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Anthem
01-11-2010, 11:39 PM
Look, I'm about as consistent as it gets when it comes to "Stretch Forwards." I don't like 'em and I don't think they help you win. I've been banging that drum since Larry Bird was a COACH of this team. I hated Austin Croshere's game... just hated it. I was thrilled when we moved him to Dallas, and apoplectic when we traded for Troy Murphy. I've probably been Troy's #1 critic on this board since he got here. You folks who just started noticing this year that we win more games without a stretch on the floor? Late arrivals on my bandwagon.

But credit where credit is due: this dude is tearing it up. His "worst" game since getting back was vs OKC, where he put up 15 and 15. Go check out his game-by-game stats (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/troy_murphy/game_by_game_stats.html) for this year. They're impressive. Yes, I know about his plus-minus. You don't need to explain it to me. I'm just saying that the man has been playing well in his role.

In his three games since coming back, he's taken 12 shots per game each time, and is 22 of 36 (61%) from the field. That's some serious efficiency. 7 steals isn't bad from an interior player, and in two of the three games he's had 15 rebounds. That's amazing. Heck, even his plus-minus was great for tonight's game against the Raptors. Check out his 3-point numbers... the dude is 11 for 16. Just a hair under 69%. I know he'll come down eventually, but those are absolutely great numbers.

I was watching him play tonight, and I have to wonder if he's noticed the difference in our record with and without him. He has to, right? It's been in the papers, on the broadcasts. It's gotta be in the locker room, at least on some level. Somebody or something has lit a fire under this dude, and he is doing his best to produce wins on the basketball court.

Either that, or he really wants out and is trying to showcase himself. Either way, the dude is playing some great ball right now and deserves a shout-out from somebody who didn't think he had it in him.

ChicagoJ
01-11-2010, 11:56 PM
Hater.

:D

PaceBalls
01-12-2010, 12:05 AM
I'm not ready to start singing his praises yet. But at least he wasn't a detriment. There were a few OLE! defensive lapses by him tonight, but he also made a few defensive plays to make up for it. He did shoot well, but I don't think he hit a FG in the 4th. He certainly wasn't pushing it, but I have to think he would be better on the bench once his legs are gone. He is playing very efficient on offense, and his 3pt shot is money right now early in the game.

I'd still rather see Hibbert out there :p and it really is one or the other.

Other teams that are real contenders have to be salivating over him right now. Imagine a team like the Lakers or Cleveland being able to bring Troy in, early in the game, drain 4 3pters in a row and stretch the D for Lebron or Kobe. Yeah he would fit in nice on a great team that was not relying on him for defensive stands.

HC
01-12-2010, 12:07 AM
If we got this Troy Murphy all of the time then I would not mind him being here so much.

Lance George
01-12-2010, 12:55 AM
At this point he's worth more than just an expiring.

diamonddave00
01-12-2010, 12:58 AM
Check the last 20 games not counting game in Chicago when he hurt his ankle , he's averaged 18 ppg and over 10 rpg. Shooting well over 50% from field and nearly that from 3-POINT range.

Lance George
01-12-2010, 01:06 AM
I just did a little research, and it looks like Troy is one of only three players in the league shooting at least 50/40/80 (Steve Nash and Luke Ridnour are the other two; Chris Paul is a few tenths of a percentage point away). Not too shabby.

kidthecat
01-12-2010, 01:27 AM
He does put up good numbers, though this is nothing new. To me, it has always been the "way" he has obtained these numbers. A power forward who shoots threes is a yucky idea to me -- and always has been -- but when that is about all he is good for, I can't help but feel a little queasy. A three-pointer is so situational as it is (though not with this team), and Troy only seems to be effective shooting them from the top of the key, which further limits the offense. Rarely do I see him grab a tough rebound either, though that could be my own misjudgment.

The absolutely biggest detriment to his game and the team is and always has been his atrocious defense. Like others have said, his defense is so bad it makes other players look bad defensively. It's particularly frustrating because I have on a few occasions, believe it or not, seen him play good individual defense.

The numbers argument is very short-sighted in that only a select few stats are actually measured, though I know everyone here is already aware of that. It's just a shame they don't keep stats for "times completely overpowered by the opposing player" -- Troy Murphy would be a league leader in that. I hear Jim O'Brien is a big stat guy, too...

BornReady
01-12-2010, 01:46 AM
aite then lets get something good out of him!

Dr. Awesome
01-12-2010, 02:36 AM
Am I the only one who finds it funny that over a course of a few games he went from being viewed as a black hole to a valuable trading chip?

If history tells me anything, the one most intrigued with Murphy right now is Bird, which makes me think he'll stay a Pacer.

IndyProdigy
01-12-2010, 03:05 AM
I can only hope hes tearing it up on another team sometime soon.

skyfire
01-12-2010, 03:57 AM
My fantasy team certainly is enjoying the numbers he is putting up.

bellisimo
01-12-2010, 04:33 AM
the problem is that he is usually on fire in the first half and then just disappears in the second when we need the buckets the most...

thelostpacer
01-12-2010, 05:21 AM
MR. Troy Murphy I sure do hope you keep this up so we get someone better than you?

vnzla81
01-12-2010, 06:33 AM
It looks like he is playing harder lately, sure he knows about the rumors and cleveland, he is maybe doing it to be traded and the pacers are giving him minutes to showcase him.

DGPR
01-12-2010, 08:10 AM
It looks like he is playing harder lately, sure he knows about the rumors and cleveland, he is maybe doing it to be traded and the pacers are giving him minutes to showcase him.

He won't be going anywhere until Washington decides whether they want to keep Jamison or not.

cinotimz
01-12-2010, 08:18 AM
16 Rebounds. Thats a lot.

16 Rebounds, all defensive-thats bizarre.

For those that say hes now worth more than an expiring, I say great.

Lets trade he and Ford for Shaq instead of straight up for Z.

able
01-12-2010, 08:25 AM
MY answer: 4t Q play by play;

09:32 Murphy Jump Shot: Missed
08:55 Murphy Rebound (Off:0 Def:14)
08:46 Murphy Turnover : Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal:Belinelli (2 ST)
08:14 [IND 87-89] Murphy Driving Slam Dunk Shot: Made (19 PTS) Assist: Price (2 AST)
04:42 Murphy Rebound (Off:0 Def:15)
04:34 Murphy 3pt Shot: Missed
04:10 Murphy 3pt Shot: Missed
00:31.9 Murphy Rebound (Off:0 Def:16)
00:12.0 [IND 103-100] Murphy Free Throw 1 of 2 (20 PTS)
00:12.0 Murphy Free Throw 2 of 2 Missed

was on the floor all 4th quarter for what ?

cheetos, trust me one handful and he is all yours

and if LB thinks of keeping him, then PLEASE fire his arse so fast it smokes

dohman
01-12-2010, 09:13 AM
I have said for a while that I would MUCH rather have roys 15-20 ppg he averages when murphy is gone than murphys 15 ppg. With a stretch PF we are so in the zone to only shoot threes that hibbert cannot get a look in the post and sometimes cannot even come off the bench after he has proved he is a good nba talent.

Anthem
01-12-2010, 09:27 AM
I have said for a while that I would MUCH rather have roys 15-20 ppg he averages when murphy is gone than murphys 15 ppg. With a stretch PF we are so in the zone to only shoot threes that hibbert cannot get a look in the post and sometimes cannot even come off the bench after he has proved he is a good nba talent.
Hey, I don't disagree. But Troy is who he is... the dude's not gonna add a dominant post game at this point. All I'm saying is that he's maxing out his abilities right now. He's giving you everything he's able to give you.

If all of our guys were maxing out like this, we'd have a winning record.

count55
01-12-2010, 09:28 AM
Hey, I don't disagree. But Troy is who he is... the dude's not gonna add a dominant post game at this point. All I'm saying is that he's maxing out his abilities right now. He's giving you everything he's able to give you.

If all of our guys were maxing out like this, we'd have a winning record.

Thank You.

dryley
01-12-2010, 09:54 AM
If all of our guys were maxing out like this, we'd have a winning record.[/QUOTE]

Giving away my age here......I remember when folks were getting on Pete Rose (Charley Hustle), saying he just worried about his numbers. Pete says "Hey, if we had seven more guys putting up my numbers, we'd be winnin' a hell of a lot more games" :)

Tom White
01-12-2010, 09:56 AM
Thanks for starting this thread, Anthem. I think someone needed to.

To me, it gets a bit tiresome to read people saying that Murphy's stats are "empty".

There are complaints about him only shooting the three from the top of the key. Damn, why change what is working, and working darn well?

There are complaints about his "empty" rebounds. Where the heck are the other rebounders? Solo did well when he was in, but Hibbert can't rebound from the bench. For all of Granger's good things in this game, he only had two boards. I always thought part of a PF's job was to rebound. Well, we've got one who does, yet people complain about him doing it? Go figure.

Someone (in another thread) said Murphy only gets rebounds because everyone else is blocking out for him. Bull. What I'm seeing, more often than not, is other players just standing and watching, and not going after the boards.

The complaints about his defense are the only complaints that I see as at least partially valid. But I don't really think it is a lack of any effort as much as it is just the fact he isn't very quick. He is likely the sort of player that would be better in a zone defense than man-to-man. Not excellent, just better.

Believe me, I'm not saying the guy is all-star caliber, or anything of the sort. I only think that a lot of the criticism levied at him is a bit unbalanced.

dohman
01-12-2010, 10:11 AM
Anthem dont get me wrong I love the way he is playing right now. It just always go hand in hand with hibbert either playing good or hibbert not getting playing time. I am starting to sound like a broken record but when troy plays roy doesnt. With troy out I saw hibbert scorch the dpoy for a career game.

Anthem
01-12-2010, 10:29 AM
There are complaints about him only shooting the three from the top of the key. Damn, why change what is working, and working darn well?
For the record, that's the one play by Troy that I really like. He does so well on the trailing three, and it's especially nice because his man can't run back and clog the paint on transition D. He has to stay out at the top of the key.

In my ideal world, that would be pretty much the only 3 Troy would take.

sportfireman
01-12-2010, 10:35 AM
Screw Troy Murphy!!! He's not traded yet? I'm waiting on the Troy traded to _____________ for _____________ thread!!!!!

naptownmenace
01-12-2010, 10:35 AM
I've been saying it for a couple of years but I'll say it again. Troy would be the perfect PF on a team like the Magic, Cavs, Suns, Spurs, or Lakers.

Any team with an effective post player could really use his ability to stretch the floor, knock down shots, and keep defenses from sagging on a Dwight Howard, Shaq, Amare, Duncan, or Gasol/Bynum. He not as valuable to the Pacers as a main cog as he would be as the "Robert Horry" player on one of the aforementioned teams.

The Pacers brass needs to be on the phone with those teams to see what they can get while Murph is hot. If the Pacers can get an expiring player and a future 1st rounder they should pull the trigger. Murphy isn't a part of our future anyway. Not unless Hibbert transforms into Hakeem Olajuwon in a season or 2.

Trader Joe
01-12-2010, 10:40 AM
Do any of these contending teams have a first round pick that ISN'T theirs?

Justin Tyme
01-12-2010, 10:50 AM
It looks like he is playing harder lately, sure he knows about the rumors and cleveland, he is maybe doing it to be traded and the pacers are giving him minutes to showcase him.



How much more does he need to be showcased??

His stats can't get much higher. Pull the trade Bird and Cleveland.

nerveghost
01-12-2010, 10:59 AM
We really need someone to put the ball in the basket, and Troy is doing it.

JohnnyBGoode
01-12-2010, 11:02 AM
Troy is just pure evil, we want him gone no matter how many points or rebounds he gets.

;)

I treat my ex wife better than most here treat Troy.:confused:

Justin Tyme
01-12-2010, 11:06 AM
I'm not a fan of Murphy. BUT I will give credit when due, and credit is due him of late. The type of PF Murphy is isn't my cup of tea. He'll never be mistaken for Dale Davis. I want a POWER FORWARD, and unfortunately Troy does meet that requirement. What he does meet is the requirement for Jimmy's helterskelter run n gun with little "D" system. If there is truly an opportunity for Troy to be traded to Cleveland, then I hope it happens for Troy's sake of being able to play on a real contender as well as the Pacers' sake to be able to give younger players the opportunity to develop.

Brad8888
01-12-2010, 11:15 AM
Live by the Troy, die by the Troy.

When he hits, we win or are at least competitive down to the wire because threes cover mistakes better than anything else, regardless of when he has hit during the game. When he does not hit, if he plays, we are up a creek without any maritime equipment of any kind, let alone a paddle.

able
01-12-2010, 12:41 PM
this is not about Troy's production, his numbers are great and real, but............


if the above post (mine) is not ignored then WHY are all his misses in the 4th and is his 4th Q production pure crap ?
As far as I'm concerned you bench him the 4th and tell me what you would have actually missed last ngiht for instance ?

BillS
01-12-2010, 12:45 PM
this is not about Troy's production, his numbers are great and real, but............


if the above post (mine) is not ignored then WHY are all his misses in the 4th and is his 4th Q production pure crap ?
As far as I'm concerned you bench him the 4th and tell me what you would have actually missed last ngiht for instance ?

Someone who was a threat to do what Troy did in the earlier quarters?

I don't have film to review, but what happens with Troy is that teams focus on him in the fourth when he has good numbers in the early part of the game.

This is GOOD if the rest of the team can manage to take advantage of it offensively. They did so last night.

Many players have problems in the fourth quarter. I could ask the same question at a certain level of Bosh - if he was missing all those free throws in the fourth and unable to get to the basket without being fouled, why was he in the game? It's a silly question, isn't it?

Trophy
01-12-2010, 12:46 PM
I'm sure everyone knew I would add in my 2 cents whenever it comes to a Troy Murphy thread.

Yes I'm a fan of him as a person and as a player. I'm speaking for all of the players on this team. If you're a fan of the TEAM, you should admire and support all of its players. Troy is the Pacers PF. Hoping he does well so he gets traded isn't being much of a Pacers fan. Hoping he does well for the Pacers themselves is being a good fan and not just towards Troy, but towards everyone on the team. It's a team sport and everyone works hard together to win.

Good post Anthem.

able
01-12-2010, 12:48 PM
Someone who was a threat to do what Troy did in the earlier quarters?

I don't have film to review, but what happens with Troy is that teams focus on him in the fourth when he has good numbers in the early part of the game.

This is GOOD if the rest of the team can manage to take advantage of it offensively. They did so last night.

Many players have problems in the fourth quarter. I could ask the same question at a certain level of Bosh - if he was missing all those free throws in the fourth and unable to get to the basket without being fouled, why was he in the game? It's a silly question, isn't it?


Good thing they never focussed on Reggie in the 4th then!
and his 4th q production is in this thread, i posted it

vnzla81
01-12-2010, 12:52 PM
I know everybody here is high on Murphy after one win:confused:, I would still trade his a$$ to Cleveland for big Z. He is a good player and all that but he does not make this team win because his defense is horrible, sell high.

PaceBalls
01-12-2010, 12:59 PM
sell high indeed... git r done Larry

BillS
01-12-2010, 01:01 PM
Good thing they never focussed on Reggie in the 4th then!
and his 4th q production is in this thread, i posted it

I don't think a single person in Indiana is saying Murphy is Reggie. Different players, different strengths. To me, Murphy isn't going to be your go-to guy for the entire game, but he IS going to be a guy who is enough of a threat that opponents have to put someone on him, which spreads the floor for your real go-to guys.

In regards to the production, other than the FT miss it is a matter of WHY he missed, not that he missed. Wide open and bricked it? Challenged? Getting a pass out of rhythm?

BPump33
01-12-2010, 01:36 PM
Just saw this in Ford's chat on espn.com and found it interesting....

Bill (Indy)


Why don't the Cav's trade Z and Hickson to Indy for Murphy and then pick Z back up after the Pacers buy him out?

Chad Ford (1:27 PM)


Cavs can do that if Pacers waive. But there's a waiting period. I think Pacers will probably want more (and can command more) for Murphy that just Z and Hickson.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30324

PaceBalls
01-12-2010, 01:41 PM
(1:27 PM)


Cavs can do that if Pacers waive. But there's a waiting period. I think Pacers will probably want more (and can command more) for Murphy that just Z and Hickson.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30324

Don't freakin blow it Larry...

Speed
01-12-2010, 01:50 PM
and

Hey <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.pacersdigest.com/ /><st1:country-region w:st=Chad</ST1:p</st1:country-region>, so do you think the Cavs need to make a trade? They obviously aren't going to give up Z. Thats obvious, I think that if they would, they would've traded him to G-State for Capt Jack. But last year you could argue Cavs needed to make a trade because they were poor against the better teams. This year, they are 8-3 against the top 5 teams. So, do you really think they make a trade? Do they really need to? Thanks <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pChad</st1:country-region>!!


<st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pChad</ST1:p</st1:country-region> Ford <O:p</O:p

<O:pThey'd give up Z. No question. They just want to give him up for the right guy. I think they'll definitely make a trade at the deadline. I think they're first priority is getting Antawn Jamison. If they can't pry him away from <st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:pWashington</ST1:p</st1:State>, they'll push hard for Troy Murphy.<O:p</O:p


<O:p></O:p>

gummy
01-12-2010, 02:43 PM
I'm an advocate of not starting Murph because of his chemistry problems with Hibbert and playing him 15-20 minutes per game because of his mostly very bad defense. But clearly the guy has useful skills and he is tearing it up right now. I said in last night's game thread that Murph is giving you what he can to the best of his abilities right now. He looks pretty good out there to me, and that's coming from someone who foams at the mouth every time Troy loses his man and plays matador, leading to Roy picking up a foul.

You can pull up stats that indicate Troy has dropped off big in the 4th quarter in past years. But THIS YEAR his 4th quarter production has not been bad. He does score one more point in the 1st quarter but he has not been completely disappearing in the 4th. In fact, he takes better care of the ball in the 4th, plays the most minutes of any quarter, and shoots a higher percentage in all shots. He looks slower to me on defense in the 4th but clearly he isn't all that worn out on the other side of the ball.

http://pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=942006&postcount=32

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 02:57 PM
Hey, I don't disagree. But Troy is who he is... the dude's not gonna add a dominant post game at this point. All I'm saying is that he's maxing out his abilities right now. He's giving you everything he's able to give you.

If all of our guys were maxing out like this, we'd have a winning record.

I've never had a qualm with Murphy.

All Murphy related complaints rest at O'Brien's feet.

Murphy, I agree, is playing at his max, and deserves props for that.

sportfireman
01-12-2010, 04:58 PM
Yes he is doing a good job on offense BUT on defense he is a giant liability. We've all said it before but don't let his offensive play of late fool you. Troy is Troy his defense is about as strong as Charmin....his man whips his butt with him and flushs. Since he can't stop a 5th grader his man scores 16-25 pts in a game, also gets his other fellow big men in foul trouble who try to cover for him. So he averages 12ppg and probably gives up 16ppg while getting his fellow big men foul trouble limiting their chances to play longer. So Roy and Solo finish the game with 5 or 6 fouls. Troy on the other hand.........hold on I have numbers:

Solo 15.4 mpg 2.90 fpg
Roy 29.0 mpg 3.60 fpg
Troy 31.6 mpg 2.40 fpg
Josh 11.9 mpg 1.90 fpg
Jeff 15.9 mpg 2.80 fpg
Tyler 18.7 mpg 2.60 fpg

So Troy logs the most minutes and averages the least fouls per 48 of all the big men....enabling him to stay on the floor longer playing both PF and C, good job Troy!!!

CableKC
01-12-2010, 05:01 PM
I'd argue that if JO'B wants a Stretch PF...that we have another one waiting in the wings in Granger. I don't want to play Granger as a Stretch PF...but if it allows us to relieve the logjam that we have at the SG/SF/PF rotations....then I'd move Murphy ASAP. Seriously......Murphy's trade value isn't going to get any higher.....if we can get something for him....move him now rather then later.....just don't be too greedy and realize that things may get better when our rotation becomes instantly more athletic.

CableKC
01-12-2010, 05:04 PM
I've never had a qualm with Murphy.

All Murphy related complaints rest at O'Brien's feet.

Murphy, I agree, is playing at his max, and deserves props for that.

This is where I am with Murphy.....it's how JO'B uses him.

Naptown_Seth
01-12-2010, 05:39 PM
Hey, I don't disagree. But Troy is who he is... the dude's not gonna add a dominant post game at this point. All I'm saying is that he's maxing out his abilities right now. He's giving you everything he's able to give you.

If all of our guys were maxing out like this, we'd have a winning record.
I agree, but I also agree with Able's point.

He does something well and that doesn't seem to be associated very closely with winning basketball games. Might say more about that stat than anything else, or it shows how massively deficient the defensive stats are.

Can you imagine if there was a "avoided contact when player drove lane for score" stat, or a "bit on upfake, blown past for dunk" or "let man pass and help defender drew foul instead" stat.

Then maybe the +/- would start making more sense to people.



BTW, just to pre-emptive blast the +/- hate, ALL STATS are based on who is on the court with you and if your team is making a run. Are you more likely to get assists if your team is hitting or missing shots? Are you more likely to get defensive rebounds if you are giving up makes or not? Are you more likely to get a steal if your teammates force a guy into a bad pass or not?

ALL STATS. They all depend on your teammates and your opponent. You can bump up any of them with a few lucky plays that your teammates create for you.

Rush defends a shot, Roy blocks out, Troy gets rebound. Troy gets stat, Rush and Roy get nada. Only the +/- can come close to showing this, no other stat tells you this at all.

ksuttonjr76
01-12-2010, 05:45 PM
I'm an advocate of not starting Murph because of his chemistry problems with Hibbert and playing him 15-20 minutes per game because of his mostly very bad defense. But clearly the guy has useful skills and he is tearing it up right now. I said in last night's game thread that Murph is giving you what he can to the best of his abilities right now. He looks pretty good out there to me, and that's coming from someone who foams at the mouth every time Troy loses his man and plays matador, leading to Roy picking up a foul.

That basically my opinion of Murphy's game. I want Roy to be our a dominant big man SO BADLY, but it's not possible when Murphy is on the floor. Minus the Detroit Pistons (of course, Ben Wallace was a GREAT defensive player) and the Jordan-led Bulls, the past championship teams since 1989 had dominate post players.

sportfireman
01-12-2010, 05:46 PM
\

Rush defends a shot, Roy blocks out, Troy gets rebound. Troy gets stat, Rush and Roy get nada. Only the +/- can come close to showing this, no other stat tells you this at all.

And Troy's still leading the team......... from the bottom up that is with -.267



http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22009&split=9&team=Pacers

NapTonius Monk
01-12-2010, 05:58 PM
Damn, why change what is working, and working darn well?

I'll tell ya what's funny, is you using damn and darn in the same sentence! ;)

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BlueNGold
01-12-2010, 06:45 PM
He's definitely maxing out his abilities and giving it 100%. If he plays like this or 90% like this, he could make a positive net impact even on the Pacers....although the combination of Roy and Troy will still be a bad thing. If he keeps this up, though, he could be a good asset on a team with a quick, shot-blocking big man....he's similar to Roy in that regard btw.

Here's the thing. It takes this level of efficiency for Troy to offset everything bad he does to you. Good for him though, because he's doing that at the moment.

Anthem
01-12-2010, 07:06 PM
Cavs can do that if Pacers waive. But there's a waiting period. I think Pacers will probably want more (and can command more) for Murphy that just Z and Hickson.
Interesting. Veddy interesting.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2010, 07:37 PM
what happens with Troy is that teams focus on him in the fourth when he has good numbers in the early part of the game.



If the posters on PD know he fades in the 4th like a wilted flower, you think other teams don't know the same? Good coaches know this and plan appropriately for it by telling and reminding their players.

wintermute
01-12-2010, 08:06 PM
Cavs can do that if Pacers waive. But there's a waiting period. I think Pacers will probably want more (and can command more) for Murphy that just Z and Hickson.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30324

names of teams and players please? i'd like to know what other trades chad ford thinks is out there. i know i've been wracking my brains for 2 seasons now, and i still can't think of a better fit for murphy than the cavs. it's not as if the cavs have assets beyond ilgauskus and hickson either. unless it's shaq for troy and tj? i'd rather do that myself :pray:

and i agree with anthem's original point. troy is playing as well as he possibly can. it's not his fault that he's being asked to do even more.

Anthem
01-12-2010, 08:46 PM
it's not as if the cavs have assets beyond ilgauskus and hickson either.
atc says Powe.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=943861

avoidingtheclowns
01-12-2010, 09:09 PM
atc says Powe.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=943861

And I say that without really knowing if the Cavs expect to see him on the court before the All-Star break. I can't imagine they expect him to stretch the floor like Antawn, TMurda or David West. So does his return give them what they want?

They only gave him two years for under $1mil per... not sure what that says about how they value him. If he returns to being the player he was pre-injury, it would seem to be great value at the price. If he doesn't, it's not a big financial commitment.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 09:10 PM
I love Powe.

:signit:

pwee31
01-12-2010, 11:55 PM
Troy could be raising his trade value, while also lowering the % of him being traded by Bird

JohnnyBGoode
01-13-2010, 08:54 AM
And Troy's still leading the team......... from the bottom up that is with -.267



http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22009&split=9&team=Pacers

This


This is simply a case of looking at a raw stat without analysis, which is what turns people off to +/-. The problem with the stat is even though you can track the score change while that one person is in, it is STILL affected by 9 other players on the floor. Murphy's +/- (and Granger's for that matter) is low because O'Brien has the tendency to leave those players in for the majority of games, whether we're winning or losing. The Pacers are not good, and tend to be outscored over 48 minutes. Thus players who are in for the majority of minutes, win or loss, tend to have lower numbers. In comparison, AJ Price is a situational player. He doesn't start and doesn't get the majority of the minutes. He gets put in late first/early second, and if the team continues to slide he gets pulled to try something different, thus preventing him from lowering his +/- further. When the team goes on a run he's left in to keep from stagnating the team, thus his +/- goes way up even if he's playing poorly.

If you need confirmation of this, simply look at the team's +/- chart. All of the roleplaying bench players are at the top, and all of the starters who get major minutes are at the bottom. The only two exceptions are Luther Head and Solomon Jones. Head plays major minutes, yet he's at the top of the list. It's reasonable to assume then that it's because he's boosting the team. The reverse is true for Solo. He doesn't play major minutes, yet his +/- is horrible, which leads me to believe that he simply hurts the team whenever he's in, or he only plays trash minutes.

sportfireman
01-13-2010, 09:38 AM
This


This is simply a case of looking at a raw stat without analysis, which is what turns people off to +/-. The problem with the stat is even though you can track the score change while that one person is in, it is STILL affected by 9 other players on the floor. Murphy's +/- (and Granger's for that matter) is low because O'Brien has the tendency to leave those players in for the majority of games, whether we're winning or losing. The Pacers are not good, and tend to be outscored over 48 minutes. Thus players who are in for the majority of minutes, win or loss, tend to have lower numbers. In comparison, AJ Price is a situational player. He doesn't start and doesn't get the majority of the minutes. He gets put in late first/early second, and if the team continues to slide he gets pulled to try something different, thus preventing him from lowering his +/- further. When the team goes on a run he's left in to keep from stagnating the team, thus his +/- goes way up even if he's playing poorly.

If you need confirmation of this, simply look at the team's +/- chart. All of the roleplaying bench players are at the top, and all of the starters who get major minutes are at the bottom. The only two exceptions are Luther Head and Solomon Jones. Head plays major minutes, yet he's at the top of the list. It's reasonable to assume then that it's because he's boosting the team. The reverse is true for Solo. He doesn't play major minutes, yet his +/- is horrible, which leads me to believe that he simply hurts the team whenever he's in, or he only plays trash minutes.

my post was directed at someone elses post go see for yourself. i hate the +/- stats because the intangibles don't show up on the stat sheet. the guy that tipped the pass to get a steal doesnt get anything, the guy setting the screen gets nothing, etc.

BillS
01-13-2010, 09:54 AM
If the posters on PD know he fades in the 4th like a wilted flower, you think other teams don't know the same? Good coaches know this and plan appropriately for it by telling and reminding their players.

In that case they would just leave him alone in the fourth and double team away from him. I don't see that happening, please provide examples.

gummy
01-13-2010, 02:26 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And why you are doing that Justin, you may want to check out the quarter-by-quarter stats for this year, which do not support the idea that Murph wilts in the 4th:

http://pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=942006&postcount=32 (http://pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=943680&postcount=44)

That was my perception too, btw, but I see that I was wrong - my memories of years past were overshadowing what has been happening this year.

BlueNGold
01-13-2010, 09:51 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And why you are doing that Justin, you may want to check out the quarter-by-quarter stats for this year, which do not support the idea that Murph wilts in the 4th:

http://pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=942006&postcount=32 (http://pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=943680&postcount=44)

That was my perception too, btw, but I see that I was wrong - my memories of years past were overshadowing what has been happening this year.

I wouldn't make that conclusion too quickly. Yes his FG% is very good in the 4th quarter this year, but he's producing significantly less.

He is averaging over 30% less boards and 25% less points in the 4th quarter compared to Q1....with more time on the floor in the 4th quarter than any other quarter.

Also, keep in mind this is still early and so far his numbers are a lot better than his full season stats in 2008. Like I agreed, Troy is tearing it up...but tearing it up for him is not that great when you look behind the curtain. At the moment, he is probably a net positive....but not nearly as impressive as his stats indicate.

BlueNGold
01-13-2010, 09:57 PM
my post was directed at someone elses post go see for yourself. i hate the +/- stats because the intangibles don't show up on the stat sheet. the guy that tipped the pass to get a steal doesnt get anything, the guy setting the screen gets nothing, etc.

Yes, it is very flawed....but if any stat captures the tipped pass, some iteration of a 5 man plus/minus is the best thing to capture that activity. That's why the professionals track it, put it on their website (see Pacers.com) and talk about it. It's probably no worse than many other stats....of which almost all are deeply flawed. The fact is, the plus/minus has pluses and minuses...like all stats...;)