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View Full Version : Pacers Win Third Straight, Zero minutes for McBob Again, What a Tragedy



Trader Joe
01-15-2010, 11:28 PM
I wish I could put green font in titles.

I hope the legend of the McBob is slowly dying out now.

McKeyFan
01-15-2010, 11:31 PM
Hibbert got a lot minutes.

Murphy mixed up his offense with several drives to the hoop.

Granger hit his threes.

Rush played like an NBA player.

I enjoy watching AJ Price dribble and distribute.

pwee31
01-15-2010, 11:31 PM
3 in a row!

Man was it nice to just be able to watch a Pacers game from start to finish. Started well and finished strong... gotta love it.

Looking for 4 in a row tomorrow. Pacers as the opening act, followed by the Colts as the main attraction. Go BLUE....... and Gold

Go Pacers and Colts!

McKeyFan
01-15-2010, 11:32 PM
The five game win streak could be repeated. That would be bad.

travmil
01-15-2010, 11:34 PM
Can't wait to hear from Trophy. I remember reading somewhere that he had tix to this game. Must have been a good one.

Brad8888
01-15-2010, 11:35 PM
I wish I could put green font in titles.

I hope the legend of the McBob is slowly dying out now.

Good luck with that.

Obviously with the game well in hand for about oh, 24 or so minutes, there should have been at least some opportunities to give him some burn, especially against a team that has decent inside presence while not actually looking to win any games at any time.

Unclebuck
01-15-2010, 11:36 PM
The ball movement was outstanding tonight, everyone was sharing the ball.

travmil
01-15-2010, 11:36 PM
LOL Jim O'Brien explaining he's wearing adidas shoes on the sideline because of a broken toe. Must have put his foot up McBob's *** in practice.

Brad8888
01-15-2010, 11:38 PM
LOL Jim O'Brien explaining he's wearing adidas shoes on the sideline because of a broken toe. Must have put his foot up McBob's *** in practice.

Probably Brandon's based on tonight's better offensive production.

Dr. Awesome
01-15-2010, 11:49 PM
Its been fun watching the Pacers win, especially the comebacks - but I'm getting kinda pissed now. They aren't good enough to win, we need a fricken good draft pick - just one, to go with Granger. No one is going to sign here, even in 2011 - we need to build through the draft and doing that with mid round picks is not going to get us another player like Granger unless we get very lucky.

These wins just show me that we will be stuck in mediocrity for that much longer. We are officially out of the John Wall sweepstakes, and now it doesn't even look like we'll get a decent consolation prize.

Sorry for being cynical, I love seeing the Pacers win - but in terms of the future, we need a good draft pick.

kellogg
01-15-2010, 11:53 PM
The ball movement was outstanding tonight, everyone was sharing the ball.

...against a team with 3 wins all season long.

Sorry just can't get too excited about this win. The only positive is that in this 1 game out of 82, they didn't have a letdown against an awful team that their bench could beat.

McKeyFan
01-15-2010, 11:58 PM
I been watching this team too long to take any win for granted.

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 12:10 AM
Lots of assumptions flying around. The fact Granger and Dunleavy are both playing effectively is a big reason we are improving...particularly with Granger.

Also, while this team cannot assume a single victory, it was the Nets. They have to be one of the worst teams in the last decade.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2010, 12:23 AM
LOL Jim O'Brien explaining he's wearing adidas shoes on the sideline because of a broken toe. Must have put his foot up McBob's *** in practice.


Now that's funny!

Justin Tyme
01-16-2010, 12:36 AM
I would have liked Jimmy to start the garbage time earlier than 3:15 left. Only b/c it's the 1st game of a back to back.

The more I watch Price the more I like him! He's got some rough edges, but I like the way he plays.

During time outs I watched the Hawks/Suns game. Great game with a FANTASTIC ending. Crawford hits a 3 to win the game when the Suns with 10 seconds had a 5 pt lead. What did Nellie have against Crawford?

duke dynamite
01-16-2010, 12:39 AM
I like winning.

Trophy
01-16-2010, 12:58 AM
I had a good time. It always feels good to have bragging rights as the road fan.

We've done better without Ford playing. He was out there shooting around before the game and then he vanished after that once the game started.

I was the guy in the gold #3 jersey behind the bench.

PacerGuy
01-16-2010, 01:17 AM
I like winning.

If you score more then he opponent at the end of regulation, but McBob doesn't play, can you actually call it a "Win"?

I didn't think so. :(

ChicagoJ
01-16-2010, 01:27 AM
If you beat the Nets, does it really count as a "full" victory. Or is it only 0.8 of a win?

They're terrible. Let's not overreact to being 3-0 against these guys when that accounts for nearly 25% of our wins.

vnzla81
01-16-2010, 01:31 AM
3 games on a row, Championship baby...............:dance::dance::p

Sookie
01-16-2010, 01:49 AM
Pacers are 5-3 since switching to the Watson/Price PG lineup.
This includes a three game winning streak.

If you consider an Adjustment period with Murphy and Danny returning, with the losses to Minn and OKL, with the exception of the NY loss..is this stretch more impressive than the five game winning streak? In the five game winning streak, the Pacers beat bad teams and Boston.

In this stretch, the Pacers have beaten Orlando Phoenix and Toronto, all better teams than any of the one's they beat in the five game winning streak, besides Boston.

Squirrelz
01-16-2010, 01:58 AM
Does anyone think we can really make the playoffs?

I mean, I want to, but you guys know how this story seems to always go for us.

PaceBalls
01-16-2010, 02:03 AM
As one of Murph's biggest critics, I have to say he is playing some fantastic basketball lately. That was a hell of a game from him.

Brandon Rush looked like an assassin out there. Incredible defense again. He is a keeper.

Great wins the last few games. What if we win 2 more in a row? That would be so weird to have two different 5 game win streaks this early in the season and still be below .500 by over 9 games. We would need a 14 game win streak to get to .500...

jeffg-body
01-16-2010, 02:43 AM
What a great game to watch tonight. Danny was impressive, Troy did well, Dun looks like he is starting to get his "sea legs" so to speak and the young cubs did well. Can't wait to see how they look tomorrow. The only game tonight that I thought was a better game to watch was the Suns and Hawks game, for the last 30 seconds. :gopacers:

Will Galen
01-16-2010, 02:53 AM
We would need a 14 game win streak to get to .500...

Okay, I wanted a chance at the top three in the draft, but I signed us up to win 14 in a row. :happydanc

ECKrueger
01-16-2010, 02:57 AM
Dahntay wasn't in ESPN's Top 10, it is not even in the highlight :(

good game, bad team.

duke dynamite
01-16-2010, 03:19 AM
If you score more then he opponent at the end of regulation, but McBob doesn't play, can you actually call it a "Win"?

I didn't think so. :(
Riiight. I see a W on the box score. Last time I checked that was a win.

IndyProdigy
01-16-2010, 03:22 AM
As one of Murph's biggest critics, I have to say he is playing some fantastic basketball lately. That was a hell of a game from him.

Brandon Rush looked like an assassin out there. Incredible defense again. He is a keeper.

Great wins the last few games. What if we win 2 more in a row? That would be so weird to have two different 5 game win streaks this early in the season and still be below .500 by over 9 games. We would need a 14 game win streak to get to .500...

Couldnt POSSIBLY be him wanting to improve his trade value because he knows hes on the block.

But i agree, there was a time tonight where he pumped at the top of the key, took one dribble and slammed it down over Yi Jianlian. i had NEVER seen that kind of athleticism or dribble drive from him. he must REALLY want to go to a contender. if he had any inclination that bird was keeping him, i think he'd go back to the murph we all know and hate.

31andonly
01-16-2010, 03:23 AM
Cool feeling to win 3 in a row, but..well...we're now 7th in the John Wall - standings...

PaceBalls
01-16-2010, 03:24 AM
Couldnt POSSIBLY be him wanting to improve his trade value because he knows hes on the block.

But i agree, there was a time tonight where he pumped at the top of the key, took one dribble and slammed it down over Yi Jianlian. i had NEVER seen that kind of athleticism or dribble drive from him. he must REALLY want to go to a contender. if he had any inclination that bird was keeping him, i think he'd go back to the murph we all know and hate.

Well, it can only be a good thing, Bird can demand more if he is playing like an all star. I think the only way they decide to keep him is if we really do go on a 10+ game win streak and the playoffs become a real possiblity.

IndyProdigy
01-16-2010, 03:30 AM
Well, it can only be a good thing, Bird can demand more if he is playing like an all star. I think the only way they decide to keep him is if we really do go on a 10+ game win streak and the playoffs become a real possiblity.

the former is a good thing. the latter is not. cuz if we win 10+ game win streak, we will make the playoffs (terrible draft pick) and we will still have murph. UGH.

itd be one thing if i knew that murph's increased abilities would make us contenders in the east, but it still doesnt. so were better off to cut our losses now and trade him while his value is at its highest...like somebody else said on here cant remember, troy will not play better, hes at his peak. same goes for dunleavy.

PaceBalls
01-16-2010, 03:31 AM
the former is a good thing. the latter is not. cuz if we win 10+ game win streak, we will make the playoffs (terrible draft pick) and we will still have murph. UGH.

itd be one thing if i knew that murph's increased abilities would make us contenders in the east, but it still doesnt. so were better off to cut our losses now and trade him while his value is at its highest...like somebody else said on here cant remember, troy will not play better, hes at his peak. same goes for dunleavy.

Yea.. but I don't care if we lose in the first round. It would be really great for me to see them in the playoffs. Call me selfish, I want the team to win.

Trust me though, I am not advocating us keeping Murph... I think we should sell high. That might be hard for management to do though if this team really starts clicking.

Anyway, they aren't going to go on a 10 game winning streak.

IndyProdigy
01-16-2010, 03:43 AM
Yea.. but I don't care if we lose in the first round. It would be really great for me to see them in the playoffs. Call me selfish, I want the team to win.

Trust me though, I am not advocating us keeping Murph... I think we should sell high. That might be hard for management to do though if this team really starts clicking.

Anyway, they aren't going to go on a 10 game winning streak.

BUT, if we dont make the playoffs, and murph continues to play the way he does, and we DONT trade him...






i will be extremely frustrated with the pacers organization to say the least.

cinotimz
01-16-2010, 04:25 AM
Lots of assumptions flying around. The fact Granger and Dunleavy are both playing effectively is a big reason we are improving...particularly with Granger.

Also, while this team cannot assume a single victory, it was the Nets. They have to be one of the worst teams in the last decade.

And sadly, they are quite likely to be better than us next season-almost assuredly with more hope for a brighter future....the likelihood of getting Wall or a top 5 draft pick...and then tons of caproom to lure a top tier free agent or 2....

Meanwhile, we will likely draft another Hibbert or Rush-not that theres anything wrong with these guys, they just arent the Wall level-and be having the same discussions about whether we should tank a season as we struggle to finish somewhere between 9 and 12 in the conference.

LG33
01-16-2010, 05:04 AM
Brandon Rush - 15 points (100% shooting), 6 rebounds, 5 assists (tied for first), 1 steal

Not bad?

PaceBalls
01-16-2010, 06:54 AM
Brandon Rush - 15 points (100% shooting), 6 rebounds, 5 assists (tied for first), 1 steal

Not bad?

Yeah man, he was a badass last night. That might have the most efficient game I have ever seen anyone play.

Unclebuck
01-16-2010, 09:04 AM
...against a team with 3 wins all season long.

Sorry just can't get too excited about this win. The only positive is that in this 1 game out of 82, they didn't have a letdown against an awful team that their bench could beat.

so I post 1 sentence about how outstanding the ball movement was and you interpret that to mean I'm overly excited about beating the Nets? I almost wonder if you meant to quote someone else

Unclebuck
01-16-2010, 09:07 AM
Pacers are 5-3 since switching to the Watson/Price PG lineup.
This includes a three game winning streak.

If you consider an Adjustment period with Murphy and Danny returning, with the losses to Minn and OKL, with the exception of the NY loss..is this stretch more impressive than the five game winning streak? In the five game winning streak, the Pacers beat bad teams and Boston.

In this stretch, the Pacers have beaten Orlando Phoenix and Toronto, all better teams than any of the one's they beat in the five game winning streak, besides Boston.

Yes this is more impresive, because they are playing the style this team was built for. Sharing the ball, everyone passing, everyone scoring, good on court chemistry. Maybe replacing Ford has a lot to do with this, I always say the point guard position is the most important position on the court. Plus winning in January is more meaningful than winning in November. A team is able to gt a lot of cheap wins in November - in general

Doug
01-16-2010, 09:46 AM
Loved the ball movement and the passing last night.

That was very nice to watch.

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 10:23 AM
If you beat the Nets, does it really count as a "full" victory. Or is it only 0.8 of a win?

They're terrible. Let's not overreact to being 3-0 against these guys when that accounts for nearly 25% of our wins.

There is a lot of truth to this, because the Nets are one of the worst teams in recent memory. ...but without a doubt this team is playing better.

While Troy has been playing very well, the big factors are the addition of Granger and Dunleavy. Dun played awesome in the Phoenix victory. We would have beat the Nets regardless...but the Phoenix win would not have happened without Granger and Dunleavy.

I hope everyone realizes Danny and Mike are the most talented and effective Pacers. ...and that it has been a very, very long time since they both have been healthy and on the court together.

Putnam
01-16-2010, 10:34 AM
Cool feeling to win 3 in a row, but..well...we're now 7th in the John Wall - standings...


John Wall will be selected by randomness. It makes little sense to talk about the "John Wall Standings" when the probabilities of getting first pick are so loosely connected to the standings.



But anyway, this game was a good example of stretching the floor.

Pacers got 13 fewer free throws and made 10 fewer. But they scored 9 more field goals and 7 more 3s than New Jersey.

The Pacers shot a higher percentage from behind the arc than from inside.

.

MyFavMartin
01-16-2010, 10:40 AM
It helps to have Granger playing like he can and Dun getting his legs back. AJ has been a very pleasant surprise and Roy is coming along very well. Would like to see consistency from Brandon, but wouldn't we all? Oh, and while we're at it, how about not becoming motivated until down 20... Let's see how the next few games go before we talk about playoffs.

MagicRat
01-16-2010, 11:08 AM
If you beat the Nets, does it really count as a "full" victory. Or is it only 0.8 of a win?

The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak * The Four Point Eight Game Win Streak *

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 11:12 AM
Oh...another factor has been the subtraction of TJ Ford and more time for Watson and price.

Not that TJ is the only reason...we did lose the last 8 games he got on the court. Since he has been DNP-CD, we have gone 5-3.

Honestly, I think JOb started trying some new things after the New Year in addition to benching Ford...

JohnnyBGoode
01-16-2010, 11:26 AM
:bs:
There is a lot of truth to this, because the Nets are one of the worst teams in recent memory. ...but without a doubt this team is playing better.

While Troy has been playing very well, the big factors are the addition of Granger and Dunleavy. Dun played awesome in the Phoenix victory. We would have beat the Nets regardless...but the Phoenix win would not have happened without Granger and Dunleavy.

I hope everyone realizes Danny and Mike are the most talented and effective Pacers. ...and that it has been a very, very long time since they both have been healthy and on the court together.

:bs:Troy has been the one bright spot all year for the Pacers and yet you continue to treat him with disdain. There has to be another reason besides Troy's play that causes you to dislike him as much as you apparently do.

Tom White
01-16-2010, 11:28 AM
I would have liked Jimmy to start the garbage time earlier than 3:15 left. Only b/c it's the 1st game of a back to back.


This is a good point that I don't think anyone else mentioned. Some of our guys not only logged big minutes tonight, but also played heavy, hard played minutes in the two come-back wins. Will it catch up with them tonight?

I guess we will have to stay tuned, and find out.




Couldnt POSSIBLY be him wanting to improve his trade value because he knows hes on the block.

Or....perhaps Bird has told him he is NOT on the block, and he is playing with a greater comfort level due to that.

Brad8888
01-16-2010, 11:34 AM
:bs:

:bs:Troy has been the one bright spot all year for the Pacers and yet you continue to treat him with disdain. There has to be another reason besides Troy's play that causes you to dislike him as much as you apparently do.

Murphy's play has been great lately since his health has finally completely returned and the fact that now he has other players physically capable of being the primary offensive threats. Earlier this year, what good he brought to the floor was easily replaceable, and the overall impact of his being on the floor was a negative due to his slow lateral movement defensively.

Right now, though, Murphy deserves recognition as the third best player on the team behind Granger and Dunleavy. Compared with earlier in the season, Murphy is playing like an All Star.

Ozwalt72
01-16-2010, 11:55 AM
Couldnt POSSIBLY be him wanting to improve his trade value because he knows hes on the block.

But i agree, there was a time tonight where he pumped at the top of the key, took one dribble and slammed it down over Yi Jianlian. i had NEVER seen that kind of athleticism or dribble drive from him. he must REALLY want to go to a contender. if he had any inclination that bird was keeping him, i think he'd go back to the murph we all know and hate.

Okay, but I will mention the other side of this. Could he be playing like this because he wants to stay?

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 12:02 PM
:bs:

:bs:Troy has been the one bright spot all year for the Pacers and yet you continue to treat him with disdain. There has to be another reason besides Troy's play that causes you to dislike him as much as you apparently do.

Troy is playing very well and deserves credit for his efforts. However, there are several reasons why I don't want him starting at the 4.

Basically, his game...on both sides of the court...is the opposite of what I want in a PF...and what I believe is needed to advance in the playoffs. It's even worse when he's playing next to Roy Hibbert who is a weak defender himself. Nobody is protecting the rim against drivers with those guys in the game. Bring me an Antonio McDyess or Dale Davis type player. That's what I believe helps you at that particular position. Against good teams, players can go over, through and past Troy too easily. These shortcomings put a cap on how good this team can be defensively.

On offense, he's good but for a perimeter guy he is far from mobile. Let the guys who can actually move on offense get open for threes. You need that ability when the game is on the line. For example, Granger and Dunleavy are usually moving when they launch a 3....while Troy is planted. That doesn't work very well when teams crank up the D in the 4th quarter. That's his achille's heal. His value is diminished down the stretch because his offensive game wilts under defensive pressure. It is too easy to defend. When you combine that with his defensive weaknesses, he hurts you late in 75% of games against .500 or better teams. Also, his presence on the floor allows the team to go crazy shooting 3's...which is a poor strategy to compete at the highest level. Instead, a more deliberate style is usually more effective in the playoffs. That's why the ultra talented Suns and Mavs never won a ring. Helter skelter offense is a farce....and I think Troy provides JOb the tool to up the ante on the run-n-gun BS of an offense.

Putnam
01-16-2010, 12:26 PM
he must REALLY want to go to a contender. if he had any inclination that bird was keeping him, i think he'd go back to the murph we all know and hate.


Okay, but I will mention the other side of this. Could he be playing like this because he wants to stay?


Or maybe he has no ulterior motivation at all and just wants to do his best for the team that pays him.


.

odeez
01-16-2010, 12:36 PM
Wow, winning does feel good, but you have mixed feelings as well. It looks like we are headed to a similar fate as years before. A draft pick in the teens. We might sneak into the playoffs, but does it matter, if the youth movement continues?

Ozwalt72
01-16-2010, 12:45 PM
Or maybe he has no ulterior motivation at all and just wants to do his best for the team that pays him.


.

thats my thought on the subject, I just wanted to throw out the obvious counter to what he mentioned

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-16-2010, 01:00 PM
While we've won 3 in a row, we're really no closer to making the playoffs because Chicago and Charlotte are on their own win streak.

And as good as Murphy has been lately, Jamison has been just as good, if not better. So, while Murphy has been improving his trade value, Jamison is still the number one option for teams looking for a PF that can stretch the D and rebound.

Story of the Pacers... good, but just not good enough.

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 01:31 PM
While we've won 3 in a row, we're really no closer to making the playoffs because Chicago and Charlotte are on their own win streak.

And as good as Murphy has been lately, Jamison has been just as good, if not better. So, while Murphy has been improving his trade value, Jamison is still the number one option for teams looking for a PF that can stretch the D and rebound.

Story of the Pacers... good, but just not good enough.

Yep, Jamison has been on two all-star teams...the last one in 2008. He's played in the playoffs on 5 separate occasions averaging 32 ppg in one series. He's averaged over 20ppg during 6 seasons...9 seasons he was 19.6ppg or higher....and once he was in the elite 25ppg territory. While he does have a perimeter game, he is also athletic and can get to the rim.

There is no comparison. Murphy is not a bad player. Jamison is all-star calibre and has in fact been on two all-star teams. I just find it funny that anyone compares them. It's like comparing Danny to Lebron. Only homers think they are comparable...and Danny's my favorite player.

Ozwalt72
01-16-2010, 01:39 PM
Yep, Jamison has been on two all-star teams...the last one in 2008. He's played in the playoffs on 5 separate occasions averaging 32 ppg in one series. He's averaged over 20ppg during 6 seasons...9 seasons he was 19.6ppg or higher....and once he was in the elite 25ppg territory. While he does have a perimeter game, he is also athletic and can get to the rim.

There is no comparison. Murphy is not a bad player. Jamison is all-star calibre and has in fact been on two all-star teams. I just find it funny that anyone compares them. It's like comparing Danny to Lebron. Only homers think they are comparable...and Danny's my favorite player.

Jamison has an extra year on his contract. He's also older, turning 34 at the end of this year.

Anthem
01-16-2010, 02:42 PM
Or maybe he has no ulterior motivation at all and just wants to do his best for the team that pays him.
This.

Troy played pretty hard last year, too. I think he's a good guy who wants to win.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 02:54 PM
This.

Troy played pretty hard last year, too. I think he's a good guy who wants to win.
I don't consider HOPE to be some negative, ulterior motive. He's on the verge of being traded to his first playoff team ever from a team that's got debates going about whether they should tank or risk coming up just short of the playoffs.

In fact the general discussions about players "dogging it" in reaction to JOB or his system can be better put as players just not being inspired by the situation, feeling confident, or understanding the general direction.

You don't have to be a d*** to have better efforts when you are feeling good compared to when you are feeling frustrated. Turning it into that kind of choice, jerk vs good person, it poisons the actual commentary and discussion.

Troy had one of his best games on offense ever as a Pacer. Are we saying that's just luck because he's always tried hard and always been feeling as equally upbeat about his pending future?

I don't buy it. I've met human beings. I've seen them in action. Situations and emotions do impact their behavior. We could be wrong about what is having that impact, but something was different.

McKeyFan
01-16-2010, 02:59 PM
I've met human beings. I've seen them in action. Situations and emotions do impact their behavior.

That must have been a great experiment, Seth. Did you come back in after a couple of hours?

:D

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 03:19 PM
On the game, without having the chance to check the thread much yet.

Troy's offense was great. It was the most balanced I can ever remember it. I love seeing him with the 45% 3pt as the BUMP, as the dagger shot rather than the go-to move. Also I saw Troy get more seriously contested tough defensive rebounds than I can ever recall. He was well clear when Watson and Granger (IIRC) crashed into each other for a defensive board.

Having said that, this was the nets and mostly Yi and Humphries. And Yi especially was clearly giving him matchup problems at the other end. He simply couldn't keep anyone in front of him on defense.

But the bottom line is that the offensive choices he made were great, sometimes inspired, and the defensive board stats were finally 100% earned, legit numbers with big impact. That's a sum in the positive for him which helped the team plenty.


Rush - I'm almost tired of defending him. This is Rush. He won't always have this kind of scoring night. Accept it and move on. He'll ALWAYS give you tough defense, elite rebounding by SG standards, and overall good interaction with his teammates. Head getting hurt actually helped because it got him out of the started SG defender role which is a tough spot for him.

Head should be that scoring punch from the bench, especially after the main SG has sat for the opponent. His size issues plus just not being super defensively talented put him in bad spots against any bigger or stronger SG with a decent offensive ability. Basically to me Head is the replacement for TJ, who should have been in the Jason Terry role in the first place.

Price was brilliant again. His modest numbers don't come close to telling the overall story of how much more functional he is as a true playmaker PG that gets things started well. Yes he's still forcing 3-4 plays a game that go bad, but his sum total is in the black by a fair margin and he's not really a big drop in defense on quicker PGs (from Watson).

With Price you watch where he goes off the ball, where he takes the dribble to, and the types of passes he sees and can make.

Speaking of...Solo owes Price a few assists. Yet another game where he's set up for the 2 step baseline dunk and gets totally stuffed. This is why you need McRoberts in there. For all the downplaying of the impact of a guy that can get up over people for a real dunk, as if that's for highlight time only, that's a skill. Solo on offense just doesn't have the power.

Solo does play a decent shot blocker and I do like him as the normal Roy backup, but I think we are seeing plenty of situations where McBob would have been a better answer than Solo due to his two way game and the fact that he doesn't cost you all that much in shot blocking potential.


Dun and Granger getting on track - that speaks for itself. No one on PD would argue that those guys playing in good to great form aren't giving you a serious bump.


Roy - this is what you want, set the expectations exactly where he was last night. 12-14 most nights with the occassional big night. 4-5 just outstanding passes, several over the top feeds to the front of the rim for Granger. As long as Roy stays back on PnR rather than chasing a block he won't get anyway, he can stay out there and be a vital part of the plan.

Really just the perfect game from what I want out of him.

DJones has the great dunk, that was a ton of fun. I like him in the somewhat reduced role, or the "pick the situation" role. Sometimes he's going to apply a ton, sometimes he's not quite the right fit. Coming off the bench and letting the coach identify trouble spots or places where you need a "cooler" is the perfect role for him. I want him to get PT, but it doesn't have to be 30 minutes every night, neither should it be only 5.

Head I already mentioned. Let him be your ball handling 6th man 3pt scoring bump guy off the bench, and like DJones pick the spots when you need and can use his punch. Don't start him and don't always force him to go hunting shots when you have multiple scorers out there with him. Use him when the rest of the offense is drying up, he'll spark it back to life. Avoid getting him into horrible defensive assignments.


Watson - ugh. Boy he's struggling right now. He was just punished by Harris. I know that's going to happen, but Price was clearly better at staying in front of him. Watson's offense has been a bit spotty lately too, so if he's not your PG defender then he's not giving you a good overall impact.

I've said you aren't ready to start Price, but I think I was wrong. Right now starting Price seems like the smart thing to do, then let Watson play the backup PG. Watson back to 20 minutes is fine, and that might get him back on track a bit. Definitely want him in the rotation, but he is getting older and he did have some struggles last year too (part of the reason he's in Indy after all).


Tyler - he shot one really nice mid-range jumper with good form. He kinda got a sloppy play steal. He's wearing a shin compressor on his right leg. End of comments, I'm tired of peeing in the wind on this one.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 03:24 PM
That must have been a great experiment, Seth. Did you come back in after a couple of hours?

:D
Are you kidding!?! Of course I did. They're dirty! And smelly too!
:yuck:

Plus as I said, so emotional. Waa waa waa, my team sucks. Waa waa waa, gimme John Wall.

We have a saying among my people :cylon: which roughly translates to "sack up".

BillS
01-16-2010, 03:26 PM
I think where Price hurts you if he starts is that he is still a little turnover prone, mostly because he is a rookie and isn't used to some of the ways defenders see passing lanes and loss of concentration on ball handling.

I'd be worried starting him because some of the stronger defenders in the league will simply eat him alive. I don't think that helps his confidence, nor do I think it teaches him anything in particular.

Note that I'm not saying other PGs on the team are necessarily NOT going to turnover the ball - we've seen that, certainly. I'm saying that I think AJ and turnovers might be like a rookie big man and fouls - the kinds of things that happen and get the player very frustrated because they know immediately what they did wrong but can't see ahead yet. It's one of the reasons PGs take longer to get to strength in the NBA.

Other than that, I think he is well on his way to being a very strong point guard and needs to get significant minutes.

duke dynamite
01-16-2010, 03:30 PM
Watson - ugh. Boy he's struggling right now. He was just punished by Harris. I know that's going to happen, but Price was clearly better at staying in front of him. Watson's offense has been a bit spotty lately too, so if he's not your PG defender then he's not giving you a good overall impact.

I've said you aren't ready to start Price, but I think I was wrong. Right now starting Price seems like the smart thing to do, then let Watson play the backup PG. Watson back to 20 minutes is fine, and that might get him back on track a bit. Definitely want him in the rotation, but he is getting older and he did have some struggles last year too (part of the reason he's in Indy after all).

I think that's the best benefit of having Price playing as well as he is. Watson has had some really good nights lately, and he was bound to let one or two go eventually. I'm still a little hesitant on letting Price start, because I really like the role he is in right now. Because if you need to get Earl out of the game, he's there. However, I will not be upset if he is put in the starting rotation anytime soon.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 03:35 PM
Yeah, one comment on the "it's the Nets" angle. Boy, those guys just don't shoot well. The game got blown open simply off a serious of poor shooting efforts by the Nets. The stats tell you they aren't good shooters, but seeing them in action and the kinds of looks or plays they can make. I thought maybe TWill's shooting was hurting them, but heck he fits right in so you might as well play him.

One major issue to me is Harris out there with BOTH CDR and Lee at the same time. That's too much of a duplication of roles. CDR to the bench with TWill starting. You get TWill's defense and passing, let Harris and Lee be the shooters with of course half the offense working off of Lopez.

I'm not just saying this as a TWill fan because I'm admitting that his shot has been poor enough to not play. But with Harris, Lee and Lopez out there you don't need TWill shooting and I think he could fill a very similar role to what Rush does with the Pacers (when you have Danny, Dun, etc going).

CDR is a big volume shooter which makes great sense off the bench.

The Nets are going to get a good draft pick, change coaches and end up getting a lot better quickly. Way more talent than results (ahem, also see The Bulls). NBA coaching does matter quite a bit, despite the old wives' tales.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 03:42 PM
I think where Price hurts you if he starts is that he is still a little turnover prone, mostly because he is a rookie and isn't used to some of the ways defenders see passing lanes and loss of concentration on ball handling.

I'd be worried starting him because some of the stronger defenders in the league will simply eat him alive. I don't think that helps his confidence, nor do I think it teaches him anything in particular.

Note that I'm not saying other PGs on the team are necessarily NOT going to turnover the ball - we've seen that, certainly. I'm saying that I think AJ and turnovers might be like a rookie big man and fouls - the kinds of things that happen and get the player very frustrated because they know immediately what they did wrong but can't see ahead yet. It's one of the reasons PGs take longer to get to strength in the NBA.

Other than that, I think he is well on his way to being a very strong point guard and needs to get significant minutes.
A little secret with Watson is that so is he. He got away with 3 different blatant travels vs Phoenix and I've noticed lately that he's somewhat lacking good direction change moves. He kinda gets committed to a direction and that can lead to TOs or him stuck in a trap or forcing a shot.

Price OTOH is making the kind of bad plays I can live with, he's trying to be aggressive with his passing and sometimes tries to make plays that aren't there. Not only that, but some of his TOs are coming from guys not being ready for the play. For example, I think it was the Tyler play where he ended up taking the disgusting lane runner miss that started with Price going baseline to the rim and then slinging a bullet to TH (or whomever) in the corner. Whichever player it was clearly was not expecting it and fumbled the ball. I think it was TH and that's where he ended up going into that poor move to the rim as part of the recovery.

Price is dumping stuff to Solo at the rim that needs to be caught cleanly and put in. Not only did he get stuffed for the 2nd straight game (vs PHX he got the foul call at least), but IIRC he fumbled one away in traffic too.

That doesn't take Price off the hook, but the overall types of plays remind me far more of good Tinsley who was a bit too aggressive himself. The impact of an aggressive passing PG is that other players learn to stay on their toes more and stay more involved overall because they know it can come there way at any time, especially if they work to get open.




Also I think Price works best when paired with Roy and Rush specifically, and I'd prefer them starting as a combo.


And I'm not throwing Watson under the bus here. I like his overall impact on games for the most part. But he is struggling just a bit and strikes me much more as a perfect backup PG type. I think he'd shine there.


PS - with the play of TJ and now some of the stuff with see with Luther and Watson, it's hard not to wonder how much of that quick trigger and iffy 3pt choices are being mandated by JOB. Maybe TJ paired with JOB was the perfect storm?

imawhat
01-16-2010, 03:43 PM
At the very least, they should try Price as a starter to see how he responds. I agree with BillS that he might be turnover prone. I think ballhandling might be a weakness.

Earl looks like he's hit a wall. I don't think playing the entire first quarter is helping him.

I think we're starting to see other players improve and I have to wonder how much TJ's absence plays into that. There's no doubt that Rush plays better with Watson and Price. Hibbert looks better, Danny looks much better (though Danny's problem was shot selection), and Dahntay looks better. Most surprisingly though is that Troy is playing better. I thought TJ and Troy had great chemistry on the court, but the other guys are doing a good job of finding him. In general a lot of the team is playing better and I think the players/O'Brien deserve the credit, but I'm wondering if any of it would disappear if TJ returned to the lineup.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 03:47 PM
Cool feeling to win 3 in a row, but..well...we're now 7th in the John Wall - standings...
And maybe first in the Patterson standings. So basically it's a double win.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 03:52 PM
Yeah man, he was a badass last night. That might have the most efficient game I have ever seen anyone play.
Totally forgot to mention the #1 sequence of the night.

CDR drives lane getting slightly ahead of Rush, Rush takes the ball from him from behind. Not tipped to a teammate, actually grabbed by Rush himself. Rush then outlets to Price, Price pushes it ahead with a nice pass to Granger, he misses the 3pt shot and it's rebounded by...Rush, who has gone b***s out to catch up to the play. Rush then gets it on the arc for the 3pt make.

Steal, quick outlet pass, OReb, 3pt make, 14 seconds. Credit to Price for a great move to protect the outlet pass from a steal attempt.

Not highlight stuff, just brilliant, high quality fundamental play.

Sookie
01-16-2010, 04:04 PM
Someone who also CLEARLY plays better with AJ is Dunleavy.

You can tell Dunleavy loves having a smart PG, who'll make the nice pass and set up a nice play.

I think Rush does well with either Watson or Price. He likes the system, and both Watson and Price are system PGs. With Price though, there is a little bit of that "ying and yang" there, where AJ is a little more aggressive offensively, which allows Rush to do his thing. On the other side, Watson's a little more passive, and that might force some better things out of Rush.

Granger's another interesting one. I'm not sure if AJ and Granger have "great" chemistry or not, personally I think they do, or will. But I do think, AJ has been a very positive impact on Granger mentally. Granger thinks AJ is good, Granger trusts AJ, and in OKC, Granger saw another Pacer FIGHTING for a win. I think the same can be said for Dahntay. Who clearly wanted AJ to get playing time, and likes to play with him.

Hibbert with AJ. I think it's just more of a waste to put AJ with Solo, rather than Hibbert. It's not that Watson and Hibbert play bad together, it's more that AJ's natural tendency is to set up the "big man" and setting up Solo...well it'd be better for AJ's stats to put him with Hibbert :P

AJ and the turnovers, to be fair, he's had 3 turnovers once since getting time. Most of the time he's got 1. He could mentally handle starting. Because, personally, I don't think AJ cares much about turnovers. That sounds bad, but really, I think he gets more frustrated when players get by him (I haven't seen him more frustrated than when he went up against Nash)..usually when he commits a turnover, he just makes sure to do something positive the next play.

That being said. I really think JOB should be using AJ and Watson depending on the situation. And what is more important is PLAYER COMBINATIONS. If the team continues the pattern of getting down by a lot, perhaps a more offensively talanted and energetic guy should start, and having the "solid" Watson off the bench. But I also think, in that situation, if AJ gets a little too "Tylerish" (for lack of better word) ..maybe a bit too much energy, than bringing in Watson to settle him down, wouldn't be a bad idea. The same goes for end of games. Obviously, AJ's shown he's pretty good down the stretch, but if he's having a rookie night, or if Earl is having a fantastic night, going with Earl is the better option. The point is, JOB needs to go with what's happening on the court, and not with "Veteran's always the better choice" or "AJ shoots 60% in crunch time."

DrFife
01-16-2010, 04:07 PM
Funny stuff....

A question about AJ: IIRC, last summer projections about his recovery to full health were put at this spring. I wonder how close he is to 100% now? Assuming he isn't, I wonder what TPTB see in an improved AJ after a summer of post-rehab strength & mobility training? Perhaps we're seeing merely an 80% version of our future starting PG. :nod:

BillS
01-16-2010, 04:09 PM
I definitely notice that AJ knows how to get the ball to a shooter in the right place and in rhythm.

Sookie
01-16-2010, 04:11 PM
Funny stuff....

A question about AJ: IIRC, last summer projections about his recovery to full health were put at this spring. I wonder how close he is to 100% now? Assuming he isn't, I wonder what TPTB see in an improved AJ after a summer of post-rehab strength & mobility training? Perhaps we're seeing merely an 80% version of our future starting PG. :nod:

Supposedly he should be fully recovered by about March. But it's an ACL injury, it might not be until next season until he's fully healed.

I will say, he trusts his knee a heck of a lot more this season then he did last year in college. And he's got a much easier job driving to the basket, his only problem is "that really big guy who walks over and blocks his layup, everyonce in a while" :laugh:

Anthem
01-16-2010, 04:32 PM
PS - with the play of JT and now some of the stuff with see with Luther and Watson, it's hard not to wonder how much of that quick trigger and iffy 3pt choices are being mandated by JOB. Maybe JT paired with JOB was the perfect storm?
Fixed?

Anthem
01-16-2010, 04:33 PM
Someone who also CLEARLY plays better with AJ is Dunleavy.

You can tell Dunleavy loves having a smart PG, who'll make the nice pass and set up a nice play.
That makes a ton of sense. I hadn't noticed it, but I'll watch for it from now on.

imawhat
01-16-2010, 04:46 PM
Funny stuff....

A question about AJ: IIRC, last summer projections about his recovery to full health were put at this spring. I wonder how close he is to 100% now? Assuming he isn't, I wonder what TPTB see in an improved AJ after a summer of post-rehab strength & mobility training? Perhaps we're seeing merely an 80% version of our future starting PG. :nod:

That's an interesting thought.

I saw him make a pretty explosive move near half-court last night; it was much more explosive than any move I saw him make at UConn (though I don't remember him pre ACL).

It's really hard to judge because I don't see ill effects, but it looks like he's close to 100%.

Btw, it's about time the Pacers got great value for a draft pick re: draft position. Like Seth, I was a big fan of Price while he was at UConn.

Los Angeles
01-16-2010, 04:47 PM
That's an interesting thought.

I saw him make a pretty explosive move near half-court last night; it was much more explosive than any move I saw him make at UConn (though I don't remember him pre ACL).

It's really hard to judge because I don't see ill effects, but it looks like he's close to 100%.

Speaking of injury, I'll take this opportunity to say that Dunleavy isn't favoring his leg nearly as much as he was a couple of weeks ago.

imawhat
01-16-2010, 04:53 PM
I thought Dunleavy looked the best he's looked all season against Phoenix, but he was back to having his problems last night.

He cannot stop or make a cut to avoid collisions while driving, and then he loses handle of the ball because of his high dribble/lack of bending knees. It happened during last night's game and it led to a 24-second violation.

It just looks like there's little strength there, along with some pain/lack of mobility. The big difference between last night and two weeks ago is that his legs are finally under his shot, but there's still something missing.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2010, 05:00 PM
With Price though, there is a little bit of that "ying and yang" there, where AJ is a little more aggressive offensively, which allows Rush to do his thing.
Good point. When I read it I thought "yep, that's what it is, Price is a take charge guy that lets Rush play off of his choices, just like it was with Chalmers". It's like Rush doesn't want to make the first move, he wants to react to someone else's move


Hibbert with AJ. I think it's just more of a waste to put AJ with Solo, rather than Hibbert. It's not that Watson and Hibbert play bad together, it's more that AJ's natural tendency is to set up the "big man" and setting up Solo...well it'd be better for AJ's stats to put him with Hibbert :P
That's exactly it. I like AJ with Roy because in summer ball they just looked very natural together, they both had the same objective in mind on plays. Roy knew what AJ was up to and was ready to work with him. Roy isn't surprised by an AJ pass, he expects it.


Watson off the bench. But I also think, in that situation, if AJ gets a little too "Tylerish" (for lack of better word) ..maybe a bit too much energy, than bringing in Watson to settle him down, wouldn't be a bad idea.
Totally agree.

That's the thing with stuff like Price and McRoberts. If you rant about a guy not getting used properly it gets twisted into "he must play 35 minutes and I assure you those will be 35 of the most perfectly played minutes ever".

I don't want Watson out nor do I think Price won't ever need to come out of games because it's not working. It's a team, and there are a lot of nice tools in that toolbox for just about any situation.

I don't mind rosters and rotations juggling a bit from game to game either.

What I mind is the constant changing of ROLES and EXPECTATIONS. It's actually worse to see Head taken from nothing (wrong) to play huge starter minutes no matter what (also wrong).

I don't think McRoberts should be playing 40 minutes. I just want him in for 10-15. I don't think Price is a 38 minute starter yet, and I don't really love huge minutes for starters anyway if you've got even a decent level of bench talent. The Pacers do have a bench, at least relative to the starting talent, so they should all have their specialty and by now fans should know those roles well from seeing them used that way over and over.

But that hasn't been the case, and it hasn't been as simple as injury issues.



Price gets flustered, in comes Watson to calm it. Crowd is happy to see it.

Roy is getting killed on dribble drives, in comes Solo. Crowd is happy.

There's no offense and Rush is having an off night, in comes Luther, crowd is happy.

When the team was better you just knew when the next sub was coming based on the flow of the game. You weren't surprised to see the application of Perkins or Mullin or McKey, or later the use of Harrington or Fred Jones. There was a problem and everyone in the building knew who the solution was on the bench.

To his credit, late as it might be, it does seem that JOB is slowly working into this type of situation. I don't think we saw this at all the last 2 years or the start of this one. Last year they had big wins, but those often looked like hustle and 3 bombs more than structure.

The 5 game streak crowd, they want to see structure because that was the overarching theme of the play at that point.

Los Angeles
01-16-2010, 05:24 PM
I thought Dunleavy looked the best he's looked all season against Phoenix, but he was back to having his problems last night.

He cannot stop or make a cut to avoid collisions while driving, and then he loses handle of the ball because of his high dribble/lack of bending knees. It happened during last night's game and it led to a 24-second violation.

It just looks like there's little strength there, along with some pain/lack of mobility. The big difference between last night and two weeks ago is that his legs are finally under his shot, but there's still something missing.

I've been through rehab. You can't pay too much attention to the hills and valleys. You have to take a much wider view to see trends. I think Dun has continued to trend upward. He'll be so much better this time next year. The timing of his surgery/recovery track with his contract schedule is likely not completely coincidental. (meaning once surgery was 90% likely they jumped on it so that he could recover in time to show his new worth before negotiations).

dal9
01-16-2010, 06:53 PM
in defense of Solomon, that stuff by Humphries was a blatant foul, per the replay.

PacerGuy
01-16-2010, 08:12 PM
If you score more then he opponent at the end of regulation, but McBob doesn't play, can you actually call it a "Win"?

I didn't think so. :(


Riiight. I see a W on the box score. Last time I checked that was a win.

Fixed!
(shoulda added the green! ;) )
Dukie, I agree - I love a win!

JohnnyBGoode
01-16-2010, 08:43 PM
Troy is playing very well and deserves credit for his efforts. However, there are several reasons why I don't want him starting at the 4.

Basically, his game...on both sides of the court...is the opposite of what I want in a PF...and what I believe is needed to advance in the playoffs. It's even worse when he's playing next to Roy Hibbert who is a weak defender himself. Nobody is protecting the rim against drivers with those guys in the game. Bring me an Antonio McDyess or Dale Davis type player. That's what I believe helps you at that particular position. Against good teams, players can go over, through and past Troy too easily. These shortcomings put a cap on how good this team can be defensively.

On offense, he's good but for a perimeter guy he is far from mobile. Let the guys who can actually move on offense get open for threes. You need that ability when the game is on the line. For example, Granger and Dunleavy are usually moving when they launch a 3....while Troy is planted. That doesn't work very well when teams crank up the D in the 4th quarter. That's his achille's heal. His value is diminished down the stretch because his offensive game wilts under defensive pressure. It is too easy to defend. When you combine that with his defensive weaknesses, he hurts you late in 75% of games against .500 or better teams. Also, his presence on the floor allows the team to go crazy shooting 3's...which is a poor strategy to compete at the highest level. Instead, a more deliberate style is usually more effective in the playoffs. That's why the ultra talented Suns and Mavs never won a ring. Helter skelter offense is a farce....and I think Troy provides JOb the tool to up the ante on the run-n-gun BS of an offense.



Great game against NJ: 21 points, 67% shooting, 50% 3-P shooting, 14 rebounds (no one else had more than 6), 3 assists, and only 1 TO.

What the heck more do you want or expect from that position? You can wish for Dale to walk through the door all you want, but he ain't going to. Right now, who do want to play instead of Troy at the PF spot? Guess what he is the best option the Pacers have at the present time so dreaming of Dale is just that dreaming. I'm not all that sure that I would take Dale over Troy for that matter. The league is changing and the days of the Dale Davis type PF's is gone. Get used to the NBA going in the direction of the stretch PF and Murph just happens to be one of the best stretch PFs.

BlueNGold
01-18-2010, 10:37 AM
Great game against NJ: 21 points, 67% shooting, 50% 3-P shooting, 14 rebounds (no one else had more than 6), 3 assists, and only 1 TO.

What the heck more do you want or expect from that position? You can wish for Dale to walk through the door all you want, but he ain't going to. Right now, who do want to play instead of Troy at the PF spot? Guess what he is the best option the Pacers have at the present time so dreaming of Dale is just that dreaming. I'm not all that sure that I would take Dale over Troy for that matter. The league is changing and the days of the Dale Davis type PF's is gone. Get used to the NBA going in the direction of the stretch PF and Murph just happens to be one of the best stretch PFs.

Next time the great Troy Murphy plays in a single playoff game, let me know.

The fact is, none of the best teams in the NBA rely on a stretch PF.

The best team in the league (LA) has a front line of Bynum, Gasol and Odom. None are prolific 3pt shooters...even their SF.

The second best team in the NBA (Cleveland) has a front line of Shaq, Hickson/Varejao. They have a total of 1 converted 3 pointer on 5 attempts.

The third best team in the NBA (Boston) has a front line of Perkins and Garnett. They have attempted a total of three 3 pointers all year.

The bottom line: The stretch PF in the NBA almost guarantees failure and is only one reason why Troy hurts your chances.

BTW, if we subbed a young Dale Davis for Troy Murphy, we would immediately be in the playoffs. Even with our current record, we would have a decent shot at making it.

OakMoses
01-18-2010, 05:02 PM
The fact is, none of the best teams in the NBA rely on a stretch PF.


Orlando?

BlueNGold
01-18-2010, 05:18 PM
Orlando?

Orlando has a good front line because Dwight is the best big in the entire league. In any event, they are not even leading their division. The Hawks, who arguably have less talent than the Magic, have a better record even though their PF hasn't converted a single 3 all year...and has only shot 3 of them.

Also, what happened to the Magic last year? how many championships has Dirk had? This is all about what works best.

JohnnyBGoode
01-18-2010, 05:18 PM
Next time the great Troy Murphy plays in a single playoff game, let me know.

The fact is, none of the best teams in the NBA rely on a stretch PF.

The best team in the league (LA) has a front line of Bynum, Gasol and Odom. None are prolific 3pt shooters...even their SF.

The second best team in the NBA (Cleveland) has a front line of Shaq, Hickson/Varejao. They have a total of 1 converted 3 pointer on 5 attempts.

The third best team in the NBA (Boston) has a front line of Perkins and Garnett. They have attempted a total of three 3 pointers all year.

The bottom line: The stretch PF in the NBA almost guarantees failure and is only one reason why Troy hurts your chances.

BTW, if we subbed a young Dale Davis for Troy Murphy, we would immediately be in the playoffs. Even with our current record, we would have a decent shot at making it.


Once again, why do you hate Troy so much? It is obvious that it is more than just what he brings to the table. Dale would hurt the team as much as he would help. Just saying he would doesn't make it so, back it up with stats. Dale was a good rebounder and defender but his offense and poor free throw shooting also was a detriment.

Peck
01-18-2010, 05:24 PM
Once again, why do you hate Troy so much? It is obvious that it is more than just what he brings to the table. Dale would hurt the team as much as he would help. Just saying he would doesn't make it so, back it up with stats. Dale was a good rebounder and defender but his offense and poor free throw shooting also was a detriment.

Why does all of this sound familiar to me???

JohnnyBGoode
01-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Why does all of this sound familiar to me???

http://www.cavstheblog.com/?p=626

cavstheblog

John Krolik


Don't know what you are referring to however read this article for starters. Let's see now you are the second upright citizen of the board that has made odd comments toward me. :confused:

McKeyFan
01-18-2010, 05:59 PM
http://www.cavstheblog.com/?p=626

cavstheblog

John Krolik


Don't know what you are referring to however read this article for starters. Let's see now you are the second upright citizen of the board that has made odd comments toward me. :confused:

Only two?

You must living cautiously.

OakMoses
01-18-2010, 06:05 PM
Orlando has a good front line because Dwight is the best big in the entire league. In any event, they are not even leading their division. The Hawks, who arguably have less talent than the Magic, have a better record even though their PF hasn't converted a single 3 all year...and has only shot 3 of them.

Also, what happened to the Magic last year? how many championships has Dirk had? This is all about what works best.

I'm by no means a big fan of the stretch 4. However, you really can't say that none of the best teams in the NBA rely on them. Orlando made the NBA finals last year. Dallas has the 4th most wins in the NBA. Phoenix won a ton of games with Shawn Marion as their PF.

You can say that stretch 4's don't win championships and I'll agree with you, but you're implying that you can't be a good NBA team while relying on a one, and that's silly.

BlueNGold
01-18-2010, 07:27 PM
I'm by no means a big fan of the stretch 4. However, you really can't say that none of the best teams in the NBA rely on them. Orlando made the NBA finals last year. Dallas has the 4th most wins in the NBA. Phoenix won a ton of games with Shawn Marion as their PF.

You can say that stretch 4's don't win championships and I'll agree with you, but you're implying that you can't be a good NBA team while relying on a one, and that's silly.

I can go with this. I just think it's a strategy that falls short of the best one. I think history has proven that teams like Dallas, which has the best stretch forward in the game, are not built to win the big one...and I thought that was the goal...although certain other teams in Indy don't want to reach for the stars so maybe I shouldn't be surprised...;)

Back to Orlando, they have a crazy amount of talent but focusing so much on Lewis as a stetch 4 misses the fact they simply have by far the most dominant big man in the NBA. He makes up for not having a big at the 4 position. There are very, very few Centers who can carry that load...and he may be the only one.

But yes, there will always be good teams that have a PF who has no interior presence on either end of the floor. They just won't win it all.

BlueNGold
01-18-2010, 07:46 PM
Once again, why do you hate Troy so much? It is obvious that it is more than just what he brings to the table. Dale would hurt the team as much as he would help. Just saying he would doesn't make it so, back it up with stats. Dale was a good rebounder and defender but his offense and poor free throw shooting also was a detriment.

Once again, why do you keep defending him so much...:-p

Rather than Troy's empty stats, why don't we just look at the results? Which player do you think made an all-star team? Which player was a force in the paint for a perennial contender...and even made it to the finals, not merely some 8 seed playoff team? How many playoff games has Troy Murphy participated in?

The fact is, Dale is the type of PF that helps you advance in the playoffs. He was a huge reason the Pacers were perennial contenders and reached the finals for many years. Without Dale Davis, Rik Smits would be planted on the bench because his foul rate would approach Roy Hibbert's rookie rate....and that great offense would have come to a grinding halt.

It takes defense, from somebody for goodness sakes. Take your pick. Roy or Troy has to go.

imawhat
01-18-2010, 10:08 PM
Once again, why do you hate Troy so much? It is obvious that it is more than just what he brings to the table. Dale would hurt the team as much as he would help. Just saying he would doesn't make it so, back it up with stats. Dale was a good rebounder and defender but his offense and poor free throw shooting also was a detriment.

I guess you could say any player not shooting 1.00% with 0 TOs is in some way hurting their team, but this debate is getting borderline shaky at best.

The Pacers from '93-'00 never needed Dale's scoring. The team always had plenty of scorers and good offensive players (Reggie, Rik, Jax, Mullin, Byron, Rose, Best, etc.), and was one of the most efficient offenses I've ever seen (towards '97-'00). We were never hurting because Dale shot 56% on his 2.5 FTA/game.

Dale was probably the 3rd/4th most important player on those teams. His impact on our games is undeniable.

Meanwhile this year's team has multiple issues, offensively and defensively. Mainly, we've struggled defensively, and nicely put, Troy is not helping us there. I'd say our main issue last year appeared to be dribble penetration. That's gone away somewhat, but we appear to be just as weak defensively because we have nobody on the inside to make a stop. We have Hibbert, who fouls out trying, and Murphy, who more often than not doesn't try (though he's making a good habit of stealing entry passes).

How about intangibles? Dale brought a toughness/fear that very few players have ever brought. Ask Dennis Rodman who he feared playing against. I vividly remember when Rodman played on the Spurs and was getting into the heads of several Pacers. Not too long after Sam Mitchell was ejected for shoving Rodman to the ground, Dale came over and said something to Rodman, and Rodman basically froze for the rest of the game (the remaining 0:20 or so seconds that were left, anyway, but the point is Dale ended the BS that was going on).

You think players fear Murphy? Opponents probably salivate over the chance of being guarded by him. I would. I don't think he's feared offensively either. He runs to one spot repeatedly (one of the easiest things to scout in the NBA) yet finds himself wide open for 3-4 three pointers/game. Why? Because teams don't care (imo); they can live with him shooting wide open three pointers while he stands non-involved the other 70% of the time.

Brad8888
01-19-2010, 12:47 AM
Why does all of this sound familiar to me???

Mr. GuffeyRay I would presume.

BRushWithDeath
01-19-2010, 03:50 AM
Mr. GuffeyRay I would presume.

And Country Boy.

BillS
01-19-2010, 10:38 AM
The Pacers from '93-'00 never needed Dale's scoring. The team always had plenty of scorers and good offensive players (Reggie, Rik, Jax, Mullin, Byron, Rose, Best, etc.), and was one of the most efficient offenses I've ever seen (towards '97-'00). We were never hurting because Dale shot 56% on his 2.5 FTA/game.

Not true. Those teams really needed a solid 3rd scoring option, and until late in the run didn't come close to having one.

This is the root of why Satan McKey yclept such by some.

What you are trying to say is that Dale was never EXPECTED to be a scoring option and was not used as such, so was not in a position to be blamed for doing exactly what he was asked to do.

OakMoses
01-19-2010, 01:00 PM
I can go with this. I just think it's a strategy that falls short of the best one. I think history has proven that teams like Dallas, which has the best stretch forward in the game, are not built to win the big one...and I thought that was the goal...although certain other teams in Indy don't want to reach for the stars so maybe I shouldn't be surprised...;)

Back to Orlando, they have a crazy amount of talent but focusing so much on Lewis as a stetch 4 misses the fact they simply have by far the most dominant big man in the NBA. He makes up for not having a big at the 4 position. There are very, very few Centers who can carry that load...and he may be the only one.

But yes, there will always be good teams that have a PF who has no interior presence on either end of the floor. They just won't win it all.

I don't want to keep kicking a dead horse because I think we agree more than we disagree. However, the Pistons did win a title with 'Sheed, though he's far from a typical stretch PF since he has a considerable post game. Also, there was a dude named Robert Horry who won a few championships.

Of course, Rasheed had Ben Wallace and Horry had Hakeem and Shaq.

So really what your saying is that unless you're pairing your stretch 4 with a HOF caliber big, then you're in trouble. I agree and history seems to lend some evidence.

The more important thing to me is that Troy is a unique kind of stretch 4: one that can't defend his position.

BornReady
01-19-2010, 01:16 PM
I'm by no means a big fan of the stretch 4. However, you really can't say that none of the best teams in the NBA rely on them. Orlando made the NBA finals last year. Dallas has the 4th most wins in the NBA. Phoenix won a ton of games with Shawn Marion as their PF.

You can say that stretch 4's don't win championships and I'll agree with you, but you're implying that you can't be a good NBA team while relying on a one, and that's silly.

the difference is that while these teams do have "stretch" forwards, they can do a lot more than just stretch. lets face it, murphy is only good for draining 3s (and ill give that to him, hes very good at shooting them) and grabbing rebounds that are created for him.
rashard lewis's game is A LOT more versatile than murphy- rashard is far more athletic, can post up, can create his own shot. he also happens to have the ability to hot 3s.
dirk is...awesome. at EVERYTHING he does. to compare dirk to murphy is a joke. he does a hell of a lot more than stretch the offense. hes extraordinarily versatile.
marion can shoot and do two key things murphy can: drive to the hoop and defend.

i guess the point im trying to make is that these stretch pfs do a lot more than just stretch. they are extraordinarily versatile and bring a lot more to the table than just 3s. and yes, i do think relying on a pf just to stretch the offense is silly.

BlueNGold
01-19-2010, 11:46 PM
I don't want to keep kicking a dead horse because I think we agree more than we disagree. However, the Pistons did win a title with 'Sheed, though he's far from a typical stretch PF since he has a considerable post game. Also, there was a dude named Robert Horry who won a few championships.

Of course, Rasheed had Ben Wallace and Horry had Hakeem and Shaq.

So really what your saying is that unless you're pairing your stretch 4 with a HOF caliber big, then you're in trouble. I agree and history seems to lend some evidence.

The more important thing to me is that Troy is a unique kind of stretch 4: one that can't defend his position.

On Sheed, he is one of the best defensive PF's of the last 20 years and had a very effective prime-time post game. The fact he shot an occasional 3 is not a bad thing at all. It's only bad when you can't defend, block shots or post up. But Sheed did all that.

As for Horry, certainly playing with perhaps the best defensive C in history helped him...but he wasn't a bad defender either. In fact, he was quite the shot-blocker earlier in his career. Yes, he could stroke the 3...but again we are talking about a long, lean athletic 4 who could make you eat leather. These are not players anything like Troy Murphy.

Actually, what I'm saying is that if you have a stretch 4, he better do more than stretch. As a PF, he absolutely must be a good defensive player or Hibbert is going to have a very long career...and not in a good way.

BlueNGold
01-19-2010, 11:47 PM
the difference is that while these teams do have "stretch" forwards, they can do a lot more than just stretch. lets face it, murphy is only good for draining 3s (and ill give that to him, hes very good at shooting them) and grabbing rebounds that are created for him.
rashard lewis's game is A LOT more versatile than murphy- rashard is far more athletic, can post up, can create his own shot. he also happens to have the ability to hot 3s.
dirk is...awesome. at EVERYTHING he does. to compare dirk to murphy is a joke. he does a hell of a lot more than stretch the offense. hes extraordinarily versatile.
marion can shoot and do two key things murphy can: drive to the hoop and defend.

i guess the point im trying to make is that these stretch pfs do a lot more than just stretch. they are extraordinarily versatile and bring a lot more to the table than just 3s. and yes, i do think relying on a pf just to stretch the offense is silly.

Seriously, I did not read your post before I posted. Obviously, I agree.

:buddies: