking all the blame

Your continued defense of JOB is baffling to me.

Tom White
01-30-2010, 03:37 PM
Your continued defense of JOB is baffling to me.

That's how we know he isn't really Mel Daniels.

Seriously, UB has always been very supportive of the organization, be it O'Brien, Carlisle, Bird, Walsh or whomever.

OK, maybe he didn't like Bowser that much, but still.....

chrisjacobs7
01-30-2010, 03:50 PM
I can't be hearing him correctly... to 'jack up a layup is bad basketball' yet jacking up 3s isnt? :confused:

Sookie
01-30-2010, 05:12 PM
In defense of O'brien, I think most people would have snapped.

The Troy/Roy lineup is a bad one.

And I also agree with him. A wide open three pointer to a good three point shooter, is a better shot than a well guarded layup. That doesn't mean we have to take 30 threes..perhaps maybe..looking for better inside shots wouldn't be a bad idea..but in general..I'd prefer Luther Head to shoot a wide open three then attempt a layup guarded by Bynum. On the other side, I have to wonder if he thinks Granger's heavily guarded threes are bad shots or okay shots. That's the problem. And Honestly, I think Danny's the biggest culprit. I've got no problem with anyone taking an open three. Taking a pretty well guarded three..not so great..

Now, I think other parts of his show were more interesting. Particularly his emphasis on shooting. When he was talking about the growth of the younger guys, he really emphasized shooting percentages with Rush and Price. As if Price and Rush don't do anything else positive...or it doesn't matter what they do..shooting..is most important.

He's enamored with shooting. I posted a while ago I think he's trying to run a form of Paul Ball..and is just doing it wrong. I still think that. I think his offensive strategy is a bit ..well..bad.

That being said..even though it took him a while. He's starting to make better changes. Adding Price to the lineup was a good thing. Not using Troy and Hibbert together, another good thing. Heck..we saw McRoberts last night *bad explanation on that one, in the interview, btw..really bad..*

I think the combination of players he uses together, when he chooses to sub ect..is..not that good. But there's been improvements in his coaching in January.

Brad8888
01-30-2010, 05:30 PM
Heck..we saw McRoberts last night *bad explanation on that one, in the interview, btw..really bad..*

I only listened to the end that Hicks posted about. What was FO'B's bad explanation about McRoberts in the interview?

It took forever for me to download, and I don't want to go through that again if I can help it.

Was it something along the lines of "Well, he can't hit threes any better than we were as a team last night so I figured he couldn't hurt us." or something to that effect?

Sookie
01-30-2010, 05:34 PM
I only listened to the end that Hicks posted about. What was FO'B's bad explanation about McRoberts in the interview?

It took forever for me to download, and I don't want to go through that again if I can help it.

Was it something along the lines of "Well, he can't hit threes any better than we were as a team last night so I figured he couldn't hurt us." or something to that effect?

"If I thought he would help what we were doing, I would play him."

Honestly, like he could have done worse...

Brad8888
01-30-2010, 06:37 PM
"If I thought he would help what we were doing, I would play him."

Honestly, like he could have done worse...

I guess what he said there IS true...what good does it do to play bigs if they are not either a 3 point threat who can "stretch the floor" or...

Wow, I'm stumped.

Really, that is about the only thing Josh can't do at a serviceable level for his experience in the NBA. He can pass, he has hops, he can defend the 4's due to his quickness well enough to give our other bigs some relief, and he sometimes even makes some shots that are not highlight reel worthy slams.

FO'B.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 06:49 PM
People think they know what they saw
Is he talking about himself?


If you shoot 28 open 3s, that's not bad basketball.
Really? If I shoot 28 open 3s can I play for the Pacers.


Frankly I thought James was pretty well spoken about most of our frustrations. This call represents a pretty clear case of the divide between JOB's view and the fanbase. It's not going to end well.

He did get mad and he's tired of having people rip on the 3pt thing. The problem is he can be mad all he wants and it doesn't make him right.



However, while I appreciate James being enthusiastic about Tyler being good, he's not even close to the athlete that Tony was. That's just a bit too hopeful there. Tony was a power guy and made people get out of his way.



I'd prefer Luther Head to shoot a wide open three then attempt a layup guarded by Bynum.But guys like Bynum do get into foul trouble and it's not because they chase down 3pt shots. Wade didn't win the title by hitting 3 after 3, he did it at the FT line. Fouls not only give you the same points as a 2pt make, they give you the 3pt if you make your layup. AND on top of that they slow the defense down as the fouls add up.

For example, Roy got his 5th and couldn't be as aggressive defending the post.

Reggie was a 3pt ace, but he also shot a ton of FTs. FTs aren't the only answer, but they are just as good an answer as 3pt shooting. That's the major flaw with JOB's strategy, it totally dismisses the impact of giving up FTs and fouls on the opponents, not to mention how it lets the transition offense start farther out on long rebounds and TOs out on the arc when you keep the ball out there.

There's just such a long list of benefits from pushing a defense toward their own baseline and moving the ball farther from the basket you are going to have to defend.

Lebron shot 17 FTs, he only took 4 3PAs. You think he drew those FTAs out on the arc shooting more 3s??? You think their 3P shooting won that game, or was it Shaq inside and the Cavs ability to get to the FT line.


Of course like the Lakers, the Cavs don't foul. I think they lead the league with 3 fouls per game or something. Pretty bad a** really.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 06:55 PM
I thought Jim's answer was fine, good in fact. Loved how he said our two toughest players are on the sidelines right now. jeff and tyler
Lebron's scrambled brain and busted jaw both called and said you and JOB need to get a grip. You think Tyler is going to pound back on Big Z like we saw Josh do, or Roy did for that matter.

Once again, he's big talk but yet he's refused to play Josh despite acting here like he need toughness from the bigs. Josh plants Lebron within minutes of coming in, yet he doesn't qualify as either a tough or physical big.

Seriously Jim, STFU already. The next time I hear something that matches what is put into practice it'll be the first. I seriously avoid the call-in show at this point because I see no point in bringing on that level of confrontation. Nothing to gain from it. I'm that frustrated.

:box:

Pacersfan46
01-30-2010, 07:00 PM
Josh plants Lebron within minutes of coming in, yet he doesn't qualify as either a tough or physical big.

Hitting someone in the mouth by accident when they're going to the rim isn't tough, or physical. It's a foul.

-- Steve --

Sookie
01-30-2010, 07:05 PM
Hitting someone in the mouth by accident when they're going to the rim isn't tough, or physical. It's a foul.

-- Steve --

And one that was a long time coming.

the Lebrons were poking fun of the Pacers the entire game. And we're too soft of a team to retaliate....our little guys are our toughest guys.

I'm not advocating hurting people *I'm looking at you earl ;P* but jeez, sending someone a message..especially when they are just screwing around..not a bad idea.

McKeyFan
01-30-2010, 07:06 PM
Very interesting exchange.

Well, I want to give JOB props on this one. Not for his coaching philosophy, which I don't like, and he keeps pushing, but for being, all things being equal, fairly gracious in this exchange.

I guess you could say it was more Mark than JOB, but James was allowed to talk and talk for very long time. He basically took JOB to the woodshed. At any time, James could have been interrupted or cut off short—he talked much longer than most callers, and really didn't have a question when he was done. But he was allowed to talk.

JOB answered him based on his philosophy: if the threes go down like last year, maybe we win the game. I don't think it's a great answer, but he did try to articulate a reasoned answer.

Did he get a little testy? Slightly. But, again, all things being equal, that was quite an open and fair exchange between an NBA head coach and an average fan.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 07:11 PM
"If I thought he would help what we were doing, I would play him."

Honestly, like he could have done worse...
If I thought he would help what we were doing, I would play him.
(but he continued on)
See, we're trying to lose and right now I've got the guys dialed in pretty good. The last thing I need is some loose cannon out there pulling down rebounds, trying to block shots, and god forbid he puts in a power dunk and the crowd starts getting into it. That kinda crap doesn't help us lose. We're talking John Wall here and the Nets already have a huge lead on us. I finally got Dun and Danny into a good...err, bad place, and I can't risk another youngster messing it up. I mean Rush, Price and Roy are already making me nuts.

We get a 30 point deficit going, then I put him in and that's down to 22 just like that. I can't have that. I've been working with him in practice but he just doesn't get it. I mean it's John Wall, what's not to get. He's gotta be one of the most frustrating kids I've ever coached.


Maybe I misheard it though. ;)

Pacersfan46
01-30-2010, 07:11 PM
And one that was a long time coming.

the Lebrons were poking fun of the Pacers the entire game. And we're too soft of a team to retaliate....our little guys are our toughest guys.

I'm not advocating hurting people *I'm looking at you earl ;P* but jeez, sending someone a message..especially when they are just screwing around..not a bad idea.

You gotta read what I said, he didn't do it on purpose. It was an accident in trying to foul Lebron on his way to the rim. That isn't going to send any message or look tough, or anything like that.

I didn't get the "screwing around" part. Alas, I didn't pay full attention to the last quarter of the game either.

-- Steve --

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 07:16 PM
Hitting someone in the mouth by accident when they're going to the rim isn't tough, or physical. It's a foul.

-- Steve --
It seemed pretty physical. He sure as hell wasn't laughing after that, at least for the rest of the half. He looked pretty serious, like he'd got a message. Sure he gets all focused and dials it up, but that only gives merit to the fact that he got his attention.

Plus it was Josh that got robbed on a Lebron call when he took his charge. That's Lebron James and his massive size coming full on off the dribble. And we're going to play the petty game of "I don't like Josh so I ain't gotta admit nothing" and not acknowledge the toughness there too? Or when Big Z slammed the crap out of him about 4 times in a row before he was called for the foul rather than Z?

Yes, what a wimp. What Troy, Dun and Jones were doing was much tougher than that. Josh doesn't increase the toughness at all, my mistake.


Steve, my seat is about 10 feet from their bench. Not only was Lebron LEADING the mockery at all times, but as I said after that foul he crawled around in a daze for several minutes and then sat on the bench as the trainer worked on his mouth. Had he not had to shoot his own FTs to remain eligible to play in the game anymore (if he doesn't shoot them then he's done for the night), he would have gone to the locker room right then (there was about 2 minutes left in the half).

Later as things got going again Lebron and company laughed it up some more at every weak foul trying to stop Shaq or someone. The ONLY TIME Lebron looked remotely serious in the game was after Josh's foul. His face after that was dead-on serious like he was really ticked off.

Pacersfan46
01-30-2010, 07:25 PM
Petty game? Really? It's called a different opinion.

Personal attacks are not needed here!

-- Steve --

Unclebuck
01-31-2010, 08:37 AM
Lebron's scrambled brain and busted jaw both called and said you and JOB need to get a grip. You think Tyler is going to pound back on Big Z like we saw Josh do, or Roy did for that matter.

.

:box:

When did I say anything other than Tyler and jeff our two most physical player aren't playing right now.
Seth are you suggesting that Tyler is not our most physical player? you can't be suggesting that can you?

WetBob
01-31-2010, 12:09 PM
You gotta read what I said, he didn't do it on purpose. It was an accident in trying to foul Lebron on his way to the rim. That isn't going to send any message or look tough, or anything like that.

I didn't get the "screwing around" part. Alas, I didn't pay full attention to the last quarter of the game either.

-- Steve --

What do you mean he didn't do it on purpose? Would you have preferred he just took it easy on him so as to not hurt the King and let him get and and-1? Or even better, we know that we each only get 6 fouls a game, I can't use one here, its not worth wasting for 2 points. Because we've certainly never seen anyone do that.

They were laughing and joking and making a complete and total mockery of the Pacers about the whole game. It was like watching a high school team play their own JV team. Sure it's a real game, but they never took it seriously. After Josh fouled Lebron (and I found myself saying "Finally!!!! someone who was willing to use a foul so as to not give up an easy lay up!!!! I forgot that was even possible.) he looked pissed. It definitely got his attention. The Pacers need more of that. They can't keep always looking like a bunch of scared little sheep playing with a pack of wolves.

If Tyler and Foster are the two toughest players, McRoberts is a close 3rd, but he obviously can't help us win.

Sookie
01-31-2010, 12:33 PM
What do you mean he didn't do it on purpose? Would you have preferred he just took it easy on him so as to not hurt the King and let him get and and-1? Or even better, we know that we each only get 6 fouls a game, I can't use one here, its not worth wasting for 2 points. Because we've certainly never seen anyone do that.

They were laughing and joking and making a complete and total mockery of the Pacers about the whole game. It was like watching a high school team play their own JV team. Sure it's a real game, but they never took it seriously. After Josh fouled Lebron (and I found myself saying "Finally!!!! someone who was willing to use a foul so as to not give up an easy lay up!!!! I forgot that was even possible.) he looked pissed. It definitely got his attention. The Pacers need more of that. They can't keep always looking like a bunch of scared little sheep playing with a pack of wolves.

If Tyler and Foster are the two toughest players, McRoberts is a close 3rd, but he obviously can't help us win.

Our bigs that we play the most, are afraid to touch people. I like Hibbert, but he's afraid to touch people. (Probably because he's afraid to foul..but also because he's soft.) Heck..Murphy doesn't even catch the ball if you throw it too hard..and we want him to "send a message"

Basically..if the message isn't able to be sent by Dahntay or Earl..there won't be one sent. (Because I don't even think Lebron would have noticed if Earl or Dahntay tried to "send a message")

And yea..the Lebrons were disrespectful in that way...I guess they made their point though, they beat us without taking it seriously..but heck..if our shots were dropping, the lebrons would have looked a little silly.

Pacersfan46
01-31-2010, 03:54 PM
What do you mean he didn't do it on purpose? Would you have preferred he just took it easy on him so as to not hurt the King and let him get and and-1? Or even better, we know that we each only get 6 fouls a game, I can't use one here, its not worth wasting for 2 points. Because we've certainly never seen anyone do that.

They were laughing and joking and making a complete and total mockery of the Pacers about the whole game. It was like watching a high school team play their own JV team. Sure it's a real game, but they never took it seriously. After Josh fouled Lebron (and I found myself saying "Finally!!!! someone who was willing to use a foul so as to not give up an easy lay up!!!! I forgot that was even possible.) he looked pissed. It definitely got his attention. The Pacers need more of that. They can't keep always looking like a bunch of scared little sheep playing with a pack of wolves.

If Tyler and Foster are the two toughest players, McRoberts is a close 3rd, but he obviously can't help us win.

1 - He did it on accident because he was reaching to grab his arm and accidentally hit him in the face. That's not tough. That's an accident. If he wanted to send a message and jumped up with the purpose of knocking him on his *** that's great. That's how I imagine Dale Davis would have handled it.

If Murphy had done the same thing Josh did, I imagine nobody would have ever mentioned it here. However while I'm dogged for the "petty game" of an opinion because I "hate Josh" (:rolleyes:), the people touting his toughness are the same people who clamor for Josh to get more playing time like he's on the verge of being an All Star. Reaching for an excuse to justify it? I'd say it's a good possibility. All the while it's MY bias that's called into question. That's hilarious.

2 - Some of you forget this is .... a GAME. These guys should enjoy what they're doing and be having fun. It's a dream. I think some of you are entirely too sensitive when someone doesn't walk around with a stoic look on their face and they actually show some emotion or joy in what they're doing.

To some of you it absolutely must be that they're a jackass, or a show off. It couldn't possibly be that they're just having fun being an NBA player and living a dream that millions of us wish for growing up. Having fun and being excited isn't the same as showing someone up. People are just to sensitive and get excited too easily anymore for me.

-- Steve --

Naptown_Seth
01-31-2010, 04:46 PM
When did I say anything other than Tyler and jeff our two most physical player aren't playing right now.
Seth are you suggesting that Tyler is not our most physical player? you can't be suggesting that can you?
Sure I can.

Tyler is our most "running into other people" player. Steve wants to say that a hard foul isn't physical, then certainly just running into people isn't either.

I can hit a guy out there, they wouldn't even notice. I don't think Tyler is more physical than Josh or Dahntay, and of course Foster, and I think Roy's been more physical than credited because his lateral quickness lets people get past him.


Steve, dismissing a play as "just a foul" and not even discussing the others does seem petty to me. I've acknowledged plenty of good things Tyler has done this year and I'm always willing to point out when Josh comes up short, which he often has in stretches.

It just happens that in the CLE game he got physical with several players and they all felt his fouls.

Slap a Dale jersey on him and everyone would be praising the hard foul on Lebron as a physical play, not dismissing it as some barely noticed fly that James paid no attention to.



JOSH WILL NOT SAVE THE DAY. I'm just saying that you have a coach going "oh no, I don't have any guys that can play big and physical" with Josh just sitting on the bench.

Then he says of the LA game that Josh couldn't have helped them with what they needed. So just WTF is it that he does? I mean he can't shoot, rebound, defend or get tough? So his good nights are just pure fluke and miracles?

See the extremism on this debate has always come from the "good lord don't let Josh out there at all costs because puppies will die" side. Everyone on my side says "hey, you need bigs and that kid's sorta okay at times, so why not".

The line in the sand on this one isn't even close to the middle. I could understand if I was saying Josh should start and get 30 minutes and could shut down guys like Lebron or Shaq.

I'm only saying that when guys like Noah come to town it's kinda nice to get Josh in there as a big body with both the strength and vertical game to battle them a bit. He helps fill a void.


And all along I've said that if I were coach I wouldn't bench Tyler. I'm saying I'm not that impressed so far, but I sure as heck don't see where the team is so set that he shouldn't play. Ditto for Josh and Solo.


the same people who clamor for Josh to get more playing time like he's on the verge of being an All Star.See. This is petty. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE TO THIS. None. Enjoy your empty search for it.

The "why not" answer to why you don't play Josh has zero traction. The "why" isn't "because he might be an all-star", the "why" is "what else you got". The answer is nothing, and not just nothing but "nothing and we have a need for something".

Pacersfan46
01-31-2010, 04:53 PM
Your idea of a "hard foul" is extremely weak. I've played with friends who went to grab my arm and hit me in the face before, because my arm was moving up to take the ball to the rim. They weren't trying to send a message or mad at me. It's an accident.

You're seriously making something out of nothing.

-- Steve --

Sookie
01-31-2010, 04:55 PM
Sure I can.

Tyler is our most "running into other people" player. Steve wants to say that a hard foul isn't physical, then certainly just running into people isn't either.



I think you're being a little biased there.

Question Tyler's athleticism? Sure. He doesn't seem like he can jump very high ect..

Question his scoring efficiency. Sure. His shooting percentage is terrible. Rebounding numbers aren't that great either.

Question whether he's physical? Seriously? Look, he may or may not have the mentality to "send a message" but he's not afraid of contact like primarily Muprhy..and what seems like Hibbert. In fact, he's clearly more physical than Josh..who, btw..is leaps and bounds more physical than Troy and Roy. Wasn't there rumblings about Troy hating to play against Tyler in practice..I wonder why...

Naptown_Seth
01-31-2010, 04:56 PM
I like Hibbert, but he's afraid to touch people. Obviously from my above post I don't really agree with this exactly. I think you are right about his fear of fouling, but when the ball goes to the post he does bang pretty hard. He was going at Shaq strong. The problem was he couldn't stop Shaq from stepping past him to the lane.

But he does bang like a true big. He's just not laterally quick enough to be a great close out defender that intimidates guys. Actually his best work has come when he stays on the floor and let's his reach straight up do the work.

If he were quicker I think he'd be an all-around tougher player.



edit - Sookie, I don't say he shies from contact, I say his ability to make people feel it isn't what people think it is. He bounces into a lots of people and scraps around for all sorts of plays. But he's not hipchecking them off the court in anything remotely close to what Jeff does. I've said it before, when he's out there he looks like Jeff's younger, smaller brother. He gives several inches and many pounds to him. So he's not having the impact some people think he is.

I could run into a crowd and bump into everyone. People would be annoyed, people would notice me, people might not even like to be around me. I spent many a night in a concert pit. And you know what, people didn't move outta my way like they did when the truly big, tough dudes got in there. I took the contact, but they handed out the contact. It wasn't the same, it isn't the same here.

He's not a soft SF wanna-be, I'm not saying that. He likes to bang. I'm just saying that a guy like Noah or Aldridge isn't afraid to bang either, and their bigger and tougher than him. He bumps into guys like that, they knock him off the block or cram his shot back. That's just how it's been so far.

I wish he was a Dale or even a Foster. I really do.

And I don't think McBob is a Dale. I just think that you play him for the exact same reason you drafted Tyler. Because Dale's not here.


I think he's more out of control than Josh. He does bang into more people. I think Josh bangs into people in a more traditional way. Maybe he could use the 110% motor that drives Tyler, most players could, but not every bump is actually productive. Banging is PART of the game, not the whole game.

Naptown_Seth
01-31-2010, 05:01 PM
Your idea of a "hard foul" is extremely weak. I've played with friends who went to grab my arm and hit me in the face before, because my arm was moving up to take the ball to the rim. They weren't trying to send a message or mad at me. It's an accident.

You're seriously making something out of nothing.

-- Steve --
The "block"/charge. The play on Z. Keep leaving them out because it's easier to "win".

Yes, he reached for one foul, caught Lebron wrong and then flew to Mexico never to be seen again in the game. I can't believe how cheap and nitpicky this is getting. He always bangs with guys hard, he's given hard fouls to other players, and when people go at him in the post you hear air leaving lungs on the banging.

Maybe on TV it looks different, but down there its clearly physical. I don't know that it got any more physical the entire game than when he was out there, other than some of Roy's play defending Shaq.

McKeyFan
01-31-2010, 05:02 PM
McBob made a hard foul against LeBron because he wasn't intimidated. There's something to be said for that.

Others of our players haven't fouled LeBron or others in an intimidating way for a reason.

WetBob
01-31-2010, 05:15 PM
Steve, dismissing a play as "just a foul" and not even discussing the others does seem petty to me. I've acknowledged plenty of good things Tyler has done this year and I'm always willing to point out when Josh comes up short, which he often has in stretches.

It just happens that in the CLE game he got physical with several players and they all felt his fouls.

Slap a Dale jersey on him and everyone would be praising the hard foul on Lebron as a physical play, not dismissing it as some barely noticed fly that James paid no attention to.



JOSH WILL NOT SAVE THE DAY. I'm just saying that you have a coach going "oh no, I don't have any guys that can play big and physical" with Josh just sitting on the bench.

Then he says of the LA game that Josh couldn't have helped them with what they needed. So just WTF is it that he does? I mean he can't shoot, rebound, defend or get tough? So his good nights are just pure fluke and miracles?

See the extremism on this debate has always come from the "good lord don't let Josh out there at all costs because puppies will die" side. Everyone on my side says "hey, you need bigs and that kid's sorta okay at times, so why not".

The line in the sand on this one isn't even close to the middle. I could understand if I was saying Josh should start and get 30 minutes and could shut down guys like Lebron or Shaq.

I'm only saying that when guys like Noah come to town it's kinda nice to get Josh in there as a big body with both the strength and vertical game to battle them a bit. He helps fill a void.


And all along I've said that if I were coach I wouldn't bench Tyler. I'm saying I'm not that impressed so far, but I sure as heck don't see where the team is so set that he shouldn't play. Ditto for Josh and Solo.

See. This is petty. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE TO THIS. None. Enjoy your empty search for it.

The "why not" answer to why you don't play Josh has zero traction. The "why" isn't "because he might be an all-star", the "why" is "what else you got". The answer is nothing, and not just nothing but "nothing and we have a need for something".

I was going to post something about this as well. The biggest "Myth of Josh McRoberts" is the myth of Josh McRoberts.

Nobody is suggesting he's going to turn this team around by himself or that he needs to start or anything like that. Just that he should be given a chance. He plays a position of obvious weakness, and when he's been in he hasn't been that bad.

That's basically it.

Pacersfan46
01-31-2010, 05:16 PM
The "block"/charge. The play on Z. Keep leaving them out because it's easier to "win".

Easier to "win"? There lies your issue. Everything is a competition to you. It's always win/lose. Never possibly an opinion, and someone with a different opinion. That's just unacceptable. It seems like to me that in your head it's impossible for two intelligent people to see the same thing and interpret it differently. It's like you see your own opinion, and then everything else is wrong. Then you get offended because it seems like an insult to your intelligence that anyone could possibly disagree with you. That's how it comes across. It would certainly explain why you go to such lengthy posts and efforts to argue the most tiny of details. Pride issue, maybe?

Here's the fact however, I only addressed a comment about the Lebron foul. I never said Josh WASN'T tough or didn't play like it at any other times. I addressed that one play that you used to characterize him as tough. You're spending all this time arguing a point I never tried to make to "win" yourself. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm just going to ignore you, as I do people who act in such a way in real life. Not worth the time.

-- Steve --

Peck
01-31-2010, 05:22 PM
You know whenever I have to listend to O'Brien the old Kansas song Portrait (he knew) comes to my mind.



He had a thousand ideas, you might have heard his name
He lived alone with his vision
Not looking for fortune or fame
Never said too much to speak of
He was off on another plane
The words that he said were a mystery
Nobody's sure he was sane

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to

He was in search of an answer
The nature of what we are
He was trying to do it a new way
He was bright as a star
But nobody understood him
"His numbers are not the way"
He's lost in the deepest enigma
Which no one's unraveled today

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to
And he tried, but before he could tell us he died
When he left us the people cried,
Oh where was he going to?

He had a different idea
A glimpse of the master plan
He could see into the future
A true visionary man
But there's something he never told us
It died when he went away
If only he could have been with us
No telling what he might say

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view
Oh, where was he going to
But he knew, you could tell by the picture he drew
It was totally something new,
Oh where was he going to?


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eIHXhFJ4FoM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eIHXhFJ4FoM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Naptown_Seth
01-31-2010, 05:49 PM
You won't see it probably, but in defense of myself this was my expanded response when you dismissed the hard foul. You NEVER addressed the rest of these, you just kept on with the 'hard foul" thing. You quoted my question then spun off into the whole "not worth it because you said the word 'win' angle.

If it's not to "win", ie make your point, validate your point, prove your point correct, then why did you ignore those other examples? I've conceded that the hard foul involved him catching his mouth by accident but have not come close to getting the same satisfaction from you addressing the other issues. No opinion on those?

And you weren't trying to say Josh isn't tough because that foul was an accident? It sure sounded like you were. There's a big difference between "Josh might be tough, but in that case it was just an accident, not a classic hard foul" and "Hitting someone in the mouth by accident when they're going to the rim isn't tough, or physical. It's a foul."

Maybe it's a misunderstanding, but it sure seems like there's a lot of "I didn't say those words" to cover up meanings that appear to be clear from the context. It would have been easy to clarify on the follow up that the intention wasn't that Josh wasn't tough, but that I was just using a weaker example in your opinion. Your angle seemed more one of "that's your only example and it's weak".


It seemed pretty physical. He sure as hell wasn't laughing after that, at least for the rest of the half. He looked pretty serious, like he'd got a message. Sure he gets all focused and dials it up, but that only gives merit to the fact that he got his attention.

Plus it was Josh that got robbed on a Lebron call when he took his charge. That's Lebron James and his massive size coming full on off the dribble. And we're going to play the petty game of "I don't like Josh so I ain't gotta admit nothing" and not acknowledge the toughness there too? Or when Big Z slammed the crap out of him about 4 times in a row before he was called for the foul rather than Z?

Brad8888
01-31-2010, 08:21 PM
You know whenever I have to listend to O'Brien the old Kansas song Portrait (he knew) comes to my mind.



He had a thousand ideas, you might have heard his name
He lived alone with his vision
Not looking for fortune or fame
Never said too much to speak of
He was off on another plane
The words that he said were a mystery
Nobody's sure he was sane

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to

He was in search of an answer
The nature of what we are
He was trying to do it a new way
He was bright as a star
But nobody understood him
"His numbers are not the way"
He's lost in the deepest enigma
Which no one's unraveled today

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to
And he tried, but before he could tell us he died
When he left us the people cried,
Oh where was he going to?

He had a different idea
A glimpse of the master plan
He could see into the future
A true visionary man
But there's something he never told us
It died when he went away
If only he could have been with us
No telling what he might say

But he knew, he knew more than me or you
No one could see his view
Oh, where was he going to
But he knew, you could tell by the picture he drew
It was totally something new,
Oh where was he going to?


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eIHXhFJ4FoM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eIHXhFJ4FoM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

IIRC of the real Kansas of Kerry Livgren. Wonderful.