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Dr. Awesome
01-16-2010, 05:10 AM
Would you rather see the Pacers make the playoffs this year or get the 1st pick in the draft?

BRushWithDeath
01-16-2010, 05:18 AM
Even if the 1st pick were only a 5% chance that is better than the odds of making the playoffs.

31andonly
01-16-2010, 05:22 AM
If we don't finally get at least a top 5 pick, we'll have this discussion every year...

PaceBalls
01-16-2010, 06:50 AM
they aren't 50-50 propositions, so it is a bit of skewed poll. If I knew we were going to get John Wall if we won X amount of games and the ping pong balls would bounce around in the perfect place for the top pick, then yea...

But the chances of getting the number 1 are not so great. In fact, for where we are at now, I would say it is about a 5% or less possiblity if we keep the same pace. That is not good odds. It is like hoping to win by getting trips on the river, for a poker analogy.

So taking that into consideration, would you rather make the playoffs, or have a 5% chance at Wall.

Now maybe Favors or that kid from Lithuania will be hall of famers some day, who knows? I doubt it.. :p

Now, back to your regular scheduled wish thinking.

vnzla81
01-16-2010, 07:37 AM
Would you rather see the Pacers make the playoffs this year or get the 1st pick in the draft?

I don't think it has to be only the 1st pick in the draft, the pacers need a top 10th pick, the question should be more like, "do you prefer the pacers to make it to the playoffs or get a top ten draft pick and maybe Jhon Wall?"

cinotimz
01-16-2010, 07:48 AM
I don't think it has to be only the 1st pick in the draft, the pacers need a top 10th pick, the question should be more like, "do you prefer the pacers to make it to the playoffs or get a top ten draft pick and maybe Jhon Wall?"

Exactly.

Though even I might say Top 5 as that is a real possibility barring silly runs like we are currently on that only end up ruining our draft position and accomplish little else.

And has been stated, we stand a much much better chance of getting a top 5 pick than we do of making the playoffs.

Or you can look at it this way. Last year the top 7 picks were Blake Griffin, Thabeet, James Harden, Tyreke Evans, Ricky Rubio, Jonny Flynn, and Stephen Curry. This years draft is rumored to be a bit better than what was generally considered a weaker draft last year. We were 14-25 last year-just the same as this year. Would you rather have the result we had last year or would you rather have one of those 7 picks?

Seems simple, really.

mildlysane
01-16-2010, 08:52 AM
No way I am rooting for the Pacers to lose. (Be careful what you wish for). Go playoffs!!! If we give effort and really try and win, but lose and end up with the first pick...great! But no way do I advocate tanking. Karma frowns on this type of action.

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 10:34 AM
I find it odd that some people claim that you get better via trades. Others say you get better via the draft. I think both are good ways to improve...although for the Pacers, the draft has been more important.

For one, Danny Granger is our best player...and of course he was drafted. Reggie Miller, Rik Smits and Dale Davis all came via the draft. Roy Hibbert might be another well above average draft pick...although the jury is still out on that.

Other times we have obtained talent via trades. Dale Davis for JO. But keep in mind we only got JO because we drafted Dale.

Overall, I think the Pacers are probably more likely to improve via the draft. That's been the history folks....

Edit: As for Wall or the playoffs...I don't think it's close for this team. We need a lot more talent and Wall would be worth far more over the next 10 years than 1 trip to the playoffs. The fact is, with Wall we are likely to make the playoffs a lot more.

thefeistyone
01-16-2010, 10:34 AM
No way this should be close. If the pacers made the playoffs there is no way it would last long. I would take Wall in a second. That being said, if the pacers had the worst record in the league I'm not sure they are lucky enough to get a #1 pick

Putnam
01-16-2010, 10:47 AM
What Thingfish (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=946008&postcount=4) says is key here. The question is pure fantasy, but it is still a valid question.

Wall.

OakMoses
01-16-2010, 11:12 AM
Someone should run an alternate poll. Something like "Playoffs or 10% chance at John Wall."

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 11:16 AM
Someone should run an alternate poll. Something like "Playoffs or 10% chance at John Wall."

Maybe so, but as unlikely as drafting John Wall may be...it is still a valid question....although very easy to answer.

As for Playoffs or a 10% chance at John Wall...I'd take the playoffs.

As for Playoffs or a 50% chance at a top 5 pick...I'd take the pick.

As for Playoffs or a 50% chance at a top 10 pick...I'd take the playoffs.

Brad8888
01-16-2010, 11:25 AM
If we had a coaching staff that develops youth, then draft picks would be key to a solid future of consistently competitive performance. We absolutely do not have such a coaching staff in my opinion, and have little to no intention of concentrating on player development.

Therefore, our best bet is to do the very best we can, even to the point of making the playoffs (which is extremely unlikely, at best), and make our trading pieces look as attractive as possible while doing so, and in the process position ourselves in the best way possible to maximize the value we can receive in trades so that we may rebuild from the bottom that we reached a short time ago in the shortest time possible with whatever players the franchise feels are going to play whatever style that whatever coach we have in a couple of years likes to have his teams play.

Congratulations to them for making more progress recently than anyone has any right to expect over the last few games. Go Danny, Go Dun, and Go Murph! Secondarily, Go AJ, Go Brandon, Go Roy, and hopefully at some point Go Tyler!

Justin Tyme
01-16-2010, 11:45 AM
they aren't 50-50 propositions, so it is a bit of skewed poll. If I knew we were going to get John Wall if we won X amount of games and the ping pong balls would bounce around in the perfect place for the top pick, then yea...

But the chances of getting the number 1 are not so great. In fact, for where we are at now, I would say it is about a 5% or less possiblity if we keep the same pace. That is not good odds. It is like hoping to win by getting trips on the river, for a poker analogy.

So taking that into consideration, would you rather make the playoffs, or have a 5% chance at Wall.

Now maybe Favors or that kid from Lithuania will be hall of famers some day, who knows? I doubt it.. :p

Now, back to your regular scheduled wish thinking.


The thread states playoffs or "#1 pick". Ping pong balls have nothing to do with this thread. It's either or. Pick one, no varibles involved. Why make it harder than just pick option A or option B?

Justin Tyme
01-16-2010, 11:51 AM
Is there really a doubt? You take the #1 pick. The playoffs will come sooner and more often in the future than ever getting a #1 pick.

Putnam
01-16-2010, 11:53 AM
Someone should run an alternate poll. Something like "Playoffs or 10% chance at John Wall."


Playoffs.

BillS
01-16-2010, 12:52 PM
Playoffs or John Wall playing for the Las Vegas Pacers?

BRushWithDeath
01-16-2010, 01:07 PM
The only good thing about us making the playoffs is that I'd get to see LeBron in person for 2 more games. And we're already 4.5 games out of the 8th seed. We're not making that up. There is no chance.

JB24
01-16-2010, 01:16 PM
We've played the lightest schedule in the league, and we're at 14-25. For all the pro-tanking guys fretting over this mini winning streak, i'd say enjoy it- we might not be seeing another one for a while.

Mr_Smith
01-16-2010, 01:18 PM
It doesn't matter b/c they won't see the playoffs or the #1 pick. The pick will be beyond #10.

sportfireman
01-16-2010, 01:48 PM
what if John Wall is a bust???? so bust or playoffs??? what if we get in the playoffs and by some weird chance we make noise and go deep??? anything can happen.

Pacersfan46
01-16-2010, 01:51 PM
what if John Wall is a bust???? so bust or playoffs??? what if we get in the playoffs and by some weird chance we make noise and go deep??? anything can happen.

I think we have a better chance at getting the #1 pick than either of these "what ifs" to come to fruition.

Us beating Lebron in a playoff series with THIS team? The "Miracle on Ice" would have to take a backseat if that happens.

-- Steve --

sportfireman
01-16-2010, 01:54 PM
I find it odd that some people claim that you get better via trades. Others say you get better via the draft. I think both are good ways to improve...although for the Pacers, the draft has been more important.

For one, Danny Granger is our best player...and of course he was drafted. Reggie Miller, Rik Smits and Dale Davis all came via the draft. Roy Hibbert might be another well above average draft pick...although the jury is still out on that.

Other times we have obtained talent via trades. Dale Davis for JO. But keep in mind we only got JO because we drafted Dale.

Overall, I think the Pacers are probably more likely to improve via the draft. That's been the history folks....

Edit: As for Wall or the playoffs...I don't think it's close for this team. We need a lot more talent and Wall would be worth far more over the next 10 years than 1 trip to the playoffs. The fact is, with Wall we are likely to make the playoffs a lot more.

the vast mojority of players in the league get drafted........the draft is important to the NBA as a whole. we got JO because.............yep he was drafted.

sportfireman
01-16-2010, 01:59 PM
I think we have a better chance at getting the #1 pick than either of these "what ifs" to come to fruition.

Us beating Lebron in a playoff series with THIS team? The "Miracle on Ice" would have to take a backseat if that happens.

-- Steve --
i understand but what if we do land Wall and he's a bust???...... unless there's a 27 yr old Michael Jordan coming in that door in a Pacers uni.......1 player is not gonna save this orginization.

Sookie
01-16-2010, 02:04 PM
If it's a guaranteed #1 vs. First round playoff exit..I think it's pretty obvious which one is better.

Although, if it was playoffs vs Lottery -with a shot at John Wall- I'd actually be more inclined to say playoffs.

Pacersfan46
01-16-2010, 02:08 PM
i understand but what if we do land Wall and he's a bust???...... unless there's a 27 yr old Michael Jordan coming in that door in a Pacers uni.......1 player is not gonna save this orginization.

I'm afraid I find this to be terribly incorrect. One player in the NBA can make or break a team, especially at the PG position. The most important position on an NBA team as far as I'm concerned.

Not only that but we will have quite a bit of cap space in 2 summers. This place becomes a MUCH more friendly destination for free agents if you have a young and upcoming star, and Danny Granger to lure free agents to a winning situation. That is the biggest difference a player like John Wall can make for this team.

You can say "what if he's a bust" all you want, but history does show that odds are in favor of getting an impact player at the #1 spot in the draft. I'll take those odds. What if we get to the playoffs and our entire starting lineup gets injured in practice before they start? The "what ifs" can go both ways. So that's a moot point.

-- Steve --

Peck
01-16-2010, 02:08 PM
Playoffs or John Wall playing for the Las Vegas Pacers?

That's just as big a fantasy as the original question.

The mere fact that if we don't make the playoffs the team will move next season would indicate to me that we are moving anyway as the team would be so unstable that the income from a brief playoff appearance will not help.

We are nowhere near that and if we are then you might as well face the fact that the team IS moving.

I reject this theory.

However let me take your theory and expand on it.

Playoffs now, quick sweeping at the hands of let's say Orlando. Why Orlando? Because the Cavs have King James who will bring a legion of fans. Orlando will have a few fans in the house but nowhere near helping fill the field house. Local fans, if history has taught us anything, will not give a significant bump to the sales either so let's assume that the field house is 75% capacity. BTW, I do not believe that is unreasonable as I'm sure we both remember the playoff attendance in the first round from the early 90's.

Now after being swept in the first round we get let's just say the 15th pick in the draft. We use it to draft a player who may one day be a good player but is a few years away from contributing. Then next season comes around and our record is the same with no great changes coming from the trade front as the team has decided to let the contracts expire and see what they can do from there.

Another first round sweep.

Another mid first round pick however now we have free agent money out the @ss.

Ok, there are no marquee players but Bird is able to convince several nice mid level talents to join the club oh and both Murphy and Dunleavy have agree to stay with the club at much reduced contracts.

Talent doesn't mesh right away but as the season progresses they get better once again gaining the 8th seed.

Another first round sweep.

By this time the fan base has never gotten lower but has never gotten better. Now the owners are looking at 7-8 years of real actual loss of revenue.

Versus.

We somehow get lucky and get a top 3 pick this year. That player has major talent and while next season he is not the R.O.Y. or anything but it is recognized he will be a very good player for a very long time. The team does a little better next season with the better talent. The off season comes and some of the better players are willing to come here or even if it is just the mid level talent because they see a winning combo of Danny, Star rookie, Roy, Tyler and Price.

The following season we open up on a tear and start winning at about a 60% clip. Come December fans from around the state start to notice this and slowly but steadily the field house attendance begins to rise.

Second round of the playoffs.

The following season we are ranked as one of the top 10 teams in the league and our season ticket sales have started to climb.

Ok, mine was pure fantasy. But IMO less of a fantasy than saying that if we don't make the playoffs we are going to move.

BTW as to the original question, despite my above scenario, I will say this.

If we are winning and make the playoffs then I am all for it. However I don't want to be the one team that makes the playoffs because we were one game less worse than a team that wasn't really trying.

What I mean by that is if we play at least .500 ball the rest of the season then yes, let's do it.

I never root for failure and despite times I want a better more talented player I do attend and it is very hard at times to get motivated to go in the sub zero temps. to see a team you know is going to get blown out. So yes winning is more fun.

Lance George
01-16-2010, 02:11 PM
Playoffs or John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors, or Ed Davis?

Give me the later.

The only way I'm taking the playoffs over a lottery pick is if the pick is late lotto - #10+.

duke dynamite
01-16-2010, 02:12 PM
Peck, like I said before. If we are good enough to make it to the playoffs, we won't get swept. If this current streak stays at 3, and we are the same team at that time we are now and we make the playoffs (because of some odd miracle), yes, we will get swept.

PacerDude
01-16-2010, 02:27 PM
I guess I don't see much difference in a series that ends 4-1 as opposed to a 4-0 one. :shrug:

Besides the 1. Which was probably conceded by the team that won the series. Usually game 3 or 4. Let the home team win 1, rest the big guns a little, close out in game 5. There's not much solace in that.

DgR
01-16-2010, 02:30 PM
That's just as big a fantasy as the original question.

The mere fact that if we don't make the playoffs the team will move next season would indicate to me that we are moving anyway as the team would be so unstable that the income from a brief playoff appearance will not help.

We are nowhere near that and if we are then you might as well face the fact that the team IS moving.

I reject this theory.

However let me take your theory and expand on it.

Playoffs now, quick sweeping at the hands of let's say Orlando. Why Orlando? Because the Cavs have King James who will bring a legion of fans. Orlando will have a few fans in the house but nowhere near helping fill the field house. Local fans, if history has taught us anything, will not give a significant bump to the sales either so let's assume that the field house is 75% capacity. BTW, I do not believe that is unreasonable as I'm sure we both remember the playoff attendance in the first round from the early 90's.

Now after being swept in the first round we get let's just say the 15th pick in the draft. We use it to draft a player who may one day be a good player but is a few years away from contributing. Then next season comes around and our record is the same with no great changes coming from the trade front as the team has decided to let the contracts expire and see what they can do from there.

Another first round sweep.

Another mid first round pick however now we have free agent money out the @ss.

Ok, there are no marquee players but Bird is able to convince several nice mid level talents to join the club oh and both Murphy and Dunleavy have agree to stay with the club at much reduced contracts.

Talent doesn't mesh right away but as the season progresses they get better once again gaining the 8th seed.

Another first round sweep.

By this time the fan base has never gotten lower but has never gotten better. Now the owners are looking at 7-8 years of real actual loss of revenue.

Versus.

We somehow get lucky and get a top 3 pick this year. That player has major talent and while next season he is not the R.O.Y. or anything but it is recognized he will be a very good player for a very long time. The team does a little better next season with the better talent. The off season comes and some of the better players are willing to come here or even if it is just the mid level talent because they see a winning combo of Danny, Star rookie, Roy, Tyler and Price.

The following season we open up on a tear and start winning at about a 60% clip. Come December fans from around the state start to notice this and slowly but steadily the field house attendance begins to rise.

Second round of the playoffs.

The following season we are ranked as one of the top 10 teams in the league and our season ticket sales have started to climb.

Ok, mine was pure fantasy. But IMO less of a fantasy than saying that if we don't make the playoffs we are going to move.

BTW as to the original question, despite my above scenario, I will say this.

If we are winning and make the playoffs then I am all for it. However I don't want to be the one team that makes the playoffs because we were one game less worse than a team that wasn't really trying.

What I mean by that is if we play at least .500 ball the rest of the season then yes, let's do it.

I never root for failure and despite times I want a better more talented player I do attend and it is very hard at times to get motivated to go in the sub zero temps. to see a team you know is going to get blown out. So yes winning is more fun.


:amen:

This team needs a top pick. Doesn't matter if it's not 1st. We need talent and for us, the only way to get it is the draft.
Talent brings winning. Winning brings fans. Fans bring more winning, more financial stability, better FA. That's how we'll become relevant again.

Hicks
01-16-2010, 02:41 PM
Promise me Wall and I root for losses, but since that is not reality, I won't. I don't even think it'll be top 7.

Now, I'm certainly in disagreement with those who think playoff appearances are worthless unless you're close to winning the series or actually do win the series.

I might agree with that when it's a veteran team that's been deeper before, but I don't agree when it's a young team that's never been. Every minute of playoff experience counts when you're a young team. It toughens you up, enlightens you, and prepares you to succeed when your talent improves.

And yes, talent can improve even if the apocalypse happens and we don't get a high pick.

dohman
01-16-2010, 02:44 PM
Did the worst team in the league get blake griffen last year?

BillS
01-16-2010, 02:48 PM
That's just as big a fantasy as the original question.

The mere fact that if we don't make the playoffs the team will move next season would indicate to me that we are moving anyway as the team would be so unstable that the income from a brief playoff appearance will not help.

We are nowhere near that and if we are then you might as well face the fact that the team IS moving.

Even if we get John Wall, even in your best scenario, the team doesn't start playing at an attendance-gaining pace for at least a year and a half (I dispute that attendance in the second year will rise until after the Colts season is finished), so moving next year isn't the only circumstance under which we put together a team finally on the rise only to see it go somewhere else.


In that case I want to see them playing as hard as possible now because I won't be seeing them for long.


I reject this theory.

<snip for quote length>

Problem is, I don't really think it is possible for us to get a top 3 pick, and I don't trust drafting even in the top 5. These aren't just low-probability scenarios, I think they are pretty much impossible scenarios. I'd almost guarantee something will happen to a top-5 pick (it does every year), and the fates will make it happen to us.

I suppose I'd like to see us play as hard as we can and just miss the playoffs - in the East I think that will garner a higher pick than we've had in a number of years. But, if playing hard is running the "risk" of making the playoffs, I DON'T want to see players benched or actions taken that kill the momentum and cause games to be lost.

DgR
01-16-2010, 02:52 PM
Promise me Wall and I root for losses, but since that is not reality, I won't. I don't even think it'll be top 7.

Now, I'm certainly in disagreement with those who think playoff appearances are worthless unless you're close to winning the series or actually do win the series.

I might agree with that when it's a veteran team that's been deeper before, but I don't agree when it's a young team that's never been. Every minute of playoff experience counts when you're a young team. It toughens you up, enlightens you, and prepares you to succeed when your talent improves.

And yes, talent can improve even if the apocalypse happens and we don't get a high pick.

I don't mind getting into the PO and losing in the first round as long as we play positive, competitive ball and don't embarrass ourselves. That would have the opposite effect on the players, especially the young ones. I think this team will get steamrolled by the east's 1st seed.

Lance George
01-16-2010, 03:05 PM
Did the worst team in the league get blake griffen last year?

Nope, the second worst team did. The worst team (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2009&group=league&column=wins&order=true&seasontype=2) had to settle for Tyreke Evans, who's looking to become the first rookie to average a 20/5/5 since some guy named LeBron (Wade, Melo, Paul, Durant, Roy... none did it).

Hicks
01-16-2010, 03:10 PM
I don't mind getting into the PO and losing in the first round as long as we play positive, competitive ball and don't embarrass ourselves. That would have the opposite effect on the players, especially the young ones. I think this team will get steamrolled by the east's 1st seed.

Thus far we've proven to be competitive with Orlando, Cleveland, and Boston. I don't think it would be 4 straight double digit losses. I think it would be relatively close, with perhaps us winning 1 or 2. It's just the nature of our style (3-balls equalize things a bit, and we'll be playing as hard as ever because it's the post-season).

Nothing is certain, but I think it would be a mistake to just assume an embarrassment.

SkipperZ
01-16-2010, 03:10 PM
i understand but what if we do land Wall and he's a bust???...... unless there's a 27 yr old Michael Jordan coming in that door in a Pacers uni.......1 player is not gonna save this orginization.

theres no other sport where one player can completely turn a franchise around. One player can actually save this organization

BRushWithDeath
01-16-2010, 03:20 PM
Thus far we've proven to be competitive with Orlando, Cleveland, and Boston. I don't think it would be 4 straight double digit losses. I think it would be relatively close, with perhaps us winning 1 or 2. It's just the nature of our style (3-balls equalize things a bit, and we'll be playing as hard as ever because it's the post-season).

Nothing is certain, but I think it would be a mistake to just assume an embarrassment.
The difference is they will be playing just as hard.

Hicks
01-16-2010, 03:28 PM
The difference is they will be playing just as hard.

I don't think there will be a considerable difference.

pwee31
01-16-2010, 04:16 PM
There's no way of guaranteeing a #1 pick. Of course folks would want a #1 over an early first round exit, but seriously how likely are we to get the #1 pick?

This John Wall talk has gotten stupid!!

It's as if some of you believe the pacers losing games= john wall. That's not how it works... asks other losing teams

Putnam
01-16-2010, 04:48 PM
And yes, talent can improve even if the apocalypse happens and we don't get a high pick.


I'm sorry. I've missed the significance of the green text. I see it oftener and oftener lately, so I know its becoming a meme or a trope or something. Could somebody clue me in?


Thanks!

Hicks
01-16-2010, 05:05 PM
Green for sarcasm.

judicata
01-16-2010, 05:27 PM
Peck your scenario is as fantastical as the one you quoted.

Who is to say that the expirings don't get moved for a good player that pushes the Pacers into the 5th seed, or higher? Or that those midlevel talents don't blossom in Indy?

Every scenario comes down to the same thing: getting talent and developing it. You don't get to pretend that the draft bypasses this step, or that its even easier to do it through the draft.

The Pacers have to roll the dice be it in the draft, through free agency, or by trading. I don't think the odds are much better through the draft. I do know that a team that has some playoff experience, even getting swept in the first round, is better off than a team that has none when that inevitable roll of the dice comes up.

vnzla81
01-16-2010, 05:52 PM
That's just as big a fantasy as the original question.

The mere fact that if we don't make the playoffs the team will move next season would indicate to me that we are moving anyway as the team would be so unstable that the income from a brief playoff appearance will not help.

We are nowhere near that and if we are then you might as well face the fact that the team IS moving.

I reject this theory.

However let me take your theory and expand on it.

Playoffs now, quick sweeping at the hands of let's say Orlando. Why Orlando? Because the Cavs have King James who will bring a legion of fans. Orlando will have a few fans in the house but nowhere near helping fill the field house. Local fans, if history has taught us anything, will not give a significant bump to the sales either so let's assume that the field house is 75% capacity. BTW, I do not believe that is unreasonable as I'm sure we both remember the playoff attendance in the first round from the early 90's.

Now after being swept in the first round we get let's just say the 15th pick in the draft. We use it to draft a player who may one day be a good player but is a few years away from contributing. Then next season comes around and our record is the same with no great changes coming from the trade front as the team has decided to let the contracts expire and see what they can do from there.

Another first round sweep.

Another mid first round pick however now we have free agent money out the @ss.

Ok, there are no marquee players but Bird is able to convince several nice mid level talents to join the club oh and both Murphy and Dunleavy have agree to stay with the club at much reduced contracts.

Talent doesn't mesh right away but as the season progresses they get better once again gaining the 8th seed.

Another first round sweep.

By this time the fan base has never gotten lower but has never gotten better. Now the owners are looking at 7-8 years of real actual loss of revenue.

Versus.

We somehow get lucky and get a top 3 pick this year. That player has major talent and while next season he is not the R.O.Y. or anything but it is recognized he will be a very good player for a very long time. The team does a little better next season with the better talent. The off season comes and some of the better players are willing to come here or even if it is just the mid level talent because they see a winning combo of Danny, Star rookie, Roy, Tyler and Price.

The following season we open up on a tear and start winning at about a 60% clip. Come December fans from around the state start to notice this and slowly but steadily the field house attendance begins to rise.

Second round of the playoffs.

The following season we are ranked as one of the top 10 teams in the league and our season ticket sales have started to climb.

Ok, mine was pure fantasy. But IMO less of a fantasy than saying that if we don't make the playoffs we are going to move.

BTW as to the original question, despite my above scenario, I will say this.

If we are winning and make the playoffs then I am all for it. However I don't want to be the one team that makes the playoffs because we were one game less worse than a team that wasn't really trying.

What I mean by that is if we play at least .500 ball the rest of the season then yes, let's do it.

I never root for failure and despite times I want a better more talented player I do attend and it is very hard at times to get motivated to go in the sub zero temps. to see a team you know is going to get blown out. So yes winning is more fun.

nice post Peck:bowdown:, I been thinking about the same thing for the last three years and so far this team still sucks and is not much better.:( and Im afraid that this scenario is going to happen and maybe by then some minds here are going to be changed, or who knows they may still want to make it to playoffs "to give some experience to the young players" once again.

Pacersfan46
01-16-2010, 05:59 PM
Thus far we've proven to be competitive with Orlando, Cleveland, and Boston. I don't think it would be 4 straight double digit losses. I think it would be relatively close, with perhaps us winning 1 or 2. It's just the nature of our style (3-balls equalize things a bit, and we'll be playing as hard as ever because it's the post-season).

Nothing is certain, but I think it would be a mistake to just assume an embarrassment.

While we play them well in the regular season, this is would be the playoffs. Both teams would be more focused in realizing the end of the season is there if you don't show up. In those instances the advantage usually goes to the team with A) the most talented rotation, or B) the best individual player who comes up big at the important moments.

We lose not just A, or B. We would lose both A, AND B to any of those teams. I think it would be pretty ugly.

-- Steve --

Midcoasted
01-16-2010, 06:04 PM
theres no other sport where one player can completely turn a franchise around. One player can actually save this organization

You are wrong my friend. His name is Peyton Manning.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2010, 06:26 PM
.1 player is not gonna save this orginization.


And getting into the playoffs this season is??

Peck
01-16-2010, 06:55 PM
Peck your scenario is as fantastical as the one you quoted.

That's why I said "Ok, mine was pure fantasy" in my post.

Bball
01-16-2010, 07:06 PM
Thus far we've proven to be competitive with Orlando, Cleveland, and Boston. I don't think it would be 4 straight double digit losses. I think it would be relatively close, with perhaps us winning 1 or 2. It's just the nature of our style (3-balls equalize things a bit, and we'll be playing as hard as ever because it's the post-season).

Nothing is certain, but I think it would be a mistake to just assume an embarrassment.


Playoffs = preparation time. And the advantage is going to the better team.

Considering the current disparity between the 1 seed and the 8 seed in this shallow conference I wouldn't put much faith in 1 off regular season wins as indicators of what to expect in the playoffs.... Not when the teams all have time to prepare and gameplan extensively.

Other than the #1 seed not taking the Pacers seriously and getting surprised in the 1st game (which would be a road game so that's gonna make this scenario pretty tough), I don't see how they'd be anything but swept.

BobbyMac
01-16-2010, 07:09 PM
How many top 5 picks become all-stars? How many #1 picks. A couple of years ago all I saw on this board was that Oden was the savior of the team. None of this is a lock. I'd rather play well and make the playoffs.

Dr. Awesome
01-16-2010, 11:30 PM
There's no way of guaranteeing a #1 pick. Of course folks would want a #1 over an early first round exit, but seriously how likely are we to get the #1 pick?

This John Wall talk has gotten stupid!!

It's as if some of you believe the pacers losing games= john wall. That's not how it works... asks other losing teams

I never said it was, it is obviously a hypothetical situation just for discussion alone. I'm not saying that if we don't make the playoffs we'll definitely get John Wall, I simply asked what fans would rather see happen. There is a huge difference.

DaveP63
01-17-2010, 12:18 AM
High pick. Simple. I believe the on court action will take care of the other.

Justin Tyme
01-17-2010, 03:54 AM
I never said it was, it is obviously a hypothetical situation just for discussion alone. I'm not saying that if we don't make the playoffs we'll definitely get John Wall, I simply asked what fans would rather see happen. There is a huge difference.



Sadly some just don't get it. How much more simple could you have made it? It's either you want to go to the playoffs or Wall.

Select option A
or
Select option B

PaceBalls
01-17-2010, 05:03 AM
How good is JWall going to be anyway?

People are talking like he is the next Lebron or Chris Paul. I think that is quite uncertain, he might have potential to be good, but let's not induct him into the hall of fame yet.

He has only played a handful of games at Kentucky, against competition that won't be near as good as the NBA. He might have some good nights, but then he can have a night like they did tonight where he had 4 assists and 7 turnovers, agianst a 9-9 Auburn team...

I'm sure he is going to be a nice player and all, but the hype level on this kid seems to be way too much. I'll happily eat my words when he is the MVP of the NBA next year. (I doubt it)

Pacersfan46
01-17-2010, 05:07 AM
How good is JWall going to be anyway?

People are talking like he is the next Lebron or Chris Paul. I think that is quite uncertain, he might have potential to be good, but let's not induct him into the hall of fame yet.

He has only played a handful of games at Kentucky, against competition that won't be near as good as the NBA. He might have some good nights, but then he can have a night like they did tonight where he had 4 assists and 7 turnovers, agianst a 9-9 Auburn team...

I'm sure he is going to be a nice player and all, but the hype level on this kid seems to be way too much. I'll happily eat my words when he is the MVP of the NBA next year. (I doubt it)

You realize what you said applies to every draft pick in the history of any sport before they get to their respected league, right? Was Lebron, Lebron before he hit an NBA court? Was Chris Paul, Chris Paul when he was playing in Georgia? Of course not, nothing was certain when they were drafted. So you typed a lot, but in reality you said nothing.

-- Steve --

PaceBalls
01-17-2010, 05:11 AM
Sadly some just don't get it. How much more simple could you have made it? It's either you want to go to the playoffs or Wall.

Select option A
or
Select option B

It's more interesting to talk about the other angles even if you didn't expect us to. Your poll is lacking in depth so we made up for it. Sorry you didn't get that.

PaceBalls
01-17-2010, 05:17 AM
You realize what you said applies to every draft pick in the history of any sport before they get to their respected league, right? Was Lebron, Lebron before he hit an NBA court? Was Chris Paul, Chris Paul when he was playing in Georgia? Of course not, nothing was certain when they were drafted. So you typed a lot, but in reality you said nothing.

-- Steve --

Well, you made my point. Even if we somehow by the grace of the gods land Wall, he might end up being a bust anyway. I think that is a factor when rooting for a tank job vs playoffs.

P.S. Thanks for tying alot of nothing about you thinking I typed alot of nothing. Way to be productive.

P.S.S. Chris Paul went to Wake Forest.

judicata
01-17-2010, 06:11 AM
You realize what you said applies to every draft pick in the history of any sport before they get to their respected league, right? Was Lebron, Lebron before he hit an NBA court? Was Chris Paul, Chris Paul when he was playing in Georgia? Of course not, nothing was certain when they were drafted. So you typed a lot, but in reality you said nothing.

-- Steve --

He's pointing out how delusional fans can be over a draft pick.

30% chance to get the pick, 50% chance to get a star, 25% chance that star will take the team to the promised land. That's ugly stuff.

MLB007
01-17-2010, 06:34 AM
I'd rather have Evan Turner. ;)

Pacersfan46
01-17-2010, 12:47 PM
Well, you made my point. Even if we somehow by the grace of the gods land Wall, he might end up being a bust anyway. I think that is a factor when rooting for a tank job vs playoffs.

P.S. Thanks for tying alot of nothing about you thinking I typed alot of nothing. Way to be productive.

P.S.S. Chris Paul went to Wake Forest.

Actually I didn't make your point. I was making the point that the idea you were trying to put forth is an inherent risk of any draft pick. However that risk goes way down when picking at the top of the draft, and anyone posting here probably understands that risk and is willing to take it. Just figured the point you were making was so blatantly obvious it didn't need to be said. Even though a draft pick is never a guarantee, the probability of finding an impact player at the top of the draft is much higher than in the middle. So comparing the chance at Wall being an impact player, vs the impact of making the playoffs this year could have on the team's future .... I'll take Wall.

Picking #1 has never guaranteed a team a good future, but getting swept in the 1st round certainly doesn't guarantee that either. So I'll take the chance on Wall since the potential returns on that choice is much higher.


PS - Thanks for not comprehending the lot of "nothing" that I typed and then claiming that I wasn't the productive one. :D

PSS - For some damn reason I always think he went to Georgia Tech .... no idea why. lol

Justin Tyme
01-17-2010, 01:13 PM
It's more interesting to talk about the other angles even if you didn't expect us to. Your poll is lacking in depth so we made up for it. Sorry you didn't get that.


Sorry, you don't get "it's not MY poll."

I'm beginning to think some, if offered option A "wonderful night out" or option B tv re-runs you'd ask what's on tv!

vnzla81
01-17-2010, 01:14 PM
I know that some guys here like to talk about porcentage so here I go:

If the Pacers finish as one of the worse five teams in the NBA they would have from 20% to 30% changes that they get either the 1st pick or a top five pick.

If the pacers go to the playoffs they have 100% changes to don't pass the 1st round of the playoffs.

If the pacers in two years have huge cap space they have less than 90% changes that they get an All Star player and convince him to come here.

If the pacers have cap space in two years they would have a 50% changes to sign more role players and over pay(just like Detroit last year)

So in other words I know this is me thinking:D, I rather have a 20% change to get a guy like J Wall or have a bigger change to get a top five pick than have a 100% change that the pacers are not going to pass the 1st round and get kill by whoever the number one team is going to be.

pwee31
01-17-2010, 03:28 PM
I never said it was, it is obviously a hypothetical situation just for discussion alone. I'm not saying that if we don't make the playoffs we'll definitely get John Wall, I simply asked what fans would rather see happen. There is a huge difference.

I understand the discussion, but both scenarios are highly unlikely.

The same question could have been asked the last couple of years. Playoffs or Blake Griffin, Playoffs or Derrick Rose, Playoffs or Greg Oden/Kevin Durant.

I can understand if it hasn't been discussed, but it's been brought up in other threads. You're actually one of the main posters that bring up the scenario, or act disgusted after the Pacers win a game as if all hopes of John Wall are vanishing in front of our eyes.... seriously? :hmm:

vnzla81
01-17-2010, 03:29 PM
here are some comments about this by Joel Brigham from Hoopsworld.com

Omar in Evansville, Indiana:
How impressive has Indiana's wins been the last 2 games? And also can u see pacers making playoffs with Granger back?

Despite everything the Pacers are still only four games out of the playoff picture, so with Granger healthy and the benching of T.J. Ford apparently the epitome of "addition by subtraction," it's possible. But why would fans want the Pacers to make the playoffs? They do this every year, where they win just enough games to lose all prayer at a decent lottery pick, and if they do make into the postseason it's as a very low seed and they lose in the first round. There's no way to get better when you're stuck in a cycle like that, and let's be honest--how perfect would John Wall be for Indiana? I'm just sayin'...

Infinite MAN_force
01-17-2010, 05:02 PM
I think you guys hoping for John Wall are going to be dissapointed. This team is getting healthy and playing better and they just won't be quite crappy enough for a top 5 pick. Might as well start cheering for wins because better this team sneaks into the playoffs than spend another year in late lottery purgatory.

BillS
01-17-2010, 06:52 PM
If the pacers go to the playoffs they have 100% changes to don't pass the 1st round of the playoffs.

Really? Even if they make a trade before the deadline that adds a key player? I'll agree it's a slim chance, but impossible?

spreedom
01-17-2010, 06:53 PM
Playoffs. One hundred million percent of the time, without any question.

cdash
01-17-2010, 07:50 PM
For this question, which I take as, "we either make the playoffs, or we are guaranteed to get the #1 pick and John Wall", with no in-betweens, I couldn't possibly fathom why anyone would pick the playoffs. Obviously, that is not a realistic scenario, and the most likely outcome is something in between, but if it's sacrificial lamb to the LeBrons in the first round or a potential franchise altering star...why would you pick the playoffs?

CableKC
01-17-2010, 09:21 PM
It's unfortunate that this has become an annual thread for Pacer fans on this forum. UNLESS Bird is no longer in the FO.....I think that many of you that are hoping for a Lottery pick will be disappointed. In the last couple of seasons....especially after DW left.....Bird has not strayed from the notion that he will always teach and cultivate a "winning culture" and that it is always important ( especially for a young core of Players that he expects to be around for awhile ) to always compete and not "tank" for a pick.

On a personal level.....although this Team doesn't have the necessary talent level to really compete and could do well with an infusion of a top Draft pick.....I ( just like over the last couple of seasons ) is not an advocate of "tanking" for the hope of drafting John Wall. I ( and probably many here ) think that there is VALUABLE experience in making it to the Playoffs even if it meant a "4 and done" run. It is important for young Teams to experience what it means to play in the "pressure cooker" environment of the Playoffs. It's something that should be learned and quickly gotten out of the way. I think that it also gives the Young Players ( and Fans ) a huge boost in confidence which is carried into the next season. If you look at what the Blazers and Hawks have done with their young Players ( and no, I'm not suggesting that the Pacers are anywhere near that level of talent now, just the fact that a young Team made it through the Playoff Gauntlet )....that is what I am hoping for over the next 2 years.

However, I, too am weary of the losing and do hope for better days. My "middle of the road" option is to continue to push for the Playoffs....but specifically ensuring that we maximize the # of minutes that the future core of Players will play together over the next 1.5 seasons. That means playing the vets that we have on our Team ( Foster and MurphLeavy ) while ensuring that core Players of AJ/Inferno/Granger/BRush/Hansbrough/Hibbert play as many minutes that they can together. Wherever that type of lineup leads us ( Playoffs or Wall ) is where I want to end up.

So the answer is to push for the "Playoffs" with the caveat that the Pacers figure out a way to give as many minutes to our young core of players....even if it means having AJ make mistakes at the cost of playing more minutes.....even if it means playing Hansbrough the most amount of minutes....even ( most of all ) having Hibbert foul out with 6 fouls every game while playing the most amount of minutes that he can handle......win or lose.....developing our young Players while pushing for the Playoffs.

GO!!!!!
01-17-2010, 10:37 PM
I hate the idea of tanking but I hate losing more... so it hurts to stay John Wall....

I think we chose the wrong year tho, with the Nets sucking that much we need to get lucky if we want a good draft pick...

aceace
01-18-2010, 01:36 AM
Playoffs!

Even if we tanked A. Your going to make the fan base mad. B. We are probably not going to get the first pick so no Wall. C. If we play and miss the playoffs we got 2 players to trade at next years trade deadline to reorganize if it's still not working.

It will always be playoffs for me even if we have to play Boston or Cleveland etc. If we can perform much better over the next 10-15 games we can be above 500 while everyone else tanks at the end. Remember we have only had DG,Dun and Troy for 10 games together over the last 1.5 years. Lets see what they can do. Way too early to throw in the towel.

Dr. Awesome
01-18-2010, 04:50 AM
I understand the discussion, but both scenarios are highly unlikely.

The same question could have been asked the last couple of years. Playoffs or Blake Griffin, Playoffs or Derrick Rose, Playoffs or Greg Oden/Kevin Durant.

I can understand if it hasn't been discussed, but it's been brought up in other threads. You're actually one of the main posters that bring up the scenario, or act disgusted after the Pacers win a game as if all hopes of John Wall are vanishing in front of our eyes.... seriously? :hmm:

I don't think we'll get John Wall, your putting words in my mouth. Also, as I have said in other threads, I love to see the Pacers win - especially those 2 comebacks, those are always fun to watch.

At the same time, with mid draft picks, we will stay in the middle of the pack. I see it as we can either stay in the middle for the next 3-4 years or get a top pick - even if not John Wall a top 5 pick is very valuable in this draft and have a chance at a much better future. Heck, I wouldn't care if we traded the draft pick to get someone next to Granger - the fact is we need someone else who is a difference maker and its not often you find that guy in a mid round pick.

As for you saying I'm getting my hopes up on John Wall, is everyone whos hoping we'll make the playoffs getting there hopes up on signing someone in 2011? I'll say this, we have a much better shot at John Wall than we do signing a top notch FA in 2011.

Playoff experience is valuable, I agree with a lot of what CableKC said - but playoff experience won't make a difference at all if we don't have the talent to get us anywhere outside the first round anyway. The teams we will be playing will all have playoff experience in the future too - and much better talent.

But again, please don't put words in my mouth - I realize we have a very small chance of getting Wall, but I still think a top 5 pick is more valuable at this time than playoff experience. Even that is irrelevent because the question was playoffs or John Wall, not playoffs or a chance at John Wall. I simply wanted to know what people thought was more important if John Wall was a guarantee, because that had not been discussed before, only the tanking option for the chance at him had been.

ksuttonjr76
01-18-2010, 11:43 AM
Bird's building this team around Granger; he's not going to throw Granger away for Al Jefferson, who makes more than Granger (and Murphy too), and is only 3 points a game better than Murphy. It's just not going to happen. Yahoo Sports isn't exactly the AP...

I've made this point before, but it needs to be repeated every so often...

It is MUCH more important for this team to reach the playoffs than it is to get a top 5 draft pick. If Bird gives up on this year, before the team gives up for the season (and I've seen nothing to indicate that is the case), then he might as well trade EVERYBODY. And that's not gonna happen, either. Bird's as adamant about that as he's been about O'Brien getting fired.

Granger needs to lead a team to the playoffs, even if it is to an eighth seed sweep. Especially if it's with a team that nobody expects to make it. He's good enough to do it, if he works at it.

And then what? He gathers the experience from making the playoffs and builds on it! The next year, it gets a little easier for the team to succeed, because they've done it before. All the young guys have another year under their belt, the team gets a mid-first round pick, and Bird makes a trade that helps (as opposed to one that dumps salary or, like in years past, moves a guy who MUST be moved. Then you do it again.

Talent by itself is nothing; it's the Clippers, year after year. Look back through the years of teams with lots of good, young talent, and virtually every one of them ended up not going anywhere, instead getting traded away as rookie contracts expired.

While I agree with Bird that Granger is good enough to build around, I want to see him prove it, by making the playoffs with what we've got right now. There's enough talent on this team to make the playoffs. Even if it means a sweep at the hands of Cleveland.

The difference in draft picks between making the playoffs and not making it is not that great. More importantly, the certainty of a draft pick's ultimate success in the NBA is not all that reliable, so does it really matter whether you're picking from 4 to 10? I say no.

Here's something that was posted at www.espn.com (Indiana boards) that made sense to me. I wouldn't mind a Top 5 pick, but it's not within my competitive nature to tell a team to tank the season. Man, I find out it hard enough to turn off my X-Box in the middle of a NBA 2K10 game just because the kids are hungry, lol.

cinotimz
01-18-2010, 07:30 PM
A good day today. Washington wins. Minnesota wins. Golden State wins.