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vnzla81
01-23-2010, 04:45 PM
this was posted this morning on Indystar.com

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100123/SPORTS04/1230330/1004/SPORTS/Pacers-might-trade-T.J.-Ford

Former starting point guard has not played since Dec. 30 as Watson and rookie Price get playing time

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- The Indiana Pacers might look to trade point guard T.J. Ford before the end of the season.
The starter earlier in the season, Ford has been benched and has not played since Dec. 30.

Asked before the Pacers' game against the Pistons on Friday night if a trade this season is a possibility, Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said, "I don't think there's any doubt.
"He's a quality point guard. He could really help another franchise. It's not my decision to say what Larry decides, but certainly, I think we'd be open-minded."
The final decision on a trade would be made by Pacers president Larry Bird.
The NBA trading deadline is Feb. 18. Ford makes $8.5 million this year and has a player option for $8.5 million next season.
Since Jan. 1, O'Brien has elected to go with Earl Watson as the starter and rookie A.J. Price as the backup.
"He's the third point guard in our rotation," O'Brien said of Ford. "We like what Earl is giving us at the starting position, and we're trying to grow a rookie.
"We think we have a guy in A.J. Price that is going to be a very solid long-term point guard for us, and we wanted to make sure we knew exactly where he was."
Ford, a 6-foot point guard with career averages of 12.1 points and 6.3 rebounds in six years in the NBA, is averaging 9.9 points and 3.6 assists this season.

jhondog28
01-23-2010, 04:52 PM
Well I am glad the media outlets are printing the obvious stuff that all the fans already knew about. Sheesh!

sportfireman
01-23-2010, 05:28 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=50135

jeffg-body
01-23-2010, 07:44 PM
Anyone know of any teams that might be a taker for TJ?

Pacersfan46
01-23-2010, 07:47 PM
Anyone know of any teams that might be a taker for TJ?

Hopefully Cleveland with the Mo Williams injury. Doubt it though.

-- Steve --

Anthem
01-23-2010, 07:51 PM
"He's the third point guard in our rotation," O'Brien said of Ford.
Is this true? Hasn't Luther Head gotten a few minutes at point? Wouldn't that make TJ the fourth string?

MillerTime
01-23-2010, 07:52 PM
Hopefully Cleveland with the Mo Williams injury. Doubt it though.

-- Steve --

They already have West and Gibson...and MO is only out for 4 - 6 weeks

LoneGranger33
01-23-2010, 07:52 PM
Is this true? Hasn't Luther Head gotten a few minutes at point? Wouldn't that make TJ the fourth string?

Well ****, since Ford's been benched even Diener's gotten in a couple times.

cinotimz
01-23-2010, 08:08 PM
this was posted this morning on Indystar.com

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100123/SPORTS04/1230330/1004/SPORTS/Pacers-might-trade-T.J.-Ford

Former starting point guard has not played since Dec. 30 as Watson and rookie Price get playing time

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- The Indiana Pacers might look to trade point guard T.J. Ford before the end of the season.
The starter earlier in the season, Ford has been benched and has not played since Dec. 30.

Asked before the Pacers' game against the Pistons on Friday night if a trade this season is a possibility, Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said, "I don't think there's any doubt.
"He's a quality point guard. He could really help another franchise. It's not my decision to say what Larry decides, but certainly, I think we'd be open-minded."
The final decision on a trade would be made by Pacers president Larry Bird.
The NBA trading deadline is Feb. 18. Ford makes $8.5 million this year and has a player option for $8.5 million next season.
Since Jan. 1, O'Brien has elected to go with Earl Watson as the starter and rookie A.J. Price as the backup.
"He's the third point guard in our rotation," O'Brien said of Ford. "We like what Earl is giving us at the starting position, and we're trying to grow a rookie.
"We think we have a guy in A.J. Price that is going to be a very solid long-term point guard for us, and we wanted to make sure we knew exactly where he was."
Ford, a 6-foot point guard with career averages of 12.1 points and 6.3 rebounds in six years in the NBA, is averaging 9.9 points and 3.6 assists this season.

This is the NBA version of a classified ad.

For Sale. 6-foot point guard with career averages of 12.1 and 6.3.

Will accept any reasonable offer. Maybe even an unreasonable one.

DaveP63
01-23-2010, 08:26 PM
Krevenza in the New South Wales recreational league? I hear we could get a flat of lettuce and and two pints of ale...

maragin
01-23-2010, 10:11 PM
I could be reading way too far into this, but if he hasn't played 1 second in 2010, could there be something in his contract related to a performance bonus? Something like an incentive to be healthy and play in games or whatever. (Play X minutes in 2010, get Y dollars)

Like I said, probably reading way to far into this, but the Pacers have made some shrewd accounting-type decisions.

Smoothdave1
01-23-2010, 10:25 PM
Anyone know of any teams that might be a taker for TJ?

Lakers are supposedly looking for a point. A deal involving Ford & Solo or Diener for Morrison & Vujacic or Walton works. Pacers and Lakers both gain cap space with Diener and Morrison being expirings. We'd still have Vujacic for next season and Walton for a few more seasons, though.

Will Galen
01-23-2010, 10:48 PM
It was reported earlier this season that the Pacers had been trying to trade Ford for the last two years and hadn't found any takers. So my question is why is the Star so far behind?

DGPR
01-23-2010, 10:49 PM
Lakers are supposedly looking for a point. A deal involving Ford & Solo or Diener for Morrison & Vujacic or Walton works. Pacers and Lakers both gain cap space with Diener and Morrison being expirings. We'd still have Vujacic for next season and Walton for a few more seasons, though.


I believe the triangle offense requires a strong 3 point shooting point guard so the Lakers will probably pass on TJ.

CableKC
01-23-2010, 11:14 PM
This is the NBA version of a classified ad.

For Sale. 6-foot point guard with career averages of 12.1 and 6.3.

Will accept any reasonable offer. Maybe even an unreasonable one.
Yeah.....this article says nothing that we probably didn't suspect on our own.....Bird is trying to move Ford? Before the end of the season? Really? Haven't we known that TPTB have been trying to move Ford for-what-seems-like-an-eternity ( or over the last 1.5 seasons )?

pwee31
01-23-2010, 11:25 PM
then again.. they might not

Naptown_Seth
01-23-2010, 11:49 PM
Well I am glad the media outlets are printing the obvious stuff that all the fans already knew about. Sheesh!
In other news, the Pacers are scouting players projected to go in the top 5 and are hoping to land a pick good enough to get one of them.

vnzla81
01-23-2010, 11:55 PM
In other news, the Pacers are scouting players projected to go in the top 5 and are hoping to land a pick good enough to get one of them.

how you know that?:p

KnicksRGarbage
01-24-2010, 03:45 AM
It was reported earlier this season that the Pacers had been trying to trade Ford for the last two years and hadn't found any takers. So my question is why is the Star so far behind?

My question is why would there be any takers NOW?
If I have my house on the market over 2 yrs and there are nooo takers.. i start to just wanna say :censored: it! This isnt gonna happen... Especially with TJ contract too.




In other news, the Pacers are scouting players projected to go in the top 5 and are hoping to land a pick good enough to get one of them.

And with that top 5 pick the Indiana Pacers would select a man with the same talent and skills as Primoz Brezec.

thelostpacer
01-24-2010, 05:08 AM
tj ford will be traded with pg dropping like flys it possiable

Pacersfan46
01-24-2010, 06:10 AM
They already have West and Gibson...and MO is only out for 4 - 6 weeks

West is injured now.

And 6 weeks is a long time to missing your starting PG when you're trying to ensure you have the home court advantage through the playoffs.

-- Steve --

Pacerized
01-24-2010, 12:07 PM
Bird's comments make me wonder if he is trying to force TJ's hand on his player option. He has the chance to walk away as a free agent or stay here knowing he won't play.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/64239/20100124/ford_wants_to_play_will_welcome_trade/

Pacers point guard T.J. Ford is fine with the possibility of being traded prior to next month's deadline.

Ford hasn't played since Dec. 30 as Indiana coach Jim O'Brien has used Earl Watson as his starter and rookie A.J. Prince as his backup.

"The ball's in their court," Ford said when asked about a possible deal. "Definitely, I want to play. If I'm not going to play here, if I can go somewhere else and play, then of course."

Pacers president Larry Bird said Saturday night that he's "not looking to trade T.J."

Regardless, Ford understands that the NBA is a business.

"It's a business," Ford said. "It is what it is. I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to do since I'm still on the roster. I'm healthy. I still get my workouts in, my conditioning in. I stay ready.

"If they trade me, they'll trade me on their own will and power. I haven't said anything. I'm just doing what I'm supposed to be doing."

Ford makes $8.5 million this season and has a player option for $8.5 million next year.

"I want to compete. I want to play. I don't want to sit out," he said. "I know I have a lot of game left. There's no doubt in my mind about that. It's just circumstances."

PaceBalls
01-24-2010, 12:39 PM
Pacers president Larry Bird said Saturday night that he's "not looking to trade T.J."

So does that mean he is going to fire the coach? If not, why wouldn't he be looking to trade TJ? Just what the heck are you doing Larry Bird?

vnzla81
01-24-2010, 12:42 PM
Pacers president Larry Bird said Saturday night that he's "not looking to trade T.J."

So does that mean he is going to fire the coach? If not, why wouldn't he be looking to trade TJ?

Because he is maybe expecting him not to pick his option and that could give the pacers some cap space for next year.

Can anybody tell me how much cap space could the pacers have if TJ does not pick his option and they trade Murphy for an expiring?

PaceBalls
01-24-2010, 12:48 PM
Because he is maybe expecting him not to pick his option and that could give the pacers some cap space for next year.

Can anybody tell me how much cap space could the pacers have if TJ does not pick his option and they trade Murphy for an expiring?

First of all, they wouldn't be that underhanded with a player. They would try to trade him.

Secondly no way TJ passes up that huge paycheck. Who throws away millions of dollars? Especially a guy who already looked like he was just livin the dream and didn't really care in the first place.

Just doesn't make sense. Why would a Wookie live on Endor?

pwee31
01-24-2010, 12:49 PM
I hope Bird is not dumb enough to hope a player like Tj Ford doesn't pick up an 8.5 million dollar option!?

I understand that players want to play and compete, but you're getting paid 8.5 million dollars to practice. Why do not it another half a season, b/c he'll be traded by next year's deadline as an expiring if not.

I hope Bird is just trying to get some leverage before the deadline in hopes of getting some type of value for Ford

ksuttonjr76
01-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Personally, I hope that Bird trades him just so he can play somewhere else. IMHO, I don't think he deserved to be benched entirely. From what I've seen of him, he's a good ball player in the wrong system, and he hasn't have any "character" problems that I'm aware of. It wasn't like he was the 2nd coming of Tinsley on and off the court. JOB, at least give the man some garbage PT.

Slick Pinkham
01-24-2010, 12:53 PM
Pacers president Larry Bird said Saturday night that he's "not looking to trade T.J."



Pacers ex-president Donnie Walsh once said that he's "not looking to trade Jalen Rose" about 3 minutes before it happened.

vnzla81
01-24-2010, 01:03 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100124/SPORTS04/1240372/1088/SPORTS04/T.J.-Ford-just-wants-to-play


T.J. Ford just wants to play


T.J. Ford is approaching the possibility he could be traded by the Indiana Pacers in the next month as part of the business of the NBA.
The starting point guard earlier in the season, Ford has been benched and hasn't played since Dec. 30 as Pacers coach Jim O'Brien has elected to go with Earl Watson as the starter and rookie A.J. Price as the backup.



"The ball's in their court," Ford said when asked what he thought about a trade possibly coming before the end of the season. "Definitely, I want to play. If I'm not going to play here, if I can go somewhere else and play, then of course."
Before Friday's game in Detroit, O'Brien was asked if there is a possibility the Pacers could move Ford before the Feb. 18 trading deadline.
"I don't think there's any doubt," O'Brien said. "He's a quality point guard. He could really help another franchise."
Ford said he has not discussed a trade with Pacers management -- "I'm not looking to trade T.J.,'' Pacers president Larry Bird said Saturday night -- and hasn't been told his benching is for the rest of the season.
"It's a business," Ford said. "It is what it is. I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to do since I'm still on the roster. I'm healthy. I still get my workouts in, my conditioning in. I stay ready.
"If they trade me, they'll trade me on their own will and power. I haven't said anything. I'm just doing what I'm supposed to be doing."
Ford makes $8.5 million this season and has a player option for $8.5 million next year.
The 6-foot point guard is averaging 9.9 points and 3.6 assists this year. He has career averages of 12.1 points and 6.3 assists in six seasons with Milwaukee, Toronto and the Pacers.
The Naismith and Wooden national college Player of the Year after leading Texas to a Final Four appearance, Ford has been the starting point guard on three playoff teams, once with Milwaukee and twice with Toronto, the last in 2008 before he was traded to the Pacers.
"I want to compete. I want to play. I don't want to sit out," he said. "I know I have a lot of game left. There's no doubt in my mind about that. It's just circumstances."

vnzla81
01-24-2010, 01:10 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=15074


Cavs Trading for a Point Guard?

With Mo Williams out for the next four to six weeks with his shoulder injury, and with Delonte West's finger officially broken and his own return timetable questionable, it's no surprise that some are starting to wonder whether or not this slew of injuries could alter Cleveland's trade deadline plans. For weeks we've heard that players like Troy Murphy or Antawn Jamison were the objects of the Cavaliers' affection because the team's biggest need was depth (especially offensive depth) at the power forward position. Do these injuries change things a bit? Will the Cavaliers use one of their attractive expiring contracts to pursue some depth at the point guard spot instead?

It's a legitimate question, and there are certainly enough point guards rumored to be available to make something happen. T.J. Ford, Kirk Hinrich, Andre Miller, Jordan Farmar, and Jose Calderon all are very notable players to have seen their names smattered all over trade rumors in recent weeks, and teams like Chicago and Indiana would especially enjoy the prospect of big-time cap space should a move return Zydrunas Ilgauskas or Shaquille O'Neal. By the deadline, teams have already paid players about 72% of their contracts for the season, so moving an aged, expensive center in mid-February is nowhere near as difficult as moving one back in November.

speakout4
01-24-2010, 01:13 PM
I hope Bird is not dumb enough to hope a player like Tj Ford doesn't pick up an 8.5 million dollar option!?

I understand that players want to play and compete, but you're getting paid 8.5 million dollars to practice. Why do not it another half a season, b/c he'll be traded by next year's deadline as an expiring if not.

I hope Bird is just trying to get some leverage before the deadline in hopes of getting some type of value for Ford
TJ won't play again for the pacers. If no trade he will be bought out just like Tinsley was at whatever the mutual acceptable rate. He will be able to latch on to another team next season and will lose very little of his 8.5M.

It's just stupid that when TPTB decide they don't want a player he gets 0 time instead of letting him play 12th man mop up minutes. LB and JOB have a unique way of dealing with these players that so far doesn't seem to be successful and further I don't think that their strategy appears to the rest of the team to be player friendly.

odeez
01-24-2010, 02:33 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100124/SPORTS04/1240372/1088/SPORTS04/T.J.-Ford-just-wants-to-play


Ford said he has not discussed a trade with Pacers management -- "I'm not looking to trade T.J.,'' Pacers president Larry Bird said Saturday night -- and hasn't been told his benching is for the rest of the season.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100123/SPORTS04/1230330/1088/SPORTS04/Pacers-might-trade-T.J.-Ford


Asked before the Pacers' game against the Pistons on Friday night if a trade this season is a possibility, Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said, "I don't think there's any doubt.

The above quotes are the most interesting in contrast to each other. Though speaking with one voice would be nice.

The bottom line you either play TJ or trade him, you simply can't sit on 8.5 million. We sat TINS, and I thought that was crazy, but necessary. Birds comments are interesting about not trading Ford. Then what are we doing? If your not going to trade him, then play him. I don't see his trade value improving, by not playing him.

I of course would rather see Price out there than Ford, but not if we are going to sit him the whole year and waste more cap. It just doesn't make sense to waste the money. But ultimately this is all just a waiting game and a game of politics. Looking forward to the end of the 2011 season. It is better to take their quotes (Bird & JOB) with a grain of salt.

ksuttonjr76
01-24-2010, 02:43 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100124/SPORTS04/1240372/1088/SPORTS04/T.J.-Ford-just-wants-to-play



http://www.indystar.com/article/20100123/SPORTS04/1230330/1088/SPORTS04/Pacers-might-trade-T.J.-Ford



The above quotes are the most interesting in contrast to each other. Though speaking with one voice would be nice.

The bottom line you either play TJ or trade him, you simply can't sit on 8.5 million. We sat TINS, and I thought that was crazy, but necessary. Birds comments are interesting about not trading Ford. Then what are we doing? If your not going to trade him, then play him. I don't see his trade value improving, by not playing him.

I of course would rather see Price out there than Ford, but not if we are going to sit him the whole year and waste more cap. It just doesn't make sense to waste the money. But ultimately this is all just a waiting game and a game of politics. Looking forward to the end of the 2011 season. It is better to take their quotes (Bird & JOB) with a grain of salt.

Honestly, not playing Tinsley was an understandable situation. He was hurting the image of the franchise, and he was more hurt than healed anyways. Ford is neither one of these things, and has been professional about the whole benching. I'm just not a fine of benching players of considerable (argubly) talent, if they're not being a negative influence on the team in general. However, you're correct that it is a waste of money.

tadscout
01-24-2010, 02:47 PM
First of all, they wouldn't be that underhanded with a player. They would try to trade him.

Secondly no way TJ passes up that huge paycheck. Who throws away millions of dollars? Especially a guy who already looked like he was just livin the dream and didn't really care in the first place.

Just doesn't make sense. Why would a Wookie live on Endor?

Well a player could pass up all that money if they believe it would cripple their career sitting on the bench seeing no play time for a whole year... b/c losing 1 year at 8.5 is less than multiple years worth at least couple million each...

ksuttonjr76
01-24-2010, 02:58 PM
Well a player could pass up all that money if they believe it would cripple their career sitting on the bench seeing no play time for a whole year... b/c losing 1 year at 8.5 is less than multiple years worth at least couple million each...

As a player and competitor, I would rather pass up the money, and resign with a different team, so I could play. Of course, he could play at the local college/YMCA, but I doubt he'll find the level of competition that he's looking for. Some people tend to believe that NBA players only want the money, but not play. However, I will agree that most NBA players do tend to overvalue their worth though.

tadscout
01-24-2010, 03:04 PM
As a player and competitor, I would rather pass up the money, and resign with a different team, so I could play. Of course, he could play at the local college/YMCA, but I doubt he'll find the level of competition that he's looking for. Some people tend to believe that NBA players only want the money, but not play. However, I will agree that most NBA players do tend to overvalue their worth though.

Well, if he overrates his value that help us in him opting out, b/c that makes him more likely to opt out thinking he can get a a btter deal than he actually could (like thinking he could get a 8 mil deal spread over 2 years or something...) :p

tadscout
01-24-2010, 03:11 PM
I also want to add that I think Bird's comments may just be to squash expectations knowing he has little chance to find a taker for Ford... With the blitz of star attention to this, I think it was just his way of not getting fans hopes up if no Ford deals are found...

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2010, 08:46 PM
Forcing him to not pick up a player option would cause real issues with the union and his teammates. He'd have to be historically unpleasant for his teammates to accept that kind of treatment without resenting it.


I was for them pulling TJ as the starting PG and I don't even mind some DNPs, but this is now getting a bit silly. Unless something serious happened behind the scenes then there is no way he's THIS disruptive on the court. I don't get all the black and white choices, and it was similar with Rush, Roy, Price, DJones, Josh, etc. Either they are ready to do everything or they can't be played at all.

Some nights, sure. Matchups and who is hot impact that, but teams that go down by 20-30 points usually do go deep to the bench just to fire things up. What's the risk, TJ scores 14 quick points and the fans like him? Oh no. Doesn't mean you must put him back at starting PG.




I agree that the quotes from Bird and JOB seem to be going in two different directions. This situation is just so weird.

Brad8888
01-24-2010, 11:09 PM
I agree that the quotes from Bird and JOB seem to be going in two different directions. This situation is just so weird.

Good cop, bad cop, OR one hand doesn't know what the other is doing with respect to the media?

Likely a case of casting doubt for the purposes of keeping everyone off balance in the thick of trading season, actually.

BRushWithDeath
01-25-2010, 12:41 AM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=15074


Cavs Trading for a Point Guard?

With Mo Williams out for the next four to six weeks with his shoulder injury, and with Delonte West's finger officially broken and his own return timetable questionable, it's no surprise that some are starting to wonder whether or not this slew of injuries could alter Cleveland's trade deadline plans. For weeks we've heard that players like Troy Murphy or Antawn Jamison were the objects of the Cavaliers' affection because the team's biggest need was depth (especially offensive depth) at the power forward position. Do these injuries change things a bit? Will the Cavaliers use one of their attractive expiring contracts to pursue some depth at the point guard spot instead?

It's a legitimate question, and there are certainly enough point guards rumored to be available to make something happen. T.J. Ford, Kirk Hinrich, Andre Miller, Jordan Farmar, and Jose Calderon all are very notable players to have seen their names smattered all over trade rumors in recent weeks, and teams like Chicago and Indiana would especially enjoy the prospect of big-time cap space should a move return Zydrunas Ilgauskas or Shaquille O'Neal. By the deadline, teams have already paid players about 72% of their contracts for the season, so moving an aged, expensive center in mid-February is nowhere near as difficult as moving one back in November.

I would slap my own mother out of joy if we could trade T.J. Ford and Troy Murphy for Shaq.

Brad8888
01-25-2010, 10:24 AM
I would slap my own mother out of joy if we could trade T.J. Ford and Troy Murphy for Shaq.

I'm not sure. While that would be great for our franchise and its future going forward, it also would surely be a sign that either the End of Days is nigh, or that he77 has become FAR chillier.

Tom White
01-25-2010, 10:43 AM
Forcing him to not pick up a player option would cause real issues with the union and his teammates. He'd have to be historically unpleasant for his teammates to accept that kind of treatment without resenting it.


I was for them pulling TJ as the starting PG and I don't even mind some DNPs, but this is now getting a bit silly. Unless something serious happened behind the scenes then there is no way he's THIS disruptive on the court. I don't get all the black and white choices, and it was similar with Rush, Roy, Price, DJones, Josh, etc. Either they are ready to do everything or they can't be played at all.

Some nights, sure. Matchups and who is hot impact that, but teams that go down by 20-30 points usually do go deep to the bench just to fire things up. What's the risk, TJ scores 14 quick points and the fans like him? Oh no. Doesn't mean you must put him back at starting PG.




I agree that the quotes from Bird and JOB seem to be going in two different directions. This situation is just so weird.

The parts I've bolded are part of what concerns me. Are other players on the team shaking their heads and thinking "Man, if they treat him that way, they might treat me that way, too.". I could understand it if the way they are dealing with TJ gives other guys concern about how the Pacers deal with their players.

BillS
01-25-2010, 11:18 AM
My question is why would there be any takers NOW?
If I have my house on the market over 2 yrs and there are nooo takers.. i start to just wanna say :censored: it! This isnt gonna happen... Especially with TJ contract too.

Naah. You stage it. I think TJ would look pretty good with a fresh coat of paint, a little less clutter, and a new sofa and breakfast table.

Brad8888
01-25-2010, 11:19 AM
The parts I've bolded are part of what concerns me. Are other players on the team shaking their heads and thinking "Man, if they treat him that way, they might treat me that way, too.". I could understand it if the way they are dealing with TJ gives other guys concern about how the Pacers deal with their players.

It also probably makes other players on other teams wonder if they would want to come here to play, unless they just want to collect their paycheck for riding the pine, or not even needing to come to games.

I would guess that there are those who probably would not mind in the least doing exactly that, but most players would shy away from a situation where players who follow their coaches offensive plan (though in the extreme in Tinsley's case when Tinsley was figuratively giving the middle finger salute to O'B in the Phoenix game) can be made to look bad to the rest of the league due to benchings of the type that seem to regularly be on display here, with young players being benched for fewer mistakes than the veterans in front of them in the rotation make instead of being developed, and veterans who have skills being banished due to behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.

Benching for a few games is not a problem if a guy deserves it, and fans generally know why, which likely is what should have happened with TJ. But total banishment in a situation like TJ's, under the guise of letting AJ develop, is a pretty difficult position to defend IMO. TJ can be 3rd in our current healthy pg / or small sg rotation with no problem, and get spot minutes, especially in a heavy schedule like we have had during his banishment, but it didn't happen.

Players talk. Word gets around. Right now, I would guess that we are a destination that players rank ahead of very few cities in the league as a place that they actually would want to be, for many reasons, and not the least of those is the way we treat our players, and how directionless we are as a franchise, which would lead to near likely instability for the personal lives of players who come here, with the knowledge that we either will be getting a different coach at some point pretty soon, and if not, that we would then be trading half or more of the roster to continue the futile chase of fulfillment of the O'B dream. These things lead to players uprooting their families, and the more often they have to do that, even though it is part of the business, the less happy they are, and the more stress it places on their wives and children, if they have those.

Hicks
01-25-2010, 12:30 PM
Banishment? I don't think so. He's 3rd string, and you typically play 2 PGs in any given game.

Jim's stated he won't play TJ in garbage time. I think he's doing that out of respect for him, not as an "Eff You." I think Jim sees playing TJ in garbage time only to be insulting to TJ and won't do that to him.

Disagreeing with that doesn't mean it's automatically Jim putting TJ in the dog house.

ChicagoJ
01-25-2010, 12:40 PM
TJ has played himself out of the rotation. What's wrong with leaving him there? Although I have some sympathy to the "other players will wonder if this is how management is going to treat them" case, the solution is easy: DON'T PLAY AS BAD AS TJ WAS PLAYING!!

:D

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2010, 12:55 PM
Naah. You stage it. I think TJ would look pretty good with a fresh coat of paint, a little less clutter, and a new sofa and breakfast table.
Where is Rat when you need him.

count55
01-25-2010, 01:01 PM
Banishment? I don't think so. He's 3rd string, and you typically play 2 PGs in any given game.

Jim's stated he won't play TJ in garbage time. I think he's doing that out of respect for him, not as an "Eff You." I think Jim sees playing TJ in garbage time only to be insulting to TJ and won't do that to him.

Disagreeing with that doesn't mean it's automatically Jim putting TJ in the dog house.

If you're out of the rotation in this league, meaning not one of the top 10 players, then you're just not going to see the floor. Last season, the 11th player only saw the floor for a team 802 times out of a possible 2460 player games, or less than 1/3 of the time. For the 12th player dressed, it was even worse, 337 player games, or less than one in seven.

The Pacers last year were slightly below average in this regard, with the 11th player seeing the floor 26 times and the 12th player getting action only 9 times.

The Pacers played three PG's in a game 47 times last year. However, that was heavily influenced by the fact that Jarrett Jack spent so much time playing the two (1,674 minutes, over 20 per game). That is not the case at present time.

Watson and Price have both been healthy. In January, Watson has averaged 31 minutes, while Price has played 21, considerably reducing the amount of time that you see 2 PG's on the floor vs. last season.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2010, 01:09 PM
Banishment? I don't think so. He's 3rd string, and you typically play 2 PGs in any given game.

Jim's stated he won't play TJ in garbage time. I think he's doing that out of respect for him, not as an "Eff You." I think Jim sees playing TJ in garbage time only to be insulting to TJ and won't do that to him.

Disagreeing with that doesn't mean it's automatically Jim putting TJ in the dog house.
JOB team. They NEVER play just two PGs. We even saw Diener get some garbage time the other day. Luther Head is a PG, and often we have Price playing SG with Watson at PG.

I'm not saying you yank things back the other way, but the issue is both directions. First AJ is just blatantly blocked on any minutes when it's clear he's got something, then to fix that you drop TJ from starter INSTANTLY to total DNP???

REDUCED ROLE, that we all get and wanted. "Wear your suit"?? That came from left field, at least by on-court play. TJ didn't flip out on the court or anything, he just wasn't fitting into the plan well. And even then he still could score his own points, much like Head is being asked to do.

When Head goes 0-7 due to injury recovery (I assume) that's a perfect time to admit it and use TJ instead for a little tiny burn. And however JOB used Luther that game he could have used TJ in the games before when Luther was totally out with injury.



I'm watching a carpenter pound nails with a screw driver and drive screws with a wrench and god knows what he's going to do with an unplugged jig saw but I'm not staying in the room to find out.

You have tools for many applications, use them as the moment dictates without forcing them into spots where they don't fit. TJ might want to start but I'm sure he'd at least settle for some light burn in order to contribute, have self-worth and have the chance to play back into the rotation.



Also on the short rotation crap that people sometimes use to defend low PT. This isn't the playoffs and due to the nature of back to backs, general heavy travel times, injuries and a massive variety of matchups since you play every single team at least twice, nearly all teams end up getting some levels of PT to even 13th or 14th guys over the year.

So Josh doesn't play every game, that's not the same as never. Same with all these guys. Clearly we can see now that there wasn't much of a reason to not be playing Price. He didn't just flip the switch, he just was allowed on the court.

See it's not that Josh is a miracle answer it's that he applies sometimes very well, and he's inability to retain PT after good games makes him the icon of a running theme with this team over the last 3 seasons. Wildly erratic playing time that can go from 35 minutes to DNP for 3 weeks at the drop of a hat.

Sookie
01-25-2010, 01:11 PM
Haven't AJ and Watson proven that they deserve time over TJ? I think that's pretty clear. And JOB is a coach that only plays 2 PG's in his rotation.

So I think this is "whether you agree or disagree about playing TJ during garbage time."

JOB think it'd be embarressing TJ to do that. Now, JOB tends to speak out his butt, but that certainly is a valid explanation.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2010, 01:13 PM
One other thing, here's exactly what JOB's methods feel like. It's like trying to get someone to try something they don't want to do. They'll give the token effort and the second there's a minor issue they say "see" and go right back to what they wanted to do. That's where Roy and Rush had short leashes last year.

They are looking for excuses, not solutions. And on this roster every single guy can give you an excuse for taking them out of the rotation, even Danny.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2010, 01:19 PM
Haven't AJ and Watson proven that they deserve time over TJ? I think that's pretty clear. And JOB is a coach that only plays 2 PG's in his rotation.

So I think this is "whether you agree or disagree about playing TJ during garbage time."

JOB think it'd be embarressing TJ to do that. Now, JOB tends to speak out his butt, but that certainly is a valid explanation.
But see I complained about this last year too. He insisted on running his PGs to the ground. The PG spot has 48 minutes per game. TJ and Jack alone tended to have games of about 60-70 total minutes.

He has extra "PG" time because he doubles them up and forces a SF to play PF to make room. Think about the big rotation lately, who's playing really? Roy and Troy. That's it. Solo barely plays (which I get, he's struggling right now) and Josh gets zip.

That's 96 minutes from the C and PF and those two aren't close to playing that much combined. All those other minutes basically go toward having a 2nd PG on the court if possible.


TJ played his way out of POINT GUARD, but as scoring guard when the offense dries up? Isn't that what Luther is doing? Couldn't TJ have done that last week?

And do you really think that limited play would be more embarrassing to TJ than suiting up only to stay on the bench? That's worse than being in a suit where the implication is either injury or personality issue.

What's anyone's opinion of the guy on ANY other team who's in uniform but never plays. I mean that 12th man on Cleveland's bench, or Toronto's bench, or even Dallas' bench. It's not a flattering opinion I'm sure.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2010, 01:24 PM
See, I'm not a TJ fan and I actually wanted him out of the starting PG. I was a huge Price fan prior to the draft so naturally in that way things are going well by my interests.

But I also don't like seeing players wasted or misapplied. Thus Josh, Rush, Roy, DJones, and now TJ complaints. Unless Ford is another Tinsley behind the scenes which seems really doubtful, I don't get this and I can't imagine the players do either.


Funny note, I got a nice photo of TJ and Iverson talking before the 2nd half. I couldn't help but assume what that topic was.

Trophy
01-25-2010, 01:47 PM
http://http://www.indystar.com/article/20100124/SPORTS04/1240372/1062/SPORTS04/T.J.-Ford-just-wants-to-play


Ford said he has not discussed a trade with Pacers management -- "I'm not looking to trade T.J.,'' Pacers president Larry Bird said Saturday night -- and hasn't been told his benching is for the rest of the season.

:confused:

jhondog28
01-25-2010, 02:07 PM
http://http://www.indystar.com/article/20100124/SPORTS04/1240372/1062/SPORTS04/T.J.-Ford-just-wants-to-play



:confused:

Dont be this is just Bird being stupid. He is trying to trade TJ. Why would you want him as the third PG on the bench. I donty know why he said he wasnt trying to trade him but I have no doubt he is.

Anthem
01-25-2010, 02:10 PM
Haven't AJ and Watson proven that they deserve time over TJ? I think that's pretty clear. And JOB is a coach that only plays 2 PG's in his rotation.
TJ's not the THIRD string, he's the FOURTH (behind Diener). And possibly the FIFTH (behind Head). I agree he's not a good fit in a starting role, but it does feel like banishment to me.

Anthem
01-25-2010, 02:10 PM
I would slap my own mother out of joy if we could trade T.J. Ford and Troy Murphy for Shaq.
There's a phrase you don't hear very often.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/opinion/28kristof.html

Justin Tyme
01-25-2010, 02:34 PM
O'Brien obviously prefers to use vets, so to not use Ford makes me really wonder what has gone on behind the scene. I could understand being discontent with Ford's play, but to banish him from not even sniffing minutes in garbage time? There seems to be something else going on, not that I'm complaining due to Price's PT and development.

As far as Bird not trying to trade Ford.........:bs:

Tom White
01-25-2010, 03:22 PM
Haven't AJ and Watson proven that they deserve time over TJ? I think that's pretty clear. And JOB is a coach that only plays 2 PG's in his rotation.

So I think this is "whether you agree or disagree about playing TJ during garbage time."

JOB think it'd be embarressing TJ to do that. Now, JOB tends to speak out his butt, but that certainly is a valid explanation.

I think we have to ask this question. Has TJ himself ever said it would be disrespectful or embarrassing to him to get "mop-up" minutes? To just be recognized as still being part of the team? Heck, he may as well be in a suit.

Speaking of suits, has anyone heard ANYTHING on Foster's situation? Maybe he said something nice about TJ to JOB.

On another note. The way a lot of us (including myself) abbreviate O'Brien's name, he sure is lucky his parents didn't name him Sam.

CableKC
01-25-2010, 03:23 PM
See, I'm not a TJ fan and I actually wanted him out of the starting PG. I was a huge Price fan prior to the draft so naturally in that way things are going well by my interests.

But I also don't like seeing players wasted or misapplied. Thus Josh, Rush, Roy, DJones, and now TJ complaints. Unless Ford is another Tinsley behind the scenes which seems really doubtful, I don't get this and I can't imagine the players do either.
I can see some justification ( a weak one at that ) where it can be argued that Luther would fit in better alongside cuz he can stretch the floor better then Ford....but when Luther's shot isn't falling....I don't see why JO'B can't simply try something different and simply play Ford. As you said, I have no problem with Watson and AJ playing ahead of Ford in the rotation.....but ( to your point ) for this wretched offense :puke:that we run...are there times when Ford's me-ball-offense ( that can be clutch at times ) wouldn't benefit the Team especially when Head isn't doing so well?

I guess this all comes down to JO'Bs reasoning for why Ford isn't playing. If JO'B has concluded that Ford cannot coexist with Watson/AJ ( under any circumstances ) and he always wants either Watson or AJ on the floor at all times....then the logical conclusion is that Ford will never see the floor as long as Watson/AJ are playing.

In our offense, should Watson/AJ ahead of Ford in the PG/SG rotation? Yep...definitely.

But should Head and Diener be ahead of Ford in the overall rotation? At best, I'd say that's even debateable given the circumstances. IMHO....there are many aspect of Ford's game that I abhore...but even I recognize that there are times when we could benefit from having him in the lineup ( most notably when we are in a scoring funk where no one is scoring and we need to try something different ). Ford has skills....the fact that JO'B cannot figure out how to effectively use him isn't very comforting.

To Ford's credit.....I think that we are fortunate that Ford is being the good soldier through all of this....cuz I can easily see this going another way ( which I would not blame him ) that would not benefit the Pacers in anyway in a split second. You have to wonder whether Bird has asked Ford to give the "happy go lucky" appearance while giving him the assurance ( much like he probably did for Tinsley ) that he's trying his best to send him to another Team.

BPump33
01-25-2010, 03:51 PM
Chris Sheridan chat:

Mike (Boston)


if the Lakers don't go for Hinrich, what are the chances they throw together a little package for TJ ford? Or would Larry Legend not help them out?

Chris Sheridan (2:49 PM)


Nobody wants TJ Ford. The Pacers have been trying to trade him for two years.


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30476

I know we've heard this before, but just thought I'd post anyway.

31andonly
01-25-2010, 04:04 PM
Why does it seem that the Pacers always have these guys that nobody else wants to have on their roster...?!

90'sNBARocked
01-25-2010, 04:34 PM
Yeah.....this article says nothing that we probably didn't suspect on our own.....Bird is trying to move Ford? Before the end of the season? Really? Haven't we known that TPTB have been trying to move Ford for-what-seems-like-an-eternity ( or over the last 1.5 seasons )?

Of course the best way to market our "asset" is to bench him in favor of a journeyman point guard , and a second round rookie.

Great sales techinque guys!

If they didn't want to buy before , they sure do now!
(sorry still dont know the apropriate green color, but post is sarcastic)

90'sNBARocked
01-25-2010, 05:05 PM
Nobody wants TJ Ford. The Pacers have been trying to trade him for two years.


Well, aparently the Pacers did

Tom White
01-25-2010, 05:14 PM
Why does it seem that the Pacers always have these guys that nobody else wants to have on their roster...?!

Before we all jump off the cliff, let's remember that the two "sources" who have made the "two years" comments are both from ESPN. You have to wonder if one of them made it up, and the other is just repeating what the first one said. I think we all remember the "Kobe Bryant will never wear a Lakers uniform again." junk that spewed from yet another expert from that network.

90'sNBARocked
01-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Before we all jump off the cliff, let's remember that the two "sources" who have made the "two years" comments are both from ESPN. You have to wonder if one of them made it up, and the other is just repeating what the first one said. I think we all remember the "Kobe Bryant will never wear a Lakers uniform again." junk that spewed from yet another expert from that network.

I do,

What I dont understand is the head coach saying TJ Ford will be traded , with Bird saying he will not

Is there a power struggle going on?

Doddage
01-25-2010, 05:45 PM
Well, aparently the Pacers did
We wanted to get rid of JO more than we wanted to pick up Ford.

d_c
01-25-2010, 05:48 PM
I do,

What I dont understand is the head coach saying TJ Ford will be traded , with Bird saying he will not

Is there a power struggle going on?

JOB probably spoke too soon and Bird of course tried to save whatever value Ford (if there is any) still has by saying they still like him and want to keep him.

Of course none of the stuff either guy said matters, because teams can see through the Pacers' actions that this guy is not part of their plans, even in the short term.

ChicagoJ
01-25-2010, 05:49 PM
We wanted to get rid of JO more than we wanted to pick up Ford.

And trading JO for Rasho's expiring contract, a draft pick, and Ford's smaller-than-JO's contract was okay. The problem has more to do with the player associated with Ford's contract.

ksuttonjr76
01-25-2010, 05:52 PM
TJ's not the THIRD string, he's the FOURTH (behind Diener). And possibly the FIFTH (behind Head). I agree he's not a good fit in a starting role, but it does feel like banishment to me.

Exactly! What precisely did he do that was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad to get no minutes at all? IMHO, I rather have Ford backup Price, because he's a better overall PG who can give ANY backup PG on any team fits. I wish a coach would regulate me from starter to zero without a clear reason other than "didn't fit the offense" or "develop the young guy". With the way JOB coaches, NO ONE fits the offense other than Murphy.

vnzla81
01-25-2010, 06:01 PM
And trading JO for Rasho's expiring contract, a draft pick, and Ford's smaller-than-JO's contract was okay. The problem has more to do with the player associated with Ford's contract.

no just that, remember that with that pick they got Roy freaking Hibbert

Hicks
01-25-2010, 06:09 PM
Well, aparently the Pacers did

Sort of.

When you want to trade Jermaine O'Neal and his contract, your two best point guards are Flip Murray and Travis Diener, and Toronto offers you Ford, Rasho's Big Expiring Contract, and the #17 pick, you say "YES."

vnzla81
01-25-2010, 06:17 PM
Sort of.

When you want to trade Jermaine O'Neal and his contract, your two best point guards are Flip Murray and Travis Diener, and Toronto offers you Ford, Rasho's Big Expiring Contract, and the #17 pick, you say "YES."

I will take the same deal if they trade Murphy and Dunleavy for the same package ;)

sportfireman
01-25-2010, 06:20 PM
Exactly! What precisely did he do that was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad to get no minutes at all? IMHO, I rather have Ford backup Price, because he's a better overall PG who can give ANY backup PG on any team fits. I wish a coach would regulate me from starter to zero without a clear reason other than "didn't fit the offense" or "develop the young guy". With the way JOB coaches, NO ONE fits the offense other than Murphy.

With JOB as coach Bird already knew that JO would get limited to no minutes with Murphy out there so get rid of him regardless if he's healthy or not. I don't know the whole story, Im not at practice or on the sidelines.... but what's being done to TJ is just wrong and also a just flat out dumb business move.

Bird "hey we have a great pg to trade you"
other team "oh yeah, who is he?"

Bird "T.J. FORD he's one heck of a ball player"
ot "well is he hurt cause I haven't seen him out there playing"

Bird "ummm mmmm it's like this he's not hurt but he's not umm it's a long story"
ot "im all ears"

Bird "Look do you want him or not!!!!!!!"
ot ".............................click"

As long as we keep doing players wrong we will not have success on this team. You can't continue to bully players or people for that matter and expect everything to be just fine.

GOD doesn't like ugly...... treat others like you want to be treated.

jhondog28
01-25-2010, 07:17 PM
I will take the same deal if they trade Murphy and Dunleavy for the same package ;)

It cracks me up how Dun and Murph are tied together it seems in everything. Big white players who have played their careers together the entire time. They have never made the playoffs and both have terrible contracts. And no matter what they always seem to be a package deal. It is like that movie with Matt Damon called "Stuck on You"

90'sNBARocked
01-25-2010, 07:20 PM
We wanted to get rid of JO more than we wanted to pick up Ford.

Interesting

One starts for a team currently in the playoffs (that would be JO)

The other is relegated to 4th PG of a tream with a stellar 15-28 record

hmmmm, wonder who got the better deal?

PS I know the extras that came with it, I just found it funny the current status of JO and Ford

90'sNBARocked
01-25-2010, 07:22 PM
Sort of.

When you want to trade Jermaine O'Neal and his contract, your two best point guards are Flip Murray and Travis Diener, and Toronto offers you Ford, Rasho's Big Expiring Contract, and the #17 pick, you say "YES."

I know I guess im just a little sad how supposedly our players are bad news before being traded, then after seem to do well and have no issues

yet the players we take on are seemingly "desired" yet we end up sending them to the bench

Are the Pacers ruining players careers? (outside of Jarret Jack)

speakout4
01-25-2010, 08:30 PM
Banishment? I don't think so. He's 3rd string, and you typically play 2 PGs in any given game.

Jim's stated he won't play TJ in garbage time. I think he's doing that out of respect for him, not as an "Eff You." I think Jim sees playing TJ in garbage time only to be insulting to TJ and won't do that to him.

Disagreeing with that doesn't mean it's automatically Jim putting TJ in the dog house.
I hope no one ever shows me that kind of respect.

d_c
01-26-2010, 01:04 AM
Are the Pacers ruining players careers? (outside of Jarret Jack)

Granger developed into an all-star. Murphy had a career year. Dunleavy's went nowhere under 4 coaches (including 2 Coach of the Years) until he met Jim O'Brien.

D-BONE
01-26-2010, 07:39 AM
I know I guess im just a little sad how supposedly our players are bad news before being traded, then after seem to do well and have no issues

yet the players we take on are seemingly "desired" yet we end up sending them to the bench

Are the Pacers ruining players careers? (outside of Jarret Jack)


Maybe certain players have ruined themselves and others. There are a lot of contextual factors that need to be looked at when comparing playing here in roughly the brawl era to playing the downside of your career with a superstart who's legitimacy of team leader you'd be a fool to question.

TJ Ford would have been at best marginally desired when we made that trade. That was the part of the deal that balanced out JO's "negative equity" from our side. I'm not that surprised about his demotion.

Personally, I never found him overly impressive in what you look for in a PG. More of a scoring guard in a small PG's body who can't shoot the 3. He was benched and then traded from two teams that had conferred PG of the present/future duties to him.

hoopsforlife
01-26-2010, 10:22 AM
All TJ Ford had to do was pass the ball and keep his feet on the floor. He wasn't able or willing to do that so he sits on the bench. :shrug:

Brad8888
01-26-2010, 11:00 AM
I know, TJ is being benched "out of respect" for his physical well being. Why risk garbage minute injury on a player you have no intention of ever using in a significant fashion again, especially during trade season.

Justin Tyme
01-26-2010, 12:28 PM
I know, TJ is being benched "out of respect" for his physical well being. Why risk garbage minute injury on a player you have no intention of ever using in a significant fashion again, especially during trade season.



Ah, so after 2-18, Ford will start getting playing time again? OR the Pacers FO "out of respect" for Ford's physical well being won't play him the rest of the season in order to to guarantee Ford gets no injury, so as not to "damage" his trade value for the off season trading season?

Sorry, I'm not believing it. There is something else going on. Even if it's a lesson to be learned situation.... even if it's only a either play my/our way type learning experience. How can the Pacers truly afford to do another Tinsley punishment for the next 1 1/2 years at 12 mil, if Bird isn't looking to trade Ford? If Bird expects fans to be that gullible to believe he's not looking/trying to trade Ford, I have some ocean front property in Brown County I'd like to sell Bird.

Brad8888
01-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Ah, so after 2-18, Ford will start getting playing time again? OR the Pacers FO "out of respect" for Ford's physical well being won't play him the rest of the season in order to to guarantee Ford gets no injury, so as not to "damage" his trade value for the off season trading season?

Sorry, I'm not believing it. There is something else going on. Even if it's a lesson to be learned situation.... even if it's only a either play my/our way type learning experience. How can the Pacers truly afford to do another Tinsley punishment for the next 1 1/2 years at 12 mil, if Bird isn't looking to trade Ford? If Bird expects fans to be that gullible to believe he's not looking/trying to trade Ford, I have some ocean front property in Brown County I'd like to sell Bird.

Bird would wonder if he could keep the beach umbrella.

Actually, I forgot to indicate my sarcasm during the previous post.

Now, I don't buy that O'B wanted him benched at all. TJ plays too much like the other pgs have during his tenure here for it not to be due to , just with worse overall judgement regarding when to drive and pass. I really just think that Bird shut him down in an effort to control one aspect of our bad play, and it seems to have reduced it somewhat.

I actually doubt he plays the rest of the season in an effort to freeze him out and discourage him from exercising his option.

CableKC
01-27-2010, 02:36 PM
No new info here.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30476/nba-with-chris-sheridan


Mike (Boston)

if the Lakers don't go for Hinrich, what are the chances they throw together a little package for TJ ford? Or would Larry Legend not help them out?

Chris Sheridan (2:49 PM)

Nobody wants TJ Ford. The Pacers have been trying to trade him for two years.
I'm not sure if Chris Sheridan is answering based off of current or past info.

If he actually did his homework and his response is based off of any info that he has recently learned from whatever "sources" he has....then "ouch"...yet not surprising.

If his response isn't based off of anything other then what he heard a months ago ( in the whole "TJ hasn't been here for 2 years" thread ), then this news isn't anything new.

PacerGuy
01-27-2010, 04:04 PM
TJ will be wanted again by other NBA GM's,...

...but not for 12 months.

In a "perfect situation", a team w/ cap swings & misses out on '10 FA's & they decide to gear up for '11. If they have a piece that might help our efforts of supporting Danny w/o killing our own '11 plan, then maybe there is a chance he moves in the off season, but that would be the earliest.

Can we let the TJ trade talk die yet?
The summer is a long time off (& the '11 trade deadline is even longer).

Just Remember: 3 YEAR PLAN (not 1.5, not 2, but 3).