PDA

View Full Version : The Phoenix Rises from the Ashes-Pacers Win



owl
01-11-2010, 10:39 PM
Well after a horrible start and fallng behind by more than 20 the Pacers pull one out thanks to a team effort and AJ Price.

Kaufman
01-11-2010, 10:42 PM
hoot hoot!!!
unbelievable watching the score ticker!

judicata
01-11-2010, 10:45 PM
I love win, and really was impressed with Price.

I hate to be negative after a great win, but 31 Threes makes me a little nauseated.

Troy had a great game and grabbed 16 boards! He's going to earn us Hickson playing like that.

owl
01-11-2010, 10:47 PM
I am really starting to like AJ Price's game. He is extremely cool under pressure and just has a sense about the game. He is very strong and shoots the 3 well. The Pacers have at least one point guard for the future.

cchobot
01-11-2010, 10:48 PM
I like his ability to get into the lane. Seems like at some point he may be able to drive and dish to an open shooter or cutter for some easy buckets

graphic-er
01-11-2010, 10:49 PM
Danny must have seen the NBA Defense commercial at half time. He totally shut Bosh down.

Speed
01-11-2010, 10:53 PM
maybe in today's nba, Granger is a Power Forward.

graphic-er
01-11-2010, 10:57 PM
maybe in today's nba, Granger is a Power Forward.

Does make you wonder, he seems to play much better defense at the 4. I think its because at 6-9 its hard for him to play defense on the wing and get around all those screens and picks. For a player his size, strength and smarts, post up defense probably comes natural.

Los Angeles
01-11-2010, 10:59 PM
maybe in today's nba, Granger is a Power Forward.

Every time it's suggested, my face goes sour.

Danny is a fantastic 3. It's not his fault that we don't have a 4 that can guard Bosh.

vnzla81
01-11-2010, 11:00 PM
maybe in today's nba, Granger is a Power Forward.

And maybe Hibbert is a center...;)

Speed
01-11-2010, 11:03 PM
i've been against it all along and Danny said it's really taxing to play a guy who's bigger, so it's not likely the answer, but he sure is effective there.

As for Price, he's clutch. I don't think you can teach that. He was clutch at Uconn, he's clutch now. Good things happen almost everytime he's on the court. Very impressive.

McKeyFan
01-11-2010, 11:03 PM
Granger was the man tonight. I agree that he seemed to have the eye of the tiger tonight. Great defense. Smart decisions with the ball.

AJ price is a breath of fresh air. Several mistakes. Have to expect them. But it's the first time since Tinsley we've seen someone look effortless out there. He's got Tinsley's potential along with a fiery perimeter shot. Streaky, but perhaps he's better down the stretch?

I'm glad for the win, and proud these guys could come back and win. Watson was huge. But I still believe it is a huge strategic error to keep Hibbert and DJones on the bench. It's not winning basketball, although we did pull off a win against a struggling Raptors team tonight. If this crew that won tonight can start playing .500 basketball than I'll be less harsh on JOB. We'll see.

Meanwhile, excellent work by Tyler, great shooting by Murph in the first half, pressure free throws by Dun at the end, and just hard scrappy play like we always hope to see.

One comment: I think he was in street clothes, but I would have liked to see McBob play defense against Bosh.

odeez
01-11-2010, 11:06 PM
Nice win by the team. Danny is still a bit rusty, but he had great game. I would like him to take it to the rim more often. Price is continuing to show promise. Murph, good job on the boards and the early threes.

I would have loved to see Roy out there more, I know Solo was playing well, but Hibbert has to play more.

:buddies:

owl
01-11-2010, 11:11 PM
I think of AJ as the Anti-Tinsley. He kind of looks like and is built like Tinsley but plays a different(team) game.

LoneGranger33
01-11-2010, 11:13 PM
Player of the game? Sonny Weems, for firing up Danny Granger.

As much as I'd like to heap praise on A.J. Price, Earl Watson made some really crucial plays in the 4th quarter to help us win it. Those two had ****ty first halves, but put it together when the game was on the line.

McKeyFan
01-11-2010, 11:16 PM
Yeah, Earl punked Jack like three plays in a row.

McKeyFan
01-11-2010, 11:17 PM
Player of the game? Sonny Weems, for firing up Danny Granger.

Probably something to that.

Justin Tyme
01-11-2010, 11:20 PM
It was a nice come back win. The thing after the game when looking in the box score was the FTA's again Toronto hit more than the Pacers shot. Just too much difference and has been all season.

I thought the Pacers got out rebounded by a large margin but it was just 2 in favor of Toronto.

The win was nice, but the 76'ers won as well against the Hornets. :)

Speed
01-11-2010, 11:22 PM
I also should note Muphy was a weapon on offense and I thought he was good for him, defensively. Sure backhanded, but not meant to be. Murphy is really at the top of his game for what he can do. I wish the Pacers had a team that could utilize his skills and absorb his shortcomings, cuz all of the blame he's got, including me, is situational. It's based on the situation he's in, and not his potential value to a team in the right circumstances. I hope he goes to Cleveland because I think he'll show how important he can be to a good team in the right line up.

I'll not complain about Troy for awhile.

Things I that I find interesting. Roy not playing. D. Jones not playing. Hard to complain after a win, but no Roy at all in the second half? I guess I'm okay with it since before the game Obie said Roy is no longer a guy that won't start due to match ups, however, he also said Roy will get the ball in the low post to exploit his advantage, which did not happen. I'll give this one a pass for the moment, but eventually they have to start letting him get 15 looks a game to just well make the game easier for everyone.

Solo, nice D, nice numbers.

Dunleavy solid, he had zero assists which is strange since assist have been a strength of his in the past, but this year he's way off pace.

Earl is a pro. This means he does what you hope, not going to be a dominant player, not going to be a bonehead. Again sounds backhanded, but he did play well, but you expect him to. I personally would like to hand the keys to AJ in the next month and let Earl back him up, since he likely won't be here next year.

Luther is probably back to the bench and maybe not even playing. He's just cooled off and I'd rather have D Jones or Brandon get any of those minutes.

Love the fire from Danny, love the defense in the 4th. Danny's defense is the biggest reason they won.

Loved Hansbrough'a fire, love that he knocked people around, as always. One time Amir Johnson clobbered him and Amir ended up on the ground getting the worst of it. I know people get tired of the TH love, but you just can't put in a stat what being a physical presence does to the face of a game.

vnzla81
01-11-2010, 11:23 PM
good 4th quarter for the pacers and nice win, first time I get to see AJ for a long period and he looks good maybe pg of the future? Troy Murphy's value is going up ;) and even Dunleavy looked alive today(trade value is going up also;))

Trophy
01-11-2010, 11:23 PM
JOB, play Roy.

Great comeback win overall.

PaceBalls
01-11-2010, 11:27 PM
Yeah, Earl punked Jack like three plays in a row.

Yeah that was great, One of the highlights of the game for me as well. I think I can live with AJ and Earl at the point. I haven't seen the boys that fired up in a while. They were playing some great D there in the 4th, there were still a couple matador moments. But it was much better than I would have expected.

d_c
01-11-2010, 11:42 PM
Solo, nice D, nice numbers.

Dunleavy solid, he had zero assists which is strange since assist have been a strength of his in the past, but this year he's way off pace.

Dunleavy is a career 2.6 apg guy. Sure, he's off his pace this year, but it's not as if this has been a huge strength of his. He's a good passer. He just doesn't make that many that lead to baskets, which is what assists are defined as.

joeyd
01-11-2010, 11:58 PM
It's a win like this that gives me hope that we can still make it back to .500 by year's end.

joeyd
01-11-2010, 11:59 PM
Or at least close to .500.

pianoman
01-12-2010, 12:03 AM
I think that once the Pacers get back to full health, they will be a dangerous team. The second half gave us a glimpse of that. Although the Raps just came off a back 2 back against the celts, they played a tough game. Danny was looking awful until Sonny got him fired up. Maybe Danny needs to get angry before every game, so he can have a great night!

Troy was outstanding tonight. I'd say it was his best game this year.

Tyler had a decent game tonight.

AJ was outstanding. He is the pg of the future.

big props to Solo tonight. He had a decent game!!

Finally, Earl Watson was impressive tonight. I'd love to get him back next year.

Anthem
01-12-2010, 12:26 AM
My favorite part? With the game on the line and the Pacers needing a bucket, Danny Granger took it to the hoop and dunked over (past, really) Bosh instead of jacking a 3. Good stuff.

tadscout
01-12-2010, 12:27 AM
I see a couple of people praising Solo... but is it just me or does he seem like the weakest big man in the NBA? I've never seen him play a game where he doesn't constantly get thrown around like a rag doll.

Tonight Bargnani and even some of their wings were bumping him out of position (defensive, rebounding, etc.)... and on a rebound play were he and Bosh's bodies lightly bumped he went flying out of bounds; I don't blame Bosh for being upset most bigs would be strong enough to hold their ground and the play would've moved on.

To me it wasn't the defensive play of Solo that brought us back, that Roy wasn't able to do.... it was they players around him were finally keeping their guys in front of them and contesting their shots... it was Roy trying to make up for his teammates mistakes that drew the fouls... (Was almost like lets bench Roy for his teammates mistakes.)

I really don't see anything Solo can do that Roy can't besides use a little more speed to run back to his spot after he gets mis lodged from his spot constantly... If they want someone quicker to play behind Roy why not McRoberts, at lest he won't let people throw him around like a rag doll.

I'm glad we won, but O'Brien is really wearing thin with me...

Dr. Awesome
01-12-2010, 12:35 AM
It's a win like this that gives me hope that we can still make it back to .500 by year's end.

0_0

duke dynamite
01-12-2010, 01:02 AM
COME ON DOWN!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x9hs08EteeU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x9hs08EteeU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Naptown_Seth
01-12-2010, 01:29 AM
I need to find a good way to list which teams lead the league in getting behind by 20+ points in games. Not final score, I mean at any point. Gotta think the Pacers are way, way up that list. Even when they win they go down by 20.



Seems like a lot of people are seeing why I wanted Price to play and love him as a draft pick. Big fan and he's not letting me down. I love playmakers at any position, guys that just are always seeing the game and finding ways to make an impact.

MagicRat
01-12-2010, 01:39 AM
It's not winning basketball, although we did pull off a win against a struggling Raptors team tonight.

Come on, now. Just because the Pacers won without "The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak *" lineup it doesn't automatically mean the other team is struggling.

The Raptors had won 8 of 10 coming into the game, with both losses to Boston. (They were on the 2nd of a back-to-back, though)......

pwee31
01-12-2010, 02:22 AM
Tonight was one of the most enjoyable games of the season to watch. It started off ugly early, but the team stuck with it, chipped away and actually won the game.

Granger went to the basket and with a swagger after the tech

Troy had the usual double double

Dunleavy hit a big 3 and clutch free throws

Tyler played hard.. with emotion and provided some hustle despite the free throw struggle

Solo chipped in well off the bench

Watson hit some BIG shots and had a couple really nice momentum changing defense plays.

Aj Price owned Calderon and played with a swagger in the 2nd half (I really like our rookies a lot)

Rush... had a nice block on Jack... hey we won the game!

Hope Roy can get more minutes and stay out of foul trouble Wednesday.

I personally think Head should go back to the bench. He doesn't seem as effective with Murphy and Granger in the lineup. I wouldn't mind him coming off the bench for an offensive spark, but the way Dahntay was cheering tonight and involved in the game, despite lack of minutes.. really makes me pull or the guy and hope he can find the floor again soon. Perhaps in a starting role like he had in Denver, with Dunleavy being our less athletic JR Smith. haha

Nice win... looking forward to Wednesday to see how the team responds

IndySDExport
01-12-2010, 03:39 AM
Can anyone imagine what this team would look like if they actually played a full 4 quarters.

If we can come back strong from 23 down, what would happen if we played from the outset. I think the 2nd half was the first time I've seen us play some D since the streak that shall not be named.

maragin
01-12-2010, 04:01 AM
Can anyone imagine what this team would look like if they actually played a full 4 quarters.

Some other city's team.

IndyProdigy
01-12-2010, 04:03 AM
Every time it's suggested, my face goes sour.

Danny is a fantastic 3. It's not his fault that we don't have a 4 that can guard Bosh.

nobody has a 4 that can ACTUALLY guard bosh.

pacersgroningen
01-12-2010, 07:12 AM
As much as I loved the W, I must admit I was really worried during the first half. But what really bothered me were JOB's post-game comments, saying that we're 8-3 with small ball, DG at the 4, Matador Defense at the 5 and that we'll be seeing a lot more of it the upcoming games. Ugh.

D-BONE
01-12-2010, 07:34 AM
I said this in the game thread, but I'll repeat. It's not popular here and it's not ideal, but DG is arguably the best player we can currently run at the 4. He probably matches up well to decently against about 2/3 of the PFs in the league.

There are some obvious size exceptions that just wouldn't allow it. But if you think in terms of all around play and game impact, we just don't have another PF candidate that's even close. DG's defense ranges from excellent to adequate in the 2/3 feasible matchups and he would almost universally create heavy mismatches in our favor on offense.

I don't think we should be running him out as the starter at PF, nor do I think he should be logging big minutes there. However, I am open to him seeing some stints at 4 when reasonably applicable. The small lineup was definitely the most effective last night. The infamous 5-game streak had a lot of small ball and/or RH surrounded by a remainder small ball cast.

Mr_Smith
01-12-2010, 08:45 AM
Great comeback win by the pacers. This is a perfect opportunity to run off 4 straight.

DGPR
01-12-2010, 09:07 AM
If Price is playing this well now then I can't wait to see how he will play with 2-3 years of experience under his belt. I'm not saying he's playing outstanding ball but when he learns to cut his mistakes then I think he will be a very solid pg.

Speed
01-12-2010, 09:29 AM
I said this in the game thread, but I'll repeat. It's not popular here and it's not ideal, but DG is arguably the best player we can currently run at the 4. He probably matches up well to decently against about 2/3 of the PFs in the league.

There are some obvious size exceptions that just wouldn't allow it. But if you think in terms of all around play and game impact, we just don't have another PF candidate that's even close. DG's defense ranges from excellent to adequate in the 2/3 feasible matchups and he would almost universally create heavy mismatches in our favor on offense.

I don't think we should be running him out as the starter at PF, nor do I think he should be logging big minutes there. However, I am open to him seeing some stints at 4 when reasonably applicable. The small lineup was definitely the most effective last night. The infamous 5-game streak had a lot of small ball and/or RH surrounded by a remainder small ball cast.

I agree. I think it's something that needs addressed that Danny is the teams best PF defender.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 09:35 AM
Come on, now. Just because the Pacers won without "The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak * The Five Game Win Streak *" lineup it doesn't automatically mean the other team is struggling.

The Raptors had won 8 of 10 coming into the game, with both losses to Boston. (They were on the 2nd of a back-to-back, though)......

By saying they were a "struggling team," I didn't mean their recent w-l record. I meant that they shot 39.5% fgp. If they had shot mediocre to bad instead of terrible, we lose this game.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 09:38 AM
Hope Roy can get more minutes and stay out of foul trouble Wednesday.

Roy had two fouls. He was never in foul trouble.

dohman
01-12-2010, 09:47 AM
Weird how hibbert can go from scoring from 25 ppg and playing big minutes to bench time when troy comes back.

He went from scoring big points on dwight howard dpoy to not playing. He is one of the big time future centers of the nba and here we are messing with his head.

I didnt get to watch the game because of work but I was just catching up on some of the highlights and wow AJ price was playing and making passed like he was in the league for years.

The way he was cutting and dishing was making me think I was watching chris paul out there. Seriously. I am so glad something good is coming out of all the losing and his name is AJ Price.

able
01-12-2010, 09:57 AM
Seriously. I am so glad something good is coming out of all the losing and his name is AJ Price.


What you so happy about ??

SO he can tell McBob and Roy to move over and make space on that there bench ???

pwee31
01-12-2010, 09:59 AM
Roy had two fouls. He was never in foul trouble.

It was when he got those 2 fouls 5 minutes into the game. Once he was benched, I think he entered the game once, and it wasn't for very long

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 10:04 AM
It was when he got those 2 fouls 5 minutes into the game. Once he was benched, I think he entered the game once, and it wasn't for very long

He finished the game with two fouls. He's allowed six. He was never in foul trouble.

dohman
01-12-2010, 10:05 AM
What you so happy about ??

SO he can tell McBob and Roy to move over and make space on that there bench ???


That AJ is developing, that seth was right and we have a really good rookie pg. Did you not see the game or the highlights? He was doing things we could only wish tj ford would do or could do.

Bball
01-12-2010, 10:09 AM
He finished the game with two fouls. He's allowed six. He was never in foul trouble.

Silly Mckey Fan...

That is because O'Brien brilliantly protected from getting into foul trouble.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 10:12 AM
When Roy gets two early fouls, it solves a lot of issues for O'Brien.

Bball
01-12-2010, 10:18 AM
That AJ is developing, that seth was right and we have a really good rookie pg. Did you not see the game or the highlights? He was doing things we could only wish tj ford would do or could do.

I think Able was saying he has no confidence that O'Brien won't bench him.

...Probably as soon as he misses a couple of 3's in a row and O'Brien decides we need a better shooter in there...

Unclebuck
01-12-2010, 10:21 AM
I think Able was saying he has no confidence that O'Brien won't bench him.

...Probably as soon as he misses a couple of 3's in a row and O'Brien decides we need a better shooter in there...

he won't bench him because of shooting, he's our best shooting point guard - even better than Diener. I think O'Brien was looking for a way to get Price on the floor for a few weeks, and benching Ford I'm sure wasn't easy, so I doubt he is going to go back on that decision anytime soon

Anthem
01-12-2010, 10:29 AM
I agree. I think it's something that needs addressed that Danny is the teams best PF defender.
Disagree. I'd put Foster first no question, and I think McBob does well there. I'd even like to see Solo get some minutes next to Hibbert, but I don't see that happening with our current coach.

graphic-er
01-12-2010, 10:41 AM
Well I just hope last night was like a revelation for Danny. I'd honestly start having him guard the 4 position at the end of games. It saves his legs, lets him rely on this core strength that he works hard on in the off season.

Unclebuck
01-12-2010, 10:51 AM
The second half and the comeback in general had nothing to do with systems of offense or defense, had nothing to do with three point shooting, it had everything to do with effort, tenacity, enthusiasm and a will to win the game. (give me those intangible qualities and a team at the very least will maximize its talent and that IMO is all that we can ask)

I hesitate to bring this up, but let me do this in a question - was this the 5 game winning streak mantality. No matter, I liked the second half last night - whatever it is or whatever you want to call it, I want to see more of it - give me a scrappy team anyday. Give me a scrappy team, and I don;t care what system they run offensively or defensively

DgR
01-12-2010, 10:52 AM
I'm Happy we won and all, but I still can't get too excited right now. we played 2 good games in about 12. Anyone not named Granger is terribly inconsistent and can hardly be counted on for a long stretch. This team is still a mess.
The thing we need most is a legitimate talent from this year's draft to pair up with Granger. Even if we string a few wins together every now and then, we'll still be out of the playoffs come season end. We're definitely not one of the best 8 teams in the East. Plus, a legitimate talent from the 2010 draft is far more likely to put asses in seats at Conseco next year than an embarrassing sweep in the first round of the PO, and certainly more than a respectable 9th spot in the East. Sorry for the gloominess...

BillS
01-12-2010, 11:03 AM
The Raptors' shooting woes in the second half were not just due to a hot-shooting team (something well in the 50% range in the first half) suddenly deciding to stink it up. The Pacers' defense in the second half really did step up more than just a single notch, shots were challenged and the lane was closed off, the Raps were forced to use more clock to get decent looks and wouldn't have gotten as many FGAs if we had been a little stronger on the glass.

From what I saw, Roy was benched because he wasn't able to move well enough to help defend on drives into the lane. Yes, I know, the center isn't supposed to be the only one down responsible for those, but no one in the first half was doing any good whatsoever on the pick and roll or on any plays where a screen was set. If not in direct quote JOB has said in subtext that a flaw in one area means you have to be a clear asset in another (in this case offense) to stay on the floor. Roy was NOT getting his shots even when they could get the ball to him - he was being pushed out of position and turned away from his preferred angle.

It seemed pretty obvious to me that in this particular case the lineup defending in the second half was the correct lineup against the Raptors. I watched Troy and, while he isn't the strongest defender, his defense was good enough to disrupt plays and even get a steal, while his offense was pretty crucial to the comeback. I understand what everyone says about JOB's consistency and his tendency to say one thing and then turn around and do another, but a coach also needs to have the flexibility to adjust the game based on what he is seeing on the floor.

And please don't bring up examples from the Minnesota or OKC games, I was in a sports-free zone all weekend and did not see them, so I would have no comment or response.

dohman
01-12-2010, 11:09 AM
I have never said anything negative about JOB but the whole hibbert not being able to get his shot is crap. He took 4 shots when he has been taking 15. He would of found his rythm. Playing in the post is a art and all it takes is one or two baskets to make yourself think your unstoppable. Once you start thinking that way it changes the whole game. I just wish he would commit to roy. Make him foul out instead of sitting him down with 2 fouls.

BQQ
01-12-2010, 11:16 AM
please take a look at this stats when Danny is playing at 4

http://www.82games.com/0910/09IND9.HTM#bypos

this is huge difference especially in offense

Unclebuck
01-12-2010, 11:27 AM
One thing I don't understand. So many of you want the Pacers to play their best defenders and yet you also want the Pacers to play Roy. IMO I think he is one of our worst defenders, so why should we play him. Do you think his offense will make up for his defense (and yet you never suggest that when it comes to Troy or even Mike) or do you not agree with me that Roy is a liability defensively. it has to be one or the other I would guess

Bball
01-12-2010, 11:35 AM
I think Roy's defense is alright but not when paired with Murphy...

Trader Joe
01-12-2010, 11:37 AM
Danny is gonna put up about 40 points the next time he shoots the ball well...something has been off with him offensively the entire year and I think that's been the real reason for his struggles from the small forward position. Yes, Danny can play the 4, but he's a 3, and if this team is ever really competing again that is the position we should hope we are playing him in.

Trader Joe
01-12-2010, 11:38 AM
I think Roy's defense is alright but not when paired with Murphy...

Ditto.

They amplify each other's weaknesses on defense to a point where both of them just look absolutely terrible. They're a match made in hell at this point in their careers. I think with another year of experience under Roy's belt we could see him and Murphy start to look really good together offensively, but I don't think they'll ever be compatible defensively.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 11:43 AM
The second half and the comeback in general had nothing to do with systems of offense or defense, had nothing to do with three point shooting, it had everything to do with effort, tenacity, enthusiasm and a will to win the game. (give me those intangible qualities and a team at the very least will maximize its talent and that IMO is all that we can ask)

I hesitate to bring this up, but let me do this in a question - was this the 5 game winning streak mantality. No matter, I liked the second half last night - whatever it is or whatever you want to call it, I want to see more of it - give me a scrappy team anyday. Give me a scrappy team, and I don;t care what system they run offensively or defensively

I think you are on to something.

Now, I believe the reason the streak players had that mentality was because they understood the tactic and philosophy they were playing. They had hope that their method would lead to victories if they scrapped and hustled. And they did.

Last night's team hustled because Danny willed them there. That's a huge positive for Danny's leadership. I don't think you'll see this repeated regularly because I don't think O'Brien knows what the philosophy is for this particular squad, or if its perimeter scoring than it will fail out of the gate.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 11:45 AM
One thing I don't understand. So many of you want the Pacers to play their best defenders and yet you also want the Pacers to play Roy. IMO I think he is one of our worst defenders, so why should we play him. Do you think his offense will make up for his defense (and yet you never suggest that when it comes to Troy or even Mike) or do you not agree with me that Roy is a liability defensively. it has to be one or the other I would guess

We want solid, fundamental basketball that relies on traditional methods. Defense and low post.

Roy is low post. Dahntay is defense.

Roy can be effective on defense when surrounded by other good defensive players.

Roy is our best low post option. The only other one is Tyler.

Brad8888
01-12-2010, 11:55 AM
One thing I don't understand. So many of you want the Pacers to play their best defenders and yet you also want the Pacers to play Roy. IMO I think he is one of our worst defenders, so why should we play him. Do you think his offense will make up for his defense (and yet you never suggest that when it comes to Troy or even Mike) or do you not agree with me that Roy is a liability defensively. it has to be one or the other I would guess

Actually, Roy is a liability defensively at this point in his young career. The only way to have him stop being a liability defensively is to allow him the minutes on the floor to develop his defense through trial and error in that we don't have anyone on staff who can teach him enough defensive (or offensive for that matter) skills in practices, or to have him practice against to properly hone his skills as a center. Even the healthy JO needed us to bring in someone to work with him to turn him into a defender instead of just a shot blocker (I believe we brought in Bill Russell if I am not mistaken, and he worked with JO about footwork and positioning to reduce fouls, as well as being strategic with when and where to block the ball, and how to direct the ball once he blocked it. Roy does not have, and probably will not have, that luxury).

So, it has nothing to do with his offense making up for his defense like Troy does. When that happens, and it should with more frequency if and when he plays more, the offensive explosions are very welcome gravy. It has everything to do with using this season for what it should be for, which is player development and determining what the team needs to do when we have the huge amount of money to play with, while possibly being more competitive as the season goes along due to our young guys progressing enough to be relied on for meaningful minutes.

JohnnyBGoode
01-12-2010, 12:06 PM
I think Roy's defense is alright but not when paired with Murphy...

Good centers don't need a good defender at the pf spot. Roy will not suddenly transform into a great defender no matter who is on the floor.

Infinite MAN_force
01-12-2010, 12:09 PM
It was nice to see Danny looking like his old self again, especially driving to the hoop. Fun second half.

However, I am not happy about Roy being benched. This was a weird matchup though, if you are going to play Troy at center, there probably isn't a much better matchup for him than Barganani... or a much worse one for Roy. It is so important to the future development of this team that Troy get traded, Obrien will use any excuse to run to his small ball three point shooting game and the Raptors are just the sort of team he can get away with it against.

As far as Danny playing the 4 goes I don't really have a problem with that, it is true that we have been at our most effective with him playing the 4. He defends the spot pretty well and creates terrible mismatches going the other way. I want to see more Roy at the 5 with Danny at the 4, which was the "win streak" lineup of course, and pretty effective.

Unclebuck
01-12-2010, 12:20 PM
I see Roy a lot like Rik Smits defensively (really poor from day one and throughout their whole careers) Sure Rik got a little bit better as he got more experienced, but he still got into foul trouble early and often and he still was abused on pick and rolls. Dale davis saved Rik though and the pacers if they intend to have Roy be the center of the future then they need to get him a Dale Davis. Not sure if Tyler could ever be that player who can help Roy defensively

Infinite MAN_force
01-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Good centers don't need a good defender at the pf spot. Roy will not suddenly transform into a great defender no matter who is on the floor.

Roy is a very good defender of big centers, just ask Dwight Howard. He struggles against quicker bigs, having him try to gaurd Bosh or Bargnani is asking a lot.

You don't "transform" Hibbert into a great defender by surrounding him with better ones, but you do help to "hide" him to an extent. If you can stop dribble penetration you prevent him getting put in position to foul.. And if he is matched up with a quicker guy, surrounding Roy with quicker footed players allows them to help and retain the ability to recover quickly. This is why the defense is much more effective when Hibbert plays next to Granger or Mcroberts. It tends to look horrid when he plays next to Murphy.

Roy is the rare sort of big man with the kind of post game you can center an entire offense around. It is worthwhile to try to put him in a better position to succeed defensively because he can bring so much to your offensive game by running the ball through him in the post because of his scoring AND passing. Troy Murphy is a pretty much a one dimensional jump shooter, a very good one, but he is what he is. You don't run an offense through Troy Murphy. This is why I think Roy is the kind of player worth hiding, and Troy is not. Troy should be a bench player anyway.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2010, 12:37 PM
[QUOTE=Unclebuck;943496]

effort, tenacity, enthusiasm and a will to win the game. (give me those intangible qualities and a team at the very least will maximize its talent and that IMO is all that we can ask)

I want to see more of it - give me a scrappy team anyday. QUOTE]


This is what I want, whether the win or lose. If they had lost this game tonight I wouldn't have been upset.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2010, 12:48 PM
Yes, Danny can play the 4, but he's a 3,


EXACTLY! Why is it fans constantly want to change the natural position of a player to play another position? In the beginning, they wanted to make Granger into a SG. Leave well enough alone.

Speed
01-12-2010, 01:07 PM
What Brad said, if Roy was 32 and defending like he does I probably wouldn't want him to play at all. Doesn't mean a hardnosed defensive team isn't what I call for, just means Roy is young a very good low post scorer who gets a chance to learn defensively, in my book.

Problem is that Obie has to do what he said he would. If Roy is going to learn on the fly, let him exploit the other end so it's not so much of a negative.

As for the other positions, I do prefer a really good defensive team and player.

With Rik, he was protected by Dale, but he also got to do what he does well when he was in there, which was score.

I also think Roy does show as being a better defender against Centers than Rik, just not today's NBA Power Forward posing as a Center.

As for last night, why not put Roy back in, call his number EVERY time down until Bosh stopped him. They already adjusted to having Bosh guard him vs. Bargnani.

Having a low post scorer, just makes it easier on everybody. And it works with Roy for the Pacers. Almost everytime he's had the chance to be a focal point there, he produces.

So you live with some poor defensive possessions, but you let Roy get some baskets that don't make Granger spend early energy scoring. Then maybe Granger has more in the tank when it's crunch time, instead of carrying the team as much. Exactly like what they used to do with Smits.

Just my opinion, I know Roy can be Epic bad at times on defense, but he's not always awful and he's shown the ability to improve a bunch in just a year and a half. Last year, he couldn't even stay in a game.

Bball
01-12-2010, 01:09 PM
Good centers don't need a good defender at the pf spot. Roy will not suddenly transform into a great defender no matter who is on the floor.

Good centers can be at least "OK" defensively just by taking up space with their size.

But the team defense needs to allow for playing with a real center at the center position, not a PF playing center where he might be able to get by on a little more speed or athleticism to make up for not being a true (read: traditional) center.

I don't think it's fair to compare Hibbert with Smits. I think Hibbert can be much more physical and imposing than Smits ever thought about being, whether paired with a Dale Davis or not.

Of course if you pair ANYONE on the frontline with a Dale Davis it will improve your frontline defensively... I think that should go without saying.

Speed
01-12-2010, 01:11 PM
EXACTLY! Why is it fans constantly want to change the natural position of a player to play another position? In the beginning, they wanted to make Granger into a SG. Leave well enough alone.

Because his shut down defense on Bosh (a 4) last night was one of the main reasons they won.

In general though, 4s can't guard him and he can guard most 4s. Danny doesn't get cheap fouls guarding 4s cuz he's an allstar and can be physical without getting called for a foul, where Solo and McBob would get many cheap fouls.

Foster's at least an argument as a better defender at the 4, but he's not available.

I'd guess if McBob/Solo would have guarded Bosh in the 4th yesterday, he would have gotten 8 to 10 foul shots or just scored. Danny fouled him once, stole the ball twice, and blocked his shot once, almost stole it and Watson fouled him, and made him give the ball up or denied him the rest of the time (just from memory). Foster probably would have been the guy to guard him, if available, but honestly I could not think it would have been any better than what Danny did.

Lastly, Murphy can't guard the Bosh's, failure in the construction of the team, but Danny can.

So playing Danny is more of a necessity in many situations than a preference, imo.

This coming from a guy who does NOT want to play small ball, too.

OakMoses
01-12-2010, 01:39 PM
A few thoughts after reading this thread.

1. We do have a PF who can defend Bosh. His name's Jeff Foster.

2. I hate to harp on this every game, especially after he played well, but what does Solomon Jones do that McRoberts does not do as well or better?

3. Following up in the beating on guys who played well department, at what point do we admit that Troy is terrible in the 4th quarter and probably shouldn't be on the court. If anyone can point out an average 4th quarter that Troy has played all season, I'll be very surprised. I don't know if he's playing too many minutes or if he's just too easy to defend, but he disappears in the 4th quarter like no one I've ever seen.

3b) If anyone knows of a website that lists player stats by quarter, I'd love to look at it. I'd like to do a little study on when Troy scores, but getting all the data from play-by-plays is too cumbersome to be worthwhile.

4) I love AJ Price. Even when he screws up, I love him. Chris and Quinn mentioned a quote from AJ several times last night that seems to ring true: "I don't feel like a rookie, I've been playing basketball my entire life. I'm just doing it in a different league now." Everybody likes to talk about players who play with a "chip on their shoulder". That's all fine and good, but I think there's more to be said for a guy who feels like they can play in this league and just goes out and takes care of business. Someone earlier used the term effortless, that's one of my favorite things about Price. He never looks like he's trying too hard. He's just playing ball.

5. I know it's another thread, but in response to the "Who would you bench for Dahntay?" question, my answer is Luther Head and Troy Murphy.

6. I'm fine with Hibbert not being a focal piece due to matchups. However, I'd love to see Hibbert on the floor every second that Nesterovic is on the floor. If you're going to look at him as a matchup guy, then you have to give him a chance in a matchup where he can succeed.

7. Unclebuck is right. Hibbert is not a good defender right now. However, if you stick him in a lineup with 4 average to above average defenders who are not athletically outmatched and anchor him to the basket, he does just fine.

8. Statistically it doesn't look like it, but this may have been Danny's best game of the year.

9. Watson was fantastic.

10. One thing I wonder about Watson is if he becomes a trading chip at the deadline. He's got a reasonably cheap expiring contract. It's actually fairly equivalent to a rookie contract, which might be very convenient for trade purposes. if there's a PG injury or a contender that decides they need a solid 20 mpg backup PG, I could see Watson having some real value.

11. I like winning. It's way more fun that losing.

12. Will Roy, Troy, and Danny ever all have good games in the same game?

13. Rush missed his shots, but he played some very good defense.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2010, 01:44 PM
Because his shut down defense on Bosh (a 4) last night was one of the main reasons they won.

In general though, 4s can't guard him and he can guard most 4s. Danny doesn't get cheap fouls guarding 4s cuz he's an allstar and can be physical without getting called for a foul, where Solo and McBob would get many cheap fouls.

Foster's at least an argument as a better defender at the 4, but he's not available.

I'd guess if McBob/Solo would have guarded Bosh in the 4th yesterday, he would have gotten 8 to 10 foul shots or just scored. Danny fouled him once, stole the ball twice, and blocked his shot once, almost stole it and Watson fouled him, and made him give the ball up or denied him the rest of the time (just from memory). Foster probably would have been the guy to guard him, if available, but honestly I could not think it would have been any better than what Danny did.

Lastly, Murphy can't guard the Bosh's, failure in the construction of the team, but Danny can.

So playing Danny is more of a necessity in many situations than a preference, imo.

This coming from a guy who does NOT want to play small ball, too.


NEVER did I say that Granger shouldn't play the 4 when there is an advantage to exploit, but NOT on a full time basis as some seem to want. His natural position is SF.

Speed
01-12-2010, 03:08 PM
From Bruno's chat during last nights game, he was asked about coach or player changes:

"
Bruno:
Coaching change isn't on the table so it's not even up for discussion. Player changes are necessary and on the way. "

docpaul
01-12-2010, 03:10 PM
please take a look at this stats when Danny is playing at 4

http://www.82games.com/0910/09IND9.HTM#bypos

this is huge difference especially in offense


So these are pretty impressive data:

Top Five-Man Floor Units
<table border="0" width="640" cellspacing="1" bgcolor="#cccccc"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td><center>#</center></td> <td><center>Unit</center></td> <td><center>Min</center></td> <td><center>Off</center></td> <td><center>Def</center></td> <td><center>+/-</center></td> <td><center>W</center></td> <td><center>L</center></td> <td><center>Win%</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 1 </center></td> <td> Ford-Rush-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert</td> <td align="right"> 86.9 </td> <td align="right">1.10 </td> <td align="right">0.95 </td> <td align="right"> +23 </td> <td align="right"> 6 </td> <td align="right"> 2 </td> <td><center>75.0</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center> 2 </center></td> <td> Watson-Rush-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert</td> <td align="right"> 46.4 </td> <td align="right">1.27 </td> <td align="right">0.93 </td> <td align="right"> +39 </td> <td align="right"> 5 </td> <td align="right"> 2 </td> <td><center>71.4</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 3 </center></td> <td> Ford-Rush-Granger-Murphy-Hibbert</td> <td align="right"> 43.5 </td> <td align="right">0.78 </td> <td align="right">1.16 </td> <td align="right"> -38 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td align="right"> 6 </td> <td><center>14.2</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center> 4 </center></td> <td> Ford-D.Jones-Granger-Murphy-Foster</td> <td align="right"> 34.7 </td> <td align="right">0.98 </td> <td align="right">1.12 </td> <td align="right"> -10 </td> <td align="right"> 4 </td> <td align="right"> 4 </td> <td><center>50.0</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 5 </center></td> <td> Ford-D.Jones-Granger-Murphy-Hibbert</td> <td align="right"> 28.5 </td> <td align="right">0.83 </td> <td align="right">1.39 </td> <td align="right"> -35 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td align="right"> 6 </td> <td><center>14.2</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center> 6 </center></td> <td> Ford-Watson-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert</td> <td align="right"> 21.7 </td> <td align="right">1.01 </td> <td align="right">1.21 </td> <td align="right"> -7 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td><center>50.0</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 7 </center></td> <td> Ford-Rush-Granger-Murphy-Foster</td> <td align="right"> 19.0 </td> <td align="right">1.01 </td> <td align="right">1.05 </td> <td align="right"> +0 </td> <td align="right"> 2 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td><center>66.6</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center> 8 </center></td> <td> Ford-Rush-Granger-Murphy-S.Jones</td> <td align="right"> 17.4 </td> <td align="right">0.89 </td> <td align="right">1.25 </td> <td align="right"> -14 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td align="right"> 5 </td> <td><center>16.6</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 9 </center></td> <td> Watson-Head-D.Jones-Granger-S.Jones</td> <td align="right"> 13.9 </td> <td align="right">1.54 </td> <td align="right">1.20 </td> <td align="right"> +6 </td> <td align="right"> 4 </td> <td align="right"> 2 </td> <td><center>66.6</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center> 10 </center></td> <td> Watson-Head-Granger-Hansbrough-S.Jones</td> <td align="right"> 12.1 </td> <td align="right">1.10 </td> <td align="right">1.29 </td> <td align="right"> -3 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td align="right"> 1 </td> <td><center>50.0</center></td></tr></tbody></table>

gummy
01-12-2010, 03:12 PM
A few thoughts after reading this thread.

3. Following up in the beating on guys who played well department, at what point do we admit that Troy is terrible in the 4th quarter and probably shouldn't be on the court. If anyone can point out an average 4th quarter that Troy has played all season, I'll be very surprised. I don't know if he's playing too many minutes or if he's just too easy to defend, but he disappears in the 4th quarter like no one I've ever seen.

3b) If anyone knows of a website that lists player stats by quarter, I'd love to look at it. I'd like to do a little study on when Troy scores, but getting all the data from play-by-plays is too cumbersome to be worthwhile.


It certainly seemed that way to me, and there is support for this argument in past years. However, the numbers do no bear it out this year. See:

http://pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=942006&postcount=32

Bball
01-12-2010, 03:21 PM
From Bruno's chat during last nights game, he was asked about coach or player changes:

"
Bruno:
Coaching change isn't on the table so it's not even up for discussion. Player changes are necessary and on the way. "

I hope he meant to say:

Coaching change isn't on the table until after the season so it's not even up for discussion.

Otherwise it's time to move on and forget Pacer basketball for a while. It's going nowhere.... nowhere without a Mayflower moving van anyway.

count55
01-12-2010, 03:23 PM
6. I'm fine with Hibbert not being a focal piece due to matchups. However, I'd love to see Hibbert on the floor every second that Nesterovic is on the floor. If you're going to look at him as a matchup guy, then you have to give him a chance in a matchup where he can succeed.

Nesterovic absolutely destroyed Hibbert in both games this season. I mean destroyed.

Hell, the reason we didn't play him in the second half last night was because Rasho refused to give him back to us until we gave him two cartons of Pall Malls.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 03:48 PM
From Bruno's chat during last nights game, he was asked about coach or player changes:

"
Bruno:
Coaching change isn't on the table so it's not even up for discussion. Player changes are necessary and on the way. "

I was going to hit Thanks, but instead I'll say No Thanks.

docpaul
01-12-2010, 04:20 PM
Fun images from a Raptor fan's perspective... pretty well informed, I'd say:

http://raptorsrepublic.com/2010/01/12/raptors-flipbook-vs-pacers/

http://raptorsrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pacers2.jpg

http://raptorsrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pacers6.jpg

http://raptorsrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pacers8.jpg

http://raptorsrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pacers9.jpg

Heh.

tadscout
01-12-2010, 05:45 PM
I see a couple of people praising Solo... but is it just me or does he seem like the weakest big man in the NBA? I've never seen him play a game where he doesn't constantly get thrown around like a rag doll.

Tonight Bargnani and even some of their wings were bumping him out of position (defensive, rebounding, etc.)... and on a rebound play were he and Bosh's bodies lightly bumped he went flying out of bounds; I don't blame Bosh for being upset most bigs would be strong enough to hold their ground and the play would've moved on.

To me it wasn't the defensive play of Solo that brought us back, that Roy wasn't able to do.... it was they players around him were finally keeping their guys in front of them and contesting their shots... it was Roy trying to make up for his teammates mistakes that drew the fouls... (Was almost like lets bench Roy for his teammates mistakes.)

I really don't see anything Solo can do that Roy can't besides use a little more speed to run back to his spot after he gets mis lodged from his spot constantly... If they want someone quicker to play behind Roy why not McRoberts, at lest he won't let people throw him around like a rag doll.

I'm glad we won, but O'Brien is really wearing thin with me...

I hate to do this but seem like it got 0 attention but went along with the argument w/ the our big man D argument going on....

All I have to say is I'd rather have Roy out there than Solo b/c at least he is a presence and not so easily pushed around like a rag doll... if the players around Roy can learn to limit their mistakes, I'd bet yo you'd see a huge decline in Roy's fouls... and we'd be a much much better Defensive team.

OakMoses
01-12-2010, 07:34 PM
From Bruno's chat during last nights game, he was asked about coach or player changes:

"
Bruno:
Coaching change isn't on the table so it's not even up for discussion. Player changes are necessary and on the way. "

I'm really surprised this hasn't gotten more discussion.

Isn't the general thinking that Bruno is a shill for management? The interpretation being that if he says player changes are on the way that TPTB are quite sure they're going to be able to make some moves in the next month.

Hicks
01-12-2010, 07:48 PM
I'm really surprised this hasn't gotten more discussion.

Isn't the general thinking that Bruno is a shill for management? The interpretation being that if he says player changes are on the way that TPTB are quite sure they're going to be able to make some moves in the next month.

Probably right.

tadscout
01-12-2010, 07:55 PM
I'm really surprised this hasn't gotten more discussion.

Isn't the general thinking that Bruno is a shill for management? The interpretation being that if he says player changes are on the way that TPTB are quite sure they're going to be able to make some moves in the next month.

My guess is they feel pretty confident in being able to move Murph and/or Foster... there seems to be allot of need for bigs amongst the contenders...

I just hope if the Cavs deal happens the sweetener we get is their 2011 1st rounder (be an awesome pick if Lebron jets this summer...).

DaveP63
01-12-2010, 08:39 PM
I'm really surprised this hasn't gotten more discussion.

Isn't the general thinking that Bruno is a shill for management? The interpretation being that if he says player changes are on the way that TPTB are quite sure they're going to be able to make some moves in the next month.

I believe he is in the employ of Pacers Sports and Entertainment...So...Logically, he may not be full of :bs:, but right on the money.

D-BONE
01-12-2010, 10:10 PM
NEVER did I say that Granger shouldn't play the 4 when there is an advantage to exploit, but NOT on a full time basis as some seem to want. His natural position is SF.

Well, if you go back to my post it's clear that I do not advocate him anywhere near full time. So maybe quoting whoever you are attributing this full time basis assertion to would help clear up the confusion. Because I don't disagree with you and Speed doesn't disagree with you.

D-BONE
01-12-2010, 10:20 PM
I will add that, while I recognize that Jeff is one of our best big defenders, I'm not sure even he could have defended Bosh as well for a short momentum changing defensive stint. An available Jeff definitely gets plenty of cracks at Bosh. Maybe even ends the game on him more than 50% of the time.

But, honestly, that may have been the best D I've seen in DG's career given the caliber of his assignment and the way he imposed himself on the outcome on that side of the ball. Superb! And he was into it. I mean, it's been a while since I've been that impressed by an individual defensive effort by a Pacers' player. And this coming from a guy who's been underwhelmed by his D this year. I'd love to see that more often from him.