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jhondog28
01-29-2010, 10:22 PM
That was brutal

Spirit
01-29-2010, 10:28 PM
Wow... 73 points? For a team considered an offensive team that's pretty awful.

jhondog28
01-29-2010, 10:30 PM
Shaq vs. Hibbert or Murphy is ridiculous
Lebron vs. Jones was stupid..rush did better
Granger was inept and I agree he should get more of the blame than he does on this board.

BlueNGold
01-29-2010, 10:32 PM
There will come a day when we see Lebron and Kobe getting embarrassed.

Maybe when they turn 70...

pathil275
01-29-2010, 10:41 PM
As expected. Hurts to loose against the Cavs and James, whom I can't stand, but this Indiana team is just as bad as the scoreboard suggests. Hopefully that performance opens Bird's eyes - you won't win a lot of ballgames with a small lineup while shooting the trey in a hurry. Personally I don't have any hope that O'Brien will realise this and change anything.

Hopefully they pull the trigger on potential Murphy trades. A PF with no lowpost moves who doesn't care about defense (or to be fair, who isn't able to defend) can't be the solution. Before this season started most of us were sure that Murphy would struggle and the numbers would drop compared to 2008/09`s stats and few had hope that it'd be possible to trade him before his heavy contract expires in 2011. Now, he actually delivers solid numbers (besides the +/-) and there are some suitors offering cap relief (and 1st round picks?). If that's true what the media distributes, it's inexplicable that the Pacers refuses these proposals. I am looking forward to the trade deadline next month in the hope that the Pacers' front office bids for something and doesn't reject the right offer.

Best thing is that we got a little step closer to John Wall..

Sookie
01-29-2010, 10:45 PM
Wow... 73 points? For a team considered an offensive team that's pretty awful.

I typed this in the other thread.

Take out the only three players to shoot over 40% (Dahntay, Price, Troy) and the Pacers shot 28%. That's ridiculous for a pro team.

I Love P
01-29-2010, 10:47 PM
1 FG in the last 9 minutes of the game? Thats pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty sad. (Larry David) Hey another loss means were a step closer to a potential draft lottery party. If the Pacers finish in the bottom 5 I will for sure ask off for work and be glued to the TV.

Lose, Lose, Lose!

1984
01-29-2010, 10:47 PM
That was brutal

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

It seems like we have progressively gone down hill since the last win streak. There is very little upside for this team at this point. I hope the Pacers finally commit to the trade deadline and draft after this game. Not only did Danny Granger stamp his "Yes, you are right I don't belong in the All-Star game" ballot, but the Pacers also revealed they don't have a punchers chance of making the playoffs.

Spirit
01-29-2010, 10:48 PM
O'Brien needs to be fired.. that's all I can say anymore.

KnicksRGarbage
01-29-2010, 10:48 PM
Granger man.. 6-23 FG, 1-8 3ptFG in 40 min... That's crazy.

kellogg
01-29-2010, 10:49 PM
The last two games really illustrates just how far this team has fallen. If is wasn't already painfully apparent in the last couple of years, I think this year really hammers home the fact that this may well not be another year or two before a playoff appearance, but maybe 5. Unless one of our younger players just surprises beyond all the wildest expectations, the team tanks and gets a top 5 pick a couple of years (and picks well), and/or Bird makes a Dale Davis for JO-type trade or two, I am really beginning to think we are back in another basketball 'winter' (like the 1980s).

Bird and O'Brien remind me of the George Irvine/Dick Versace days...no, actually those guys won more games...my bad.

dal9
01-29-2010, 10:51 PM
here is some good news ive noticed

we are almost getting no techs this year--or any case seems like a lot less than in yrs past. (now pessimistically, we can say that is bc no one cares enough to get Ts)

but is there a way to find out how we rank in Ts among teams this year and vs. past pacer teams

Lance George
01-29-2010, 10:53 PM
Brandon Rush with his fifth consecutive double-figures scoring game. He's actually looked somewhat promising in January, a big step-up from his earlier play. There was a time where I probably would've ranked him in the bottom 10% of the entire league. Not now.

Brad8888
01-29-2010, 10:58 PM
Pacer FT's 5-5

Cavs FT's 23-44

Should we have taken it into the paint more and at least tried to get some foul shots? At some point, Lebron would have missed the ball when he went for blocks and SOMEBODY would have had a foul called on them even if it was Lebron who committed the foul.

Pacer Rebounds 38

Cavs Rebounds 61

Only Pacer with + anything in +/-, you guessed it, Josh McRoberts +8, despite his overall stats not being any better than anyone else's. At least Jim played him some. Yay, Jim...

Granger obviously wasn't feeling it at any point, really, so why does he shoot nearly twice as many shots as anyone else, including 1-8 from the arc?

speakout4
01-29-2010, 10:58 PM
This was just another game where the pacers gave the other team the night off.

kellogg
01-29-2010, 10:58 PM
here is some good news ive noticed

we are almost getting no techs this year--or any case seems like a lot less than in yrs past. (now pessimistically, we can say that is bc no one cares enough to get Ts)

but is there a way to find out how we rank in Ts among teams this year and vs. past pacer teams

That's bad news to me...because although I don't want 'Rasheed Wallace' tech numbers, the fact that no one on this team shows any fire or emotion (other than Tyler, who doesn't play), perhaps reflects the low techs this year.

Even if I'm wrong...who cares about this stat, we're nightly getting abused and with a President (Bird) and GM (Morway) who can't or won't do anything about the coach or players.

It's about as important as saying we have the highest number of players with size 15 sneakers.

focused444
01-29-2010, 10:59 PM
I used Granger's injury in the beginning of the season to justify to myself why he wasn't playing aggressively. Yes, I know Danny isn't a super strong finisher at the rim, opting to finish with a lay up even when it appears he could dunk. When he attacks the rim he early in games it changes a lot.

1. He gets a rhythm going, leaving the defender off balance, and ultimately finding a nice mix between his mid-range game and the 3.

2. He draws fouls. The big comeback game against Phoenix did not start in the second half. It started 2 mins before the half when granger got Amare his 3rd foul. Amare never had a rhythm that game.

3. It doesn't always happen, but when Danny drives and gets fouled hard or doesn't get a call he gets angry. Angry Danny Granger on the court is the best Danny Granger!

I think Danny is naturally a laid back guy (I have never met him). It seems he needs something during the game to happen to spark his intensity.

It all starts with him getting his rhythm, or he can shoot them out of the game on an off night.

The team is void of talent so I won't blame him for trying to carry them. I will blame the guy who allows him to bomb 3's until they're continually down 20. At some point you have to ask if it's Granger's taking advantage of the free wheeling system though.

The game is psychological also. Remember all of reggie's pre game rituals to get him pumped up? I don't know if granger is still hurting, but I don't see fire game in and game out.

BlueNGold
01-29-2010, 11:02 PM
The last two games really illustrates just how far this team has fallen. If is wasn't already painfully apparent in the last couple of years, I think this year really hammers home the fact that this may well not be another year or two before a playoff appearance, but maybe 5. Unless one of our younger players just surprises beyond all the wildest expectations, the team tanks and gets a top 5 pick a couple of years (and picks well), and/or Bird makes a Dale Davis for JO-type trade or two, I am really beginning to think we are back in another basketball 'winter' (like the 1980s).

Bird and O'Brien remind me of the George Irvine/Dick Versace days...no, actually those guys won more games...my bad.

Yes, we are in the dark ages. Clearly this team plays with very little force. We shoot so many threes the game isn't even worth watching. We have sub-par coaches and sub-par players. The result is our record.

But will it be 5 years? I doubt it. I think Roy, Danny, Brandon, Tyler, Price and future pieces are going to get us in the playoffs within 3 years. The way the NBA works is...veteran teams seem to be good enough to squeak in...even if they aren't that great. In 3 years, we will have several guys with sufficient talent in their prime...and we will probably have a fresh start with a new coach...and the bad contracts should be behind us. Yes, I think we will be knocking on the door in 3 years...if not in.

McKeyFan
01-29-2010, 11:07 PM
here is some good news ive noticed

we are almost getting no techs this year--or any case seems like a lot less than in yrs past. (now pessimistically, we can say that is bc no one cares enough to get Ts)

but is there a way to find out how we rank in Ts among teams this year and vs. past pacer teams

I like a man who digs deep.

focused444
01-29-2010, 11:10 PM
I like a man who digs deep.

:twss: ;)

CableKC
01-29-2010, 11:11 PM
Only Pacer with + anything in +/-, you guessed it, Josh McRoberts +8, despite his overall stats not being any better than anyone else's. At least Jim played him some. Yay, Jim...
The mere fact that McRoberts p*ssed off Lebron with that foul should warrant some playing time. :box:

speakout4
01-29-2010, 11:11 PM
I like a man who digs deep.
Or the glass isn't bone dry.

Unclebuck
01-29-2010, 11:12 PM
O'Brien needs to be fired.. that's all I can say anymore.

Ok, I suppose I was waiting for someone to say that so I could say this:
It seems to me that O'Brien made "all the right moves" tonight.

Start Roy - Yes
Bench Troy - Yes
play Josh - Yes
play AJ - Yes

I mean he did it all tonight.

Didn't want to make the whole post in green because it makes it difficult to read

Sookie
01-29-2010, 11:14 PM
Ok, I suppose I was waiting for someone to say that so I could say this:
It seems to me that O'Brien made "all the right moves" tonight.

Start Roy - Yes
Bench Troy - Yes
play Josh - Yes
play AL - Yes

I mean he did it all tonight.

Didn't want to make the whole post in green because it makes it difficult to read

Obrien can't shoot for the team. He can't make good passes either. He didn't really do anything bad tonight, except maybe playing Roy and Troy together a bit. And perhaps benching Dun for Head..just to see what Head could do..wouldn't have been a bad move.

I mean the style of play sucks, but it even seems like the team tried to slow it down a bit. They just couldn't make anything. And they got called for 800 fouls.

speakout4
01-29-2010, 11:15 PM
Ok, I suppose I was waiting for someone to say that so I could say this:
It seems to me that O'Brien made "all the right moves" tonight.

Start Roy - Yes
Bench Troy - Yes
play Josh - Yes
play AL - Yes

I mean he did it all tonight.

Didn't want to make the whole post in green because it makes it difficult to read
You may be correct but this team appears to be dispirited and that also falls on JOB. Where's Rex Ryan? He could win some games for us.

jhondog28
01-29-2010, 11:17 PM
I am tired of pinning this entire teams issues on JOB. There are so many things wrong with this team including the fact that this was basically an away game for the home team. That in itself was embarrassing, but i digress. This team seriously needs to get healthy and stay that way for them to succeed. Granger looks hesitant to drive to the basket and has lost some explosiveness. Dunleavy needs some leg strength to be effective since he is a jump shooter. Hibbert is still young but he was being pushed around down low (it was Shaq so I give him a break). But we are so far behind in talent level I cannot pin this solely on the coach.

IndyPacer
01-29-2010, 11:21 PM
As expected. Hurts to loose against the Cavs and James, whom I can't stand, but this Indiana team is just as bad as the scoreboard suggests. Hopefully that performance opens Bird's eyes - you won't win a lot of ballgames with a small lineup while shooting the trey in a hurry. Personally I don't have any hope that O'Brien will realise this and change anything.

Hopefully they pull the trigger on potential Murphy trades. A PF with no lowpost moves who doesn't care about defense (or to be fair, who isn't able to defend) can't be the solution. Before this season started most of us were sure that Murphy would struggle and the numbers would drop compared to 2008/09`s stats and few had hope that it'd be possible to trade him before his heavy contract expires in 2011. Now, he actually delivers solid numbers (besides the +/-) and there are some suitors offering cap relief (and 1st round picks?). If that's true what the media distributes, it's inexplicable that the Pacers refuses these proposals. I am looking forward to the trade deadline next month in the hope that the Pacers' front office bids for something and doesn't reject the right offer.

Best thing is that we got a little step closer to John Wall..

O'Brien isn't going to change his ways. He'll change the lineups constantly but not his obstinate and misguided coaching.

I'd love to see us pick up another 1st round draft pick in this upcoming draft. We could get some nice prospects to help the team. Maybe someone like Lawal or Booker could be acquired in the mid- to late 1st round. Either would at least be solid role players willing to play a much more physical game than Troy, which I think is badly need for the Pacers.

Unclebuck
01-29-2010, 11:22 PM
I think tonight once and for all (I hope) shows how useless the +/- stat is.

I thought Rush and Jones had the best games for the Pacers tonight and yet they had the worst +/- on the team.

Sookie
01-29-2010, 11:24 PM
I think tonight once and for all (I hope) how useless the +/- stat is.

I thought Rush and Jones had the best games for the Pacers tonight and yet they had the worst +/- on the team.

Ugh.

It's a statistic. It's no more or less useful than points, assists, turnovers, rebounds ect..

What does that mean. It means Rush and Jones were on the floor either at the same times as Lebron. Or the combination of players wasn't good.

I'm not sure what the hysteria is about.
This is a mediocre team with mediocre talent that has underachieved. And actually, hasn't played all that bad since Price entered the lineup.
They lost to LA and Cleveland. Wow. How terrible. And what a shocker.

They live and die by the three. And they played a fantastic team tonight..and couldn't make a basket to save their lives. That doesn't mean Granger's terrible and it's time to trade him. Doesn't mean we are as bad as the Nets *we aren't, not even close* we just played a few very tough games.

They are up and down, because the team relies on some younger guys and some previously injured guys.
I think some changes need to be made. That's pretty obvious. But I also think there's a pretty decent core here with DJones, Granger, Hibbert, Rush, Price and perhaps Tyler if he still exists. That's very young and decently talented. Certainly are some things to be happy about. The sky isn't falling.

Unclebuck
01-29-2010, 11:26 PM
Difference tonight (besides a huge talent difference) is the pacers didn't put forth enough effort on either offense or defense to have a chance to even keep the game close. should have been a 30 point game if the cavs make a decent % of their free throws.

Unclebuck
01-29-2010, 11:28 PM
Ugh.

It's a statistic. It's no more or less useful than points, assists, turnovers, rebounds ect..

What does that mean. It means Rush and Jones were on the floor either at the same times as Lebron. Or the combination of players wasn't good.

and yet so many in this forum use the stat as if it is important, as if it justifies certain players receive playing time

vnzla81
01-29-2010, 11:28 PM
Ok, I suppose I was waiting for someone to say that so I could say this:
It seems to me that O'Brien made "all the right moves" tonight.

Start Roy - Yes
Bench Troy - Yes
play Josh - Yes
play AJ - Yes

I mean he did it all tonight.

Didn't want to make the whole post in green because it makes it difficult to read

is good that he played the young guys, they are the future of this team and they need to see what they have, I don't mind watching games like tonight were you see the young players playing, if the lose they lose if they win even better.

CableKC
01-29-2010, 11:28 PM
Ok, I suppose I was waiting for someone to say that so I could say this:
It seems to me that O'Brien made "all the right moves" tonight.

Start Roy - Yes
Bench Troy - Yes
play Josh - Yes
play AJ - Yes

I mean he did it all tonight.

Didn't want to make the whole post in green because it makes it difficult to read
I didn't have any problem with the rotations.....I think that it was better for Troy to come off the bench cuz of his matchup against Z. I will applaud JO'B for playing McRoberts....but he didn't have too much choice.....at the point when McRoberts came in....Hibbert already had 3 fouls by the 2nd QTR.

I don't blame JO'B for the loss tonight with the regular "Why did he start Murphy over Hibbert?" response......to be fair.....this loss goes to the Team as a whole....mainly cuz of the heavy reliance on taking jumpshots/3pt shots....which weren't falling. But unless JO'B ACTUALLY wanted them to continually take jumpshots.....he did very little to discourage this. JO'B doesn't deserve all of the blame for the loss.....but he deserves a part of the blame for not stopping it.

I'm guessing that JO'B did say something....cuz I noticed that after the 2nd half....the Team did start attacking the basket resulting with 2 Lebron swats that got the "Lebron bandwagoners" on their feet :puke: .

cdash
01-29-2010, 11:29 PM
Ugh.

It's a statistic. It's no more or less useful than points, assists, turnovers, rebounds ect..

What does that mean. It means Rush and Jones were on the floor either at the same times as Lebron. Or the combination of players wasn't good.

Yeah, I agree. I think individual game +/- stats (especially in a blowout) are disposable, but the total season +/- is telling.

jhondog28
01-29-2010, 11:30 PM
I think tonight once and for all (I hope) how useless the +/- stat is.

I thought Rush and Jones had the best games for the Pacers tonight and yet they had the worst +/- on the team.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22009&split=9&team=

top 5 player combinations in the league as of right now...

Pacers leading combination is ranked 20th

pwee31
01-29-2010, 11:32 PM
You don't get a step closer to John Wall?!?!

I understand what some are trying to say, but losing games doesn't guarantee John Wall. Do the odds improve? YES, but it's not a given.

The Nets have won 4 games this year.. that's it, and they only get a 25% chance at John Wall. That mean there's a 75% chance that won't happen.

It's a decent chance, but it's not guaranteed for any lottery team.


On the other hand, our team is terrible. There have been games where they've hit threes and got some defensive stops, and looked like a decent team, but on average, we're a really bad team this year.

The defense didn't improve at all and may have gotten worse.

J.Jack was more important to the team then anyone ever realized, and it's showing in Toronto now that he has taken over the starting spot.

Earl Watson is not a starting PG on any team in the NBA (oh wait). I think he's a decent backup, that can manage a team, but his offense is pretty below, for the most part besides forced drives off and on to the hoop

Dahntay has been a pleasant surprise mostly on offense, defense has been lacking here or there, but you see the effort, and I think he needs to see the court more, without having to guard power forwards.

Solo has had decent spurts. Has athleticism and a decent mid range game, but needs to bulk up some if he wants to guard the bigs he's matched up against.

Tyler has looked good once in a rhythm and able to play multiple stretches of games. FG% is pretty bad, but he's been coming off the shins and ear infection most of the season. Hopefully a healthy Tyler will be a bright spot next year.

Price has played better then I would've imagined at this point. He's looked like our best PG for the majority of the season. Can hit open shots, and get others shot as well. I think he still needs to work on quite a few things obviously, but the future looks bright.

Head has been positive for the most part, has had a bigger role at times then expected. I think the last few games he played selfishly at times and took some bad shots, but I guess that's our style? Undersized for his position but oh well

Not going to really go in depth with those that are returning Pacers from last year. I think the majority of them have been worse aside from Hibbert who has improved, and Rush lately. Foster's back has been the story for him. I would like to think Dunleavy's injury is the cause of his terrible play of late, since he did have a nice couple of weeks when first returned. Granger has forced a lot of bad shots.. who knows why.. the foot? Murphy has shot a lower % but that is about it, everything else is pretty much expected in my eyes. Ford's benching says it all. Wish I could see more McRoberts... and Diener actually.

Looking forward to the trade deadline, and nothing happens then just got ride out the season and wait till next year

Speed
01-29-2010, 11:32 PM
I thought Rush played exceptional D tonight. He has about as quick feet as you can find in the league defensively at the wing spots. He also has a pretty shot, I've always thought that though and I'm always surprised when I see criticism of his shot. I can also see why management could become enamored with the guy, he has a bunch of individual skills that if he can ever get his heart, mind, and confidence around, he'll be a hell of a player. I don't think Brandon realizes how good he could be. He surprises players with his quickness, now if they can get his brain to catch up to his physical gifts.

Justin Tyme
01-29-2010, 11:33 PM
Come on Bird, Granger, Murphy, and Dunleay shot 60% of the 3's and went 2-15. When are going to put an end to this maddess?

IMO, Dunleavy needs to be shut down, period.

Tell Granger 41% FGA just ain't gett'n the job done for the money he's being paid. He's been allowed to fall in love with the 3 pt shot. I wonder how that happened??

Trade Murphy ASAP!

jhondog28
01-29-2010, 11:37 PM
Come on Bird, Granger, Murphy, and Dunleay shot 60% of the 3's and went 2-15. When are going to put an end to this maddess?

IMO, Dunleavy needs to be shut down, period.

Tell Granger 41% FGA just ain't gett'n the job done for the money he's being paid. He's been allowed to fall in love with the 3 pt shot. I wonder how that happened??

Trade Murphy ASAP!

i am the biggest dun supporter here and even i agree with this. He can did absolutely no lift. He needs to work on strengthening his legs and practice but he is not ready to help the team win.

CableKC
01-29-2010, 11:40 PM
I read from rotowire.com that Bird commented on Granger not getting to the line enough and taking too many 3pt shots.

Anyone have any more details and quotes on what Bird said?

ksuttonjr76
01-29-2010, 11:44 PM
Wow...what is this strange feeling inside of me? I didn't watch the game, saw the score on www.espn.com, and I thought "Nothing new". Been watching the Pacers since the late 80's (6th grade), and I have never felt like this before. Oh well. At least I can represent the Pacers on NBA 2K10.

CableKC
01-29-2010, 11:48 PM
i am the biggest dun supporter here and even i agree with this. He can did absolutely no lift. He needs to work on strengthening his legs and practice but he is not ready to help the team win.
I have no problem with Dunleavy....I don't want him traded as much as I want Murphy traded ( only cuz of the apparent interest in him, the whole "addition by subtraction" thing and the financial impact on the 2010-2011 SalaryCap )....only cuz he's still one of those Players that make the rest of the Team better when he's on the floor.......the only problem is that he's effective when his shots are falling...which hasn't been consistent since his return.

With Dunleavy's ON and OFF offense.....I have no problem with sticking with him when his shot is dropping....but when it's off ( which is more often then not ).....you'd think that JO'B would actually try to play Luther when we see that Dunleavy's shot isn't falling. Unlike last year......when we were hit with SG/SF injuries.....we actually have some somewhat decent SG help in BRush, Inferno and Luther.

vnzla81
01-29-2010, 11:48 PM
Im not mad about this team losing anymore, lest calm down and wait for the draft, I liked what I saw today from Brandon and AJ, today was not a good game for Roy but we know that he can do better than that, the same goes to Granger, I just hope they keep playing the young guys for the rest of the year I don't care if they lose, they need the experience and lest hope that Birds trade the big contracts and start to rebuild this team for real.

cdash
01-29-2010, 11:53 PM
I read from rotowire.com that Bird commented on Granger not getting to the line enough and taking too many 3pt shots.

Anyone have any more details and quotes on what Bird said?

Probably more "king of the obvious" types of comments.

pwee31
01-29-2010, 11:58 PM
Granger was 6-23 from the field.

Lebron was 6-18. ehhh

Granger 1-8 from 3

Lebron 0-4. ehhh

Granger 0-0 Ft line

Lebron 10-17 .... ding ding ding

BlueNGold
01-30-2010, 12:05 AM
Ok, I suppose I was waiting for someone to say that so I could say this:
It seems to me that O'Brien made "all the right moves" tonight.

Start Roy - Yes
Bench Troy - Yes
play Josh - Yes
play AJ - Yes

I mean he did it all tonight.

Didn't want to make the whole post in green because it makes it difficult to read

Yes, he should have started Troy. I'm sure if Troy was putting a body on Shaq and smacking down Lebron's layups, it wouldn't have been such a blow-out.

Sookie
01-30-2010, 12:09 AM
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22009&split=9&team=

top 5 player combinations in the league as of right now...

Pacers leading combination is ranked 20th

I just looked at the player combinations for just the Pacers...

We haven't even used a
Price, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert lineup....isn't this a pretty obvious lineup? In fact, I think it'd actually be decent..Solid defense, solid offense, lots of energy..an actual low post matchup..no Troy...Watson, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert is the top one I think. And honestly, I think AJ compliments that group better than Watson does..so really JOB..I'd like to see it.

gummy
01-30-2010, 12:11 AM
and yet so many in this forum use the stat as if it is important, as if it justifies certain players receive playing time

Unclebuck, it seems to me that the +/- has become more important to examine and comment on in large part because our coach thinks it is so important. He mentions it often and he has used it to justify various coaching decisions, including playing time.

I don't really want to have the wider "are statistics useful" conversation but clearly no one stat stands alone. I don't claim to be an advocate of this particular stat, but to be fair, we should point out that many who are excited about +/- say that it is close to useless until there is a larger sample size. According to them, the +/- in a single game (or a very small sample size) means very little or can even be misleading while examining it over the course of 30 or 40 games can tell you something useful about optimal player combos and performance.

So I think it is a little unfair to hold up +/- in a single game as if it says something about the usefulness of the stat when most of those who are fans of it already concede it means little in that context.

imawhat
01-30-2010, 12:21 AM
What's the over/under on terrible shots vs. Toronto?

Well, I got what I wanted as a Pacers fan (that starting lineup), and Hibbert goes out and has the worst game of his career. If the Cavs had been in high gear tonight, this would've been a 50 point blowout.

BlueNGold
01-30-2010, 12:31 AM
I just looked at the player combinations for just the Pacers...

We haven't even used a
Price, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert lineup....isn't this a pretty obvious lineup? In fact, I think it'd actually be decent..Solid defense, solid offense, lots of energy..an actual low post matchup..no Troy...Watson, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert is the top one I think. And honestly, I think AJ compliments that group better than Watson does..so really JOB..I'd like to see it.

I don't think JOb wants a 6 game win streak haunting Murphy either...;)

joeyd
01-30-2010, 12:49 AM
Opinions vary about the +/- but I agree that it is not a stat that can be applied to a single game, but rather a prolonged period of play or stretch of games. Not a statistician but there are some statistical calculations that can prove tendency, and over a stretch during a season, the +/- stat may have some predictive value for performance over subsequent stretches.

On the topic of team play, I agree that we have a mediocre team that underachieves. However, what seems to bother so many of us is that we have had a mediocre team for a few years now. The difference is that in years past, they were overacheivers, or, at the very least, did not underachieve as badly.

Sookie
01-30-2010, 12:54 AM
Opinions vary about the +/- but I agree that it is not a stat that can be applied to a single game, but rather a prolonged period of play or stretch of games. Not a statistician but there are some statistical calculations that can prove tendency, and over a stretch during a season, the +/- stat may have some predictive value for performance over subsequent stretches.

On the topic of team play, I agree that we have a mediocre team that underachieves. However, what seems to bother so many of us is that we have had a mediocre team for a few years now. The difference is that in years past, they were overacheivers, or, at the very least, did not underachieve as badly.

mediocre talent with heart that overachieves..fans can deal with. In fact, lots of fans even enjoy.

This mess of our best players jacking up threes...not so much.

jeffg-body
01-30-2010, 02:48 AM
I think tonight was just a team with emmense talent at about every position on their team playing a mediocre team in it's rebuilding phase. We were out talented in almost every position. Even though it was ugly I was pleasently surprised by Brandon and his defense. It was obvious we need talent and we are on our path in getting more talent, just hoping it's young talent though.

D-BONE
01-30-2010, 08:40 AM
Pacers inside rotation = worst in the NBA (or at least bottom 4-5).

By this I don't mean scoring as much as physicality, positional defense, offesnive & defensive rebounding, toughness, banging, strength, etc. Put Foster back and you get a little help, but he's effectively become a non-factor this season.

We play anybody with more than one legit inside presence and we are toast. See the last two games as examples.

Next up, Pacers PG rotation = worst in the NBA (or at least bottom 4-5). Promising, but very inexperienced and underdeveloped second rounder, a journeyman with limited abilities on the offensive end and inconsistent defense, and a banished scoring guard trapped in a liliputian PG body that underachieves on defense.

So if you have no PG and not interior presence at the 4/5, why would we expect that you could challenge for the playoffs.

We've been saying it for a while now, but the team is overstocked at the wings and the cupboards are bare at 1, 4, and 5 - at least in terms of what you'd truly like at those spots.

You'd think Bird and Co. could have unloaded some of the wing dead weight by now. I mean we're okay with just money saving moves at this point. It's not like we have to demand that much. And, despite his rebound numbers, I personally count TM in this group b/c every other facet of his game is that of a 6-10 wing player.

Justin Tyme
01-30-2010, 10:09 AM
Has anyone noticed Granger's stats are very Stephon Jackson like?

Jackson...................Granger

MPP
40.............................36

FG%
42%..........................40%

3PT
32%..........................35%

FT
78%..........................83%

RPG
5...............................5

Anyone notice that the Bobcats are playing 500 ball with not that much talent? Could it possibly be a coach DOES make a difference?

kellogg
01-30-2010, 10:18 AM
Has anyone noticed Granger's stats are very Stephon Jackson like?

Jackson...................Granger

MPP
40.............................36

FG%
42%..........................40%

3PT
32%..........................35%

FT
78%..........................83%

RPG
5...............................5



You forgot two things:

Handguns
1............................0

Shots fired randomly in air at strip club at 3:00 a.m.
1............................0

kellogg
01-30-2010, 10:24 AM
Could someone answer one puzzling question for me? Was reading Mike Wells' article on a possible Murphy trade and one of the things that was mentioned was that Murphy 'might not' be traded because of the uncertain status of Ty/Jeff, and that it would leave the team thin at PF.

My question is 'Who Cares"? What possible reason or logic is there in retaining an albatross contract on a player who plays absolutely no 'D' in order that the PF position isn't 'thin'? Is this to give the team a chance at finishing the regular season winning 1 out of every 3 games, as opposed to 1 out of every 4 or 5?

Please tell me this can't possibly factor in any offer for Murphy.

Justin Tyme
01-30-2010, 10:42 AM
You forgot two things:

Handguns
1............................0

Shots fired randomly in air at strip club at 3:00 a.m.
1............................0



I'm not an advocate of Jackson, just showing how bad Granger's play is this season. There were a "number" of posters on this board that constantly complained about Jackson's poor shooting %, his ability to jack up 3's, and not driving to the basket. Just showing how their stats compare this year.

Justin Tyme
01-30-2010, 10:58 AM
Could someone answer one puzzling question for me? Was reading Mike Wells' article on a possible Murphy trade and one of the things that was mentioned was that Murphy 'might not' be traded because of the uncertain status of Ty/Jeff, and that it would leave the team thin at PF.

My question is 'Who Cares"? What possible reason or logic is there in retaining an albatross contract on a player who plays absolutely no 'D' in order that the PF position isn't 'thin'? Is this to give the team a chance at finishing the regular season winning 1 out of every 3 games, as opposed to 1 out of every 4 or 5?

Please tell me this can't possibly factor in any offer for Murphy.


Apparently, the NBADL is not anything Bird has heard of, considering he's never used it, b/c if push came to shove there is always someone that the Pacers can get cheap to finish out the season from the DNBADL. As you say, this team is going nowhere with or without Murphy, so that shouldn't even be considered a reason NOT to trade Murphy. It sounds more like Bird doesn't want to take Jimmy's crutch away from him. Maybe he doesn't want to expose Jimmy's coaching weakness of not having a prominent 3 pt shooter to rely upon.

jhondog28
01-30-2010, 11:00 AM
Has anyone noticed Granger's stats are very Stephon Jackson like?

Jackson...................Granger

MPP
40.............................36

FG%
42%..........................40%

3PT
32%..........................35%

FT
78%..........................83%

RPG
5...............................5

Anyone notice that the Bobcats are playing 500 ball with not that much talent? Could it possibly be a coach DOES make a difference?

In fairness the Bobcats have a much more talented group than we do right now. I Felton, Wallace and Jackson are pretty talented in my opinion.

DaveP63
01-30-2010, 11:00 AM
We stink on ice. Dunleavy needs to go lay down and rest. He's done about nothing. The team put forth no effort, played with no emotion, had no teamwork. It's a island of five men in a sea of Cavs. They looked absolutely awestruck standing around and watching LBJ. I can' help but think that if they were really motivated, the first time LBJ started his dancing and antics on the court, somebody would put him on his a$$. What an embarrassment....

Brad8888
01-30-2010, 11:05 AM
Apparently, the NBADL is not anything Bird has heard of, considering he's never used it, b/c if push came to shove there is always someone that the Pacers can get cheap to finish out the season from the DNBADL. As you say, this team is going nowhere with or without Murphy, so that shouldn't even be considered a reason NOT to trade Murphy. It sounds more like Bird doesn't want to take Jimmy's crutch away from him. Maybe he doesn't want to expose Jimmy's coaching weakness of not having a prominent 3 pt shooter to rely upon.

Or, that Bird has been a huge fan of threes from bigs since he played the game himself.

Agreed about the NBDL. There must be somebody there with a nose for the ball who could come here and get spot minutes on a rebuilding team. Oh, wait, we have O'B on the sidelines. Why bother with signing someone he would only use as a scrub on the practice squad anyway?

BlueNGold
01-30-2010, 11:09 AM
I'm not an advocate of Jackson, just showing how bad Granger's play is this season. There were a "number" of posters on this board that constantly complained about Jackson's poor shooting %, his ability to jack up 3's, and not driving to the basket. Just showing how their stats compare this year.

Granger's productivity is down because he's become one dimensional...probably due to the injury to his heel. He used to drive to the bucket, but now he just launches 3's.

The same can be said for the team. The team has become one dimensional too. It's easy to guard players when they have no variety to their plan of attack. Perhaps the complete lack of strategy confuses the opposition a little, but it confuses us at least as much.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 11:47 AM
The mere fact that McRoberts p*ssed off Lebron with that foul should warrant some playing time. :box:
I didn't think he was going to get up. The trainer was freaking out for a second and I think he would have gone to the locker room but he had to shoot the FTs to stay in the game.



First off, Rush's defense was brilliant. Not "pretty good", it was elite. Over and over he'd avoid biting fakes, including from Lebron, and then get up to contest the shot...clang, even an air ball or two. Lebron had him on a break and tried to pull him into a foul with an upfake on the move with Rush backpeddling. Usually a player will come forward in a hurry to recover the ground and run right into the foul, but Rush played it smart and was able to challenge him without fouling.

I mean there is no box score stat for this stuff, but I watched at least 10 misses come as guys tried to go at him for a shot.

Yes Brandon lost his shot in the 2nd half after carrying them in the first half, but his defense stayed dialed in all night.


Maybe if Danny hadn't single-handedly dismantled the offense this might have been a competitive game at times. He didn't just miss threes even, but obviously his first couple of deep misses didn't shy him off taking plenty more of those.

Danny is not the defender that Rush is, he can't justify shooting this bad with the idea that he was getting it done at the other end.


Roy would have been okay vs Shaq if only he'd figured out to cut Shaq off his "step across the lane" move that he lives by. Also the help defense didn't come down in time to prevent it till later in the game, but they did eventually get some stops, strips or at least challenged efforts by doing that.


It's clear that the Pacers don't have Lebron, but last year we sorta did. Last year Danny had outstanding nights to come right back at Lebron, often right at him, and that made the Pacers a lot more competitive. What we saw last night was what the Cavs vs Celts would look like if Lebron put up the offensive numbers that Danny did.



The rest of the group was par for course, except for Dun who just continues to stink. That pass he threw that was stolen looked like a half-hearted attempt, just terrible stuff.

McBob in, nothing special, but 10 minutes is all I ask. That didn't make or break them, it just lets him get some burn to help improve his game.

McBob did get robbed on two fouls - his blocking foul looked like a clear Lebron charge and his "armbar shove" after Big Z continually plowed into him was cheap and looked closer to an offensive foul. McBob had position on him and you don't just get to ram people out of the way, that's not the same as banging. If that's Duncan he gets the foul called.



Oh, my guess is that after Lebron destroyed Troy's weak layup that the Cavs front office hung up the phone for all future Troy for Z phone calls. Good job Troy, you just blew your trade value and your only chance to play for a contender.

I saw one of the steals by him which was nice, but FOUR and 2 blocks??? When did that happen? All I saw was him going 1-4 from deep, destroyed by Shaq, and outrebounded several times by Varejao.





Oh, final note - the Cavs bench was literally just laughing at us most of the night, and much of it was led by Lebron. He's really a cocky jerk, it's not just a bad rap.

And Mr. Ego called for a stat sheet somewhere in the late 3rd/early 4th, can't remember exactly when. I think it was after his run of shot blocks when I guess he wanted to see how many he had or something.

I can't believe it, but Kobe now dwarfs him in class (and Shaq). Kobe, the classy one, never thought I'd think that.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 12:04 PM
Seriously, we are going for the full-on derail. Well I'll bite like a dummy.


You forgot two things:

Handguns
1............................???

Shots fired randomly in air at strip club at 3:00 a.m.
0............................0
Fixed. It's hardly random to fire off warning shots to break up a brawl, especially when it works. Oh no, Jackson made the people stop beating the hell out of each other for the 10 minutes it would have taken for the police to get there just as it ended with people in the hospital.

Next time 2 guys with prison time start some crap and it breaks out into a brawl, let's see what Granger does. And please don't tell me Danny never goes out anywhere. He does. And creeps like that are out there.

Maybe he just doesn't go out with a mouthy PG with a knack for drawing trouble to himself? Something to consider. Jack's situations after games ended when he got away from Indy/Pacers, but the Pacers situations didn't end after he left.



It's just odd that if he's such a bad player and person that he goes to teams, they win, and all his teammates and people around the team love him. Charlotte media can't get enough of this guy, they all say how great he is and how good for the team he's been. I know one of his former neighbors, he thought very highly of him as a person and enjoyed him as a neighbor.

But yes, just because everyone that actually interacts with him thinks he's great, the people that have never met him or dealt with him probably know better. That DOES make sense.



Here's the kicker - right after the trade GSW clearly won, got much better, and it was great. Jackson haters said "just you wait". They then used his "I don't want to be here" moment as the "see" and used Dun's one good season (non-playoffs) followed by Troy's one good season (non-playoffs) as another "see".

Then Dun returns and Jack goes to Charlotte (you know, because he was all untradable and stuff) and now we have Dun just horrible again and Troy playing some of the worst defense on the worst Pacers team in 20 years while Jackson is taking a conference rival not just to the playoffs but over .500.

I'm seeing a trend and that trend does not match the opinions of a bunch of Indy fans.


And on top of that, Jackson's contract would have already expired. You could have just let him play to the end of it and be done with him without destroying the team's payroll for years.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 12:11 PM
I'm not an advocate of Jackson, just showing how bad Granger's play is this season. There were a "number" of posters on this board that constantly complained about Jackson's poor shooting %, his ability to jack up 3's, and not driving to the basket. Just showing how their stats compare this year.
I do agree with this. Jack was a player that you wanted to have limit his 3PAs and wanted him to not lose focus with ref arguments, but otherwise he got the job done.

So now we have Danny with his head who-knows-where and just chucking a horrible make and take rate of 3s, WAY beyond "chucker" Jackson. We all would have lost it if Jack had insisted on taking 9-10 3PA in a game. It was frustrating when he'd go 1-5.


And you know that Danny's 3PAs are way up even for him. He and Dun both make me wonder quite a bit if they are doing some of this to spite JOB and his system. Both are WAY below where they were 2 years ago, let alone Danny last year.

Are they both still hurt, have they lost that much game, and if so how does that explain the endless BAD CHOICES by both of them. Their games just seem way out of character.

That's why I can't help but at least wonder if some of it's intentional. It looks intentional.

jhondog28
01-30-2010, 12:20 PM
Seth I dont think there is a conspiracy theory with Danny and Miek against JOB. It is pretty obvious that Mike has no leg strength and has lost confidence in his game overall. Sloppy passes, bad turnovers are a direct by product of his lack of confidence. You can tell he feels uncomfortable. Danny I think really is not 100% shoot even 90%. The one thing you lose with a foot injury is the quick step and driving ability. He has been relying on his 3. He is a much better player when he uses his explosiveness to generate dirve penetration and then let that energy feed into his jump shot. Dun and Granger are both very similar they feed off their emotions, but need to be 100% to be effective. Watch next year Dun will be very impressive...1. because he will be mostly healthy and 2. it is a contract year. In golden state he had a pretty good year before his contract was up. Hence Mullin and Cohen signing him for that much money.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 12:28 PM
I think tonight once and for all (I hope) shows how useless the +/- stat is.

I thought Rush and Jones had the best games for the Pacers tonight and yet they had the worst +/- on the team.
Yep, and it also shows how useless the FG%, STL, BLK and REB stats is

I mean clearly Troy was nearly Lebron's equal on defense, right? 4 steals, 2 blocks, best defender in the game. I overheard the Cavs bench saying "damn that Murphy, he's everywhere out there, he's stealing more passes than Al Capone, he's like Spider-Man, we gotta avoid him if we have any hope of winning".

Brandon sucked, I mean all I need to do is look at his 5-14 and know he cost Indy the game. Good defense? Hardly. 1 steal, 2 blocks. Hell he turned it over 3 times. Troy had his 4 steals, 2 blocks and NO turnovers. Troy was TWICE the defender Rush was based on the stats.

Troy was 50% from the field, Rush was about 35%, and add in those TO's and it proves that Troy was far superior to Rush tonight of offense too.


And of course Granger was the best player overall. I mean he scored the most points, and isn't points the name of the game? Plus his 10 rebounds as he muscled guys out underneath and kept Shaq and Varejao off the glass. I mean he outrebounded both of them. Obviously he was better as a rebounder than them.

Price had zero assists, he's one of the worst PGs in the NBA and should never, ever play. His A/TO ratio is a whopping 0.00 for this game, a god-awful 0/2.

Other than Lebron the best passer out there was clearly Danny Granger. He was making things happen for everyone, juking and burning by guys to set up dimes. 5 assists, no one else could touch him. In fact if you take out James then Danny nearly matched the entire Cavs team in assists, 5/6. This proves that Danny is a better teammate than the entire Cavs team is to Lebron. Not any guy, I mean the whole group. Danny and Lebron could win a title just going 2 on 5.


And the thing is, none of those other stats depend on who's on the court with you. Scoring 40 vs Lebron is the same as scoring 40 against me. Only the +/- is impacted by who you play with/against and at what part of the game.



This entire post brought to you by the color green.

Green. The other font color. What can Green do for you.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 12:32 PM
Seth I dont think there is a conspiracy theory with Danny and Miek against JOB. It is pretty obvious that Mike has no leg strength and has lost confidence in his game overall. Sloppy passes, bad turnovers are a direct by product of his lack of confidence. You can tell he feels uncomfortable. Danny I think really is not 100% shoot even 90%. The one thing you lose with a foot injury is the quick step and driving ability. He has been relying on his 3. He is a much better player when he uses his explosiveness to generate dirve penetration and then let that energy feed into his jump shot. Dun and Granger are both very similar they feed off their emotions, but need to be 100% to be effective. Watch next year Dun will be very impressive...1. because he will be mostly healthy and 2. it is a contract year. In golden state he had a pretty good year before his contract was up. Hence Mullin and Cohen signing him for that much money.
I don't know if I hope you are right or not. I'd like to think they wouldn't get that way, but then it would be tough to blame them for at least being discouraged and less than inspired.

But if you are right then it means that they are doing the best they can, and that stinks right now. So then you have to worry if they will ever really recover. It's one thing to get motivated and suddenly get better, but if you have an injury dragging you this far down you usually don't suddenly turn it around.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 12:43 PM
I thought Rush played exceptional D tonight. He has about as quick feet as you can find in the league defensively at the wing spots. He also has a pretty shot, I've always thought that though and I'm always surprised when I see criticism of his shot. I can also see why management could become enamored with the guy, he has a bunch of individual skills that if he can ever get his heart, mind, and confidence around, he'll be a hell of a player. I don't think Brandon realizes how good he could be. He surprises players with his quickness, now if they can get his brain to catch up to his physical gifts.
You say this about his defense but then say "if only his brain could catch up to his gifts"?

I'd say mentally that good defense is harder than offense. He knows the game and he knows bad offense. I don't fault him for not fitting into this offense one bit. His defensive instincts and awareness tells you the whole story.

He didn't shy from defending Lebron and actually got him to miss several shots. So I don't think he lacks confidence. His problem is he actually has a SHOOTING CONSCIENCE and it demands that he doesn't just dominate the shooting and instead tries to involve his teammates.

I scouted him as Kansas exactly this way, and it just keeps on continuing and upsetting people. Put in a system where his off ball offense helps and he's not asked to always be the main or 2nd scorer off of mostly iso play.

I mean Reggie didn't play that way, he came off screens and rarely took a huge volume of shots.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 12:54 PM
I just looked at the player combinations for just the Pacers...

We haven't even used a
Price, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert lineup....isn't this a pretty obvious lineup? In fact, I think it'd actually be decent..Solid defense, solid offense, lots of energy..an actual low post matchup..no Troy...Watson, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert is the top one I think. And honestly, I think AJ compliments that group better than Watson does..so really JOB..I'd like to see it.
That's only the top 50. Trust me, they've used more than 50 combos of 5 man groups. If you add up the minutes of those top 50 you'd come up short for total minutes the team has played this year.

Plus the list only shows positive +/- and I'm pretty sure as a team they are just a tad below even on the +/-. I think they are about -300 as a team. So think about all the combos in the red that means if you are looking at 50 that are in the black.

Sookie
01-30-2010, 01:44 PM
That's only the top 50. Trust me, they've used more than 50 combos of 5 man groups. If you add up the minutes of those top 50 you'd come up short for total minutes the team has played this year.

Plus the list only shows positive +/- and I'm pretty sure as a team they are just a tad below even on the +/-. I think they are about -300 as a team. So think about all the combos in the red that means if you are looking at 50 that are in the black.

True, but thinking about it, I don't know that I have seen that lineup.
A.J. is almost always in with Dun. Perhaps it's been in for a few minutes.

But to me, it's such an obvious OBVIOUS lineup.

Hibbert's the best big man, by a mile. He's at Center.

Granger plays better at the PF. And no matter how many threes he jacks up, he's still a better PF than Troy, or McBob, or Tyler, or Solo.

Jones is aggressive offensively, and defends well. Rush seems to have really turned a corner. Fantastic defense, and filling in for offense.

And quite frankly, Price would provide more to that group than Watson. He's an outside threat. Spreading the floor is important, and Watson just doesn't do that. He's more aggressive..hell overall more talanted.

It'd be an interesting group to see for longer than a minute..

imawhat
01-30-2010, 02:37 PM
99% sure that lineup hasn't been used because I've been waiting anxiously to see it.

Tom White
01-30-2010, 03:10 PM
It's just odd that if he's such a bad player and person that he goes to teams, they win, and all his teammates and people around the team love him. Charlotte media can't get enough of this guy, they all say how great he is and how good for the team he's been. I know one of his former neighbors, he thought very highly of him as a person and enjoyed him as a neighbor.

But yes, just because everyone that actually interacts with him thinks he's great, the people that have never met him or dealt with him probably know better. That DOES make sense.


...and yet, all those teams have been willing to trade him away, with never a mention of any of them wanting to bring him back?

Charlotte may love him now, but he has proven to be a hothead who wears out his welcome.

jhondog28
01-30-2010, 03:23 PM
Eh when he is winning he is happy. When he is losing he is not. Fickle player if you ask me.

El Pacero
01-30-2010, 06:25 PM
I just looked at the player combinations for just the Pacers...

We haven't even used a
Price, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert lineup....isn't this a pretty obvious lineup? In fact, I think it'd actually be decent..Solid defense, solid offense, lots of energy..an actual low post matchup..no Troy...Watson, Rush, Dahntay, Granger, Hibbert is the top one I think. And honestly, I think AJ compliments that group better than Watson does..so really JOB..I'd like to see it.

This is my ideal lineup, but had no idea we have never used it! crazy

ksuttonjr76
01-30-2010, 08:51 PM
Personally, it's not the foot injury that's holding Granger back. IMHO, I think he genuinely don't care to play for JOB anymore. The player that I see on the floor just goes through the motions of playing basketball. Dunleavy...who knows? He's making mistakes that just don't make sense fundamentally.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 08:52 PM
Eh when he is winning he is happy. When he is losing he is not. Fickle player if you ask me.
I can agree with that a bit, but I thought he was quite a trooper after the brawl. He worked hard and often got after it really well on defense.

He also didn't start phoning it in while he was being boo'd by his home crowd here, so I think we need to check just who was the more fickle between him and the fans.

I agree that he shouldn't have resigned at GSW if he didn't want to be there, but I'm not 100% sure he didn't change his mind due to events after he signed.

I think he felt like it would continue to be good but then saw that the Warriors were maybe not really pointing in an upward direction but rather cutting costs mostly and looking to restart.

Also he's not the only unhappy guy there, Ellis wanted out too.


How many players are traded and then brought back to their old teams? Did Pippen return to the Bulls or Drexler return to Portland? How is that an indicator of anything? Teams "wanted to trade them" and "didn't want them back"?

You know who got asked back? Al Harrington, and it worked out great. He was so happy to be back with Rick and Indy. Remember how he didn't get benched after a halftime rant and then traded a week later?

How about when you trade for a guy and then bench him outright for weeks at a time, better or worse indicator about how much trouble a player is? See, Ron got told to stay away, so did Tins. And now TJ is DNP'd nightly. But Jackson kept being played, and was played in Oakland too even after his trade request.

So somehow that doesn't seem that disruptive. He wasn't great in Oakland this year but he wasn't way off his norm. Only his 3pt shot was really low. His numbers on 3p%, 2p% and PPS were all really close to what Ellis has put up this year.


Indy fans turned on him. Nellie turned on him (and the rest of the Warriors). It's not really a long list of people that don't want him.

And honestly do you think the Warriors would have done a Dunleavy for Jackson trade this year? Hell no. And Charlotte wouldn't do one either.

So who really got stuck with the "bad" guys? Seems like Troy and Dun are more untradable than Jackson is. Or Tins, or TJ for that matter. Lotta guys not getting traded while "disruptive" Jackson was.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2010, 08:57 PM
Personally, it's not the foot injury that's holding Granger back. IMHO, I think he genuinely don't care to play for JOB anymore. The player that I see on the floor just goes through the motions of playing basketball. Dunleavy...who knows? He's making mistakes that just don't make sense fundamentally.
That's my sense of it too. I admit I don't know, I'm just saying if I was told that this was the truth I wouldn't be one bit surprised.

Squirrelz
01-31-2010, 04:33 AM
Only 2 teams with more losses than Indy. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/banana.gif

John Wall here we come.