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Hicks
01-02-2010, 11:26 AM
http://www.indycornrows.com/2010/1/2/1230301/pacers-city-of-indianapolis-deep
From IndyCornRows on his self-titled website.



Pacers, City Of Indianapolis Deep In Negotiations To Keep Franchise In Indy

The City of Indianapolis and the Indiana Pacers are in the midst of weekly negotiations at the moment to keep the franchise settled in the Hoosier State.

According to the Indianapolis Star (http://www.indystar.com/article/20100102/NEWS05/1020318/10-could-be-banner-year-for-Ballard), members of the city's Capital Improvement Board and Pacers officials are meeting as often as twice a week to try to come to a conclusion about the team's future. Paul Okeson, Mayor Greg Ballard's former chief of staff, has become the lead negotiator for the city and he's given the city and team a deadline to finalize the deal -- April.

The story broke this summer that the Pacers were hemorrhaging money to try to operate Conseco Fieldhouse throughout the year. The Pacers organization said that in order to break even financially, the franchise needs assistance from the CIB to operate the building. Today's Star story did not give a number that the Pacers are asking for in the negotiations. Mayor Ballard gave the Star the following quote:



"There's no question I'd like to have the Pacers here. (But) we have to make sure it's the right deal for the taxpayer." -- Mayor Greg Ballard


Hopefully we'll begin hearing more about these meetings and get some numbers on what exactly the Pacers are needing to make this work and stay in Indianapolis.


I tend to feel confident about Herb Simon keeping the team here, but then when I'm reminded this may come down to our local government's spending, I start to dread that they're going to essentially give us the finger after bending over for the Colts.

This April deadline would be sickeningly fitting if it goes badly because the season and the franchise could end at the same time.....

Los Angeles
01-02-2010, 11:32 AM
At least there's a silver lining: you changed your avatar. :thumbup:

Putnam
01-02-2010, 11:36 AM
If the Pacers stay, the city owns the building and has a major league tenant for 41 nights a year to help defray the costs.

If the Pacers go, the city still owns the building and has nothing.


The Pacers aren't going to get a sweetheart deal. they aren't going to get paid to use the fieldhouse. But I hope the new arrangement will reestablish the proper relationship, wherein the city owns and operates the building, and the Pacers pay rent to use it.


Good luck, Pacers!
Man up, Ballard!

Brad8888
01-02-2010, 11:46 AM
So, will Indianapolis make the Irsay's "pony up" to keep the Pacers as the Simon's probably did back in the days of the Hudnut administration to help the Colts come here and help further revitalize downtown, or will the media attention to the Pacers plight cause more short term interest in the team to help attendance and secure enough interest from other interested parties to bail out the Pacers?

I doubt that any significant tax increase would be able to be passed to support a franchise that many people simply don't have any interest in following. If that were to have been a viable option, it would have been done last year, or this past summer, in my opinion.

Dr. Awesome
01-02-2010, 11:54 AM
Most people will probably think I'm crazy for saying this, but if they did move, it wouldn't effect me much at all. I would still be a die hard fan. I live in Charlotte anyway and have no ties to Indy.

Obviously I want them to stay, but I'm still a fan regardless. I know the Thunder lost a lot of Seattle fans with the move.

smj887
01-02-2010, 11:55 AM
Can someone explain or just give me a link that explains how the current deal is set up? As I understand it, the Pacers pay the operating costs for Conseco and are just looking to have the city subsidize that a little so that they don't continue to lose money. But I feel like I'm missing a key point(s) here.

B00sh
01-02-2010, 11:56 AM
Where would to Pacer move anyways?

Bball
01-02-2010, 11:57 AM
and the Pacers pay rent to use it.

Don't they currently already pay to rent it... something like 1.00??

Brad8888
01-02-2010, 11:57 AM
If the Pacers stay, the city owns the building and has a major league tenant for 41 nights a year to help defray the costs.

If the Pacers go, the city still owns the building and has nothing.


The Pacers aren't going to get a sweetheart deal. they aren't going to get paid to use the fieldhouse. But I hope the new arrangement will reestablish the proper relationship, wherein the city owns and operates the building, and the Pacers pay rent to use it.


Good luck, Pacers!
Man up, Ballard!

But, does the city share of the in game revenue for those 41 nights (43 to 45 if preseason is counted) cover the direct operating cost of the fieldhouse to more than a breakeven status, or is that simply going to add insult to injury from a financial standpoint? If it does not, then do the taxes collected by the city from the economic impact on downtown and Indianapolis in general from increased economic activity outweigh the overall net operating loss suffered by the city for operating the fieldhouse for Pacers games? My guess is that it is not right now, but that there is speculation that it will in the future, which would be the basis for any negotiations that may preserve the continued presence of the Pacers in Conseco Fieldhouse.

The very rough ride continues, and might even be weighing on the minds of the players at this point to an extent.

MillerTime
01-02-2010, 11:59 AM
Most people will probably think I'm crazy for saying this, but if they did move, it wouldn't effect me much at all. I would still be a die hard fan. I live in Charlotte anyway and have no ties to Indy.

Obviously I want them to stay, but I'm still a fan regardless. I know the Thunder lost a lot of Seattle fans with the move.

I also dont live in Indy, I dont even live in America, but I would still want the Pacers to remain in Indy. Indy has so much basketball history, they have to have a NBA team

Dr. Awesome
01-02-2010, 12:02 PM
I also dont live in Indy, I dont even live in America, but I would still want the Pacers to remain in Indy. Indy has so much basketball history, they have to have a NBA team

Oh yea, I really want them to stay too. I was just saying that if they didn't, it wouldn't effect me as a fan of them. I'd still be a die hard fan.

Putnam
01-02-2010, 12:18 PM
Brad8888 asks some important detailed question about the economics and bottom line of Conseco Fieldhouse. I'm sure that the negotiators for the city and the Pacers are going into it at a very deep level. They are going to have to burn a lot of midnight oil to get the best deal for all concerned.

But the pivotal and fundamental fact is that the building was built by and financed by the city under its Capital Improvements Board, and that the losses are theirs to bear. The original agreement gave the Pacers the privilege of managing the whole facility through 2009, and also gave the Pacers the privilege of renegotiating the deal after 2009. It is still going on only becauser the city is dragging its feet. But the Pacers are not breaking a deal -- they are simply exercising a clause in the contract that allows them to continue managing the facility or not after 2009. In other words:

The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
We're gonna give it back.


.

Bball
01-02-2010, 12:43 PM
Brad8888 asks some important detailed question about the economics and bottom line of Conseco Fieldhouse. I'm sure that the negotiators for the city and the Pacers are going into it at a very deep level. They are going to have to burn a lot of midnight oil to get the best deal for all concerned.

But the pivotal and fundamental fact is that the building was built by and financed by the city under its Capital Improvements Board, and that the losses are theirs to bear. The original agreement gave the Pacers the privilege of managing the whole facility through 2009, and also gave the Pacers the privilege of renegotiating the deal after 2009. It is still going on only becauser the city is dragging its feet. But the Pacers are not breaking a deal -- they are simply exercising a clause in the contract that allows them to continue managing the facility or not after 2009. In other words:

The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
We're gonna give it back.


.

Putnam,
That may be true but how do we sleep when our beds are burning?

MikeDC
01-02-2010, 02:52 PM
There were some bits about the Pacers in an article (http://www.indystar.com/article/20100102/NEWS05/1020318/10-could-be-banner-year-for-Ballard) about the Mayor looking for a "signature achievment".

Pacers negotiations

Members of the city's Capital Improvement Board and Indiana Pacers officials are meeting as often as twice a week to try to come to a conclusion about the team's future in the city.

Paul Okeson, Ballard's former chief of staff, who is taking the lead on negotiations with the team, said the parties need to come to an agreement by the time the Pacers' regular season ends in April.

Team officials insist they want to stay in Indianapolis. But the Pacers have made it clear they need assistance from the CIB in operating Conseco Fieldhouse if they are going to break even financially -- a factor that will determine whether they can continue to operate here.

CIB members would not say how much the team is seeking. They are trying to determine how much money the CIB would be able to offer the team and how much support there is for offering it.

Keeping the team in Indianapolis, leaders say, brings an economic development benefit to the city, a point Ballard underscored last week.

"There's no question I'd like to have the Pacers here," Ballard said. "(But) we have to make sure it's the right deal for the taxpayer."

Putnam
01-02-2010, 03:14 PM
I don't like the way this is written.


CIB members would not say how much the team is seeking. They are trying to determine how much money the CIB would be able to offer the team and how much support there is for offering it.

"how much the team is seeking"

"how much money the CIB would be able to offer the team"


This makes it sound like the Pacers are asking for a handout, and that's not a honest description of the facts. The article was written by a new reporter (see below) and she doesn't have the facts straight.

By Francesca Jarosz (francesca.jarosz@indystar.com)
Posted: January 2, 2010




.

Drewtone
01-02-2010, 03:43 PM
Most people will probably think I'm crazy for saying this, but if they did move, it wouldn't effect me much at all. I would still be a die hard fan. I live in Charlotte anyway and have no ties to Indy.

Obviously I want them to stay, but I'm still a fan regardless. I know the Thunder lost a lot of Seattle fans with the move.

I don't think you're crazy, but on the other side of the argument, I don't even live in the US anymore, but if the Pacers moved, that'd probably be it for me and the NBA.

BlueNGold
01-02-2010, 03:48 PM
This is a very bad time to be negotiating with local government. I certainly hope something gets worked out, but when schools are getting cut....

Ah, what the heck. They had a billion to throw at a stadium that will be empty in a few years after Manning retires.

the jaddler
01-02-2010, 03:49 PM
I would have to agree that it seems like the Indy along with its mayor are dragging there feet and trying to make the most money possible for there extremly broken CIB.....they have bent over backwards for the Colts(who i also love) but i think it would be horrible of the city and cost the city and whole state a lot of money and a lot of heartache!!!!

the jaddler
01-02-2010, 03:51 PM
This is a very bad time to be negotiating with local government. I certainly hope something gets worked out, but when schools are getting cut....

Ah, what the heck. They had a billion to throw at a stadium that will be empty in a few years after Manning retires.

im going to have to agree its getting riduclous with all these schools taking major cuts....when they have pretty much cut everything extra over the last 5 years....whats next.......no school at all.....thats where its heading.....and if they start to talk about how test scores and graduation rates start to drop.....well we will know why!!!!

The goverment pocketbook is very empty right now.....and only because of it being abused!

Peck
01-02-2010, 03:58 PM
I don't like the way this is written.



"how much the team is seeking"

"how much money the CIB would be able to offer the team"


This makes it sound like the Pacers are asking for a handout, and that's not a honest description of the facts. The article was written by a new reporter (see below) and she doesn't have the facts straight.

By Francesca Jarosz (francesca.jarosz@indystar.com)
Posted: January 2, 2010




.

How do you know?

MikeDC
01-02-2010, 04:03 PM
I don't like the way this is written.

"how much the team is seeking"

"how much money the CIB would be able to offer the team"

This makes it sound like the Pacers are asking for a handout, and that's not a honest description of the facts. The article was written by a new reporter (see below) and she doesn't have the facts straight.

What are the facts? Because I've been trying to read up on it this afternoon and I've come to the conclusion that there are many relevant facts I just can't find.

What I can put together is that
1. The building itself is owned by the CIB (ie the public) and the public paid for it.

2. The Pacers made a variety of rental agreements.
A) They agreed to pay $3.4M/year for ten years to the CIB for parking spaces and whatnot. I believe that comes to an end this year, and is probably one of the items up for negotiation.
B) I've seen an estimate that the city collects about $8M in tax revenue related to the operation of CFH per year.
C) The Pacers maintain the CFH at a cost of about $15M/yr and
D) The Pacers get all revenues related to renting it out when the Pacers are not playing, which amounts to ???/yr

3. Since the Pacers are breaking this deal, I assume the ??? in D is quite a bit less than $15M/yr

4. The Pacers pay no rent to CIB, but there is a clause in the contract that if they break their lease before, I guess, 2020, they have to pay something on the order of $100-250M penalty. Ouch.

5. The city still owes $ ??? to bondholders on the fieldhouse and spends ??? year associated with it.

Absent more facts, I think the jist of things is that the Pacers got an extremely lucrative deal and got pretty much the building they wanted.

If they've failed to make money on it, it's largely through poor management on their part, because they planned and manage the thing.

Now, for the city going forward, they would currently seem to have only $8M/yr coming in. So taking on $15M/yr in expenses to make an extra $8M/yr in revenues would seem silly. They'd be better off shutting the thing down.

Of course, those aren't the only expenses are revenues involved, but without having some idea of the amounts, I'm having a pretty hard time seeing why the City doesn't just play hard ball and say "fine, leave and pay us the $200M penalty for breaking the lease".

Putnam
01-02-2010, 04:32 PM
How do you know?

I'm sure the Pacers are seeking a less costly arrangement. But they are seeking it in the context of a renegotiated contract, as MikeDC notes in his point 2A. The Pacers are not busting the deal, or asking for a handout separate from the deal.

That is what I mean by not "asking for a handout." I think I do know that much for a fact. I don't know much more than that, admittedly.

McKeyFan
01-02-2010, 04:44 PM
This gets into a question I asked in a thread years ago: what or who do we really root for?

The players?
The coach?
The GM?
The owner?
The City?
The logo and brand?

For me, I started rooting for a really good, fundamental basketball team back in the mid nineties. I had a bit of a roadblock to negotiate when I realized a few years in that I was really more of a Larry Brown fan than a Pacers fan.

But by then I had connected with the players and the new coaches and the fanbase and the posters on Pacers Digest. So I continued to be a Pacer fan.

But I think a lot of that has to do with the culture of Indiana, a fanbase that values fundamentals and hustle and defense, and guys like Bird that somewhat embody those values.

If the Pacers moved to a different town, it would be difficult for me to stay on board.

There's no particular player drawing me in.

I don't care about the brand and logo.

I could give two cents who the owners are.

I do like Bird, so far anyway. If he moved with the franchise, I might give them a chance. I certainly doubt he would move, though.

If a majority of the members on Pacers Digest stuck with the transplanted team, I would also give them a new chance. But I doubt that would happen as well.

My guess: a non Indiana Pacer team would lose my interest. All I would have left is golf.

the jaddler
01-02-2010, 04:56 PM
i would have to somewhat agree with you. but i would have to put it like this i am a fan of indiana.....so therefore i am a fan of the pacers....the colts.......the ice(not that minor league hockey really matters)

i think i would be more sad and disapponited if the pacers didnt stay in indiana, because of all the things that stand for the indiana pacers and all the great memories they have with the great city and great state of indiana!

PacerDude
01-02-2010, 05:05 PM
I'm sure the Pacers are seeking a less costly arrangement. But they are seeking it in the context of a renegotiated contract, as MikeDC notes in his point 2A. The Pacers are not busting the deal, or asking for a handout separate from the deal.

That is what I mean by not "asking for a handout." I think I do know that much for a fact. I don't know much more than that, admittedly.Doesn't matter how it's worded - the Pacers are looking to make more money on the deal. The Pacers are seeking more money. The CIB is trying to figure out how much they can offer the team. The Pacers get more, the CIB less. True figures more than likely lie inbetween what the Pacers want and what the CIB says it can afford. We'll never know the details

It's a business negotiation. Each side is going to start off playing tough, the closer to April it gets, the softer each side will be. If it's a financially sound decision for both sides, it'll all work out. If not ...............

MikeDC
01-02-2010, 05:05 PM
This gets into a question I asked in a thread years ago: what or who do we really root for?
...
My guess: a non Indiana Pacer team would lose my interest. All I would have left is golf.

I think it's a combination of things that vary from fan to fan (hence disagreement about what being a fan means) but the tie that binds it all together is some continuity, common goal and common experience.

The continuity of being Pacers for a while let's us get to know players, coaches and managers and like them (or not). The common goal of winning, even though we as fans only experience it on the outside, draws everyone together. We like to cheer for winners, players and coaches like to win. And the experience of the struggle to win, whether we do or not, creates a bond.

Squirrelz
01-02-2010, 06:09 PM
If the Pacers stay, the city owns the building and has a major league tenant for 41 nights a year to help defray the costs.

If the Pacers go, the city still owns the building and has nothing.


The Pacers aren't going to get a sweetheart deal. they aren't going to get paid to use the fieldhouse. But I hope the new arrangement will reestablish the proper relationship, wherein the city owns and operates the building, and the Pacers pay rent to use it.


Good luck, Pacers!
Man up, Ballard!
You just made my day with that post. :)

sportfireman
01-02-2010, 06:39 PM
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