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View Full Version : Rank them part 1 (the point guards)



Peck
01-15-2010, 02:01 AM
This is pretty simple here is a list of some of our starting point guards over the past few seasons. List them in order. You can either list them as best to worst or you can list them as your favorite to least favorite. I am listing them from their time with the team and it is not a listing of the way I would rank them.

Vern Fleming
Pooh Richardson
Haywood Workman
Mark Jackson
Travis Best
Jalen Rose (yes he played part of the 00/01 season as the p.g.)
Jamaal Tinsley
Jarett Jack
T.J. Ford
Earl Watson

I debated putting Jalen in there because he did not play the entire season but I went ahead anyway.

Hicks
01-15-2010, 02:11 AM
I can't personally comment on Fleming, Richardson, or Workman.

Of the rest (best to worst)

Jackson
Tinsley (even with all the warts, this is how lacking we've been in the PG department)
Jack
Watson
Ford
Best
Rose (as a PG; my memory is VERY hazy, but I remember preferring Best at the point over Jalen, who I liked a lot as a SF)

Peck
01-15-2010, 02:15 AM
Here would be my list. I am going with my favorites vs saying who was the best although I do believe that my #1 is actually the best.

1. Mark Jackson (the man was pure magic to watch play)

2. Haywood Workman (nobody got more out of less than Workman)

3. Jamaal Tinsley (Yea I know I ended up being against him but when he was on he was very good and he simply is the best dribbler I've ever seen)

4. Earl Watson (Toss up between Watson and Jack but I think Watson is a better defender)

5. Jarret Jack (solid worker but lacks ball handling and court vision)

6. Jalen Rose (this should tell you how bad our p.g.'s have been over the years that I have to put him here)

7. Vern Fleming (I know some of the older guys liked him but I was just never a fan, not a good passer but a decent defender)


8. Pooh Richardson (Opposite of Workman, very few players got less out of more talent than Pooh)

9. T.J. Ford (I have never seen a point guard who jumps in the air so often without knowing what he is going to do with the ball)

10. Travis Best (dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble,
dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot, clank)

PaceBalls
01-15-2010, 02:41 AM
Mark Jackson, crafty player, awesome passing, great floor general, bad D, but he had all the vet tricks.

JT during the Reggie years, when he had a good team and were winning, he cared and was pretty damn good.

Jarret Jack, I really liked the guy. He was solid, a hardnosed player, I think he would've thrived with our team now. I might end up liking AJP more.

Travis Best, same reasons I liked JJack

adding a selection that wasn't included - Anthony Johnson, good defender, solid vet. He had problems handling the ball, but he could make timely shots, and was good for our slog ball routine.

Earl Watson - Does everything ok. Can be great on D at times, can hit the 3.

TJ - I had high hopes for the guy, and maybe without Jim he would be ok, but he flat out stinks in our system. He does have a very nice mid range game, and he can play good D when he wants to.

Jalen Rose - worst PG ever? That drove me crazy with IT, when Jamaal was banished/ in the doghouse. He also used Ron Mercer at PG which was even worse.

I don't feel qualified to comment on vern, pooh or haywoode. I did see haywoode and vern play a bit, but I was pretty young.

Squirrelz
01-15-2010, 02:43 AM
No Erick Strickland? :P

pacers_heath
01-15-2010, 03:10 AM
Anyone who is ranking workman over jackson is just simply favoring their favorite era. Workman shouldn't even be named in the same sentence as jackson. Mark Jackson is one of the NBA's all-time leading playmakers. Haywoode workman is a nobody...

Mark Jackson
Vern Fleming
Jamaal Tinsley
Travis Best
Haywoode Workman
Pooh Richardson
Jalen Rose
Earl Watson
TJ Ford

Peck
01-15-2010, 03:48 AM
Anyone who is ranking workman over jackson is just simply favoring their favorite era. Workman shouldn't even be named in the same sentence as jackson. Mark Jackson is one of the NBA's all-time leading playmakers. Haywoode workman is a nobody...

Mark Jackson
Vern Fleming
Jamaal Tinsley
Travis Best
Haywoode Workman
Pooh Richardson
Jalen Rose
Earl Watson
TJ Ford

Has anybody ranked Workman over Jackson????:confused:

Also wouldn't Workman and Jackson be from the same era seeing as how Woody was the p.g. the season before Jax came and they were team mates here for a year?

Pacersfan46
01-15-2010, 07:36 AM
Here would be my list. I am going with my favorites vs saying who was the best although I do believe that my #1 is actually the best.

1. Mark Jackson (the man was pure magic to watch play)

2. Haywood Workman (nobody got more out of less than Workman)

3. Jamaal Tinsley (Yea I know I ended up being against him but when he was on he was very good and he simply is the best dribbler I've ever seen)

4. Earl Watson (Toss up between Watson and Jack but I think Watson is a better defender)

5. Jarret Jack (solid worker but lacks ball handling and court vision)

6. Jalen Rose (this should tell you how bad our p.g.'s have been over the years that I have to put him here)

7. Vern Fleming (I know some of the older guys liked him but I was just never a fan, not a good passer but a decent defender)


8. Pooh Richardson (Opposite of Workman, very few players got less out of more talent than Pooh)

9. T.J. Ford (I have never seen a point guard who jumps in the air so often without knowing what he is going to do with the ball)

10. Travis Best (dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble,
dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot, clank)

I would use this list for the most part, except moving Vern Fleming up to #3, because Workman would be #4. Fleming could really finish around the rim. He was ummmm, the complete opposite of TJ Ford.

-- Steve --

duke dynamite
01-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Wow, past "few" years? That's a stretch.

Anyway, Mark Jackson is #1 on this list. Meh on everyone else.

Putnam
01-15-2010, 08:31 AM
Mark Jackson
Haywood Workman

I liked their personalities, and I liked how they played, and I liked what they accomplished.


Vern Fleming

He always seemed gawky to me. But Slick liked him a lot. I always felt that Vern was holding the team back, but maybe he was as good as the teammates he had at the time.

Jarett Jack

Played like Heywoode. Not nearly as good as Heywoode, not as good as some posters remember him.

Pooh Richardson
Earl Watson

OK.


T.J. Ford

Disappointing. When the Pacers traded for him, I was enthused about what his speed could contribute to a wide-open, fast-breakin' gun-slingin' offense. But we never saw it.


Travis Best
Jalen Rose
Jamaal Tinsley

I never saw Best and Rose. After 2005, I only saw bad Tinsley.

MagicRat
01-15-2010, 09:05 AM
1. Jackson
2. Tinsley
3. Workman
4. Fleming
5. Jalen
6. Watson
7. Jack
8. Best
9. Anthony Johnson
10. Ford
11. Richardson



I'm hoping Watson replacing Ford has a similar impact to Haywoode replacing Pooh.........

Unclebuck
01-15-2010, 09:19 AM
OK, I'm only going with your list Peck, minus Jalen. I always have to clarify things. This is not based on talent, but rather what I try and judge every NBA player on - how they impacted winning. So naturally thepoint guards that led us to wins are at the top of the list. Stats mean nothing


1) Mark Jackson
2) Travis Best - so many forget he finished more close games than did Jackson. The best defender of the group. Yes IMO better than Workman defensively, he rarely if ever got beat off the dribble and he was able to stay in front of the really quick point guards. Sure he wasn;t tall, but he was strong and rarely did he have trouble getting posting up.
3) Woody - Mr. Intangible and one of the huge reasons why the team turned around that season after starting 17-24 and finished 48-24 and ECF game 7
4) Jamaal Tinsley - did lead us to 61 wins
5) Vern
6) Jack
7) Watson
8) Ford
9) Pooh Richardson - yeah he was the worst. The coach hated him, his teammates hated him, and he was very soft. Good shooter though

Why so many of you didn't like Travis I'll never understand. But OK, maybe you don't like him, fair enough, I don't like Tinsley, but I placed him at number 4, so I put my hatred aside, and ranked him without regard to whether I liked him or not. TYravis was extremely important to the 1998-2000 Indiana Pacers, and no I'm not talking about the shot he hit against The Bucks in game 5 - he didn't play well in that game. But so many of you are forgetting how many excellent performances he had late in games. if you bought the Pacers DVD box set from a couple of years ago, watch game six at NY and try to tell me he wasn't huge in that game

Unclebuck
01-15-2010, 09:20 AM
I'm hoping Watson replacing Ford has a similar impact to Haywoode replacing Pooh.........

Excellent point

pacers_heath
01-15-2010, 09:31 AM
Has anybody ranked Workman over Jackson????:confused:

Also wouldn't Workman and Jackson be from the same era seeing as how Woody was the p.g. the season before Jax came and they were team mates here for a year?

sorry i decided to get on pacers digest after going out to the bar last night lol

cinotimz
01-15-2010, 09:47 AM
I have to agree with Buck. Im not sure how Travis Best is getting such a bad rap here. If not for those teams being veteran team-oriented there very well couldve been a not-so-little pg controversy. Hes a bit in the mold of Tj, but about a thousand times better. On both ends.

MagicRat
01-15-2010, 10:39 AM
Peck mentioned that the list was some of the Pacers starting point guards, so my rankings are based on "as a starter". When Jackson was traded to Denver, Travis started and I didn't much care for him in that role. Apparently nobody else did either because they got Jackson back after about 50 games.

I'd put Travis at the top of my back up point guard list, though.

Unclebuck
01-15-2010, 11:13 AM
Peck mentioned that the list was some of the Pacers starting point guards, so my rankings are based on "as a starter". When Jackson was traded to Denver, Travis started and I didn't much care for him in that role. Apparently nobody else did either because they got Jackson back after about 50 games.

I'd put Travis at the top of my back up point guard list, though.

True - he didn't play well, he was a second year player playing under Larry Brown as a for a team that had injuries and struggled in brown's last season. Travis was not ready to be the point guard on a team that was expected to contend for a championshiop

Pacergeek
01-15-2010, 11:17 AM
1. Mark Jackson- knew how to run a team. Should be in the HOF with his assist numbers.

2. Jamaal Tinsley- when healthy and focused was a solid PG for the Pacers. Similar to Jackson in that he knew when to get certain players the ball.

3. Travis Best- don't care what anyone says here, Best provided great scoring off the bench. Not really effective as a starter, but was the perfect PG to contribute off the bench. How can anybody forget the shot he made in the 2000 first round game 5 playoffs against the Bucks? Saved the season.

4. Vern Fleming- great veteran presence from the PG position. Kind of a Jack of all Trades.

5. Haywoode Workman- didn't play that long here, but simply got it done when given an opportunity.

6. Michael Williams- the starting PG here during a few playoff seasons in the early 90's. Solid teammate and an outstanding FT shooter.

7. TJ Ford- scoring PG who can't score. terrible assist numbers as well.

Not included on my list--

Jalen Rose- was never really a PG for the Pacers
Pooh Richardson- was never relevant in a Pacer uniform.
Jarret Jack- One season played should not warrant any sort of ranking here.

BillS
01-15-2010, 11:38 AM
I don't need a new list, Peck read my mind.

The reason I didn't like Travis is that he simply failed to pass when necessary. The games where he contributed defense down the stretch were games we were already ahead. In the few times I remember him being clutch offensively they were often situations where our scoring had already stagnated with him on the floor - had it not happened, his clutch would not have been needed.

I always prayed for Victor Von Frankenstein to put Mark Jackson's brain into Travis Best's body. Now, THERE would have been a point guard.

ChicagoJ
01-15-2010, 07:30 PM
1. Mark Jackson
2. Micheal Williams
3. Oh my god, this list actually stinks after those two.
4. Good Tinsley
5. Workman (wow. ouch. But the results were good in spite of his limitations.)
6. Fleming (Vern was an odd PG with his no-arc jumper and difficult transition from college SG).
7. Jarret Jack
8. Bad Tinsley
9. Watson
10T. Travis Ford
10T. T.J. Best
12. Piece of Pooh.

ChicagoJ
01-15-2010, 07:32 PM
I would use this list for the most part, except moving Vern Fleming up to #3, because Workman would be #4. Fleming could really finish around the rim. He was ummmm, the complete opposite of TJ Ford.

-- Steve --

Well put.

ChicagoJ
01-15-2010, 07:45 PM
He passed like Mark Jackson (in Mark Jackson's Pacers era he only averaged > 8.2 APG once.) and scored especially well, especially since about 1/3 of his points came from the FT line so he wasn't the "black hole" style scoring PG we've seen in recent seasons. Post by ChicagoJ



Are you really suggesting that Michael Williams was as good of a passer as Mark Jackson. Tell me you aren't saying that. Michael's defense ws horrible, that was my biggest problem with him - post by Unclebuck

Peck
01-15-2010, 07:48 PM
Dammit!!!!!

Your right, how did I forget him????

Actually that would change my list quite a bit as I would rank him # 4.

Unclebuck
01-15-2010, 07:52 PM
Are you really suggesting that Michael Williams was as good of a passer as Mark Jackson. Tell me you aren't saying that. Michael's defense ws horrible, that was my biggest problem with him

what did I do, somehow I changed a couple of posts and messed everything up.

Sorry

ChicagoJ
01-15-2010, 09:06 PM
Its a shame for us that the edit and quote buttons are right next door. I've done that too. But not to you. Maybe I should. :D

No... Micheal did not have the passing abilities of Mark Jackson in terms of making difficult passes. But he passed the ball with a high frequency. A couple of important differences... the pace was much faster with Micheal, Reggie and Chuck (and Det) on the court together. And related, Micheal had plenty of weapons to pass the ball to that could score quickly. Jackson put up slightly lesser numbers on a slower-paced team and with a DON'T-PASS-THEM-THE-BALL frontcourt of Derrick and Dale.

But statistically, the Pacers haven't had many/ any PGs put up assists at the rate Micheal did.

As for his defense, I think his defense was average. He got a lot of steals, of course. But he also gambled a lot and put Rik (and Tank) in foul trouble when his gamble created an open lane to the basket for the opposing PGs. He was not good at keeping his man in front of him, but at three steals per game he did something to offset it.

But that team was just bad defensively, period. Reggie wasn't interested in defense at all. Chuck wasn't much better. Rik thought his job was to block every shot and get into quick foul trouble. Tank was showing his age. Really, Dreiling and Micheal were probably our two best defenders. If Bo Hill clobbered those guys over the head with defense, he would have brought them right down to about 28 wins. They could play 0.500 with a potent offense and token defense.

But again, Micheals 8.x APG had a lot to do with the effeciency of that offense.

ChicagoJ
01-15-2010, 09:12 PM
Dammit!!!!!

Your right, how did I forget him????

Actually that would change my list quite a bit as I would rank him # 4.

Behind Tinsley?

As one of the few remaining people that remember Good Tinsley, I don't even agree with that.

ChicagoJ
01-15-2010, 09:17 PM
He passed like Mark Jackson (in Mark Jackson's Pacers era he only averaged > 8.2 APG once.) and scored especially well, especially since about 1/3 of his points came from the FT line so he wasn't the "black hole" style scoring PG we've seen in recent seasons - Post by ChicagoJ



Are you really suggesting that Michael Williams was as good of a passer as Mark Jackson. Tell me you aren't saying that. Michael's defense ws horrible, that was my biggest problem with him - post by Unclebuck

This post originally (a) chided Peck for leaving Micheal off the list (:D) and (b) included Micheal's stats from his one season as the full-time starter:

15ppg/ 8.2 agp/ 2.9 spg (second in the league)/ 3.9 rpg (good for a 6'1" guy)/ led team - including Reggie - in FT%.

UncleBuck will cringe when I say this, but Micheal was second-team all-Defensive that season, too. Just goes to show what a joke the all-defensive teams are since the voters don't understand actual defense as well as the average PD poster so they have to rely on decieving stats.

himikey
01-15-2010, 09:41 PM
If you are ranking by talent, I'd go with Micheal Williams, Mark Jackson, Vern Fleming, Billy Keller, TJ Ford

Surprised no one has mentioned Billy Keller. I've never seen him play, but he has 3 ABA rings. I haven't given up on TJ, he's definitely a better player than he has been for us this year.

I've always had mixed feelings about Micheal Williams. The man can flat-out score, but if you watch some old tapes he gambles constantly on D. Remember when John Bagley dropped 35 on us in the playoffs?

BlueNGold
01-16-2010, 12:47 AM
Mark Jackson - easy
Vern Fleming - he was a rock and the best player for a long while IMO
Haywood Workman - solid as they come
Michael Williams - he was hot one year for the Pacers. Really hot though, so he ranks pretty high.
Jamaal Tinsley - Maybe the most talent...wasted talent too.
Travis Best - under-rated defender and could put up points too. Backup.
Pooh Richardson - I thought he was over-rated coming in. Backup.
Jarrett Jack - tough and fiesty, but reckless. Backup.
Earl Watson - solid, but not spectacular. Backup.
T.J. Ford - over-rated. 3rd string.
Travis Diener - lucky to be in the league. Would make a better wolf-boy in Hollywood.

Jalen Rose is a SF. I know he played PG, but I really don't know how to rate him.

Trophy
01-16-2010, 12:55 AM
Overall, I agree.

A.J. will soon be on that list if he continues to play like he has.

kellogg
01-16-2010, 01:16 AM
What about Don Buse...or Sarunas?

MLB007
01-16-2010, 11:41 PM
This is pretty simple here is a list of some of our starting point guards over the past few seasons. List them in order. You can either list them as best to worst or you can list them as your favorite to least favorite. I am listing them from their time with the team and it is not a listing of the way I would rank them.

Vern Fleming
Pooh Richardson
Haywood Workman
Mark Jackson
Travis Best
Jalen Rose (yes he played part of the 00/01 season as the p.g.)
Jamaal Tinsley
Jarett Jack
T.J. Ford
Earl Watson

I debated putting Jalen in there because he did not play the entire season but I went ahead anyway.


Jalen was a HORRIBLE pg. Loved Vern. Mark Jackson was the best of the bunch.

dlewyus
01-17-2010, 10:44 AM
Other than Mark Jackson, this is a real unimpressive list.

And that is an understatement.

BillS
01-17-2010, 03:27 PM
What about Don Buse...or Sarunas?

You say those two names in the same sentence? Go wash your mouth out with soap!

ChicagoJ
01-18-2010, 12:26 PM
What about Don Buse...or Sarunas?

He did say "recent" and "starting".

(Although Vern, Micheal and Pooh aren't exactly "recent". And Workman, Best, Watson and Jack were primarily backup PGs that started due to injuries or demotion of the perceived starter and then became - or are going to become, in Watson's case - backups again.)

Bball
01-18-2010, 12:42 PM
If you're ranking on potential then I could see Tinsley fairly high... but if you're rating on body of work then I don't see how Tinsley can be ranked all that high. You can't separate Good Tinsley and Bad Tinsley. They are the true definition of a combo guard!

Shade
01-18-2010, 12:45 PM
...Tim Hardaway?

McKeyFan
01-18-2010, 01:43 PM
Didn't know the first three point guards listed. Of the rest:

Mark Jackson
Good Tinsley
Earl Watson
Jarett Jack
Travis Best
AJ Price
Jalen Rose
Bad Tinsley
T.J. Ford

Naptown_Seth
01-18-2010, 08:56 PM
Broken into groups too

Mark Jackson

Jamaal Tinsley (good version only, especially 03-04)
Michael Williams (whoops, Peck F'd up)

Haywood Workman (healthy version obviously)
Vern Fleming
Kenny Anderson (whoops again)

Jarett Jack
Earl Watson
Travis Best

Jalen Rose (as a PG only)
T.J. Ford
Pooh Richardson
Beetlejuice (seriously, how the heck is AJ already forgotten by Peck)
Saras
Tinsley (bad)
Hardaway (meh)


Please note, I didn't read any of the thread till after writing his up, so including Michael was my first thought, and of course defining Tinsley as two players. Obviously a lot of us think the same things without talking each other into it.

That bottom group - that's the group that if that's my starting PG I desperately need to find another PG.

BlueNGold
01-18-2010, 10:02 PM
Kevin Ollie was starting less than a decade ago methinks.

Eddie Gill started for awhile during the brawl year...if I'm not mistaken.

Jamison Brewer has been starting for years....in Europe, the NBDL and Brazil.

Erick Strickland and Tyus Edney are starting too....I think at the grill each morning at Mickey D's...;<)