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View Full Version : Brian Windhorst (Cavs' beat writer). Interesting comments about the Pacers



JB24
01-14-2010, 02:12 PM
In yesterday's podcast (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/brian_windhorst_talks_cavalier_14.html) at around the 12:45 mark, he says that the word around the league is that the Pacers are asking for some ridiculous offers. Says that when the Cavs enquired about Murphy, they wanted a "laughable" return that included cap relief, prospects and MULTIPLE picks.

sportfireman
01-14-2010, 02:20 PM
don't f:censored:ing blow this Larry

Mr. Sobchak
01-14-2010, 02:21 PM
In yesterday's podcast (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/brian_windhorst_talks_cavalier_14.html) at around the 12:45 mark, he says that the word around the league is that the Pacers are asking for some ridiculous offers. Says that when the Cavs enquired about Murphy, they wanted a "laughable" return that included cap relief, prospects and MULTIPLE picks.

:50cent:


:picard:

Hicks
01-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Couldn't it be "we want 40, they'll want to give us 30 or less, so we'll start by asking for 50 or more"?

vnzla81
01-14-2010, 02:24 PM
the guy is saying that the pacers are asking for multiple draft pick and prospect for Murphy, maybe more.

Peck
01-14-2010, 02:25 PM
It never hurts to ask, I guess.

Hell Duke Dynamite makes a killing by this very thing so sometimes it works.:shrug:

Mr. Sobchak
01-14-2010, 02:27 PM
Couldn't it be "we want 40, they'll want to give us 30 or less, so we'll start by asking for 50 or more"?

We can only hope...

Pacersfan46
01-14-2010, 02:33 PM
Couldn't it be "we want 40, they'll want to give us 30 or less, so we'll start by asking for 50 or more"?

Possible, but that's a dangerous way to negotiate. By doing so you can insult the other person (does Bird really think I'm this stupid??) and either nix a deal completely, or make them less inclined to give you what you want. As much as it's business, you're dealing with personalities too.

-- Steve --

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 02:35 PM
It never hurts to ask, I guess.

Hell Duke Dynamite makes a killing by this very thing so sometimes it works.:shrug:
What the hell did I do? :rolleyes:

sportfireman
01-14-2010, 02:36 PM
:laugh:
What the hell did I do? :rolleyes:

Lance George
01-14-2010, 03:08 PM
Between this and the rumors that we demanded Bynum and Odom for J.O., it makes you think...

Anthem
01-14-2010, 03:08 PM
This is what I've been afraid of the entire time, and not just with Murphy. I expect the exact same thing happened with TJ.

vnzla81
01-14-2010, 03:13 PM
This is what I've been afraid of the entire time, and not just with Murphy. I expect the exact same thing happened with TJ.

with TJ, Tinsley, Foster, Dunleavy and even JO

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 03:19 PM
In yesterday's podcast (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/brian_windhorst_talks_cavalier_14.html) at around the 12:45 mark, he says that the word around the league is that the Pacers are asking for some ridiculous offers. Says that when the Cavs enquired about Murphy, they wanted a "laughable" return that included cap relief, prospects and MULTIPLE picks.

Didnt JO have a simmialr complaint when Bird was trying to move him? I believe this to be true because I remember when it was reported that Bird wanted BOTH Bynum and Odom for JO


Bird , for the love of Go please stop and be reasonable

Murphy and Foster deserve to be traded to a contender NOW!!

They have ben good guys and especially Foster have been a great example for the city of Indianapolis and the Pacers

Since86
01-14-2010, 03:23 PM
Umm...You don't trade them to a contender just because they are good guys.

You trade them to the team that gives you the best in return. Period.

CableKC
01-14-2010, 03:32 PM
I want to maximize what little trading assets that we have and don't want to undervalue Murphy's trade value....but I also recognize that we need to move him for an Expiring Contract in the next month and that the Cavs have other suitors for Big Zs Expiring contract. IMHO...the only real advantage that the Pacers have over the Wizards is that Murphy's contract is way more reasonable then Jamison's contract that has an extra year on it and is owed about $17 mil more. Asking for less in return is the only way that we can IMHO make a better offer.

As mentioned in another thread........I do not want to lose out on trading Murphy to the Cavs over asking for too much in return.

Speed
01-14-2010, 03:33 PM
You don't start out negotiating with your best offer, plus you have more than a month to work this out.

ALSO, it doesn't have to be done by Feb., if you don't get what you want, you can wait. Ya, you risk a player getting hurt or declining in play, but if that doesn't happen, you have expiring contracts too.

I'm not saying you shouldn't move Murph now, cuz his trade value is better than I ever thought it would get to, plus you have to make a move to get under the cap.

These GM shouldn't get insulted, I'd guess everyone of them have done the same thing, where it would get insulting if a guy wouldn't negotiate or wouldn't follow through on a proposal. Bird's shown he'll do a deal, they all know that. If a GM won't do a deal cuz they don't like Bird then that's a sad statement on them, this isn't trading lunches in 3rd grade, it's trying to make your team better. Do you think a GM won't do a deal to help his job/franchise because Larry is asking for alot back in a trade, I doubt it.

Knee jerk/take what you can get type trades never work.

----------------

I'm just saying three things.



Start negotiating by asking for more than you'd take (like he is doing).

Take your time-you have a month

If NOTHING happens-its not the end of the world, you still have those assets.

CableKC
01-14-2010, 03:43 PM
You don't start out negotiating with your best offer, plus you have more than a month to work this out.

ALSO, it doesn't have to be done by Feb., if you don't get what you want, you can wait. Ya, you risk a player getting hurt or declining in play, but if that doesn't happen, you have expiring contracts too.

I'm not saying you shouldn't move Murph now, cuz his trade value is better than I ever thought it would get to, plus you have to make a move to get under the cap.

I'm just saying three things.

Start negotiating by asking for more than you'd take (like he is doing).

Take your time-you have a month

If NOTHING happens-its not the end of the world, you still have those assets.
You are right...technically, we don't have to move anybody before this trade deadline....but I think it's in our best interest that we do. It is far more beneficial to get out from under the 2010-2011 LT before going into the season then it is to get out from under it before the 2010-2011 Trade Deadline.

I do not want to be in the same position as the Jazz were in a month ago where they had to include sweetner just to send a Contract to a Team that could send back no Salary. On top of that....we are already over the likely 2010-2011 LT at least by $6-7 mil....if we wait until the 2010-2011 Season......even if we take back a better Player...we will likely be taking back a comprable contract....thus making it harder to avoid the LT.

Cherokee
01-14-2010, 03:43 PM
None of the contenders have their backs against the wall right now. By starting high, Bird gives himself some wiggle room and, as the trade deadline starts to near and potential trading partner's chances of securing a better playoff position narrows, Bird may find himself sitting in the catbird's seat -- pardon the pathetic pun.

Trophy
01-14-2010, 03:47 PM
This was a pretty informative podcast. I'm curious to hear what Larry Bird wants for Troy.

BornReady
01-14-2010, 03:54 PM
This was a pretty informative podcast. I'm curious to hear what Larry Bird wants for Troy.

maybe we can figure it out? cap relief, prospects, picks.

cap relief may consist of...shaq and z?
prospects...boobie, hickson, danny green
picks...who knows.

some combination of these things maybe. best we can do is guess i suppose, tho the whole z for troy thing is looking to be more of a reality than just rumors.

NapTonius Monk
01-14-2010, 03:54 PM
In yesterday's podcast (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/brian_windhorst_talks_cavalier_14.html) at around the 12:45 mark, he says that the word around the league is that the Pacers are asking for some ridiculous offers. Says that when the Cavs enquired about Murphy, they wanted a "laughable" return that included cap relief, prospects and MULTIPLE picks.

:crazy: :disturbed :shakehead Man, are we overvaluing Troy or what?

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 04:00 PM
You don't start out negotiating with your best offer, plus you have more than a month to work this out.

ALSO, it doesn't have to be done by Feb., if you don't get what you want, you can wait. Ya, you risk a player getting hurt or declining in play, but if that doesn't happen, you have expiring contracts too.

I'm not saying you shouldn't move Murph now, cuz his trade value is better than I ever thought it would get to, plus you have to make a move to get under the cap.

These GM shouldn't get insulted, I'd guess everyone of them have done the same thing, where it would get insulting if a guy wouldn't negotiate or wouldn't follow through on a proposal. Bird's shown he'll do a deal, they all know that. If a GM won't do a deal cuz they don't like Bird then that's a sad statement on them, this isn't trading lunches in 3rd grade, it's trying to make your team better. Do you think a GM won't do a deal to help his job/franchise because Larry is asking for alot back in a trade, I doubt it.

Knee jerk/take what you can get type trades never work.

----------------

I'm just saying three things.



Start negotiating by asking for more than you'd take (like he is doing).

Take your time-you have a month

If NOTHING happens-its not the end of the world, you still have those assets.



All that is true but if you are way of abse in our demmands it wont matter how much time elapses

you would still be way off base

I hope thats not the case though

Natston
01-14-2010, 04:21 PM
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ChicagoJ
01-14-2010, 04:26 PM
Possible, but that's a dangerous way to negotiate. By doing so you can insult the other person (does Bird really think I'm this stupid??) and either nix a deal completely, or make them less inclined to give you what you want. As much as it's business, you're dealing with personalities too.

-- Steve --

Or just focus negotiating with someone that starts with a more reasonable position, using the idea that if someone starts with a reasonable position you're more likely to actually reach an agreement.

Value for everything is within a reasonable range. If the other party doesn't start from inside those boundaries, why bother?

I could offer the Porsche dealer $2500 for that new 911. Does that mean he/ she needs to counter-offer with $180k so that we can end up at $90k where we both know we belong?

docpaul
01-14-2010, 04:27 PM
:crazy: :disturbed :shakehead Man, are we overvaluing Troy or what?

No, silly... they are simply jockeying for the best value they can for Murph.

If you were trying to sell your car, and wanted 5k for it, would you offer that as the sale price, or would you perhaps list it at 7.5k knowing that people will expect to haggle you down? :)

PR07
01-14-2010, 04:28 PM
What "prospects" do the Cavs have? Bird should ask for Big Z (and buy-out), Hickson, and the Cavs' first.

Zelmo Beatty
01-14-2010, 04:38 PM
I have no problem with the Pacers starting with somewhat,
unreasonable demand in exchange for Murphy. But I do question
Bird's ability to finesse his way through the process succesfully.

esabyrn333
01-14-2010, 04:41 PM
What "prospects" do the Cavs have? Bird should ask for Big Z (and buy-out), Hickson, and the Cavs' first.


That was what I was thinking. reading some of the Cavs fans posts after the pod cast was laughable. Sign and trade Wally and a 2nd round pick thats laughable.

Personally I'm not that intrested in hickson but Z and a 1st is about spot on for Murphy maybe a second rounder thrown in.

Some people seem to think its the Pacers job to give them what they want for nothing.

After reading through have of those replies I say we keep Murphy, and let them lose in the Play offs agian and hopefully Lebron signs with the Knicks in the off season.

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 04:42 PM
Umm...You don't trade them to a contender just because they are good guys.

You trade them to the team that gives you the best in return. Period.

No doubt!

I just think , if possible, send them to a contender for being good soldiers

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 04:43 PM
That was what I was thinking. reading some of the Cavs fans posts after the pod cast was laughable. Sign and trade Wally and a 2nd round pick thats laughable.

Personally I'm not that intrested in hickson but Z and a 1st is about spot on for Murphy maybe a second rounder thrown in.

Some people seem to think its the Pacers job to give them what they want for nothing.

After reading through have of those replies I say we keep Murphy, and let them lose in the Play offs agian and hopefully Lebron signs with the Knicks in the off season.

Exactly!!

They think that because were a smaller market, struggling with fan support, and a poor record they can just abuse us in a trade

No fire sale here boys!! :censored::censored:

d_c
01-14-2010, 04:44 PM
I listened to that and according to the writer, sounds like the Cavs are willing to give the Pacers cap relief next season, but nothing in addition to that. So they're willing to give either Z or a re-signed Wally Szberiack (to a contract with only this year guaranteed) plus filler for Murphy.

If push comes to shove, I'm guessing the Pacers would do that in the last second. At the moment they are asking for more in the hopes of getting a better offer.

But I'm guessing the Simons would prefer to not have to pay Murphy $12M next season. They would avoid any possibility of the luxury tax and it'd free up payroll options to use the MLE if they wanted to.

RWB
01-14-2010, 04:48 PM
If we're talking picks you've got to remember a 1st rounder from the Cavs is going to be WAY down the list in the very late 20s to near 2nd round territory. Multiple does not seem unreasonable to me.

owl
01-14-2010, 04:49 PM
Umm...You don't trade them to a contender just because they are good guys.

You trade them to the team that gives you the best in return. Period.


I am with you on this. Supposedly there are several teams that are interested in
Murphy. I believe many teams find Murphy and his 3 point shooting and rebounding and
short contract to be very appealing. So cap relief, a 1st and a player may be a bit much
but cap relief and a pick sure is not.

special ed
01-14-2010, 04:49 PM
Look, if they (and some of you other posters) want Z, consider me off the pacers fan wagon.
You all want to add another big veteran slug to really handicap Hibbert's development? Do NOT give OB another vet that this forum will constantly dog.
Actually we should be proud of Bird for starting out high. Of course there are gonna be "leaks" that aim to make Bird look like a fool, but that would be the nature of the business. Stick to your beliefs, Larry.

d_c
01-14-2010, 04:49 PM
That was what I was thinking. reading some of the Cavs fans posts after the pod cast was laughable. Sign and trade Wally and a 2nd round pick thats laughable.

The Cavs are offering the Pacers relief from having to pay Murphy $12M next season, and the possible luxury tax implications that come with it. If you're the Simons, you'd probably be happy to have an instant $12M in relief. Maybe Bird wouldn't be happy with just that, but the ownership probably would be.

And it's not like Troy Murphy is the only guy on the market available for the Cavs.

judicata
01-14-2010, 04:51 PM
Bird should take his time. Murphy has been playing lights out lately. He might be the bane of the Pacers and this board, but he might also be the panacea for a contender. If the Jamison stays put, Bird should be able to get quite the package for Troy.

owl
01-14-2010, 04:54 PM
The other issue with the Cavs is you are trading WITHIN your division. Plus it enables them
more likely to keep Lebron and maybe enough for them to get a championship. You
had better get something in return for that. It would be better for the Pacers if Lebron went to NY or Miami.

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 04:57 PM
The other issue with the Cavs is you are trading WITHIN your division. Plus it enables them
more likely to keep Lebron and maybe enough for them to get a championship. You
had better get something in return for that. It would be better for the Pacers if Lebron went to NY or Miami.

Yeah, but if you look at NY, and if LeBron goes there, I mean the Knicks have put all their eggs in that basket. What kind of a supporting cast will he have? Wouldn't he just basically be starting over in NY?

I don't think with what they have or will likely have next season will be enough to win a ton of games. Sure, they'll make a splash in the playoffs, but they won't be a championship team.

Miami is a different story.

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Look, if they (and some of you other posters) want Z, consider me off the pacers fan wagon.
You all want to add another big veteran slug to really handicap Hibbert's development? Do NOT give OB another vet that this forum will constantly dog.
Actually we should be proud of Bird for starting out high. Of course there are gonna be "leaks" that aim to make Bird look like a fool, but that would be the nature of the business. Stick to your beliefs, Larry.
I don't think we'd be keeping Z if we got him. Buyout is all I've heard. Even if we did his contract is up. Just dust yourself off a little bit and pick up the pieces.

pwee31
01-14-2010, 04:59 PM
The trade deadline is a little more then a month away, I'm personally hoping Murphy goes on a tear to raise his value, b/c I believe he has raised it some already.

I don't mind Bird overvaluing Murphy for the time being. We've heard the Cavs are most likely offering Z/Hickson. We all know that the Cavs want Z back, and so the Pacers would in essence be trading Murphy for Hickson and cap room..

That sounds good to a lot of us, but think about that, you're trading away a double double guy, coming off a career year last year for a decent 2nd year prospect, and cap room.

I understand where Bird is coming from, you hope he's not too crazy in his demands, but you have to want a little more and I believe can we can demand more

docpaul
01-14-2010, 05:01 PM
It feels good to be on the right side of negotiations for a change. We have a player that others want, and isn't a part of our team's long term future.

This is precisely the moment fans and team leadership have been waiting for, for 2+ years.

This is the moment where Bird and Morway earn their paychecks.

Z, Hickson, and a first round draft pick. With the money to finish buying Z out. Get it done.

Otherwise, you're going to lose LeBron. ;)

Trophy
01-14-2010, 05:05 PM
This whole obsession is getting way too old and quite frankly it's getting a bit boring if you ask me.

These articles and discussions aren't changing. It's the same old crap.

Get TJ off the team first. He doesn't even play. 8 million dollars on the bench.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2010, 05:05 PM
Does anyone know for sure if Bird is solely responsibile for the trades with Portland and Toronto or was it Dave M.?

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 05:07 PM
The trade deadline is a little more then a month away, I'm personally hoping Murphy goes on a tear to raise his value, b/c I believe he has raised it some already.

I don't mind Bird overvaluing Murphy for the time being. We've heard the Cavs are most likely offering Z/Hickson. We all know that the Cavs want Z back, and so the Pacers would in essence be trading Murphy for Hickson and cap room..

That sounds good to a lot of us, but think about that, you're trading away a double double guy, coming off a career year last year for a decent 2nd year prospect, and cap room.
I understand where Bird is coming from, you hope he's not too crazy in his demands, but you have to want a little more and I believe can we can demand more

Not to split hairs but I think Hickson was a first round pick.

Also rumor is LeBron is real tight with Hickson so the CAvs probably want to hold on to him to please "The King" :rolleyes:

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 05:08 PM
Does anyone know for sure if Bird is solely responsibile for the trades with Portland and Toronto or was it Dave M.?

I dont think any of us no for certain, but Im sure David M was at least involved, if not the main component in talks

d_c
01-14-2010, 05:11 PM
This whole obsession is getting way too old and quite frankly it's getting a bit boring if you ask me.

These articles and discussions aren't changing. It's the same old crap.

Get TJ off the team first. He doesn't even play. 8 million dollars on the bench.

LOL.

The rumor is very real. I think at the moment of the deadline, if the only offer the Pacers get is an expiring contract for Murphy (and nothing else), the Pacers will take it. And they'll take it to save $12M plus any possible luxury tax implications that come with not trading him.

TJ Ford isn't in any of these discussions because nobody wants him. People around the league are at least willing to take on Murphy.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2010, 05:13 PM
Not to split hairs but I think Hickson was a first round pick.

Also rumor is LeBron is real tight with Hickson so the CAvs probably want to hold on to him to please "The King" :rolleyes:



You are right on both accounts. Hickson was a 19 pick. When EF Hutton (King James) speaks, everyone listens.

cdash
01-14-2010, 05:15 PM
Windhorst also tweeted that Shaq and Delonte West are being held out of the game tonight, even though both are healthy and were at shootaround today...

Trophy
01-14-2010, 05:17 PM
LOL.

The rumor is very real. I think at the moment of the deadline, if the only offer the Pacers get is an expiring contract for Murphy (and nothing else), the Pacers will take it. And they'll take it to save $12M plus any possible luxury tax implications that come with not trading him.

TJ Ford isn't in any of these discussions because nobody wants him. People around the league are at least willing to take on Murphy.

Of course it's real, but all of the articles say the same things. Anything that would be different was if an article had actually stated that he was traded. Yes we know Cleveland wants Troy.

What I'm saying is that people are making it seem like it's the end of the world with Troy on the Pacers.

Lance George
01-14-2010, 05:18 PM
Not to split hairs but I think Hickson was a first round pick.

Also rumor is LeBron is real tight with Hickson so the CAvs probably want to hold on to him to please "The King" :rolleyes:

He said second year, not second round. :cool:

owl
01-14-2010, 05:19 PM
LOL.

The rumor is very real. I think at the moment of the deadline, if the only offer the Pacers get is an expiring contract for Murphy (and nothing else), the Pacers will take it. And they'll take it to save $12M plus any possible luxury tax implications that come with not trading him.

TJ Ford isn't in any of these discussions because nobody wants him. People around the league are at least willing to take on Murphy.

What the team does with Murphy could be very revealing about the future of this team in Indiana period. If all they get is cap relief that would suggest desparation.
Murphy would have much greater value next year at the deadline or even before.

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 05:20 PM
You are right on both accounts. Hickson was a 19 pick. When EF Hutton (King James) speaks, everyone listens.

Thanks man

I hate those "ive been catered to my whole life so bow down" atheletes

I had an opportunity to meet and work with John Starks (showing my age here :) and also Patrick Ewing

John Starks is the most down to earth athlete I have ever met (not that I met a lot)

Ewing was a big fat prick :(

d_c
01-14-2010, 05:20 PM
What I'm saying is that people are making it seem like it's the end of the world with Troy on the Pacers.

Well, if the Pacers decide they simply don't want to pay Troy $12M and they can find someone else who's willing to do it, then they're right.

Jon Theodore
01-14-2010, 05:37 PM
This whole obsession is getting way too old and quite frankly it's getting a bit boring if you ask me.

These articles and discussions aren't changing. It's the same old crap.

Get TJ off the team first. He doesn't even play. 8 million dollars on the bench.

There is a reason TJ is not playing and is still on our team. NOBODY in the league wants him. If he were making 2-3 million a year, maybe somebody would want him. This is Tinsley 2.0...we will be seeing buyout talks soon. The pacers have obviously tried to trade TJ and realized there are NO TAKERS that is why he is now on the bench.

He is obviously not a part of our future, no team wants to have him, so the obvious solution is to play your young PG.

BobbyMac
01-14-2010, 05:39 PM
:crazy: :disturbed :shakehead Man, are we overvaluing Troy or what?

Probably not, if we are wanting multiple picks they are probably 2nd rounders or a 1st and a 2nd. We have no reason to give Troy away, especially since Tyler is not playing well right now. We should only make a trade that helps us!

CableKC
01-14-2010, 06:14 PM
LOL.

The rumor is very real. I think at the moment of the deadline, if the only offer the Pacers get is an expiring contract for Murphy (and nothing else), the Pacers will take it. And they'll take it to save $12M plus any possible luxury tax implications that come with not trading him.

TJ Ford isn't in any of these discussions because nobody wants him. People around the league are at least willing to take on Murphy.
I don't get why you, me and count55 ( and a few others here..don't remember who ) are the only ones that understand this.

Doing what would essentially become a Salary Dump for Murphy ( despite his inspired play of late ) isn't cuz we need to make a change or anything....it's purely for financial reasons and a simple part of business.

IMHO.....if Murphy isn't traded before the February Trade Deadline.......I honestly believe that Foster will be. Moving Murphy would not only benefit the Team by getting under the 2010-2011 Luxury Tax.....but lessens the chance that Foster would be moved. Simply put....there appears to only be interest in Foster and Murphy from other Teams and IMHO, Foster is the easier of the 2 to move. If the Pacers can get some deal that would involve BigZ+$$$ for Murphy....then they should take it and run. At a minimum......I'd suspect that TPTB would want to move either of them for SalaryCap Relief....but the obvious preference would be to move Murphy due to his larger contract.

Anthem
01-14-2010, 06:20 PM
There is a reason TJ is not playing and is still on our team. NOBODY in the league wants him.
Technically, nobody wants to give up what we're asking for him.

I'm curious about what exactly that was.

judicata
01-14-2010, 06:21 PM
I don't get why you, me and count55 ( and a few others here..don't remember who ) are the only ones that understand this.

Doing what would essentially become a Salary Dump for Murphy ( despite his inspired play of late ) isn't cuz we need to make a change or anything....it's purely for financial reasons and a simple part of business.

IMHO.....if Murphy isn't traded before the February Trade Deadline.......I honestly believe that Foster will be. Moving Murphy would not only benefit the Team by getting under the 2010-2011 Luxury Tax.....but lessens the chance that Foster would be moved. Simply put....there appears to only be interest in Foster and Murphy from other Teams and IMHO, Foster is the easier of the 2 to move. If the Pacers can get some deal that would involve BigZ+$$$ for Murphy....then they should take it and run. At a minimum......I'd suspect that TPTB would want to move either of them for SalaryCap Relief....but the obvious preference would be to move Murphy due to his larger contract.

This is all true, but you don't sell you things based on what they are worth to you. You sell them for what they are worth to other people. And Murphy is worth more than just Z's expiring to the Cavs.

Yes, moving Troy saves us a lot of money and we maybe keep Foster. But to the Cavs, he might be the final piece that puts them over the top come the playoffs. They are going to have to cough up more than a little cap relief for something like that.

Lance George
01-14-2010, 06:26 PM
I don't get why you, me and count55 ( and a few others here..don't remember who ) are the only ones that understand this.

According to Chad Ford, multiple teams are after Murphy. If that's the case, then the Pacers can demand more than just expiring contract(s). The Cavs can offer Z all they want, but if a team offers expiring and something of long-term value (pick, prospect), well then Cleveland's just S.O.L.


2. Troy Murphy, F, Pacers
The Pacers look as though they're moving toward a youth movement as they continue to build around Danny Granger. With a number of contending teams interested in Murphy, the Pacers seem to be in the right place to make a deal. While Murphy may be overpaid, there are few bigs in the league that can rebound and spread the floor the way he can. With just one more year left on his contract, Murphy could be the missing piece for a team trying to compete for a title.

The Cavs seem to have the most interest, though several other teams have also told me they'll make a run at him. At the very least, the Pacers should be able to deal Murphy for expiring contracts and one asset (either a draft pick or a young prospect).

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 07:00 PM
He said second year, not second round. :cool:

touche'

point taken :)

CableKC
01-14-2010, 07:00 PM
What the team does with Murphy could be very revealing about the future of this team in Indiana period. If all they get is cap relief that would suggest desparation.
Murphy would have much greater value next year at the deadline or even before.
Desperation? How would it be considered desperation?

Unless you are suggesting that they are desperate to avoid paying the LT in 2010-2011....then you're right...otherwise, IMHO...you're wrong. For a Small Market Team that has an Owner that is losing $$$$....saving $$$ in the long Term by avoiding paying the LT is a good and smart thing to do.

For all those that suggest that the Expiring Contract are worth something next season.....please give me some trade scenario that would involve any of the Big 4. Before you suggest some trade......keep in mind the following:

1 ) The Owners would likely want to avoid paying the 2010-2011 Luxury Tax
2 ) Avoid including Sweetners ( $$$, Draft Picks, prospects ) in any trade scenario.
3 ) Avoid taking back any bad contracts that would adversely affect whatever Plans that the FO has for the 2011-2012 Offseason or get us back to the same Financial / SalaryCap situation that we are in now with the Big 4 Contracts.
4 ) Avoid taking back any Players that do not fit into what the Pacers FO considers the future core of Players.

In any other season, I'd agree that Expiring Contracts would have a lot of value. But in the 2010-2011 season.....many Teams are looking to have as much CapSpace as they want so that they can go shopping in the 2010-2011 FA Market. That eliminates the majority of the Teams that we could deal with that could take on Salary without sending any back. This doesn't even take into account what ( if any ) sweetners that Teams that are under the Cap would ask for just to send the Pacers a Trade Exception. That would leave Teams that are over the SalaryCap and can't go shopping in the FA Market. Since they will likely be in a similiar SalaryCap situation as us....that means that we can only take back 125% of what we send out. Since we will likely be about $6-7 mil over the LT in 2010-2011.....it's unlikely that we'd be able to make any deal that would get us under the LT Threshold.

IMHO....I think that it is risky to enter any season with a Payroll that is over the likely Luxury Tax. Doing so would put the Team in a position to make moves that would not likely prefer to make just to avoid paying the Luxury Tax. If I believed that Murphy was an integral part of the future of this Team and thought that we couldn't make the Playoffs without him, then I'd have concerns about doing a Salary Dump for him. Since it's beginning to look like we are more likely bound for the Lottery then the Playoffs and Murphy won't likely be part of the future core of Players.....I'd be looking to move him for the best deal that I can get while meeting the above criterias. Doing a Salary Dump now for Murphy isn't optimal....but it is far more preferable to do it now then later.

CableKC
01-14-2010, 07:04 PM
This is all true, but you don't sell you things based on what they are worth to you. You sell them for what they are worth to other people. And Murphy is worth more than just Z's expiring to the Cavs.

Yes, moving Troy saves us a lot of money and we maybe keep Foster. But to the Cavs, he might be the final piece that puts them over the top come the playoffs. They are going to have to cough up more than a little cap relief for something like that.
Why is Murphy that only piece that could get the Cavs over the hump? Why can't that Player be Jamison?

I get what you're saying.....but if the Cavs were only interested in Murphy and no one else....I'd be more comfortable that we could get more for Murphy.....at this point with Jamison in the mix.....I'm not so sure.

CableKC
01-14-2010, 07:08 PM
According to Chad Ford, multiple teams are after Murphy. If that's the case, then the Pacers can demand more than just expiring contract(s). The Cavs can offer Z all they want, but if a team offers expiring and something of long-term value (pick, prospect), well then Cleveland's just S.O.L.
I totally agree here.....I'd be interested in what other Teams are interested in Murphy and what they are offering. But it's not like the Cavs are S.O.L if Bird just leaves the negotiating Table.....the Cavs can easily go to the Wizards to get Jamison or even the Hornets to get West. Getting the most out of a trade is important....but I think that it is as important ( if not more ) for the Owners to avoid paying the LT next season.

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 07:09 PM
Why is Murphy that only piece that could get the Cavs over the hump? Why can't that Player be Jamison?

I get what you're saying.....but if the Cavs were only interested in Murphy and no one else....I'd be more comfortable that we could get more for Murphy.....at this point with Jamison in the mix.....I'm not so sure.

From what I have heard Jamison has been their first choice,

However with Arenas out I doubt they will trade him so Murphy becomes option #2

judicata
01-14-2010, 07:09 PM
Why is Murphy that only piece that could get the Cavs over the hump? Why can't that Player be Jamison?

I get what you're saying.....but if the Cavs were only interested in Murphy and no one else....I'd be more comfortable that we could get more for Murphy.....at this point with Jamison in the mix.....I'm not so sure.

From what I understand, they're going after Jamison first irrespective of Murphy. Murphy is a second option. Jamison, of course, is much more expensive, which means there is a lot of grey between the costs of the two players. Bird's job is to find where the inflection point is, after considering the costs and benefits of the two players to the Cavs.

Plus, Murphy is apparently coveted by multiple teams, in which case we certainly want to start high.

Finally, remember that we are not desperate here. Murphy's value is good for his skills now, but next year it will be great for its expiration. There are other moves to make that can help with the cap, so the Pacers should only move Troy if they get something worthwhile. Remember, he is playing great right now, and despite his defensive woes, has been a net positive for this team over the past few weeks.

We have all the time in the world, really.

90'sNBARocked
01-14-2010, 07:10 PM
I totally agree here.....I'd be interested in what other Teams are interested in Murphy and what they are offering. But it's not like the Cavs are S.O.L if Bird just leaves the negotiating Table.....the Cavs can easily go to the Wizards to get Jamison or even the Hornets to get West. Getting the most out of a trade is important....but I think that it is as important ( if not more ) for the Owners to avoid paying the LT next season.

I belive that Denver, Portland, are also interested along with potentially the Spurs

skyfire
01-14-2010, 08:05 PM
With Murphy the 2nd choice behind Jamison, it makes sense for Bird to wait and see what happens. If the Cavs swing a deal for Jamison then it was moot anyway, if another team deals for Jamison then Murphy's value increases.

If the Pacers got say Z and a 2012 and 2014 1st rounder from the cavs, they are likely to be late 1st round picks, as long as LeBron doesn't change teams. If he did go elsewhere then the Cavs would suddenly go from being contenders to mediocre and those picks would become more valuable.

tadscout
01-14-2010, 08:21 PM
I belive that Denver, Portland, are also interested along with potentially the Spurs

Isn't that the list for Foster :hmm:

B/c Denver and Spurs would barely have enough contracts to offer for Foster let alone Murph... unless they find a 3rd team to tango...

Per Ford-

The Nuggets have shown considerable interest in Foster, but they aren't alone. The Blazers, Jazz, Spurs and Suns would all like to get him, too.

CableKC
01-14-2010, 08:32 PM
With Murphy the 2nd choice behind Jamison, it makes sense for Bird to wait and see what happens. If the Cavs swing a deal for Jamison then it was moot anyway, if another team deals for Jamison then Murphy's value increases.

If the Pacers got say Z and a 2012 and 2014 1st rounder from the cavs, they are likely to be late 1st round picks, as long as LeBron doesn't change teams. If he did go elsewhere then the Cavs would suddenly go from being contenders to mediocre and those picks would become more valuable.
I could be wrong....but I think that the Wizards are looking to shed Salary if they move Jamison. There aren't that many Teams that would be willing to take Jamison on. I'd guess, outside of the Cavs.....the only other option that I can think of that would have the Expiring Contract that could take on Jamison is the Rockets with TMac and Mavs with Dampier.

Another thing.....a late 1st rounder....IMHO....isn't a simple throw-in for the very reasons that you mention. The Cavs can go from a Contender to a mediocre Team if Lebron decides to go elsewhere and that 1st round pick becomes very valuable.

Will Galen
01-14-2010, 09:07 PM
I think some of you guys are overvaluing Murphy, but I think most are undervaluing him. The way I look at it, Bird will get what he wants or he won't trade Murphy.

No doubt this time next year there will be teams really wanting Murphy, because he could be the missing piece and he will have an expiring contract, so Murphy is only going to grow in value. So there's absolutely no reason to trade him at this years deadline if you don't get what you want.

We don't actually have to be under the lux tax until after next years trade deadline, so there's no hurry at all. None, even though it would be good to get under the tax as soon as possible.

d_c
01-14-2010, 09:11 PM
No doubt this time next year there will be teams really wanting Murphy, because he could be the missing piece and he will have an expiring contract

Murphy is a nice role player and he can add some depth, but I don't think he's anyone's "missing piece". He's not Pau Gasol from 2008 or Rasheed Wallace from 2004; put it that way. Those guys were missing pieces. They actually pushed their teams over a hump they previously couldn't get over.

RandyWrinkles
01-14-2010, 09:17 PM
Yeah, but if you look at NY, and if LeBron goes there, I mean the Knicks have put all their eggs in that basket. What kind of a supporting cast will he have? Wouldn't he just basically be starting over in NY?

I don't think with what they have or will likely have next season will be enough to win a ton of games. Sure, they'll make a splash in the playoffs, but they won't be a championship team.

Miami is a different story.

Miami is not that different of a story. The supporting cast isn't really a valid argument considering Miami will only have 3 players under contract at the beginning of the summer assuming they pick up Chalmers option. Lebron won't choose Miami over NY because of Beasley and Chalmers. Lebron has never had, IMO, that great of supporting cast and he's been to the finals.

As of now, Miami will have more cap room but New York could unload more contracts by then. Both teams will try to get another top free agent to go along with Lebron and I think that will make the difference.

owl
01-14-2010, 09:20 PM
Desperation? How would it be considered desperation?

Unless you are suggesting that they are desperate to avoid paying the LT in 2010-2011....then you're right...otherwise, IMHO...you're wrong. For a Small Market Team that has an Owner that is losing $$$$....saving $$$ in the long Term by avoiding paying the LT is a good and smart thing to do.

For all those that suggest that the Expiring Contract are worth something next season.....please give me some trade scenario that would involve any of the Big 4. Before you suggest some trade......keep in mind the following:

1 ) The Owners would likely want to avoid paying the 2010-2011 Luxury Tax
2 ) Avoid including Sweetners ( $$$, Draft Picks, prospects ) in any trade scenario.
3 ) Avoid taking back any bad contracts that would adversely affect whatever Plans that the FO has for the 2011-2012 Offseason or get us back to the same Financial / SalaryCap situation that we are in now with the Big 4 Contracts.
4 ) Avoid taking back any Players that do not fit into what the Pacers FO considers the future core of Players.

In any other season, I'd agree that Expiring Contracts would have a lot of value. But in the 2010-2011 season.....many Teams are looking to have as much CapSpace as they want so that they can go shopping in the 2010-2011 FA Market. That eliminates the majority of the Teams that we could deal with that could take on Salary without sending any back. This doesn't even take into account what ( if any ) sweetners that Teams that are under the Cap would ask for just to send the Pacers a Trade Exception. That would leave Teams that are over the SalaryCap and can't go shopping in the FA Market. Since they will likely be in a similiar SalaryCap situation as us....that means that we can only take back 125% of what we send out. Since we will likely be about $6-7 mil over the LT in 2010-2011.....it's unlikely that we'd be able to make any deal that would get us under the LT Threshold.

IMHO....I think that it is risky to enter any season with a Payroll that is over the likely Luxury Tax. Doing so would put the Team in a position to make moves that would not likely prefer to make just to avoid paying the Luxury Tax. If I believed that Murphy was an integral part of the future of this Team and thought that we couldn't make the Playoffs without him, then I'd have concerns about doing a Salary Dump for him. Since it's beginning to look like we are more likely bound for the Lottery then the Playoffs and Murphy won't likely be part of the future core of Players.....I'd be looking to move him for the best deal that I can get while meeting the above criterias. Doing a Salary Dump now for Murphy isn't optimal....but it is far more preferable to do it now then later.

I guess I don't understand why this year is different than next year. Is there a new
collective bargaining agreement for next year? What will have changed next year that is in place this year?

Will Galen
01-14-2010, 09:26 PM
I guess I don't understand why this year is different than next year. Is there a new
collective bargaining agreement for next year? What will have changed next year that is in place this year?

Nothing except Murphy will have even more value.

judicata
01-14-2010, 09:27 PM
Murphy is a nice role player and he can add some depth, but I don't think he's anyone's "missing piece". He's not Pau Gasol from 2008 or Rasheed Wallace from 2004; put it that way. Those guys were missing pieces. They actually pushed their teams over a hump they previously couldn't get over.

Well, we don't think so, but there might be a sucker out there. Its not like the Cav's have shown themselves to be brilliant masters of the game of basketball.

pacergod2
01-14-2010, 09:41 PM
Nothing except Murphy will have even more value.

I am sorry Will (and others who think this) but you are mistaken. It's another year for him to come up lame with an injury and give him no trade value other than his contract. We don't need Murphy for WINS right now. Also, we desperately need to trade one of these guys and Murph is the most valuable NOW. Foster needs to be traded this year as well. Then we are left with a few expirings still and a handful of young guys with small contracts heading into 2011, which is the perfect situation for us to be in.

PS - I don't mean to incite anything with my directness of that first sentence either Will.

Will Galen
01-14-2010, 09:52 PM
I am sorry Will (and others who think this) but you are mistaken. It's another year for him to come up lame with an injury and give him no trade value other than his contract. We don't need Murphy for WINS right now. Also, we desperately need to trade one of these guys and Murph is the most valuable NOW. Foster needs to be traded this year as well. Then we are left with a few expirings still and a handful of young guys with small contracts heading into 2011, which is the perfect situation for us to be in.

PS - I don't mean to incite anything with my directness of that first sentence either Will.

I have no problem with your post. But as I pointed out we don't have to do anything at 'this' trade deadline so we are not desperate.

And as for Murphy, sure there's a chance he could get hurt, but that's a part of the game that you can't do anything about so you don't worry about it.

pacergod2
01-14-2010, 10:26 PM
I have no problem with your post. But as I pointed out we don't have to do anything at 'this' trade deadline so we are not desperate.

And as for Murphy, sure there's a chance he could get hurt, but that's a part of the game that you can't do anything about so you don't worry about it.

We should prioritize getting rid of ONE of those contracts though. It will make things much much harder if we don't get rid of any of the four. We only need to get rid of one and we will be fine. I agree. And as for worrying about Murphy getting hurt, he isn't hurt now, so trade him to guarantee he doesn't. We go from having a very valuable commodity for a playoff run to having a guy not playing for the next twelve months and running around on a bum knee once he does. That sounds like a terrible scenario, so I wouldn't take my chances if I am the Pacers.

I have a ridiculous gain on my stocks and I could really use the money right now, but if I sit on it, I could get a little bit more, lose a little, or go for broke. The point is that I could really use the money now and have a hell of a gain. We could really benefit from trading Murphy now. Let's not take any chances IMO.

Will Galen
01-14-2010, 10:38 PM
We could really benefit from trading Murphy now. Let's not take any chances IMO.

I agree we could really benefit from trading Murphy now, depending of course on what we would receive back.

Where we disagree is you want the benefit now whereas I'm willing to wait.

So of course I like it that Bird is willing to wait. :p

pacergod2
01-14-2010, 10:44 PM
I agree we could really benefit from trading Murphy now, depending of course on what we would receive back.

Where we disagree is you want the benefit now whereas I'm willing to wait.

So of course I like it that Bird is willing to wait. :p

I am a very patient person as well. I think we need the cap relief this year. I am pushing for cap relief and not value. Our priorities are different too I believe and that is the source of our disagreement. I absolutely positively think that if we don't relieve ourselves of at least one and hopefully two contracts we will have done ourselves a disservice by this deadline. I would love to trade them both for cap relief. It will allow Bird and Morway to do so much more going forward.

aceace
01-15-2010, 11:56 AM
Nothing wrong with asking for the world and settling for a couple big countries. It's a month before the trade deadline. Murphy was like the 25th rated player in the league according to Yahoo stats. Finished last season as a top 5 rebounder and 3pt shooter. You want him now you pay.

Personally I would see how the next month goes after watching the last 2 games. We beat 2 really good teams and this is only the 11th game we have played with Murph,Dun and Danny together (according to TV).

Zelmo Beatty
01-15-2010, 12:09 PM
Will is of course correct that Murphy's 'contract' will be even
more attractive a year from now. Wether Murphy will be more
attractive 'as a player' (or, as an on-the-court asset) is another
question altogether.

Infinite MAN_force
01-15-2010, 01:49 PM
The idea that murphy will have "more" value next year is folly. He will have the value of an expiring contract... just like Foster, Dunleavy, AND Ford. We will have plenty of expiring contracts next year to make deals with even if we trade one of them (murph) now.

The priority is getting under the luxury tax threshold, and one of these players is getting dealt one way or another because ownership WILL NOT pay the luxury tax. At the moment, Murph is the most likely candidate and will probably bring the most value.

Kraut N Beer
01-15-2010, 02:15 PM
I think Murphy may be much harder to move this year than most people think because of the smaller cap next year and the big names that will be free agents this summer. Every team is dealing with the cap issue next season and only a handful of teams have the resources and willingness to pay the luxury tax. Whatever team trades for him will have to tie up a huge chunk of money in Murphy for 2010-2011 and limits what they can do this offseason. Cleveland is likely the best (and maybe only) hope if they think Murphy can help them win the title and have a better shot at keeping LeBron.