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pwee31
01-05-2010, 10:32 PM
Hey Gary Coleman, the Pacers were smoked by the Knicks Sunday night, but bounced back to defeat the Orlando Magic tonight!


http://i48.tinypic.com/1gkdwz.gif

hoopsforlife
01-05-2010, 10:34 PM
Roy dominated Dwight Howard tonight. That was a very enjoyable game...

Spirit
01-05-2010, 10:35 PM
Roy looked like the better Center tonight.. very promising, and surprising to say the least.

McKeyFan
01-05-2010, 10:35 PM
This game did not happen.

The five game win streak players only beat teams with terrible records.

Putnam
01-05-2010, 10:35 PM
Roy dominated Dwight Howard tonight. That was a very enjoyable game...

^^^^ Yup!

CableKC
01-05-2010, 10:35 PM
We won cuz Hibbert was hungry......we kept Dwight from being a factor in the game by keeping him in foul trouble.....Vince was ineffective on the offensive end.

Good win by the 4th to 11th rotational players at home.

Justin Tyme
01-05-2010, 10:36 PM
DEFENSE DEFENSE DEFENSE! Who was that masked rider? Or who was that team in Pacers unis? It wasn't the team that played in NY!!! Congrats to the Pacers! Such an enjoyable game to watch.

hoopsforlife
01-05-2010, 10:37 PM
I believe the difference tonight was TJ's stellar on the bench performance and Troy Murphy being able to defend and hold a spot in the stands. Great job guys. :)

LG33
01-05-2010, 10:37 PM
The Magic was subpar this evening.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/SoupNazi0055/112_gob_magic_72.jpg

I'm interested to see who gets Trophy's trophies.

Putnam
01-05-2010, 10:38 PM
Moses and the burning bush?

speakout4
01-05-2010, 10:39 PM
Granger, Murphy, Foster, and Ford were just awesome tonight!

pwee31
01-05-2010, 10:40 PM
I would like to add, if Bird would've somehow pulled off the Tinsley for Redick deal, I would've granted him GM immunity. For being close, he gets a little credit, but great win tonight. It was actually a good night to be a Pacers fan!

gummy
01-05-2010, 10:40 PM
Hey, can we stick to what did happen and enjoy the win instead of alluding to what might have happened if certain other players had played?

Hibbert was fantastic and Rush was very good. I really enjoyed watching those two tonight.

Justin Tyme
01-05-2010, 10:41 PM
I HAVE to give credit when due... Roy looked great against Howard. He hit a couple shots that you knew it was his night. Congrats Roy for a great game.

Deadshot
01-05-2010, 10:41 PM
The Magic was subpar this evening.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/SoupNazi0055/112_gob_magic_72.jpg

I'm interested to see who gets Trophy's trophies.

"Illusion, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money... "

But seriously, what a great game tonight. Physical on both ends.

trey
01-05-2010, 10:41 PM
I missed the game but sounds like Pacers got pretty lucky. Hopefully it wasn't luck... and hopefully it isn't just a mirage to cause false hope again. But I bet they just got lucky.

KnicksRGarbage
01-05-2010, 10:42 PM
This was great. I had to work but followed the game as closely as I could. This would've been wonderful to be at. And I've always thought very highly of Roy. I hope we can give him more opportunities to shine in the future. Now if we don't have to play back to back games 2 days in a row the rest of the season maybe we'll be okay-ish!
No.. Hopefully something has come to light within the team ie TJ on the bench and such and maybe the Pacers are gonna turn something around a bit.
Now, I did say a bit.

LG33
01-05-2010, 10:44 PM
Hibbert was fantastic and Rush was very good. I really enjoyed watching those two tonight.

My "television" was cutting in and out all night so I wasn't able to get a read on how much of Carter and Rashard's poor performance could be chocked up to poor offense - either bad shot selection or simply missed open shots - and how much was the result of tough D from Dahntay and Brandon. Any elucidation would be appreciated.

Justin Tyme
01-05-2010, 10:45 PM
Hibbert was fantastic and Rush was very good.


Both played like the picks they should be. I don't want to jinx them, so I'll just leave it at that.

Putnam
01-05-2010, 10:45 PM
Mark Boyle just said it:

"The Pacers are 7-3 in games Murphy sits out."


.

gummy
01-05-2010, 10:45 PM
I missed the game but sounds like Pacers got pretty lucky. Hopefully it wasn't luck... and hopefully it isn't just a mirage to cause false hope again. But I bet they just got lucky.


The Pacers played hard on both ends of the floor for the entire game. There's usually some luck involved in a win but I'm a believer in the idea that you make your own luck by hustling. The Blue & Gold did just that.

LG33
01-05-2010, 10:46 PM
"Illusion, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money... "

But seriously, what a great game tonight. Physical on both ends.

"But still...where did the lighter fluid come from?"

I enjoy watching Hibbert succeed because he enjoys it.

BornReady
01-05-2010, 10:47 PM
I missed the game but sounds like Pacers got pretty lucky. Hopefully it wasn't luck... and hopefully it isn't just a mirage to cause false hope again. But I bet they just got lucky.

the pacers did not get lucky, they legit fought and beat out the magic

our future dleague/nba starting lineup:
aj price
brandon rush
danny granger
tyler hansbrough
roy hibbert

right now, i LOOOVE the sound of that ^^

gummy
01-05-2010, 10:48 PM
My "television" was cutting in and out all night so I wasn't able to get a read on how much of Carter and Rashard's poor performance could be chocked up to poor offense - either bad shot selection or simply missed open shots - and how much was the result of tough D from Dahntay and Brandon. Any elucidation would be appreciated.

The Magic announcers said Carter had a rough shooting night the previous game as well. Still, he was able to get off some successful shots while Head was guarding him. As soon as Brandon got back in he went cold again. At least 2 of Brandon's 4 steals came off of closely guarding Carter.

The Magic did not get Rashard involved as much as they could have on offense but DJones stuck to him like glue when he did see the ball. My guestimate-o-matic says 30% bad offense/poor shot selection and 70% kick *** D from Dahntay and Brandon.

D-BONE
01-05-2010, 10:48 PM
Loved it! Energy! More than made up for that unacceptable NYC debacle (injuries or otherwise).

Hibbert, Rush, Watson, Head, Jones w/ AJ getting some backup minutes. I truly relished seeing that group.

Absolutely nothing personal against them, but I look forward to the day when none (or very few) of Murhphy, Dunleavy, Foster, and TJ are here. At very least the remainders should be no more than role players. Not heavy minute starters.

vnzla81
01-05-2010, 10:48 PM
I hope and pray that JOB stays with this same starting team + Danny for the rest of the season.......:pray:

BlueNGold
01-05-2010, 10:49 PM
Mark Boyle just said it:

"The Pacers are 7-3 in games Murphy sits out."


.

I'm hoarse from singing that song. Next...

Infinite MAN_force
01-05-2010, 10:49 PM
Mark Boyle just said it:

"The Pacers are 7-3 in games Murphy sits out."


.

The case continues to build. Come on Larry, you know what to do.

hoopsforlife
01-05-2010, 10:50 PM
I got to see the game tonight on TV. They actually played a very good game with what looked like a plan. It was different than the other games I have been able to see this year. They went to Hibbert a lot in the first half and he responded with a stellar performance. They started to shoot jumpers in the second half too much, although, giving JOB credit, he pulled MD out before he could completely destroy the lead and momentum.

It was a well played, fun game to see..

pwee31
01-05-2010, 10:52 PM
Is it just me, or did Luther Head have a quiet 18 pts? I guess Roy and Rush really caught my attention

gummy
01-05-2010, 10:53 PM
And props to Dun for rebounding on a night when not much else was clicking for him.

Shawne#4
01-05-2010, 10:53 PM
The young guys made a statement to O'Brien tonight. I'm really interested to see how he distributes playing time once Foster and Murphy come back, obviously with the hopes that their minutes decrease. Then again, I had the same hopes after the 5-game winning streak.

gummy
01-05-2010, 10:54 PM
Is it just me, or did Luther Head have a quiet 18 pts? I guess Roy and Rush really caught my attention

I believe much of that was in the 1st half, that's probably why it's less prominent in your head. :)

travmil
01-05-2010, 10:55 PM
Man how can you not love what we saw out of Roy tonight? He's been playing well and showing something for a while but this? That wasn't some guy off the street, that was Dwight effin Howard! I don't wanna talk like he's the next coming of Kareem or something but boy was that an impressive game out if him tonight.

Sookie
01-05-2010, 10:57 PM
That was a great effort from all of them. In front of a larger crowd too.

Hibbert, Rush and Price - you can see the potential in that youth. All of them had some very good moments.

Rush- really became aggressive in the second half and scored. He's a fantastic defensive player as well. It shows you though, a good offense *pound theball in the post* fits him much better.

Price - was quite good in the first half. Had some weird turnovers in the second, but he seemed to get his mind out of it, and made a good play to end the half. *setting up Dun*

Hibbert - Hibbert just outplayed Dwight Howard. Good for him. Really good for him.

The vets acted like vets. Solid and Smart. Even Dun at the end.

Dun - missing shots most of the night, but he made big ones.
Earl- also made big ones, and settled the team down. I'm concerned though. He's logging huge minutes. If JOB doesn't want to play AJ for more than 15, he should play Diener for five somewhere. Or if he wants to play Watson most of the fourth, then bring AJ in earlier in the third. Especially with back to backs coming up.
Jones was solid, very good defensively.
Head has been good for about twenty points for a while now. Really good for him.
I really liked the team effort on the boards too.

Jon Theodore
01-05-2010, 10:57 PM
Roy is officially the center of the future. He loves to play the game (there is a lot to be said for that) and he is an intelligent kid with a lot of great qualities. I thought it was interesting to see how big of a deal Rick Kamla and Steve Smith were making out of Roy after the game on NBAtv. He truly did dominate Dwight Howard.

Brandon Rush also looked great out there on defense and knocked down some critical shots in the third quarter. Dahntay Jones looked like the Dahntay from earlier in the season (he must of really not liked playing with TJ Ford).



Dunleavy looks better, still not great. We MUST draft/trade for another young PG. Watson is nothing more than a 1 year rental as far as I am concerned...watch out when this team has a real point guard. I am liking the future of this team, assuming we can turn Foster/Murphy into some assets, we are looking like a young team on the rise.

vnzla81
01-05-2010, 10:57 PM
the starting team for the rest of the year should be Watson, Rush,Danny(when he comes back)for now Head, TH and Roy

gummy
01-05-2010, 10:59 PM
Earl- also made big ones, and settled the team down. I'm concerned though. He's logging huge minutes. If JOB doesn't want to play AJ for more than 15, he should play Diener for five somewhere. Or if he wants to play Watson most of the fourth, then bring AJ in earlier in the third. Especially with back to backs coming up.


Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. That will be an important adjustment to make in the coming week.

Hoop
01-05-2010, 11:00 PM
........ all this and I got to see monkeys riding dogs at halftime. Who in their right mind doesn't love a Pacer win and monkeys.

Dr. Awesome
01-05-2010, 11:02 PM
Mark Boyle just said it:

"The Pacers are 7-3 in games Murphy sits out."


.

Maybe we should keep Murphy just to get a good draft pick out of him. If we trade him and end up with the 10th pick or around there again, I'll be pissed. We need a top 5 pick to go with our core, at worst case, top 7.

Dr. Awesome
01-05-2010, 11:02 PM
........ all this and I got to see monkeys riding dogs at halftime. Who in their right mind doesn't love a Pacer win and monkeys.

Great avatar.

BlueNGold
01-05-2010, 11:11 PM
the starting team for the rest of the year should be Watson, Rush,Danny(when he comes back)for now Head, TH and Roy

I would not complain if Price got more minutes. It's just a blessing TJ's not playing.

When Murph comes back, it's going to be interesting. Considering we are 7-3 without him...and plain terrible with him...only a fool would put him out there. You have to at least roll with whatever works. We shall see.

Love to see Tyler out there...but as a 6th man....I think this is the best team:

Price, Rush, D Jones, Granger, Hibbert

Unclebuck
01-05-2010, 11:14 PM
This game did not happen.

The five game win streak players only beat teams with terrible records.

how many of these players played in the 5 game streak, Jones, Watson and Roy. . Head didn't play much, Mike didn't play at all. Seems like you are just grouping all good games into the 5 games streak, so now it is the 7 wins separate from the other games.

Pacers played very well tonight, probably the best game of the season

McKeyFan
01-05-2010, 11:16 PM
how many of these players played in the 5 game streak, Jones, Watson and Roy. . Head didn't play much, Mike didn't play at all. Seems like you are just grouping all good games into the 5 games streak, so now it is the 7 wins separate from the other games.

Pacers played very well tonight, probably the best game of the season

Head was a factor in the win streak.

Dunleavy was not so good tonight, so he doesn't help your argument.

You are more stubborn than Jim O'Stubborn.

BPump33
01-05-2010, 11:16 PM
Just FYI, when Dwight fouled out he came over to the bench and got a lot of razzing from the fans. He then dropped the DX "suck it" sign on the crowd.

gummy
01-05-2010, 11:17 PM
how many of these players played in the 5 game streak, Jones, Watson and Roy. . Head didn't play much, Mike didn't play at all. Seems like you are just grouping all good games into the 5 games streak, so now it is the 7 wins separate from the other games.

Pacers played very well tonight, probably the best game of the season

I'm not weighing in on the credibility or importance of this streak thing one way or another anymore, I think the discussion is just so played out on both sides. However, if memory serves, Rush played quite a bit during those 5 games and Head was a factor off the bench.

Major Cold
01-05-2010, 11:19 PM
Rush looked real good tonight. I remember people saying that he would be even more useless off the bench. It has seemed to perk him up.


Watson is a mini-Jack. When I say him try to box out Howard I had to laugh.

BlueNGold
01-05-2010, 11:19 PM
how many of these players played in the 5 game streak, Jones, Watson and Roy. . Head didn't play much, Mike didn't play at all. Seems like you are just grouping all good games into the 5 games streak, so now it is the 7 wins separate from the other games.

Pacers played very well tonight, probably the best game of the season

It all comes down to less reliance on a finesse PF and more defense and scrapping. It's a different way to play the game...and tends to produce better defensive efforts. No, we are not going to play well every game...but I think there will be more times we play better.

PaceBalls
01-05-2010, 11:19 PM
how many of these players played in the 5 game streak, Jones, Watson and Roy. . Head didn't play much, Mike didn't play at all. Seems like you are just grouping all good games into the 5 games streak, so now it is the 7 wins separate from the other games.

Pacers played very well tonight, probably the best game of the season

Definately the highlight of the season, that or that Boston game. I would say this game was for me, just because of all the adversity this team has faced, especially after losing to the Knicks by 40+ points... to come back and have a win like this is special.

Seeing them feed Roy in the post was just wonderful to behold, we all knew it would work and that the guy can play. Let's hope Jim keeps the focus on Roy in the upcoming games and maybe we can salvage a bit of this season.

NapTonius Monk
01-05-2010, 11:21 PM
I think Head has been good as the starting 2. I really like him there.

imawhat
01-05-2010, 11:22 PM
UGH, League Pass changed the game channel at some point today. As of this morning it was on channel 714.

I've now missed (apparently) the 2 best Pacers games of the past 12 months: this one and the last game of the season vs. the Bucks.

Glad to hear they played well. The statlines look pretty good for a couple player, and the game thread seemed pretty positive overall. Very nice...the Magic are a huge matchup problem for us.

owl
01-05-2010, 11:23 PM
how many of these players played in the 5 game streak, Jones, Watson and Roy. . Head didn't play much, Mike didn't play at all. Seems like you are just grouping all good games into the 5 games streak, so now it is the 7 wins separate from the other games.

Pacers played very well tonight, probably the best game of the season

Along with the ones you mentioned if they had played some of the other reserves we are seeing it might have been a 7 or 8 game win streak. I think the point being that
the players who are currently playing are better defenders and team players and just have
better chemistry.

MyFavMartin
01-05-2010, 11:26 PM
Roy didn't get called on some stuff he normally gets caught with, methinks.

And how many times did Earl jump up in the air with the ball and not have someone to pass to? Guess he is JJack's heir apparent.

AJ didn't look good but didn't look bad for a rook.

Rush looked good and will look better when he's playing at SG and not having an athletic, long Pietrus on him at SF.

Barnes should have been thrown out of the game for that throw down of Roy. Hopefully the league takes notice and issues some kind of suspension. Roy really could have been hurt on that.

I was holding my breath for the entire fourth, but good job Pacers.

DaveP63
01-05-2010, 11:26 PM
I foresee a day when Head and his 20 points are put back on the end of the bench with McRoberts and Roy so we can play 5 smurfs who shoot contested threes. Maybe I'm just being cynical...

Unclebuck
01-05-2010, 11:27 PM
Head was a factor in the win streak.

Dunleavy was not so good tonight, so he doesn't help your argument.

You are more stubborn than Jim O'Stubborn.

I just don't know how you can include games that are occurring two months later "into the streak' and act like it is all one in the same. this is not nearly the same team as it was back in November.

Head is playing very well, he knows how to play.

Here are his stats for the 5 games in November that we will never forget
Mins - 17, 0, 18, 19, 11. Pts - 3, 2, 4, 2

PaceBalls
01-05-2010, 11:29 PM
I think Head has been good as the starting 2. I really like him there.

I think Head is good to have out there when Danny isn't, but I really don't like him as a starter. He is good for where we are at now because he has the guts to take a shot and is a decent shooter, but he calls his number alot and misses guys who are open in preference of his own shot. He is the opposite of Brandon. Brandon plays solid D and only takes shots when he is in rhythm or wide open, and even then will pass first sometimes. Luther isnt that great of a defender, but he will jack up the shots with abandon.

BlueNGold
01-05-2010, 11:29 PM
...the players who are currently playing are better defenders and team players and just have
better chemistry.

^This. I think these particular players like playing together and wouldn't mind Granger and Hans coming back in the mix. In fact, I think the moves the Pacers are making are right in line with what I want. But it will be very interesting when Troy returns because a decision will need to be made.

If Troy is not traded, I think the decision will be to put him back in the starting lineup and you will see Roy's season go down the tubes. JMHO.

Sookie
01-05-2010, 11:32 PM
I just don't know how you can include games that are occurring two months later "into the streak' and act like it is all one in the same. this is not nearly the same team as it was back in November.

Head is playing very well, he knows how to play.

Here are his stats for the 5 games in November that we will never forget
Mins - 17, 0, 18, 19, 11. Pts - 3, 2, 4, 2

Listen, all people mean by "play the rotation of the five game win streak"
is

"don't play Murphy."

And Indiana is 7-3 without him, including the five game win streak.

I'm not sure how the team feels about playing with Murphy. Seems clear that quite a few players wanted to play with Price and Watson over Ford.

Honestly, I think playing Murphy would be fine, if Murphy was limited in minutes. And then when Granger comes back, have a lineup of.

Watson/Price
Head/Rush
Jones/Dun
Granger/Hans
Hibbert/Solo

Granted, if Dun keeps playing the way he has been *although he was better tonight* you could mix around Head/Rush/Jones and Granger at the 2 or 3.

Sookie
01-05-2010, 11:35 PM
I think Head is good to have out there when Danny isn't, but I really don't like him as a starter. He is good for where we are at now because he has the guts to take a shot and is a decent shooter, but he calls his number alot and misses guys who are open in preference of his own shot. He is the opposite of Brandon. Brandon plays solid D and only takes shots when he is in rhythm or wide open, and even then will pass first sometimes. Luther isnt that great of a defender, but he will jack up the shots with abandon.

I think the Pacer's would be better off having
Price and Rush together as a backcourt and Watson and Head.
Watson and Rush might be too passive at times. Head and Price could work, but I think Rush and Price are a better match.

Unclebuck
01-05-2010, 11:36 PM
Listen, all people mean by "play the rotation of the five game win streak"
is

"don't play Murphy."

And Indiana is 7-3 without him, including the five game win streak.



It would have made things a lot easier if they had just said that.

Although I do think it is fair to look at the other variables in comparing games Murph played vs games he didn't play

Of course I could turn this whole thing upside down and suggest that JOB is a great coach in the 5 game winning streak and in the two wins this week

McKeyFan
01-05-2010, 11:38 PM
I just don't know how you can include games that are occurring two months later "into the streak' and act like it is all one in the same. this is not nearly the same team as it was back in November.

Head is playing very well, he knows how to play.

Here are his stats for the 5 games in November that we will never forget
Mins - 17, 0, 18, 19, 11. Pts - 3, 2, 4, 2

The "win streak" formula is heavy minutes for:

Hibbert
Watson
Solo
Rush
Dahntay


After the win streak, Dahntay's minutes were cut.

After the win streak, Solo hit the bench.

After the win streak, Hibbert got yanked quickly and his minutes were reduced.

After the win streak, TJ started again (no TJ wasn't that big of a factor in the win streak. I disagree with your arguments.)

No, the recent two out of three victories are not the EXACT same players. But, generally, it's a very similar line up. You know it. But for some reason you are being Buck O'Stubborn.

BlueNGold
01-05-2010, 11:39 PM
Listen, all people mean by "play the rotation of the five game win streak"
is

"don't play Murphy."

And Indiana is 7-3 without him, including the five game win streak.

I'm not sure how the team feels about playing with Murphy. Seems clear that quite a few players wanted to play with Price and Watson over Ford.

Honestly, I think playing Murphy would be fine, if Murphy was limited in minutes. And then when Granger comes back, have a lineup of.

Watson/Price
Head/Rush
Jones/Dun
Granger/Hans
Hibbert/Solo

Granted, if Dun keeps playing the way he has been *although he was better tonight* you could mix around Head/Rush/Jones and Granger at the 2 or 3.

Well said. You might also add that Troy has the worst plus-minus of any Pacer this season and we were way above .500 last year without him available.

BTW, we have an opening for Executive Editor for the 5 game win streak club. You seem to have exceptional writing skills, including good content. If interested, send your resume to benchmurphy@victory.com.

purdue101
01-05-2010, 11:42 PM
^This. I think these particular players like playing together and wouldn't mind Granger and Hans coming back in the mix. In fact, I think the moves the Pacers are making are right in line with what I want. But it will be very interesting when Troy returns because a decision will need to be made.

If Troy is not traded, I think the decision will be to put him back in the starting lineup and you will see Roy's season go down the tubes. JMHO.

I've been beating this dead horse for weeks now (Murphy).

I agree 110%, Danny and Hans should gel very well with the current unit. Danny at the 4 would be ideal. Bring Dun off the bench.

I will be frustrated beyone belief if Murphy is thrown back into the lineup. Go pull the boxscores - Hibbert is a dud when playing with Murphy. Our team is downright awful to boot. JOB can't be that stupid, can he?

I hope Larry forces his hand and makes a trade. I would trade Murphy TODAY for a 2011 expiring D- bench player, don't even need a pick. Hell, I may even throw in a 2nd rounder just to get him off this roster. His suckiness is infectious on this team.

Sookie
01-05-2010, 11:44 PM
It would have made things a lot easier if they had just said that.

Although I do think it is fair to look at the other variables in comparing games Murph played vs games he didn't play

Of course I could turn this whole thing upside down and suggest that JOB is a great coach in the 5 game winning streak and in the two wins this week

I'd be curious to hear that.

The argument is that we should go back to the style and lack of certain players to win games.

There are different possible combinations with players. Not so much with just one coach.

gummy
01-05-2010, 11:45 PM
I hope Larry forces his hand and makes a trade. I would trade Murphy TODAY for a 2011 expiring D- bench player, don't even need a pick. Hell, I may even throw in a 2nd rounder just to get him off this roster. His suckiness is infectious on this team.

I'm not gonna cry by any means if Murph is moved, but we ought to be able to get a little more for him than that. Also, I think Murph's shooting could be a valuable asset in 15 or so minutes off the bench. The guy does have skills and could conceivably be used in a way that masks his defensive shortcomings. My problem is not so much with Troy Murphy but with JOB for playing him 30+ min per game, especially when it is clear that his shot is often off in the 4th quarter because his legs are tired by then.

Unclebuck
01-05-2010, 11:52 PM
The "win streak" formula is heavy minutes for:

Hibbert
Watson
Solo
Rush
Dahntay


After the win streak, Dahntay's minutes were cut.

After the win streak, Solo hit the bench.

After the win streak, Hibbert got yanked quickly and his minutes were reduced.

After the win streak, TJ started again (no TJ wasn't that big of a factor in the win streak. I disagree with your arguments.)

No, the recent two out of three victories are not the EXACT same players. But, generally, it's a very similar line up. You know it. But for some reason you are being Buck O'Stubborn.

I know most are tired of the discussion of the "5-games streak" but for the record, I have not started 1 thread with a topic even remotely resembling anything to do with the 5 games played in November. I was more than willing to drop the whole topic months ago, then weeks ago, then a week ago, then a few days ago, and then I figured surely this topic would die out surely it would afterall this is a mostly different group of players from those who played key roles in November.

Back to your post. You now want me to go back through each box scores for the games after the streak? maybe tomorrow. The only similar lineup factor is Murphy is out, other than that there are very few similarities.

sorry guys, blame me for keeping this going, but there are times I can't just let posts go unchallenged when I think they are just wrong

purdue101
01-05-2010, 11:54 PM
I'm not gonna cry by any means if Murph is moved, but we ought to be able to get a little more for him than that. Also, I think Murph's shooting could be a valuable asset in 15 or so minutes off the bench. The guy does have skills and could conceivably be used in a way that masks his defensive shortcomings. My problem is not so much with Troy Murphy but with JOB for playing him 30+ min per game, especially when it is clear that his shot is often off in the 4th quarter because his legs are tired by then.

I think I just value Murphy less than anyone else on this board. I watch a lot of NBA basketball and it's plain as day to me that this team is completely out of synch with him on the court.........which is proven by the +/- and W/L.

I pray everynight that Ferry gives us Z.

McKeyFan
01-05-2010, 11:55 PM
Of course I could turn this whole thing upside down and suggest that JOB is a great coach in the 5 game winning streak and in the two wins this week

I think JOB has done some good things.

I don't think he's a terrible coach. I think he's a decent coach with a couple of very big, glaring blind spots.

One of those is missing the fact that certain players on the floor bring a much greater winning percentage. Yes, when he has those players on the floor, he has done some nice coaching.

PaceBalls
01-05-2010, 11:56 PM
UB,
It's too late to stop it now anyway. The 5 game win streak has reached mythical levels just because of how badly things have gone since then, and of course your stubborn opposition to join our new religion. :borg:

Unclebuck
01-05-2010, 11:58 PM
Well said. You might also add that Troy has the worst plus-minus of any Pacer this season and we were way above .500 last year without him available.



the sad thing is I don't like Murphy, never have I was one of the first to cry about his horible defense when we acquired him, still have nightmares of him trying to guard Rasheed Wallace.

What was the Pacers record without Murphy last season? I do know he missed 9 games.

jeffg-body
01-05-2010, 11:58 PM
Nice game both ways tonight. I was impressed with all of the youngsters and their poise. Roy was huge, the man tonight. Brandon had that look of confidence again, AJ looked good and was under control, and McBob came in to play the energizer bunny role from time to time. All in all it was a great game to watch and root for our young guns. A few more draft picks and getting a quality FA in the next few years will make this team special again.

CableKC
01-06-2010, 12:02 AM
Mark Boyle just said it:

"The Pacers are 7-3 in games Murphy sits out."
.
If we used Murphy like a PF and coupled him with a more Athletic Big Man ( McRoberts, Solo or Foster ) that can properly defend the interior....while not overexerting him by playing him too many minutes.....instead of actually overusing him as a Center where he's the biggest Player out there manning/defending the paint and opposing Big Man......I'd be okay with him in the lineup. I guess the main thing is that he's still a better scoring option then any other Big Man ( other then Hungry Hungry Hibbert, of course ). We're just using him the wrong way IMHO.

Hoop
01-06-2010, 12:03 AM
Hibbert with 3 out of 4 games over 20 pts and 2 new career highs!!!
Hibbert has his faults, like every other player, but is there any question that he is OUR best center.

I hope once and for all JOB can see this and he never benches him again for so called "bad" matchups. Even in the disastrous New York game were David Lee is one of the worst match ups possible, Roy managed to at least be a factor with 7 assists and 0 turnovers.

Anthem
01-06-2010, 12:07 AM
I hope and pray that JOB stays with this same starting team + Danny for the rest of the season.......:pray:
With Danny starting in the place of who? Dunleavy or Jones?

purdue101
01-06-2010, 12:09 AM
the sad thing is I don't like Murphy, never have I was one of the first to cry about his horible defense when we acquired him, still have nightmares of him trying to guard Rasheed Wallace.

What was the Pacers record without Murphy last season? I do know he missed 9 games.


If we used Murphy like a PF and coupled him with a more Athletic Big Man ( McRoberts, Solo or Foster ) that can properly defend the interior....instead of actually being used as a Center where he's the biggest Player out there manning the paint......I'd be okay with him in the lineup. I guess the main thing is that he's still a better scoring option then any other Big Man ( other then Hungry Hungry Hibbert, of course ). We're just using him the wrong way IMHO.

The problem is Murphy is built like a PF with no PF game. He's soft on defense and his post game is obsolete. I haven't seen Troy post up once all year. He's a one trick pony - 6'11" shooter with diminshed supporting skill.

Danny should be our PF until Hans is ready. Danny is more versatile on offense. It's not like we lose anything on D. We just need to make sure that Rush is in that lineup as he is a long wing who will rebound.

Sookie
01-06-2010, 12:13 AM
UB,
It's too late to stop it now anyway. The 5 game win streak has reached mythical levels just because of how badly things have gone since then, and of course your stubborn opposition to join our new religion. :borg:

Honestly, it's because it's just weird

Teams don't go on a five game winstreak

than proceed to only win four games in the next two months, until something drastic happens. *Murphy hurt, Ford being benched - which btw, in the 3 games he's gotten time, AJ is averaging about 9 points a little over 3 assists, and 3 rebounds...in 15 minutes. That's what Ford averaged in 30 minutes.*

And then proceed to go 2-1. Now, NY was an *** kicking, but I think that was mostly a being really tired and not having the players to make a comeback thing.

Add to it, that the team wins 2 when the two players that most of the board wanted to see traded, aren't playing..well..people make connections too the five game win streak.

Ford was a factor in some of the streak. He was also injured in one of the games. But quite frankly, he's been terrible since.

But more importantly Murphy was out the entire win streak, and has been out in these recent wins.

I don't think he needs to stop playing. In fact, 15 minutes to score a bit..wouldnt' be bad. My preference would be for a Granger/Hans PF rotation. But I think with Granger out..when everyone else gets healthy, our team can do okay with a Hans/Murphy/McRoberts rotation. So long as Murphy doesn't play 30 minutes. And preferably, so that he doesn't play with Hibbert.

I think that's the most important thing. Hibbert needs someone to help him defensively, or at least someone who doesn't routinely get beat. Jones does a better job defensively on a PF than Murphy does. Murphy gets beat, and Hibbert ends up fouling. Keeping Hibbert in with Hans/McRoberts or Granger is key. Let Murphy play his minutes with Solo.

gummy
01-06-2010, 12:13 AM
With Danny starting in the place of who? Dunleavy or Jones?

Depends on Danny's D for me. If it's as sub-par as it was earlier this season then I'd want to see him replace Dun. If he can hold his own I'm OK with him replacing DJones to start. I'd like to see Danny eating into Murph's PF minutes for some match-ups.

vnzla81
01-06-2010, 12:13 AM
With Danny starting in the place of who? Dunleavy or Jones?

dun of course............;)

Trophy
01-06-2010, 12:14 AM
Roy = gold. No explanation needed.

Luther = silver. He deserves some credit as well.

DGPR
01-06-2010, 12:15 AM
This is the kind of game that gets me excited about the future of this franchise. And no I'm not talking 20 games down the road, I'm talking in the next 2-3 years.

gummy
01-06-2010, 12:16 AM
Classy comments from Dwight Howard about Hibby:

"He was just on fire tonight. He had an unbelievable game and I’m proud to see him mature into the player he is. I’m very happy for him.”

gummy
01-06-2010, 12:17 AM
Roy = gold. No explanation needed.

Luther = silver. He deserves some credit as well.

What about the bronze? No love for BRush's great D including 4 steals, 7 rebounds and 12 points (a couple of buckets during a critical time when the Magic were making a run too) on decent shooting?

purdue101
01-06-2010, 12:20 AM
This is the kind of game that gets me excited about the future of this franchise. And no I'm not talking 20 games down the road, I'm talking in the next 2-3 years.

Without a doubt. I'm sold on Hibbert being a solid 17/8 center down the road. I think Hans is a great compliment to him. Rush will probably never average more than 15 a game, but he's a glue guy.....every championship team has one or two. We already have a high scoring wing.

The nicest suprise is AJ. I'm not sure he's our PG of the future, but I definitely see him as a scoring PG off the bench worthy of 15-20 mins. Reminds me of CJ Watson/Roger Mason.

PaceBalls
01-06-2010, 12:23 AM
I am hoping we see AJ swap starting spots with Earl for the last half of the season. I like Earl too, but chances are we won't have him next year and we are going to have AJ for a while, hopefully, if all goes well.

CableKC
01-06-2010, 12:23 AM
With Danny starting in the place of who? Dunleavy or Jones?
Dunleavy

PaceBalls
01-06-2010, 12:25 AM
Dunleavy

I have always thought Jr and Granger were a bad combination to put on the floor. I like seeing Jr off the bench with the energy guys.

Sookie
01-06-2010, 12:26 AM
Classy comments from Dwight Howard about Hibby:

"He was just on fire tonight. He had an unbelievable game and Iím proud to see him mature into the player he is. Iím very happy for him.Ē

I really like Dwight. I think he needs to mature as a person, but he's definitely a loveable kid. And much more sincere than Shaq.

vnzla81
01-06-2010, 12:27 AM
What about the bronze? No love for BRush's great D including 4 steals, 7 rebounds and 12 points (a couple of buckets during a critical time when the Magic were making a run too) on decent shooting?

to troy and tj for seating on the bench,,,,,,,,,,,,,,;)

Anthem
01-06-2010, 12:28 AM
Yeah, I think Dun as well.

But we haven't really tried Danny at PF and Dun at SF. Usually it was SF/SG.

PaceBalls
01-06-2010, 12:30 AM
Yeah, I think Dun as well.

But we haven't really tried Danny at PF and Dun at SF. Usually it was SF/SG.

True, and that also almost always included Murph as the PF. I can see that it might be worth a try. What do we have to lose?

CableKC
01-06-2010, 12:31 AM
Is it just me, or did Luther Head have a quiet 18 pts? I guess Roy and Rush really caught my attention
I'd be okay with using a 7 man PG/SG/SF rotation of Watson/Inferno/Granger/Dunleavy/BRush/Price/Head going forward. I think that Head would do a good job as a "energy" scorer off the bench getting about 10 minutes a game.

Frankly when ( and that's a very huge WHEN ) everyone returns, I can see valid reasons where everyone plays a minimal # of guaranteed # of minutes to play.

CableKC
01-06-2010, 12:34 AM
I have always thought Jr and Granger were a bad combination to put on the floor. I like seeing Jr off the bench with the energy guys.
They're not that bad together....as long as we have Inferno or BRush on the floor and Granger playing the PF on the floor ( with Murphy off the floor ). Dunleavy is one of those players ( when healthy and hitting his shots ) that makes everyone better on the offensive end. It's just when Dunleavy is on the floor and Granger is depended upon to guard the better scorer on the other end that we have issues.

As long as Dunleavy ( just like Murphy ) is depended upon to be the 4th or 5th Best defender on the floor....that should work.

graphic-er
01-06-2010, 12:37 AM
well for sure I have to give JOB some props tonight for getting that Tech in the first minute of the game. You could hear him yell from up in the balcony as he ran onto the court. "HEY YOU CALL THE FOUL!" I think that totally lit the spark for us early on. I'm pretty sure the players needed to see that kind of reaction on their behalf after getting completely waxed on the road.

Midcoasted
01-06-2010, 12:37 AM
the pacers did not get lucky, they legit fought and beat out the magic

our future dleague/nba starting lineup:
aj price
brandon rush
danny granger
tyler hansbrough
roy hibbert

right now, i LOOOVE the sound of that ^^

Thats the lineup I had for my "Starting 5 of the future." Everyone here said they doubted any of those players would be here in 2 years other than Granger. Looks like I saw something most others couldn't because it is coming into fruition. The future is brighter than ever here in Indiana IMO. Once 2011 rolls around we should be fighting for the ECF again, and maybe we will actually win a title with Hibbert at C. He has that high of a ceiling. His performances against Duncan and Howard should prove that.

gummy
01-06-2010, 12:40 AM
well for sure I have to give JOB some props tonight for getting that Tech in the first minute of the game. You could hear him yell from up in the balcony as he ran onto the court. "HEY YOU CALL THE FOUL!" I think that totally lit the spark for us early on. I'm pretty sure the players needed to see that kind of reaction on their behalf after getting completely waxed on the road.

Interesting to know. I missed the first 5 minutes. And yes, I am sure that show of support does matter.

Hoop
01-06-2010, 12:42 AM
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CableKC
01-06-2010, 12:45 AM
Roy didn't get called on some stuff he normally gets caught with, methinks.
For someone with a keen eye watching the game on DVR....I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. It's HIGHLY unusual for Hibbert to have ZERO fouls for 3 full QTRs. I do think that Dwight being in foul trouble for most of the game makes a huge difference as he wasn't as aggressive on either end of the floor for 3 QTRs. I really hope that the answer is that Hibbert finally focused in on doing the right thing.....but I really get the sense that he was getting many calls go his way.

graphic-er
01-06-2010, 12:47 AM
Interesting to know. I missed the first 5 minutes. And yes, I am sure that show of support does matter.

Yes I believe Dahntay Jones got picked up for a blocking foul in the first 12 seonds of the game, a foul that probably should not have been called as Jones had his arm bar and position set. Then on the ensuing offensive possession either Head or Watson drove it in on Howard who I believe blocked it or caused us to lose it out of bounds, magic ball. Then JOB rises up arms waving yelling "you call that foul!" (on Howard), He got T'd up but the refs responsed and call Howard for 2 fouls in the next couple of minutes, and magic had to sit him down early.

Sookie
01-06-2010, 12:47 AM
For someone with a keen eye watching the game on DVR....I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. It's HIGHLY unusual for Hibbert to have ZERO fouls for 3 full QTRs. I do think that Dwight being in foul trouble for most of the game makes a huge difference as he wasn't as aggressive on either end of the floor for 3 QTRs. I really hope that the answer is that Hibbert finally focused in on doing the right thing.....but I really get the sense that he was getting many calls go his way.

Yes, he wasn't getting called for some of the stuff he usually gets called for.

But to be fair, most people don't get called for that stuff.

joeyd
01-06-2010, 12:57 AM
Indeed, the most unusual stat of the night was that Roy did not have a single foul until there was about 10 minutes remaining in the fourth quarter. Of course, at about the 10 minute mark and over the course of the next minute, he racked up 3 fouls in rapid succession!!

Was also nice to see Foster back on the Pacers bench. Knew he was out due to back problems, but he hadn't been sitting on the bench all of this time.

Naptown_Seth
01-06-2010, 01:01 AM
My "television" was cutting in and out all night so I wasn't able to get a read on how much of Carter and Rashard's poor performance could be chocked up to poor offense - either bad shot selection or simply missed open shots - and how much was the result of tough D from Dahntay and Brandon. Any elucidation would be appreciated.
At our post-game BS session I mention to BillS that one of my favorite moments of the night was seeing Jones and Rush rotate AHEAD of the PnR forced switch between Lewis and Carter. The fluidity at the wing defense when those two are out there together is a thing of beauty. The Magic gained zip for forcing that switch.

Rush also had a couple of the toughest rebounds of the night.

It seemed to help Hibbert at times too. He made it into the 4th I think with zero fouls, or at least the late 3rd.



Dwight was yapping away with fans, first after the 2 fouls and then they really got on him after the foul out. With all the people moved down in the ticket promo the LL was pretty rowdy.


Hibby looked to be walking away after Barnes hard foul put him on the ground and then suddenly he shot around and came hard at him. Barnes was facing away so I couldn't hear, but my guess was that he said something, probably along the lines of flopping. The sound of Roy hitting the floor told me it wasn't a flop, along with the near Hulk-out for a split second.

Roy also did a spontaneous raise-it-up/get loud thing late in the game, and it wasn't even after one of his own plays.

He also hit about 3-4 almost stupid shots, just makes that tell you it's all going his way that night. And at least one great give and go pass from the high post for an easy layup (by Head IIRC).

But it was more than that. Hibby has been gaining in confidence and my theory with young players is that you can always see that one game when it really starts to click, and once they pass that point and have that night, they are reborn as a true NBA player. I think tonight was that type of night for him. He'll have more duds to come, but I think he's found out that he belongs.



Dun had two air balls in one possession. I know he hit the 3 off a play designed for him, but that was definitely the exception. He got a lot of rebounds with good floor position, but he wasn't flying in strong to rip them down. Nothing he did looked strong, quick or anywhere close to his normal game.

I don't know what it is, but he's not right.



One of the best passes you'll ever see - Price in the mid-2nd with a half look-off, one handed cross the body sling from outside the arc right down the lane to Hibby at the rim. Starter, next year. I truly believe that. He commands the floor and sets up plays.


Rush, you see in a game like this what I like about him as a setup guy. They often used him as the go-between to feed Roy, and it's not so much his jumper that helps there but his sense for spacing in order to get a safe feed. That was critical later when the Magic were ramping up the effort to stop Roy.


Watson is nice, but if we are being honest he's really more backup. He has been struggling to keep guys in front of him and really had problems tonight. You like him for the current situation, but some of that is due to the contrast with Ford.


Head and McRoberts have settled into their roles nicely. Took forever to get them there but it's been nice seeing them out there.




I guess just in total you see better overall basketball with these guys in there. Other than Dun's struggling game (he's not really even creating offense very well) this group looks organized and on the same page.

Sookie
01-06-2010, 01:11 AM
One of the best passes you'll ever see - Price in the mid-2nd with a half look-off, one handed cross the body sling from outside the arc right down the lane to Hibby at the rim. Starter, next year. I truly believe that. He commands the floor and sets up plays.




That's actually something Price really likes to do. Pass from the perimeter. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that play with Jeff Adrien as the reciever of the pass.

duke dynamite
01-06-2010, 01:12 AM
ROY HIBBERT.

That's all I have to say.

MagicRat
01-06-2010, 01:36 AM
Then on the ensuing offensive possession either Head or Watson drove it in on Howard who I believe blocked it or caused us to lose it out of bounds, magic ball. Then JOB rises up arms waving yelling "you call that foul!" (on Howard), He got T'd up but the refs responsed and call Howard for 2 fouls in the next couple of minutes, and magic had to sit him down early.

JOB was yelling that the official raised his arm to signal a foul call, but then called it out of bounds. He made the foul signal and yelled "You did this......that's a f%^$ing foul"........

duke dynamite
01-06-2010, 01:46 AM
At our post-game BS session I mention to BillS that one of my favorite moments of the night was seeing Jones and Rush rotate AHEAD of the PnR forced switch between Lewis and Carter. The fluidity at the wing defense...yada yada yada.

I can't agree with you more on this, but I never really got a chance to throw in my two cents to y'all.

Looking at tonight's game, and I can't really tell if it was just circumstance or by design, but they were setting up a lot of plays for Roy to either remain in a post postition or post up and transition into a layup. It obviously worked, but if you ask me it seemed like a better organized offensive system than usual.

Besides Dunleavy chucking up those airballs late in the game, I think they were a lot more careful with their jumpshots. Sure some were really fast coming down the court, but they didn't look as sloppy as what we're used to seeing.

I can't really explain what happened, because Orlando has been a bad road team lately, and it didn't seem like they were ever right after Howard got his two fouls, because we were going back and fourth with them at the time leading up to it.

By no way does this easily wash the taste of the NY loss out of my mouth, but I can rest a little easier knowing that we have a couple more days before we play again, so I can enjoy this win for a while.

Brad8888
01-06-2010, 01:56 AM
Tonight is the best example of why they actually play the games.

The NBA - where Hibbert happens!

AesopRockOn
01-06-2010, 02:09 AM
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<embed src="http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/swf/1.1/cvp/nba_embed_container.swf?context=nba&videoId=channels/nba_tv/2010/01/05/20100105_ind_hibbert_alink.nba" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" bgcolor="#000000" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" wmode="transparent" width="388" height="394"></object>

Notice that in answering the question about being on this recent tear and having a ton of confidence from different guys, the coach isn't mentioned at all. This would indicate that Roy has pretty much tuned him out. I wonder who else is on that wagon...Dahntay? Earl? AJ? Danny?

I Love P
01-06-2010, 02:13 AM
"He was just on fire tonight. He had an unbelievable game and Iím proud to see him mature into the player he is. Iím very happy for him.Ē -- Dwight Howard on Hibbert.

OakMoses
01-06-2010, 02:18 AM
Quote from the Magic announcers in the 4th quarter: "You get the feeling Dwight could tackle somebody and not get called for a foul." That was said as Dwight was shoving Roy all over the court for most of the 4th quarter. You really can't fault Roy for getting manhandled by Howard, though. There's maybe 5 players in the NBA who can hold their own against Howard if he's getting away with that kind of horseplay.

I got a bit screwed by League Pass just like imawhat. I was lucky enough to find the right channel and start recording about halfway through the 2nd quarter. Unfortunately, I missed Roy's first 16 points and everything good that AJ did. I'd love to here a bit more about any of that.

I was really impressed with Rush tonight. I noticed it in the first game against the Magic and it was confirmed here tonight: Brandon does a fantastic job guarding Vince Carter. He also came up big offensively in some pseudo-clutch situations: the end of the 3rd quarter and middle of the 4th. He pretty much carried us offensively for a few key possessions. He also had a fantastic rebound over Howard in the 4th quarter.

One thought on the Murphy issue: Any 2 man combination of our big guys (Hibbert, Murphy, Solomon, Foster, McRoberts, Hansbrough) can be effective except for Murphy and Hibbert. They are the only two guys that almost always less athletic than their opponent. The defense can hide one unathletic player, but it sucks with them both out there.

Sadly, Troy and Roy are our best two players at their respective positions and complement each other quite well offensively.

ksuttonjr76
01-06-2010, 02:24 AM
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Sniff...he said that he was going to go into the weight room to get bigger. That warms my heart...sniff. Roy Hibbert is going to be unstoppable once he starts bulking up more.

Will Galen
01-06-2010, 02:28 AM
UB,
It's too late to stop it now anyway. The 5 game win streak has reached mythical levels just because of how badly things have gone since then, and of course your stubborn opposition to join our new religion. :borg:
I'm with Buck!

As for the game, the Pacers looked like a different team out there. They were being scrappy just like last years team. I love watching them when they are scrappy!

Still, they are going to be a lottery team this year, but in a couple years they are going to be a contender.

gummy
01-06-2010, 02:31 AM
Sniff...he said that he was going to go into the weight room to get bigger. That warms my heart...sniff. Roy Hibbert is going to be unstoppable once he starts bulking up more.

Hmmmm. Maybe another 10 lbs. or so but I don't want him to bulk up too much. Not good for the knees of a guy that size, not to mention it'll slow him down some and probably further decrease his lateral quickness.

Also, totally off-topic but Hibby's official pic looks much better than many other guys: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/roy_hibbert/index.html

CableKC
01-06-2010, 03:02 AM
The problem is Murphy is built like a PF with no PF game. He's soft on defense and his post game is obsolete. I haven't seen Troy post up once all year. He's a one trick pony - 6'11" shooter with diminshed supporting skill.

Danny should be our PF until Hans is ready. Danny is more versatile on offense. It's not like we lose anything on D. We just need to make sure that Rush is in that lineup as he is a long wing who will rebound.
Sorry, I don't think that Granger should always be used as a PF all the time but only in certain situations. I know that it's easy to simply say that we should play Granger at the PF spot and to "Tinsley" Murphy....but we aren't always going to be playing Teams with the type of PFs that Granger can matchup against that Murphy would be better suited to guard. I know it's hard to believe, but I think that Murphy is better suited to guard certain types of Big Men...clearly not all opposing Big Men ( like the athletic ones )...but certain types that are slower but bigger then Granger.

I don't like that Murphy has no Low-Post skills....but that's simply not part of his game and something that we have to live with. Is he the ideal PF to complement Hibbert? Most of the time...no....but I don't think that his lack of Low-Post scoring skills or lack of mobility should disqualify us from using him in the lineup. Foster can't be counted on to consistently score on the offensive end and doesn't have any real low-post skills.....yet we don't disqualify him from the lineup. I know that Foster has a greater impact on the game then Murphy does ( at times ), but I don't always want to go 4 on 5 on the offensive end.

Bear in mind that I'm not saying that Murphy should be playing extensive minutes on the floor as one of the Big Men out there.....but he is still a capable scorer on the Offensive end and possesses skills that our other Big Men ( other then Hibbert and Hansbrough ) simply don't have. How many bunnies that were passed to Solo this game that he missed when he was out there? Would you trust Solo or McRoberts to consistently hit a midrange jumper?

I don't think that he should be solely relied upon to help close out games ( as in pull Hibbert out in favor of Murphy to satisfy JO'Bs need to have a vet close out the game ), but I think that he contributes something different that does warrants playing time on the floor.

I know that it's easy to throw Murphy under the bus to explain why we are doing so bad, but I don't fault him entirely for where we are right now ( yes, I understand that having a less then mobile Big Man that only seems to help on one side of the court doesn't help that much ). The problem is that I think that JO'B isn't properly utilizing his skills to enhance his strengths while minimizing his weakness on the court.

Play him about 24+ mpg solely at the PF spot as the 1st Big Man off the bench while pairing him up with better defensive/athletic Players that are more energetic ( like McRoberts, Solo, Foster or even Hansbrough in the Frontcourt alongside some Backcourt combination of Granger/Inferno/BRush/Watson ) and I think that he'll be able to contribute more consistently and we won't notice his "negatives" as often. His offensive skills will be maximized while his defensive deficiencies will be minimized....it's all a matter of how many minutes he plays ( so that he's not over used so that he's not tired and has no lift in his legs and ( more importantly ) HOW he is used ( as a PF while being paired up with the right combination of defensive minded Players ).

Trader Joe
01-06-2010, 04:16 AM
Can we officially put to rest all that "Roy Hibbert is the worst center in the NBA" garbage that was being spewed for a while?

Trader Joe
01-06-2010, 04:22 AM
Also, 5 game win streak aside, IMO if you want HIbbert and Rush to be operating at their peak abilities, this is the lineup you MUST use, and I dunno about the Pacers, but if I had two second year guys that had both shown true irreplaceable NBA skills (Rush-defense, Hibby-low post awareness, scoring) I would be doing everything I can to make sure they thrive, and I think for Hibby and Rush that means they both absolutely cannot play with Troy Murphy. Murphy hurts Hibby on D by getting him bad fouls where Roy tries to cover a mistake Murph makes, and I actually think Murph gets in Rush's way offensively by taking up some perimeter space that Rush can use to help setup plays which is what he is best at. Forget for a second whether you like Murphy or not, and just consider the fact that he may not work at all with two of our most talented, young players.

cdash
01-06-2010, 04:34 AM
Can we officially put to rest all that "Roy Hibbert is the worst center in the NBA" garbage that was being spewed for a while?

When was that ever discussed?

Trader Joe
01-06-2010, 04:40 AM
When was that ever discussed?

There have been several people who have said that when Hibbert is starting for us, "He is the worst starting center in the NBA."

IndyProdigy
01-06-2010, 04:53 AM
There have been several people who have said that when Hibbert is starting for us, "He is the worst starting center in the NBA."

i can vouch for this. theres also the others....

"Slowest player ive ever seen"

"will never amount to anything"

"awful pick by bird"

"he cant block shots"

"hes too heavy, he needs to lose weight"

he must read all this criticism. so thank you members of PD for inspiring him.

IndyProdigy
01-06-2010, 05:08 AM
well, i went to the game tonight. i sat in club level, right behind the t.v. cameras and where austin chroshere was sitting. chroshere by the way stood up several times to give our team a standing Ovation.

Some things i noticed...

a lot of ppl in the lower level, which made me want to go down there lol, but it was good for all those fans to get the exposure of such a huge win for us. this could be the confidence boost we needed right before granger comes back.

the very first time i noticed aj price. he had some good plays, he had some bad. played aggressive and passive. but overall he made some really crisp passes and showed good vision and seems to have a really good 'feel' for the game. it just comes very natural to him. even when he makes a mistake, he knows how to put it behind him and get better.

the magic were frustrated by every single pacer player. i thought when JOB got a technical foul when it was 2 - 2, i was gonna flip my lid. and was going to be the beginning of an awful game for us and i was gonna want to leave soon. but i was wrong. jj redick and luther head had a little rivalry going, dahntay and vince carter were jawing and giving eachother some extra shoulder, elbow, hip, what have you. dwight was EXTREMELY frustrated with hibbert. and hibbert didnt back down ONE BIT. and I LOVED IT. he really showed the determination and effort i like to see. and by golly he earned it tonight. dunleavy's box score looked 'ok' but that was extremely decieving. his shot was off he threw it away many times. most of his rebounds were uncontested. and tonight was the first time i noticed just how good brandon rush's defense is. he is built to defend. he shut carter down, big time. and im starting to just accept that and take the occasional offensive explosion that he is capable of every once in a while.

the game made me so happy tonight because it shows me what we can be capable of especially when hans and granger get back. and we get rid of ford, foster, and murph for picks/other players.

Bball
01-06-2010, 06:14 AM
I thought O'Brien's early technical was justified and timed beautifully... and helped set the stage for what followed...

IndyPacer
01-06-2010, 07:16 AM
The problem is Murphy is built like a PF with no PF game. He's soft on defense and his post game is obsolete. I haven't seen Troy post up once all year. He's a one trick pony - 6'11" shooter with diminshed supporting skill.

Danny should be our PF until Hans is ready. Danny is more versatile on offense. It's not like we lose anything on D. We just need to make sure that Rush is in that lineup as he is a long wing who will rebound.

Jermaine O'Neal was a PF with a PF physique (remember back when when Amare used to struggle mightily against Jermaine?) who was constantly playing against Cs and ended up with chronic injury problems. Jermaine even tried to bulk up and put on mass; that only seemed to make things worse long-term. That's what happens long-term when you play smaller guys at bigger positions. Granger should not be playing against naturally bigger, stronger PFs. If someone needs to play out of position against bigger, stronger players, choose someone other than our best player. Granger is too important, and the last thing he needs is to increase the likelihood he could sustain more injures. I think Granger has a SF's build and belongs on the wing, not banging in the paint against brutes. Just my opinion.

D-BONE
01-06-2010, 07:28 AM
I think Head has been good as the starting 2. I really like him there.


Agreed. Rush also seems to have benefited from coming of the bench. So I'd expect that arrangement for at least the near future. Although if Brandon can really put it together, he could eventually supplant Luther as a starter. No problem there either b/c head's offensive punch and energy would be nice on the second unit.

How will an eventual Granger return affect them though? I'm assuming he and Dunleavy overlap more.

Speed
01-06-2010, 08:32 AM
I liked when Barnes got called for a charge, walked over Roy not around. Roy got up and showed his displeasure. I like that Roy didn't get pushed around.

Alabama-Redneck
01-06-2010, 08:56 AM
That was the strangest officiated game I have seen in quite a while. :confused:

:cool:

McKeyFan
01-06-2010, 09:05 AM
I liked when Barnes got called for a charge, walked over Roy not around. Roy got up and showed his displeasure. I like that Roy didn't get pushed around.

I noticed the walking over thing too, wondering if that's actually what caused Roy to respond, not the foul itself.

Putnam
01-06-2010, 09:50 AM
Notice that in answering the question about being on this recent tear and having a ton of confidence from different guys, the coach isn't mentioned at all. This would indicate that Roy has pretty much tuned him out.

I notice you didn't mention Hicks and the other administrators in this post. This would indicate that you think they are doing a bad job of maintaining this forum.

For that matter, I'm not mentioning the five-game win streak in this post, which would indicate . . . oh, never mind.

You may be right that some players, including Hibbert, aren't fired up about O'Brien. I don't know. But not mentioning the coach in answer to a question that wasn't about the coach doesn't say anything about how he feels about the coach.

BillS
01-06-2010, 11:41 AM
So many things to talk about.

A bit of a scare on the first couple of possessions by AJ when he tried to do the TJ Ford "drive to the basket like it's 5-on-1". I recall yelling that just because he has a J in his name doesn't mean he has to play like that. He stopped. Coincidence? Of course.

I think this is a classic example of a favorable matchup that we finally took advantage of. As I recall in the last Magic game it looked like they had no real answer for Roy and it was the typical foul-and-to-the-bench situation that kept us from exploiting it.

In the after-discussion last night there was a lot of jawing about "what is wrong with Dun". I still believe it is NOT a physical issue with his knee. I made a point last night of watching his legs when he lifted for shots, and I didn't see any unusual movement nor did I see him favor the knees after coming down. I also see him moving without the ball and not losing any kind of a step, while I actually think he has been better this year at moving with his man on defense. Having had 15 (not 17, I remembered wrong at the game) against the T-Wolves shows that he CAN still have a decent night, then a back-to-back knocks it completely out.

Because of this, I think general conditioning has a lot to do with it (he has all but been off the court unable to do anything resembling game conditioning for all but two of the last 10 months or more). Someone (unfortunately I don't remember who, might have been Hicks) talked about it being more of a confidence level, not really trusting his knees to not give out again. I would go with that.

Speaking of defense, the one thing that really stood out for me was that we relied more on the man-to-man defense with good timing on the help when needed, unlike previous games where the help comes either too early or (with TJ a major culprit) when unnecessary for anything other than trying to harass the ball. We also were successful challenging shots early, which kept the Magic from getting into rhythm shooting jumpers.

Overall, a lot of positives.

Regarding the whole "this is just like the win streak", I think it has become clear that there is a style of play that most of the players are comfortable with that Troy and TJ, for different reasons, don't seem to fit into. In some cases that is the fault of JOB who tried to use them that way for so long, in others it is the fault of the player for not being able to adjust to the rest of the players on the floor. I wholeheartedly believe this is what Dahntay was referring to in his comments. I also believe this style has its flaws (if we can't get the ball into the paint we just don't have a consistent outside attack, for example), and therefore (as we have seen) is just as capable of losing badly as the "other" player combination. In the final analysis, though, it is more uniform in its chemistry and (because of that) is more fun to watch.

McKeyFan
01-06-2010, 12:00 PM
I think this is a classic example of a favorable matchup that we finally took advantage of. As I recall in the last Magic game it looked like they had no real answer for Roy and it was the typical foul-and-to-the-bench situation that kept us from exploiting it. Did Troy play in that game? Any credence to the suggestions around here that Roy's foul troubles are somewhat related to having to bail out Troy so much?


In the after-discussion last night there was a lot of jawing about "what is wrong with Dun". I still believe it is NOT a physical issue with his knee. I made a point last night of watching his legs when he lifted for shots, and I didn't see any unusual movement nor did I see him favor the knees after coming down. I also see him moving without the ball and not losing any kind of a step, while I actually think he has been better this year at moving with his man on defense. Having had 15 (not 17, I remembered wrong at the game) against the T-Wolves shows that he CAN still have a decent night, then a back-to-back knocks it completely out.

Because of this, I think general conditioning has a lot to do with it (he has all but been off the court unable to do anything resembling game conditioning for all but two of the last 10 months or more). Someone (unfortunately I don't remember who, might have been Hicks) talked about it being more of a confidence level, not really trusting his knees to not give out again. I would go with that.

I appreciate you tackling this, and noticing how bad it is. But the general conditioning thing breaks down for me in the fact that he is making stupid turnovers and airballing and screwing up as soon as the game starts.

It seems like he's the one with vertigo, not Tyler.




Regarding the whole "this is just like the win streak", I think it has become clear that there is a style of play that most of the players are comfortable with that Troy and TJ, for different reasons, don't seem to fit into. In some cases that is the fault of JOB who tried to use them that way for so long, in others it is the fault of the player for not being able to adjust to the rest of the players on the floor. I wholeheartedly believe this is what Dahntay was referring to in his comments. I also believe this style has its flaws (if we can't get the ball into the paint we just don't have a consistent outside attack, for example), and therefore (as we have seen) is just as capable of losing badly as the "other" player combination. In the final analysis, though, it is more uniform in its chemistry and (because of that) is more fun to watch.

Good word.

I might note that when Tyler gets back we'll have another low post option besides Troy to make the "Win Streak System" work.

Hicks
01-06-2010, 12:18 PM
Admittedly, Roy was also allowed to foul sometimes without a whistle being blown (for whatever reason). That bears mentioning.

BillS
01-06-2010, 12:26 PM
Did Troy play in that game? Any credence to the suggestions around here that Roy's foul troubles are somewhat related to having to bail out Troy so much?

Not only Troy. I didn't start watching until the last few TJ games but TJ leaves his man to harrass the ball so often it is like playing 4-on-5. I suspect TJ's man drove the lane as often as Troy's.

And let's not fail to note that - as I've often said - Roy forgets how big he is and tries to play like a little guy defending a big guy too often. He jumps in the air, he slaps at the ball when his hands are up - he still makes an awful lot of silly fouls on his own. He's getting better, but usually you chalk up at least 2 fouls per game to playing small like that.



I appreciate you tackling this, and noticing how bad it is. But the general conditioning thing breaks down for me in the fact that he is making stupid turnovers and airballing and screwing up as soon as the game starts.

It seems like he's the one with vertigo, not Tyler.

Definitely understand what you are saying, and I know that's a big part of a lot of people's arguments. If I remember correctly - and I have no film to review - one of the games in question was Atlanta, where the Hawks were forcing turnovers on everyone by cutting off passing lanes and preventing Pacers from moving into position. In another of the games I remember a couple of the turnovers coming when Dun wasn't set right as he tried to stop and pass, he slipped a bit. I'm not <i><b>yet</b></i> convinced those aren't isolated instances, but I'm willing to keep my eye on them. All I can say is that passing and ball handling require concentration that flags when fatigued, just like shooting. The explanation given by many - that Dun is p***ed off that he might get traded so simply doesn't care any more - needs a heck of a lot more than anecdotal "well it looks like" for me to accept it, since he has shown zero sign of being that kind of player in the past.

McKeyFan
01-06-2010, 12:29 PM
The explanation given by many - that Dun is p***ed off that he might get traded so simply doesn't care any more - needs a heck of a lot more than anecdotal "well it looks like" for me to accept it, since he has shown zero sign of being that kind of player in the past.

Agreed. He doesn't have the character or history.

I keep wondering if he is somehow impaired, affecting his coordination. It's really weird.

pwee31
01-06-2010, 01:19 PM
Admittedly, Roy was also allowed to foul sometimes without a whistle being blown (for whatever reason). That bears mentioning.

I personally think he learned to jump straight up, with his arms straight up.

A lot of his fouls are due to opposing players jumping into him, and Roy jumps straight up, but would bring his arms down still attempting to block a shot in the process.

Last night he seemed to be happy with just jumping straight up, arms in the air, and altering the shot instead of trying to block them.

Perhaps the refs were easy on him, but hopefully it's a sign of things to come

Hicks
01-06-2010, 01:27 PM
I was sitting pretty close last night in the LL (row 16) at a diagonal angle, and I know I saw him get someone on the arm with no call, and that's primarily what I have in mind, but other times he was bumping people in ways that a lot of refs will call that.

CableKC
01-06-2010, 01:30 PM
I personally think he learned to jump straight up, with his arms straight up.

A lot of his fouls are due to opposing players jumping into him, and Roy jumps straight up, but would bring his arms down still attempting to block a shot in the process.

Last night he seemed to be happy with just jumping straight up, arms in the air, and altering the shot instead of trying to block them.

Perhaps the refs were easy on him, but hopefully it's a sign of things to come
IMHO, when Hibbert is guarding someone inside the paint whose trying to get position to score.....Hibbert is so long that he doesn't even have to jump at all.....he can plant his feet, raise his hands in the air and do as good of a job of altering a shot ( while not risking getting called on a foul ) as he would if he tried jumping in the air.

count55
01-06-2010, 01:40 PM
I personally think he learned to jump straight up, with his arms straight up.

A lot of his fouls are due to opposing players jumping into him, and Roy jumps straight up, but would bring his arms down still attempting to block a shot in the process.

Last night he seemed to be happy with just jumping straight up, arms in the air, and altering the shot instead of trying to block them.

Perhaps the refs were easy on him, but hopefully it's a sign of things to come

O'Brien has talked about this a lot. He says that prior to coming to the NBA, Hibbert was basically taught that the best way to maximize his size was to basically make himself as big as possible. The meant standing as straight as possible and reaching for the skies.

That works fine in college, but doing that in the NBA just makes you less mobile. A whole bunch of players will either go around or over you. What they've been working with him on is creating a lower base for movement. Give up a little of the standing height, in exchange for some lateral mobility and more upward explosion. He's gotten better at it, but he's still a ways off.

Another thing with Roy is that I think his mind outraces his body. This is a problem that usually happens with older players, but I think it fits here. An older player can still see the play, and knows where and what to do, but his body can't get there fast enough any more. I think the same is true with Roy. He can see the play, but his body can't get him there.

It's my opinion that this will improve over time as he adapts to the speed of the players, and, perhaps more importantly, learns to gauge what he can and can't do, depending on the player and the situation.

Alabama-Redneck
01-06-2010, 02:37 PM
.

It seems like he's the one with vertigo, not Tyler.

.

I have noticed that on several occasions MDJ has slipped or fell as if he is "favoring" something or he just does not have good balance.

I don't know what the problem is but I think there is a problem. I don't remember him doing this before the surgery.

Since I have had a mild case of vertigo for several years, I know the feeling. I take medication when it becomes bad.

People have told me for years that I was a little "off-balance" but what do they know. :-p

:cool:

Since86
01-06-2010, 03:19 PM
As far as MDJ, you can't forget that he's pretty much retraining his body. For years and years he's had issues with his knee. Your body compensates for it. Now, he's working with two healthy knees, maybe not 100% healthy but a lot more healthy than it's been, and the rest of his body is adjusting back to how it should.

There are so many factors going on with him that it's way too simple to narrow it down to one or two. He really shouldn't be evaluated until next year.

McKeyFan
01-06-2010, 03:30 PM
As far as MDJ, you can't forget that he's pretty much retraining his body. For years and years he's had issues with his knee. Your body compensates for it. Now, he's working with two healthy knees, maybe not 100% healthy but a lot more healthy than it's been, and the rest of his body is adjusting back to how it should.

There are so many factors going on with him that it's way too simple to narrow it down to one or two. He really shouldn't be evaluated until next year.

I can accept that.

It just seems weird that his first three or four games were excellent. Than he became suddenly awful.

count55
01-06-2010, 03:38 PM
Check out Dukie's Debut on 8p9s (http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2010/01/game-34-recap-hibbert-leaps-over-superman-with-a-single-bound/)

Nice Work, Duke.

Bball
01-06-2010, 03:51 PM
I was sitting pretty close last night in the LL (row 16) at a diagonal angle, and I know I saw him get someone on the arm with no call, and that's primarily what I have in mind, but other times he was bumping people in ways that a lot of refs will call that.


In the WWE many times a competitor will bend or break the rules such as picking up a chair to El Kabong the other wrestler and the ref will pretend to get distracted and not see it in order to make the match more competitive and especially entertaining for the fans....


Is there a moral here for us?

I hope not...

dryley
01-06-2010, 03:59 PM
A funny thing about last nights game...(at least to me).. Although I was enjoying the game, it never even entered my mind that we would win until about 3 minutes to go. I just thought we would give it a good hard effort, then lose in the 4th.
Great win for the guys!

Anthem
01-06-2010, 04:22 PM
As far as MDJ, you can't forget that he's pretty much retraining his body. For years and years he's had issues with his knee. Your body compensates for it. Now, he's working with two healthy knees, maybe not 100% healthy but a lot more healthy than it's been, and the rest of his body is adjusting back to how it should.

There are so many factors going on with him that it's way too simple to narrow it down to one or two. He really shouldn't be evaluated until next year.
Fair enough.

If that's the case, though, I'd hope that once Granger comes back Mike would play from the bench for the rest of the year.

If he's not yet ready to be evaluated, then he's not yet ready to be depended on.

AesopRockOn
01-06-2010, 06:43 PM
I notice you didn't mention Hicks and the other administrators in this post. This would indicate that you think they are doing a bad job of maintaining this forum.

I can't tell if you're being goofy or you really think that analogy makes any sense.


You may be right that some players, including Hibbert, aren't fired up about O'Brien. I don't know. But not mentioning the coach in answer to a question that wasn't about the coach doesn't say anything about how he feels about the coach.

The question was: "What's clicking for you right now that wasn't before?" You're right. It wasn't a question about the coach. But it was just as much a question about the coach as it was about the players he mentions in his response.


You know, just the guys before the game, the older guys, Dahntay, Earl and Luther. They have a lot of confidence in me. They tell me that when I get the ball to be aggressive from the start. They tell me that we've got to go inside-out. You know, sometimes we shoot a lot of threes, but I think things are changing right now. And we're going to start going inside out and and I'm going to try to be a good passer and find players out on the perimeter to hit shots once they start double teaming me. I think that to be an all around good player in this league...I want to be the total package one day.

I really do think that it matters that, when a young player is talking about the most important motivating factors for strong performance, he mentions three veteran players (DJ, EW, and LH) but not the (supposed to be) most veteran presence on the team. I do not particularly like our coach right now; I acknowledge that there isn't a whole lot that can be done at this point in the season. I simply observed that JOB doesn't seem to be in Roy's mind in terms of the people who give him confidence; after all, the person choosing to give him more minutes (injuries and all) is Jim. My question was just considering whether other players had similar mindsets. My interest currently is in the players' mindsets, not our lame duck of a coach. Hope this cleared that up.

Kemo
01-06-2010, 07:33 PM
i can vouch for this. theres also the others....

"Slowest player ive ever seen"

"will never amount to anything"

"awful pick by bird"

"he cant block shots"

"hes too heavy, he needs to lose weight"

he must read all this criticism. so thank you members of PD for inspiring him.



I recall him being called a "bum" as well..
Which BTW REALLY ticked me off..
.
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