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View Full Version : The Phoenix Rises From the Ashes II-Pacers Win



owl
01-13-2010, 10:34 PM
Obrien played just about everyone and the Pacers come back from 24 tonight and 23
against Orlando. I see a slight ray of sunshine breaking through the clouds.

LG33
01-13-2010, 10:37 PM
Shouldn't this thread be titled: Suns @ Pacers Post-Game - 0 Minutes for McRoberts?

My question for the future is: Do we need to go down 20+ to win games?

vnzla81
01-13-2010, 10:39 PM
is it bad to feel good about Dunleavy because his trade value is going up?:)

thelostpacer
01-13-2010, 10:41 PM
wins a win this was a ungly win but win neverless

PaceBalls
01-13-2010, 10:41 PM
lol... great thread titles both.

How about this one?

The Phoenix, after rising from the ashes a few games ago, is destroyed by a Pacers team totally on fire, turning the Phoenix back to ash, with Nash, which will surely rise again from the ashes.

Will Galen
01-13-2010, 10:41 PM
is it bad to feel good about Dunleavy because his trade value is going up?:)

I don't think Dun is going anywhere. I think we will let him expire and then try to resign him. For less money of course.

Ozwalt72
01-13-2010, 10:41 PM
Hibbert played one hell of a fourth quarter.

Nash is the best passer in the league. Maybe the best PG. At 35.

Didn't see Murphy out there in the fourth until Hibbert fouled out. Maybe Obrien looked at Murph's 4th quarter production.

Granger looks healthy.

vnzla81
01-13-2010, 10:42 PM
I don't think Dun is going anywhere. I think we will let him expire and then try to resign him. For less money of course.

why do the pacers want to resign an old player?

CableKC
01-13-2010, 10:44 PM
I really hope that this is a sign that Dunleavy is starting to break out of his shooting slump.

I Love P
01-13-2010, 10:44 PM
Great win vs a good team now they will go to New Jersey and lose.

esabyrn333
01-13-2010, 10:46 PM
why do the pacers want to resign an old player?

If he can be resigned for a resonable price he would be a great sixth man and a solid locker room guy. Provide leadership when things are going bad and it helps that he is a good guy and he is active in the community.

LG33
01-13-2010, 10:47 PM
Let's give credit where credit is due - where is credit due?

I had to turn off the best parts of the game - our comeback - because of bandwidth complaints from my brother and another roommate. Analysis?

owl
01-13-2010, 10:53 PM
Watson ran the offense and Danny scored. Plus Roy played until he fouled out late in the
4th. I guess you have to give credit to Obrien for finally relenting on playing Troy
max minutes.

Los Angeles
01-13-2010, 10:56 PM
Phoenix?

the jaddler
01-13-2010, 11:03 PM
Shouldn't this thread be titled: Suns @ Pacers Post-Game - 0 Minutes for McRoberts?

My question for the future is: Do we need to go down 20+ to win games?

no we shouldnt have to, but we are coming back and getting the win. so now they can work on not going down so far, plus if we give mcbob some minutes we may not go down so far!!!!:laugh:

CableKC
01-13-2010, 11:04 PM
Let's give credit where credit is due - where is credit due?

I had to turn off the best parts of the game - our comeback - because of bandwidth complaints from my brother and another roommate. Analysis?
We did fairly poor...if not typical in the 1st half. I didn't watch the Raptors game where we pulled an upset while being 23+ down...but I'd guess it was similiar for us tonight in the 2nd half.

Dunleavy, Hibbert and Granger did well and was able to help us in the 2nd half.

For some reason, Hibbert staying in until he actually fouled out is surprising ( given what we know of JO'B ). However, I think that someone on the Suns fell asleep at the wheel.....Hibbert was out there for a good # of minutes in the 4th QTR with 5 fouls...and they didn't attack Hibbert.

Dunleavy score the majority of his points in the 2nd half where he was hitting many shots. Granger was doing what he usually does....jack up 3pt shots......especially at the end of the game...but this time...he was hitting them. He essentially stepped on the throat of the Suns and held them there until they were forced to heave up 3pt shots.

BornReady
01-13-2010, 11:06 PM
how were our rookies today? scoreboard doesnt look promising but i dont want to use numbers to judge a player

Trophy
01-13-2010, 11:08 PM
is it bad to feel good about Dunleavy because his trade value is going up?:)

He's going no where any time soon.

I don't understand why some people only hope a player does well on their "favorite" team just so they're traded and the team wins because of that player. :hmm:

pwee31
01-13-2010, 11:11 PM
2 wins in a row against .500 or above teams.

Nice to see the guys battle back.

The Granger and Dunleavy combo tonight is what I've been hoping to see for 2 years now, so that was SWEET!

Roy played great off the bench. I had a feeling Dahntay would make an impact the next time he hit the floor and he did.

Rush had like 5 blocks.. didn't even know he played

Nash was a little too much for Price, glad J'Ob went to Watson when he did.

Nice win.. let's get one on the road Friday!

Hansbrough didn't play much, seems to be playing a little to fast, and was lost on defense some. had 3 early offense rebounds though.

Our team actually won the free throw battle tonight... Viva la Resistance!!

Unclebuck
01-13-2010, 11:13 PM
I thought Watson defended Nash extremely well and that was a big plus, very noticeable difference between Earl and Price.

Overall it was very similar to Monday night, Pacers defense was really good in the second half - shows they can play good defense.

PaceBalls
01-13-2010, 11:16 PM
He's going no where any time soon.

I don't understand why some people only hope a player does well on their "favorite" team just so they're traded and the team wins because of that player. :hmm:

Well, it makes sense if those people think those players are not that good, and hold the team back. :hmm:

PaceBalls
01-13-2010, 11:21 PM
I thought Watson defended Nash extremely well and that was a big plus, very noticeable difference between Earl and Price.

Overall it was very similar to Monday night, Pacers defense was really good in the second half - shows they can play good defense.

Which either really pisses me off for them not putting forth that effort 100% of the time, or I am relieved that we have a team that can be that good and isn't just terrible as many have suspected.

I'm torn between conflicting emotions about the Pacers! :jekyllhyd

the jaddler
01-13-2010, 11:22 PM
Ok, guys. We've won two games in a row. If we win tonight, its called a winning streak. IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE- Major League

Trophy
01-13-2010, 11:22 PM
Well, it makes sense if those people think those players are not that good, and hold the team back. :hmm:

No individual is holding the team.

Major Cold
01-13-2010, 11:23 PM
If you weren't smiling when Danny was nailing their coffin over and over, your cynicism has gotten the best of you.

They came back and fought off a late charge, give them credit at something. Some of you just need to move to Philly to supplement the stereotype.

PaceBalls
01-13-2010, 11:24 PM
2 wins in a row against .500 or above teams.

Nice to see the guys battle back.

The Granger and Dunleavy combo tonight is what I've been hoping to see for 2 years now, so that was SWEET!

Roy played great off the bench. I had a feeling Dahntay would make an impact the next time he hit the floor and he did.

Rush had like 5 blocks.. didn't even know he played

Nash was a little too much for Price, glad J'Ob went to Watson when he did.

Nice win.. let's get one on the road Friday!

Hansbrough didn't play much, seems to be playing a little to fast, and was lost on defense some. had 3 early offense rebounds though.

Our team actually won the free throw battle tonight... Viva la Resistance!!

Tyler seemed lost everywhere tonight. He was lost on defense, lost on offense, he was playing on instincts, which accounts for those 3 Off. rbs. That was probably the worst performance I've seen by him. Ever. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was on meds, or dizzy or whatever...

PaceBalls
01-13-2010, 11:26 PM
No individual is holding the team.

No not the players, but the use the players. At least that has always been my problem.

Hell, I won't complain more tonight. They beat the Suns! :dance: :buddies:

Trophy
01-13-2010, 11:30 PM
I hope we do not embarrass ourselves in NJ Friday night. I'm going to be there so I'm hoping for a win.

Major Cold
01-13-2010, 11:31 PM
why do the pacers want to resign an old player?


Cause teams like the Mavericks wish they would had resigned Nash.

If Dun is playing like he did tonight in 2 years, I would be glad to give him 6 million and 25 mpg.

trey
01-13-2010, 11:31 PM
It's awesome that we won... but is anyone else a little worried that we're gonna win just enough that we get another not quite bad but not quite good draft pick, and still miss the playoffs?

graphic-er
01-13-2010, 11:34 PM
Well atleast they are starting to get to form of last year's team. Play to the level of your competition. They compete and win against the good teams, and totally blow it against the bottom feeders. I can live with that during this rebuilding season.

BornReady
01-13-2010, 11:35 PM
It's awesome that we won... but is anyone else a little worried that we're gonna win just enough that we get another not quite bad but not quite good draft pick, and still miss the playoffs?

lol no way
the way they were playing earlier this year, i was wondering if theyd ever win again.
GO PACERS!

D-BONE
01-13-2010, 11:39 PM
I thought Watson defended Nash extremely well and that was a big plus, very noticeable difference between Earl and Price.

Overall it was very similar to Monday night, Pacers defense was really good in the second half - shows they can play good defense.

I think that was Earl's best all around game this year. His defensive performance was akin to Granger's stint on Bosh closing out the game. Earl's was more extensive minutes, but more in intensity and determination. Plus it's impact on the game itself was huge. Joy to watch.

McKeyFan
01-13-2010, 11:46 PM
Well, this may be a game the streakers and non streakers and the Murphs and non Murphs can agree on.

JOB played a defensive minded unit with Dahntay Jones for a long stretch in the second half, and kept Dahntay in until the end, or near the end.

Hibbert came in for Murphy and stayed in for a long time in the second half, made a serious contribution toward our comeback. Murphy did not return until 3 minutes left because Roy fouled out.

AJ Price got some good burn, but JOB put Watson in just when he needed to down the stretch, because better defense was needed against Nash (who is incredibly good).

If JOB can keep making personnel decisions like this, I will be happy. This game could be a breakthrough for us this season.

owl
01-13-2010, 11:47 PM
Do I detect another 5 game win streak brewing? I think Brandon does his best work when
he is not relied upon.
At what point does JOS become JOB again?

ToasterBusVIP
01-13-2010, 11:50 PM
No individual is holding the team.

Agreed, whether or not a player is "holding his team back" depends entirely on a few specific things. Is more money tied up in that player than he's worth? (at the moment, yes). Is he taking minutes away from someone who would be more productive (with our other options at SG right now, that's very debatable), is he an older player who, will still productive, is eating up minutes that are valuable to a younger player's development (that depends on your evaluation of Rush).

Aside from being overpaid, I'd argue that Dunleavy earns his minutes with his production, particularly when he's playing at full strength. Unless a better option comes along at SG, he'd still be a value to us at a reasonable price (what do you all think...5-6 mil a year? And could we hope to resign him for that kind of deal?)

PaceBalls
01-13-2010, 11:55 PM
I'm with ya McKeyFan, after absolutely horrible personnel decisions the first half, JOB coached one of his better games the 2nd half tonight. Credit where credit is due.

AND he also did the same thing in the last game. This picture epitomizes a Raptor fans frustration. LOL how often can we see pics like this?
http://raptorsrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pacers5.jpg

IUfan4life
01-14-2010, 12:03 AM
dunleavy is not the problem, no use in trading him. he improves our team so much, and I can't comprehend anyone wanting to get rid of him

graphic-er
01-14-2010, 12:06 AM
So any one know anything about the Fan who was in the blue body suit? I've never seen him at games before. They showed him alot on the Tube.

ToasterBusVIP
01-14-2010, 12:17 AM
So any one know anything about the Fan who was in the blue body suit? I've never seen him at games before. They showed him alot on the Tube.

Don't know...but I heard JOB tried to put him in the lineup tonight too. :D

CableKC
01-14-2010, 12:20 AM
Well, this may be a game the streakers and non streakers and the Murphs and non Murphs can agree on.

JOB played a defensive minded unit with Dahntay Jones for a long stretch in the second half, and kept Dahntay in until the end, or near the end.

Hibbert came in for Murphy and stayed in for a long time in the second half, made a serious contribution toward our comeback. Murphy did not return until 3 minutes left because Roy fouled out.
Can someone confirm this?

I watched the game.....and did notice that Hibbert was out there for a large # of minutes....but didn't pay attention to whether Murphy really joined the game until Hibbert fouled out.

If this is the case......just to :stirthepo is it possible that we were able to come back in the 2nd half with our Defense was because Hibbert was in and ( most notably ) someone ( won't say who ) wasn't manning the Center spot for the majority of the 2nd half?

I noticed that we ran a lot of lineups with Granger at the PF and Hibbert at the Center too...

Swingman
01-14-2010, 12:21 AM
I didn't realize we only have 6 guys with contracts going into 2011 and Granger is the only one above 3 million. If we can resign Dunleavy for a good deal, we'll be able to afford some pretty good pieces.

I'm sure most of you already knew that but have to like all the options it will open up for the Pacers.

Midcoasted
01-14-2010, 12:24 AM
how were our rookies today? scoreboard doesnt look promising but i dont want to use numbers to judge a player


Hansboro came out strong but obviously was still suffering from his ear infection and the rust he is gaining. It will take at least 3 weeks to get him fully in shape. He had 3 quick offensive rebounds and still looked promising.

Price had a big three and had some GREAT passes. He made some rookie mistakes but he is still learning. This was his most mistake prone game in the last 6 or so but he still played through it pretty solid.

Hibbert looked amazing. Finally when they put him in when we were down by like 24 people started cheering and I knew we would mount a comeback. He picked up his 5th foul early in the 4th but showed he can play under the pressure of fouls by staying in all the way until like 2-3 minutes left. He played GREAT on Amare and Murphy did well on certain plays. So far Hibbert>Duncan, Howard, Stoudamire, for those games at least.

We should take note of whats going on here. We have a team progressing in front of our eyes. We played some great D tonight when it mattered. We were making them alter their shots all second half.

Great team win. I would say this was our least sloppy comeback game in a while. It was actually like clockwork tonight. We looked like the better team in the second half IMO, even though Nash and Stoudamire are unstoppable most of the time. Not so much tonight for Stoudamire...

Granger, Dunleavy, Hibbert, Murphy, Watson, that actually is a dangerous lineup if these players live up to their full potentials all at once sometime in the future.

Watson really looked great tonight. Murphy actually played through his early shooting woes and had some good rebounds and defense. Granger was on fire. Him and Mike 100 percent healthy at the top of their game may be the most dangerous wing combo in the game. They both can get 30 when on.

Hibbert really spaced the floor tonight. Someone better make O'Brien realize that. He kept Amare away from the basket because Amare was having to fight him in the post. It really opened our game up when Hibbert came in. He created so much space in the lane time and time again against Amare, agaisnt Dwight, against Duncan. We need to exploit this more and stop digging these holes. We could actually be a decent team.

Great game by D Jones as well and Head had a few defensive plays that made me smile. That is all right now. Looking forward to Friday where we have a chance to extend this thing to 3 in a row.

cinotimz
01-14-2010, 12:26 AM
Why does it feel like John Wall is slipping through our fingertips with each passing day...

Midcoasted
01-14-2010, 12:29 AM
I didn't realize we only have 6 guys with contracts going into 2011 and Granger is the only one above 3 million. If we can resign Dunleavy for a good deal, we'll be able to afford some pretty good pieces.

I'm sure most of you already knew that but have to like all the options it will open up for the Pacers.

I've had this same train of thought earlier this year. I think Murphy will still draw about 7-8 million a year if he plays like this through next year so I don't think we keep him. Dunleavy if we can get him for 6 mil then yes we keep him. Him and Granger are a deadly combo on the wing and Dunleavy may actually have healed an old knee injury. He just is getting into form and should play well the next 5 games at least. If we keep improving our defense at the positions around them it allows for a player like Dunleavy to flourish.

MagicRat
01-14-2010, 12:30 AM
If this is the case......just to :stirthepo is it possible that we were able to come back in the 2nd half with our Defense was because Hibbert was in and ( most notably ) someone ( won't say who ) wasn't manning the Center spot for the majority of the 2nd half?

The Pacers were down 3 when Murphy went out in the third and up one when he came back in when Roy fouled out.

He came back in, spaced the floor beautifully and propelled them to an easy victory......:dance:

LG33
01-14-2010, 12:32 AM
:laugh: Absolutely love the avatar. Best Avatar of the Year?

count55
01-14-2010, 12:35 AM
Can someone confirm this?

I watched the game.....and did notice that Hibbert was out there for a large # of minutes....but didn't pay attention to whether Murphy really joined the game until Hibbert fouled out.

If this is the case......just to :stirthepo is it possible that we were able to come back in the 2nd half with our Defense was because Hibbert was in and ( most notably ) someone ( won't say who ) wasn't manning the Center spot for the majority of the 2nd half?

I noticed that we ran a lot of lineups with Granger at the PF and Hibbert at the Center too...

Murphy played most of the third quarter, and he was joined by Hibbert at the 8:30 mark. To that point the Pacers had cut 6 points off the 16 point halftime lead, then when Murphy left at the 2:30 mark, it was down to 4 points.

Murphy returned at the 3:11 mark of the 4th when Roy fouled out. The score was 112-110 Indy. The Pacers outscored the Suns 10-4 the rest of the way.

(Note: difference between mine and MR's are FT's that were being taken at the time of the substitution.)

So, for the second half, the Pacers were +12 when Murph was on the floor w/o Hibbert, +6 when Hibbert was on the floor w/o Murph, and +6 when they were on the floor together.

vnzla81
01-14-2010, 12:38 AM
Cause teams like the Mavericks wish they would had resigned Nash.

If Dun is playing like he did tonight in 2 years, I would be glad to give him 6 million and 25 mpg.

it was only one game lets wait until he plays a little longer before we want to give the guy a new contract:rolleyes:

Midcoasted
01-14-2010, 12:41 AM
Why does it feel like John Wall is slipping through our fingertips with each passing day...

Which could be a blessing in disguise you just never know. What happens if Wall ends up being the Ryan Leaf of basketball? We could still get a good player anywhere in the mid first and it's more important for this franchise to win a playoff series than to tank and hope something good comes of it.

Look where we got AJ Price. We look where we got Hibbert, and Hansboro. Rush is the only question mark but his defense alone makes him a player you keep for your bench. Look where we got Granger. IMO we are actually building a good team with these mid round picks.

We have our superstar in Granger. We just need a solid team around him. We have tons of youth adjusting and growing, and a former lottery pick finally coming back from a 2 year injury in his prime.

So why trade it all away for nothing and something uncertain? If we believe in any move we've made in the last year we don't blow this thing up yet. TJ Ford goodbye, but Im not comfortable with giving up Murphy for a salary dump, that is just ridiculous. He is showing he is worth that money. He has been playing lights out regardless of our record with and without him.

Im eating a lot of my own words right now but I'm just trying to be objective. Sure we may suck the rest of this year, we may not. What Im looking forward to is how Hibbert and Rush look in year 3, what Hansboro and Price look like in year 2, what Granger looks like, and what our rookies looks like. I think playoff experience this year will be a far greater benefit to all of these players than any rookie lottery pick would, unless John Wall is the next Shaq, which I just am not sure of at this point.

IUfan4life
01-14-2010, 12:53 AM
Why does it feel like John Wall is slipping through our fingertips with each passing day...

can't please everyone I guess

BRushWithDeath
01-14-2010, 01:16 AM
Shouldn't this thread be titled: Suns @ Pacers Post-Game - 0 Minutes for McRoberts?

I realize you're being facetious but I don't see any reason for Solomon Jones to play over him. Or Travis Diener to dress over him for that matter.

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2010, 01:31 AM
For some reason, Hibbert staying in until he actually fouled out is surprising ( given what we know of JO'B ). However, I think that someone on the Suns fell asleep at the wheel.....Hibbert was out there for a good # of minutes in the 4th QTR with 5 fouls...and they didn't attack Hibbert.

Dunleavy score the majority of his points in the 2nd half where he was hitting many shots. Granger was doing what he usually does....jack up 3pt shots......especially at the end of the game...but this time...he was hitting them. He essentially stepped on the throat of the Suns and held them there until they were forced to heave up 3pt shots.
Um, Cable, this is oddly way wrong for you.

When Hibbert and Amare got 5 fouls the two teams went back and forth at them. Nash and Amare went PnR up top damn near every possession and there was nothing Roy could do because of his 5 fouls. Then the Pacers did the same thing to Amare, basically working Roy or working off of Roy.

So it went back and forth with neither big man able to defend the rim safely and lots of easy scores in close. Typically for PHX Nash just kept his dribble into the lane for a shot or dump as Roy retreated.


But JOB was smart to just keep Roy in and use him to punish PHX. He had Amare in danger and did foul out Hill when he took the foul in order to protect Amare.



The comeback was mostly Dunleavy and some outstanding defense in general. Rush had a classic Rush game, 5 blocks, giving guys a tough time, but literally not involved in the scoring. Granger seemed to have some of his touch back, although he still seems to struggle with on-ball defense.

And I'm saying it, Troy Murphy played some outstanding defense in the 2nd half. He had some nice individual plays, steals, blocks or tips, but also had several great rotations way ahead of the play. He looked inspired on defense to be honest.

And really what it showed to me is that if one of your top paid guys and "star" actually makes good on the defensive end, your team can win a game.

Of course I guess his one way game meant that he couldn't buy a shot if he was going to have a decent defensive game. I wonder what it will look like if he does both at the same time? :)



Price made at least 4 or more great passes. Not just good, but really brilliant. He drove to set them up, typically went with a bounce and sometimes came across his chest or slung them from his shoulder down for extra force, and they were to guys at the rim and got there safely and with them having a chance to make the easy shot.

Solo couldn't flush a dunk and a couple of others were missed bunnies, all of which lost assists for AJ. But clearly the few mistakes he made were nothing compared to how well he runs the floor.

I am at the point already where I want the ball moved to him every play because I trust his vision and judgment so much.



Dahntay played a really smart game, but no surprise there. It's too bad he doesn't have the outside shot because it hurt him when he tried to feed the post as his man sagged totally off, but otherwise it's good to have him out there mostly.

Hicks
01-14-2010, 01:38 AM
Why does it feel like John Wall is slipping through our fingertips with each passing day...

He was never in our grasp. Regardless of how true/false you think that is, don't wait up on him; he's not coming.

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2010, 01:42 AM
I realize you're being facetious but I don't see any reason for Solomon Jones to play over him. Or Travis Diener to dress over him for that matter.
Or Tyler IMO, yet another shot stuffed down his throat. He does not have the vert to score well in traffic. And the center jump - embarrassingly non-competitive.

The shot he drew a foul on was a flip from the hip using the hand farthest from the rim, like a hook shot released from his waist. Credit to get the foul, but I didn't see why the shot was being defended. It of course missed badly and would have without contact.

But I don't mind them trying to feel out their top pick and he did chase down rebounds. It's fine that he plays, he should get some burn. But there are nights when he needs to sit and McRobert's should play instead.


What bugs me is that with a smaller team, small enough to not use Roy early on, that JOB wouldn't prefer the quicker, hoppier McRoberts vs Solo. Solo is much closer to being the Roy backup than a small/quick PF.

If guys like DJones can be totally shut out some nights and Roy can sit for about 16 minutes before getting out there, then it's not going to wreck the team to back off Troy some nights and use McBob for 10 minutes.

It's almost like JOB is afraid of McBob showing someone up.

Trader Joe
01-14-2010, 01:47 AM
I think the legend of McBob is probably the most absurd thing going on at PD right now...Seriously...He isn't significantly better than Solo, it's a freaking toss up between the two of them, yes McBob has had some good games this year, but so has SJones and McBob has also laid some stinkers throughout his career. They are who they are, 10th-12th men in the NBA, and arguing over who between the two of them should get minutes is like deciding what pair of socks you're gonna wear, yeah you're gonna wear one of the pairs and heck one pair might be a little bit newer, but they're still socks.

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2010, 01:48 AM
Well, this may be a game the streakers and non streakers and the Murphs and non Murphs can agree on.

JOB played a defensive minded unit with Dahntay Jones for a long stretch in the second half, and kept Dahntay in until the end, or near the end.

Hibbert came in for Murphy and stayed in for a long time in the second half, made a serious contribution toward our comeback. Murphy did not return until 3 minutes left because Roy fouled out.

AJ Price got some good burn, but JOB put Watson in just when he needed to down the stretch, because better defense was needed against Nash (who is incredibly good).

If JOB can keep making personnel decisions like this, I will be happy. This game could be a breakthrough for us this season.
100% agree. I was thinking "Nash is just killing Price, might need Watson back in" and bingo. I thought "ride Roy out now, and work him on offense while you still have him", bingo again.

It was like a pretty well coached 2nd half. Stuff that most of us have been wanting to see was actually done and surprisingly they came back for the win. Shocking.

imawhat
01-14-2010, 02:16 AM
It was like a pretty well coached 2nd half. Stuff that most of us have been wanting to see was actually done and surprisingly they came back for the win. Shocking.

I agree, O'Brien should get a lot of credit for this one. His rotations/strategy in the second half were great; probably the best of the season. It was very enjoyable to watch.

This was a game of rarities. Dunleavy looked considerably stronger (and better) tonight. Danny has played his two best games of the season in a row. Dahntay finally got the time he deserved. Earl was tough.

I'm most excited about Dunleavy and the coaching. It seems like the team is slowly waking up. Now I'm conditioned for a dud against a bad team. *edit* next game against the Nets. I consider a win against the Nets as big as the previous two.

IndySDExport
01-14-2010, 02:48 AM
It's awesome that we won... but is anyone else a little worried that we're gonna win just enough that we get another not quite bad but not quite good draft pick, and still miss the playoffs?

I have to argue with this type of mentality that has been floating around the board for a while. I hate to spout a cliche, but "you play to win the game."
They may not make the playoffs, but I am not going to pray for the Pacers to tank the season so they get John Wall. Lets ask Portland and the Clippers how they view their #1 picks. I'll take Roy, Tyler, A.J., and Danny Granger, thank you very much. I just think it's a bad idea to hang my hopes on a future lottery pick. Yes, you may get Lebron James. But then again, you might get Kwame Brown.

I'm just happy that this team is finally starting to show some heart. I am not surprised nor do I get annoyed when they get down by 20 now. It unfortunately seems normal. I am, however, proud that they no longer seem to hold there heads in shame (hello TJ Ford); instead, they keep fighting. A quality that has been sorely missing for the past few months.

I hope this trend continues. I pray they continue to develop their young players. And if Mike and Danny keep playing healthy and up to their potential, this team just might become interesting this year.

d_c
01-14-2010, 03:45 AM
I'll take Roy, Tyler, A.J., and Danny Granger, thank you very much.

I like all those guys, but to be seriously competitive, the Pacers need to get more talented than that bunch of guys on the whole. If that's your long term core, you've got a ceiling of about 42-45 wins.

Dr. Awesome
01-14-2010, 04:57 AM
It's awesome that we won... but is anyone else a little worried that we're gonna win just enough that we get another not quite bad but not quite good draft pick, and still miss the playoffs?

We are officially looking at another late lottery pick. We can't keep doing this. I loved seeing the win, but at some point we need a stud next to Granger.

I think Hibbert could become that guy, but not with Obie - and even when he does, we need someone else. We will find a thousand role players in the late lottery, we need someone with All-Star potential.

Erik
01-14-2010, 07:00 AM
So any one know anything about the Fan who was in the blue body suit? I've never seen him at games before. They showed him alot on the Tube.I give that guy credit for this win. No offense Duke Dynamite, but why did I automatically wonder if that was you when I saw that guy?

Erik
01-14-2010, 07:02 AM
Why does it feel like John Wall is slipping through our fingertips with each passing day...
I'd rather win with Danny today than dream about winning with someone else tomorrow.

Major Cold
01-14-2010, 07:19 AM
it was only one game lets wait until he plays a little longer before we want to give the guy a new contract:rolleyes:


But you asked the question why would we want to resign him? I gave a plausible scenario.

It may be one game. He may have 20 games like the previous 20. Or he could rekindle the magic. And if he does he would deserve it.

Relax.

cinotimz
01-14-2010, 08:04 AM
He was never in our grasp. Regardless of how true/false you think that is, don't wait up on him; he's not coming.

I really am not sure how you can say that. Just a couple of days ago, there were only two teams that had worse records than us, and we had just lost a game to one of them.

Now-fortunately or unfortunatly depending how you look at it-because of this little mini run, there are 6 teams that have worse records than us.

Considering that recent history tells you realistically need to be in the bottom five to have a decent shot at the number 1, I would certainly not say he never was or isnt in our grasp.

Most importantly Im really not excited about a repeat performance of the last few years where we win just enough games to drop from the top of the lottery to the bottom of the lottery. Winning 30 games versus winning 18 just doesnt feel that much different. However the benefit of winning 18 games from a draft standpoint compared to winning 30 games can be significant. And better yet could help break us out of this late lottery rut.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 09:28 AM
This idea that O'Brien coached a great second half but a horrible first half cracks me up. This is one of my pet peeves and one of the big reasons why I tend to defend the coach whoever it might be. The analysis that he coached bad in the first and good in the second pre-supposes that each half starts at ground zero, or each game starts at ground zero. Most of the coaching is done before the game, sure a substitution here or thwere can help or hurt at the margins. But the Pacers won not because of Jim O'Brien, the Pacers played great in the second half, terrible in the first, not because of O'Brien. Once again some of you I think are wrong as it seems like you are drawing a straight line between the coach and the outcome of a game. He coached bad we fall behind by 20, he coaches good we come back and win the game. That is about 2% of what is going on IMO.

I just think to analyze the game as coach did a poor job in the first half, great job in the second is so simplistic and IMO just wrong and is missing the point almost entirely.

If the Suns had hit a couple of threes at the end of the game and had won the game by 1 point, most would be ripping the coach for not playing Roy more, and D. Jones more, and I'm sure for many more things I cannot even think of

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 09:37 AM
So, for the second half, the Pacers were +12 when Murph was on the floor w/o Hibbert, +6 when Hibbert was on the floor w/o Murph, and +6 when they were on the floor together.

Thank you. It is good to have the correct stats as many were veering into the common refrain, Murphy on the floor = bad, Murphy on the bench = good. What are the updated win/loss record with Murph and without - has that about evened up yet.

McKeyFan
01-14-2010, 09:38 AM
This idea that O'Brien coached a great second half but a horrible first half cracks me up. This is one of my pet peeves and one of the big reasons why I tend to defend the coach whoever it might be. The analysis that he coached bad in the first and good in the second pre-supposes that each half starts at ground zero, or each game starts at ground zero. Most of the coaching is done before the game, sure a substitution here or thwere can help or hurt at the margins. But the Pacers won not because of Jim O'Brien, the Pacers played great in the second half, terrible in the first, not because of O'Brien. Once again some of you I think are wrong as it seems like you are drawing a straight line between the coach and the outcome of a game. He coached bad we fall behind by 20, he coaches good we come back and win the game. That is about 2% of what is going on IMO.

I just think to analyze the game as coach did a poor job in the first half, great job in the second is so simplistic and IMO just wrong and is missing the point almost entirely.

If the Suns had hit a couple of threes at the end of the game and had won the game by 1 point, most would be ripping the coach for not playing Roy more, and D. Jones more, so forth and so on

Well, isn't that how it works? You get criticized for a loss and praised for a win? I mean, I know you want to try and stay above the fray and all, but doesn't a win or a loss become, at the end of the day, the barometer?

First half vs. second half:

In the first half, we scored less points than Phoenix and Roy and Dahntay played very little.

In the second half, we scored more points than Phoenix and Roy and Dahntay played a lot of minutes.

Poor coaching vs. smart coaching, imo.

Simple as that, and it doesn't really matter if JOB planned all this a day or two ahead or not. It's good or it stinks either way.

McKeyFan
01-14-2010, 09:39 AM
Thank you. It is good to have the correct stats as many were veering into the common refrain, Murphy on the floor = bad, Murphy on the bench = good. What are the updated win/loss record with Murph and without - has that about evened up yet.

Evened up?

I think its somewhere around 7 and 20

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 09:40 AM
I like all those guys, but to be seriously competitive, the Pacers need to get more talented than that bunch of guys on the whole. If that's your long term core, you've got a ceiling of about 42-45 wins.
But you can't rely on the draft to get you that. You need other sources as well.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 09:41 AM
I think the legend of McBob is probably the most absurd thing going on at PD right now...Seriously...He isn't significantly better than Solo, it's a freaking toss up between the two of them, yes McBob has had some good games this year, but so has SJones and McBob has also laid some stinkers throughout his career. They are who they are, 10th-12th men in the NBA, and arguing over who between the two of them should get minutes is like deciding what pair of socks you're gonna wear, yeah you're gonna wear one of the pairs and heck one pair might be a little bit newer, but they're still socks.

Post of the month

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 09:50 AM
It was like a pretty well coached 2nd half. Stuff that most of us have been wanting to see was actually done and surprisingly they came back for the win. Shocking.

"Stuff that most of us have been wanting to see"

The problem of what I am about to do is that sure some of us did want some of this done, but a number of us didn't.

But here it goes anyway: Did some of us really want Murphy to play center to start the second half? I don't remember anyone advocating that. Did some of us want Murphy to play 12 straight minutes to start the second half, you know the guarantee loser - play him and lose, not play him and win - you know the refrain. Did some of us want Murphy to play in the last 3 minutes of a close game - I don't remember that either.

Why am I pointing these minor things out. Only to show that O'Brien didn't really do anything different from what he normally does, - only difference is the pacers won - so it just seems different to a lot of you.

BPump33
01-14-2010, 09:57 AM
On a less Murphy-related note, we are very lucky to have Roy Hibbert. There are definitely more talented big men in the NBA, but I'm not sure anyone plays with the passion of Roy. When he fouled out last night he got in Danny's face and was pushing him around to get/keep him fired up. He's like a big kid out there the way he plays the game, it's truly fun to watch.

I know we tend to judge players on a game to game basis around here, but we need to look at the big picture with Roy. We have a 7-2 center that actually cares about the game of basketball. He is going to continue to get better and I can't wait to see what we have in a few years with this guy.

Oh, and while at the game last night I was looking for T.J., but didn't see him. Does anyone know if he was even in the building? I saw Jeff and McBob, but I didn't notice T.J. Aren't inactive guys that aren't injured usually at least in the building on game nights?

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 10:11 AM
In the first half, we scored less points than Phoenix and Roy and Dahntay played very little.

In the second half, we scored more points than Phoenix and Roy and Dahntay played a lot of minutes.

Poor coaching vs. smart coaching, imo.

Simple as that, and it doesn't really matter if JOB planned all this a day or two ahead or not. It's good or it stinks either way.

I just disagree with that direct of a correlation. Poor coaching we lose, smart coaching we win. Beyond that I thought Jim coached the second half like he did the first half, some minor adjustments but those adjustments could have just as easily not worked, but I guess I don't equate the win to the coaching at least not as directly as you do.

I don't think the reason why the pacers played poorly in the first half is because Jones and Roy played very little, nor do I think the pacers played well in the second half because Roy and Jones played a lot. IMO it could have been just as easily the other way around and next game is might very well be, so then is it O'Brien's fault.

Rasmus
01-14-2010, 10:12 AM
Saw from TV, when Foster and TJ taked their seats right before tip-off.

McKeyFan
01-14-2010, 10:14 AM
O'Brien didn't really do anything different from what he normally does, - only difference is the pacers won - so it just seems different to a lot of you.

JOB does not normally play Roy in the last 8 minutes.

JOB does not normally sit Murph for large portions of the fourth quarter.

JOB, recently, has not been playing Dahntay at all, much less down the stretch.

Since Granger returned, we rarely if ever have seen the lineup of:

Watson/Price
Rush
DJones
Granger
Hibbert

And didn't see it at all before he was injured, except during the win streak.

JOB did a lot of things different in this game.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 10:20 AM
JOB does not normally play Roy in the last 8 minutes.

JOB does not normally sit Murph for large portions of the fourth quarter.

JOB, recently, has not been playing Dahntay at all, much less down the stretch.

Since Granger returned, we rarely if ever have seen the lineup of:

Watson/Price
Rush
DJones
Granger
Hibbert

And didn't see it at all before he was injured, except during the win streak.

JOB did a lot of things different in this game.


Not sure about all that - but lets see what happens over more than a game or two. Oops are you saying this is the 5 game win streak lineup - no it can't be Dunleavy didn't play in November then nor did Murphy and both of them were key last night. The key quarter last night was the third and Murphy played all but the last couple of minutes,

kester99
01-14-2010, 10:33 AM
Thank you. It is good to have the correct stats as many were veering into the common refrain, Murphy on the floor = bad, Murphy on the bench = good. What are the updated win/loss record with Murph and without - has that about evened up yet.


My count shows Murphy in 6 of our 13 wins, and 21 of our 25 losses.

Ozwalt72
01-14-2010, 10:38 AM
Not sure about all that - but lets see what happens over more than a game or two. Oops are you saying this is the 5 game win streak lineup - no it can't be Dunleavy didn't play in November then nor did Murphy and both of them were key last night. The key quarter last night was the third and Murphy played all but the last couple of minutes,

I agree, let's see if it is a trend.

Obrien did some things last night that were simply different than what he's does previously. Plenty of fans, I'm sure even you, have noticed that Murphy's play tends to drop off in the fourth quarter. Obrien put Roy in for Murphy at the right time.

His rotations were different in the second half. You can't say that ROTATIONS DON'T MATTER. Playing the right people at the right time for the right amount of time. (see hibbert, murphy, jones, watson) THAT's in-game coaching. He put Troy in after Hibbert fouled out. Amare had 5 fouls. Troy closed the game out defensively very well.

A good coach puts players in position to succeed.

Let them have this one game. One game that they're actually praising Obrien.

BillS
01-14-2010, 10:51 AM
I think O'Brien showed significant difference in the way he adjusted in this game compared to a lot of others. I am not going to speculate on why, as one of <i>my</i> pet peeves is people who think they are inside other people's brains. However, just sticking with a player who was doing well even when the pre-defined situation changed is a big change for him, and pulling a player at the right time for the right reasons is something he hasn't gotten credit for this season at all.

Hibbert was put in when Stoudamire went out, but he continued to do well when Amare came back in so was left there. AJ was left in despite his mistakes but was pulled when it became clear he was getting a little rookie abuse at both ends of the floor.

Roy needs to work on his ability to hit that hook shot no matter what position he finds himself in - it is currently too easy to get him too far out and turned away, where he misses it. The redeeming thing was that by getting the ball inside we often got another player into position near the ream who could get his miss and get a new possession or even a tip-in.

My final comment is that to me this game showed how offense helps the defense, rather than how we usually discuss it the other way around. We were missing shots and turning the ball over in the first quarter and most of the second, leading to very difficult to defend fast break and transition opportunities for Phoenix. Once we settled that down and started getting the ball inside, we had tiome to get back on defense and set up. Unlike many, I don't see high scores when the Pacers are turning the ball over and missing outside shots as bad or half-effort defense. I don't think the defensive intensity was any less in the first half (shots were challenged when possible, rotations were being made hard, some mistakes were made but not too many), I think what changed was the offensive strategy which helped the defense immensely.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2010, 11:46 AM
But you can't rely on the draft to get you that. You need other sources as well.


As we all know, there are 3 ways to build a team... FA, trades, and the draft.
The chances of an Allstar FA coming to the Pacers are extremely low at best, chances of getting an Allstar (I mean an Allstar not some 1 time flash in the pan Magloire, Nelson, Mo Williams type player) thru a trade is extremely low, so the best avenue for getting a player with Allstar potential for this team is getting one by drafting in the top 1-7. You take a bad season to go forward for the future. You take 1 step backwards to take 2 steps forward. This seaon is almost half over with a record of 13-25. Even if the Pacers won 25 games out of the last 44 games that is only the 38 games I predicted to begin with. The Pacers season has stunk so far, so might as well let it continue to stink the last 44 games in order to draft a player with can "really" help the Pacers in the future. One that can be a difference maker and not another Rush or Shawne Williams. The Pacers need a player who isn't just a nice rotational player, they need another player to go along with Granger and a team filled with role players if you ever want to contend for a championship. The drafting around #5 is the best way of getting that player. That is taking a chance with Bird picking the player, but this is almost a one time chance so by all means capitalize on it.

Hicks
01-14-2010, 11:48 AM
I like all those guys, but to be seriously competitive, the Pacers need to get more talented than that bunch of guys on the whole. If that's your long term core, you've got a ceiling of about 42-45 wins.

What does that even really mean, that we were going to forfeit our next two 1st rounders and not do anything with our improved cap situation next year? Why even say that?

Hicks
01-14-2010, 11:53 AM
I really am not sure how you can say that. Just a couple of days ago, there were only two teams that had worse records than us, and we had just lost a game to one of them.

Now-fortunately or unfortunatly depending how you look at it-because of this little mini run, there are 6 teams that have worse records than us.

Considering that recent history tells you realistically need to be in the bottom five to have a decent shot at the number 1, I would certainly not say he never was or isnt in our grasp.

Most importantly Im really not excited about a repeat performance of the last few years where we win just enough games to drop from the top of the lottery to the bottom of the lottery. Winning 30 games versus winning 18 just doesnt feel that much different. However the benefit of winning 18 games from a draft standpoint compared to winning 30 games can be significant. And better yet could help break us out of this late lottery rut.

I've always believed we were due to go on at least one significant run (be that a win streak or a stretch of winning as much or more than losing), and I knew that would push us right out of the conversation for Wall.

I think we very well may be seeing one of those stretches developing right now.

We're at New Jersey tomorrow, and play a not-so-hot Hornets team Saturday.

I could certainly envision us losing both, but this team is starting to feel like last year's team, and that points to a much more competitive stretch.

I won't sit here and say I "know" it will happen that way, but I'm fairly confident it will. Probably more than once before April hits.

If it does, I'm just glad it might be starting now as opposed to a month from now. At this point, we still could at least make the post-season in this pathetic conference.

Not to say I'm thrilled about that, but since I'm convinced we won't get a top player in the draft, I'd rather they at least try to compete for something instead. It wouldn't hurt to give the rookies and sophomores a taste of the playoffs, even if it's a beat down.

Brad8888
01-14-2010, 11:53 AM
Well done, Dun.

Dun is not done.

Dun
Dun Dun
Dun
DUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 11:56 AM
As we all know, there are 3 ways to build a team... FA, trades, and the draft.
The chances of an Allstar FA coming to the Pacers are extremely low at best, chances of getting an Allstar (I mean an Allstar not some 1 time flash in the pan Magloire, Nelson, Mo Williams type player) thru a trade is extremely low, so the best avenue for getting a player with Allstar potential for this team is getting one by drafting in the top 1-7. You take a bad season to go forward for the future. You take 1 step backwards to take 2 steps forward. This seaon is almost half over with a record of 13-25. Even if the Pacers won 25 games out of the last 44 games that is only the 38 games I predicted to begin with. The Pacers season has stunk so far, so might as well let it continue to stink the last 44 games in order to draft a player with can "really" help the Pacers in the future. One that can be a difference maker and not another Rush or Shawne Williams. The Pacers need a player who isn't just a nice rotational player, they need another player to go along with Granger and a team filled with role players if you ever want to contend for a championship. The drafting around #5 is the best way of getting that player. That is taking a chance with Bird picking the player, but this is almost a one time chance so by all means capitalize on it.
1-7 doesn't guarantee All-Star.

You're basically calling Rush a bust. Too soon, man. Too soon.

I'm not going to just accept this team mailing it in and "playing" for a draft pick. You're suggesting tanking. That's bullcrap.

Putnam
01-14-2010, 12:10 PM
Why does it feel like John Wall is slipping through our fingertips with each passing day...

John Wall isn't in our fingertips. Nowhere near them.

I don't want to be crabby, but anyone who thinks there is any certainty in the NBA draft doesn't understand probability.

.

vnzla81
01-14-2010, 12:11 PM
I give that guy credit for this win. No offense Duke Dynamite, but why did I automatically wonder if that was you when I saw that guy?

I thought the same thing........................:laugh::laugh:

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 12:13 PM
I give that guy credit for this win. No offense Duke Dynamite, but why did I automatically wonder if that was you when I saw that guy?
I'm not thin enough to be that guy. :-p

Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things.

Bball
01-14-2010, 12:19 PM
Not sure about all that - but lets see what happens over more than a game or two. Oops are you saying this is the 5 game win streak lineup - no it can't be Dunleavy didn't play in November then nor did Murphy and both of them were key last night. The key quarter last night was the third and Murphy played all but the last couple of minutes,

I think you're missing the point that the "Five Game Win Streak Fans" (FGWSF) are making.

Yes, part of it's about the lineup and part of it is about the style of basketball that we saw and the on court chemistry that stemmed from it. The FGWSF's like seeing a traditional low post presence with a power forward beside him who has some power and/or defense in his game. They, like me, don't believe in this 5 guys to stretch the defense crap. Other teams stretch the defense with a player or two, not 5. You need screeners and shooters and role players who are all pieces to the puzzle, not 5 guys who can all hit the 3.

With the team utilizing Hibbert the offense wasn't so frantic. The defense came to life... which probably had as much to do with the better balance and pace on offense as anything. And then with the team playing a more team oriented brand of basketball, the fans and players seemed to unite.

I don't think Indiana fans are ever going to be enthralled watching 5 guys taking hurried shots without actually running some type of offense outside of 'helter skelter'.

The FGWSF's probably would accept Murphy in more of a limited role but not in the major minutes O'Brien gives him. As noted by many FGWSF's, his 4th qtr offensive production drops WAY off. I'd be willing to bet the majority of his points have all came in either the 1st or 2nd qtr. By the 4th not only have defenses remembered to account for his trailing the play and taking a pass at the top of the key for a 3, but he also looks to have tired arms/legs and leaves those 3's short off the front of the rim. Meanwhile, his defense starts out bad in the first and grows worse throughout the game and the team does nothing to hide him on defense or minimize that issue. With Murphy in the role he's typically in it harms other players because of defensive breakdowns... or because late in the game his offense typically goes away and becomes misses.

Nobody is saying: Play these guys only (which is what your argument usually comes back to). They are saying play this style of ball and the guys you have that can and will play it. It's better basketball with more upside. And IMHO the fans connect more with it. Not this "gotta stretch the defense with 5 players" and "offense before defense" crap that is the root of everything O'Brien keeps reverting to.

IMHO....

Note: I don't officially represent the FGWSF's and am not their spokesperson but I think I understand exactly their point well enough to believe in it.

vnzla81
01-14-2010, 12:20 PM
I'm not thin enough to be that guy. :-p

Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things.

I thought the same thing..................:-p I was looking for your wife to see if it was you............:)

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 12:29 PM
I thought the same thing..................:-p I was looking for your wife to see if it was you............:)
She doesn't go much anymore, but it's because of her work schedule. My brother was with me this time.

You can usually spot me wearing a jersey or warm-up jacket. No capes, masks or unitards. :D

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 12:42 PM
Note: I don't officially represent the FGWSF's and am not their spokesperson but I think I understand exactly their point well enough to believe in it.

You might want to join their team and be their spokesperson.

Peck
01-14-2010, 01:20 PM
She doesn't go much anymore, but it's because of her work schedule. My brother was with me this time.

You can usually spot me wearing a jersey or warm-up jacket eating a Ritters frozen Ice cream or drinking a beer. No capes, masks or unitards. :D

Fixed.:-p:D

Justin Tyme
01-14-2010, 01:31 PM
1-7 doesn't guarantee All-Star.

You're basically calling Rush a bust. Too soon, man. Too soon.

I'm not going to just accept this team mailing it in and "playing" for a draft pick. You're suggesting tanking. That's bullcrap.


NO, it doesn't, but the odds are better getting one than at 13-17 does! Rush is nothing more than a rotational player. The Pacers have a team of them now, why do you feel the need for another one? That's exactly what this team will end up with if they draft 13-17.

I have NEVER advocated tanking, NEVER. My feeling is you just let JOS continue his coaching style, and it will happen naturally.

MagicRat
01-14-2010, 01:32 PM
I don't officially represent the "Four Game Home Court Winning Streak Fans" (FGHCWSF's), but here is what they're telling me:

FGHCWSF's like it that almost everybody on the roster contributed in some way, shape or form during the FGHCWS. FGHCWSF's wonder what happened to the other half of "Gentlemen Jugglers". FGHCWSF's like it that 3 of the four teams they beat were playoff teams. FGHCWSF's always like it when the Pacers win. FGHCWSF's wish the t-shirt gatling gun reached the balcony. And even though they didn't play in the FGHCWS, FGHCWSF's don't hate Ford, Foster or Diener.

Bball
01-14-2010, 01:37 PM
You might want to join their team and be their spokesperson.


I had a deal in place but then Leno wanted the gig. Looks like they are going with Leno as the spokesman. I appreciate the support tho! :buddies:

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 01:44 PM
Fixed.:-p:D
Perfect!

duke dynamite
01-14-2010, 01:46 PM
NO, it doesn't, but the odds are better getting one than at 13-17 does! Rush is nothing more than a rotational player. The Pacers have a team of them now, why do you feel the need for another one? That's exactly what this team will end up with if they draft 13-17.

I have NEVER advocated tanking, NEVER. My feeling is you just let JOS continue his coaching style, and it will happen naturally.
Even if Rush is just a rotational player that still doesn't make him a bust.

Either way, if you believe that you want us to continue in the direction we're going you are advocating losing. Wanting to lose=tanking. It doesn't matter whose head you're putting it on, it's still wanting your team to lose in order to gain a specific goal.

Trophy
01-14-2010, 01:48 PM
Everyone watching tomorrow night's game in NJ can spot me in my bright gold Murph jersey right behind the bench. I might blend in with their golds.

That's standing out enough as a road fan. No cape or mask needed.

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2010, 02:01 PM
McBob has also laid some stinkers throughout his career.
Link?

Find me a 15 minute or greater game where it was a stinker, at least with the Pacers.

Now contrast that with the number of games where he contributed in a significant way, either high scoring, rebounds, assists or blocks. He might not always be great in a couple of those areas, but I'm not sure he's ever failed to deliver something productive in at least one of them.

I keep hearing "remember when he stunk", and my answer is "not really". I think his overall start to this season was lackluster, but then his playing time was super low and clearly subject to not being able to get into game flow.

Imagine I'm the coach and I played Tyler 5 minutes for 6 of 8 games, didn't play him in the other 2. Imagine he put up the numbers you think Tyler does. Then I bench Tyler for 15 straight games because he's not getting it done.

Do you guys really have the guts to tell me you wouldn't rip on me for being anti-Tyler and unfair to him? Everyone hates how much I criticize Tyler already and I'm saying I would still give him burn and try to develop him, simply because that's far better than just giving up on him.

So JOB is me except much, much less reasonable.

And it took being hammered over the head with the obvious on Roy in the post and AJ at point before it got acted on.

Again the reminder, Roy and AJ DID THIS IN THE SUMMER. Right then we saw HOW (forget the weaker opponents) they played the game. It was obvious right then. I had a meltdown when in preseason he didn't jump all over it.

So this stuff isn't hard to see and I don't think I read AJ or Roy well and am somehow clueless on McRoberts.


The McBob legend isn't that he's Amare. The McBob legend is that he's been better than Tyler (by the numbers, last year and this) and yet is mysteriously absent from rotations, and that the coach has a habit of burying very talented players for a long time before finally giving them a chance.

He just did it last night with Roy. By JOB's own actions he F'd up by not going to Roy sooner. How do you explain Roy being useful enough to ride out with 5 fouls vs Amare late in the game but not useful against Amare in the first half of the same game?

A miracle, or judgment that everyone in Conseco (per applause) realized was wrong, not to mention what the final outcome in the 4th showed us.

So I'm not taking JOB's word on McBob. I know what I've seen and he's been as capable out there as Price or Roy IMO.

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2010, 02:09 PM
Yes, part of it's about the lineup and part of it is about the style of basketball that we saw and the on court chemistry that stemmed from it.
FTW.

Other than Roy you don't really have a good low post option, so that's where him playing is one key. You want players that like to work off the low post rather than hunt for their own shot off the dribble, thus interest in Price and Rush. And you want defenders, so Watson, DJones and Solo are people we want to see.

Now if Troy plays the greatly improved defense then he fits, even without much of a shot as was the case last night.

And Dun works if he can make his shots enough to keep people honest because he is also a great team facilitator that can work with an inside-out game, or even go inside with his height a bit himself.

I like Luther, but he's a defensive issue and I've always said that. I wanted him to play, but JOB went nuts with it because he loves the shooting. I'd rather have Rush out there not really shooting much but playing good team ball at both ends, especially on defense.


When you see AJ, Rush, Jones, Granger and Roy out there you see what people in this group would consider perhaps the best lineup, balanced not just at both ends but in how they can play on either end. They can handle some defensive switching, they can attack with some outside shooting to protect the inside game. It's a nice mesh that looks like "normal" quality basketball.

Midcoasted
01-14-2010, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=Bball;944924] They, like me, don't believe in this 5 guys to stretch the defense crap. QUOTE]

This was so blatantly obvious last night. JOBs definition of stretch the defense often goes beyone what it is meant to be. We were down by 20+ until Hibbert saw a single minute. Just because Hibbert doesn't shoot 3s doesn't mean he doesn't "stretch the defense." A good post presence stretches the defense just as well. It always best utilized in a balanced manner.

Meaning have guys that can stretch the D but guys that can also clear up things down low, like Hibbert did last night. Just the fact that Amare was having to battle Hibbert on Rebounds and post up with him created a lot for our offense. The lanes were clear as soon as Hibbert started demanding a few doubles and forced one man to have a body on him at all time, usually their best post defender at the time.

When Hibbert was in, things were wide open for Granger and Dun and Murphy and Watson

Naptown_Seth
01-14-2010, 02:18 PM
"Stuff that most of us have been wanting to see"

The problem of what I am about to do is that sure some of us did want some of this done, but a number of us didn't.

But here it goes anyway: Did some of us really want Murphy to play center to start the second half? I don't remember anyone advocating that. Did some of us want Murphy to play 12 straight minutes to start the second half, you know the guarantee loser - play him and lose, not play him and win - you know the refrain. Did some of us want Murphy to play in the last 3 minutes of a close game - I don't remember that either.

Why am I pointing these minor things out. Only to show that O'Brien didn't really do anything different from what he normally does, - only difference is the pacers won - so it just seems different to a lot of you.
Brilliant. McKeyFan oversimplifies things in your opinion, but then you say this because Troy's playing time in the 3rd completely summarizes the only differences between the halves.

Nothing else changed. Real subtle, really a complex analysis by you.

Why are you doing this, why are you acting like you didn't see AJ run the point more or more low post work (A LOT MORE) or more DJones or that who plays has anything to do with coaching, like players are just subbing themselves in, reading the first half script and doing things identical to what they guy they replaced did.


[rant]
You dismiss +/-, you dismiss roster changes, you dismiss play calling changes...what's next, just dismiss the final score too. Like if AJ, Rush, Jones, Granger and Roy play all 48 minutes and win by 20 it will just be random chance and no different than if TJ, Watson, Dun, Tyler and Troy did the same and lost by 20....because AJ and Rush played 10 minutes in the 2nd game and therefore proved there is no difference.

kester99
01-14-2010, 02:24 PM
How do you explain Roy being useful enough to ride out with 5 fouls vs Amare late in the game but not useful against Amare in the first half of the same game?



If he'd started, he easily could have fouled out and not been available at all in the 4th. MAYBE JOB wanted him playable in the 4th, foresaw the foul trouble, knew that he could start Tyler instead, and take Murphy out late, thus avoiding the Murphy 4th period fade (M4PF). MAYBE JOB is a freakin' genius! Huh??

You didn't think about that.

BillS
01-14-2010, 02:29 PM
By JOB's own actions he F'd up by not going to Roy sooner. How do you explain Roy being useful enough to ride out with 5 fouls vs Amare late in the game but not useful against Amare in the first half of the same game?

Because Roy started out when Amare wasn't on the floor, giving him some momentum before he started getting his fouls? Because if Roy was in with Amare from the beginning of the game he might have been on the bench with 3 fouls before the end of the first quarter (and don't even try to tell me that a good coach plays his starting center with three fouls early in the game)?

The strategy, as JOB said at the post-game conference (which I finally got to hear some of by virtue of not leaving the Fieldhouse until late), was to put Hibbert in when Amare came out. It worked.

I'd bet you dollars for doughnuts that if Foster had been available he'd have started instead of Tyler, and Tyler would probably also be in street clothes.

Midcoasted
01-14-2010, 02:36 PM
If he'd started, he easily could have fouled out and not been available at all in the 4th. MAYBE JOB wanted him playable in the 4th, foresaw the foul trouble, knew that he could start Murphy instead, and take HIM out late, thus avoiding the Murphy 4th period fade (M4PF). MAYBE JOB is a freakin' genius! Huh??

You didn't think about that.

For once he adjusted perfectly. Hibbert lasting all the way until a few minutes left allowed Murphy to rest on the bench in the 4th, where he is usually out of legs. He came in rested at the end and really helped us seal it once Roy went out. For once, Murphy had fresh legs late in the 4th, due to the superb play by Hibbert through the 4th.

Hibbert proved he can stay out of foul trouble when needed but he still likes to deliver the hard fouls IMO.

I also see the different adjustments in the game. JOB tried to start doing what he always does, JOS just like McKeyFan Says. It took us getting down by 24 for him to adjust which still seems worrisome to me. We aren't out of the woods yet. JOS still thrives. His game plan was the reason we got into this hole. It took his new found game plans to get us back. Im wondering if Larry is forcing him to run these rotations more and more. I do see more Price, more post work for Hibbert, and I bet we will for Hans when he plays more. It seems Granger and Murphy and Dun are still shooting 3s but they are balancing it out more by driving to the basket, and we also seem to be doing more half court sets.

I think this all proves JOBs old system doesn't work and this modified system that is slowly being employed is the way to go. Hopefully we come out against the Nets feeding off Hibbert. I gaurantee he can exploit the Nets and I think Granger and Dunleavy have finally arrived for the first time in 2 years. If Murphy is stepping up his game for trade value good because if he is playing better and we are still playing him there are only good things coming out of it for us. We could really be rolling going into a trade if Dunleavy and Granger keep playing like they did last night.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 02:56 PM
Brilliant. McKeyFan oversimplifies things in your opinion, but then you say this because Troy's playing time in the 3rd completely summarizes the only differences between the halves.

Nothing else changed. Real subtle, really a complex analysis by you.

Why are you doing this, why are you acting like you didn't see AJ run the point more or more low post work (A LOT MORE) or more DJones or that who plays has anything to do with coaching, like players are just subbing themselves in, reading the first half script and doing things identical to what they guy they replaced did.


[rant]
You dismiss +/-, you dismiss roster changes, you dismiss play calling changes...what's next, just dismiss the final score too. Like if AJ, Rush, Jones, Granger and Roy play all 48 minutes and win by 20 it will just be random chance and no different than if TJ, Watson, Dun, Tyler and Troy did the same and lost by 20....because AJ and Rush played 10 minutes in the 2nd game and therefore proved there is no difference.


I reject the notion that Jim coaches bad we fall down by 24, Jim coaches well and we comeback and win - that was the basis for my post. And an offfshoot of that is - coaching during a game in general is way overrated.

There was a huge difference between the halves - but it wasn't because of coaching. It was because the Pacers were getting killed and the players starting playing with heart, hustle, they gained the momentum and they were able to win the game,.

My points about Murph were little digs referencing what I thought was the prevailing theory that Murph plays and we lose or at the very least we play bad

Since86
01-14-2010, 03:02 PM
It was because the Pacers were getting killed and the players starting playing with heart, hustle, they gained the momentum and they were able to win the game,.

Roy and DJones didn't get any burn when they got down. When they came back, they were getting minutes. They are saying that due to him changing up the lineup, that has something to do with how the team played.

You're trying to make the argument that no matter who was in the game, it would have turned out the same.

They are saying that because different players saw the floor, that was the reason for the difference in playing style.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 03:10 PM
Roy and DJones didn't get any burn when they got down. When they came back, they were getting minutes. They are saying that due to him changing up the lineup, that has something to do with how the team played.

You're trying to make the argument that no matter who was in the game, it would have turned out the same.

They are saying that because different players saw the floor, that was the reason for the difference in playing style.

OK, I can buy all of that. I'm not saying it would have turned out the same, I am arguing about the coaching, not even really who wasn't and who was on the floor. If the thought is that it was great coaching to play Roy and Jones in the second half. Then I have to ask what if Jim does the same thing tomorrow night and the pacers blow a 10 point lead in the 4th quarter with Jones and Roy in the game. Does that make it bad coaching then?

BillS
01-14-2010, 03:10 PM
Roy and DJones didn't get any burn when they got down. When they came back, they were getting minutes. They are saying that due to him changing up the lineup, that has something to do with how the team played.

You're trying to make the argument that no matter who was in the game, it would have turned out the same.

They are saying that because different players saw the floor, that was the reason for the difference in playing style.

But why is that "bad" coaching vs. "good" coaching? Isn't it always good coaching to see the outcome of actions and make adjustments? Couldn't one argue that if he had made certain adjustments earlier we might not have been in the right place to get the streak to the end of the game? Mightn't one say that since many of the same players who couldn't hit the barn in the first half even when wide open were hitting in the second half that time also was a factor?

I think the argument isn't about the effect of the changes, it is about whether simply making the change separates the quality of the coaching into two pieces.

McKeyFan
01-14-2010, 03:11 PM
I reject the notion that Jim coaches bad we fall down by 24, Jim coaches well and we comeback and win - that was the basis for my post. And an offfshoot of that is - coaching during a game in general is way overrated.

There was a huge difference between the halves - but it wasn't because of coaching. It was because the Pacers were getting killed and the players starting playing with heart, hustle, they gained the momentum and they were able to win the game,.

My points about Murph were little digs referencing what I thought was the prevailing theory that Murph plays and we lose or at the very least we play bad

Okay, so you're saying coaching is overrated. It's players who win and lose games.

So, if Stan Van Gundy gave the majority of minutes to Reddick, Gortat, Foyle, Jason Williams and AJ, would it be the players fault or Van Gundy's fault that they lost?

:whoknows:

Since86
01-14-2010, 03:15 PM
Because most of us reject the notion of playing 5 guys that can spread the floor. (Playing Murph at center most noteably)

Obviously playing Roy and DJones isn't going to lead you to 82 wins a season. Hell, it might not even lead to 41 wins a season. But this gimmick offense is sickening to watch, especially when it leads to HORRIBLE defense on the other end.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 03:23 PM
Okay, so you're saying coaching is overrated. It's players who win and lose games.

So, if Stan Van Gundy gave the majority of minutes to Reddick, Gortat, Foyle, Jason Williams and AJ, would it be the players fault or Van Gundy's fault that they lost?

:whoknows:

No coaching isn't overrated. But coaching within a game is overrated. Coaching during training camp is underrated. Coaching during practice is underrated, coaching during film sessions is underrated, coaching during team meetings, shootarounds is underrated. The coach sets the tone for the team and that is very important. The relationship betwen the coach and his players is underrated.

The most important thing for any NBA coach, for any NBA franchise is the relationship between the coach and the teams best player. if that is good all the other players fall in line - they buy into the system, they work hard in practice......The Spurs and the relationship between Duncan and Pop is a prime example. The Spurs have been so good so consistanly over the years because of that dynamics between Pop and TD doesn't matter so much who the center is, or the 6th man or the 8th man. Pop is a great coach not because he knows who to play when but because of the relationship with his star player.

Edit: stupid me - Thanks LoneGranger33 - another huge point in coaching is whether your team is prepared to play. Do they know the other teams plays, have they gone through the gameplan, know the other teams tendencies.....so forth and so on. This typically is more important in the playoffs because there is time to prepare, but it is important for the coach to prepare his team 82 times a year but a good coach knows not to overburden them with stuff, and only go over what is needed.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 03:27 PM
Because most of us reject the notion of playing 5 guys that can spread the floor. (Playing Murph at center most noteably)



Murphy started the second half at center (and that was when we made up the largest part of the deficit) and yet so many are praising O'Brien for a great second half coaching job - why? he did exactly what most of you hate - play Murphy at center. Those that hate that should not be praising JOB because if he does it tomorrow night (and the pacers lose the game) you will be ripping JOB a new one

LG33
01-14-2010, 03:32 PM
A well-coached team doesn't fall behind by twenty points in the first half on a fairly consistent basis - that's not good preparation.

Since86
01-14-2010, 03:34 PM
They were down 14 to start the second half. When Roy came in, they were down 10. That's not making up the largest part of the deficit. (8:30 left in 3rd)

DJones came in when they were down 6, replacing Danny. (3:54 left in 3rd)

Danny then came in and replaced Troy, when they were down 4. (2:30 left in 3rd)

When Roy left the game, they were up 2. (3:11 left in the 4th)

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 03:37 PM
A well-coached team doesn't fall behind by twenty points in the first half on a fairly consistent basis - that's not good preparation.

OK, that is IMO a fair point to consider. Is this team ready to play at the start of games? I think we would do better to discuss this point more so than whether Josh plays 8 mionutes or not at all. On this point it seems like there have been a fair number of games where they played well in the first quarter and falter after that, so I'm not sure if there is a pattern of not beinfg ready to play. I'm not sure, I would have to give it some thought a a little research

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 03:42 PM
They were down 14 to start the second half. When Roy came in, they were down 10. That's not making up the largest part of the deficit. (8:30 left in 3rd)

DJones came in when they were down 6, replacing Danny. (3:54 left in 3rd)

Danny then came in and replaced Troy, when they were down 4. (2:30 left in 3rd)

When Roy left the game, they were up 2. (3:11 left in the 4th)

My bad, I was thinking about only of Murph and his playing the first 10 minutes of the third quarter - forgot Roy came in at the 8 minute mark

MagicRat
01-14-2010, 04:24 PM
They were down 14 to start the second half. When Roy came in, they were down 10. That's not making up the largest part of the deficit. (8:30 left in 3rd)

They were down 16 at half, and it would've been 19 if TroTro hadn't splashed a three at the buzzer to jumpstart the comeback........

:dance: Instant Replay - Support Ruling 00:00.0:dance:

Brad8888
01-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Average coaches provide the foundation for success by laying the groundwork for what they believe is required to win games within their system, and they are likely to consider skills that their systems are designed towards to be "fundamentals".

Better coaches recognize faults within their systems and adjust for those on a routine basis and eventually come up with something that maximizes the strengths of the roster, whether that matches their initial vision for that roster or not.

The best coaches refine what they put in place by making adjustments to strategy and personnel during games when they recognize that their assumptions regarding their opponents capabilities and strategies is not working, and that is the difference between being a mediocre (being generous here) team and a team that is tough to play against and tends to win more consistently than its talent would otherwise suggest.

Last night, O'Brien changed personnel for the second half, played Roy and then left him in the game when at virtually no other time this season would he have done so given the same set of circumstances. His second half coaching actually is one of the main reasons the team was in a position to make the run it did and finish the game with a win. It would be wrong, in my opinion, to blame him for the team fallling behind as we would have expected in the first half. That simply reflected the fact that our shots only fell 33% of the time, and that Troy was ice cold. To Jim's credit, he did not simply stay with Troy and finish off the expected blowout.

docpaul
01-14-2010, 05:08 PM
Single best highlight of the game for me:

Hibbert's beautiful post back-to-the-hoop hook shot and one against Stoudamire in the third.

You could almost envision another piece of the puzzle click into place before your eyes.

We haven't had that for a long, long time.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Even if Rush is just a rotational player that still doesn't make him a bust.

Either way, if you believe that you want us to continue in the direction we're going you are advocating losing. Wanting to lose=tanking. It doesn't matter whose head you're putting it on, it's still wanting your team to lose in order to gain a specific goal.


Where did I say Rush was a bust? Don't say or imply something I never said. You might want to read what I post not what you think I posted. It always helps.

Some times one has to take one step backwards to take two steps forward. All I see is another rotational player at 13-17, and I'm tired of drafting them. You want to build a mediocre team that's fine, I don't! I want build a championship team, and the Pacers are limited in their resources of being able to do it. If this team plays the same the 2nd half of the season as they did the 1st half, they have a chance to get alot better from the draft.

If this was the beginning of the season, I'd be in your camp, but it's not and the Pacers 1st half the season stinks. The biggest achievement this year to hang their hat on is a 5 game winning season. Whoop whoop-t-do. I'd rather suffer through another half season this year than experience another season like this next year. I AM A PACERS FAN, and I want what's best for them. That's an opportunity to get a possible Allstar out of this years draft... not another same ole mediocre rotational player.

PacerDude
01-14-2010, 06:05 PM
Pacers come back from 24 tonight and 23 against Orlando ....Here's hoping that the Nets take a 25 point lead on Friday.

Midcoasted
01-15-2010, 05:09 AM
I AM A PACERS FAN, and I want what's best for them. That's an opportunity to get a possible Allstar out of this years draft... not another same ole mediocre rotational player.

Hmmm, our only All Star is from that portion of the draft. I don't think it's out of the question that Hibbert and Hansbrough could both make it at one point in their careers. Hibbert seems like he can change the game more at his point though so I'd say he is the most likely option.

Rush seems to be less of a mediocore rotational player and more like a phenomal defensive prospect who has some ways to go on offense, but does show flashes on offense so there is still alot of hope.

Hansbrough will get the ball rolling after the All Star break, mark my words. He is having a tough rookie year to this point but is still playing well.

And regardless of what anyone says AJ Price has proved he is a steal where we got him.

I wouldn't classify Hansbrough as mediocore, he brings a toughness we need desperately. Roy is proving he can help us win now if we give him the chance. Rush has been lights out on defense and Price has looked like the steal of the draft.

Also all of these players will progress much more in the next year and a half just wait and see...

Drafting good in almost any sports often reveals all in the 3rd year. Hibbert and Rush should come out blazing next year and Hansbrough and price in essence should have a 1 year curve. By the time 2011-2012 comes, we are going to be in the best shape this franchise has been in ever if we don't squander it with ****ty trades....

Justin Tyme
01-15-2010, 12:05 PM
Hmmm, our only All Star is from that portion of the draft. I don't think it's out of the question that Hibbert and Hansbrough could both make it at one point in their careers. Hibbert seems like he can change the game more at his point though so I'd say he is the most likely option.

Rush seems to be less of a mediocore rotational player and more like a phenomal defensive prospect who has some ways to go on offense, but does show flashes on offense so there is still alot of hope.

Hansbrough will get the ball rolling after the All Star break, mark my words. He is having a tough rookie year to this point but is still playing well.

And regardless of what anyone says AJ Price has proved he is a steal where we got him.

I wouldn't classify Hansbrough as mediocore, he brings a toughness we need desperately. Roy is proving he can help us win now if we give him the chance. Rush has been lights out on defense and Price has looked like the steal of the draft.

Also all of these players will progress much more in the next year and a half just wait and see...

Drafting good in almost any sports often reveals all in the 3rd year. Hibbert and Rush should come out blazing next year and Hansbrough and price in essence should have a 1 year curve.



By the time 2011-2012 comes, we are going to be in the best shape this franchise has been in ever


You do like to drink the Bird kool-aide, don't you.

Ever? Did you miss the team that challenged the Lakers for an NBA championship? I just don't agree with your statement "by the time 2011-12 comes around the Pacers are going to be in the best shape this franchise has been in ever." Don't bet any money you can't afford to lose on that statement.

Granger was a no brainer pick. AND yes, Granger was a steal, but how many Allstars do you find at 13-17 VS 1-9? Smart GM's build championship teams with players from 1-9 picks rather than 13-17 picks. Go ahead and tell me you would rather have a 13-17 pick that is a mediocre player than 1-9 player that can be a franchise player.

As far as Hibbert and Hansbro ever being Allstars, I can comfortably say I can't ever envision either being one. Rush is what Rush is, a role player, and nothing more.