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View Full Version : Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season



Trophy
01-11-2010, 02:09 PM
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/steve_aschburner/01/11/pacers.granger/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2


Larry Bird, Indiana Pacers president, wasn't happy with his team's performance the other night in Minneapolis -- "Can you believe all the 3-pointers at the end?" he grumbled on his way out of Target Center -- and neither were the Pacers' coaches or players.

In fact, the visiting locker room Friday might have set some sort of record for downcast after what, after all, was just another regular-season loss in early January.

You'd have thought it was the wrong end of a Game 7: Almost all the players were seated at their dressing stalls, grim dead-ahead looks on their faces, unless they were staring blankly at the floor or covering up in frustration with a hand or two to the forehead. Even inactive guys like Jeff Foster and Travis Diener were sitting stone-faced in their street clothes at least 15 minutes after the final horn of their 116-109 loss to the Timberwolves.

"Do they take every loss this hard?" I asked a Pacers insider. "Oh yeah," he said. "When they win, it's like they've won a playoff game. When they lose, it's like this."

Rough way to go through a schedule of 82.

Even the good news of the night, in big-picture terms, didn't lighten the mood. Forward Danny Granger, the Pacers' best player, leading scorer and lone All-Star a year ago, had returned unexpectedly from a layoff of 16 games caused by a torn plantar fascia in his right foot.

The fifth-year pro from the University of New Mexico had suffered the injury Dec. 5 and figured to be out for another two weeks, until two practices produced little soreness. Coach Jim O'Brien stuck him in the starting lineup and got 19 points, six rebounds and four fouls in more than 31 minutes. Power forward Troy Murphy was back, too, returning from a four-game absence (sprained left ankle) to play 30 minutes.

Based on the outcome, though, and some late unraveling, there wasn't much to celebrate. The Pacers' lack of aggressiveness was glaring, red-flagged by their rebounding and free-throw deficits; Minnesota beat them 56-36 on the boards and shot 45 free throws to Indiana's 17. Murphy caught the Wolves unaware, hitting five 3-pointers and scoring 19 points in the first half but had two points the rest of the night.

Granger, who had been sidelined longer, looked even more tentative, preferring to launch from the arc rather than work his way in. He hit three of 10 from out there, including one that got the Pacers within 98-97 with 7:07 left. Yet instead of dialing up the pressure on Minnesota's defense, they let up as Granger missed his next four shots, two of them early in the clock. Indiana slipped behind by six, then nine.

"We didn't think they would shoot the way they did, coming off [the injuries]," Minnesota's Ryan Gomes said. "Granger came in shooting threes like he didn't miss any games, and Murphy the same way. Those guys are capable of lighting it up -- that's the way [the Pacers] play. They take open shots, quick shots in transition. Toward the end of the game, though, I think their legs got a little heavy and they weren't able to make those shots."

Down the hall, at his corner locker, Granger sat looking forlorn, ice bags on his knees, both feet submerged in an icy bath. "It's not all there yet," he said. "My legs weren't all there, but I guess that's expected. It will take at least a few games for me to get my old rhythm back and get back in the flow of things. A few of them, I was jumping too much or pushing too hard."

Not attacking the basket more, playing gingerly in his first games back, is understandable (Granger scored 25 points in Saturday's loss at Oklahoma City, launching 10 more 3-pointers on a 6-of-21 night). Playing that way, even when healthy, is not. Granger has taken some heat from Pacers fans and media for a growing 3-point fascination, and the numbers support it.

As a rookie in 2005-06, Granger attempted 93 from behind the arc in 1,765 minutes, a rate of one every 18.9 minutes. His second season, it was one every 9.7 minutes. That rate has accelerated in the seasons since to 6.8, 5.4 and now, on 166 hoists in 690 minutes, one 3-pointer for every 4.2 minutes he's on the floor. It doesn't help that his accuracy is down from a career-best 40.4 percent last season to 35.5 now.

New York's Danilo Gallinari averages one 3-pointer every 4.6 minutes. Orlando's Rashard Lewis is one every 5.2. No wonder some folks hoped Granger was paying attention to Kevin Durant on Saturday, when the Thunder star scored 40 points while making and taking just two 3-pointers. Granger ranks 18th in the NBA in attempts from the arc and 50th in shots from the foul line.

O'Brien just seems eager for Granger to return to last season's form, when he became the first player in NBA history to boost his scoring average by at least five points for three consecutive seasons (from 7.5 ppg to 13.9, 19.6 and 25.8). He also was the first Indiana player to top 25 per game since Billy Knight in 1976-77.

"It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."

After all, Indiana -- despite being tied for the conference's second-worst record (11-25) -- is just five games out of the eighth playoff spot in the forgiving East. The Pacers were 6-12 with Granger healthy, 5-11 while he was out and 0-2 after 48 hours of comeback.

"It's on my shoulders, but it's on a lot of other guys' shoulders too," he said. "We really have to come together as a unit and make this thing work. We are struggling right now, but we're not that far out of the playoffs. I saw [while sidelined] that we need a dominant scorer. I'll definitely bring that. It's on me to watch the shots I take, watch the shots not to take. Things like that, getting teammates involved. We have to have that on our team."

So often below the radar anyway in Indianapolis, the Pacers will stay there until they get things right -- Granger included. "The only thing that brings us into the spotlight is winning," he said. "We're not Chicago, we're not New York. Those teams, you can lose and everyone still knows who you are. It's different in Indiana, so we have to compensate by winning."

Pacersfan46
01-11-2010, 02:18 PM
The cure to this painful season is a top draft pick. That's all.

-- Steve --

Infinite MAN_force
01-11-2010, 02:35 PM
If the pacers trade Murphy they will go .500 or better the rest of the way, my stone cold lock prediction.

Hurts if you are into draft picks, but might sneak into the playoffs in the weak east.

Speed
01-11-2010, 02:44 PM
I'm glad they aren't numb to losing yet. That's a good thing. I still think they'll go on just enough of a run to screw it all up...

Brad8888
01-11-2010, 02:54 PM
Amazed that Bird was as negative as he was about the threes. His coach dictates what happens, and when movement stops, he goes to the three, and when the players are tired late, we lose.

Maybe he will make a change, or at least force O'Brein to change.

90'sNBARocked
01-11-2010, 02:55 PM
Obie has more excuses than my 2 year old son!

I am so sick of the same fungus repetitevly coming out of Obie's mouth

So Bird was supposedly shaking his head after the Minny game at all the 3's

News flash Bird, your the CEO you CAN make changes!!

Brad8888
01-11-2010, 02:57 PM
I also think that the players all understand that there is not much hope for any substantial change and that they must be waiting for the axe to fall on them and wondering who is going to be traded and when. I do give them credit for continuing to be upset, though. That does show that they at least have professional pride and a passion for the game.

Hicks
01-11-2010, 03:03 PM
"Do they take every loss this hard?" I asked a Pacers insider. "Oh yeah," he said. "When they win, it's like they've won a playoff game. When they lose, it's like this."

Slightly touching, but also concerning. 'Never get too high or too low', and they're doing both.

dal9
01-11-2010, 03:29 PM
In fact, the visiting locker room Friday might have set some sort of record for downcast after what, after all, was just another regular-season loss in early January.

You'd have thought it was the wrong end of a Game 7: Almost all the players were seated at their dressing stalls, grim dead-ahead looks on their faces, unless they were staring blankly at the floor or covering up in frustration with a hand or two to the forehead. Even inactive guys like Jeff Foster and Travis Diener were sitting stone-faced in their street clothes at least 15 minutes after the final horn of their 116-109 loss to the Timberwolves.

"Do they take every loss this hard?" I asked a Pacers insider. "Oh yeah," he said. "When they win, it's like they've won a playoff game. When they lose, it's like this."


keeping in mind this is from NBA.com, this seems suspiciously like propaganda

Unclebuck
01-11-2010, 03:30 PM
Slightly touching, but also concerning. 'Never get too high or too low', and they're doing both.

They are a young team and they don't win too often - it is to be expected that they would react that way. I think it is a positive that they get so down after they lose.

As I have mentioned several times I didn't see the game, so I have no idea if they were open threes or not. if they weren't open than JOB doesn't want them to take a three unless the shot clock is about to expire or if it a last possession situation

Unclebuck
01-11-2010, 03:31 PM
Obie has more excuses than my 2 year old son!

I am so sick of the same fungus repetitevly coming out of Obie's mouth

So Bird was supposedly shaking his head after the Minny game at all the 3's

News flash Bird, your the CEO you CAN make changes!!

Where is the fungus in these comments, which unless I overlooked something were the only words by JOB in the article

"It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."

CableKC
01-11-2010, 03:35 PM
Amazed that Bird was as negative as he was about the threes. His coach dictates what happens, and when movement stops, he goes to the three, and when the players are tired late, we lose.

Maybe he will make a change, or at least force O'Brein to change.
See....this is the thing that gets me......I really don't get the sense that Bird is all too happy about this game...much less about any other game that we have played this season where we lost. This isn't the first time that we know of where Bird wasn't happy with the performance of the Team.

If Bird sees that there is a problem.....then he himself should act upon them to enforce those changes. In this case....if he doesn't like that we were taking too many 3pt shots....either talk to the Coach...or the Team about it. If he doesn't says or do anything about it...then he's as much of a reason for the failure of this Team as everyone else is....Coach and Players.

I'm guessing that there is a vision that he has for this Team....and if he's not seeing "his vision" translated into actions on the court....then there's either a "disconnect" with the Coach/Team that is not implementing it or he's he's not doing his job to make it clear what his vision is in the first place.

Either way.....something rotten in the State of Denmark....and it's up to Bird to fix it.

CableKC
01-11-2010, 03:43 PM
keeping in mind this is from NBA.com, this seems suspiciously like propaganda
It's possible.....but based off of what some of the fans here on PD have seen during Home Games......there are some Players on the bench that do appear to take a loss seriously. It makes sense given that last season, we seem to get further then most people thought we would have gotten....so there was obvious optimism going into this season. I'm guessing that many of the Players from last season were looking at this season the same way that many of the fans here on PD were looking at it...with optimism. Given Bird's stance on "not tanking" and always going out there to compete and win......with all this losing...I wouldn't be surprised if it took a toll on them...which is good.

graphic-er
01-11-2010, 03:44 PM
Where is the fungus in these comments, which unless I overlooked something were the only words by JOB in the article

"It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."

They aren't exactly truthful comments from Jim, Danny has not played very well this year despite averaging 25 a game, heck during that game his shot was deflected in one of those 4 straight misses at the end of the game. Simple fact is, until he starts taking it inside, posting up on a few scores, he will be the easiest star player to guard in the NBA.

And its just proof as to how dumb Bird is that he doesn't even address the coaches or the player about an obvious problem in shot selection.

Will Galen
01-11-2010, 03:52 PM
Either way.....something rotten in the State of Denmark....and it's up to Bird to fix it.

Nothing to be fixed . . . THIS YEAR!

CableKC
01-11-2010, 03:54 PM
Nothing to be fixed . . . THIS YEAR!
You lost me here.......you don't think that anything will be fixed this season? Care to explain why?

Unclebuck
01-11-2010, 03:55 PM
They aren't exactly truthful comments from Jim, Danny has not played very well this year despite averaging 25 a game, heck during that game his shot was deflected in one of those 4 straight misses at the end of the game. Simple fact is, until he starts taking it inside, posting up on a few scores, he will be the easiest star player to guard in the NBA.

And its just proof as to how dumb Bird is that he doesn't even address the coaches or the player about an obvious problem in shot selection.

How do you know he doesn't address it with the coach. he talks with Jim every day and I'm sure they talk about a lot of things.

Actually those comments from Jim I believe were made prior to the game Friday night

Trophy
01-11-2010, 03:55 PM
I think if we were to make a decent trade this season, we would cure our season, but we can't wait much longer.

d_c
01-11-2010, 03:57 PM
Simple fact is, until he starts taking it inside, posting up on a few scores, he will be the easiest star player to guard in the NBA.

And when he starts doing that, that's when he'll start going by way of Jermaine in the injury department. I know it's what fans want to see out of all their favorite players, but taking it inside all the time is a lot harder on the body than most people are willing to give credit for.

CableKC
01-11-2010, 03:58 PM
How do you know he doesn't address it with the coach. he talks with Jim every day and I'm sure they talk about a lot of things.

Actually those comments from Jim I believe were made prior to the game Friday night
If this was discussed......Bird is telling JO'B that he wants some change and either JO'B isn't making those changes that Bird wants....or worse....JO'B tried to implement those changes and the Players blew him off.

Either way...we're back to Square One......something is wrong...and it's not being fixed either from the top or all the way down to the Player level.

Bball
01-11-2010, 04:12 PM
If this was discussed......Bird is telling JO'B that he wants some change and either JO'B isn't making those changes that Bird wants....or worse....JO'B tried to implement those changes and the Players blew him off.

Either way...we're back to Square One......something is wrong...and it's not being fixed either from the top or all the way down to the Player level.

I suspect O'Brien talks out of both sides of his mouth with Bird just as much as he does the press.

I can only hope Bird sees O'Brien's words are meaningless because his actions show his true desire for what he wants the players doing.

CableKC
01-11-2010, 04:21 PM
I suspect O'Brien talks out of both sides of his mouth with Bird just as much as he does the press.

I can only hope Bird sees O'Brien's words are meaningless because his actions show his true desire for what he wants the players doing.
To play devil's advocate....or I guess do my best impression of UB ;)....how do know that JO'B hasn't followed what Bird has told him in the past and the problem isn't with the players?

I'm guessing that it's a combination of both Players ( where they have turned off JO'B at this point ) and JO'B ( truly discouraging the volume of 3pt shooting by doing little to nothing and not having the cajones to bench a Player for not following what the Coach says ).

90'sNBARocked
01-11-2010, 04:28 PM
Where is the fungus in these comments, which unless I overlooked something were the only words by JOB in the article

"It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."

What I was saying is Obie constantly plays the sympathy card, or says one thing in the media then does the opposite in return

Bball
01-11-2010, 04:35 PM
To play devil's advocate....or I guess do my best impression of UB ;)....how do know that JO'B hasn't followed what Bird has told him in the past and the problem isn't with the players?


Easy- Just look at the lineups and rotations O'Brien uses when he has all or a majority of the team available to him.

He sits defensive players and plays shooters. And for many minutes. And in crunch time.

d_c
01-11-2010, 04:39 PM
Easy- Just look at the lineups and rotations O'Brien uses when he has all or a majority of the team available to him.

He sits defensive players and plays shooters. And for many minutes. And in crunch time.

Mainly because NBA coaches don't want to play scrubs in crunchtime, and that's what JOB's defensive players are.

Anthem
01-11-2010, 04:48 PM
If the pacers trade Murphy they will go .500 or better the rest of the way, my stone cold lock prediction.
Our schedule actually gets more difficult, so we could get a lot better and not win more.

The really scary thing is that we've mostly been playing the bad teams so far.

Speed
01-11-2010, 05:02 PM
The really scary thing is that we've mostly been playing the bad teams so far.

On the schedule and in practice. :)

Unclebuck
01-11-2010, 05:04 PM
Our schedule actually gets more difficult, so we could get a lot better and not win more.

The really scary thing is that we've mostly been playing the bad teams so far.

True.

When I look at the schedule I tend to look at the road games and we still have the following teams to play on the road - these are teams that will likely all win 50 + games
Magic
Mavs
Lakers
Blazers
Suns
Nuggets
Celtics
Cavs
Hawks
Cavs

Those are all losses for sure. Really though the Pacers will likely win maybe 4 or 5 road games the rest of the way

Speed
01-11-2010, 05:08 PM
True.

When I look at the schedule I tend to look at the road games and we still have the following teams to play on the road - these are teams that will likely all win 50 + games
Magic
Mavs
Lakers
Blazers
Suns
Nuggets
Celtics
Cavs
Hawks
Cavs

Those are all losses for sure.

That takes you to 35 losses for almost certain. If you when half of the other remaining games you finish the season at 29-53.

Justin Tyme
01-11-2010, 05:14 PM
Obie has more excuses than my 2 year old son!

I am so sick of the same fungus repetitevly coming out of Obie's mouth

So Bird was supposedly shaking his head after the Minny game at all the 3's

News flash Bird, your the CEO you CAN make changes!!


I don't believe Bird has seen that memo.

McKeyFan
01-11-2010, 05:21 PM
Mainly because NBA coaches don't want to play scrubs in crunchtime, and that's what JOB's defensive players are.

Scrubs that have twice the winning percentage of the shooters.

McKeyFan
01-11-2010, 05:23 PM
Nothing to be fixed . . . THIS YEAR!

Riots in Denmark.

90'sNBARocked
01-11-2010, 05:30 PM
I don't believe Bird has seen that memo.

He had it but then obie wadded the paper into a ball and screamed

"Your open man, shoot the 3"!!

Justin Tyme
01-11-2010, 05:34 PM
The really scary thing is that we've mostly been playing the bad teams so far.



The scary thing is they get better and knock the franchise out of a good pick. I know that sounds terrible, but that's just how I feel now after watching this team lose to mediocre and bad teams. 11-25 record doesn't put a smile on my face or a spring in my step. I've resigned myself to a terrible season, so might as well make the best out of it by getting a great pick for the future.

Bball
01-11-2010, 06:16 PM
Really though the Pacers will likely win maybe 4 or 5 road games the rest of the way


Quite the optimist aren't you?

d_c
01-11-2010, 07:12 PM
Scrubs that have twice the winning percentage of the shooters.

Play that lineup over an 82 game season and you'd have about 18-20 wins (which I suppose wouldn't be bad for all intents and purposes).

There's a reason Solomon Jones never got playing time on an Atlanta team with no real center, Earl Watson was cut by a 23 win team and Dahntay Jones only averaged 18 minutes a game for Denver despite being the starter for 71 games.

Unclebuck
01-12-2010, 09:04 AM
See O'Brien doesn't agree with all of Granger's threes.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100112/SPORTS04/1120344/1088/SPORTS04/O-Brien-Granger-chat-about-3s

Pacers notebook
O'Brien, Granger chat about 3s
By Mike Wells
Posted: January 12, 2010Comments (4) Recommend E-mail Print ShareA A
Indiana Pacers coach Jim O'Brien likes the 3-point shot, but even he realizes Danny Granger is too enamored with 3s.

O'Brien recently addressed the issue with his forward.





Granger went into Monday's game against the Toronto Raptors with 166 3-pointers attempted, which represents nearly half his shots (357) this season. He went 9-of-19 against the Raptors from the field, including 2-of-7 3s.

"Now we're playing with groups that are going to space the court, and as a result, when the ball goes to Danny and somebody is closing out on him, there's no reason for him to settle for a challenged 3 because the court is wide open now," O'Brien said.

Granger attempted 20 3-pointers, making seven, in his first two games back from a torn right plantar fascia.

Oklahoma City Thunder forward Kevin Durant mixed 3-point shooting and driving to the basket Saturday against the Pacers.

Durant scored 40 points on 12-of-18 shooting, including 2-of-2 on 3-pointers.

"(Granger) has to take advantage of more one-on-one situations," O'Brien said. "So we've had that discussion, and I don't mind 3s, but I'd like for him to mix it up and get to the foul line."

dohman
01-12-2010, 10:21 AM
See O'Brien doesn't agree with all of Granger's threes.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100112/SPORTS04/1120344/1088/SPORTS04/O-Brien-Granger-chat-about-3s

Pacers notebook
O'Brien, Granger chat about 3s
By Mike Wells
Posted: January 12, 2010Comments (4) Recommend E-mail Print ShareA A
Indiana Pacers coach Jim O'Brien likes the 3-point shot, but even he realizes Danny Granger is too enamored with 3s.

O'Brien recently addressed the issue with his forward.





Granger went into Monday's game against the Toronto Raptors with 166 3-pointers attempted, which represents nearly half his shots (357) this season. He went 9-of-19 against the Raptors from the field, including 2-of-7 3s.

"Now we're playing with groups that are going to space the court, and as a result, when the ball goes to Danny and somebody is closing out on him, there's no reason for him to settle for a challenged 3 because the court is wide open now," O'Brien said.

Granger attempted 20 3-pointers, making seven, in his first two games back from a torn right plantar fascia.

Oklahoma City Thunder forward Kevin Durant mixed 3-point shooting and driving to the basket Saturday against the Pacers.

Durant scored 40 points on 12-of-18 shooting, including 2-of-2 on 3-pointers.

"(Granger) has to take advantage of more one-on-one situations," O'Brien said. "So we've had that discussion, and I don't mind 3s, but I'd like for him to mix it up and get to the foul line."


Which it looked like he did last night from the little bit I was able to watch. Looked like he got at least 2 buckets and the foul which is very nice.

They should have a stat for that. How many times you can finish with the foul.

Bball
01-12-2010, 10:27 AM
UB,
This is where I have problems believing O'Brien is doing anything more than paying lip service. He encourages this 3 happy offense. He continually runs to the idea of 'spacing the floor'. Then once the complaints about players being 3 happy reach a fevered pitch, including comments from the FO, he suddenly has a comment against it himself?

Well... what's he doing about it?

At best the players are confused about when they are supposed to be doing what on the floor. There's no structure to the offense. There's never (rarely) any patience. I'm sure the players know the difference in a good shot and a bad shot but the coach wants quick shots and clearly wants lots of 3's.

I don't see how you can use O'Brien's words to defend him when his actions make it clear his words are meaningless. And I'll bet you a cookie the team feels the same way as me.

gummy
01-12-2010, 05:50 PM
During the Toronto pre-game show Stacy Paetz says Danny is still playing through pain. He has to be careful about how he distributes his weight on his feet so that he can jump. So are we really seeing a healthy DG or not? Sure would like to know.

McKeyFan
01-12-2010, 10:05 PM
Play that lineup over an 82 game season and you'd have about 18-20 wins (which I suppose wouldn't be bad for all intents and purposes).

We didn't even play it for ten.

We played it about 8 or 9 times and got seven wins. I think they would do better than 18-20 myself.

d_c
01-12-2010, 10:24 PM
We didn't even play it for ten.

We played it about 8 or 9 times and got seven wins. I think they would do better than 18-20 myself.

You're advocating a lineup of scrubs that won't be here in a couple years and sure as heck won't be here when the team is competitive again.

McKeyFan
01-13-2010, 09:00 AM
You're advocating a lineup of scrubs that won't be here in a couple years and sure as heck won't be here when the team is competitive again.

Seven out of nine is pretty competitive.

I'm lost in the twilight zone when people post about scrubs who win and starters who lose.

Unclebuck
01-13-2010, 10:29 AM
UB,
This is where I have problems believing O'Brien is doing anything more than paying lip service. He encourages this 3 happy offense. He continually runs to the idea of 'spacing the floor'. Then once the complaints about players being 3 happy reach a fevered pitch, including comments from the FO, he suddenly has a comment against it himself?

Well... what's he doing about it?

At best the players are confused about when they are supposed to be doing what on the floor. There's no structure to the offense. There's never (rarely) any patience. I'm sure the players know the difference in a good shot and a bad shot but the coach wants quick shots and clearly wants lots of 3's.

I don't see how you can use O'Brien's words to defend him when his actions make it clear his words are meaningless. And I'll bet you a cookie the team feels the same way as me.


If the players are confused then we have a bunch of dumb players. Jim's offense is pretty simple. Shoot the ball if you are open, don't worry about how much time is on the shot clock. Don't take shots if you are not open unless the shot clock is winding down. if you don't have an open shot, either pass the ball or drive. Don't hold the ball, keep it moving, move the ball and yourself and you'll get an open shot.

if an NBA player cannot play in Jim's offense then they shouldn't be in the NBA - his approach and the way he gives every player confidence to shoot the ball is an approach every NBA player should love. I would say playing for Jim on the offensive end is probably the easiest thing a player does in his career.


I'll bet you a dozen cookies that if you ask his former players id Jim was easy to play for as far as offense is concerned - probably 90-95% would say oh yes, he gives you a lot of freedom and instills a lot of confidence because he wants you to shoot if you are open. Ask Jeff Foster if he has more confidence to shoot under O'Brien than he did under Carlisle

duke dynamite
01-13-2010, 10:44 AM
If the players are confused then we have a bunch of dumb players. Jim's offense is pretty simple. Shoot the ball if you are open, don't worry about how much time is on the shot clock. Don't take shots if you are not open unless the shot clock is winding down. if you don't have an open shot, either pass the ball or drive. Don't hold the ball, keep it moving, move the ball and yourself and you'll get an open shot.

if an NBA player cannot play in Jim's offense then they shouldn't be in the NBA - his approach and the way he gives every player confidence to shoot the ball is an approach every NBA player should love. I would say playing for Jim on the offensive end is probably the easiest thing a player does in his career.


I'll bet you a dozen cookies that if you ask his former players id Jim was easy to play for as far as offense is concerned - probably 90-95% would say oh yes, he gives you a lot of freedom and instills a lot of confidence because he wants you to shoot if you are open. Ask Jeff Foster if he has more confidence to shoot under O'Brien than he did under Carlisle
P.O.T.Y.

Bball
01-13-2010, 11:14 AM
If the players are confused then we have a bunch of dumb players. Jim's offense is pretty simple. Shoot the ball if you are open, don't worry about how much time is on the shot clock. Don't take shots if you are not open unless the shot clock is winding down. if you don't have an open shot, either pass the ball or drive. Don't hold the ball, keep it moving, move the ball and yourself and you'll get an open shot.

if an NBA player cannot play in Jim's offense then they shouldn't be in the NBA - his approach and the way he gives every player confidence to shoot the ball is an approach every NBA player should love. I would say playing for Jim on the offensive end is probably the easiest thing a player does in his career.


I'll bet you a dozen cookies that if you ask his former players id Jim was easy to play for as far as offense is concerned - probably 90-95% would say oh yes, he gives you a lot of freedom and instills a lot of confidence because he wants you to shoot if you are open. Ask Jeff Foster if he has more confidence to shoot under O'Brien than he did under Carlisle

I don't think it's that simple because of the conflicting messages (being sent by the coach via actions versus words). There is no discipline being shown in the offense. It's helter skelter and someone is just randomly putting up a jumper. Nobody is probing anything. The lack of discipline and over-reliance on the 3 is what makes it confusing. It's what make's it a losing proposition as well. It's also what gets the team out of defensive position because the offense many times is not set and we have a hurried shot and the ball going the other way.

I understood the idea of getting players some confidence that they could shoot the ball after years of them having to watch JO hold the ball and clank it off the side of the rim. I was fine with it (for the most part) in year 1. But at some point you have to see we're beyond that now. They need some structure. They need to use patience on possessions when we don't have a true advantage or can't afford a wasted possession. Sometimes you just have to realize that one of the best things you can do is make the other team's defense actually work.

And especially when a team isn't overly athletically gifted you don't need your offense putting your defense behind the 8 ball on so many possessions.

I simply can't believe the FO is supporting O'Brien's continued brand of losing basketball. I know I am not supporting it.

d_c
01-13-2010, 04:29 PM
Seven out of nine is pretty competitive.

I'm lost in the twilight zone when people post about scrubs who win and starters who lose.

I'm lost in the twilight zone about thinking that a team built around any of those guys is worth a damn. So they won a short stretch in a soft schedule. That's great. In the long run, they are not a competitive proposition.

McKeyFan
01-13-2010, 04:58 PM
In the long run, they are not a competitive proposition.

Not that they ever got a chance to demonstrate that.

Brad8888
01-13-2010, 05:03 PM
Ask Jeff Foster if he has more confidence to shoot under O'Brien than he did under Carlisle

Ask Dahntay Jones instead. Worked great to start with, magically became Brandonesque, now looks to be benched for an extended period. Must truly be a pleasure for him to have such a confidence builder.

While I don't disagree with the decision to bench him, I do disagree with the DNP. He at least deserves some time, just not as a starter.

Unclebuck
01-13-2010, 05:15 PM
Ask Dahntay Jones instead. Worked great to start with, magically became Brandonesque, now looks to be benched for an extended period. Must truly be a pleasure for him to have such a confidence builder.

.

I was specially discussing the confidence Jim gives his players to shoot the ball and when Dahntay plays again, he'll have the confidence to shoot the ball.

Will Galen
01-13-2010, 05:31 PM
You lost me here.......you don't think that anything will be fixed this season? Care to explain why?

I didn't say I thought nothing would be fixed. I said nothing needs to be fixed.

Why? Because I want a top three pick this year.

d_c
01-13-2010, 05:41 PM
Not that they ever got a chance to demonstrate that.

If you really think guys like Watson, Jones, Jones, McBob et al.. as a core are a winning proposition in the long run, I won't try to change your mind.

But Bird and every GM in the league see them for what they are: roster fodder/filler.

It's not like I champion the starters as a long term solution, either. I've always said summer 2011 is the possible light at the end of the tunnel because you no longer have to commit to Murphleavy, Ford, etc..Those guys either won't be here or will be brought back at significant pay cuts. The primary reason the Pacers can get better is because in 2011 they can bring in better starters with a more flexible salary situation.

The bench will probably change because bench fodder on every roster changes all the time.

McKeyFan
01-13-2010, 05:56 PM
If you really think guys like Watson, Jones, Jones, McBob et al.. as a core are a winning proposition in the long run, I won't try to change your mind.


It was Watson, Rush, Jones, Granger, and Hibbert.

Unclebuck
01-14-2010, 09:18 AM
Ask Dahntay Jones instead. Worked great to start with, magically became Brandonesque, now looks to be benched for an extended period. Must truly be a pleasure for him to have such a confidence builder.



He looked last night like he has all the confidence he needs.

BillS
01-14-2010, 11:06 AM
Because I want a top <b>four</b> pick this year.

fixed (so to speak)

Brad8888
01-14-2010, 12:49 PM
He looked last night like he has all the confidence he needs.

Well of course. Dahntay performed flawlessly due to the fact that O'B's system has worked in the second half two games in a row, and his infusion of confidence into Dahntay has now turned him into a player that we should expect to score in the upper teens nightly while not diminshing the performances of our three point shooters. And now, with the added benefit of O'B giving players confidence in shooting too, we will probably lead the league in scoring for the remainder of the season, and possibly reach the sixth seed in the East because of it. Right now, we are just that good, and O'B deserves all the credit in the world for that!

O'B is obviously a brilliant tactician who is smarter than anyone in any building he steps foot in, especially his own players. Coach of the year at least, at this point, and an early candidate for coach of the millenium. How could I, or lots of other people ever doubt him????? :laugh:

Obviously, we used our threes to space the floor :rolleyes:, which left Dahntay able to do what he does best offensively, which is drive into traffic and shoot. Lo and behold, he made 3 of 6 for 50%, which is rare to see in today's NBA. No, without O'B providing the confidence boost that Dahntay needed by making him watch, Dahntay could not possibly have shot well last night. :D

The Nets await. I know this seems like laughable hyperbole, but my guess is that things will somehow go very differently against them. Up early, fade late, Dunleavy struggling when the Nets choose to shut him down because he is the key to our offensive flow (likely even they recognize that spacing comes from movement, not from threes), and with no in game adjustments from O'B to counter it, Nets may even accidentally win (because they can afford to due to their significant lead in the ping pong ball sweepstakes) in an ugly finish with a close score in the low to mid 90's and us bricking jumpers and not getting to the line down the stretch because our movement will have been stopped.

CableKC
01-14-2010, 12:58 PM
I really wonder if the benching of Inferno for the 3 previous games was more of a message to him to be less "tunnel vision" when it comes to the offensive end and to share the ball more. Although there were times when Inferno did score on his own....like he usually does......I really noticed that there were several plays where he made attempts to pass the ball out to other Players.