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Hicks
01-08-2010, 11:32 PM
Yes, that's right, we intentionally trotted out lineups such as Price/Rush/Jones/Dunleavy/Murphy tonight when we didn't have to. FANtastic.

imawhat
01-08-2010, 11:35 PM
When's our next game against the Bulls?

PaceBalls
01-08-2010, 11:36 PM
At least AJ is getting more PT...

Trophy
01-08-2010, 11:36 PM
When's our next game against the Bulls?

Feb. 24th in Chicago.

Speed
01-08-2010, 11:38 PM
When's our next game against the Bulls?


Why?

jhondog28
01-08-2010, 11:38 PM
JOB You dont think that your **** dont stink...but u know it smells like poo poo!!!!!

LoneGranger33
01-08-2010, 11:39 PM
I was a bit perplexed by that particular group too, especially against Al Jeff, but I was also watching the game on the Jumbotron at the Target Center, so I can't really say what was going on.

A.J. Price is my bright spot of the night - he had his fair share of errors, but he does something Earl and T.J. haven't, and that's penetrate and dish/finish. He seems at least backup worthy in the NBA, but could he be our starter sometime this season?

Troy Murphy's shot was pretty good - let's hope he doesn't have the Dunleavy effect in terms of declining after the return. Speaking of, Danny and Dunny shot it poorly in the first half and slightly below average in the second half, though the 4th quarter made me worry less about Granger.

Hibbert needs to not jump so much on defense. He needs to cut his jumping down at least 70%.

Trophy
01-08-2010, 11:40 PM
At least AJ is getting more PT...

We may have found our future PG. Not now or next season, but sometime down the road, he will become a valuable player on this team I think.

B00sh
01-08-2010, 11:41 PM
i dont even care anymore

McKeyFan
01-08-2010, 11:41 PM
Jim. O. Stubborn.

Who was it on here saying JOS doesn't really like Murph all that much? Was it Seth. Or Jay? Can't remember.

JOS loves Murph.

JOS is not simply showcasing him for a trade. If so, he could have pulled him after all the excellent shooting and played the better players the last five minutes.

No, he plays Murph. Because he loves Murph. Because he truly thinks Murph is a huge difference maker and one of the best players on our team.

He has a right to his opinion. He's the coach. I just happen to totally disagree with him.

Dahntay Jones is getting a raw deal.

Naptown_Seth
01-08-2010, 11:43 PM
Awesome. I assume the lack of official TV coverage gave them the boldness to crap all over me. ;)

So I can't comment on the content since I had to follow by gamecast on the BB, but I see a pretty clear issue.

THIRTY FREAKING TWO 3PAs. 32. Do you guys realize just how insanely high that total is?!?

Now they went 50% so you think "hey, that's a good thing". But then you look one column over. 17 FTA to Minny's FORTY FREAKING FIVE. 45 FTA and Dwayne Wade wasn't even on the court.

So they got 16 bonus points for the 3PM and lost 20 just on the made FTs, let alone the softer defense that 27 personal fouls and 45 FTAs creates....as in 50% from the field for Minny to go with the FTAs.

And then you have the 13% offensive boards out of total chances vs Minny's 29%, well more than double the effectiveness on rebounding.


How hard is it to add this up - Troy and Dun both went off from 3 (as did the team) and yet they were constantly fouling and giving up a very high FG%. Is it pointing fingers to simply notice some easy math?


I told you guys that McBob goes right back to the bench no matter how well he plays. Look at his output the last week or two. Do those numbers and some wins to go with them say "get this guy off the floor"??

Of course they don't.

I will at least say that Price got the PT he deserves, and seems to be showing that he might deserve even more if his play keeps up.


At least they got Danny and his 10 3PAs back. Seriously , WTF is going on there.

PaceBalls
01-08-2010, 11:43 PM
We may have found our future PG. Not now or next season, but sometime down the road, he will become a valuable player on this team I think.

It is starting to look that way. I would love to see AJ get more minutes in crunch time and eventually start for a stretch of games to really see how he does when given the reins. Then again, it might just be that he looks so great because everyone else is so awful.

Spirit
01-08-2010, 11:43 PM
i dont even care anymore

Same here, i've come to expect dumb coach decisions and losses. If the first didn't exist, the second wouldn't either. I think at least half our losses are mostly O'brien's fault. Sure we're not stacked with talent, and we've had injuries, but this team is STILL better that what they've been this year.

LoneGranger33
01-08-2010, 11:45 PM
Who's up for a new forum rule? I suggest the following: For every five posts you make, you can only mention Troy Murphy in one of them.

To be fair to the Pacers (in a roundabout way, to be sure), they did miss a LOT of bunnies. You'd think Jeff Foster was playing.

DGPR
01-08-2010, 11:45 PM
I'd like to get some sort of running tally from game 1 until game 82 to see what kind of lineup JOB starts and ends games with the most. Then we can print the list out and mail it to his house with a big red fail stamped on it.

jhondog28
01-08-2010, 11:47 PM
Awesome. I assume the lack of official TV coverage gave them the boldness to crap all over me. ;)

So I can't comment on the content since I had to follow by gamecast on the BB, but I see a pretty clear issue.

THIRTY FREAKING TWO 3PAs. 32. Do you guys realize just how insanely high that total is?!?

Now they went 50% so you think "hey, that's a good thing". But then you look one column over. 17 FTA to Minny's FORTY FREAKING FIVE. 45 FTA and Dwayne Wade wasn't even on the court.

So they got 16 bonus points for the 3PM and lost 20 just on the made FTs, let alone the softer defense that 27 personal fouls and 45 FTAs creates....as in 50% from the field for Minny to go with the FTAs.

And then you have the 13% offensive boards out of total chances vs Minny's 29%, well more than double the effectiveness on rebounding.


How hard is it to add this up - Troy and Dun both went off from 3 (as did the team) and yet they were constantly fouling and giving up a very high FG%. Is it pointing fingers to simply notice some easy math?


I told you guys that McBob goes right back to the bench no matter how well he plays. Look at his output the last week or two. Do those numbers and some wins to go with them say "get this guy off the floor"??

Of course they don't.

I will at least say that Price got the PT he deserves, and seems to be showing that he might deserve even more if his play keeps up.


At least they got Danny and his 10 3PAs back. Seriously , WTF is going on there.

Good god can someone do something! I have been agreeing with Seth wayyyy too much lately. OK I will say this Granger should not be shooting 10 3PT attempts. That is not his game, but at least that is understandable given his injury. He probably does not have his explosiveness to drive, but please as a team stop being so **** ing perimeter. Just put Murphy on the bench. The only reason to play him is if you are show casing his *** in a trade. Maybe they can work something out for Devin Harris. That is my dream.

McKeyFan
01-08-2010, 11:47 PM
Who's up for a new forum rule? I suggest the following: For every five posts you make, you can only mention Troy Murphy in one of them.

You've got a deal if:

- Troy stops getting starters minutes

or

- Troy starts and we win one out of three games. That ain't asking much, is it?

jhondog28
01-08-2010, 11:48 PM
Who's up for a new forum rule? I suggest the following: For every five posts you make, you can only mention Troy Murphy in one of them.

To be fair to the Pacers (in a roundabout way, to be sure), they did miss a LOT of bunnies. You'd think Jeff Foster was playing.

Thats like saying you cannot use vowels in anymore posts. Impossible

BlueNGold
01-08-2010, 11:48 PM
Jim. O. Stubborn.

Who was it on here saying JOS doesn't really like Murph all that much? Was it Seth. Or Jay? Can't remember.

JOS loves Murph.

JOS is not simply showcasing him for a trade. If so, he could have pulled him after all the excellent shooting and played the better players the last five minutes.

No, he plays Murph. Because he loves Murph. Because he truly thinks Murph is a huge difference maker and one of the best players on our team.

He has a right to his opinion. He's the coach. I just happen to totally disagree with him.

Dahntay Jones is getting a raw deal.

LOL. I think Jim loves the 3 more than anything. People need to realize that Granger was shooting more 3's than anyone in the league. JOS loves the 3.

He looks at Troy and sees another good shooter who can stretch the floor...yet he's surprised when we lose on the boards 56 to 36...and he sees Troy with only 1 offensive board. He's surprised when there's no Pacers under the bucket to fight for a board near the end of the game, because his PF is outside the 3 point line attempting another 4th quarter clanker.

Not sure if they still do it, but have you seen the Mr. Obvious skit on Saturday Night Live?

Naptown_Seth
01-08-2010, 11:49 PM
Jim. O. Stubborn.

Who was it on here saying JOS doesn't really like Murph all that much? Was it Seth. Or Jay? Can't remember.
Please. I'm a MFan disciple at this point. I said in the "they return" thread that my blog topic jinxed it.

I'm tired of playing for the future, put the younger kids in and go to the full-on low post game with Price at PG and McBob at PF and try to WIN NOW.

I don't dislike Solo and do still want his backup play at center, but I'd play McBob before Solo on most nights if that was the choice.



There's got to be some kind of weird power struggle going on within the franchise about the direction of things. I'm not sure who wants which players out there, maybe Bird wants Troy out there to sell high or JOB wants his vets to "win now", but the lineup changes don't seem fully based on results at BOTH ends of the court.

I like Watson starting, but he's struggled himself on defense and could stand to be spelled more often at times by Price, and perhaps even Head (so as not to go super small just to play Luther).

pwee31
01-08-2010, 11:50 PM
I'm aware that there's more going on with this team other then Murphy, but 7-3 without him and 4-21 with him would have to make any SANE human being wonder.

I understand needing to play him for showcasing purposes, but how can you not play the odds to at least see what happens?

Winning is what will get the fans back in the seat, make money back for the franchise, and also make potential players interested in your team.

Ha, if I'm playing a fighting game on old school Nintendo, and I'm beating folks more often pressing the B button then I am when I'm pressing the A button..... I'm going use the B button as often as possible, and only press A as needed

DGPR
01-08-2010, 11:52 PM
I'm aware that there's more going on with this team other then Murphy, but 7-3 without him and 4-21 with him would have to make any SANE human being wonder.

I understand needing to play him for showcasing purposes, but how can you not play the odds to at least see what happens?

Winning is what will get the fans back in the seat, make money back for the franchise, and also make potential players interested in your team.

Ha, if I'm playing a fighting game on old school Nintendo, and I'm beating folks more often pressing the B button then I am when I'm pressing the A button..... I'm going use the B button as often as possible, and only press A as needed

I wish JOB would just hit the B button :(

BlueNGold
01-08-2010, 11:53 PM
I'm aware that there's more going on with this team other then Murphy, but 7-3 without him and 4-21 with him would have to make any SANE human being wonder.

I understand needing to play him for showcasing purposes, but how can you not play the odds to at least see what happens?

Winning is what will get the fans back in the seat, make money back for the franchise, and also make potential players interested in your team.

Ha, if I'm playing a fighting game on old school Nintendo, and I'm beating folks more often pressing the B button then I am when I'm pressing the A button..... I'm going use the B button as often as possible, and only press A as needed

There's only one logical explanation. He's too expensive to sit.

McKeyFan
01-08-2010, 11:53 PM
Please. I'm a MFan disciple at this point. I said in the "they return" thread that my blog topic jinxed it.

I'm tired of playing for the future, put the younger kids in and go to the full-on low post game with Price at PG and McBob at PF and try to WIN NOW.

I don't dislike Solo and do still want his backup play at center, but I'd play McBob before Solo on most nights if that was the choice.



There's got to be some kind of weird power struggle going on within the franchise about the direction of things. I'm not sure who wants which players out there, maybe Bird wants Troy out there to sell high or JOB wants his vets to "win now", but the lineup changes don't seem fully based on results at BOTH ends of the court.

I like Watson starting, but he's struggled himself on defense and could stand to be spelled more often at times by Price, and perhaps even Head (so as not to go super small just to play Luther).

Yeah, okay. Sorry about that.

Who was it on here saying that JOB would truly rather not have Murph but felt forced to play him? It was in that whole Garnett thread, I think.

Anyway, yeah, I agree about the weird power struggle thing. SOMETHING IS WEIRD. Whatever it is, it has also overtaken Uncle Buck.

P.S. Where is your blog?

maragin
01-08-2010, 11:54 PM
I'm in the hope-camp that thinks we're not playing McBob so we can showcase other players before the trade deadline.

jhondog28
01-08-2010, 11:54 PM
I wish JOB would just hit the B button :(

Maybe we can just do up down up down left right left right B A and start over

Cherokee
01-08-2010, 11:57 PM
It's interesting that all these people have man crushes on Murphy -- they can't stop talking about him.

dal9
01-08-2010, 11:59 PM
There's only one logical explanation. He's too expensive to sit.

But then how does Ford fit in?

Anthem
01-09-2010, 12:00 AM
Danny's shooting wasn't great, but he looked more mobile out there. Or is that just me?

Cherokee
01-09-2010, 12:00 AM
But then how does Ford fit in?

He's too lousy to play?

BlueNGold
01-09-2010, 12:02 AM
But then how does Ford fit in?

Watson is not that cheap...and Ford is far less than Murphy.

The fact TJ is on the bench indicates the Pacers are attempting to win though. But the fact TJ lasted most of the season shows that basketball is not the only factor. It was easy to make that call...months ago.

Peck
01-09-2010, 12:03 AM
Jim. O. Stubborn.

Who was it on here saying JOS doesn't really like Murph all that much? Was it Seth. Or Jay? Can't remember.

JOS loves Murph.

JOS is not simply showcasing him for a trade. If so, he could have pulled him after all the excellent shooting and played the better players the last five minutes.

No, he plays Murph. Because he loves Murph. Because he truly thinks Murph is a huge difference maker and one of the best players on our team.

He has a right to his opinion. He's the coach. I just happen to totally disagree with him.

Dahntay Jones is getting a raw deal.


Post # 91

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=939139#post939139

BlueNGold
01-09-2010, 12:04 AM
I think the NBA is a mix of basketball and business...and the TJ and Troy situations are very good examples. Sorry if I burst any bubbles, but it isn't purely about winning basketball games.

Anthem
01-09-2010, 12:05 AM
Who was it on here saying JOS doesn't really like Murph all that much? Was it Seth. Or Jay? Can't remember.
Count.

Hicks
01-09-2010, 12:08 AM
I think the NBA is a mix of basketball and business...and the TJ and Troy situations are very good examples. Sorry if I burst any bubbles, but it isn't purely about winning basketball games.

No matter how good or bad Murphy plays, he will still be owed the same exact amount of money. So why should that affect how much playing time he gets?

McKeyFan
01-09-2010, 12:08 AM
Post # 91

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=939139#post939139

Much appreciated.

Apologies to Seth. (For consolation, I lump you in with a few prolific smart guys who use lots of statistics.)

Peck
01-09-2010, 12:09 AM
BTW this idea of showcasing a player is just nonsense.

Every G.M. in the NBA knows about Troy Murphy and T.J. Ford. They know their strength and weaknesses.

Now you might showcase a Josh McRoberts or an A.J. Price where there is not already a scouting book done on them or even Mike Dunleavy as it would need to be seen how his knee would hold up.

But at the end of the day the book on Ford and Murphy was written years ago so either playing them or not playing them will not make a differance in teams desires to get them.

Now what it might do is set the value either a little higher or a little lower because you can claim thier value to your club. In Troy's case it would be high but in Fords case it would be low.

Anthem
01-09-2010, 12:10 AM
I'm in the hope-camp that thinks we're not playing McBob so we can showcase other players before the trade deadline.
Agreed.

McKeyFan
01-09-2010, 12:11 AM
There's only one logical explanation. He's too expensive to sit.

Nope. Doesn't work. He could have very adequately showcased him this game without playing him down the stretch.

Jim.O.Stubborn is a true believer that Murphy is one of our bestest players.

Stop trying to simplify the mystery that is JOS.

Naptown_Seth
01-09-2010, 12:11 AM
Yeah, okay. Sorry about that.

Who was it on here saying that JOB would truly rather not have Murph but felt forced to play him? It was in that whole Garnett thread, I think.

Anyway, yeah, I agree about the weird power struggle thing. SOMETHING IS WEIRD. Whatever it is, it has also overtaken Uncle Buck.

P.S. Where is your blog?
I know the debate you are talking about and I was in there too, but I don't think I was taking that side. I was uptight about the whole "superstar X is coach B's type of guy" as in no s***, the coach thinks the megastar would help him win. I posted that I want the list of traits the coach thinks he can do without, and the list has to be substantial enough to match an average player's skill set.


If I didn't know Buck in person I'd swear he was JOB or Bird or something. God love him, but he's pod people now. ;)


Wells is supposed to post my blog post on his blog sometime after the game tonight. It's already been rendered outdated in just one game. Shoulda posted it today instead. :D

Cherokee
01-09-2010, 12:11 AM
BTW this idea of showcasing a player is just nonsense.

Every G.M. in the NBA knows about Troy Murphy and T.J. Ford. They know their strength and weaknesses.

Now you might showcase a Josh McRoberts or an A.J. Price where there is not already a scouting book done on them or even Mike Dunleavy as it would need to be seen how his knee would hold up.

But at the end of the day the book on Ford and Murphy was written years ago so either playing them or not playing them will not make a differance in teams desires to get them.

Now what it might do is set the value either a little higher or a little lower because you can claim thier value to your club. In Troy's case it would be high but in Fords case it would be low.

I agree, but I can see them showcasing them after an injury so the other GMs know they are healthy again.

Anthem
01-09-2010, 12:11 AM
But then how does Ford fit in?
He doesn't, because he can't hit the three. If he could, he'd be playing.

Naptown_Seth
01-09-2010, 12:14 AM
It's interesting that all these people have man crushes on Murphy -- they can't stop talking about him.
Yeah, kinda like all the researchers with man crushes on cancer and can't stop talking about finding a cure. Good, sound logic.

And what was Neil Armstrong's big hangup on the moon anyway. Get a room already.

Cherokee
01-09-2010, 12:19 AM
Yeah, kinda like all the researchers with man crushes on cancer and can't stop talking about finding a cure. Good, sound logic.

And what was Neil Armstrong's big hangup on the moon anyway. Get a room already.

I believe that would be a disease crush. I've never heard of that one. As for Neil Armstrong, that makes no sense whatsoever. Get a room? That's a sharp one.

McKeyFan
01-09-2010, 12:21 AM
It's interesting that all these people have man crushes on Murphy -- they can't stop talking about him.

By this logic, you have man crushes on us.

BlueNGold
01-09-2010, 12:22 AM
No matter how good or bad Murphy plays, he will still be owed the same exact amount of money. So why should that affect how much playing time he gets?

There are always people who will buy what you have to sell...even if it's a pile of poop. Because for some reason or another they believe. Maybe they believe because they look at the rebounding stats...or his perimeter game. Maybe they see his 8-12 shooting tonight and think he has value. But if you acknowledge that the product is poor (by benching it), you limit your chances to trade him....and you lose leverage. But if you play him and he fills the stat sheet, you have a chance.

I think we all know TJ had been shopped for YEARS. I think to one extent or another, the same is true of Murphy....but he's just too expensive to sit. Heck, TJ was too expensive to sit until they finally threw in the towel.

Cherokee
01-09-2010, 12:25 AM
By this logic, you have man crushes on us.

Sorry, I don't swing that way, but don't let me stop you.

BlueNGold
01-09-2010, 12:26 AM
Nope. Doesn't work. He could have very adequately showcased him this game without playing him down the stretch.

Jim.O.Stubborn is a true believer that Murphy is one of our bestest players.

Stop trying to simplify the mystery that is JOS.

I cannot believe that he doesn't know better...so it does remain a mystery to me. Has to be something other than him thinking that Troy will help win the game....particularly in the 4th quarter. Nobody could possibly believe that.

Edit: oops. I stand corrected. There are people on this board, including knowledgeable posters, who believe it.

Naptown_Seth
01-09-2010, 12:26 AM
Much appreciated.

Apologies to Seth. (For consolation, I lump you in with a few prolific smart guys who use lots of statistics.)
Count and I usually agree on quite a lot actually, though a few things like Hands, bro don't go so well between us.

In his defense I think part of his point was that Troy does some known things that JOB likes to rely on, so he plays him. But right after that Hicks made a post I totally agree with about him sweeping in for the stolen rebounds and some of the "oh, let me get out of the way" defense that is actually making guys like Roy worse.

So I can't agree on Troy having much zero or positive value. I think he is hurting them even when he has great 3pt night, let alone when his shot is off.

It's like a QB that takes a sack rather than risk the INT or even the incomplete. Keeps his stats up but his team keeps losing. Making 3s is helpful, but nearly every other part of his game is not really beneficial.



BTW, let's not let Dun off the hook. This was nearly a breakthrough game for him based on the last few weeks and it featured a 1 of 9 inside the arc.

I realize Rush was 0-4 inside the arc himself, but he's younger, paid much less and plays much better defense. BTW, in the 4th quarter Rush had 3 assists, a 3PM, and 3 defensive rebounds, so even in a slow game for him he contributed quite a bit down the stretch as they reeled Minny in.

Doug
01-09-2010, 12:32 AM
Nope. Doesn't work. He could have very adequately showcased him this game without playing him down the stretch.

Jim.O.Stubborn is a true believer that Murphy is one of our bestest players.

Stop trying to simplify the mystery that is JOS.Sadly, Murphy might be one of our bestest players.

Naptown_Seth
01-09-2010, 12:32 AM
I believe that would be a disease crush. I've never heard of that one. As for Neil Armstrong, that makes no sense whatsoever. Get a room? That's a sharp one.
Of course it doesn't. You're using the logic that if you keep discussing a subject you love it. Those thousands of Jewish people have a real love of Nazis.* It's brilliant.

Armstrong was the first man to walk on the moon and therefore it was a topic he often discussed, therefore he was in love with the moon.

This is where the hand holding ends.










* Yes I Nazi'd this thread into silly irrelevance. I don't care, I'm annoyed.

Doug
01-09-2010, 12:33 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Looks like we've reached that point with Murphy discussions

Cherokee
01-09-2010, 12:39 AM
Of course it doesn't. You're using the logic that if you keep discussing a subject you love it. Those thousands of Jewish people have a real love of Nazis.* It's brilliant.

Armstrong was the first man to walk on the moon and therefore it was a topic he often discussed, therefore he was in love with the moon.

This is where the hand holding ends.









* Yes I Nazi'd this thread into silly irrelevance. I don't care, I'm annoyed.

I'm annoyed, too. I don't think Murphy is a great player, but the constant harping on the issue is ridiculous. That's all I'm saying. Have a pleasant evening.

ChicagoJ
01-09-2010, 12:39 AM
Count.

I was saying that as bad as Murphy's defense is, he's only a "liability" (in Jim's eyes... not mine) at one end of the court because he does what Jim wants offensively - hit 3FGs at a high percentage. You can make a case in JOB's offensive system why Murphy gets minutes. I wouldn't do it that way. But I like Power Forwards that can Power.

I was contrasting it to Ford, who sucks at both ends of the court.

The rest of the conversation took place after that post. That was not a position I was taking.

Naptown_Seth
01-09-2010, 12:39 AM
I cannot believe that he doesn't know better...so it does remain a mystery to me. Has to be something other than him thinking that Troy will help win the game....particularly in the 4th quarter. Nobody could possibly believe that.

Edit: oops. I stand corrected. There are people on this board, including knowledgeable posters, who believe it.
Some men ya just can't reach, so you get what we had here tonight, which is the way JOS wants it. Well, he gets it.

I don't like it any more than you men.



Also I now feel like I ate 50 eggs.

Cherokee
01-09-2010, 12:48 AM
Some men ya just can't reach, so you get what we had here tonight, which is the way JOS wants it. Well, he gets it.

I don't like it any more than you men.



Also I now feel like I ate 50 eggs.

Hang in there. We can disagree without being disagreeable. :)

Eindar
01-09-2010, 12:50 AM
Well, one bright spot. This game counts double in the John Wall sweepstakes, since Minny is "ahead" of us...

obnoxiousmodesty
01-09-2010, 01:16 AM
Here's another thing I don't particularly care for:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100108/SPORTS04/100108030/1004/SPORTS/Timberwolves-spoil-Granger-s-return-to-Pacers-lineup



O'Brien said before the game that he planned to limit Granger's minutes because of his prolonged absence, likening it to a preseason strategy by playing him in short stints to test his conditioning.

But Granger ended up playing 31 minutes, pretty close to his average of 36 minutes a game before the injury.Now I couldn't see the game so Danny could have been in top shape, but that's unlikely. O'Brien ignored minute restrictions with Dunleavy earlier this year as well. Does he not care about self-imposed restrictions, or does he not care about the recommendations of the trainers/doctors, or what? If you're not going to do something, then why even talk about it?

It's yet another question I have about his coaching ability.

Will Galen
01-09-2010, 01:17 AM
There's got to be some kind of weird power struggle going on within the franchise about the direction of things. I'm not sure who wants which players out there, maybe Bird wants Troy out there to sell high or JOB wants his vets to "win now", but the lineup changes don't seem fully based on results at BOTH ends of the court.

You ever consider it's a way of tanking? Bird would never admit it, and neither would JOB. However Bird did give JOB another year. So the agreement could be, Tank this year, win next year.

Peck
01-09-2010, 01:25 AM
You ever consider it's a way of tanking? Bird would never admit it, and neither would JOB. However Bird did give JOB another year. So the agreement could be, Tank this year, win next year.

Of course none of us will ever know for sure but my guess is that they actually wanted and thought that they would compete for either the 7th or 8th seed in the East.

I doubt seriously that Bird or JOB had any real interest in tanking. It's just the way it's gone.

Hoop
01-09-2010, 01:41 AM
Nice job Seth. :cheers:

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/


To bad JOB reverted back to his "old" style for this game.

Squirrelz
01-09-2010, 01:47 AM
We'll see how many of you guys miss Josh McRoberts' 5 points and 6 boards next year when we get John Wall. 19-63 FTW! http://insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rockon.gif

HOOPFANATIC
01-09-2010, 03:13 AM
Here's another thing I don't particularly care for:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100108/SPORTS04/100108030/1004/SPORTS/Timberwolves-spoil-Granger-s-return-to-Pacers-lineup

Now I couldn't see the game so Danny could have been in top shape, but that's unlikely. O'Brien ignored minute restrictions with Dunleavy earlier this year as well. Does he not care about self-imposed restrictions, or does he not care about the recommendations of the trainers/doctors, or what? If you're not going to do something, then why even talk about it?

It's yet another question I have about his coaching ability.

Yeah, I hated to see that as well. Not only for Danny, but Troy played 30 as well.

Would'nt it have been more prudent to simply start with the same lineup that beat Minny a few days ago and worked the vets in.

Unclebuck
01-09-2010, 08:38 AM
The three point shot is the only reason why the Pacers didn't get blown out by 28 points. Those shots gave us a chance plus a good number of those shots were taken I think after the pacers were down by 18

While Josh didn't kill us when he played, I do not understang the uproar over him not playing. He just isn't very good.

Disclaimer - I didn't see the game last night so I don't know what really happened.


I don't think JOB loves Murphy, but who else does he have to play (Josh wouldn't even make 80% of the NBA rosters) Hans is out. O'Brien does like the three point shot, but I'm sure Murph's defense drives him crazy

PacerDude
01-09-2010, 09:13 AM
It's the same thing ..................

Pacers shoot 17 FTs, Minny - 45. (Really ?? WOW !!)

The Pacers starters played 140 minutes and shot 8. Minny - 145 and 33.

Pacers get 36 rebounds, Minny 56.

Pacers front line starters got 17. Minny - 29.

You don't get to the FT line if you're standing outside the 3PT line, waiting for someone to pass you the ball. You're also not in any position to rebound standing out there. It's going to be like this with Granger & Murphy on the court. That's their game - stand around, wait for the ball, shoot a 3. This has got to be the most boring offense to watch.

jhondog28
01-09-2010, 09:27 AM
I just want players on the floor that make the TEAM play better. I really dont care about individual statistics. To me Murphy is all about stuffing his stats. His rebounds seem to mostly be by himself under the basket on the defensive end and he shoots 3s from the perimeter. Neither one of those things he does well benefits the team as a whole. Murphy is a good shooter and loves to bang and he does it well, but to be honest he is a terrible passer, has very slow foot speed and does not like to post up or play down low which will open up the floor for the SF, SG and PG to penetrate and make passes to find our shooters. Murphy is not to blame he just hurts the team when he is on the floor mainly because of what he does not bring.

Seth I agree that he is not the only problem on the team, but I think he should be looked at as the major problem. I know Dun is about the same indiidual defender as Murphy as far as skill level, but at least he tries and take charges to benefit the team, he also can pass, understands spacing and will drive to the basket. I think there games are night and day different.

Unclebuck
01-09-2010, 09:37 AM
and does not like to post up or play down low which will open up the floor for the SF, SG and PG to penetrate and make passes to find our shooters.


I agree with much of your post, but the part I quoted caught my eye.

I don't know if Murph likes to post up or not, but he is terrible at it, he is a face-up shooter whether from 3 or from 15 ft that is what he does.

I don't understand how if he did post up and if he did play down low, how would that open the floor fo the others players to penetrate. Afterall if he is down low that brings two bodies to the painted area just to clog things up. If he is at the three point line that brings a big defneder out and that will allow my room for the other players to penetrate

PacerDude
01-09-2010, 09:48 AM
If he is at the three point line that brings a big defneder out and that will allow my room for the other players to penetrateBut ............ nobody does. It's a 3PT oriented offense. If there was a guy that would drive with a purpose & plan, it would help.

At any given moment on offense, there are usually 3 guys standing outside the arc, waving their hands, waiting for someone to pass them the ball. It just doesn't work in the NBA.

Unclebuck
01-09-2010, 09:54 AM
At any given moment on offense, there are usually 3 guys standing outside the arc, waving their hands, waiting for someone to pass them the ball. It just doesn't work in the NBA.

A number of NBA teams play that way. Whether they have a post player or they run pick and rolls, they have three players outside the three point line. That is what the Suns have done for years, they do a high pick and roll with Amare and nash and then have three three point shooters to space the floor and Nash reacts to the defense. That is probably the hardest play in the NBA to defend over the past 5 years or so. and the reason is it is impossible to defend the nash Mare pick and rol with two guys and yet if you bring a player of one of the three point shooters, Nash will find him for a wide open three.

The cavs, they have players outside the thre point line to open up the lane for Lebron. The Magic have players outside the three point line when they post-up Howard.

It does work in the NBA

Tom White
01-09-2010, 10:36 AM
BTW this idea of showcasing a player is just nonsense.

Every G.M. in the NBA knows about Troy Murphy and T.J. Ford. They know their strength and weaknesses.

Now you might showcase a Josh McRoberts or an A.J. Price where there is not already a scouting book done on them or even Mike Dunleavy as it would need to be seen how his knee would hold up.

But at the end of the day the book on Ford and Murphy was written years ago so either playing them or not playing them will not make a differance in teams desires to get them.

Now what it might do is set the value either a little higher or a little lower because you can claim thier value to your club. In Troy's case it would be high but in Fords case it would be low.

Thank you! I have said this so many times, I could repeat it in my sleep.

The only way showcasing applies to veterans is in the case of seeing that an injury has healed. Even that would take a very short period of time.

BlueNGold
01-09-2010, 10:43 AM
I just want players on the floor that make the TEAM play better. I really dont care about individual statistics. To me Murphy is all about stuffing his stats. His rebounds seem to mostly be by himself under the basket on the defensive end and he shoots 3s from the perimeter. Neither one of those things he does well benefits the team as a whole. Murphy is a good shooter and loves to bang and he does it well, but to be honest he is a terrible passer, has very slow foot speed and does not like to post up or play down low which will open up the floor for the SF, SG and PG to penetrate and make passes to find our shooters. Murphy is not to blame he just hurts the team when he is on the floor mainly because of what he does not bring.

There's a lot of W/L and Plus-Minus evidence to support you. But no amount of evidence will make some people give enough weight to your concerns. They have to be able to recognize how he impacts the defense and the flow of the offense. That requires looking at things they are not focusing on.

When you see another clanker late in the game (i.e. during "winning time"), they look at his scoring for the entire evening and forgive the regularity of his inaccuracy late in games...remembering his crisp trailing 3 in the first half when nobody in the NBA is playing defense.

When you see him waiting for the ball and floating around the perimeter while not helping player and ball movement - the entire game, they see the Murphy stacking up personal stats. You see, it's easier to get defensive boards when you're well rested because you don't run, don't do any dirty work and never see the inside of the 3 point line.

When you see Troy's incredibly bad offensive board numbers...and no Pacers even close to the basket to fight for offensive rebounds (like last night when Kevin Love pulled down a critical board), they remember the crisp 3's by Troy in the meaningless 1st quarter to justify why he's not in the paint.

When you see the matador defense in the first half leading to early fouls for Roy Hibbert, or the reach-in fouls late in the game, or the inability to block anyone's shots....even a guard's, or when you see him play off more athletic PF's to avoid an embarrassing And-One and/or dunk...while it allows the other team to operate their offense without disruption.....they point to some of his steals and the fact he can defend the post against non-post players in some cases.

It's like we live in two different worlds, my friend.

Unclebuck
01-09-2010, 11:17 AM
But no amount of evidence will make some people give enough weight to your concerns. They have to be able to recognize how he impacts the defense and the flow of the offense. That requires looking at things they are not focusing on.

When you see another clanker late in the game (i.e. during "winning time"), they look at his scoring for the entire evening and forgive the regularity of his inaccuracy late in games...remembering his crisp trailing 3 in the first half when nobody in the NBA is playing defense.

When you see him waiting for the ball and floating around the perimeter while not helping player and ball movement - the entire game, they see the Murphy stacking up personal stats. You see, it's easier to get defensive boards when you're well rested because you don't run, don't do any dirty work and never see the inside of the 3 point line.

When you see Troy's incredibly bad offensive board numbers...and no Pacers even close to the basket to fight for offensive rebounds (like last night when Kevin Love pulled down a critical board), they remember the crisp 3's by Troy in the meaningless 1st quarter to justify why he's not in the paint.

When you see the matador defense in the first half leading to early fouls for Roy Hibbert, or the reach-in fouls late in the game, or the inability to block anyone's shots....even a guard's, or when you see him play off more athletic PF's to avoid an embarrassing And-One and/or dunk...while it allows the other team to operate their offense without disruption.....they point to some of his steals and the fact he can defend the post against non-post players in some cases.

It's like we live in two different worlds, my friend.

I'm not really sure if any of this is directed at me or not. If not I apologize for responding.
I see a lot of what you see, although you use a little hyperbole, which is fine. I see Troy's horrible defense, bad passing, overrated rebounding - I see all that. But he is probably our best three point shooter and mid-range shooter - after Danny. He does space the floor and there is real value in that, he isn't a completely clueless team defender, and he isn't as horible overall as some seem to think

I'll be happy when his contract his up and he is no longer on the Pacers roster, I never wanted him from the warriors to begin with .

I will argue against the idea that Murph is the primary reason the pacers lose games

Really though is anyone in this forum a big fan of Murphy?

Brad8888
01-09-2010, 11:41 AM
I'm not really sure if any of this is diected at me or not. If not I apologize for responding.
I see a lot of what you see, although you use a little hyperbole, which is fine. I see Troy's horrible defense, bad passing, overrated rebounding - I see all that. But he is probably our best three point shooter and mid-range shooter - after Danny. He does space the floor and there is real value in that, he isn't a completely clueless team defender, and he isn't as horible overall as some seem to think

I'll be happy when his contract his up and he is no longer on the Pacers roster, I never wanted him from the warriors to begin with .

I will argue against the idea that Murphh is the primary reason the pacers lose games

No, Murph does what he is told and shoots threes whether he is hitting them or not. Danny does the same thing, and Dunleavy will begin to shoot even more of them also. Murph definitely kept it from being even worse than it would have been under ordinary circumstances last night with 5-7 from the arc.

When they hit them, it covers for the poor play that results from the offense first, live by the three, die by the three, defensive agressiveness = fouling to take the opponents out of their shooting rhythm (I'm sorry, FG% limiting defense) system favored by our current, and unfortunately secure, coaching staff.

So, blaming Murphy is not accurate. He takes what he is given to work with and makes the most of it, or fails to depending on whether his shot is falling or not. Blaming O'B for the poor play and resulting losses is much more accurate, but I realize you are still tired of hearing about that.

McRoberts is currently capable of playing PF at a higher level than anybody we have other than Murphy, including Hansbrough and Solo. Moving Danny in there puts Danny way out of position, and makes him have to bang more than he should have to. McRoberts has better overall vision and court recognition than Hansbrough, though both of them need to improve. To not play McRoberts last night is laughable, at best, especially while Hansbrough is still recovering (we assume, though I think I read something in the game thread that Hansbrough had been cleared but was not going to play for some coaching reason).

sportfireman
01-09-2010, 11:49 AM
Price should be our starting pg........... Earl IMO is better off the bench.
game highlights for those who didn't get to see the game.............like me

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gummy
01-09-2010, 01:45 PM
If you're not going to do something, then why even talk about it?

It's yet another question I have about his coaching ability.

:laugh::laugh:

Some of us have been annoyed by that O'Brien trait for quite some time now. It's an underrated part of our problems as far as I am concerned.

BlueNGold
01-09-2010, 01:46 PM
I'm not really sure if any of this is directed at me or not. If not I apologize for responding.
I see a lot of what you see, although you use a little hyperbole, which is fine. I see Troy's horrible defense, bad passing, overrated rebounding - I see all that. But he is probably our best three point shooter and mid-range shooter - after Danny. He does space the floor and there is real value in that, he isn't a completely clueless team defender, and he isn't as horible overall as some seem to think

I'll be happy when his contract his up and he is no longer on the Pacers roster, I never wanted him from the warriors to begin with .

I will argue against the idea that Murph is the primary reason the pacers lose games

Really though is anyone in this forum a big fan of Murphy?

Not really directed your way...although I know your stance.

The bolded parts I would like to comment on. First, I don't think he's as good at shooting the ball as a healthy Dunleavy. But he is a good shooter. Also, while he does space the floor, he stagnates the offensive flow by floating on the perimeter waiting to be passed the ball. Other perimeter players might be a slash risk or at least move across the court with some velocity. Also, the way JOb focuses on the 3 rather than an inside-out game most of the time, it devalues the spacing Murph is able to bring. As for his ability to be a team defender, that's not real helpful when we have multiple bad defenders in the game. Roy is a weakness there and needs to be the defacto "Team Defender". When you throw Dun in there too, the defense worsens. I have no problem with one weak link, that needs help on D, but we have multiple when Troy, Roy and Dun are in the game at the same time....or even just 2 of them. Troy and Roy guarding the paint is like the fox guarding the hen house. It really is a feast for the opposition.

...and this is merely the response to his positive points....

Psycho T
01-09-2010, 02:03 PM
No matter how good or bad Murphy plays, he will still be owed the same exact amount of money. So why should that affect how much playing time he gets?

Because if he doesnt play then its like paying one of your workers for sitting on his butt. He plays so he can somewhat earn his paycheck.

Shade
01-09-2010, 02:24 PM
Because if he doesnt play then its like paying one of your workers for sitting on his butt. He plays so he can somewhat earn his paycheck.

That didn't stop us from exiling Tinsley or Artest.

Or even from benching Ford, for that matter.

Shade
01-09-2010, 02:26 PM
In addition, essentially throwing away games to play inferior players strictly because of how much they make is a good way to lose fans and thus, more long-term income.

PacerDude
01-09-2010, 02:29 PM
It does work in the NBAFor the offense that the other teams run, sure. BUT - Orlando dumps it into Howard. The Suns run the P&R. Cleveland - well, they have LeBron. The Pacers do none of those things.

jhondog28
01-09-2010, 02:50 PM
It just seems as if when Murphy is on the floor we play worse than we do with him off of it. I dont know what the answer is but if you got a a better record with him off the floor then why are you not utilizing that line up. Yes I blame JOB for the lineup decisions, but Murphy also just looks like he gets into modes where he just pulls up and shoots three without looking at how the defense is playing him to take advantages of mismatches or see where other playesr may be positioned to get them involved. I blame Troy for that. I also blame Troy for not moving without the ball. Sure he is slow but his screens off the ball are TERRIBLE. This goes back to making the team better as a whole. He is a big bulky guy and should be able to make a good screen but he doesnt. He roles immediately off his guy and drives to the basket. I dont know if that is to get unto rebound position or just because he is bad at doing it. This is one thing I dont think gets brought up enough is his lack of setting good screens.

Bball
01-09-2010, 02:58 PM
What more evidence does anyone need to see to understand that defense is not a priority to O'Brien? It's all about quick scoring and shooting the 3. He could care less about defense or running a more traditional offense even if it does maximize our team and give us the most potential for success... on both sides of the court...

Why don't we just heave up 3's then run back on defense and ring the perimeter and leave the lane wide open so the other team takes their uncontested bunny layup/dunk and we can get the ball back and go shoot our 3's?

xtacy
01-09-2010, 03:08 PM
and the great love between granger and 3 pt. shooting continues. i hope they get married soon and he becomes tired of shooting 3's.

EvilleJim
01-09-2010, 03:29 PM
The score was 100-99, Minny, after time-out, a quick 3 jacked up, game over!!!!!!!!!

Midcoasted
01-09-2010, 03:44 PM
NOTE TO O'BRIEN, MORWAY, BIRD, SIMON, WHOEVER!!!

The fans are speaking. If we came out with the same game plan we came out for the Orlando game then we would have won this game. We hold Orlando to low low points and win with young guys. Two vets come back and we loose a high scorer to the ****ing T-WOLVES!

It's obvious that they are risking the franchise over this. Murphy should be a guy that you only play late. He always gets too much burn early and his legs are gone by the 4th. Just think, a smart team could put him in at the begging of the 4th and smoke the other team with a few quicck threes. We just don't utilize him in the right way.

If our fans ran the franchise by general consensus right now we would be doing better.

Meanin the only solution is the Pacers have to make trades, sit guys, or have Bird coach and play the players that give us the chance to win.

I don't know the solution. It's a big mess that could easily be turned around with a change of game planning/player rotations. I really believe that is the difference right now.

Run the offense through Roy, no quick shots, no threes, (unless they are WIDE open, and I prefer Rush shooting the fading wide open 3 in the 4th more than I do any Pacer at this point.)

McRoberts and Hansboro should be splitting all the minutes at PF when Tyler returns. Hibbert should be getting starting minutes every night and should be the center of our offense. Everything goes through the big fella. Foster should be his backup when healthy and shoul dbe a spark on offensive boards.

We SHOULD NEVER use a small lineup for an extended period of time. SF/SG should be Granger with Rush and Dunleavy gettin backup minutes at SF or playing at SG. If Dunleavy was struggling I wouldn't hesitate to use Head in his place.

At PG we should be splitting time between Price and Watson and Head should be getting the scrap minutes just for a change of pace offense and we would NEVER have to go small.

We also should shy away from the three. Play inside/outside game through Hibbert and only take 3s when needed. No run down and jack up a quick 3. If there is a better two point shot it should always be taken first. Driving/shooting 2s gets you to the foul line a lot more, which is why we lost last night.

It's kind of silly but it's almost like playing NBA live. It's how I win with the Pacers lack of talent. I always try for the 2 and when I get the defense collapsing I dish for the three. Teams are defending the perimeter. When we don't shoot quick threes we have the highest chance to win. Granger needs to shoot more mid range shots.

Oh I didnt mention Murphy or Ford. Well who knows anymore...

jhondog28
01-09-2010, 03:51 PM
If you have Granger healthy you do not play through Hibbert. You have Granger setting up Roy but not the other way around. I agree those two are the go to players right now and I would especially love seeing McBob getting minutes mainly because he is a better passer than Troy and much more athletic he is just a worse shooter. But our problem is not the lack of shooters it is the inability to play inside out which is what this team needs. I agree with most of your post though. Many good points. I would just have Granger initiating the offense ONLY and I mean ONLY if he drives and does not just come down the court and jack up the three. He is a much better player than that.

PacerDude
01-09-2010, 03:52 PM
and the great love between granger and 3 pt. shooting continues. Trade him while his perceived value is still high.

Notice I didn't use green.

PaceBalls
01-09-2010, 04:37 PM
Trade him while his perceived value is still high.

Notice I didn't use green.

PacerDude, son of Dueteronomy of Gath. You have been found guilty by the elders of this board, for uttering trade possibilities for Danny Granger, and so are labeled as a BLASPHEMER!!

MIaORknS1Dk

PacerDude
01-09-2010, 06:17 PM
PacerDude, son of Dueteronomy of Gath. You have been found guilty by the elders of this board, for uttering trade possibilities for Danny Granger, and so are labeled as a BLASPHEMER!!

MIaORknS1DkI've been stoned before. :D

But hey, if you want to hang the franchise on a 40% shooter that rarely wanders inside the 3PT arc, well, that's your choice.

d_c
01-09-2010, 06:33 PM
Also, while he does space the floor, he stagnates the offensive flow by floating on the perimeter waiting to be passed the ball. Other perimeter players might be a slash risk or at least move across the court with some velocity

Morever, the thing about Murphy as a shooter/scorer is that he's never been a guy you can run plays for or really make the other team have to adjust their strategy to.

He's basically a guy who you hand the ball to and hope he happens to be hot at the time. You can't run him through screens. You can't really make his guy chase him around the court. You can't run plays for him off the ball. As you say, he's basically a stationary guy.

In crunch time, that's why he becomes a much easier shooter to guard than a guy like Rip Hamilton or Peja from their primes. That's why it happens so often that he's on fire for much of the first 3 quarters and then isn't heard from again in the 4th. You could run plays for guys like Peja and Hamilton. You could get them open even in crunchtime when the opposing defense would clamp down.

With Murphy, the other team just finally starts to focus on him and just sticks a man on him and then he's shut out. Just go back and watch the Jazz game from last year when he was 8 for 8 from 3 in the first half and didn't hit another one the rest of the game. That's because the Jazz simply started to guard him.

Going beyond Murphy, it's areason why HOW you score your points is probably more important than how much you score.

Hoop
01-09-2010, 07:23 PM
I've been stoned before. :D

But hey, if you want to hang the franchise on a 40% shooter that rarely wanders inside the 3PT arc, well, that's your choice.

Everyone needs an occasional stoning.

We're not hanging our franchise on a 40% shooter, we're hanging it on a coach that is ruining our players by NOT instilling good shot selection, teamwork and defense. He's either turning Danny into a chucker or letting him become one. Well coached teams do not take this many bad shots.

BlueNGold
01-09-2010, 10:40 PM
Morever, the thing about Murphy as a shooter/scorer is that he's never been a guy you can run plays for or really make the other team have to adjust their strategy to.

He's basically a guy who you hand the ball to and hope he happens to be hot at the time. You can't run him through screens. You can't really make his guy chase him around the court. You can't run plays for him off the ball. As you say, he's basically a stationary guy.

In crunch time, that's why he becomes a much easier shooter to guard than a guy like Rip Hamilton or Peja from their primes. That's why it happens so often that he's on fire for much of the first 3 quarters and then isn't heard from again in the 4th. You could run plays for guys like Peja and Hamilton. You could get them open even in crunchtime when the opposing defense would clamp down.

With Murphy, the other team just finally starts to focus on him and just sticks a man on him and then he's shut out. Just go back and watch the Jazz game from last year when he was 8 for 8 from 3 in the first half and didn't hit another one the rest of the game. That's because the Jazz simply started to guard him.

Going beyond Murphy, it's areason why HOW you score your points is probably more important than how much you score.

Oh my. Great post d_c.

BTW, in another thread I found Troy's quarter by quarter stats. All of his stats fall after the first and they are at their worst in the 4th quarter. These are enormous issues that demonstrate just how damaging he is to a team trying to win games. It is absolutely no wonder we have a far better record with him out.

BTW, I think Pacer management recognize this completely. I think Troy stays on the court because of money. What do you think? This is such an easy call to make...yet he keeps losing games for us. Honestly, I think they felt the same way about TJ...but they had another fairly expensive vet sitting out (Watson)...so they could justify benching TJ....and perhaps he's less money anyway. We all know they've been trying to deal TJ for years...and apparently benching him is a sign they have given up on it.