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Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 09:05 AM
I know most of you are concentrating on the possible lineup change (those bore me and are discussed to no end). But to me what was most interesting were the comments by Mike Dunleavy. I'll also include the comments by Granger as well.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2010/01/obrien_goes_off.html

Granger - "He got into our (butts)," Danny Granger said. "We're not always tied together as a team. We make selfish plays on offense and defense. We argue with each other instead of getting mad at the other team. We deserve everything he told us. We can't get down 25 points every game we play."


Dunleavy - "I think sometimes it can be attributed to effort, other times it can be attributed to understanding what we're trying to do," swingman Mike Dunleavy said. "It seems like we have a hard time following through what we're told to do on a daily and weekly basis.

"We're always playing catch up. Certainly more effort and desire will help that, but at some point we have to start figuring things out and know where we're supposed to be."



OK, I'm dying to know who Mike is talking about. what players don't know where they are supposed to be. What players don't follow the game plan

Danny's comment about that they aren't always tied together as a team is what I see.


I don't have any answers, but I think I'm going to start looking at these areas, because really I think Mike and Danny both have very valid points.

Edit: I just realized something, this likely will turn into an anti O'Brien thread, I sure hope not.

jhondog28
01-21-2010, 09:32 AM
I know most of you are concentrating on the possible lineup change (those bore me and are discussed to no end). But to me what was most interesting were the comments by Mike Dunleavy. I'll also include the comments by Granger as well.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2010/01/obrien_goes_off.html

Granger - "He got into our (butts)," Danny Granger said. "We're not always tied together as a team. We make selfish plays on offense and defense. We argue with each other instead of getting mad at the other team. We deserve everything he told us. We can't get down 25 points every game we play."


Dunleavy - "I think sometimes it can be attributed to effort, other times it can be attributed to understanding what we're trying to do," swingman Mike Dunleavy said. "It seems like we have a hard time following through what we're told to do on a daily and weekly basis.

"We're always playing catch up. Certainly more effort and desire will help that, but at some point we have to start figuring things out and know where we're supposed to be."



OK, I'm dying to know who Mike is talking about. what players don't know where they are supposed to be. What players don't follow the game plan

Danny's comment about that they aren't always tied together as a team is what I see.


I don't have any answers, but I think I'm going to start looking at these areas, because really I think Mike and Danny both have very valid points.

Edit: I just realized something, this likely will turn into an anti O'Brien thread, I sure hope not.

To summarize this team does not have a leader. The coach has lost the team, the captains are not doing their jobs, and they just want to do the playground basketball thing and generate as many points for themselves as possible. I saw it last night. It was non shooters taking jump shots and jump shooters not trying to get the basketball into the low post. From a pacers digest member who watches the games on the tv it is easier for us to see than most. It is so hard for me to just pinpoint one thing that is wrong on the team.

sportfireman
01-21-2010, 09:37 AM
I would say D.Jones is the main one, I like AJ and Im a big fan but he can play a lil selfish at times also, Solo looks lost out there sometimes, Head appears to play selfish...... and the biggest one of them all Danny.....unless its JOB that is telling him to come down the court and shoot a three without passing or setting up your offense. But hey most of the 3pt shooters do it so maybe it is JOB's telling them to do it. But if not is it Danny pouting because he's having shots taken away from him?.........who knows.

able
01-21-2010, 09:44 AM
Granger - "He got into our (butts)," Danny Granger said. "We're not always tied together as a team. We make selfish plays on offense and defense. We argue with each other instead of getting mad at the other team. We deserve everything he told us. We can't get down 25 points every game we play."



First of all I would have highlighted the part done above, after removal of TJ one would think that few of those players were left.
Since it is Granger saying it, I am pretty sure he is not thinking of himself, and we can exclude Hibbert and Rush as well I think, that leaves precious few players (in the starting line and on the bench)

With Head and Watson as unlikely candidates as well, that leaves hmm let me see, Tyler, Dantay, Solo and Murphy.

Shall I leave it to the reader what to make of that ??

graphic-er
01-21-2010, 09:47 AM
Its all about effort, how many times in the last 2 florida games did you see players absolutely quit on defense. Nearly every time down the floor, and Dunleavy and Granger are prime examples of it. They stand there and watch and won't bring the help defense. Dunleavy wouldn't even challenge a layup from OLD white chocolate Jason Williams. Or they just foul instead of actually making a defensive play, aka Troy Murphy.

I'd start Ford, Tyler, & McRoberts next game. At this point wins don't even matter, just not getting blown out, making a game of it comes first.

graphic-er
01-21-2010, 09:51 AM
I would say D.Jones is the main one, I like AJ and Im a big fan but he can play a lil selfish at times also, Solo looks lost out there sometimes, Head appears to play selfish...... and the biggest one of them all Danny.....unless its JOB that is telling him to come down the court and shoot a three without passing or setting up your offense. But hey most of the 3pt shooters do it so maybe it is JOB's telling them to do it. But if not is it Danny pouting because he's having shots taken away from him?.........who knows.

I would not say that its Danny, last 2-3 games Danny has rarely seen the ball in the beginning of the game, and almost shut out of the offense.

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 09:58 AM
Its all about effort, how many times in the last 2 florida games did you see players absolutely quit on defense. Nearly every time down the floor, and Dunleavy and Granger are prime examples of it. They stand there and watch and won't bring the help defense. Dunleavy wouldn't even challenge a layup from OLD white chocolate Jason Williams. Or they just foul instead of actually making a defensive play, aka Troy Murphy.




You are ignoring an important point that maybe Mike is trying to scream from the mountain tops about. Maybe the effort of some of the players is bad (not that is justifies it) because several players don't folow the game plan - that right there can ruin team morale and that is what certainly leads to poor effort.

If I help off my man and a teammate doesn't help on my man and I get embarassed, that would hurt my effort. If I am Mike Dunleavy and my teammates halfway through the season don't know what offensive play we are running that would hurt my effort. Sure the first time is happens OK, , but it if happens again and again it kills the morale of the team.

Maybe that is just what is happening

PaceBalls
01-21-2010, 09:58 AM
I would say D.Jones is the main one.

DJones - 6-8 FGs, 5-6 FTs for 17pts.

Maybe he needs to be more selfish...

I also think it's ironic we have Danny here talking about players being selfish as he leads the team in shots and shot 7 three pt attempts.

Dunleavy's comments are starting to sound like the stuff he was saying in GS. The attitude of I know what I am doing but no one else does. News flash for him. He isn't exactly carrying us to victory..

Uhg, who can fix this mess? I'm just disgusted with the team, mostly the coach.

jhondog28
01-21-2010, 10:05 AM
DJones - 6-8 FGs, 5-6 FTs for 17pts.

Maybe he needs to be more selfish...

I also think it's ironic we have Danny here talking about players being selfish as he leads the team in shots and shot 7 three pt attempts.

Dunleavy's comments are starting to sound like the stuff he was saying in GS. The attitude of I know what I am doing but no one else does. News flash for him. He isn't exactly carrying us to victory..

Uhg, who can fix this mess? I'm just disgusted with the team, mostly the coach.

I just think he is a coach's son who grew up watching NBA games. Yes I know the NBA has changed as far as athleticism and things like that, but he still understands the importance of movement and spacing. He is not whining...he is frustrated because he cannot be successful playing one on one. He simply does not have the talent level, but what he can do is move and space well. But that depends on the team being on the same page. I am being dead serious here...our team does not move at all. DJones, Watson, Granger for example last night tried to play one on one and take their man off the dribble and drive. Or they would take a very quick 15 ft jumper. DJones and Watson are our jump shooters...it makes me want to barf. Sorry but I see what Dun is saying on this one. This is night and day from what he was saying in GS.

sportfireman
01-21-2010, 10:07 AM
I would not say that its Danny, last 2-3 games Danny has rarely seen the ball in the beginning of the game, and almost shut out of the offense.

just because its been that way for a game or two, what about the other games. ask yourself why is the teams franchise player, best player and leading scorer being almost shut out of an offense??? thats the question:hmm:



DJones - 6-8 FGs, 5-6 FTs for 17pts.

Maybe he needs to be more selfish...

I also think it's ironic we have Danny here talking about players being selfish as he leads the team in shots and shot 7 three pt attempts.

Dunleavy's comments are starting to sound like the stuff he was saying in GS. The attitude of I know what I am doing but no one else does. News flash for him. He isn't exactly carrying us to victory..

Uhg, who can fix this mess? I'm just disgusted with the team, mostly the coach.

once again that was only 1 game does that erase the rest of the times when he's driven in head down or passed up passing to an open man for a jumper for himself?


seriously do you all think these problems developed in 1 or 2 games. this has been going on all season and its coming to the surface.

Putnam
01-21-2010, 10:15 AM
OK, I'm dying to know who Mike is talking about. what players don't know where they are supposed to be. What players don't follow the game plan


And this is where we as fans must be content to stay on the outside and in the dark.

Dunleavy oughtn't to name names in the press. And maybe he oughtn't to make it evident by calling teammates out on the floor during games.

But you have to hope that he is being very, very candid in the locker room. You have to hope that there is discontent and plain anger in the locker room. Where they say, "We" in public, somebody needs to be naming names and pointing fingers and saying "You" where it will do some good.

And yet, if we hear there's been a tiff beyond the locker room door, many of us will spin it negatively rather than acknowledging that it is just what is needed.

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 10:19 AM
And this is where we as fans must be content to stay on the outside and in the dark.

Dunleavy oughtn't to name names in the press. And maybe he oughtn't to make it evident by calling teammates out on the floor during games.

But you have to hope that he is being very, very candid in the locker room. You have to hope that there is discontent and plain anger in the locker room. Where they say, "We" in public, somebody needs to be naming names and pointing fingers and saying "You" where it will do some good.

And yet, if we hear there's been a tiff beyond the locker room door, many of us will spin it negatively rather than acknowledging that it is just what is needed.

I don't have any inside info. But my hunch is Mike isn't frustrated by players such as Josh, Solo, Price, Diener, Head, Tyler, Foster because these 7 players either aren't playing, are too young to expect anything else, or just aren't vital players to the overall team. My guess is Mike is frustrated with the core players -

duke dynamite
01-21-2010, 10:22 AM
If that is the case, this is more of a soap opera cast other than an NBA team.

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 10:28 AM
If that is the case, this is more of a soap opera cast other than an NBA team.

No, it is pretty common on every NBA team to varying degrees. At the very least it is always bubbling just below the surface, but if a team has good leadership than it is kept below the surface. Pacers don't have any good leadership so it IMO is allowed to flourish and run rampant

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-21-2010, 10:36 AM
I don't have any inside info. But my hunch is Mike isn't frustrated by players such as Josh, Solo, Price, Diener, Head, Tyler, Foster because these 7 players either aren't playing, are too young to expect anything else, or just aren't vital players to the overall team. My guess is Mike is frustrated with the core players -

Add TJ because he's not playing and that's 8.

That leaves Murphy, Rush, Granger, DJones, Watson and Roy.

I don't think it's Roy simply because of his personality. You tell him something, where to be, what to do... he'll work on it, no problem.

Rush? What's he doing wrong? He rarely looks for his shot, and he's solid on defense.

I don't think he's talking about Murph since he's probably Dun's closest friend on the team from their GS days. If it was that big of an issue, they'd handle it privately and work it out.

So Watson, DJones or Granger? My money's on Dahntay. Just my hunch...

count55
01-21-2010, 10:42 AM
Personally, I think Dunleavy's game is more dependent on the team playing cohesively, and therefore is hurt more than anyone else when things go off the rails. That being said, I also think he tends to deflect - a lot - and when he struggles, he takes it out on those around him. An understandable, but not particularly desirable, trait.

Anthem
01-21-2010, 10:46 AM
Personally, I think Dunleavy's game is more dependent on the team playing cohesively, and therefore is hurt more than anyone else when things go off the rails. That being said, I also think he tends to deflect - a lot - and when he struggles, he takes it out on those around him. An understandable, but not particularly desirable, trait.
This is what I was going to say, except you said it better.

BillS
01-21-2010, 11:01 AM
If it was a single specific player you would think things would get better when that player sat down.

I don't think one guy is screwing everything up, I think everyone is off the mark a little bit but in such different directions that it leaves a gaping hole.

Sorry, UB, but this part I kind of have to lay at JOB's feet. Not because of his substitution patterns or love for a particular player, but because the way to fix this is with a large palette of set plays that get everyone on the floor going in the same direction. If everyone is doing read-and-react then it is urgent everyone is on the same page - since they are not, they can't get coherent.

It isn't because they mean to be selfish or dislike each other or even that there's some kind of locker room issue. It is that they aren't <i>thinking</i> the same way on the floor, which is vital for a free-flow offense.

What I then think happens is that bad offense leads to desperation on defense, where it is also easy to knock guys off their timing because they aren't focusing on defending, they are focusing on what they have to do to get a score next time.

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 11:02 AM
Personally, I think Dunleavy's game is more dependent on the team playing cohesively, and therefore is hurt more than anyone else when things go off the rails. That being said, I also think he tends to deflect - a lot - and when he struggles, he takes it out on those around him. An understandable, but not particularly desirable, trait.

That maybe be true. But I also believe and trust Mike 100% on this issue which he is commenting on. Should he make it public (although he didn't name any names, but by not naming names he leaves everyone open for scrutiny) no, but I believe Mike 100% if he says it is a problem I will take his word on that 100%

Brad8888
01-21-2010, 11:07 AM
Danny sure seems to be supporting O'B, which is good as the leader of the team, and it is also good that he is being vocal about it.

Dunleavy's statement is layered, and with a purpose. It seems that he is saying that there is a lack of effort, which is obvious to even casual observers. But, he is also saying something very seperate from that as well, which could reflect poorly on both some of the players basketball IQ as well as the ability of the coaching staff to communicate and teach what it is that they are trying to implement with yet another roster.

Yes, the players have a difficult time with knowing where they are supposed to be. That changes every single time the lineup changes. Without full understanding of a system that they have never seen successfully implemented anywhere in professional basketball, and no template to follow, it would probably be mind boggling to make adjustments to as many lineup changes as have been required for either injury, chemistry, or performance issues while still trying to understand what it is, exactly, that O'B wants from them. Dunleavy being singled out by O'B as a genius previously probably shows that he is one of the players who does understand what O'B wants, but he probably also realizes, and is frustrated by, the fact that there continues to be issues that most teams are able to use training camp and preseason, and sometimes the early part of the regular season, to get squared away.

Players are then left hanging and look bad, and very likely are dressed down by the coaching staff for not following the plan when, in their heart of hearts, they believe that they (as individuals) in fact are not only following the plan (whether they are or not), but are also doing what they can to make up for the deficiencies of other players not following the system. That would have to be extremely upsetting.

So, do we continue to shake up the roster with trades before the deadline and then watch the rest of the season while we bull ahead on a foundation built on the "quick"sand of the 3 based offense that comes apart regularly due to fatigue and lack of effort, or do we get to the heart of the matter and begin to make the long term change required for the health of the franchise in the long term based on fundamental basketball with sustainable paced offense and a focus on defense predicated on keeping yourself between your man and the basket with weakside help as required, and then see what players can and cannot follow such a basic plan, and once isolated, trade them as opportunities arise with an eye toward assembling a team that can do so?

My guess is that we will keep O'B, and try, yet fail, to make trades that do anything but accept salary dumps from other franchises that provide us with name players with additional bloated contracts that mesh OK with the gap that we have in place in future years, with the thinking being that names that are second tier yet recognizable players will attract casual fan interest and get people to come to Conseco between now and April, when the deadline for negotiations with the CIB for a major portion our financial future concludes.

kellogg
01-21-2010, 11:08 AM
First of all I would have highlighted the part done above, after removal of TJ one would think that few of those players were left.
Since it is Granger saying it, I am pretty sure he is not thinking of himself, and we can exclude Hibbert and Rush as well I think, that leaves precious few players (in the starting line and on the bench)

With Head and Watson as unlikely candidates as well, that leaves hmm let me see, Tyler, Dantay, Solo and Murphy.

Shall I leave it to the reader what to make of that ??

Can't be Ty or Solo...they don't play enough minutes to impact squat. TJ is in the doghouse.

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 11:15 AM
Sorry, UB, but this part I kind of have to lay at JOB's feet. Not because of his substitution patterns or love for a particular player, but because the way to fix this is with a large palette of set plays that get everyone on the floor going in the same direction. If everyone is doing read-and-react then it is urgent everyone is on the same page - since they are not, they can't get coherent.



No problem, I didn't intend to try and keep O'Brien out of the discussion entirely, just didn't want the thread to turn into everything is JOB's fault. I'm more than willing to accept that the coaching staff deserves some blame as well

count55
01-21-2010, 11:17 AM
If it was a single specific player you would think things would get better when that player sat down.

I don't think one guy is screwing everything up, I think everyone is off the mark a little bit but in such different directions that it leaves a gaping hole.

Sorry, UB, but this part I kind of have to lay at JOB's feet. Not because of his substitution patterns or love for a particular player, but because the way to fix this is with a large palette of set plays that get everyone on the floor going in the same direction. If everyone is doing read-and-react then it is urgent everyone is on the same page - since they are not, they can't get coherent.

It isn't because they mean to be selfish or dislike each other or even that there's some kind of locker room issue. It is that they aren't <i>thinking</i> the same way on the floor, which is vital for a free-flow offense.

What I then think happens is that bad offense leads to desperation on defense, where it is also easy to knock guys off their timing because they aren't focusing on defending, they are focusing on what they have to do to get a score next time.

I think this is all valid, and I think more set plays could settle things down, offensively, for a short while. However, I don't think it's a long term solution (nor am I sure that there is a long term solution with this roster.)

count55
01-21-2010, 11:58 AM
That maybe be true. But I also believe and trust Mike 100% on this issue which he is commenting on. Should he make it public (although he didn't name any names, but by not naming names he leaves everyone open for scrutiny) no, but I believe Mike 100% if he says it is a problem I will take his word on that 100%

I agree that it is a problem. It often seems as if these guys just met each other when they got to the arena.

However, I also think that Dunleavy is playing horribly right now. Part of that is due to what other guys are doing (or not doing right), but a lot of that is on him. My basic point is that he's a part of the problem, (at times, a very large part of the problem).

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 12:20 PM
I agree that it is a problem. It often seems as if these guys just met each other when they got to the arena.

However, I also think that Dunleavy is playing horribly right now. Part of that is due to what other guys are doing (or not doing right), but a lot of that is on him. My basic point is that he's a part of the problem, (at times, a very large part of the problem).

Sure he's part of the problem he isn't playing well, but I don't think his problem is not knowing where he needs to be offensively or defensively.

CableKC
01-21-2010, 12:22 PM
First of all I would have highlighted the part done above, after removal of TJ one would think that few of those players were left.
Since it is Granger saying it, I am pretty sure he is not thinking of himself, and we can exclude Hibbert and Rush as well I think, that leaves precious few players (in the starting line and on the bench)

With Head and Watson as unlikely candidates as well, that leaves hmm let me see, Tyler, Dantay, Solo and Murphy.

Shall I leave it to the reader what to make of that ??
To be fair......of course Granger isn't going to think of himself as being selfish. But to everyone else....who I'd guess ( in some way ) think the same way, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the Team thought the same of Granger himself. How many times have we seen the 5 Players on the floor moving, cutting, setting screens....and then all of a sudden, Granger get the ball and all that movement stops and everyone stands and wait for him to shoot the ball?

The most logical choices of who'd likely be considered "selfish" on the offensive end would be Granger, Murphy and Inferno. I wouldn't be surprised if Granger was referring to Inferno....cuz we have seen them bicker on the floor...on top of that...we have seen that JO'B and the rest of the Team has been p*ssed off at him for not looking to make that extra pass. But I wouldn't be surprised ( as well ) if the rest of the Team sees Granger as equally selfish on the offensive end.

Speed
01-21-2010, 12:35 PM
Losing team grumbling about losing, that's my take away. Sad that it's turning into finger pointing. I'm pretty sure most of these guys won't be around in two years, so I'm not too worried about it.

bellisimo
01-21-2010, 12:39 PM
if players are being selfish or don't know where they are...then they are just not giving a damn about the system...and if players don't care about the system - it pretty much makes it sound like they tuned out the coach...

90'sNBARocked
01-21-2010, 12:46 PM
What I can't understand is what is the big change from last year? This current team has no resemblence to last years.

Last Year every game was exciting. Win or lose we were in it to the end. I am convinced that Daniels, Rasho and Jack are NOT the main reason.

I think Obie has clearly lost the team. I also think Bird is being a little hypocritical. He fires Rick Carslyle after three years (and a hell of a job with a winning record)because "Players tune out the coach after 3 years" yet he gives Obie (whos record has been below average each year) an extension after his 3rd year

This is making me physically ill. I can not find (at current time) one single positive thing about this team.

The worst is the games now suck, and its painful to watch a team that looks as disinterested as this one.

Sookie
01-21-2010, 12:49 PM
First of all I would have highlighted the part done above, after removal of TJ one would think that few of those players were left.
Since it is Granger saying it, I am pretty sure he is not thinking of himself, and we can exclude Hibbert and Rush as well I think, that leaves precious few players (in the starting line and on the bench)

With Head and Watson as unlikely candidates as well, that leaves hmm let me see, Tyler, Dantay, Solo and Murphy.

Shall I leave it to the reader what to make of that ??

Or he's including himself.

It's hard to play this way. Because a shot is supposed to go up fast, but at the same time..how do you play a team game when that happens?

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 12:51 PM
I think Obie has clearly lost the team. I also think Bird is being a little hypocritical. He fires Rick Carslyle after three years (and a hell of a job with a winning record)because "Players tune out the coach after 3 years" yet he gives Obie (whos record has been below average each year) an extension after his 3rd year



Rick was here for 4 years and he was given an extension and title after the 3rd season (I believe). and then was fired after the 4th season. So actually what Bird is doing with JOB is very, very similar to what Bird did with Carlisle. Most fans thought Rick had lost the team after 3 years, but Larry kept him another year because and I think Bird said as much that Rick had to put up with so much: brawl, injuries, off the court.....

Bird gave JOB an extension after the second year I think so he wouldn't be a lameduck.

Everyone just needs to relax a little bit if the season ended right now, I wouldn't expect Bird to retain O'Brien - reason I say right now is unless something significant changes with the team I don't expect Jim to be back next season

90'sNBARocked
01-21-2010, 12:55 PM
Rick was here for 4 years and he was given an extension and title and then was fired after the 4th season. So actually what Bird is doing with JOB is very, very similar to what Bird did with Carlisle. Most fans thought Rick had lost the team after 3 years, but Larry kept him another year because and I think Bird said as much that Rick had to put up with so much: brawl, injuries, off the court.....

Bird gave JOB an extension after the second year I think so he wouldn't be a lameduck.

Everyone just needs to relax a little bit if the season ended right now, I wouldn't expect Bird to retain O'Brien - reason I say right now is unless something significant changes with the team I don't expect Jim to be back next season


My bad, I thought Carsyle was here for 3.

Buck, do you remeber Bird saying something like the players tune out the coach after the 3rd year?

By the way though big difference between obie and RC , RC actually won games and showed promise

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 01:01 PM
My bad, I thought Carsyle was here for 3.

Buck, do you remeber Bird saying something like the players tune out the coach after the 3rd year?

By the way though big difference between obie and RC , RC actually won games and showed promise

Yeah Bird has said it several times - it is in his book

Dr. Goldfoot
01-21-2010, 01:13 PM
Players out of position on offense and defense is something that's been happening all year but now we're seeing sloppy play too. Clark Kellogg & Slick both went out of their way last night to point out MDJ was guarding the fast break poorly on at least two occasions. The play where Price threw the ball out of bounds JOB immediately yelled "What the hell are you doing?" to someone else down court after that play. Someone was supposed to be there, not that it absolves A.J. from throwing the ball to the front row. There was a play earlier in the game where Danny & Troy were just a few feet apart and Danny made a vee cut to the hoop. Troy threw it too soon and the ball went out of bounds behind Danny. Another play where Rush left his man to stop dribble penetration and nobody ( Troy & Roy) bothered to clog the lane behind him and instead just watched the penetrater pass down to Rush's man for the lay in.

These are the kind of plays you'd expect to see in a PD pickup game. Pro ballplayers should never make these kind of gaffs especially half way into a season and when the guys generally screwing up have been playing together for a couple of years (and in some cases longer).

imawhat
01-21-2010, 01:22 PM
Wow, both Danny and Mike need to take a long look in the mirror because they are both largely at fault for their complaints; probably more than any other player on the team.

The most telling aspect of the article was O'Briens actions, which tell me two things: 1) The team has little player leadership, and 2) O'Brien still has control of the team. I thought the players responded very well in the 2nd half. Now I know why.

pwee31
01-21-2010, 01:38 PM
I dunno, once the Pacers started making the comeback in the 4th last night, they all got a little selfish.

I know Watson came down a took a pull up jumper and missed, as did Dunleavy. Watson and Murphy both shot a questionable 3 during that run as well.

Danny does that throughout the game, and though Dahntay shot well last night, some of his one on one mid range pull ups are forced as well.

I personally think our off-season pickups in Watson and Dahntay have been solid at times, but can also force things on offensively quite a bit, when they're not offensive players.

I hate when any player forces a shot, but I hate it even more when it's a player who's never been known to be a scorer/shooter

Bball
01-21-2010, 01:41 PM
Sorry UncleBuck but the ship has clearly sailed on O'Brien. The team has finally had enough. O'Brien's mixed messages have worn thin. You want to know why players are confused... Look no further than the mixed messages (verbals vs actions) that O'Brien has spun. Then mix in his inability to find a rotation and let any kind of chemistry develop. Let alone find a way to maximize the talents of the players he has (not the players he wishes he had). Instead, he wants to maximize his losing brand of basketball with players who simply can see it for what it is: A losing brand of basketball.

I know deep down you cannot like what O'Brien is selling. You like defense as much as I do and I bet you also like a disciplined offense as much as I do. The two go hand in hand.

He simply cannot cry about defense yet rush to put Murphy into the lineup for maximum minutes. That in and of itself is a mixed message.

It's really hard to blame the players for being selfish when O'Brien is screaming to 'attack' on every play and wants quick shots. It's really hard to even get a read on the players because they are being asked to play an undisciplined offense, full of flaws, and without the talent level to ever overcome the fundamental flaws of the system. And then the things that does to the defense makes it a no-brainer that it's a losing system for these players.

There's no way not to blame the coach for players being confused en masse... And there's no way not to blame the coach when he's preaching a system that would be hard-pressed to win a title with Lebron, Kobe, Wade... etc in the lineup.

So when I read there's a lack of effort and that players are playing confused I think: No sh--....
What did the front office expect?

Bball
01-21-2010, 01:44 PM
I dunno, once the Pacers started making the comeback in the 4th last night, they all got a little selfish.

I know Watson came down a took a pull up jumper and missed, as did Dunleavy. Watson and Murphy both shot a questionable 3 during that run as well.

Danny does that throughout the game, and though Dahntay shot well last night, some of his one on one mid range pull ups are forced as well.

I hate when any player forces a shot, but I hate it even more when it's a player who's never been known to be a scorer/shooter


But that is what O'Brien's mixed message undisciplined system preaches. There's never a reason to value a possession. It's always 'attack attack'... quick shots... And that message leads to bad shots. ...and points the other way.

Peck
01-21-2010, 01:45 PM
I wonder if Mike was thinking and preparing this speech while he was on the floor. That would explain the solid defensive effort he gave as Jason Williams scored an easy unimpeded two off of the fast break. I mean Mike really could not concentrate on both, could he.

I say this next part in all seriousness. I would rather watch Jermaine O'Neal jack up turn around fade away shots all game than see what Mike Dunleavy did on that defensive play.

I'm sorry but that was disgusting to me.

I know that many of you will consider this a stretch but at that point in time I became infuriated with O'Brien. He gets mad at Roy for just about any little thing and has zero problem calling him out, benching him or whatever. But Mike does this and this isn't the first time, and its play on.

Which just leads me to believe that he can talk about defense all he wants, but until I see an established pattern that shows me he won't allow Murphy or Dunleavy to literally take defensive plays off I will continue to believe that he truly values offense far more.

able
01-21-2010, 01:54 PM
The Sky is Falling !!!!!!



I agree with bball (and Pek but that is nothing new)

BRushWithDeath
01-21-2010, 01:57 PM
Danny Granger, Troy Murphy, and Mike Dunleavy are all guilty of extremely selfish offensive play with next to no effort defensively. Granger in particular. These are supposed to be our 3 best players. It's a miracle we've won 14 games.

JohnnyBGoode
01-21-2010, 01:58 PM
People you are acting like a bunch of first graders.

Here is what I see going on here, Peck says it's Dun, Able says it's Troy, and you name them says it's Obie. Sounds like a playground point the finger at the other guy type of logic. My guy Roy better not get benched, why doesn't OBie play Mcboob, Tyler ear infection must be more thatn what they are telling us, Troy steals rebounds and on and on and on. Geesh people get a grip, this team just doesn't have enough talent to be world beaters and all the finger pointing and player blaming is not going to change the Pacers into anything but bottom feeders.

Of course it's Troy's fault, problem solved.

BRushWithDeath
01-21-2010, 02:00 PM
Of course it's Troy's fault, problem solved.

He's a major part of it Country Boy.

Hicks
01-21-2010, 02:10 PM
I think Jim supports veteran players almost to a fault. I think this is his way of showing respect to the players and in turn keeping the team together. I think he does value defense (to a point), but he feels he can only take that out on the rookies because he doesn't want to upset the vets (which, let's face it, in this league, may not be as dumb as it sounds; a lot of coddled egos in this league).

As for playing selfishly, I immediately think of Dahntay Jones, and I could easily throw in Danny Granger himself. I don't know about Troy.

Hicks
01-21-2010, 02:11 PM
People you are acting like a bunch of first graders.

Here is what I see going on here, Peck says it's Dun, Able says it's Troy, and you name them says it's Obie. Sounds like a playground point the finger at the other guy type of logic. My guy Roy better not get benched, why doesn't OBie play Mcboob, Tyler ear infection must be more thatn what they are telling us, Troy steals rebounds and on and on and on. Geesh people get a grip, this team just doesn't have enough talent to be world beaters and all the finger pointing and player blaming is not going to change the Pacers into anything but bottom feeders.

Of course it's Troy's fault, problem solved.

Making the same points over and over again while being childish enough to label and/or make fun of others? Sounds like a 1st grader to me.

Brad8888
01-21-2010, 02:18 PM
People you are acting like a bunch of first graders.

Here is what I see going on here, Peck says it's Dun, Able says it's Troy, and you name them says it's Obie. Sounds like a playground point the finger at the other guy type of logic. My guy Roy better not get benched, why doesn't OBie play Mcboob, Tyler ear infection must be more thatn what they are telling us, Troy steals rebounds and on and on and on. Geesh people get a grip, this team just doesn't have enough talent to be world beaters and all the finger pointing and player blaming is not going to change the Pacers into anything but bottom feeders.

Of course it's Troy's fault, problem solved.

Obviously no one expects them to be world beaters. The rosiest of projections here tended to be 45 wins or less, with an average of about 39 or so during the preseason, and many here being more accurate than the average in expecting less than 35.

What is alarming is the lack of progress and / or regression of the team overall as well as for the individual players. There are so many different directions to point fingers that it is impossible to figure out where to point them, so the easiest ones to find tend to be the ones that get harped on the most.

Yes, we are all tired of *****ing and moaning, and we all have our favorites that we either defend or bash.

I just hope that enough of us continue to care about posting at all that the board doesn't suffer in quality of posting, quantity of pertinent information, as well as the differences of opinion that is so nice to have from everybody here.

odeez
01-21-2010, 02:34 PM
Nice Post!

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2010/01/obrien_goes_off.html


"I think sometimes it can be attributed to effort, other times it can be attributed to understanding what we're trying to do,"


"It seems like we have a hard time following through what we're told to do on a daily and weekly basis.


"We're always playing catch up. Certainly more effort and desire will help that, but at some point we have to start figuring things out and know where we're supposed to be."

Sounds to me like Dun is speaking about the team as a whole. It is more dramatic to speculate that he is talking about one player. If he is, hopefully he is addressing it in the locker room or on the court. He should, he is a veteran player, he should have a leading voice on the team. Though I speculate he doesn't get ton of respect, because he hasn't won in NBA, same goes for Troy (again speculation).

I do like Dun as a player and have been giving him a pass because of his knee. But I view him and his contract has a big road block to us moving forward. I just don't see him as a game changer at this point. He could be a valuable piece to a team competing for a title, but not a young team like ours.

I like that JOB got in their butts. I would rather him show some fire to motivate than not. Though I still think he's gone at the end of the season. I don't blame him for all the teams problems; the blame can go around to everyone.

But what I still can't believe is that we have for the second straight season a starting pg sitting on the bench. 8 million dollars going to waste, plus TINS money weighing us down. No wonder we aren't very good.

Not much we can do till all that money comes off the books so we can bring in new talent and maybe a top 5 player from the draft this year (hope).

To me all this talk and speculation is just filler, until we either trade or let expire, the deals of Murph, Dun, and Ford. Plus the fact Tins money is still on our books for this year (I believe it isn't next year). Once these things happen I will be able to be emotional involved again.

JohnnyBGoode
01-21-2010, 03:01 PM
He's a major part of it Country Boy.

OK Peck;)

JohnnyBGoode
01-21-2010, 03:07 PM
Making the same points over and over again while being childish enough to label and/or make fun of others? Sounds like a 1st grader to me.

Not at all, I am responding to the same points being made over and over and over.. Maybe I should have said that many are acting like a bunch of cats on a hot tin roof.

90'sNBARocked
01-21-2010, 03:09 PM
I wonder if Mike was thinking and preparing this speech while he was on the floor. That would explain the solid defensive effort he gave as Jason Williams scored an easy unimpeded two off of the fast break. I mean Mike really could not concentrate on both, could he.

I say this next part in all seriousness. I would rather watch Jermaine O'Neal jack up turn around fade away shots all game than see what Mike Dunleavy did on that defensive play.

I'm sorry but that was disgusting to me.

I know that many of you will consider this a stretch but at that point in time I became infuriated with O'Brien. He gets mad at Roy for just about any little thing and has zero problem calling him out, benching him or whatever. But Mike does this and this isn't the first time, and its play on.

Which just leads me to believe that he can talk about defense all he wants, but until I see an established pattern that shows me he won't allow Murphy or Dunleavy to literally take defensive plays off I will continue to believe that he truly values offense far more.

the bottom line is their is no stability to anything this guy does.
he has completely lost the team, and the guys have clearly packed it in
I dont think even Obie can figure Obie out

McKeyFan
01-21-2010, 03:15 PM
I couldn't find a postgame thread so I'll put this here:

In our victory over Orlando:

Hibbert: 35 minutes
Murphy: 0 minutes

In our blowout loss to Orlando:

Murphy: 35 minutes
Hibbert: 18 minutes


I don't really care if Roy knew where to go on the court or not. I think Obie's decisions are terrible, and I am angry about it.

Of course the team is in chaos.

PR07
01-21-2010, 03:33 PM
Players can point fingers all they want, but the fact of the matter is, is that this team really isn't that good. We have Granger and a bunch of guys who would be good backups, but probably not starters on a contending team. I mean Earl Watson is our starting PG!

Hibbert and Rush have shown flashes (much more Roy this season), but they aren't quite ready to be consistent key contributors yet. Murphy and Dunleavy are nice players, but when they're called to be your #2 and #3 best players, you're in trouble.

That being said, Dunleavy, Murphy, and even Granger need to get better defensively or get out of town. Right now, they're largely all one-way players, and you can't really have three players in your lineup who do that. Good defense leads to good offense.

Mr. Sobchak
01-21-2010, 03:34 PM
People you are acting like a bunch of first graders.

Here is what I see going on here, Peck says it's Dun, Able says it's Troy, and you name them says it's Obie. Sounds like a playground point the finger at the other guy type of logic. My guy Roy better not get benched, why doesn't OBie play Mcboob, Tyler ear infection must be more thatn what they are telling us, Troy steals rebounds and on and on and on. Geesh people get a grip, this team just doesn't have enough talent to be world beaters and all the finger pointing and player blaming is not going to change the Pacers into anything but bottom feeders.

Of course it's Troy's fault, problem solved.

[yt]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mIT64KpXRK4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mIT64KpXRK4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[yt]

BillS
01-21-2010, 03:53 PM
I couldn't find a postgame thread so I'll put this here:

In our victory over Orlando:

Hibbert: 35 minutes
Murphy: 0 minutes

In our blowout loss to Orlando:

Murphy: 35 minutes
Hibbert: 18 minutes


I don't really care if Roy knew where to go on the court or not. I think Obie's decisions are terrible, and I am angry about it.

Of course the team is in chaos.

In our victory over Orlando, Hibbert pwned Howard. In our loss, Howard pwned Hibbert.

Hicks
01-21-2010, 03:59 PM
In our victory over Orlando, Hibbert pwned Howard. In our loss, Howard pwned Hibbert.

We also went to Roy in the post a lot less.

JohnnyBGoode
01-21-2010, 03:59 PM
I couldn't find a postgame thread so I'll put this here:

In our victory over Orlando:

Hibbert: 35 minutes
Murphy: 0 minutes

In our blowout loss to Orlando:

Murphy: 35 minutes
Hibbert: 18 minutes


I don't really care if Roy knew where to go on the court or not. I think Obie's decisions are terrible, and I am angry about it.

Of course the team is in chaos.

Simplistic viewpoint.

JohnnyBGoode
01-21-2010, 04:00 PM
We also went to Roy in the post a lot less.

And if we had it would have been much worse.

Unclebuck
01-21-2010, 04:02 PM
I couldn't find a postgame thread so I'll put this here:

In our victory over Orlando:

Hibbert: 35 minutes
Murphy: 0 minutes

In our blowout loss to Orlando:

Murphy: 35 minutes
Hibbert: 18 minutes


I don't really care if Roy knew where to go on the court or not. I think Obie's decisions are terrible, and I am angry about it.

Of course the team is in chaos.


You are going to have to explain in more detail than that. I mean do you really think that was the difference in the game. Might it have soemthing to do with how great Howard played last night. Magic played well in one game bad in the other, the pacers were the exact opposite. OK I feel like I'm being pulled back into the same type of thing as the 5 games in November thing.

I mean really, do I need to explain this, really?


Seriously though, this is all that I needed to post.
Plus/minus for last night
Roy - (-22) - the worst on the team
Troy - (+1) - the second best on the team

.

Hicks
01-21-2010, 04:02 PM
And if we had it would have been much worse.

Okay? "Roy's inconsistent, so let's not even try going to him very much." Is that what you want?

JohnnyBGoode
01-21-2010, 04:04 PM
Okay? "Roy's inconsistent, so let's not even try going to him very much." Is that what you want?

It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Hicks
01-21-2010, 04:05 PM
It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Last night Roy's touches were a lot closer to "nothing" than "all."

Do you prefer that, do you think he should get the ball more often than he did last night in the low block, or do you think he should get even less looks down there?

odeez
01-21-2010, 04:14 PM
I think Roy needs to play more, he is our center of the future! He has grown so much this year and will continue to do so... If he is making mistakes now and then, it's ok, it is only his second year in the league. Obviously I am high on Hibbert now, because of his play of late, it seems like JOB pulls him too early sometimes. Leave him in there, and let him continue to grow. He has shown he can pass the ball to open players and is becoming a consistant threat in the post.

I could careless if he is making mistakes, being out of position or what have you. He needs to be on the floor. I know we need to be small sometimes depending on matchups. But when I would prefer he be out there in as many game situations as possible going forward.

JohnnyBGoode
01-21-2010, 04:18 PM
Last night Roy's touches were a lot closer to "nothing" than "all."

Do you prefer that, do you think he should get the ball more often than he did last night in the low block, or do you think he should get even less looks down there?

No I don't believe the Pacers should go into a game with any preconcieved number of looks that Roy should get. Nor do I believe that Danny should be looking to shoot 25 times a game. Each game is different and should be treated that way. If Roy shows that he can score on his man than yes he should get all of the touches he can handle, however if it is obvious he is getting eaten alive than yes the bench is the right place for him.

odeez
01-21-2010, 04:31 PM
No I don't believe the Pacers should go into a game with any preconcieved number of looks that Roy should get. Nor do I believe that Danny should be looking to shoot 25 times a game. Each game is different and should be treated that way. If Roy shows that he can score on his man than yes he should get all of the touches he can handle, however if it is obvious he is getting eaten alive than yes the bench is the right place for him.

Just wondering who has eaten him alive of late? Again remembering that he is only in his second year. Yes, Howard played well against him last game, but Howard is argubly the best center in the league, it's hard for anyone to guard him. Roy has handled himself pretty well against opposing BIGS of late. I actual like that we can throw it to him and count on him making a good decision, whether to pass or shoot.

McKeyFan
01-21-2010, 05:02 PM
OK I feel like I'm being pulled back into the same type of thing as the 5 games in November thing.


Good, because they are related.

In answer to your question, Roy should be getting 30+ minutes a game, every game, regardless of his particular performance that night.

He should be getting lots of touches down low, early and often, every game, all game, regardless of his particular performance that night.

Roy has demonstrated his effectiveness down low. He has earned the right to have a bad night. After, say, five bad nights in a row, then maybe you can start yanking him around and jacking with his confidence.

In a game against the best center in the league where he recently showed him up, it is unconscionable from a basketball perspective and from a human decency perspective not to let him give it a go the entire game to see if he can be effective against him again.

JOS plays favorites, has double standards, talks out of both sides of his mouth, reads stats instead of people, and refuses to bow to common sense.

Naptown_Seth
01-21-2010, 05:07 PM
Best locker room ever. Or one of the best, or one of the best in years.

They told us something like that. Remember that was one point a lot of us brought up when Jack and Ford got into it.

Naptown_Seth
01-21-2010, 05:16 PM
Personally, I think Dunleavy's game is more dependent on the team playing cohesively, and therefore is hurt more than anyone else when things go off the rails. That being said, I also think he tends to deflect - a lot - and when he struggles, he takes it out on those around him. An understandable, but not particularly desirable, trait.
Yes, and I actually think Danny has been the same way.

Maybe they are pointing fingers at each other. ;) I mean Danny looked pretty poor in recent games and Dun has just been a wreck mostly. Neither are exactly burning up the defense.

I do think that DJones does not appear to be playing in sync with either of them right now, and previously he, Danny and Rush did seem to have a connection going.



I wish I could remember, but there was a defensive breakdown where Dun appeared to be upset with someone in the last 2 games. I noticed kinda at the time, but obviously not close enough to remember who it was.


I also agree with Putty, keep it in house. I'm fine with the quotes as they are, but don't go any further. We don't need to know, and frankly some of the problems should be evident on the court.

90'sNBARocked
01-21-2010, 05:23 PM
In our victory over Orlando, Hibbert pwned Howard. In our loss, Howard pwned Hibbert.

Yep

Both owned each other at home

refs favor home teams

Hicks
01-21-2010, 05:26 PM
Best locker room ever. Or one of the best, or one of the best in years.

They told us something like that. Remember that was one point a lot of us brought up when Jack and Ford got into it.

Best locker room in that no one hates each other, no one fights regularly, etc. That's a fair and true statement to the best of my knowledge.

Doesn't mean the basketball chemistry is there.

BillS
01-21-2010, 05:26 PM
Best locker room ever. Or one of the best, or one of the best in years.

They told us something like that. Remember that was one point a lot of us brought up when Jack and Ford got into it.

I think you are still conflating all of the different meanings of "chemistry" and "locker room atmosphere".

Teammates having a heated discussion does not mean they hate each other and can't play together. Similarly, teammates liking each other doesn't mean they are on the same page on the court. Teammates can say what they think without it being a way to get under someone else's skin, but that varies from year to year and person to person.

I get really tired of the idea that the only good locker room is one where all players and coaches respond to reporters with "no comment", because their teammates are too fragile to have anyone talk about it when things are going badly.

Naptown_Seth
01-21-2010, 05:28 PM
My bad, I thought Carsyle was here for 3.

Buck, do you remeber Bird saying something like the players tune out the coach after the 3rd year?

By the way though big difference between obie and RC , RC actually won games and showed promise
Carlisle had an ECF, 2nd round, first round, and then a missed playoffs.

The bad season that got him fired featured the team at .500 and playing well enough to get into the playoffs. This wasn't good enough so management caved to sponsers and did the GSW deal to get Jackson out of here in a panic.

The team finished out the rest of the year well below .500 and Rick was blamed. He couldn't have "lost them after 3 years" because a good portion of the key players hadn't been coached by him for 3 years. Dun and Troy just showed up in fact.

So we were told Rick was to blame and that the GSW deal was sound, yet the W-L since then tells the story, as does the W-L before and after out in Oakland.

If Rick was fired for losing for half a season with a core much like this one, then certainly it's a joke to let JOB lose at a similar rate for 3 of them. Rick had top 5 COY finishes twice in Indy, he had a history that said he just might know what he's doing.

JOB has earned none of that and done nothing more than what Rick did to warrant more tolerance.


BTW, which players can tune JOB out after 3 years: Danny, Dun, Troy, Foster.

The 3 year window was just a cheap excuse for Bird to move back to FLA and get away from coaching. Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich laugh at the 3 year plan. Lots of coaches have won a lot of games in their 4th or 5th year with a team.

You lose players when they stop buying what you are selling. This is why Tim Floyd could lose a team in 3 months rather than 3 years.

Anthem
01-21-2010, 05:28 PM
Best locker room ever. Or one of the best, or one of the best in years.

They told us something like that.
:laugh: Oh man, I wish we could go back and pull that thread up.

Sookie
01-21-2010, 05:30 PM
You know what disturbes me.

The three guys who are supposedly the leaders, Danny, Dahntay,and Murphy, are pointing fingers instead of looking at themselves.

Dunleavy was upset about the defense breaking down! Dunleavy was..how often is it him that is responsible for it?

I remember last year, Uconn played Pitt and lost. A.J. came out and said it was his fault. That he should have done more. He took the blame.

And that's what good leaders are supposed to do. You take the blame when your team fails, and you give credit to your teammates when you win.

And we have Dun, Danny, and Dahntay pointing fingers. Great. Maybe if those three showed the effort and intensity (Which to Dahntay's credit, he tries to most of the time) and teamwork that good teams should have, the rest of the players would follow. You know like leaders are supposed to do.

And that goes to the coach too. Maybe he should stop his scapegoat stuff (cough Roy and Rush cough) and take a good look in the mirror. Instead of blaming the team, look at himself first.

Naptown_Seth
01-21-2010, 05:37 PM
Well it sounds like they are not pleased with each other and that there's got to be a little cold shoulder stuff going on somewhere.

If I have a really good friend, I don't say the things that Dun or Danny did. Not only that, but my friendship and comfort level would make me MORE open to name him.

"Bob" really couldn't find his shot tonight, he was struggling and I felt like he and I weren't on the same page. But "Bob" is sharp and I trust him, so we'll get it worked out. We have to if we are going to win, and there's no reason why we can't get on the same page.

That's the kind of criticism a friend might make. I mean how much can you like a guy if you think of him as SELFISH, or unable to follow directions? I've been on a lot of teams and I didn't really like the guys that I thought those kinds of things about. People tend to like people who think a bit like them, follow similar logic and ideals. Different sure, but not radically so in terms of logical thinking. So how can I like a guy who doesn't see the sport anywhere close to how I do?

Maybe I didn't fight with them, but I didn't get along with them. I didn't like their game and I thought they were hurting the team. I would grumble with my teammates when we had a team killer like that playing with us.

That's not the same as playing with guys that just weren't as good. I felt sympathy for them or appreciated their desire to play regardless; I tried to work with them, and trusted them to at least bring what they could to the game. I could adjust my play to accomodate them and it wouldn't bug me too much. I usually wouldn't even think of them as the reason we lost because all teams have different talent levels.

But the dumb a** OF that insists on throwing to the plate with a runner coming to 2nd because he's so great, no use for that guy ever. No respect, and if there are too many of them then the clubhouse sucks because guys don't like dealing with that crap.

McKeyFan
01-21-2010, 05:47 PM
As I mull over it, I'm thinking maybe Dun was talking about Danny.

Danny knew it, and he gave some "we" comments about missing assignments on BOTH sides of the floor.

Hmmmmmm.

DaveP63
01-21-2010, 05:50 PM
Add TJ because he's not playing and that's 8.

That leaves Murphy, Rush, Granger, DJones, Watson and Roy.

I don't think it's Roy simply because of his personality. You tell him something, where to be, what to do... he'll work on it, no problem.

Rush? What's he doing wrong? He rarely looks for his shot, and he's solid on defense.

I don't think he's talking about Murph since he's probably Dun's closest friend on the team from their GS days. If it was that big of an issue, they'd handle it privately and work it out.

So Watson, DJones or Granger? My money's on Dahntay. Just my hunch...

Might be...But I'm going to go ahead and say it. I think it's Granger. I might be full of it, but if you go back and look at how they played when DG was out, I though it was very reminiscent of last year. Maybe loosing is just wearing on people. If I had to pick, I think I'd keep DG. At least for now.

Naptown_Seth
01-21-2010, 10:53 PM
Blame and Finger Pointing are just the crybaby words for ACCOUNTABILITY.

Now maybe no one on the team wants to be accountable for the final product.

Maybe I'd like to also hear this "well, maybe we should stop blaming everyone and pointing fingers and accept that these doctors just didn't have enough talent to keep him from dying from a severe case of pink eye".

Saying a player just isn't good enough to win - NOT A COMPLIMENT and still "finger pointing". Which players aren't talented enough? I mean that's your opinion JBG, so let's hear the WHY behind that opinion. You've evaluated the talent, so which ones don't have it.

Hint - those are the ones we will then blame for the losing.

BlueNGold
01-21-2010, 11:45 PM
Add TJ because he's not playing and that's 8.

That leaves Murphy, Rush, Granger, DJones, Watson and Roy.

I don't think it's Roy simply because of his personality. You tell him something, where to be, what to do... he'll work on it, no problem.

Rush? What's he doing wrong? He rarely looks for his shot, and he's solid on defense.

I don't think he's talking about Murph since he's probably Dun's closest friend on the team from their GS days. If it was that big of an issue, they'd handle it privately and work it out.

So Watson, DJones or Granger? My money's on Dahntay. Just my hunch...

I think he's talking about Dahntay. I think the selfish part is about Dahntay too...not that I think he is being selfish necessarily. I do know that Dahntay got into a tit for tat with Jamaal Mcgloire at Miami. But the fact remains, D Jones is scoring more effectively than most of the team of late.

On the other side of the coin, I think Dahntay is tired of Dun and Murphy's poor defense. ...and he's also tired of JOb putting bad defenders on the floor. This all goes back to the statement Dahntay said after JOb stopped the winning streak...;) Dahntay said the winning "was not luck."...as if Dahntay could tell you why they were winning, but had to bite his tongue.

So, IMHO, this is about Dahntay thinking Murphy should be on the bench...and he's not happy that JOb refuses to plant him. At the same time, the other players know how he feels. I think I do recall Dun saying he's only used to playing with Murphy....IOW, they are buds and this is part of having his back.

I really think that's the issue in a nut shell.

jhondog28
01-21-2010, 11:54 PM
I think he's talking about Dahntay. I think the selfish part is about Dahntay too...not that I think he is being selfish necessarily. I do know that Dahntay got into a tit for tat with Jamaal Mcgloire at Miami. But the fact remains, D Jones is scoring more effectively than most of the team of late.

On the other side of the coin, I think Dahntay is tired of Dun and Murphy's poor defense. ...and he's also tired of JOb putting bad defenders on the floor. This all goes back to the statement Dahntay said after JOb stopped the winning streak...;) Dahntay said the winning "was not luck."...as if Dahntay could tell you why they were winning, but had to bite his tongue.

So, IMHO, this is about Dahntay thinking Murphy should be on the bench...and he's not happy that JOb refuses to plant him. At the same time, the other players know how he feels. I think I do recall Dun saying he's only used to playing with Murphy....IOW, they are buds and this is part of having his back.

I really think that's the issue in a nut shell.

I will say this if Dun and Murph were best buds Murph would have been at Duns wedding and Duns best friend on the team is Jeff Foster who was at his wedding. Just saying.