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View Full Version : The Postgame Thread (Spoiler Alert: Pacers Win!)



Anthem
01-02-2010, 10:40 PM
Wow, I'd almost forgotten what that felt like.

I've said plenty already about who I'd like to see not playing, so I won't touch that issue. Let's just talk about the guys that played.

I missed the first half and part of the third quarter, so I'll just say this: I'm excited to see McBob getting the PT. Seth is going to be incorrigible.

imawhat
01-02-2010, 10:41 PM
I hope all the McRoberts fans enjoyed that one. He'll get one more tomorrow night before he hits the bench again.

Thesterovic
01-02-2010, 10:45 PM
Hibberts stat line is amazing.

27 min, 21 pts, 7 rbs, 4 asts, 3 blks, 1 stl, 1 to, 4 pf, 10-18 fg

Turns out we did "Lopez" him.

odeez
01-02-2010, 10:46 PM
Yeah that was a forgotten feeling, winning! But more so it was refreshing to see the guys who did play, leave it all on the floor. Head, Hibbert, and B.rush played great! Dun was good in the first half but didn't score in the second half, so he gets some love, but his conditioning seems to need work, but glad to see him play better. Mcbobs energy was great, especially in the first half, and his steal near the end of the game is worth mentioning.

odeez
01-02-2010, 10:47 PM
Hibberts stat line is amazing.

27 min, 21 pts, 7 rbs, 4 asts, 3 blks, 1 stl, 1 to, 4 pf, 10-18 fg

Turns out we did "Lopez" him.

Yes, love seeing him play well, we do have our center for the future, I would just love to see him continue to improve, and I think he will! :dance:

Justin Tyme
01-02-2010, 10:56 PM
Hibbert has had 3 nice games in a row, but let's keep it in perspective as they were against Minnesota, Memphis, and Chicago. Let's not anoit him as the center of the future quite yet.

McKeyFan
01-02-2010, 11:01 PM
I was pleading with JOB to put Hibbert back in at the end. To his credit he did, and Roy hit one or two big shots down the stretch, along with some assists.

Roy is just what we need in half court sets down the stretch. It sure is nice to win.

BlueNGold
01-02-2010, 11:03 PM
He clearly benefits from having a defensive minded PF next to him. It is so huge. I could not believe when I saw us clog the paint and stop penetration. It was beautiful.

Add Granger and Hans to the mix and that will help Roy too.

PaceBalls
01-02-2010, 11:09 PM
Credit where credit is due, I was pleased with Jims gameplan and lineups for the most part. Yeah there was that bad 3rd quarter, but let's face it, we have a bad team, that is to be expected. Benching Ford was a good move and I applaud him for finally coming to his senses. Now if we can just get him to bench Murph and run the offense through Hibbert, I might actually start sticking up for the coach, I will at least stop calling for a change.

Feeding Hibbert is the best strategy for these guys, an inside outside game. Plus, the more burn Hibbert gets and the more the offense runs through him, the better he is going to be.

It is night and day the difference in Roy's play when Murph is not out there with him. Those 2 are such a horrible combination together, I hope we don't have to see them together at the same time again.

So Jim gets a thumbs up from me, I am very pessimistic that everything will go back to how it was once Murph is back, but for now I can enjoy the games, and be confident in our guys and gameplan of running the offense through Hibbert.

I know this team is bad, and we played a terrible team, but we go from worst to sorta bad when we do what we did tonight.

Sookie
01-02-2010, 11:10 PM
Of course I miss this game.

Please Obie..continue to play the competent point guards.

McKeyFan
01-02-2010, 11:12 PM
Two things I would like to have seen tonight:

- More AJ Price in the second half. He may have been the main difference between the great first and iffy second.

- More timouts by JOB when the thirty point lead started to dwindle. There were points where we dipped to 24, then below 20, where it would have helped to stop their momentum. You better betcha Rick Carlisle or Phil Jackson would have done just that.

But I'll take the win.

BlueNGold
01-02-2010, 11:19 PM
Price is really, really good IMO. The more he plays, the better and more confident he looks out there. He's also a pretty good defensive player. There's not much I don't like about his style.

He actually reminds me of a real PG.


Edit: Goodness, 6 assists in 14 minutes. 3 boards, no turnovers, 1 steal and 8 points. Rookie out of the second round? Are you kidding me?

BlueNGold
01-02-2010, 11:26 PM
Interesting factoid. The last two games are the first two since the infamous 5 game winning streak where Dahntay Jones has shot over 50% in consecutive outings. I think this has something to do with the way we are playing with tonight's players...

kester99
01-02-2010, 11:28 PM
Interesting factoid. The last two games are the first two since the infamous 5 game winning streak where Dahntay Jones has shot over 50% in consecutive outings. I think this has something to do with the way we are playing with tonight's players...

He was a lot more successful taking it to the rim tonight. For whatever reason...more 3s dropping opening up the middle, or Dahntay himself pushing toward the basket instead of stopping and popping.

Anthem
01-02-2010, 11:31 PM
He clearly benefits from having a defensive minded PF next to him. It is so huge. I could not believe when I saw us clog the paint and stop penetration. It was beautiful.
That play at the end where Hibbert blocked the shot and Mac came down with the rebound? Beautiful. I hope to see that combo many more times in the future.

Clearly we're not going to beat every team playing like this... the team is still short on talent. But I'd root for THIS team all season long, and I'll never complain about a loss if the guys lay it all on the floor like they did tonight. I think this rotation would have gotten us more wins so far than the one we've been using.

Once guys start coming back? I'd love to see something more like this:

Hibbert / Solo
McBob / Tyler
Granger / Dun
Jones / Brandon
Earl / Price

With Foster and Head rounding out the 12-man roster. Even without TJ or Troy, there's not enough minutes to go around.

imawhat
01-02-2010, 11:32 PM
Our PG numbers for the night:

20 pts, 7 rb, 15 ast, 2 to

If you include Head:

41 pts, 11 rb, 21 ast, 3 to

BlueNGold
01-02-2010, 11:43 PM
That play at the end where Hibbert blocked the shot and Mac came down with the rebound? Beautiful. I hope to see that combo many more times in the future.

Clearly we're not going to beat every team playing like this... the team is still short on talent. But I'd root for THIS team all season long, and I'll never complain about a loss if the guys lay it all on the floor like they did tonight. I think this rotation would have gotten us more wins so far than the one we've been using.

Once guys start coming back? I'd love to see something more like this:

Hibbert / Solo
McBob / Tyler
Granger / Dun
Jones / Brandon
Earl / Price

With Foster and Head rounding out the 12-man roster. Even without TJ or Troy, there's not enough minutes to go around.

That's basically my depth chart if I called the shots. It's amazing how well your front court can play when they complement each other.

Against certain lineups, I might swap Foster in there...but I think you nailed it.

imawhat
01-02-2010, 11:47 PM
That's basically my depth chart if I called the shots. It's amazing how well your front court can play when they complement each other.

Against certain lineups, I might swap Foster in there...but I think you nailed it.

That's definitely close to the rotation I'd prefer to see as well, once Granger/Dunleavy/Foster are healthy.

NapTonius Monk
01-03-2010, 12:03 AM
Two things I would like to have seen tonight:

- More AJ Price in the second half. He may have been the main difference between the great first and iffy second.

- More timouts by JOB when the thirty point lead started to dwindle. There were points where we dipped to 24, then below 20, where it would have helped to stop their momentum. You better betcha Rick Carlisle or Phil Jackson would have done just that.

But I'll take the win.

I was going to mention this. JOB doesn't seem to take a lot of timeouts when the momentum is shifting toward the other side.

Hoop
01-03-2010, 12:32 AM
I thought we were going to lose this game at the end, just because of the foul trouble. With all the foul trouble and not very many big body's available, we could have really used Hans tonight.

Even if we had lost, it would have still been one of the most enjoyable games of the season. The young guys played hard and performed pretty well.

Throw in Hans and healthy Granger and this is a team I can really like.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 12:36 AM
I was looking forward to some game reports. Did no one attend in person?

theboyjwo
01-03-2010, 12:45 AM
Good game, but I feel for McBob, after tomorrow night he'll be riding the pine, unfortunately he didn't show much tonight that would earn him extra playing time over Hans, or take some away from Murphy. He showed alot of heads up plays though, those intangibles. We thought it was Jeff Foster out there at first.

Roy ended up with a -2, again shows how dumb the +/- really is.

BornReady
01-03-2010, 12:54 AM
what did you guys think of aj price's playing on fellow rookie johnny flynn?

BornReady
01-03-2010, 12:55 AM
That play at the end where Hibbert blocked the shot and Mac came down with the rebound? Beautiful. I hope to see that combo many more times in the future.

Clearly we're not going to beat every team playing like this... the team is still short on talent. But I'd root for THIS team all season long, and I'll never complain about a loss if the guys lay it all on the floor like they did tonight. I think this rotation would have gotten us more wins so far than the one we've been using.

Once guys start coming back? I'd love to see something more like this:

Hibbert / Solo
McBob / Tyler
Granger / Dun
Jones / Brandon
Earl / Price

With Foster and Head rounding out the 12-man roster. Even without TJ or Troy, there's not enough minutes to go around.

how about luther head? hes been really great for us..

Hoop
01-03-2010, 01:04 AM
The people that have said McBob's going back to the bench real soon are probably right, unfortunately. It's a shame, because McBob shows something every time he gets playing time.

The kid has a really good basketball IQ. He's does things that do not necessarily show up in the stat box. His athleticism helps him keep balls alive even if he doesn't get the board himself. He makes good passes and he can actually create a shot for someone else, we have no other PF that can do that. His jump shot looks much improved over last season too.

I'd love to see Hans and McBob get most all the PF minutes. I like either one of them teamed up with Hibbert. I'd also like to see them even getting some minutes together.

pwee31
01-03-2010, 01:48 AM
refreshing win! Especially with the small ball we had to play. Nice way to start the new year!

PaceBalls
01-03-2010, 01:49 AM
The people that have said McBob's going back to the bench real soon are probably right, unfortunately. It's a shame, because McBob shows something every time he gets playing time.

The kid has a really good basketball IQ. He's does things that do not necessarily show up in the stat box. His athleticism helps him keep balls alive even if he doesn't get the board himself. He makes good passes and he can actually create a shot for someone else, we have no other PF that can do that. His jump shot looks much improved over last season too.

I'd love to see Hans and McBob get most all the PF minutes. I like either one of them teamed up with Hibbert. I'd also like to see them even getting some minutes together.

It would be easier to accept that if it were Danny Granger coming back and taking McBobs minutes, but the majority of his minutes will go to Murph. :banghead:

Naptown_Seth
01-03-2010, 02:44 AM
When 10 guys at a message board had the winning rotation figured out 20 games ago, it might be a sign your coach has problems.

Here's thing on "hey, JOB is finally getting it" - it took 3 years. I mean why does McRoberts start tonight? Not due to the last 2 games because he had 2 games just as good back to back last year and ended up planted on the bench right after that. If Jeff, Troy and Tyler are healthy do you really think Josh isn't in streets tonight?

TJ has been getting the green light so long it took J Jack going ballistic to fix it last year and then it started all over again this year.

Roy is your offensive anchor, you run plays off him and let him make those passes. He makes some mistakes but he more often makes really good passes to go with his own scoring ability. This allows you to set up your defense because if you do give up possession its down near the baseline typically. This was staring JOB in the face in Orlando where he coached the summer team, but when preseason hit he went right back to using Roy the way he had last year and asked him to keep up with the free wheeling runners instead.

I can't help but still think "too little, too late", although it's far better than not at all.



Josh did tip away tons of rebounds that either went out of bounds or were grabbed by another Pacer. There is no stat for that, or for rotating and forcing a guy to make another pass, but that's what he brings.

Price getting some legit PG time was great, he really keeps his cool even when he gets himself in trouble, like his drive where he got stuck under the rim with time winding down. Made the last second pass to get a short jumper rather than forcing up a dead shot against 2 bigger defenders like many guys would.

Rush looks better because he's playing with these system guys which puts him into his comfort zone. He lives for system play, for a traditional PG and a serious low post threat to work off of. In that style you see him recognize his role and responsibility much more, he anticipates where his shots are and what plays he'll need to make.


I guess if JOB has the guts and smarts to stick with what he's found he could win some games and keep his job. I don't know what to think because there are so many injuries that right now his only tough call is benching Ford. That's no small thing, but right now it's also only 1.5 games into it and with a team deep in the cellar. It's going to take a lot more to maintain this situation, or even tougher to actually go to Ford a little bit since he still clearly has impact value when used the right way.

Then again IMO Luther Head is filling the exact same role I'd have Ford in.

Hicks
01-03-2010, 02:54 AM
I was looking forward to some game reports. Did no one attend in person?

I was there.

AJ Price didn't disappoint (though to not deceive, he didn't wow either). I think he keeps the backup role for now.

This team was noticeably more pleasing to the eye and was red hot early, which happens when you combine smart passing with good shot making (off of looks created by the smart passing).

Mike still doesn't look right, but I noticed he doesn't wear a knee brace any more. You combine that with the fact that he's been cleared of any minute restrictions and can now exercise his legs, and I think it really isn't his knee giving him any serious trouble. I think it's something else (and I don't pretend to know what that is).

Rush looked better again tonight. More shots taken & made.

McRoberts looked nice again.

Roy had it going offensively and went 10 for 18 to go with 4 assists 3 blocks and I think 7 rebounds.

I'd like to see a healthy Danny and Tyler join this group and leave TJ and Murphy on the shelf.

Naptown_Seth
01-03-2010, 02:56 AM
Wow, I'd almost forgotten what that felt like.

I've said plenty already about who I'd like to see not playing, so I won't touch that issue. Let's just talk about the guys that played.

I missed the first half and part of the third quarter, so I'll just say this: I'm excited to see McBob getting the PT. Seth is going to be incorrigible.
And the thing is it shouldn't be this way. It's not a shocker that Josh had these kinds of games because he did so last year too. He just barely got the PT. About 4-5 times he saw decent minutes, had solid games all around, and then nothing. Then he showed the same thing in summer before the minor injury. Again deep bench.

All I was doing was reporting what was there for all to see. Nothing much has changed except that perhaps Josh is even better now because his awareness seems pretty sharp with little green left to it at all.

There shouldn't have been any reason for someone like me to say "um, what about the one on the back, the giant shiny thing just sitting there, isn't it worth something maybe".

I mean it's not like the team is so rich with talent and success that it can afford to throw players away is it?

Sookie
01-03-2010, 02:58 AM
Then again IMO Luther Head is filling the exact same role I'd have Ford in.

I'd assume that'd simply be, "scorer off the bench"

Then Luther is better at it. He can shoot, drives effectivly, and isn't turnover prone.

I'm curious to see how long the Ford benching lasts.

Personally, I hope Ford has to ACTUALLY beat out the two in front of him to get playing time.

Because I'll give Obie credit. He clearly likes to maintain the status quo, and is extremely uncomfortable with change. Price played a good game, but when things got tight, Obie stuck with Watson. Going back to what he knows. I can understand that choice, and with Watson, it certainly isn't a bad choice. But the choice shows one of Obie's weaknesses as a coach. He doesn't want things to change. So, the lineup changes have had to be hard for him. Benching Ford, has to be even harder. But I hope he continues doing it. Because JOB is right. The Watson/Price PG rotation DOES give Indiana the best chance of winning.

Naptown_Seth
01-03-2010, 03:04 AM
I was there.

I'd like to see a healthy Danny and Tyler join this group and leave TJ and Murphy on the shelf.
Good F Luck on that one. :mad:

I mean maybe, but it seems questionable unless a trade makes it happen. Guys like Price and Josh go to the bench with the same old rhetoric we know by heart to justify it. Perhaps Rush and Roy will lose minutes too and we can hear about how their defense is letting us down or they aren't making the right plays on offense or they are passing up open shots or they don't have enough confidence...

What I saw was that when you ran a more traditional offense with more traditional roles and had players in there that like those roles, they played good basketball. They played like they knew what they were doing and could do it pretty well.


My scouting on Price last year and the year before was "good 2nd round steal target, solid playmaker PG who likes to take charge and run an offense, can hit jumpers when needed and sometimes will take over the shooting...not an ace defender...mature player with good awareness".

That's still him IMO. Not a starter, maybe, but if he's the 5th most talented starter and his job is to stir the drink, then I can see that easily. I'm glad Watson is here so he's not just seeing Ford's game in action.

Naptown_Seth
01-03-2010, 03:07 AM
Hibbert has had 3 nice games in a row, but let's keep it in perspective as they were against Minnesota, Memphis, and Chicago. Let's not anoit him as the center of the future quite yet.
Yes, I mean Jefferson, M Gasol and Noah are all worthless dogs, not true measuring sticks.

Just like McRoberts vs Love or Ty Thomas tells us nothing, or Price vs Flynn.

duke dynamite
01-03-2010, 04:03 AM
Yes, I mean Jefferson, M Gasol and Noah are all worthless dogs, not true measuring sticks.

Just like McRoberts vs Love or Ty Thomas tells us nothing, or Price vs Flynn.
Seth, there are a lot of times I strongly agree with you, but regardless, Roy had a good game. He did what he needed to do TONIGHT to get the job done.

Sure they may not be top-NBA talent, but heck they played the game too and obviously it didn't work out too well for the Wolves now, didn't it?

I honestly don't think it matters if it's Howard or Love. If you can come away smelling like a rose then I'll take it.

Mr. Sobchak
01-03-2010, 04:21 AM
Duke - he's being sarcastic...

Trader Joe
01-03-2010, 04:32 AM
How many games do we win while Troy Murphy is in street clothes before it becomes a trend? I mean apparently 5 in a row wasn't enough.

Frankly, I'm so done with JOB at this point it isn't even funny. I don't even care if he sticks with this sort of youth is served rotation for the rest of the season. It is too ****ing late as far as I'm concerned when like Seth said, a bunch of guys on an internet message board were about a month ahead of your curve. I know I should be happy we won, but I see us play an exciting fun, brand of bball with Ford and Murphy logging zero time and I just think how in the hell does JOB not do this earlier?

Psycho T
01-03-2010, 04:49 AM
Its amazing how Hibbert looks like he knows what he is doing when Murphy isnt in the game.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 08:31 AM
I mean maybe, but it seems questionable unless a trade makes it happen. Guys like Price and Josh go to the bench with the same old rhetoric we know by heart to justify it.
If Obie says that Murph is going to come back and take Josh's place "because Troy understands what we're trying to do on defense" I just might lose it.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 08:53 AM
Here's a weird statement.


"We came out with good energy, didn’t have to dig ourselves out of a deep hole. We were having fun and playing good basketball. We tried to help each other on rebounding tonight, which opened up some paths for us."
What does that mean, exactly? It's hard for me not to think about the "Troy steals rebounds" meme, but I doubt that's what Roy meant by it.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 09:53 AM
Some of you guys just don't see the big picture. We have to play Murphy and Ford if we want to get something out of them in a trade this year. However looking at the other side of the coin they will be coming off the payroll in a year and a half anyway.

OakMoses
01-03-2010, 10:00 AM
One thing I noticed after getting to attend the Memphis game and watching the bench whenever I could during this game is that the bench guys (including Granger) seem to really react to AJ Price. Last night when he hit his first shot it was basically a meaningless jumper early in the game, but when he hits it Granger is out of his seat in his suit cheering him on. If we're going with the "players know who's good" theory, I'd guess that they know it's AJ.

At the Memphis game, I also noticed that the bench (again including Granger) was very into the game in the 4th quarter. It seems to me like there's a solid chemistry building between the new/young guys, and that the holdovers (Murph, Dun, Ford) are left on the outside trying to work their way in.

We all know that Murphy is going to play when he comes back. I don't mind that nearly as much as many people will. I just hope that we see less of the Murphy/Hibbert frontcourt. Roy gets exposed defensively when he's not playing alongside a more athletic player, and there's no reason to choose Troy over Roy.

The 3rd and 4th quarters did trouble me a bit. It often seems like once the motion in our offense dies, there's nothing that can be done to save it.

I really, really hope that we saw the real Brandon Rush tonight. I think that's a stat line he could put up very consistently for years to come.

OakMoses
01-03-2010, 10:01 AM
Some of you guys just don't see the big picture. We have to play Murphy and Ford if we want to get something out of them in a trade this year. However looking at the other side of the coin they will be coming off the payroll in a year and a half anyway.

I understand. It's just so much more fun to watch when they're not out there.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 10:07 AM
Some of you guys just don't see the big picture. We have to play Murphy and Ford if we want to get something out of them in a trade this year.
Why?

It's not like they're out there improving their trade value.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 10:30 AM
Why?

It's not like they're out there improving their trade value.

You've been here to long to play dumb with me, because I know you're not.

How about you answering your own question?

Unclebuck
01-03-2010, 10:41 AM
Two things I would like to have seen tonight:

- More AJ Price in the second half. He may have been the main difference between the great first and iffy second.

- More timouts by JOB when the thirty point lead started to dwindle. There were points where we dipped to 24, then below 20, where it would have helped to stop their momentum. You better betcha Rick Carlisle or Phil Jackson would have done just that.

But I'll take the win.

Phil Jackson? He hardly ever calls timeouts

Unclebuck
01-03-2010, 10:48 AM
When 10 guys at a message board had the winning rotation figured out 20 games ago, it might be a sign your coach has problems.



I first I figured you were being sarcastic. Winning rotation? Really? Beating the T-Wolves at home after they played the night before proves a winning rotation? I suppose by definition it won the game, but to suggest this is the winning rotation is way over-the-top. Looked to me like two of the three worst teams in the NBA playing.

I can see wanting the young guys to play for just to see the new guys or giving them a chance, but to claim this is a "winning rotation" that seems just wrong

Unclebuck
01-03-2010, 10:58 AM
How many games do we win while Troy Murphy is in street clothes before it becomes a trend? I mean apparently 5 in a row wasn't enough.



If we played the T-Wolves, Nets a slumping Knicks team - at the time an in turmnoil Wizards team and a terrible Warriors team, whether Murphy played or not the pacers would continue to win. The combined winning % of the teams the pacers have played when Murph has been out is probably 35% and probably 55% when he's been in the lineup.

Justin Tyme
01-03-2010, 11:10 AM
Clearly we're not going to beat every team playing like this... the team is still short on talent. But I'd root for THIS team all season long, and I'll never complain about a loss if the guys lay it all on the floor like they did tonight.


Absolutely, I can't agree more. This is type of play is what I've been missing. Even in losses if this type of play is shown I can live with the losses, but I can't live with the going thru the motions of a bunch of apathetic players.

Ballerzfan
01-03-2010, 11:53 AM
Once guys start coming back? I'd love to see something more like this:

Hibbert / Solo
McBob / Tyler
Granger / Dun
Jones / Brandon
Earl / Price

With Foster and Head rounding out the 12-man roster. Even without TJ or Troy, there's not enough minutes to go around.

The way Head's been playing, he needs more than just rounding out the roster space.

Justin Tyme
01-03-2010, 11:57 AM
Yes, I mean Jefferson, M Gasol and Noah are all worthless dogs, not true measuring sticks.


Sorry, I didn't see you mention those games where he was abused. Did you forget, didn't see the games, or it was just convenient to not mention them?

Yes, Hibbert had 3 nice games, but again they were against teams that at the time ALL had losing records. 3 games against losing teams does not make an 82 game season. AND yes, I'm enjoyed watching Hibbert play those games, but at the sametime I'm not ready to anoit Hibbert as the Pacers center of the future. I prefer to allow the season to playout b4 I prematurely climb on the Hibbert bandwaggon as some are doing. 10 good games this season out of 32 does not mean he's the future for the Pacers at center either, but I don't feel Jimmy's system/style has been the best for the development of Hibbert either. What I said was keep those 3 games in perspective. 3 games doesn't make a true indicator of Hibbert's quality for the future either. Those fans that do are just setting themselves up for a major let down if all Hibbert turns out to be nothing more than a journeyman center.

Yes, I've read your numerous posts about if Hibbert does turn out as b/u center that it's ok b/c he was drafted at #17. Sorry, I'm not buying it. If he does, then it was a waste of a draft pick when the Pacers could least afford it. Same applies to Rush.

Sookie
01-03-2010, 11:59 AM
If we played the T-Wolves, Nets a slumping Knicks team - at the time an in turmnoil Wizards team and a terrible Warriors team, whether Murphy played or not the pacers would continue to win. The combined winning % of the teams the pacers have played when Murph has been out is probably 35% and probably 55% when he's been in the lineup.

We don't beat the bad teams when he's in the rotation either. I think Josh has shown plenty enough that he deserves minutes.

Personally, I'd start Tyler, and play Troy when needed and Josh when needed. I don't think JOB can do that though, he's not good at anything that isn't systematic substitutions.

Tyler's got the best balance of offense and defense between the two. Troy could come in, score a few baskets, but really..don't play him too much. 99% of teams say defense wins basketball games. Well that means you play Josh ahead of Troy.

Justin Tyme
01-03-2010, 12:03 PM
Phil Jackson? He hardly ever calls timeouts


I was just waiting for you to chime in on that one.;)

Sookie
01-03-2010, 12:20 PM
“Tonight, we had great point-guard play by Earl Watson,” Jones said. “He got everybody the ball at the right times. Roy did a good job in the post. A.J. came off the bench and did a great job. Luther was steady at the shooting guard. Mike chipped in. It was a good team effort and a good chance to see everybody contribute and play hard.”

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100103/SPORTS/301039916/1008/SPORTS

any possibility that JOB decided to try AJ because that's what some of the leaders on the team wanted. *Dahntay, perhaps Granger and Maybe even Dun.*

It's not performance in games or practice that got him a chance. Because he would have already gotten one. It really isn't TJ's poor play either, because TJ's poor play has been pretty much consistent since the begining of the year. It's not the fans, because those that were calling for AJ, have been doing it for a while.

But Dahntay continues to make comments to the press that seem to clearly center around Ford. As said earlier, Granger really responds to AJ via cheering from the bench, and Dun looked a little better last night after seeming to hate life for a few games. But I say Dun, more because Dun seems like the type of person to get frustrated with a point guard that makes poor decisions. TJ does, AJ doesn't.

I think it's at least pretty clear this is something DJones wanted to happen.

edit: I missed this the first time. From the same article.

"“We’ve got good point guards,” he said. “We’ve just got to play off of them. When we do that, we’re a tough team. You know they’re going to push the ball, and they’re going to get everybody shots.” -Roy Hibbert.

TJ sits, and players give positive comments about the point guard play to the press. Seems pretty clear this IS something the players want.

Bball
01-03-2010, 12:29 PM
Some of you guys just don't see the big picture. We have to play Murphy and Ford if we want to get something out of them in a trade this year. However looking at the other side of the coin they will be coming off the payroll in a year and a half anyway.

The big picture is if the Pacers don't start and continue giving fans some hope for the future there won't be an Indiana Pacers. If rearranging the rotations and even benching some guys actually starts giving fans some glimpses of light at the end of the tunnel then you don't worry about trying to increase someone's trade value. Especially if their realistic trade value is mainly in being an expiring contract anyway.

IMHO...

PacerGuy
01-03-2010, 12:43 PM
What I liked about l/n was seeing the youth we have seemingly playing together like they have been doing so for years. I saw a calmness in the flurry of a 73 pt. half that I have not seen in a very long time. I also saw some individual performances that stood out:
-McBob: While I am no coach nor analyst, but I liked what I saw. Beyond the hussle he always brings, he showed a few things that I feel are worth pointing out. First was the confidence he seemed to play with. He was more fluid them I remember him being, & seemed to be playing basketball on instinct. He used his big body to his advantage on several occations to help jam the middle & used his athleticism & quickness to make some nice plays. His steal & his 3pt'er were fluid, instinctive & the right play at the right time. He looked like be belonged on the court & looked like he was/is ready for more opportunity. I for one hope he gets it.
-Price: What I notice most about AJ is what I don't notice - the fact that he is a rookie, 2nd rd pick, who has played just a handful of minutes. His body language is confident & his court communication rings of leadership. Just as importantly, the other players on the court w/ him played some of their best ball w/ him on the court. Rush for one seems to love having AJ out there. I also think AJ allowed McBob to play relaxed (as I'm sure they have played on the same unit in practice a lot). I would like to see AJ for 20 min. a game going forward. With J.Wall as the only projected PG in the top 2/3 of the draft, we may not be drafting a top talent there as I'm sure we would have hoped, so unless we get one in a trade, it looks like FA '11 as our next real shot at a top PG. That said, we need to know what we have in AJ as we plan for the future.
-B.Rush: Nice to see him play & not think. What was the difference - is it Watson & Price @ the point? Is it playing w/ a younger core, or is it playing w/ other scorers (Dun/Head) leaving him to just "do his thing"? Not sure what to think, but he looks like he was just ball'n, & I liked it!
-Hibby: :D...just...:D!!!

El Pacero
01-03-2010, 02:21 PM
Just got done watching the game on TV after watching at CFH last night. I think we're all in agreement here with this lineup, which is rare for this board, and hopefully JOB is going to use this same lineup against the Knicks. (Luther Head hasn't gotten enough props in this thread btw)

McFeisty proved he should get playing time and have the same chance as Hibbert & Rush to improve his game. If we always had either Hans, McBob and Foster in the lineup our movement and D would improve. That means someone needs to take out Troy's kneecaps, and if you can get TJ's in the same swipe I'll give you my Legends ticket.

BRushWithDeath
01-03-2010, 02:33 PM
Here's a weird statement.

Originally Posted by Roy Hibbert
"We came out with good energy, didn’t have to dig ourselves out of a deep hole. We were having fun and playing good basketball. We tried to help each other on rebounding tonight, which opened up some paths for us.

What does that mean, exactly? It's hard for me not to think about the "Troy steals rebounds" meme, but I doubt that's what Roy meant by it.

I'd say that's pretty much exactly what Roy meant by it.

McKeyFan
01-03-2010, 02:35 PM
When 10 guys at a message board had the winning rotation figured out 20 games ago, it might be a sign your coach has problems.

Here's thing on "hey, JOB is finally getting it" - it took 3 years. I mean why does McRoberts start tonight? Not due to the last 2 games because he had 2 games just as good back to back last year and ended up planted on the bench right after that. If Jeff, Troy and Tyler are healthy do you really think Josh isn't in streets tonight?

TJ has been getting the green light so long it took J Jack going ballistic to fix it last year and then it started all over again this year.

Roy is your offensive anchor, you run plays off him and let him make those passes. He makes some mistakes but he more often makes really good passes to go with his own scoring ability. This allows you to set up your defense because if you do give up possession its down near the baseline typically. This was staring JOB in the face in Orlando where he coached the summer team, but when preseason hit he went right back to using Roy the way he had last year and asked him to keep up with the free wheeling runners instead.

I can't help but still think "too little, too late", although it's far better than not at all.



Josh did tip away tons of rebounds that either went out of bounds or were grabbed by another Pacer. There is no stat for that, or for rotating and forcing a guy to make another pass, but that's what he brings.

Price getting some legit PG time was great, he really keeps his cool even when he gets himself in trouble, like his drive where he got stuck under the rim with time winding down. Made the last second pass to get a short jumper rather than forcing up a dead shot against 2 bigger defenders like many guys would.

Rush looks better because he's playing with these system guys which puts him into his comfort zone. He lives for system play, for a traditional PG and a serious low post threat to work off of. In that style you see him recognize his role and responsibility much more, he anticipates where his shots are and what plays he'll need to make.


I guess if JOB has the guts and smarts to stick with what he's found he could win some games and keep his job. I don't know what to think because there are so many injuries that right now his only tough call is benching Ford. That's no small thing, but right now it's also only 1.5 games into it and with a team deep in the cellar. It's going to take a lot more to maintain this situation, or even tougher to actually go to Ford a little bit since he still clearly has impact value when used the right way.

Then again IMO Luther Head is filling the exact same role I'd have Ford in.

A great post.

I'm quoting it to highlight my thanks to paragraphs 3,4,6, and 8.

But the first sentence is by far the best part.

Hicks
01-03-2010, 02:43 PM
A good point was made that we don't give Luther Head enough props. The guy was our 15th player acquired in the summer, yet when called upon he's putting up starting SG numbers. I'm very glad to have him around.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 03:17 PM
The big picture is if the Pacers don't start and continue giving fans some hope for the future there won't be an Indiana Pacers. If rearranging the rotations and even benching some guys actually starts giving fans some glimpses of light at the end of the tunnel then you don't worry about trying to increase someone's trade value. Especially if their realistic trade value is mainly in being an expiring contract anyway.

IMHO...

That big picture doesn't really apply to some fans because we don't live in Indy or go to games. The Pacers move and I'm still a fan.

Hicks
01-03-2010, 03:23 PM
That big picture doesn't really apply to some fans because we don't live in Indy or go to games. The Pacers move and I'm still a fan.

You are the minority.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 03:25 PM
You are the minority.

You wouldn't be a fan if they moved?

Bball
01-03-2010, 03:25 PM
That big picture doesn't really apply to some fans because we don't live in Indy or go to games. The Pacers move and I'm still a fan.

I don't know how to even reply to that logic in regards to the topic of the future of the Pacers.

Bball
01-03-2010, 03:27 PM
You wouldn't be a fan if they moved?

I wouldn't be.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 03:29 PM
I'm from Indiana and I don't want them to move. And I don't expect them to move as long as Mel is owner. However, if they moved to Seattle, etc., I would still follow them.

BRushWithDeath
01-03-2010, 03:30 PM
I wouldn't be.

Me neither.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 03:34 PM
In other words some of you aren't loyal to the team you are loyal to the Indiana Pacers? Not trying to start anything.

BRushWithDeath
01-03-2010, 03:36 PM
In other words some of you aren't loyal to the team you are loyal to the Indiana Pacers? Not trying to start anything.

You got it. If the Pacers moved to Seattle, I'd absolutely follow someone else until another team came to Indy.

pwee31
01-03-2010, 03:39 PM
In other words some of you aren't loyal to the team you are loyal to the Indiana Pacers? Not trying to start anything.


http://i48.tinypic.com/1gkdwz.gif


Are fans in Baltimore still pulling for the Colts?

Anthem
01-03-2010, 03:41 PM
I'd say that's pretty much exactly what Roy meant by it.
Yeah, the more I look at it the more that's what I think.

Hicks
01-03-2010, 03:41 PM
You wouldn't be a fan if they moved?

No.

Bball
01-03-2010, 03:44 PM
In other words some of you aren't loyal to the team you are loyal to the Indiana Pacers? Not trying to start anything.

If the team moved that would turn me off on them first off. So no, I would immediately cease being a fan of the Pacers. The NBA itself would drop several notches as well. It would be just about right there with the WWE without a local team to care about.

There's a chance a team might catch my attention for one reason or another (say a player with local/regional ties would make a huge splash)... but it would be different and it would certainly not be anything I'd follow closely (on forums, watching most every game, etc).

Hoop
01-03-2010, 04:28 PM
If they ever move, I most likely would have a hard time watching another NBA game again, much less watch or root for the Pacers.

Sollozzo
01-03-2010, 04:37 PM
That big picture doesn't really apply to some fans because we don't live in Indy or go to games. The Pacers move and I'm still a fan.


You're speaking for a tiny tiny minority. Your logic goes against the basic principles of being a professional sports fan, that is, most people root for the hometown team. That's why most fans of teams are in the city/state they play in. People root for the home team because it gives them civic pride. The "Indianapolis" or "Indiana" name is faaaaaaaaar more important to me than any particular franchise.

I like the Indiana Pacers because they represent my home state. If I never lived in Indiana again I would still want them to stay there because them being the Indiana Pacers would still be a connection for me to Indiana. Heck, if I lived in Seattle I wouldn't want them to come their, I want them to stay in Indiana. The only reason I root for them is because they are the home team. If I would have been born in Boston then I would have been a Celtics fan.

Sollozzo
01-03-2010, 04:38 PM
In other words some of you aren't loyal to the team you are loyal to the Indiana Pacers? Not trying to start anything.

Duh.

MrSparko
01-03-2010, 04:40 PM
If they left despite trying their best to stay but they just simply couldn't afford to (city refusing to give any money or many more years of horrible attendance) then I could understand them leaving.

If they leave because Mel's son takes over then they'll be completely dead to me.


Either way I would not follow them ever again.

imawhat
01-03-2010, 04:53 PM
Here's a weird statement.


What does that mean, exactly? It's hard for me not to think about the "Troy steals rebounds" meme, but I doubt that's what Roy meant by it.

I took it to mean "we had to help each other on rebounds because we didn't have a high quality rebounder in the game".

Justin Tyme
01-03-2010, 04:58 PM
Didn't this issue of whether you would still be a Pacers fan if they moved have it's own thread awhile back?

NuffSaid
01-03-2010, 05:00 PM
Very nice win by the Pacers even if it came against a sub .500 team like our own.

I think JOB has finally decided to play those players who truly epidomize the type of offense he wants to run: fast, mobile, athletic, aggressive.

I really didn't see all of those traits exhibited with some of the players he gave minutes to early on. Fortunately for some of us fans, injuries forced his hand. Now, let's hope the winning continues using these very same players.

I don't know about some of you, but the only injured players I'd like to see back on the court are Granger and Hansborough. Foster would be great in stretches, but I think Solo provides more offense and stronger defense as far as shoot blocking (although he didn't get a block last night, his height and aggressiveness forces players to alter their shots). I like Murpy's consistent performance, but I'd rather have a Big whose willing to work in the paint more than out along the perimeter. We could have used his rebounding, but overall I think I could live w/o having Murphy out there as long as Hibbert, Hansborough (when he returns), Solo and McRoberts are performing well.

imawhat
01-03-2010, 05:03 PM
http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100103/SPORTS/301039916/1008/SPORTS


“Tonight, we had great point-guard play by Earl Watson,” Jones said. “He got everybody the ball at the right times. Roy did a good job in the post. A.J. came off the bench and did a great job. Luther was steady at the shooting guard. Mike chipped in. It was a good team effort and a good chance to see everybody contribute and play hard.”


Great find. We rarely get quotes from other Indiana papers.

I bolded that last sentence because it's the most damning quote I've read all season. Both "chance" and "play hard" have several implications, and it looks like he's referring to TJ Ford AND the overall playing rotation.

BRushWithDeath
01-03-2010, 05:07 PM
I think JOB has finally decided to play those players who truly epidomize the type of offense he wants to run: fast, mobile, athletic, aggressive.



He didn't decide to do anything. Injuries forced his hand. The minute Murphy is back to health he'll be in there for 30+ per game.

Infinite MAN_force
01-03-2010, 05:15 PM
Larry really really needs to trade Murphy soon. Obrien benched TJ because his production sucked, but Murphy is a stat whore, his production is good and that coupled with his contract means he will get played. Bird is the only one who can solve this problem.

More Mcroberts and Hansbrough at power forward in 2010!!!!!!!!!!

speakout4
01-03-2010, 05:18 PM
How many games do we win while Troy Murphy is in street clothes before it becomes a trend? I mean apparently 5 in a row wasn't enough.
I wonder whether McRob and Tyler are really that good or is it just that with those two guys we have someone legitimately playing the PF position.

Murphy has always played at the 3 pt. line regardless of who the coach has been. Even with RC he played there as did Al Harrington. That's why no one wants these two because they come in PF bodies but want to play SF and for some reason they manage to get away with it. Getting Murphy for Al was like getting his twin.

Hicks
01-03-2010, 05:18 PM
He didn't decide to do anything. Injuries forced his hand. The minute Murphy is back to health he'll be in there for 30+ per game.

He decided to bench TJ Ford completely. Injuries had nothing to do with that.

1 down, (TJ), 1 to go (Murphy).

I think Murphy will play, though.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 05:21 PM
Murphy . . . production is good and that coupled with his contract means he will get played. Bird is the only one who can solve this problem.

Someone who gets it!:D

Of course Bird won't give Murphy away, so we have to be patient.

Bball
01-03-2010, 05:25 PM
Someone who gets it!:D

Of course Bird won't give Murphy away, so we have to be patient.

If Murphy is the problem, why not 'give' Murphy away or why keep playing him? What good does stacking up losses do if it makes the coach look like a fool and turns the fanbase off when better options exist.

Your position makes absolutely no sense to me.

imawhat
01-03-2010, 05:27 PM
I first I figured you were being sarcastic. Winning rotation? Really? Beating the T-Wolves at home after they played the night before proves a winning rotation? I suppose by definition it won the game, but to suggest this is the winning rotation is way over-the-top. Looked to me like two of the three worst teams in the NBA playing.

I can see wanting the young guys to play for just to see the new guys or giving them a chance, but to claim this is a "winning rotation" that seems just wrong

You don't get a 29 point lead without a winning rotation.

I don't understand the need to marginalize a refreshing win OR the 5 game winning streak, but I'm hoping you'll explain.

speakout4
01-03-2010, 05:30 PM
Bird's job is to get rid of either Murphy or Ford for the 2010 season and let the other guy's contract expire. We sign Dun at a much reduced amount like 4-5 if he shows signs of his old self.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 05:44 PM
I wonder whether McRob and Tyler are really that good or is it just that with those two guys we have someone legitimately playing the PF position.
Good call. I think it's the latter.

It's not that those guys are inherently more skillful than Troy (they're not), it's that they are able to do entirely different things. And those things are the things our team happens to really need right now.

Hicks
01-03-2010, 05:55 PM
And Troy Murphy's notable skills beyond 3's and defensive rebounds are....?

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 05:55 PM
If Murphy is the problem, why not 'give' Murphy away or why keep playing him? What good does stacking up losses do if it makes the coach look like a fool and turns the fanbase off when better options exist.

Your position makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well of course what I said wouldn't make sense to you since I don't agree with your opinions.

One for instant, I don't agree in giving assets away. Two, losses give us a real shot at John Wall who I think is going to be a special player.

It takes special players to win NBA championships. Think Wade, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan. Those stars are all special players that have NBA championships.

I don't want to just contend. I want a real chance! We need a special player to get a championship!

Justin Tyme
01-03-2010, 06:03 PM
Well of course what I said wouldn't make sense to you since I don't agree with your opinions.

One for instant, I don't agree in giving assets away. Two, losses give us a real shot at John Wall who I think is going to be a special player.

It takes special players to win NBA championships. Think Wade, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan. Those stars are all special players that have NBA championships.

I don't want to just contend. I want a real chance! We need a special player to get a championship!


AND who is picking this special player makes a hugh difference.

Bball
01-03-2010, 06:06 PM
Well of course what I said wouldn't make sense to you since I don't agree with your opinions.

One for instant, I don't agree in giving assets away. Two, losses give us a real shot at John Wall who I think is going to be a special player.

It takes special players to win NBA championships. Think Wade, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan. Those stars are all special players that have NBA championships.

I don't want to just contend. I want a real chance! We need a special player to get a championship!

So then you want to play Murphy in order to lose and tank the season?

I can understand deciding the future needs a shot in the arm, and continually trying to contend for the 8th seed in a weak EC isn't the way to move into the upper echelon of teams.

I just don't understand playing vets that are not helping the team while you have younger players you need to develop or see what you have. And that would also be the more traditional way to mount some short term losses for long term gains. We have this bizzarro situation in Pacerworld where our best chance for wins seems to be more on sitting some vets and playing a more traditional lineup utilizing our younger players.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 06:08 PM
And Troy Murphy's notable skills beyond 3's and defensive rebounds are....?
Come on, man, I'm trying hard not to kick the guy when he's down. I've been Troy's #1 detractor for 3 years, don't throw me off the bandwagon now.

To answer your question, I'd say that shooting and rebounding are pretty important NBA skills. Also, I buy Obie's take that Troy understands where he's supposed to be on the offensive and defensive systems. That's an important NBA skill as well.

Murph has NBA skills. They're just not the skills we need from our starting PF.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 06:12 PM
One for instant, I don't agree in giving assets away.
If you own a 50k house on a 100k mortgage, that's not an asset. It's a liability. If you have the chance to (legally and ethically) walk away from the mortage and house at the same time, you do that deal 10 times out of 10.

Anthem
01-03-2010, 06:13 PM
AND who is picking this special player makes a hugh difference.
I don't care how much a person dislikes Bird, nobody's suggesting that he'd pass on John Wall.

Will Galen
01-03-2010, 06:20 PM
Here's a bad scenario for you. Wall decides to stay in school and who then lucks into the #1 pick?

EDIT; Well . . . it's not to bad, just not optimum.

NuffSaid
01-03-2010, 06:56 PM
He didn't decide to do anything. Injuries forced his hand. The minute Murphy is back to health he'll be in there for 30+ per game.
Well, I did state as much...


Very nice win by the Pacers even if it came against a sub .500 team like our own.

I think JOB has finally decided to play those players who truly epidomize the type of offense he wants to run: fast, mobile, athletic, aggressive.

I really didn't see all of those traits exhibited with some of the players he gave minutes to early on. Fortunately for some of us fans, injuries forced his hand.
Still, it was good to finally see players out there who would play hard, stay aggressive and give strong effort for 48 minutes. That's all any fan can ask for.

And I just heard on the pre-game show that JOB will be going with the same lineup from last night. Can lightening strike twice this time against the Knicks?

Justin Tyme
01-03-2010, 07:13 PM
[QUOTE=Anthem;938130]I don't care how much a person dislikes Bird, nobody's suggesting that he'd pass on John Wall.[/QUOTE


You are right, even Bird couldn't screw up passing on Wall. I wasn't even considering the Pacers and John Wall. I figure that's a given the Pacers won't be in the running for Wall. The comment was directed towards the 5-7 or so pick. I'd rather have someone with more knowledge and expertise in evaluating talent in this range than Bird.

Trader Joe
01-03-2010, 10:17 PM
Here's a bad scenario for you. Wall decides to stay in school and who then lucks into the #1 pick?

EDIT; Well . . . it's not to bad, just not optimum.

First off, there is a snow ball's chance in hell of John Wall staying at UK for a second year.

Secondly, even if we got the number 1 pick, I hate to break it to everyone, but I don't think there's a very good chance that Bird selects Wall with it.

Hicks
01-03-2010, 10:20 PM
We're going to get a pick somewhere between #3 and #9, I think. Unless Danny makes a very big impact when he comes back.

vnzla81
01-03-2010, 10:22 PM
We're going to get a pick somewhere between #3 and #9, I think. Unless Danny makes a very big impact when he comes back.

I feel he same way too

Trader Joe
01-03-2010, 10:25 PM
I don't care how much a person dislikes Bird, nobody's suggesting that he'd pass on John Wall.

I just did.

This is a kid that got cited for B&E while in high school. Believe me, I don't think John Wall is a bad kid or even necessarily someone to be avoided (Though there are questions about his SATs also IIRC), but man if the Pacers were to take him and it blew up in their faces it'd be the death knell of this franchise.

Clearly, I'd take him without a second's hesitation, I think he makes Derrick Rose look downright average, but it's not my decision.

BRushWithDeath
01-03-2010, 10:47 PM
I just did.

This is a kid that got cited for B&E while in high school. Believe me, I don't think John Wall is a bad kid or even necessarily someone to be avoided (Though there are questions about his SATs also IIRC), but man if the Pacers were to take him and it blew up in their faces it'd be the death knell of this franchise.

Clearly, I'd take him without a second's hesitation, I think he makes Derrick Rose look downright average, but it's not my decision.

Bird is a lot of things. He isn't entirely stupid. He'd take Wall. No doubt about it.

Justin Tyme
01-04-2010, 12:46 AM
Bird is a lot of things. He isn't entirely stupid. He'd take Wall. No doubt about it.


My concern really isn't whether Bird would take John Wall, it's who he will draft at 3-9. I'm not up on the mock drafts, but with the rationale Bird has used to pick players in the draft the last 2 drafts who are the projected 1-10 players who have spent 4 years in college?

Sookie
01-04-2010, 12:49 AM
My concern really isn't whether Bird would take John Wall, it's who he will draft at 3-9. I'm not up on the mock drafts, but with the rationale Bird has used to pick players in the draft the last 2 drafts who are the projected 1-10 players who have spent 4 years in college?

Probably Hargondy or Singler.

Stanley Robinson is technically a senior..but...well I doubt Bird would pick him *good*

Wage
01-04-2010, 01:49 AM
My concern really isn't whether Bird would take John Wall, it's who he will draft at 3-9. I'm not up on the mock drafts, but with the rationale Bird has used to pick players in the draft the last 2 drafts who are the projected 1-10 players who have spent 4 years in college?

What rationale are you speaking of? We have no idea what Bird looks for in a top 10 pick.

The only thing we know is that picking 13+ in the draft is picking in "Role-player land", and that Bird seems to prefer his role-players to have 4 years of college under their belts.

Naptown_Seth
01-04-2010, 02:32 AM
I first I figured you were being sarcastic. Winning rotation? Really? Beating the T-Wolves at home after they played the night before proves a winning rotation? I suppose by definition it won the game, but to suggest this is the winning rotation is way over-the-top. Looked to me like two of the three worst teams in the NBA playing.

I can see wanting the young guys to play for just to see the new guys or giving them a chance, but to claim this is a "winning rotation" that seems just wrong
Buck, let's not play it naive. You don't really think I mean that the style or group I'm talking about should win 50 games right now. I know you don't think that.

We are talking about the difference between a 15 win team or a 35 win team. We are talking about a style and approach that with Danny back next season could win 45 games IF, IF, IF you adjust now, develop guys now, and start going in something closer to the direction we saw vs Minny.


We saw a different QUALITY of play. It's not the win, it's that there was a continuity between the players and a recognizable and sound strategy. I knew that while Jefferson could score at one end, we could come back and get a reliable score with Roy at the other.

Having a scoring solution AHEAD OF TIME that you can lean on gives a team some direction. Going down to offense wondering where the shot might come from and if it should be you or not is not a reassuring or motivating strategy.

See, that's the "sounds good on paper" aspect of JOB's solution from when he first arrived - "they'll play hard defense if I let them shoot at will on offense". I don't think quality players actually feel that way. They don't want to be "let free", they want to sense a real direction and method. I think that's more true for young players coming from solid college backgrounds. 3-4 years at places like Duke, Gtown and KS teach you the benefit of organized play at both ends.

So how do you motivate a guy like Roy or DJones with "run n gun" as the first 10 pages of the offensive playbook. Bust butt on defense and you earn the chance to squander it 5 seconds into the clock with an undeveloped barely open long jumper.



I think we see from week to week a slow, almost grudging change in either rotations or strategies. I guess that's good, but the fact that it feels like we have to watch answers scream out for so long before they are acknowledged bugs me.

And then it means we complain for months instead of days and it turns into some fanboy club to people that disagree. We suddenly aren't saying "hey, play Price a little, let's check him out" and turns into "Price is the greatest, he'll take the team to the Finals"...but we were never saying that at all.

Spirit
01-04-2010, 02:55 AM
If we pick anywhere past #1 i'm betting we'd take Cole Aldrich or Evan Turner.

McKeyFan
01-04-2010, 02:55 AM
Well, our winning Minny line up laid an egg tonight.

But, that's .500 ball, a lot better then our recent 8 game losing streak.

I hope JOB gives this crew a few more games to see how they do.

Bball
01-04-2010, 02:58 AM
Bust butt on defense and you earn the chance to squander it 5 seconds into the clock with an undeveloped barely open long jumper.

About the only issue I have with that comment is in fact I don't think you necessarily have to bust butt on the defensive end to actually please O'Brien...

Justin Tyme
01-04-2010, 08:56 AM
We have no idea what Bird looks for in a top 10 pick.


AND it scares the heck out of me.

Bird is trying to rebuild and he's using a conservative approach to doing it, so why would one expect Bird to change? Bird CAN'T afford to screw up this draft, so he'll take the conservative approach again.

Unclebuck
01-04-2010, 09:38 AM
Buck, let's not play it naive. You don't really think I mean that the style or group I'm talking about should win 50 games right now. I know you don't think that.

We are talking about the difference between a 15 win team or a 35 win team. We are talking about a style and approach that with Danny back next season could win 45 games IF, IF, IF you adjust now, develop guys now, and start going in something closer to the direction we saw vs Minny.


We saw a different QUALITY of play. It's not the win, it's that there was a continuity between the players and a recognizable and sound strategy. I knew that while Jefferson could score at one end, we could come back and get a reliable score with Roy at the other.



This team with Danny isn't going to win 35 games. 45 games next season? unless there are huge upgrades of talent from several positions? I don't see that as a possibility. OK, I'll play along though, a lineup with Roy, Tyler, Danny, Price (I don't know who you want at shooting guard) with Josh backiong up. They might win 32 games if things fall right and if they have a decent shooting guard.

This whole idea that you and others are trying to sell bothered me all day yesterday, the 5 game winning streak legend and all the issues related to that just really bothers me. I have been on Pacers message boards since October of 2000 and this specific issue has me about as upset as I have been.

I know I have not done a good job arguing against it, mainly because I don't know the best method too - probably time will show how meaningless those 5 games were.

JB24
01-04-2010, 09:39 AM
Wasn't Bird looking to move up to grab Tyreke Evans last year? Seeing as he was one of the riskiest players in the lottery, i'd say that was anything but conservative.