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View Full Version : Jim O'Brien thinks Murph with 4 (other) perimeter plays is the best lineup



HeliumFear
01-26-2010, 09:27 PM
We will go with it as many games as we can as long as we can because that is our best lineup.” – O'Brien on the small lineup.

He's half-right. Small ball is our best weapon. The part he's wrong about is that the lineup he refers to starts Murph over Hibbert.

I looked at lineup comparisons via 82games.com and was not shocked at all to see:

1)Watson-Rush-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert is our best unit(at least best small unit,but I do believe it is the best overall),posting a +/- of 44 (far and away the best mark),the best defensive and offensive pts per possesion in our top 5 units used (second overall on defensive due to a garbage time lineup),one of the best rebounding %s we have(it's worth noting that of the 5 top rebounding % lineups we have,only 1 involves Murph),and an advantage in TOs over their opponent.

2) Murphy lineups have lower rebounding %s. It's worth mentioning again.

3) Every unit with Murphy in it allows more than 1 point per possesion. Granger-Hibbert at 4-5 takes it down to .91-.95. Even a unit with Dunleavy at the 4 (wow) next to Hibby has a better defensive mark.


Obviously not everything is stats. I can see it watching the games too though.

^ The above is a slightly edited post I made on another forum. Another thought came to me:

Doesn't it make alot more sense for Murph to come off the bench? Murphleavy would be a great bench punch and they wouldn't necessarily have to play starter level defense.

Link of interest: http://www.82games.com/0910/0910IND2.HTM

Peck
01-26-2010, 09:38 PM
Before I blow up and go off of the deep end I need to know the context of this statement.

Does he mean Murphy specifically or could it just be a center and 4 other smaller players?

vnzla81
01-26-2010, 09:42 PM
Before I blow up and go off of the deep end I need to know the context of this statement.

Does he mean Murphy specifically or could it just be a center and 4 other smaller players?

his dream might come true, Diener,Watson, head,Danny and Murphy. who knows. I can't wait for the draft.:(

HeliumFear
01-26-2010, 09:44 PM
I suppose he could mean either. The quote is from Bruno's inside the game report from the recent victory over the 76ers. The starting lineup was Watson/Head/Rush/Granger/Murphy. I took it as him meaning this is our best lineup. I guess that's an assumption. My bad.

IndyPacer
01-26-2010, 10:05 PM
Hell, why don't we just trade our best defensive players and athletes and get an all PG lineup. Get all PGs that can shoot the 3. Turn it up a notch and go REALLLY small ball. Spread out the floor some more with no one inside to take advantage of it inside, which is the reason you try to spread the defense out in the first place. I'm about sick of this nonsense. If he continues as the coach of this team, let me know when we have John Wall. We're definitely increasing our odds by keeping JOB as coach.

McKeyFan
01-26-2010, 10:06 PM
Not surprised. He got one win by starting Murph at the five. He will string that out for the next five or six games until the evidence demands he change again.

Hibbert can be successful starting at the five and he'll yank him the very next game.

Those plus minus numbers don't surprise me in the least. But I simply watch the games. When Hibbert is in, we go on a run (usually). When Murphy comes in, we go down (usually).

Once in a while there is an anomaly, like last night at Philly. JOB will ride it out until reality forces him to emphasize Roy again.

I'm having a hard time holding on as a fan.

Sookie
01-26-2010, 10:31 PM
For the style of basketball JOB wants to play, he's right, the smaller lineup with Murphy, will be more successful in his style.

Now, any lineup is going to be better with Granger at the four than Murphy, so in a typical system, a Granger/Hibbert frontcourt is probably better.

I actually think the problem is more Head at the SG, starting spot. I think Head is good in spot minutes, quick offense off the bench. But I'm not sure he's that great for any huge role.

DGPR
01-26-2010, 10:34 PM
:cry:

vnzla81
01-26-2010, 10:35 PM
Who wants to bet that Gasol is going to have his career high against Murphy tomorrow?:confused:

ChicagoJ
01-26-2010, 10:47 PM
Kill me now.

Trophy
01-26-2010, 11:25 PM
Troy's a PF not a center, JOB!

JOB needs to stop messing around with the starting lineup. Watson/Rush/Granger/Murphy/Hibbert was alright.

Brad8888
01-26-2010, 11:31 PM
All Jim is saying
is give threes a chance

Roaming Gnome
01-27-2010, 12:53 AM
Color me surprised... :kickcan:
This season can't end fast enough!

imawhat
01-27-2010, 02:56 AM
Those are some damning stats.

Hadn't seen them but they confirm what I figure is our best lineup. Our worst combos across the board at every stat include a Murphy/Hiibbert combo.

I'm not sure what lineup O'Brien is referring to, but the chances of Murphy being in that lineup are about 100%.

DaveP63
01-27-2010, 08:12 AM
Before I blow up and go off of the deep end I need to know the context of this statement.

Does he mean Murphy specifically or could it just be a center and 4 other smaller players?

I could swear I heard it come out of his mouth when interviewed during the last telecast. Maybe I just imagined it :hmm:. However, all of you are correct. It won one game, so he will ride it into the dirt while Roy makes a butt mold on his bench seat. :bs:

Unclebuck
01-27-2010, 08:36 AM
OK, here I am "defending O'Brien" again. Not really what I am doing, but just trying to provide a possible and reasonable explanation. There have been more than 1 rumor that Troy Murphy and the coaching staff have not been "getting along" I have no idea if it is true, to be honest I don't really buy it myself (why would he be upset with the coaches) But if we assume it is true, perhaps O'Brien doesn't want to "lose" Troy completely by bringing him off the bench - I think it is reasonable to assume that is a possibility - that Troy may go into a funk.

Obviously most of you wouldn't care and in fact would probably wished he'd go into a funk all the way out of town. But if you are the coach and you are trying to save your job, then Murphy can be a valuable player.

Bringing Roy off the bench has some merit. It might help keep him out of foul trouble as the refs tend to call the game close early on. Plus Roy's attitude is the same whether starting or coming off the bench (Troy probably not)

I think we all can agree that the Troy/Roy combo is what has to stop and Jim has decided that also.

I too think that we are better with Roy on the court, but he can only be expected to play around 25 per game right now, so what is soooooooooo wrong about bringing him off the bench. It seems reasonable to me - once again I don't get the suicidal reaction of some of you. I think it is "reasonable decision" to start Troy and bring Roy off the bench.

if this is me defending O'Brien come hell or high water then OK, I don't see that, but whatever.

One thing I will say is that in general I think Mike and Roy work well together (if for no other reason than Mike is a willing post passer, so bringing them both off the bench is reasonable. Plus with Granger and Troy on the bench there are a lot more shots for Roy and the Pacers can concentrate on getting the ball into the post which they don't do as much when Danny is on the court

Unclebuck
01-27-2010, 08:42 AM
Before I blow up and go off of the deep end I need to know the context of this statement.

Does he mean Murphy specifically or could it just be a center and 4 other smaller players?

I think Jim has come to the conclusion that the big lineup (Troy and Roy on the court together) is not working at all. So we won't see that lineup again except in rare circumstances) we'll see either Troy or Roy at center - at least until Tyler and maybe if Jeff ever comes back things might change

jhondog28
01-27-2010, 08:56 AM
You know maybe I have underestimated how important Jeff Foster is to this roster. I mean I know he does not produce points and have huge offensive numbers, but he sure could make a lot of the roster better. He can play center or PF with Hibbert and he always plays really well with Dunleavy. I wonder what this lineup could do.

PG: Price or Watson
SG: Dunleavy
SF: Granger
PF: Foster
C: Hibbert

Would be interesting to watch.

pacersgroningen
01-27-2010, 10:11 AM
If we play Murphy at the center position along with 4 perimeter guys, who is going to get the rebound when we miss? I'll bet ya, it won't be one of our guys, since we are all waiting around the 3pt line

Anthem
01-27-2010, 10:32 AM
OK, here I am "defending O'Brien" again. Not really what I am doing, but just trying to provide a possible and reasonable explanation. There have been more than 1 rumor that Troy Murphy and the coaching staff have not been "getting along" I have no idea if it is true, to be honest I don't really buy it myself (why would he be upset with the coaches) But if we assume it is true, perhaps O'Brien doesn't want to "lose" Troy completely by bringing him off the bench - I think it is reasonable to assume that is a possibility - that Troy may go into a funk.

Obviously most of you wouldn't care and in fact would probably wished he'd go into a funk all the way out of town. But if you are the coach and you are trying to save your job, then Murphy can be a valuable player.

Bringing Roy off the bench has some merit. It might help keep him out of foul trouble as the refs tend to call the game close early on. Plus Roy's attitude is the same whether starting or coming off the bench (Troy probably not)

I think we all can agree that the Troy/Roy combo is what has to stop and Jim has decided that also.

I too think that we are better with Roy on the court, but he can only be expected to play around 25 per game right now, so what is soooooooooo wrong about bringing him off the bench. It seems reasonable to me - once again I don't get the suicidal reaction of some of you. I think it is "reasonable decision" to start Troy and bring Roy off the bench.

if this is me defending O'Brien come hell or high water then OK, I don't see that, but whatever.

One thing I will say is that in general I think Mike and Roy work well together (if for no other reason than Mike is a willing post passer, so bringing them both off the bench is reasonable. Plus with Granger and Troy on the bench there are a lot more shots for Roy and the Pacers can concentrate on getting the ball into the post which they don't do as much when Danny is on the court
Good thoughts, UB.

Since86
01-27-2010, 10:36 AM
OK, here I am "defending O'Brien" again. Not really what I am doing, but just trying to provide a possible and reasonable explanation. There have been more than 1 rumor that Troy Murphy and the coaching staff have not been "getting along" I have no idea if it is true, to be honest I don't really buy it myself (why would he be upset with the coaches) But if we assume it is true, perhaps O'Brien doesn't want to "lose" Troy completely by bringing him off the bench - I think it is reasonable to assume that is a possibility - that Troy may go into a funk.

I don't care if he loses Troy Murphy. He's about to lose the whole damn team.

McKeyFan
01-27-2010, 10:41 AM
I too think that we are better with Roy on the court, but he can only be expected to play around 25 per game right now, so what is soooooooooo wrong about bringing him off the bench. It seems reasonable to me - once again I don't get the suicidal reaction of some of you. I think it is "reasonable decision" to start Troy and bring Roy off the bench.

That's reasonable. The problem is that Roy only got 18 minutes last night.

I understand that you are not a big JOB supporter. You are simply trying to articulate what may be in the mind of JOB to vitriolic JOB opponents. You may not agree with his madness, but you believe there is a method to his madness.

I don't think there's even much of a method, personally. I just think he's stubborn and refuses to bench Murphy because 1. He's so committed to his system and 2. A billion people have probably told him to bench Murphy and he now stubbornly refuses to.

If this is about him coddling Murph's ego, then JOS needs to kick his own butt with his sore foot or get fired immediately.

BillS
01-27-2010, 10:46 AM
I don't care if he loses Troy Murphy. He's about to lose the whole damn team.

Damn, those liars. Claiming they like this lineup.

Since86
01-27-2010, 11:30 AM
You lost me. I don't see anyone saying they like this lineup.

JohnnyBGoode
01-27-2010, 11:58 AM
That's reasonable. The problem is that Roy only got 18 minutes last night.

I understand that you are not a big JOB supporter. You are simply trying to articulate what may be in the mind of JOB to vitriolic JOB opponents. You may not agree with his madness, but you believe there is a method to his madness.

I don't think there's even much of a method, personally. I just think he's stubborn and refuses to bench Murphy because 1. He's so committed to his system and 2. A billion people have probably told him to bench Murphy and he now stubbornly refuses to.

If this is about him coddling Murph's ego, then JOS needs to kick his own butt with his sore foot or get fired immediately.


http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/DoubleD.jsp?league=00&season=22008&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1Note: Rookies for the season denoted by an asterisk (*)

2008-09 DOUBLE-DOUBLE LEADERS : Total Double Doubles
Displaying results 1-50 of 444 found
Results: 1-50 51-100 101-150 151-200 201-250 251-300 301-350 351-400 401-444 Next »

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PPG RPG APG STPG BLKPG DblDbl TriDlb
1 David Lee , NYK 81 34.9 16.0 11.7 2.1 1.0 .3 65 0
2 Dwight Howard , ORL 79 35.7 20.6 13.8 1.4 1.0 2.9 63 1
3 Chris Paul , NOH 78 38.5 22.8 5.5 11.0 2.8 .1 50 6
4 Tim Duncan , SAS 75 33.7 19.3 10.7 3.5 .5 1.7 49 0
4 Troy Murphy , IND 73 34.0 14.3 11.8 2.4 .8 .5 49 0
6 Deron Williams , UTA 68 36.8 19.4 2.9 10.7 1.1 .3 44 0
7 Chris Bosh , TOR 77 38.0 22.7 10.0 2.5 .9 1.0 42 0
8 Emeka Okafor , CHA 82 32.8 13.2 10.1 .6 .6 1.7 39 0
9 Antawn Jamison , WAS 81 38.2 22.2 8.9 1.9 1.2 .3 38 0
9 Ming Yao , HOU 77 33.6 19.7 9.9 1.8 .4 1.9 38 0
11 Pau Gasol , LAL 81 37.0 18.9 9.6 3.5 .6 1.0 37 1
12 Al Jefferson , MIN 50 36.7 23.1 11.0 1.6 .8 1.7 30 0
12 Shaquille O'Neal , PHX 75 30.0 17.8 8.4 1.7 .7 1.4 30 0
14 LeBron James , CLE 81 37.7 28.4 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 29 7
14 * Kevin Love , MIN 81 25.3 11.1 9.1 1.0 .4 .6 29 0
14 Steve Nash , PHX 74 33.6 15.7 3.0 9.7 .7 .1 29 0
14 Zach Randolph , LAC-NYK 50 35.1 20.8 10.1 2.1 .9 .3 29 0
14 David West , NOH 76 39.2 21.0 8.5 2.3 .6 .9 29 0
19 Andris Biedrins , GSW 62 30.0 11.9 11.2 2.0 1.0 1.5 28 0
19 Paul Millsap , UTA 76 30.1 13.5 8.6 1.8 1.0 1.0 28 0
19 Luis Scola , HOU 82 30.3 12.7 8.8 1.5 .8 .1 28 0
22 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL 81 37.7 25.9 8.4 2.4 .8 .8 26 0
23 Marcus Camby , LAC 62 31.1 10.3 11.1 2.0 .8 2.1 25 0
24 Mehmet Okur , UTA 72 33.5 17.0 7.7 1.7 .8 .7 23 0
25 Jose Calderon , TOR 68 34.3 12.8 2.9 8.9 1.1 .1 22 0
25 Kevin Garnett , BOS 57 31.1 15.8 8.5 2.5 1.1 1.2 22 0
27 Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 69 35.8 12.9 8.5 2.0 1.3 1.0 21 0
28 Udonis Haslem , MIA 75 34.1 10.6 8.2 1.1 .6 .3 20 0
28 Nene Hilario , DEN 77 32.6 14.6 7.8 1.4 1.2 1.3 20 0
28 Al Horford , ATL 67 33.5 11.5 9.3 2.4 .8 1.4 20 0
28 Josh Smith , ATL 69 35.1 15.6 7.2 2.4 1.4 1.6 20 0
28 Dwyane Wade , MIA 79 38.6 30.2 5.0 7.5 2.2 1.3 20 0
28 Gerald Wallace , CHA 71 37.6 16.6 7.8 2.7 1.7 .9 20 0
34 LaMarcus Aldridge , POR 81 37.1 18.1 7.5 1.9 1.0 1.0 19 0
34 Carlos Boozer , UTA 37 32.3 16.2 10.4 2.1 1.1 .2 19 0
34 Jason Kidd , DAL 81 35.6 9.0 6.2 8.7 2.0 .5 19 3
37 * Brook Lopez , NJN 82 30.5 13.0 8.1 1.0 .5 1.8 18 0
37 Lamar Odom , LAL 78 29.7 11.3 8.2 2.6 1.0 1.3 18 0
37 Tyrus Thomas , CHI 79 27.5 10.8 6.4 1.0 1.2 1.9 18 0
40 * Marc Gasol , MEM 82 30.7 11.9 7.4 1.7 .8 1.1 17 0
40 * Jason Thompson , SAC 82 28.1 11.1 7.4 1.1 .6 .7 17 0
42 Andrew Bogut , MIL 36 31.2 11.7 10.2 2.0 .6 1.0 16 0
42 Andrew Bynum , LAL 50 28.9 14.3 8.0 1.4 .4 1.8 16 0
42 Devin Harris , NJN 69 36.1 21.3 3.3 6.9 1.7 .2 16 0
42 Antonio McDyess , DET 62 30.1 9.6 9.8 1.3 .7 .8 16 0
42 Brad Miller , CHI-SAC 70 30.0 11.9 7.8 3.3 .7 .5 16 0
42 * Greg Oden , POR 61 21.5 8.9 7.0 .5 .4 1.1 16 0
42 Amar'e Stoudemire , PHX 53 36.8 21.4 8.1 2.0 .9 1.1 16 0
49 Tyson Chandler , NOH 45 32.1 8.8 8.7 .5 .3 1.2 15 0
49 Kevin Durant , OKC 74 39.0 25.3 6.5 2.8 1.3 .7 15 0
Displaying results 1-50 of 444 found
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Do you understand what a parrot does?

BillS
01-27-2010, 12:05 PM
You lost me. I don't see anyone saying they like this lineup.


The small lineup that allowed the Indiana Pacers to beat the Philadelphia 76ers 109-98 Monday night is a tactic that has been effective for much of the season.

The players like it, and coach Jim O'Brien hopes to employ it as much as possible in the foreseeable future.

Jeff Rabjohns, http://www.indystar.com/article/20100126/SPORTS04/1260353/1088/SPORTS04/Popular-small-lineup-produces-in-2nd-half

Peck
01-27-2010, 12:21 PM
Hey, shouldn't I get some credit for not just jumping on this with both feet and blaming O'Brient?;)

However I do want to say that no matter who starts at center does anyone remember when O'Brien was first hired and people on here got mad at other people on here for claiming that JOB used a gimmick offense?

Anyone still want to dispute that he is a gimmick coach?

BRushWithDeath
01-27-2010, 12:26 PM
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/DoubleD.jsp?league=00&season=22008&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1Note: Rookies for the season denoted by an asterisk (*)

2008-09 DOUBLE-DOUBLE LEADERS : Total Double Doubles
Displaying results 1-50 of 444 found
Results: 1-50 51-100 101-150 151-200 201-250 251-300 301-350 351-400 401-444 Next »

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PPG RPG APG STPG BLKPG DblDbl TriDlb
1 David Lee , NYK 81 34.9 16.0 11.7 2.1 1.0 .3 65 0
2 Dwight Howard , ORL 79 35.7 20.6 13.8 1.4 1.0 2.9 63 1
3 Chris Paul , NOH 78 38.5 22.8 5.5 11.0 2.8 .1 50 6
4 Tim Duncan , SAS 75 33.7 19.3 10.7 3.5 .5 1.7 49 0
4 Troy Murphy , IND 73 34.0 14.3 11.8 2.4 .8 .5 49 0
6 Deron Williams , UTA 68 36.8 19.4 2.9 10.7 1.1 .3 44 0
7 Chris Bosh , TOR 77 38.0 22.7 10.0 2.5 .9 1.0 42 0
8 Emeka Okafor , CHA 82 32.8 13.2 10.1 .6 .6 1.7 39 0
9 Antawn Jamison , WAS 81 38.2 22.2 8.9 1.9 1.2 .3 38 0
9 Ming Yao , HOU 77 33.6 19.7 9.9 1.8 .4 1.9 38 0
11 Pau Gasol , LAL 81 37.0 18.9 9.6 3.5 .6 1.0 37 1
12 Al Jefferson , MIN 50 36.7 23.1 11.0 1.6 .8 1.7 30 0
12 Shaquille O'Neal , PHX 75 30.0 17.8 8.4 1.7 .7 1.4 30 0
14 LeBron James , CLE 81 37.7 28.4 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 29 7
14 * Kevin Love , MIN 81 25.3 11.1 9.1 1.0 .4 .6 29 0
14 Steve Nash , PHX 74 33.6 15.7 3.0 9.7 .7 .1 29 0
14 Zach Randolph , LAC-NYK 50 35.1 20.8 10.1 2.1 .9 .3 29 0
14 David West , NOH 76 39.2 21.0 8.5 2.3 .6 .9 29 0
19 Andris Biedrins , GSW 62 30.0 11.9 11.2 2.0 1.0 1.5 28 0
19 Paul Millsap , UTA 76 30.1 13.5 8.6 1.8 1.0 1.0 28 0
19 Luis Scola , HOU 82 30.3 12.7 8.8 1.5 .8 .1 28 0
22 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL 81 37.7 25.9 8.4 2.4 .8 .8 26 0
23 Marcus Camby , LAC 62 31.1 10.3 11.1 2.0 .8 2.1 25 0
24 Mehmet Okur , UTA 72 33.5 17.0 7.7 1.7 .8 .7 23 0
25 Jose Calderon , TOR 68 34.3 12.8 2.9 8.9 1.1 .1 22 0
25 Kevin Garnett , BOS 57 31.1 15.8 8.5 2.5 1.1 1.2 22 0
27 Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 69 35.8 12.9 8.5 2.0 1.3 1.0 21 0
28 Udonis Haslem , MIA 75 34.1 10.6 8.2 1.1 .6 .3 20 0
28 Nene Hilario , DEN 77 32.6 14.6 7.8 1.4 1.2 1.3 20 0
28 Al Horford , ATL 67 33.5 11.5 9.3 2.4 .8 1.4 20 0
28 Josh Smith , ATL 69 35.1 15.6 7.2 2.4 1.4 1.6 20 0
28 Dwyane Wade , MIA 79 38.6 30.2 5.0 7.5 2.2 1.3 20 0
28 Gerald Wallace , CHA 71 37.6 16.6 7.8 2.7 1.7 .9 20 0
34 LaMarcus Aldridge , POR 81 37.1 18.1 7.5 1.9 1.0 1.0 19 0
34 Carlos Boozer , UTA 37 32.3 16.2 10.4 2.1 1.1 .2 19 0
34 Jason Kidd , DAL 81 35.6 9.0 6.2 8.7 2.0 .5 19 3
37 * Brook Lopez , NJN 82 30.5 13.0 8.1 1.0 .5 1.8 18 0
37 Lamar Odom , LAL 78 29.7 11.3 8.2 2.6 1.0 1.3 18 0
37 Tyrus Thomas , CHI 79 27.5 10.8 6.4 1.0 1.2 1.9 18 0
40 * Marc Gasol , MEM 82 30.7 11.9 7.4 1.7 .8 1.1 17 0
40 * Jason Thompson , SAC 82 28.1 11.1 7.4 1.1 .6 .7 17 0
42 Andrew Bogut , MIL 36 31.2 11.7 10.2 2.0 .6 1.0 16 0
42 Andrew Bynum , LAL 50 28.9 14.3 8.0 1.4 .4 1.8 16 0
42 Devin Harris , NJN 69 36.1 21.3 3.3 6.9 1.7 .2 16 0
42 Antonio McDyess , DET 62 30.1 9.6 9.8 1.3 .7 .8 16 0
42 Brad Miller , CHI-SAC 70 30.0 11.9 7.8 3.3 .7 .5 16 0
42 * Greg Oden , POR 61 21.5 8.9 7.0 .5 .4 1.1 16 0
42 Amar'e Stoudemire , PHX 53 36.8 21.4 8.1 2.0 .9 1.1 16 0
49 Tyson Chandler , NOH 45 32.1 8.8 8.7 .5 .3 1.2 15 0
49 Kevin Durant , OKC 74 39.0 25.3 6.5 2.8 1.3 .7 15 0
Displaying results 1-50 of 444 found
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Do you understand what a parrot does?

Do you understand that the Pacers would be absolutely crazy not to trade Murphy for any player on that list?

special ed
01-27-2010, 12:33 PM
Yeah, I've got to believe it's simply a method of pumping up any trade value Murphy still has.

Sparhawk
01-27-2010, 12:43 PM
Hey, shouldn't I get some credit for not just jumping on this with both feet and blaming O'Brient?;)

However I do want to say that no matter who starts at center does anyone remember when O'Brien was first hired and people on here got mad at other people on here for claiming that JOB used a gimmick offense?

Anyone still want to dispute that he is a gimmick coach?

Can't say that I ever liked JOB. I really thought a run and gun offense would be exciting and get fans in the stands. He simply doesn't have the personnel to do so, and yet he still thinks he can. I understand coaches have a set offense they like to run, but a coach is also supposed to work within the strengths/weaknesses of the players on the team.

As long as small ball means more losses then I'm fine with that.

McKeyFan
01-27-2010, 01:19 PM
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/DoubleD.jsp?league=00&season=22008&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1Note: Rookies for the season denoted by an asterisk (*)

2008-09 DOUBLE-DOUBLE LEADERS : Total Double Doubles
Displaying results 1-50 of 444 found
Results: 1-50 51-100 101-150 151-200 201-250 251-300 301-350 351-400 401-444 Next »

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PPG RPG APG STPG BLKPG DblDbl TriDlb
1 David Lee , NYK 81 34.9 16.0 11.7 2.1 1.0 .3 65 0
2 Dwight Howard , ORL 79 35.7 20.6 13.8 1.4 1.0 2.9 63 1
3 Chris Paul , NOH 78 38.5 22.8 5.5 11.0 2.8 .1 50 6
4 Tim Duncan , SAS 75 33.7 19.3 10.7 3.5 .5 1.7 49 0
4 Troy Murphy , IND 73 34.0 14.3 11.8 2.4 .8 .5 49 0
6 Deron Williams , UTA 68 36.8 19.4 2.9 10.7 1.1 .3 44 0
7 Chris Bosh , TOR 77 38.0 22.7 10.0 2.5 .9 1.0 42 0
8 Emeka Okafor , CHA 82 32.8 13.2 10.1 .6 .6 1.7 39 0
9 Antawn Jamison , WAS 81 38.2 22.2 8.9 1.9 1.2 .3 38 0
9 Ming Yao , HOU 77 33.6 19.7 9.9 1.8 .4 1.9 38 0
11 Pau Gasol , LAL 81 37.0 18.9 9.6 3.5 .6 1.0 37 1
12 Al Jefferson , MIN 50 36.7 23.1 11.0 1.6 .8 1.7 30 0
12 Shaquille O'Neal , PHX 75 30.0 17.8 8.4 1.7 .7 1.4 30 0
14 LeBron James , CLE 81 37.7 28.4 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 29 7
14 * Kevin Love , MIN 81 25.3 11.1 9.1 1.0 .4 .6 29 0
14 Steve Nash , PHX 74 33.6 15.7 3.0 9.7 .7 .1 29 0
14 Zach Randolph , LAC-NYK 50 35.1 20.8 10.1 2.1 .9 .3 29 0
14 David West , NOH 76 39.2 21.0 8.5 2.3 .6 .9 29 0
19 Andris Biedrins , GSW 62 30.0 11.9 11.2 2.0 1.0 1.5 28 0
19 Paul Millsap , UTA 76 30.1 13.5 8.6 1.8 1.0 1.0 28 0
19 Luis Scola , HOU 82 30.3 12.7 8.8 1.5 .8 .1 28 0
22 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL 81 37.7 25.9 8.4 2.4 .8 .8 26 0
23 Marcus Camby , LAC 62 31.1 10.3 11.1 2.0 .8 2.1 25 0
24 Mehmet Okur , UTA 72 33.5 17.0 7.7 1.7 .8 .7 23 0
25 Jose Calderon , TOR 68 34.3 12.8 2.9 8.9 1.1 .1 22 0
25 Kevin Garnett , BOS 57 31.1 15.8 8.5 2.5 1.1 1.2 22 0
27 Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 69 35.8 12.9 8.5 2.0 1.3 1.0 21 0
28 Udonis Haslem , MIA 75 34.1 10.6 8.2 1.1 .6 .3 20 0
28 Nene Hilario , DEN 77 32.6 14.6 7.8 1.4 1.2 1.3 20 0
28 Al Horford , ATL 67 33.5 11.5 9.3 2.4 .8 1.4 20 0
28 Josh Smith , ATL 69 35.1 15.6 7.2 2.4 1.4 1.6 20 0
28 Dwyane Wade , MIA 79 38.6 30.2 5.0 7.5 2.2 1.3 20 0
28 Gerald Wallace , CHA 71 37.6 16.6 7.8 2.7 1.7 .9 20 0
34 LaMarcus Aldridge , POR 81 37.1 18.1 7.5 1.9 1.0 1.0 19 0
34 Carlos Boozer , UTA 37 32.3 16.2 10.4 2.1 1.1 .2 19 0
34 Jason Kidd , DAL 81 35.6 9.0 6.2 8.7 2.0 .5 19 3
37 * Brook Lopez , NJN 82 30.5 13.0 8.1 1.0 .5 1.8 18 0
37 Lamar Odom , LAL 78 29.7 11.3 8.2 2.6 1.0 1.3 18 0
37 Tyrus Thomas , CHI 79 27.5 10.8 6.4 1.0 1.2 1.9 18 0
40 * Marc Gasol , MEM 82 30.7 11.9 7.4 1.7 .8 1.1 17 0
40 * Jason Thompson , SAC 82 28.1 11.1 7.4 1.1 .6 .7 17 0
42 Andrew Bogut , MIL 36 31.2 11.7 10.2 2.0 .6 1.0 16 0
42 Andrew Bynum , LAL 50 28.9 14.3 8.0 1.4 .4 1.8 16 0
42 Devin Harris , NJN 69 36.1 21.3 3.3 6.9 1.7 .2 16 0
42 Antonio McDyess , DET 62 30.1 9.6 9.8 1.3 .7 .8 16 0
42 Brad Miller , CHI-SAC 70 30.0 11.9 7.8 3.3 .7 .5 16 0
42 * Greg Oden , POR 61 21.5 8.9 7.0 .5 .4 1.1 16 0
42 Amar'e Stoudemire , PHX 53 36.8 21.4 8.1 2.0 .9 1.1 16 0
49 Tyson Chandler , NOH 45 32.1 8.8 8.7 .5 .3 1.2 15 0
49 Kevin Durant , OKC 74 39.0 25.3 6.5 2.8 1.3 .7 15 0
Displaying results 1-50 of 444 found
Results: 1-50 51-100 101-150 151-200 201-250 251-300 301-350 351-400 401-444 Next »



Do you understand what a parrot does?

Cuts and pastes someone else's list?

MrSparko
01-27-2010, 01:46 PM
I'd rather have Murphy over Randolph and uh......that's about it. Wow.

Brad8888
01-27-2010, 03:01 PM
I'd rather have Murphy over Randolph and uh......that's about it. Wow.

Or possibly Brad Miller because of his age, but otherwise obviously there are no ther players on the list who Murphy is even close to in skill level in any traditional sense.

Quite illustrative of how statistics can be used in a way that attempts to distort perceptions of reality.

gummy
01-27-2010, 04:38 PM
You lost me. I don't see anyone saying they like this lineup.

I'm not a fan of Roy playing less than 20 minutes. Nonetheless, I see that at least one player likes the small lineup:

Dahntay Jones in 1/26 IndyStar:
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100126/SPORTS04/1260353/1088/SPORTS04/Popular-small-lineup-produces-in-2nd-half

"We can cause matchup problems with our small lineup," Jones said. "The tempo changes when we have the small lineup. Everybody runs. Then they have to find out who they're going to guard. Who's their big man going to guard? And we take advantage of that. It's been a weapon of ours in the past, and I'm glad we got back to it."

So that pretty much answers the question of what DJones meant weeks ago when he basically said the team had a winning formula and went away from it. It doesn't really tell us whether he thinks Murph or Roy is the better big option though.

Sookie
01-27-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm not a fan of Roy playing less than 20 minutes. Nonetheless, I see that at least one player likes the small lineup:

Dahntay Jones in 1/26 IndyStar:
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100126/SPORTS04/1260353/1088/SPORTS04/Popular-small-lineup-produces-in-2nd-half

"We can cause matchup problems with our small lineup," Jones said. "The tempo changes when we have the small lineup. Everybody runs. Then they have to find out who they're going to guard. Who's their big man going to guard? And we take advantage of that. It's been a weapon of ours in the past, and I'm glad we got back to it."

So that pretty much answers the question of what DJones meant weeks ago when he basically said the team had a winning formula and went away from it. It doesn't really tell us whether he thinks Murph or Roy is the better big option though.

Except it does, because one of the players was playing during the win streak, and one wasn't. :P

However, I think DJones recognizes that the Pacers are better defensively with only one of them playing, rather than both..and probably takes that as a victory.

McKeyFan
01-27-2010, 05:19 PM
You know, that pretty sharp of JOS. Only took him two months to figure it out.

gummy
01-27-2010, 05:23 PM
Except it does, because one of the players was playing during the win streak, and one wasn't. :P


Yes, I thought about that and considered mentioning it. It gives us a rational basis for arguing he'd prefer Hibbert but it's not enough to be conclusive, imo. He has now said positive things about two different configurations of smaller lineups, one featuring more Hibbert (and no Murph) and one featuring more Murph (and less Hibbert).

JohnnyBGoode
01-27-2010, 06:15 PM
Cuts and pastes someone else's list?

Stats pal, not someone else's list. It seems your claim to fame is to parrot what ill imformed fans state about Murphy. Repeating the same bs over and over does not make it accurate.

JohnnyBGoode
01-27-2010, 06:18 PM
Or possibly Brad Miller because of his age, but otherwise obviously there are no ther players on the list who Murphy is even close to in skill level in any traditional sense.

Quite illustrative of how statistics can be used in a way that attempts to distort perceptions of reality.

If Murphy stats are distorted tell me why no other Pacer can average a double double? Play Roy for as many minutes as he can play and he won't even sniff averaging a double double.

Mr. Sobchak
01-27-2010, 06:35 PM
If Murphy stats are distorted tell me why no other Pacer can average a double double? Play Roy for as many minutes as he can play and he won't even sniff averaging a double double.

:bs::bs::bs:

I'd take Roy, his servicable defense, and 14-7 all day over Murph and his double double revolving door defense...Do you honestly think that if Murph wasn't on the court that our rebound average would take a hit? NEWS FLASH: Troy is 14th in the NBA in total rebounding but 73rd in ORPG... What does that tell you? Hell even Tyler averages more offensive boards than Troy in almost half the amount of minutes. Troy's rebounding abilities are severely overvalued by some of you...

jhondog28
01-27-2010, 06:36 PM
If Murphy stats are distorted tell me why no other Pacer can average a double double? Play Roy for as many minutes as he can play and he won't even sniff averaging a double double.

Cause Murphy steals their rebounds...sorry couldnt resist:devil:

BlueNGold
01-27-2010, 06:42 PM
The small line-up is only good because the T-Roy line-up is ridiculous. Seriously, there is no front-line in the league that slow.

The point here is that we limited the Sixers to under 100 points...something we've only done 2 other times this month. I'm sorry, but the idea that we won with better offensive flow is ludicrous. We won because we have a chance to defend when we have guys who can move. It really is that simple. Also, Granger is an incredible mismatch at the 4.

Anyway, just because JOb moved up from an F to a D student doesn't mean he's brilliant. Once he learns that the P in PF stands for Power....he may move up to a passing grade.

Brad8888
01-27-2010, 07:15 PM
If Murphy stats are distorted tell me why no other Pacer can average a double double? Play Roy for as many minutes as he can play and he won't even sniff averaging a double double.

OK, I'll play.

1. Because the way our offense is designed, the interior players are rarely called on to score, and when they are, it is generally several games before O'B believes that there are matchups that favor passing into the post area with that player in the lineup (Roy).

2. Because our players who ARE called on to score, besides Murphy, are pretty much the perimeter defenders who are supposed to get back and defend the perimeter players on the opposing teams, leaving them out of position for most boards

3. Murphy gets his rebounds for a combination of reasons -- that he is intended to be the last big down the floor for trailing threes is the biggest part of that, and he is not capable of actually being a physical post presence against the opponents bigs, leaving whoever is on the floor with him to box out while he judges what angle he thinks the ball is going to come off the rim at and positions himself accordingly without as much resistance from opposing bigs, and the fact that the O'B system dictates that when possible the big in the area of a rebound is supposed to be the one to get it while any player who is not a big in the same area is supposed to allow him to get the board while they sprint down the floor in hopes of receiving an outlet pass because he is our best outlet passer.

4. Murphy scores when his trailing threes fall, which they do at an astonishing rate for as poor as his shot is mechanically, but is easily shut down either due to fatigue or when the opposing team stations virtually anyone who is not a point guard within 6 feet of him. His arm motion when getting into his shot is very long, low, and slow, and often he doesn't release his shot until he is well past the peak of his jump, making him very vulnerable to even average defenders preventing his shots. A lot of teams wait to put anyone out to stop him until he shows them by making several shots that he is "feeling it" enough to offset the other advantages they have strategically when he is on the floor while they play the rest of the team 5 on 4 defensively and take a higher percentage of the rebounds on both ends of the floor than they do when he is not.

Yep, a double double machine is fantastic when he leads to team wide breakdowns on both ends of the floor, and would not play much for coaches who are not as enamored with the three as O'B.

Truly, I think one of the the best fits for him in the league would be Orlando because they already have a post presence in Howard who could make up for his deficiencies while they benefit from his threes because defenses have to sag on Howard while not relying on him for big minutes unless he is hot from the arc. He could be their ultimate replacement for having lost Turkoglu, actually.

DisapointedPacerFan
01-28-2010, 01:28 AM
Well O'Brien screwed up tonight by playing the small ball lineup against the Lakers. Murphy on Bynum...now what the hell is he thinking? Even Phil Jackson mentioned at the end of the game he was surprised we started with that matchup. What good did O'Brien think would come out of that? Bynum had 10 of their first 18 points in the game. Roy would'nt have done a whole lot better but he would have probably held his own...you can't put a 6'10" 245 lb white guy against a 7'0, 285 lb black dude. That is freaking elementary.

Peck
01-28-2010, 01:39 AM
Well O'Brien screwed up tonight by playing the small ball lineup against the Lakers. Murphy on Bynum...now what the hell is he thinking? Even Phil Jackson mentioned at the end of the game he was surprised we started with that matchup. What good did O'Brien think would come out of that? Bynum had 10 of their first 18 points in the game. Roy would'nt have done a whole lot better but he would have probably held his own...you can't put a 6'10" 245 lb white guy against a 7'0, 285 lb black dude. That is freaking elementary.

Oh for God's sake....:rolleyes:

DisapointedPacerFan
01-28-2010, 01:40 AM
:) lol.

And also the fact that Murphy can't play defense around the basket anyways. Makes it all that more fun to watch.

Doddage
01-28-2010, 03:41 AM
I'd rather have Murphy over Randolph and uh......that's about it. Wow.
Randolph is tearing it up this season actually and has led the Grizzlies to a 25-19 record, which is good for the 7th seed in the tougher Western Conference. If you've watched his play, then you know he's a big reason for that. Randolph clearly is more valuable than Murphy at this point.

jhondog28
01-28-2010, 09:36 AM
Well O'Brien screwed up tonight by playing the small ball lineup against the Lakers. Murphy on Bynum...now what the hell is he thinking? Even Phil Jackson mentioned at the end of the game he was surprised we started with that matchup. What good did O'Brien think would come out of that? Bynum had 10 of their first 18 points in the game. Roy would'nt have done a whole lot better but he would have probably held his own...you can't put a 6'10" 245 lb white guy against a 7'0, 285 lb black dude. That is freaking elementary.

My I get a double head palm please

McKeyFan
01-28-2010, 10:35 AM
you can't put a 6'10" 245 lb white guy against a 7'0, 285 lb black dude.

True. Kareem could never stop McHale down in the post.

90'sNBARocked
01-28-2010, 12:31 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/chat.asp?chat_topics_id=741&status=Inactive

luke w in :
what is the point of CAVS trade talks..they wont trade for any strech PF or anything they have the best record and have LEON POWE.Are they using scare tactics?


Tommy Beer:
Nah – they'd add a stud PF if they can get one.

I have heard rumblings that if they can add another big piece, Cavs management feels they may be able to get LeBron to sign extension this season. Do I believe that? No? I think Bron holds their feet to the fire as long as possible….

Still, I think the Cavs end up trading for Jamison before the deadline in February.

Z, Hickson and a pick for Jamison.



Man I hope Washington elects to keep Jameson

Trophy
01-28-2010, 12:44 PM
I'm sorry, but I think it's rediculous that everyone is making it seem Troy is isolated from the whole team.

A good fan hopes any player they have plays well for their team. At least we have someone who can rebound. I don't get what more everyone wants. Complaining he takes the ball from other players? I highly doubt he pulls the ball from the player's hand. He pulls it down and hands it off to a ball handler. If he were to step away from getting defensive rebounds, he'd be criticized for that.

Also, I like Mike and hope he becomes a better shooter again, but where are those complaints? He is not a consistent player like he used to be. Troy is consistent nearly every night. He's always getting double-doubles.

Hoping a player does well so another team can get him is just not being a good fan. Any person part of a team should hope the player does well for the team they are on. I understand if you don't care for how Troy plays or even if you don't like him as a guy, but he's still a Pacer and being a good fan is hoping he does well and appreciate the things he can do for the team.

McKeyFan
01-28-2010, 12:48 PM
I wish Troy well personally.

A trade to the Cavs would be great for all parties.

All anger re: Murphy has to do with JOS's use of him, not Troy himself, who has probably over achieved in light of his physical talent.

Anthem
01-28-2010, 12:49 PM
I wish Troy well personally.

A trade to the Cavs would be great for all parties.

All anger re: Murphy has to do with JOS's use of him, not Troy himself, who has probably over achieved in light of his physical talent.
All fair points.

Trophy
01-28-2010, 12:57 PM
I wish Troy well personally.

A trade to the Cavs would be great for all parties.

All anger re: Murphy has to do with JOS's use of him, not Troy himself, who has probably over achieved in light of his physical talent.

I think we would have a better rotation with Troy included if we had a coach that runs a different system or a more balanced system. If we had a coach that knows how to run both, I think we would do better and everyone would appreciate who we have.

So I can agree with what you're saying based on JOB and how he uses Troy in the system.

Bball
01-28-2010, 01:13 PM
I think Trophy has a point. Not that I wouldn't be fine with a Murphy trade but really what I want to see is him used differently in the first place. Just taking O'Brien's security blanket away isn't going to make him a better coach. I'd rather see O'Brien gone first and foremost, then start reshuffling players.

CableKC
01-28-2010, 01:21 PM
Also, I like Mike and hope he becomes a better shooter again, but where are those complaints? He is not a consistent player like he used to be. Troy is consistent nearly every night. He's always getting double-doubles.
It's not as prevelant with Dunleavy....but it's not like Dunleavy escapes the wrath of PD Posters....check out the Lakers In-Game and Post Game threads. When Dunleavy's shot isn't dropping.....many of us would have no problem pulling him in favor of Luther.

Hicks
01-28-2010, 02:03 PM
Dunleavy would get a lot more wrath if Jim was as stubborn about starting him as he is starting Troy.

Could you imagine this '10 version of Dunleavy starting at the TWO? :shudder:

Trophy
01-28-2010, 04:47 PM
I wonder everyone's opinion would on who they would rather have gone. Troy Murphy or Jim O'Brien?

We can become a better team if we had a head coach that uses a good rotation that's balanced and also a coach that almost forces the players to defend.

Troy's never actually had a defensive head coach to work under. Don Nelson and Jim O'Brien are both big on the 3 point shooting and hardly on big men post defense. He tries to defend and I think there's just a small piece that's missing from it which is being able to move his feet and body up in the post not letting the opposing player in. His defense on other taller big men is good though. I think if we brought in one or brought in defensive assistants, it can help him learn to defend where a PF should. It would balance out with his style of play.

If that were to happen, he would get respect on PD.

Psycho T
01-28-2010, 05:15 PM
It seems to me that he is saying " We cant win unless we get 3 points while they get 2 points ".

Sookie
01-28-2010, 05:26 PM
I wonder everyone's opinion would on who they would rather have gone. Troy Murphy or Jim O'Brien?

We can become a better team if we had a head coach that uses a good rotation that's balanced and also a coach that almost forces the players to defend.

Troy's never actually had a defensive head coach to work under. Don Nelson and Jim O'Brien are both big on the 3 point shooting and hardly on big men post defense. He tries to defend and I think there's just a small piece that's missing from it which is being able to move his feet and body up in the post not letting the opposing player in. His defense on other taller big men is good though. I think if we brought in one or brought in defensive assistants, it can help him learn to defend where a PF should. It would balance out with his style of play.

If that were to happen, he would get respect on PD.

Troy Murphy by a mile.

I posted a while ago, I don't think people dislike Troy..they just dislike how often he's used.

Troy could be a good player off the bench, like Luther could be. Come in, spark the offense. A few minutes..heck..if we need points at the end of the game..sure play him...and depending on matchups ect..

He's not a 35 MPG starter. He has limitations on what he's capable of doing defensively. He has limitations offensively as well. You need to have a certain combination of players on the floor to limit his deficiencies..but that doesn't change the fact that he COULD be a nice player to have, if used correctly.

jhondog28
01-28-2010, 05:29 PM
i think the biggest problem is that we are not sure what to like about this team. In the past the team played hard and won games not because they weer talented but because they played harder than the other team. This year the team does not show that type of desire. Granger has not been himself, Dun neither, and Murphy has been himself but because the team is not winning we can target him. JOB has been for a lack of a better word clueless about what to do to make this team win. I think the team and organization as a whole is in such dissaray that as a fan there is so much to judge and question. If I was to rank in order where the blame is supposed to go it would be as follows:

1. Front office
2. JOB
3. Training Staff
4. Murphy
5. Ford
6. Dunleavy

Brad8888
01-28-2010, 06:20 PM
I wonder everyone's opinion would on who they would rather have gone. Troy Murphy or Jim O'Brien?

We can become a better team if we had a head coach that uses a good rotation that's balanced and also a coach that almost forces the players to defend.

Troy's never actually had a defensive head coach to work under. Don Nelson and Jim O'Brien are both big on the 3 point shooting and hardly on big men post defense. He tries to defend and I think there's just a small piece that's missing from it which is being able to move his feet and body up in the post not letting the opposing player in. His defense on other taller big men is good though. I think if we brought in one or brought in defensive assistants, it can help him learn to defend where a PF should. It would balance out with his style of play.

If that were to happen, he would get respect on PD.

Murphy, because O'B would be forced to get somewhat more traditional with his approach and we would no longer play someone at center who is as much of a liability defensively as Murphy is when he is playing center (or anywhere in general), and we would have one fewer reason to have a big "stretching the floor" and destroying our offensive continuity.

d_c
01-28-2010, 06:33 PM
3. Training Staff


There are plenty of teams league wide who have had more injury issues than the Pacers.

Guys like Granger, Dunleavy and Hansbrough had known issues in some form or another before the Pacers ever acquired them.

jhondog28
01-28-2010, 06:59 PM
There are plenty of teams league wide who have had more injury issues than the Pacers.

Guys like Granger, Dunleavy and Hansbrough had known issues in some form or another before the Pacers ever acquired them.

My issue is not with their skill my issue is with the timing issues that they want to get the players back out onto the floor. The players get back out on the floor and seem to get reinjured very quickly. Hey I ranked them behind JOB and Front office. I just think there is a problem there. MPO

BlueNGold
01-28-2010, 10:40 PM
It seems to me that he is saying " We cant win unless we get 3 points while they get 2 points ".

Ah, mathematics. If only it were that simple...I do believe everyone would be doing it. ...and at this stage our record indicates that it does not lead to anywhere good.

The bottom line is: It's a failed strategy.

BTW, even Bird himself said he didn't care for quick 3's....but that's exactly what we see....if the opportunity is there, it gets launched. It's a very strange trip...

ChicagoJ
01-29-2010, 10:27 AM
I wonder everyone's opinion would on who they would rather have gone. Troy Murphy or Jim O'Brien?

O'Brien.

But I'd expect a new coach to use Murphy in a much more limited role - first big off the bench would be a much better way to use him.

I'd like to say he could be this generations' Sam Perkins, but his post defense would have to get much, much, much better to earn that compliment.

Unclebuck
01-29-2010, 10:40 AM
Dunleavy would get a lot more wrath if Jim was as stubborn about starting him as he is starting Troy.



I am a huge fan of Dunleavy and not a fan of Murphy. but don't you think that Murphy has played much better than Mike and don't you think Murphy deserves time based on his play which IMO has been pretty good. I don't want to get into the semantics of whether he should start. But I know if I were coaching this current Pacers team and if I were trying to save my job (and believe me Jim is doing just that) I would be playing Murphy between 25-28 minutes per game. If someone asks me why I am playing Murph I would respond with who else we got? What choice do I have. At least at Mike's position we have other choices plus Mike hasn't played as well as Troy

ChicagoJ
01-29-2010, 10:51 AM
If I'm coaching the Pacers and trying to save my job, I'm experimenting with Solo and Josh in the front court. When somone asks me why I am tinkering so much, I would respond with "what else can I do? The guy who puts up the best individual numbers has an awful plus-minus and is a terrible defender, so I'm trying to see what else I've got because it can't be any worse."

Do I really think Solo and Josh are the answer? No. But I've also got to let management know that - especially when Tyler is out - we're really, really, really bad at the PF position.

Unclebuck
01-29-2010, 11:22 AM
If I'm coaching the Pacers and trying to save my job, I'm experimenting with Solo and Josh in the front court. When somone asks me why I am tinkering so much, I would respond with "what else can I do? The guy who puts up the best individual numbers has an awful plus-minus and is a terrible defender, so I'm trying to see what else I've got because it can't be any worse."



I made this point yesterday. The stat that Murph's +/- is the worst on the team is mainly due to his early season games. if you look at the trends - the last 10 games, Murphy has a better plus/minus than Roy, Solo. AJ, Brandon, Luther, TJ. (what they go by must be the last 10 games each player has played. So probably in another couple of weeks, Troy will not be last anymore.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22009&split=22&team=Pacers

ChicagoJ
01-29-2010, 11:30 AM
Even if he's not last, he's still got an awful +/-.

But as you know, I greatly prefer five-man +/- to individual +/- anyway.

I'd like to know the difference between Watson/ Rush/ Jones/ Granger/ Hibbert and Watson/ Rush/ Jones/ Granger/ Murphy.

Hicks
01-29-2010, 11:37 AM
I am a huge fan of Dunleavy and not a fan of Murphy. but don't you think that Murphy has played much better than Mike and don't you think Murphy deserves time based on his play which IMO has been pretty good. I don't want to get into the semantics of whether he should start. But I know if I were coaching this current Pacers team and if I were trying to save my job (and believe me Jim is doing just that) I would be playing Murphy between 25-28 minutes per game. If someone asks me why I am playing Murph I would respond with who else we got? What choice do I have. At least at Mike's position we have other choices plus Mike hasn't played as well as Troy

I see Murphy is averaging over 31 minutes per game.

I'd prefer to drop 10 of those minutes, and give them to McRoberts. I'm not part of the McBob fan club in that I don't see this "future potential" just waiting to be tapped, but I'm also not down on him, and I appreciate what I think he does well now, and I think in small bursts he could really help because he's such a contrast to Troy in terms of mobility, leaping, and defense.

I think his game is better for the rest of this team (especially if I stopped trying to win Jim's way) than Troy, even though in a vacuum Troy is the better player.

At this moment, off the top of my head and with the current health of the roster, I'd probably do this:

AJ 24 minutes, Watson 24 minutes.
Rush 30 minutes, Head 18 minutes
Danny 36 minutes, Dahntay 12 minutes
McRoberts 16 minutes, Murphy 20 minutes, Solomon 12 minutes
Hibbert 30 minutes, McRoberts 14 minutes, Solomon 4 minutes

I think Mike is what he is this year, and that's not a good player.

If/when Tyler gets over that damned ear infection, my 4/5 would be:

McRoberts 12 minutes, Tyler 24 minutes, Murphy 12 minutes
Hibbert 30 minutes, McRoberts 12 minutes, Solomon 6 minutes

I'd make sure within those 4/5 minutes to have Roy and Troy playing together as little as possible.

If you run appropriate plays/sets for these starters, you can get a good amount of scoring by using combinations of all of these guys, obviously and especially everyone but Josh. No more live and die by the read/react/chuck offense.

I'd look to Troy to be a big burst of production off the bench. On more than a few occasions, I've seen him grab a lot of numbers before he first sits down on the bench (like 67+% of his night's final stats), and unless he would just go into a funk because he's not the starter, I think he could give you pretty high production in 20 minutes.

I'd be slowing the pace to a moderate one, and I'd re-emphasize burning more energy on defense.

I wouldn't be allergic to going small, but it'd be a side show, not the main act. If I did, I certainly wouldn't use Troy at the 5 unless forced to do so.

Mix it up, lean on Danny and Roy, and accept that you're still not that good of a team (this year), you're not suddenly going to win .700 of your games, and that's just the way it is.

This is all half-baked, so I hope I don't get interrogated about this post, but at a glance (or two), this is generally what I would want if I were the coach.

BillS
01-29-2010, 11:51 AM
I see Murphy is averaging over 31 minutes per game.

I'd prefer to drop 10 of those minutes, and give them to McRoberts. I'm not part of the McBob fan club in that I don't see this "future potential" just waiting to be tapped, but I'm also not down on him, and I appreciate what I think he does well now, and I think in small bursts he could really help because he's such a contrast to Troy in terms of mobility, leaping, and defense.

:
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This is all half-baked, so I hope I don't get interrogated about this post, but at a glance (or two), this is generally what I would want if I were the coach.

I'm on with most of this. I think the important thing is to put players on the court who are fighting to win, and I suspect minutes for Josh would help with that.

It isn't even so much the fact of winning as the perception of being in the hunt. Benching Troy is a bad move, using him less is good.

Hicks
01-29-2010, 01:50 PM
If Murphy and Roy together wasn't such a defensive disaster, I would keep Troy in the starting lineup, but I can't do that, so I have to choose, and it's an easy choice between Roy and Troy, IMO.