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Pacersfan46
01-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Everyone assumes we're making a trade to clear money next year so we can stay under the luxury tax. It makes sense.

However does anyone believe it's possible that the Pacers are shoving TJ Ford so far down the depth chart that they're hoping they can coax him into becoming a free agent after this season is over to save the money that way? Just in case they can't make a trade.

I have a hard time believing he would opt out, but if he doesn't play a single minute the 2nd half of the season .... maybe there's a chance? Maybe it's wishful thinking ... I don't know.

-- Steve --

McKeyFan
01-16-2010, 01:53 PM
Is there any precedent for a player doing this kind of thing?

CableKC
01-16-2010, 01:54 PM
I doubt that he'd give up $8+ mil....he's not going to get that much in the FA Market in the offseason.

At best, I'm hoping for a buyout....but realistically.....I'm guessing that the Pacers are trying to "Tinsley" Ford....but are doing it the right way by learning what they should have and should not have done when it came to Tinsley ( letting him practice, show up at games, etc ). I just hope that he doesn't do or say anything stupid during his downtime.

Sookie
01-16-2010, 02:00 PM
It depends.

Ford needs to look at his options. Is there a team willing to pay him 4M, and he gets to play?

Players like money, but they also like playing. And yes, 8M is a ton of money, but so isn't 4m. He knows his value will just go down if he's sitting on the bench. Perhaps finding a team willing to take a chance on him, and utilizing him in a way that he's successful, will be a reason for him to move on.

Brad8888
01-16-2010, 02:06 PM
Interesting thought. I wish the Pacers luck if that is the case. Go Bird and Morway, drive him away and save at least some dough!

Bball
01-16-2010, 02:18 PM
5 mil for 2 years is more than 8 mil for 1 year....

4 mil for 3 years is even more than that.... Make that 3rd year a player option and it gets even more interesting.

I don't think it's a total foregone conclusion he'd take his option. Particularly once he knows he's no longer part of the future and won't be playing. I think the odds are he WOULD take it... but if there's any chance he wouldn't it would be from all the pine splinters in his butt from the bench. That would be the Pacers best chance to get him to not take it.

And is there a middle ground here... Is a 50% buyout possible?

I don't think he's being "Tinsley'ed". Tinsley could no longer be a Pacer due to his attitude and actions on and off the court that were impacting ticket sales AND team image (and in corporate world that is big since they buy advertising, blocks of tix, and suites).

Los Angeles
01-16-2010, 02:26 PM
PGs are always in demand just like big men. Ford would be fine if he didn't take the option.

BRushWithDeath
01-16-2010, 02:27 PM
There is not a snow ball's chance in hell he doesn't take his option. You don't leave $8 million on the table. No chance.

Hicks
01-16-2010, 02:30 PM
While it's more likely than not he'll take the option, odds are good someone will pay him decent money to be somewhere else, and to, you know, actually play in the games. Happiness plays a role here, and I feel comfortable saying TJ would certainly rather play than not, and he'll have a better chance of doing that somewhere else with someone who goes out of their way to sign him as opposed to here.

d_c
01-16-2010, 02:33 PM
Everyone assumes we're making a trade to clear money next year so we can stay under the luxury tax. It makes sense.

However does anyone believe it's possible that the Pacers are shoving TJ Ford so far down the depth chart that they're hoping they can coax him into becoming a free agent after this season is over to save the money that way? Just in case they can't make a trade.

I have a hard time believing he would opt out, but if he doesn't play a single minute the 2nd half of the season .... maybe there's a chance? Maybe it's wishful thinking ... I don't know.


At the end of last season, Don Nelson put Jamal Crawford more or less on shelf. And then he told him straight up that if Crawford wouldn't opt out of the final year of his deal, they would try to trade him.

Of course Crawford wound up not opting out and anyone with a brain would've done the same thing.

It's unlikely anyone at this point is going to give TJ Ford a longterm contract that makes it worthwhile to leave $8.5M on the table. Not happening.

duke dynamite
01-16-2010, 02:34 PM
That's one of the characteristics of TJ that I am a fan of, he always wants to play. Argument aside, that could be the driving catalyst in him hanging it up here, because someone wants him...for the right price.

d_c
01-16-2010, 02:35 PM
And is there a middle ground here... Is a 50% buyout possible?


I think even Tinsley got 66-70%, IIRC

himikey
01-16-2010, 03:12 PM
Hmm... they benched him because they want him to opt out?

Guaranteed money is one thing, but TJ may opt out and take less money to get some PT. He worked his way out of Toronto because he refused to come off the bench. Now he's not playing at all? That may send him off the deep end.

Anthem
01-16-2010, 03:24 PM
There is not a snow ball's chance in hell he doesn't take his option. You don't leave $8 million on the table. No chance.
Agreed.

If there's not a market for him right now (and that seems to be the case) then what makes anyone think there will be this summer?

He won't opt out.

Bball
01-16-2010, 03:24 PM
I think even Tinsley got 66-70%, IIRC

Point being that if he knows he won't play here, hates leaving 8 mil on the table... but really really wants to get PT.... If he'd agree to a 4 mil buyout (which is even if he picks up his option), he would only need to find another team to pay him say 3mil per yer for 2 guaranteed years to come out ahead. Or even 2 mil per year for 2 guaranteed years and he'd break even (altho over 2 years, not one) AND get playing time. Maybe even an opportunity to start.

Ford's option is not simply to take the 8mil or make nothing. It's more a question of how badly he wants to play and his market value compared to that 8 mil in one year versus what a new multiple year contract would pay in total (And besides its monetary value he'd also have to figure what playing time is worth to him).

Bball
01-16-2010, 03:27 PM
Agreed.

If there's not a market for him right now (and that seems to be the case) then what makes anyone think there will be this summer?

He won't opt out.

Nobody wants him at 8mil (plus I guess half of this year)... and what they'd have to give up to get him (and what the Pacers would accept).

All bets are off if a team could sign him straight up. Doubtful anyone pays 8 mil per year... but the options like I listed in the previous post don't sound that far-fetched.

Anthem
01-16-2010, 03:37 PM
Nobody wants him at 8mil (plus I guess half of this year)... and what they'd have to give up to get him (and what the Pacers would accept).

All bets are off if a team could sign him straight up. Doubtful anyone pays 8 mil per year... but the options like I listed in the previous post don't sound that far-fetched.
Why should he take 0 and 5 when he could take 8 and 5?

Unless he's absolutely desperate to play, there's no way he should be walking away from that kind of money. He's young yet, and has time to get his "one big contract." Better to play it out with the Pacers, show he's a good team chemistry guy, and wait for somebody to sprain an ankle.

Bball
01-16-2010, 03:45 PM
Why should he take 0 and 5 when he could take 8 and 5?

.

Because sitting on the shelf, especially a yr and half, is maybe not good for his market value...

Please note that early on I said the biggest odds were he'd take the 8mil. I'm only disagreeing with those that say there's 'no chance' he'd opt out. It's at least something he'd have to think seriously about. Also, there's some potential for a cheap buyout (after he'd take the option) because that could really close the money gap AND get him back on the court.

Diener would've been a fool not to take his option... OTOH... I wouldn't think Ford would be a fool to not take his.

Peck
01-16-2010, 04:19 PM
BTW this may not be the thread for it but I don't know where else to put it.

But while I am not a fan of T.J. Ford's game I do think that the public benching and getting DNP-CD and even deactivated is a little harsh.

Unless something happened behind the scenes and there was a blowup or something we don't know about then I think the way we are handling this is a little over board.

Don't start him, sure.

Promote A.J. to the backup, sure.

But to make it so T.J. can't play even in a blowout (winning or losing) just strikes me as wrong.

As far as I know this isn't Jamaal Tinsley where he and the coach got into an argument. The first few games he was benched he was rooting for the player from the sidelines and in fact was giving one of the refs. an earfull at the last home game. So it's not like he has sulked or gone away.

Again I am not a real fan of his game but I don't think he quite deserves this.

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 04:24 PM
Why should he take 0 and 5 when he could take 8 and 5?

Unless he's absolutely desperate to play, there's no way he should be walking away from that kind of money. He's young yet, and has time to get his "one big contract." Better to play it out with the Pacers, show he's a good team chemistry guy, and wait for somebody to sprain an ankle.

That's by far his best bet if he's smart. No way will he ever make 8M a year ever again...but he's good enough to snag something in the 3-5M range. If he plays nicely with the Pacers, he may get someone to pay him close to 5M. If he's a jerk, he will be lucky to get 3M. Yes, these factors matter in today's NBA.

Sookie
01-16-2010, 04:25 PM
BTW this may not be the thread for it but I don't know where else to put it.

But while I am not a fan of T.J. Ford's game I do think that the public benching and getting DNP-CD and even deactivated is a little harsh.

Unless something happened behind the scenes and there was a blowup or something we don't know about then I think the way we are handling this is a little over board.

Don't start him, sure.

Promote A.J. to the backup, sure.

But to make it so T.J. can't play even in a blowout (winning or losing) just strikes me as wrong.

As far as I know this isn't Jamaal Tinsley where he and the coach got into an argument. The first few games he was benched he was rooting for the player from the sidelines and in fact was giving one of the refs. an earfull at the last home game. So it's not like he has sulked or gone away.

Again I am not a real fan of his game but I don't think he quite deserves this.

JOB explained this, and after thinking about it, I agree with him.

His third string isn't going to get time in competitive games. His third string is Ford.

Ford is a veteran, and JOB felt like it would be disrespectful towards him to put him in garbage time.

We're a better team when he doesn't play. But at the same time, I think he seems like a nice guy, and I wish the Pacers could have traded him so he wasn't stuck on the bench.

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 04:34 PM
Because sitting on the shelf, especially a yr and half, is maybe not good for his market value...

Please note that early on I said the biggest odds were he'd take the 8mil. I'm only disagreeing with those that say there's 'no chance' he'd opt out. It's at least something he'd have to think seriously about. Also, there's some potential for a cheap buyout (after he'd take the option) because that could really close the money gap AND get him back on the court.

Diener would've been a fool not to take his option... OTOH... I wouldn't think Ford would be a fool to not take his.

Maybe not a fool, but I still consider it the wrong decision. Best case, this is the situation for him if he opts out:

3 years @5M/yr = 15 instead of 1 year @8M/yr + 2 years @3M/yr = 14M

I guess this is possible...but 8M in hand with the opportunity to take care of his body is an awfully good move for him IMO.

Will Galen
01-16-2010, 04:35 PM
Is there any precedent for a player doing this kind of thing?

I thought of that myself, but then came to the conclusion I was considering nonsense. No team is going to think a guy is going to give up $8.5 million if he's not unhappy. And right now he's not that unhappy. I've seen him on the bench smiling and laughing. I could see him backing up Price next year, and as such I think he would be pretty good.

And all those $4-5 million a year contracts should be there after next year too. All he has to do is set for half a season.

MyFavMartin
01-16-2010, 04:55 PM
He'll be expiring next year, so he'll be easier to move this summer.

vnzla81
01-16-2010, 05:04 PM
BTW this may not be the thread for it but I don't know where else to put it.

But while I am not a fan of T.J. Ford's game I do think that the public benching and getting DNP-CD and even deactivated is a little harsh.

Unless something happened behind the scenes and there was a blowup or something we don't know about then I think the way we are handling this is a little over board.

Don't start him, sure.

Promote A.J. to the backup, sure.

But to make it so T.J. can't play even in a blowout (winning or losing) just strikes me as wrong.

As far as I know this isn't Jamaal Tinsley where he and the coach got into an argument. The first few games he was benched he was rooting for the player from the sidelines and in fact was giving one of the refs. an earfull at the last home game. So it's not like he has sulked or gone away.

Again I am not a real fan of his game but I don't think he quite deserves this.

I have a feeling that he is been having issues with the coaching stuff or with the coach, that is maybe a reason of his benching, they just want to try to trade him and don't say anything about his attitude

Bball
01-16-2010, 05:18 PM
And all those $4-5 million a year contracts should be there after next year too. All he has to do is set for half a season.

Not if he sits all season next year. Being benched for 1.5yr has to potentially hurt his market value.

Which gets back to my point... He has a lot to consider. It's not a 'no-brainer' to take the 8mil and sit.... not if he really wants to play.

Assuming he's managed his money well, he's not starting with a bank account at zero. He can afford to make decisions that most can't imagine. And he wouldn't be making the choice of either zero or 8 mil next season. He'd get paid something from somewhere if he was a free agent.

Bball
01-16-2010, 05:20 PM
I think his 'benching' might have more to do with the impending trade deadline. They know they are going to trade him if at all possible and don't want him getting injured.

Tom White
01-16-2010, 07:50 PM
I have a feeling that he is been having issues with the coaching stuff or with the coach, that is maybe a reason of his benching, they just want to try to trade him and don't say anything about his attitude

The problem is, banishing him to the end of the bench raises all sorts of speculation about what the possible problem is. The same way it has many on this board wondering.

I agree with Peck. I sometimes think TPTB have a curious way of handling players. If it were me, I think I would be more prone to address it like this:

Reporter: So, coach, how come Ford is setting on the bench collecting dust? Is there a problem there?

Coach: No, not at all. What we have is a very skilled player, who really wants to play and help his team. The problem is two fold. One, his style of play does not really fit what we are currently trying to do. Secondly, we need to find out, right away, if AJ is going to be able to be a player for us. All told, I feel badly for TJ, but having him available if needed is a blessing, and he has been the ultimate pro about it all. We're very happy he is here. We just wish it was a better match.

Reporter: Coach, anybody ever tell you that you are full of it?

Coach: Yes, but I turned that problem over to Unclebuck. Haven't had that problem since.

MLB007
01-16-2010, 10:31 PM
Agreed.

If there's not a market for him right now (and that seems to be the case) then what makes anyone think there will be this summer?

He won't opt out.

Injuries happen. other teams give up on players JUST LIKE US!
Things change.............
70/30 he stays, but he could well get 4 mill for 3 years somewhere else and take it.

Will Galen
01-17-2010, 02:47 AM
[quote=Bball;946242]Not if he sits all season next year. Being benched for 1.5yr has to potentially hurt his market value.

That has no chance of happening unless it's do to injury!

Which gets back to my point... He has a lot to consider. It's not a 'no-brainer' to take the 8mil and sit.... not if he really wants to play.

The Pacers only have two point guards under contract for next year. And they don't have a lot of money to spend. If he's not traded he'll play, so in my opinion it is pretty much of a no brainer.

I don't know why any of you guys even think different!

mcampbellarch
01-17-2010, 04:30 AM
So my expectations that a basketball franchise is managed better than state government are not well placed.

Reckoner
01-17-2010, 04:57 AM
From an outsiders view it seems a bit odd.

If I were to assume that he'll take the player option, and that we're not re-signing Earl Watson, then IMHO the best thing to do would be:

1. Trade Watson before the deadline (without taking on any salary for next season - if we pick up anything worthwhile that's just a bonus - though maybe he could be used as sweetner with Murph or Foster)
2. Start AJ Price

And thus avoid a massive rift between player and coach/club that is likely to develop if this continues for the rest of the season, no matter how nice a guy TJ is. He actually plays pretty well off the bench anyway.

An issue I could see is lack of PG depth, but I'd still do it.

Anthem
01-17-2010, 07:17 AM
I think his 'benching' might have more to do with the impending trade deadline. They know they are going to trade him if at all possible and don't want him getting injured.
Now that's an interesting thought.

Unclebuck
01-17-2010, 08:25 AM
It is simple Ford wasn't getting the job done, Price needed minutes, watson is the best leader on the team. Pretty simle - it was a coaches decision that has nothing to do with almost everything mentioned in this entire thread. Sometimes the most logical and simple answer is the right onw