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Hicks
12-31-2009, 01:01 PM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2009/12/obrien_sends_a.html
Mike Wells
IndyStar.com



THE `HOUSE - The best move of the night wasn't Josh McRoberts catching a couple more alley-oops from Earl Watson. Those were nice plays, but something better stood out.

I thought the best move was by coach Jim O'Brien when he quit trying to give his veteran players an opportunity to play and went with a different group of players.

That group, led by Luther Head and Roy Hibbert, was scrappy and they played as a team.
That's all you can ask for from Head, Hibbert, McRoberts, Earl Watson, Brandon Rush and A.J. Price.

Hibbert scored a career-high 25 points to go with 13 rebonds. Head tied his career high of 30 points.

O'Brien tried to downplay benching T.J. Ford the entire second half and only playing Dunleavy for about three minutes in the second half.

"We went away from them, not a big deal, just played the guys I thought we had the best chance to win with in the second half," O'Brien said.

I don't see it that way. That's a huge deal, especially for Dunleavy, who O'Brien has always held in high regard.

Dunleavy isn't the same player.

I know he's still working his way into shape on the fly because the Pacers haven't had a lot of practice time, but he doesn't seem comfortable on the court.

He's just 10-of-52 from the field in the last six games.

Dunleavy, who normally ices down for several minutes after games, had already dressed and left the locker room by the time I got in there.

**********************

I've said it in the past and I'll continue to say it, this is a bad mix of players for the Pacers.

Their team chemistry is out of whack, but it's going to be difficult for them to pull off a trade.

Swingman Dahntay Jones reiterated what he said late last week and in Miami earlier this week about the state of the team.

"We have to assess ourselves and be honest," he said. "Certain people are not fighting as hard as others. We have to find a way to bring it every night."

Jones didn't go into details on who he was talking about.

The pieces continue to fall apart for the Pacers.

twitter.com/wells222


I found that interesting.

90'sNBARocked
12-31-2009, 01:06 PM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2009/12/obrien_sends_a.html
Mike Wells
IndyStar.com



I found that interesting.

What to me was very telling is how even the team knows there is no chemistry and it is a bad mix. I dont know how to explain it properly, but the positive emotions from last year are well gone.

Was Jack/Daniels that important?

Were Watson, Jones, Jones, bad pickups?

I really don't know, but the ship is going down like the titanic.

What really bothered me last night is, I was bored. Bored watching a Pacers game, when last year my schedule was made AROUND the Pacers


I think we are hopefully at the "acceptance" stage

meaning, realize that there is no playoffs this year, so sit back and watch the youngins and the season unfold and enjoy the time before the draft and 2011-2012

BPump33
12-31-2009, 01:54 PM
What to me was very telling is how even the team knows there is no chemistry and it is a bad mix. I dont know how to explain it properly, but the positive emotions from last year are well gone.

Was Jack/Daniels that important?

Were Watson, Jones, Jones, bad pickups?

I really don't know, but the ship is going down like the titanic.

What really bothered me last night is, I was bored. Bored watching a Pacers game, when last year my schedule was made AROUND the Pacers


I think we are hopefully at the "acceptance" stage

meaning, realize that there is no playoffs this year, so sit back and watch the youngins and the season unfold and enjoy the time before the draft and 2011-2012


Yes, with this team Jack Daniels is very important. :D

Hicks
12-31-2009, 02:05 PM
By the way, the most interesting thing to me was the Dunleavy bit.

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 02:10 PM
Dunleavy is still injured, recovering, and trying to get into decent shape to play NBA ball. I don't read anything else into it. He's frustrated by the injury and trying to get back into it. It probably will be next year before he might be back to what he was, if he ever gets there. Remember the original diagnosis was he would be out until at least January.

Note: there is a rather lengthy discussion about poor player chemistry in Peck's Quick thoughts about the loss to the Grizz

90'sNBARocked
12-31-2009, 02:11 PM
Yes, with this team Jack Daniels is very important. :D

You know maybe we should advocate the "Ron Artest approach"

Drink before games and then you will forget how bad we are :)

Major Cold
12-31-2009, 02:12 PM
I don't think it is as much Watson/Head/Jones not meshing with each other as much as them not meshing with the existing players.

90'sNBARocked
12-31-2009, 02:13 PM
By the way, the most interesting thing to me was the Dunleavy bit.

I don't want to act like I predicted this but I truly thought Dunleavy would struggle after a few games and the knee starts again. Very disheartening, sure, but if anyone can beat the odds it's a player that cares the amount I believe Dunleavy does

theboyjwo
12-31-2009, 02:14 PM
Dunleavy is still injured, recovering, and trying to get into decent shape to play NBA ball. I don't read anything else into it. He's frustrated by the injury and trying to get back into it. It probably will be next year before he might be back to what he was, if he ever gets there. Remember the original diagnosis was he would be out until at least January.

Note: there is a rather lengthy discussion about poor player chemistry in Peck's Quick thoughts about the loss to the Grizz

i tend to agree with you here. Heck the guy only played 16 minutes tonight, probably didn't even need to ice his knee.

jhondog28
12-31-2009, 02:55 PM
I will talk to the family and see if they have any word into what Mike is feeling right now. I have my suspicions that someone in the front office may have told him they are trying to include him in a trade. No evidence yet just a gut feeling. I have never seen him look the way he does right now. he almost seems disinterested to be out on the court. That is not the type of Mike Dunleavy i know.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2009, 03:31 PM
Dunleavy is still injured, recovering, and trying to get into decent shape to play NBA ball. I don't read anything else into it. He's frustrated by the injury and trying to get back into it. It probably will be next year before he might be back to what he was, if he ever gets there. Remember the original diagnosis was he would be out until at least January.

Note: there is a rather lengthy discussion about poor player chemistry in Peck's Quick thoughts about the loss to the Grizz
Buck, I'm getting pretty frustrated with this bizarre need to explain away issues with things that don't even make sense.

Look at Dun's playing time and output last year. Explain to me how those circumstances were different. Was he not coming off no playing time while recovering from injury? Was he not, in fact, playing with an injury during those return games? Did he not play and shoot better than he has been the last few weeks this year?

The idea that it takes 3 weeks or more for an NBA player to get into enough shape to go better than 2-17 from the floor is ridiculous, and I can't believe that you genuinely believe it yourself.

Reggie's final year he returned early from an injury due to the brawl. His first two games he lit it up, then in his 2nd and 3rd week he slumped (5 games total) though he had a 6-12 and 6-13 in the middle. Then just 18 games after his first game back he went 10-15.

Foster also came back early from injury that year. His first 2 games were modest by his standards, around 30 mpg and 6 and 8 boards, shooting 4-5 and 4-6. Then he ripped off a stretch of games in the next 3 weeks for huge rebounds: 18, 11, 18, 18, 12, 16, 10, 5, 16, 10 and in all but 3 of those games he got more offensive boards than missed shots (not just piling up his stats) and one of those was 2 Oreb on a 9-12 shooting night.


Dun is now a full month out and looks worse than he did even 2 weeks in.

It took him till Jan to play last year, and a month after that he was playing 35 mpg and shooting 10-18, 6-18, 8-15, 7-15 for 47% in those games. Two games later he was done for the year.

So both he and other players get back up to game speed way too soon to be the explanation here. Something else is wrong. Either he's had it with JOB or the team or he's hurt again and doesn't want anyone to know.

Tom White
12-31-2009, 03:38 PM
Seth - I understand what you are saying. But what if the team has brought him back before he was in any way ready/healthy? Would that not slow down his entire process of getting back into game shape? Haven't a number of posters, in the past, suggested that JO came back too soon, and that it wound up being more detrimental to his physical well being?

Speed
12-31-2009, 03:39 PM
Something else is wrong. Either he's had it with JOB or the team or he's hurt again and doesn't want anyone to know.

Interesting, this is how I'm leaning too.

I guess it could just be a horrible slump that's just really disappointing to him, I'm just not sure I believe that though.

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 03:44 PM
Buck, I'm getting pretty frustrated with this bizarre need to explain away issues with things that don't even make sense.

Look at Dun's playing time and output last year. Explain to me how those circumstances were different. Was he not coming off no playing time while recovering from injury? Was he not, in fact, playing with an injury during those return games? Did he not play and shoot better than he has been the last few weeks this year?



LOL

Mike is recovering from a very serious injury, and the team has been playing a ton of games lately. Mike's not even allowed to lift weights with his legs.

Seth, honestly I don't know what the heck you mean though. Didn't he have the surgery after he tried and failed to come back last season.

OK, what I find a little bizarre is why so many feel the need to attach some dubious motive to a player trying to come back from a serious injury.

OK, this post is all over the map - I'll admit it not making much sense

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2009, 04:09 PM
All over the map.

You say Dun needs more time to recover.

I then counter that with 3 examples of players that recovered quicker - Reggie, Foster and Dun himself. I show "recover" in terms of productive stats and compare that against the time frame it took for that recovery. (Recovery being cardio-endurance since the problem has been fixed and his muscle will have been building during his increased activity, not getting worse.)

This shows that Mike is beyond the window of recovery, especially when you realize that the best comparison example is with himself and that he put up better numbers after a recovery period WHILE STILL INJURED.

Mike showed us last year how long it took to find his game legs after not playing for a long time, and did so while his game legs were still injured it turned out.


What was Mike doing last year when he recovered and then returned? Oh, back then he wasn't playing 35 mpg and taking special precautions or treatments to help with his recovery? He wasn't coming into JAN out of game shape having missed camp and 2 months of games?

I think the comparison is pretty obvious. This isn't a new injury, it's surgery for the same injury and in this case it's been treated rather than just rested. Why did you expect his ability to get up to game shape or leg strength this year to be so different from his ability to do that last year?



See, statements like "he's been playing a lot lately" totally ignores that MOST PLAYERS play a lot after coming back from injury, at least in terms of games. Mike's minutes aren't all that high, and in fact they are much lower than last year.

Your whole opinion just has an air of no acknowledgment that anyone ever, including Mike, has come back from injury or surgery.

See, I'm not saying Mike hasn't come back from surgery, I'm talking about what that arc of playing output looks like following the recovery. Does it look like Mike's output this year, or does it look more like Mike last year, or Reggie, or Foster, or Amare for that matter.

Find me a guy who came back from an injury and wasn't still injured (ie, Grant Hill) that struggled so much to find his legs more than a month into playing games again, that actually played worse a month in than 2 weeks in and did so for 5-6 games straight (ie, not one bad night).

Now look at the arcs of guys that came back but weren't actually better or perhaps got reinjured. Which arc is closer to what Mike has followed this year.

I don't see a guy making slow progress with some bumps, I see a guy getting worse by the game.

Not only that, but I don't see him coming up short on shots so much as just missing them. I see sloppy passes, not weak ones. I see bad awareness, not the lack of agility to make the defensive play.

He looks either disinterested or distracted by pain IMO. If he was just getting his strength or cardio back he'd be looking a bit better by now, not worse.

I'm not comparing him to his career norm, I'm talking about from game to game this year. I'm not saying he should already be fully recovered, I'm saying he should look like he's on a path of recovery, not taking some real steps backward.

jhondog28
12-31-2009, 04:10 PM
Buck, I'm getting pretty frustrated with this bizarre need to explain away issues with things that don't even make sense.

Look at Dun's playing time and output last year. Explain to me how those circumstances were different. Was he not coming off no playing time while recovering from injury? Was he not, in fact, playing with an injury during those return games? Did he not play and shoot better than he has been the last few weeks this year?

The idea that it takes 3 weeks or more for an NBA player to get into enough shape to go better than 2-17 from the floor is ridiculous, and I can't believe that you genuinely believe it yourself.

Reggie's final year he returned early from an injury due to the brawl. His first two games he lit it up, then in his 2nd and 3rd week he slumped (5 games total) though he had a 6-12 and 6-13 in the middle. Then just 18 games after his first game back he went 10-15.

Foster also came back early from injury that year. His first 2 games were modest by his standards, around 30 mpg and 6 and 8 boards, shooting 4-5 and 4-6. Then he ripped off a stretch of games in the next 3 weeks for huge rebounds: 18, 11, 18, 18, 12, 16, 10, 5, 16, 10 and in all but 3 of those games he got more offensive boards than missed shots (not just piling up his stats) and one of those was 2 Oreb on a 9-12 shooting night.


Dun is now a full month out and looks worse than he did even 2 weeks in.

It took him till Jan to play last year, and a month after that he was playing 35 mpg and shooting 10-18, 6-18, 8-15, 7-15 for 47% in those games. Two games later he was done for the year.

So both he and other players get back up to game speed way too soon to be the explanation here. Something else is wrong. Either he's had it with JOB or the team or he's hurt again and doesn't want anyone to know.

Seth you know and I know that something else may be a foot here. Even when he was in Golden State he was not a bad shooter. He was inconsistent, but not a bad shooter. There is nothing in his entire NBA career that would suggest he is this bad a shooter. That is why Buck and myself and many others suggest this probably has to do with injury or not having his mind right. We come up with theories and suggestions because we know the guy can shoot and has never been this bad.

Speed
12-31-2009, 04:14 PM
I may just be making too much of body language and coupling it with Wells comments and his poor play.

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 04:19 PM
Well, I don't know what is wrong with Mike but until I know otherwise I will assume it is related in some way to his injury and his recovery from the injury and all that entails. I mean who knows maybe he's having problems at home, who really knows - but what I'm not going to do is question his integrity when we don't know what is going on.

vnzla81
12-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I may just be making too much of body language and coupling it with Wells comments and his poor play.

Not just body language, you should have listen to his interview on 1070 the fan two days ago when he said that is not neccesary to have a players meeting to resolve the issues and sounded disinterested.

Hicks
12-31-2009, 04:32 PM
Not just body language, you should have listen to his interview on 1070 the fan two days ago when he said that is not neccesary to have a players meeting to resolve the issues and sounded disinterested.

Thank you for reminding me about that as I should have made a post/thread about it when I heard it. That was another interesting comment. I'm not sure how to take it, really. I've always thought player meetings were a good thing, if not always effective.

BillS
12-31-2009, 04:44 PM
All I will say is those players being used as examples did not go essentially an entire year without being able to do any type of conditioning work, plus not really being in condition for another few months prior to the surgery. Since we are talking about conditioning, this is a relevant point.

Peck
12-31-2009, 04:51 PM
Thank you for reminding me about that as I should have made a post/thread about it when I heard it. That was another interesting comment. I'm not sure how to take it, really. I've always thought player meetings were a good thing, if not always effective.

Can you go deeper into this?? This is the first I have heard about this and I am very curious the context in which it was said.

You also agree that he sounded disinterested?

sportfireman
12-31-2009, 04:54 PM
i just hope obrien continues to use the younger guys........let the vets sit a bit. they arent producing wins anyways. smartest thing obrien has done all season, i hope it carries over to next game and the rest of the season.

imawhat
12-31-2009, 05:02 PM
Not just body language, you should have listen to his interview on 1070 the fan two days ago when he said that is not neccesary to have a players meeting to resolve the issues and sounded disinterested.

This is pretty interesting. In general Mike seems disinterested and aloof when he talks, but if true it wouldn't be the first time a player has seemed disinterested.

I always thought Danny Granger's answer in the "reasons to support the Pacers" video seemed off. I tried to post the video below, but it's messed up and doesn't show Danny's full answer. I'm probably looking into it too much, but he didn't appear to believe what he was saying and I would go as far as saying something was bothering him.

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Hicks
12-31-2009, 05:14 PM
Can you go deeper into this?? This is the first I have heard about this and I am very curious the context in which it was said.

You also agree that he sounded disinterested?

Mark Montieth asked him about this on 1070.

=====

Montieth: Hey, Mike. It's Mark Montieth.

Dunleavy: Hey, Mark. How are doing?

Montieth: Hey. I'm curious. Have the players gathered on this? The team's struggling so much right now. Has there been a players meeting? Have you done anything among the players to try to get this thing turned around?

Dunleavy: Uh, a lot of times when you have player meetings, nothing really comes of it. People get madder at each other, or, you know, they start things up with the coach and stuff like that. So in the NBA, generally, player meetings don't work. I don't really believe in those, but, um, you know, we know what we have to do. But on top of it, we have a lot of young guys, we have a lot of new guys. Um, right now there's only one guy I've played with before, and that's Troy. Uh, so we're all kind of just struggling to figure things out and play the way we want to play, but it's a resilient group and we'll stick together and, you know, we'll get it figured out.

Montieth: How's your knee? You've struggled offensively the last couple of games. Is the knee holding up okay, or has that become a problem?

Dunleavy: No, my knee's great. Um, my legs feel great. Everything's good. It's not, uh, there's nothing-- nothing wrong with me physically. I feel good, and, uh, I'm just trying to get in the flow here.
=====

This was on 12/29/09.

I don't feel like transcribing the rest, but he did say nothing but positive things about Jim and said he wasn't the problem. Of course, he also implied everyone liked Jim, so I have my doubts.

imawhat
12-31-2009, 05:18 PM
He also implied that nothing's wrong with him physically. Wow.


No, my knee's great. Um, my legs feel great. Everything's good. It's not, uh, there's nothing-- nothing wrong with me physically. I feel good, and, uh, I'm just trying to get in the flow here.

Thanks for erasing all the doubt, Mike. Your words are so compelling.

Dece
12-31-2009, 06:04 PM
Dunleavy is a career loser, so what he does or does not believe in (player meetings) doesn't really strike me as something that matters. So many years in the league, not a single playoff game. He should probably sit back and follow someone who has been a part of a winning culture instead.

Peck
12-31-2009, 06:13 PM
Dunleavy is a career loser, so what he does or does not believe in (player meetings) doesn't really strike me as something that matters. So many years in the league, not a single playoff game. He should probably sit back and follow someone who has been a part of a winning culture instead.

Harsh? Yes.

Hyperbole? Yes.

Truth? Yes, sadly

Hicks
12-31-2009, 06:15 PM
Bunch of losers at Duke at the start of this decade, I tell you.

Peck
12-31-2009, 06:16 PM
Bunch of losers at Duke at the start of this decade, I tell you.

Actually I thought about that but he did say career, so I assumed that he was talking about NBA only seeing as how a person in college is really a student athlete. Ok, I laughed myself while typing it. Student athlete...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

But the point is the same, he was talking pro career.

d_c
12-31-2009, 06:19 PM
Dunleavy is a career loser, so what he does or does not believe in (player meetings) doesn't really strike me as something that matters. So many years in the league, not a single playoff game. He should probably sit back and follow someone who has been a part of a winning culture instead.

FWIW, Dunleavy in GS from the very beginning kind of had the "I know how to play this game the right way so don't blame me, go talk to the other guys" type of attitude.

Pretty much was that way with the fans. So when the fans booed him for poor play, he responded by saying "These fans don't know basketball, so I don't respect them and I don't owe them anything."

That's why Dunleavy currently has that type of relationship with the GS fans: because he's had it from the moment he entered the league.

Hicks
12-31-2009, 06:20 PM
Actually I thought about that but he did say career, so I assumed that he was talking about NBA only seeing as how a person in college is really a student athlete. Ok, I laughed myself while typing it. Student athlete...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

But the point is the same, he was talking pro career.

Agreed, but I think it bears mentioning when this train of thought comes out.

There's also a difference between being on a losing team every year, and being the primary reason WHY it's a losing team.

If Derek Fisher is your best player, is it really Fisher's fault for all the losing?

Now, the point stands that until he's experienced winning in the NBA, his opinion on what it takes means little in comparison to someone that has experienced winning.

If that's all that was trying to be said, I agree with that.

But it seems at times that when Dunleavy gets the "loser" label attached, there seems to also be a finger being pointed as if those teams would have been winners if not for what Mike did.

d_c
12-31-2009, 06:34 PM
But it seems at times that when Dunleavy gets the "loser" label attached, there seems to also be a finger being pointed as if those teams would have been winners if not for what Mike did.

I think it's a situation about expectations, and a lot of that was set up by Mike himself.

He was the #3 overall pick. He struggled early on in GS. He played really, really poorly. And when he did, he would say of himself that "The cream always rises to the top."

He would proclaim himself as the guy who knew how to play the game the right way, that these other dudes around him didn't know what they were doing. That the fans didn't know what they were booing.

Is it fair to blame Dunleavy for everything for the losing that's taken place where he's played at? No. But that's the NBA. That's pro sports. He put himself in the spotlight. If you come out high profile, speak of yourself as such but don't get the results, the blame will find you.

Hicks
12-31-2009, 06:39 PM
I think it's a situation about expectations, and a lot of that was set up by Mike himself.

He was the #3 overall pick. He struggled early on in GS. He played really, really poorly. And when he did, he would say of himself that "The cream always rises to the top."

He would proclaim himself as the guy who knew how to play the game the right way, that these other dudes around him didn't know what they were doing. That the fans didn't know what they were booing.

Is it fair to blame Dunleavy for everything for the losing that's taken place where he's played at? No. But that's the NBA. That's pro sports. He put himself in the spotlight. If you come out high profile, speak of yourself as such but don't get the results, the blame will find you.

He didn't choose where he was selected or by whom. Struggling early is typical of a rookie. The first thing I would 100% blame him for is his mouth.

As for knowing how to play the right way, he's not wrong. As for his teammates not knowing what they were doing, was he wrong?

Sounds like the only completely legit complaint is his mouth.

PaceBalls
12-31-2009, 06:45 PM
He didn't choose where he was selected or by whom. Struggling early is typical of a rookie. The first thing I would 100% blame him for is his mouth.

As for knowing how to play the right way, he's not wrong. As for his teammates not knowing what they were doing, was he wrong?

Sounds like the only completely legit complaint is his mouth.

Let's look at who his teammates were in GS.. This is 2004 roster.
Troy Murphy of course, Brian Cardinal, Calbert Cheaney, Erik Dampier, Adonal Foyle, Avery Johnson, Jason Richardson, Mickael Pietrus, Cliff Robinson, Nick Van Exel to name a few.

Most of these guys are all solid smart players. Quite the Indiana connection too.

d_c
12-31-2009, 06:59 PM
He didn't choose where he was selected or by whom. Struggling early is typical of a rookie. The first thing I would 100% blame him for is his mouth.

As for knowing how to play the right way, he's not wrong. As for his teammates not knowing what they were doing, was he wrong?

Sounds like the only completely legit complaint is his mouth.

For Dunleavy, the biggest problem people have with him is the way he's reacted to the situations he's been dealt with.

When Nellie was with Dallas and took Dirk with a lottery pick, everyone thought he was crazy. Thought it was just another Nellie sideshow experiment. And he played poorly his first year. And the team lost a ton of games. And he got booed.

Same thing happened when Nellie traded an unprotected pick for Steve Nash when he was still a backup PG in Phoenix. He got booed after playing poorly his first year in Dallas.

Those were two eventual MVPs who got booed. Yet in their tough years, neither of those guys ever blamed anyone around them for anything. Never once blamed the fans or coaches. Never complained about the situation they got put in. They just said "Hey, I'm just not very good right now. I need to find ways to get better." And they did.

Contrast this with the kind of prickly attitude Dunleavy's had from Day 1 since entering the league.

Anthem
12-31-2009, 08:18 PM
All I will say is those players being used as examples did not go essentially an entire year without being able to do any type of conditioning work, plus not really being in condition for another few months prior to the surgery. Since we are talking about conditioning, this is a relevant point.
But Seth's counter is a worthwhile question at the very least.

If the problem is conditioning, wouldn't you expect Dun to slowly be getting better? Because it really looks like he's getting worse.

RandyWrinkles
12-31-2009, 08:37 PM
Thank you for reminding me about that as I should have made a post/thread about it when I heard it. That was another interesting comment. I'm not sure how to take it, really. I've always thought player meetings were a good thing, if not always effective.

Doc Rivers thinks differently:

"“I hate player meetings,” he said. “The right things are never said. I’ve always believed that either guys blow smoke up each other’s asses, or they go the completely opposite way and say (bleep) they can’t repair."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-rondoceltics102209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

The article talks about how last year Rondo setup a team meeting and it got bad with the younger players arguing with the vets. The Pacers meeting could end up similar but I would take my chances arguing with Murphy over KG any day.

joew8302
12-31-2009, 09:18 PM
Dunleavy is a career loser, so what he does or does not believe in (player meetings) doesn't really strike me as something that matters. So many years in the league, not a single playoff game. He should probably sit back and follow someone who has been a part of a winning culture instead.

A Jamaal Tinsley fan accusing another player of being a loser. Rich.

sportfireman
12-31-2009, 09:23 PM
A Jamaal Tinsley fan accusing another player of being a loser. Rich.

then i guess he should know how to spot them.:)

jhondog28
12-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Ok I have debated this with DC since I started coming on here so this argument has seen many threads and posts, but it was a bad relationship to begin with. First off GS had Antwan Jamison who was playing the three. The whole reason they brought Dun is was to move Jamison to the 4 which they didnt do. The they lost Arenas to Washington. Then they expected Dun to come in and revive a franchise that hadnt gotten it together in many years. Then Musselman came in and publicly blasted Dunleavy. So I am sure that sat well with Dun. The in came Montgomery a college coach who loved mike but played him like a college player. Tried to use him as a perimeter 3 point shooter instead of a motion player. Then Mullin came in after Dun got a huge contract after having a very good end to the previous season and again put Dun in a position to not succeed. He was frustrated and pissed that he was not put in a position to succeed. Then everytime he touched the ball he was booed by his home fans. **** even when he made free throws he was booed. Sorry Dirk didnt go through that nor did he get the press saying he did like Dun did. I think being in Oakland with a franchise that was hungry and fickle fans didnt help.

d_c
12-31-2009, 10:13 PM
Ok I have debated this with DC since I started coming on here so this argument has seen many threads and posts, but it was a bad relationship to begin with. First off GS had Antwan Jamison who was playing the three. The whole reason they brought Dun is was to move Jamison to the 4 which they didnt do. The they lost Arenas to Washington. Then they expected Dun to come in and revive a franchise that hadnt gotten it together in many years. Then Musselman came in and publicly blasted Dunleavy. So I am sure that sat well with Dun. The in came Montgomery a college coach who loved mike but played him like a college player. Tried to use him as a perimeter 3 point shooter instead of a motion player. Then Mullin came in after Dun got a huge contract after having a very good end to the previous season and again put Dun in a position to not succeed. He was frustrated and pissed that he was not put in a position to succeed. Then everytime he touched the ball he was booed by his home fans. **** even when he made free throws he was booed. Sorry Dirk didnt go through that nor did he get the press saying he did like Dun did. I think being in Oakland with a franchise that was hungry and fickle fans didnt help.

Mullin didn't come in after Dun got a huge contract. Mullin was already involved with the Warriors organization when Dunleavy was drafted and officially took over 2 years later. It was Mullin who catered to Dunleavy and got rid of Musselman in large part because he did not get along with Dunleavy. He gave Dunleavy an extension before his contract year so he wouldn't have to worry about it. I would say Dunleavy was set up pretty nicely at that point. He got his contract and the team got rid of the coach he didn't get along with.

As far as fickle fans, go ask Jason Richardson and Antawn Jamison what they think of GS fans. Both guys said they were the best fans they ever played in front of. And they said that as recently as THIS SEASON, which is now long after they were traded away.

Bottom line: The guys who end up succeeding in this league are the ones who don't need to have excuses made up for them. Whatever success or failure Dunleavy's had so far in the league has been all on him.

As a side note: Dunleavy has now had 5 coaches since he's been in the league. The guy who he has had by far the most success for has been Jim O'Brien, the guy who everyone now wants to throw off a bridge. The guy who everyone thinks doesn't have a clue. Either O'brien is better than people give him credit for or Dunleavy has never had a good coach in the league (even though he's been coached by two Coach of the Year winners).

Whatever the case, I can't name a single player in the history of the NBA to have spent 5+ years in the league and was said to have underachieved because he never had a good coach. Nobody has ever had that excuse made for him.

NapTonius Monk
12-31-2009, 10:22 PM
All I will say is those players being used as examples did not go essentially an entire year without being able to do any type of conditioning work, plus not really being in condition for another few months prior to the surgery. Since we are talking about conditioning, this is a relevant point.

Wasn't it said that there was really no precedent for the procedure Dunleavy had? So how do we know that this isn't the reasonable expectation of what he was capable of at this point in his comeback. It's tough to read too much into it either way.

BlueNGold
12-31-2009, 10:36 PM
Mullin didn't come in after Dun got a huge contract. Mullin was already involved with the Warriors organization when Dunleavy was drafted and officially took over 2 years later. It was Mullin who catered to Dunleavy and got rid of Musselman in large part because he did not get along with Dunleavy. He gave Dunleavy an extension before his contract year so he wouldn't have to worry about it. I would say Dunleavy was set up pretty nicely at that point. He got his contract and the team got rid of the coach he didn't get along with.

As far as fickle fans, go ask Jason Richardson and Antawn Jamison what they think of GS fans. Both guys said they were the best fans they ever played in front of. And they said that as recently as THIS SEASON, which is now long after they were traded away.

Bottom line: The guys who end up succeeding in this league are the ones who don't need to have excuses made up for them. Whatever success or failure Dunleavy's had so far in the league has been all on him.

As a side note: Dunleavy has now had 5 coaches since he's been in the league. The guy who he has had by far the most success for has been Jim O'Brien, the guy who everyone now wants to throw off a bridge. The guy who everyone thinks doesn't have a clue. Either O'brien is better than people give him credit for or Dunleavy has never had a good coach in the league (even though he's been coached by two Coach of the Year winners).

Whatever the case, I can't name a single player in the history of the NBA to have spent 5+ years in the league and was said to have underachieved because he never had a good coach. Nobody has ever had that excuse made for him.

Dunleavy was entering his prime and placed in an offense that inflated his numbers. I guess JOb's offense had something to do with that. But it was his experience level and the change of scenery...combined with the offense and the opportunity that led to it.

cinotimz
12-31-2009, 10:48 PM
Notice Dunleavy mentioned Murphy being the only guy he has played with. Now while his play last year was quite limited, thats not really exactly the truth.

Wouldnt be surprised that hes feeling a little foul because he either has been told he might be traded, or even more likely he knows theres a decent chance troy-his buddy-could be traded.

McKeyFan
12-31-2009, 11:22 PM
You don't think he's playing crappy to keep a trade from happening?

Dece
01-01-2010, 04:05 AM
A Jamaal Tinsley fan accusing another player of being a loser. Rich.



Ad hominem, stay classy.

Jamaal started for a 61 win team, get back to me when Dun makes the playoffs.

nerveghost
01-01-2010, 11:23 AM
ok, i'll admit it: i have absolutely no idea what is going on with this team.

Anthem
01-01-2010, 12:49 PM
Notice Dunleavy mentioned Murphy being the only guy he has played with. Now while his play last year was quite limited, thats not really exactly the truth.
Yeah, I started to go down this road and then decided against. Strictly speaking it's not true, but he has had relatively few minutes. Go through the top 10 guys in the rotation this week and how much time on the court has Dun spent with them? Not much.

Still feels like a weird excuse, but I'm not going to beat him too hard for it.

Thesterovic
01-01-2010, 12:56 PM
Hold on, I always viewed Mike as a real great person and teammate, and took alot of pride in his work. But you guys are saying that he could care less about the fans, thinks of himself higher than his teammates, and is selfish with his decision making. Is this why he was never succesful as a basketball player?

I'm genuinely confused and I need more insight on your guys' opinion. Because he's obviously not "Uh, fine".

Bball
01-01-2010, 01:03 PM
You don't think he's playing crappy to keep a trade from happening?


OK... I'll play along. For that to be true why would he want to stay here (rather than accept a trade (it's not like we're going to be a contender any time soon or have a coach expected to turn this around at this point))? He'll get the same money anywhere else. His soon to be expiring contract will need to be renegotiated and wouldn't that be better done from a position of strength? Has their been any rumors of a trading partner somewhere that he would not want to go? And couldn't he pull a JO if that was the case and just sit himself (and kill trade value) rather than playing thru the rehab period (and playing poorly or half-heartedly)?

jhondog28
01-01-2010, 01:53 PM
Hold on, I always viewed Mike as a real great person and teammate, and took alot of pride in his work. But you guys are saying that he could care less about the fans, thinks of himself higher than his teammates, and is selfish with his decision making. Is this why he was never succesful as a basketball player?

I'm genuinely confused and I need more insight on your guys' opinion. Because he's obviously not "Uh, fine".

OK I am pretty biased when it comes to Mike mainly because I am family, so let me say this. I know when someone has an inflated ego and has grown up with a silver spoon in their mouth. Mike is not one of those. Mike is cocky but most athletes have to have a certain degree to be successful. If you are a pro athlete and do not have faith in your abilities then it comes off as being not confident and press will prey on that. If you come off as over confident then the press will prey on that angle and fans will come off as oh man does he think he is the **** or what? GS fans in general blamed Dun for everything. **** they still talk about him to this day on message boards. He was not a criminal. He did not harm while he was there. All he was was a top 3 draft pick, who was dubbed the next Larry Bird, who didnt improve an already bad team, who got a large contract by no fault of his own, and if you look at his overall number while in GS they were average. They were not bad. But if you are looking for me to tell you he is a bad person and doesn't give rats *** about basketball and blames everyone else but himself you are full of ****. He is a great guy who has worked hard to get where he is at. He is active in the community, cares about winning, and has great people around him who will vouch for his character. Dont believe me ask Shane Battier one of the most character guys in the league.

Naptown_Seth
01-01-2010, 02:08 PM
All I will say is those players being used as examples did not go essentially an entire year without being able to do any type of conditioning work, plus not really being in condition for another few months prior to the surgery. Since we are talking about conditioning, this is a relevant point.Bill, buy a calender already. I don't mind debate or counter points, but I'm tired or intelligent, seemingly rational people that I know just saying things that are blatantly wrong.

When was Mike playing last season, what dates? When did Mike get surgery, what date? When did Mike start practicing this season, what dates? Was 2009 longer than 365 days and no one told me?

How long was Mike out before last season resting his injury before his return?


I'm not saying a recovery from surgery is the same as when you just have to stop for awhile. But that doesn't help the case here because the REASON FOR THE SURGERY was Mike was playing hurt after his return last year.

So he's out of game shape and coming off an injury that's not even actually healed. And that guy is supposed to be better than the one that's had the problem structurally addressed and is now healthy other than being weak and out of game shape?

And that weak/out of shape player looks worse now than 2 weeks ago.

Explain to me the process of getting into game shape, do you slowly improve or get worse? I'm not talking about a time table to be back to his best, I'm talking about the trajectory of his output, shouldn't he be showing signs of getting more in shape and stronger?


Good lord, this point isn't complex at all. I've had knee surgery, had it scoped last year. I was able to do more 2 months after than 1 month after. I didn't suddenly need crutches 3 months in.

Now on the other hand, if SOMETHING IS INJURED AGAIN, then you get a guy going backward.


I'm not saying Mike doesn't care, though I can wonder. I'm saying I assume he does care and is hiding an injury or something nagging because frankly he doesn't want to give it up.

But, I can see how a decent person can get tired of a bad job and not find the heart to put as much into it. Or maybe is actively working to get the old boss moved out because he's miserable to work for.

You don't have to be evil to want to improve your work situation.

d_c
01-01-2010, 02:27 PM
Hold on, I always viewed Mike as a real great person and teammate, and took alot of pride in his work. But you guys are saying that he could care less about the fans, thinks of himself higher than his teammates, and is selfish with his decision making. Is this why he was never succesful as a basketball player?

I'm genuinely confused and I need more insight on your guys' opinion. Because he's obviously not "Uh, fine".

Dunleavy is on record as saying he doesn't respect the GS fans. That's what he said in his interview after his first game back in GS. He was asked what he thought about the booing and his word for word response was


“I wouldn’t want it any other way,” he said. “I couldn’t care less. It’s hard to pay attention and care about something somebody says when you have no respect for them. They can do whatever they want.”Nobody has said he is selfish in his decision making. Nobody has said he thinks of himself as higher than his teammates, but he often does imply in his quotes that he thinks he plays the game the right way and his teammates don't.

Dunleavy hasn't had an unsuccessful career. Perhaps he's fell short of the expectations (farily or unfairly) created for him, but he's had a couple good years in the league. If he is healthy by the time his contract ends, he'll have interest from multiple teams around the league.

Hicks
01-01-2010, 02:29 PM
You don't think he might have been referring just to the fans that boo him?

BlueNGold
01-01-2010, 02:36 PM
he often does imply in his quotes that he thinks he plays the game the right way and his teammates don't.


So, it's his lack of living up to expectations along with a dash of arrogance. Is that all there is for the booing he gets? I do believe half the league fits that description.

If so, I don't have much respect for GS fans either. It's not like he has kept law enforcement busy for years like a few former Pacers....who were also arrogant and never lived up to expectations.

In any event, the fans might want to blame their GM for picking Dunleavy that high.

d_c
01-01-2010, 02:42 PM
You don't think he might have been referring just to the fans that boo him?

If that's the case, he'd still be referring to all the GS fans, lol. He got it pretty badly in that first game back. Seriously, I don't think he's referring to any group of fans. Dunleavy just didn't enjoy his time in GS. Now that could be said for a number of players who have played for the Warriors, but usually it's because they just didn't enjoy playing for a losing team (who would?). But no ex-player other than Dunleavy has ever said he didn't enjoy playing in front of the fans.

All good clean fun between Dunleavy and the fans, BTW. Nothing malicious. The fans had fun heckling him and he had a pretty good game, no doubt wanting to stick it to them. It was good stuff.

d_c
01-01-2010, 02:47 PM
So, it's his lack of living up to expectations along with a dash of arrogance. Is that all there is for the booing he gets? I do believe half the league fits that description.

If so, I don't have much respect for GS fans either. It's not like he has kept law enforcement busy for years like a few former Pacers....who were also arrogant and never lived up to expectations.

In any event, the fans might want to blame their GM for picking Dunleavy that high.

Again, most people just didn't appreciate the way he reacted to the adversity he faced. Let's just say he didn't react the same way to a rough start and a few boos from the crowd the same way Dirk and Nash reacted to it.

And most fans do blame the GM for picking him that high. They thought he (Garry St. Jean) was completely unfit for the job.

I'll say it again: The relationship between Dunleavy and the GS fans is a two way straight, as you can see from what Dunleavy said of Warrior fans. I can't name any other player in the league who thinks that way of any NBA fanbase.

And I'll say it again: The tiff between Dunleavy and the GS fans is also good, clean fun. It's a completely mutual feeling between him and the fans.

Hicks
01-01-2010, 03:01 PM
When did he first get booed, and why?

pwee31
01-01-2010, 03:08 PM
O'Brien sent a message to more then Dunleavy. I mean Ford only played 8 minutes.

I think Dunleavy's return spoiled a lot of people, he came back and was cutting nicely for easy buckets. Coming off screens and knocking down jump shots, he didn't seem miss much, and folks couldn't wait for his minutes to increase so he could be on the floor more.

Now he appears to have hit a bump in the road, a bump in the road that I expected earlier out the gate, but expected nonetheless.

I don't know if some of you have never had injuries, but there's a lot of things involved, including conditioning, and a lot of mental things as well. Not to mention I'm sure teams are trying to stop him now, a lot more then when he first returned.

He'll come out of this funk, just be patient.

Wow I hate losing as much of the next fan, but are we really bashing Mike Dunleavy's character?

d_c
01-01-2010, 03:16 PM
When did he first get booed, and why?

Can't remember exactly. It was probably a quarter of the way through the season. Amare was absolutely tearing it up. Dunleavy was worse than you could possibly imagine. Airballing wide open shots. Couldn't hit the broadside of the barn. Couldn't throw it in the ocean. Complete deer in the headlights look. He seriously looked a high school freshman out there.

It got bad. Fans said "THIS is what we got?" It rolled off to a really bad start and just got worse from there on out. Dunleavy for his part didn't look like he really wanted to be there from the very start. Looked like he wanted to be back at Duke. Didn't seem to enjoy playing the game or his coach (Eric Musselman).

Recall that he initially wasn't going to come out for the draft. Then the Warriors (once they got the #3 pick) flew Jamison and their GM out to Duke to convince him to come out. He kind of reluctantly agreed to come out after that meeting. Not to far into the season, he sort of looked like he regretted that decision and he probably still regrets it to this day. It was just a bad situation that good off on the wrong foot and just go progressively worse.

Anthem
01-01-2010, 03:27 PM
Heh. I'm trying to think of a response from Mike after his first game in GS that would satisfy you, dc.

So, Mike, what did you think about the GS fans booing you so much tonight?

You know, Dan, it really hurt. I tried so hard for the Golden State Warriors, and we just couldn't make it work. I've made my peace with the organization, but it's still hard hearing that from the fans. All I ever wanted was for them to love me. I'm going to go home and cry in my pillow. Maybe someday they'll have the heart to forgive me.

I'm sure he probably said some stuff when he was there, but that quote bothers me exactly none.

joew8302
01-01-2010, 04:12 PM
Ad hominem, stay classy.

Jamaal started for a 61 win team, get back to me when Dun makes the playoffs.

Please. Dun has a ring and a Final 4 MVP. Dunleavy is a quality guy if nothing else. Jamaal is a criminal and a loser in the game of life.

90'sNBARocked
01-01-2010, 04:23 PM
Please. Dun has a ring and a Final 4 MVP. Dunleavy is a quality guy if nothing else. Jamaal is a criminal and a loser in the game of life.

Not to pick on you,

But it is amazing to me how many people judge another's life

Me I have made enough mistakes to not judge someone

There are some people on here that im sure "claim to be Christian" yet are some of the most judgmental people I have ever heard from.

Jammal is a thug, criminal, loser, ruined his life?

Well I will counter with, he has done some positive things in the community , I will probably come no where near the money he has sen in my lifetime, he has given back to his college, lost his mother, never knew his father, escaped some pretty mean Brooklyn streets to move on

Again not making it personal but I think for all those that rip someone to shreds without knowing the person intimately...

look in the mirror first, judge not least you be judged.


Thats all Im saying, I have too much to work on in my own life to worry about or judge another person

joew8302
01-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Not to pick on you,

But it is amazing to me how many people judge another's life

Me I have made enough mistakes to not judge someone

There are some people on here that im sure "claim to be Christian" yet are some of the most judgmental people I have ever heard from.

Jammal is a thug, criminal, loser, ruined his life?

Well I will counter with, he has done some positive things in the community , I will probably come no where near the money he has sen in my lifetime, he has given back to his college, lost his mother, never knew his father, escaped some pretty mean Brooklyn streets to move on

Again not making it personal but I think for all those that rip someone to shreds without knowing the person intimately...

look in the mirror first, judge not least you be judged.


Thats all Im saying, I have too much to work on in my own life to worry about or judge another person

Please, my closet is clean. I have a good job, pay my own taxes and am not a criminal. And since when is calling a loser and a criminal being judgmental when the person involved is a loser and a criminal? Seems to be a fact.

d_c
01-01-2010, 04:38 PM
Heh. I'm trying to think of a response from Mike after his first game in GS that would satisfy you, dc.

So, Mike, what did you think about the GS fans booing you so much tonight?


I'm sure he probably said some stuff when he was there, but that quote bothers me exactly none.

It doesn't bother GS fans either, as I said before. It was a mutual feeling between Dunleavy and the fans. He didn't like us. We didn't like him. I think most pros would've just let it roll off and said "whatever" while Dunleavy obviously let out some pent up frustration. That's perfectly OK as the crowd was doing the same thing to him. Again, it's a two way street.

I think it was an unfortunate situation that just got off on the wrong foot. Fans were hard on him in the beginning, and probably unfairly so. Mike for his part simply didn't do well in his own personal PR department to start with. If he had the diplomacy/PR skills of let's say, Antawn Jamison (who also got off to a poor start in GS and had to be compared to Vince Carter's hot start), he probably would've been better liked. Jamison receives an extremely warm applause every single time he comes back to Oakland.

And let me say this again: GS fans are hardly the first ones to boo one of their own players (Dunleavy being the only guy they booed while playing for them, really). They didn't invent this. Reading some of the posts on this board regarding this subject, you would think they did.

I'm pretty sure fans in NY, Chicago, LA, Detroit, Philly, Dallas and Boston have been pretty hard on their hometown players, both in basketball and in other sports. Most would say they are way harder on their own players than any fans in the Bay Area, who the media often criticizes for going too soft on teams that perform poorly.

Hicks
01-01-2010, 04:40 PM
Can't remember exactly. It was probably a quarter of the way through the season. Amare was absolutely tearing it up. Dunleavy was worse than you could possibly imagine. Airballing wide open shots. Couldn't hit the broadside of the barn. Couldn't throw it in the ocean. Complete deer in the headlights look. He seriously looked a high school freshman out there.

It got bad. Fans said "THIS is what we got?" It rolled off to a really bad start and just got worse from there on out. Dunleavy for his part didn't look like he really wanted to be there from the very start. Looked like he wanted to be back at Duke. Didn't seem to enjoy playing the game or his coach (Eric Musselman).

Recall that he initially wasn't going to come out for the draft. Then the Warriors (once they got the #3 pick) flew Jamison and their GM out to Duke to convince him to come out. He kind of reluctantly agreed to come out after that meeting. Not to far into the season, he sort of looked like he regretted that decision and he probably still regrets it to this day. It was just a bad situation that good off on the wrong foot and just go progressively worse.

Well, if this all started with Mike playing bad and that launched the boo birds, I can't see Mike as the villain here. I know you say it's all in good fun, but that's not a phrase I would ever use when both sides genuinely don't like one another.

It sounds like after Mike was rough early, the fans turned on him, so he decided "Eff Them." I can't blame him for that.

90'sNBARocked
01-01-2010, 04:42 PM
Please, my closet is clean. I have a good job, pay my own taxes and am not a criminal. And since when is calling a loser and a criminal being judgmental when the person involved is a loser and a criminal? Seems to be a fact.

Joe

I said the post was not ment to pick on you, sorry if you felt offended

as far as "my closet was clean"

sorry brother but Jesus was the only perfect man, in my book

again all drop it cause I don't want to , and shouldn't go there

Did you really say "since when is calling a person a loser judgmental"

wow

90'sNBARocked
01-01-2010, 04:44 PM
Well, if this all started with Mike playing bad and that launched the boo birds, I can't see Mike as the villain here. I know you say it's all in good fun, but that's not a phrase I would ever use when both sides genuinely don't like one another.

It sounds like after Mike was rough early, the fans turned on him, so he decided "Eff Them." I can't blame him for that.

Mike might be a good guy and all, but I have a hard time believing he didn't have a small sense of entitlement when he stepped in the league

I am saying this with no facts to back it up, but usually coach's sons have a very unreal upbringing and Dun was always the man and couldn't deal with the boos or negativity at first

I believe he has since matured

d_c
01-01-2010, 04:48 PM
Well, if this all started with Mike playing bad and that launched the boo birds, I can't see Mike as the villain here. I know you say it's all in good fun, but that's not a phrase I would ever use when both sides genuinely don't like one another.

It sounds like after Mike was rough early, the fans turned on him, so he decided "Eff Them." I can't blame him for that.

FWIW, nobody in the Bay Area refers to Mike as a villain. That would be reserved for Latrelll Sprewell. Mike's just a guy who people found very hard to root for.

For Mike's part, he just didn't seem like he wanted to be there and regretted his decision to come out. Guys like Jamison and JRich faced some adversity and struggles early on in GS too, but they battled. They fought. They said "I'm going to get better. I'm going to fight through this." Showed grit and and perhaps more than anything, they showed that they WANTED TO BE THERE to try to turn the situation around. Mike didn't show any of this. Who knows. Maybe he felt a similar way inside, but if he did he never showed it. He looked like a guy who wanted to go back to college.

The boos came down on Nash and Nowitzki when they started out too in Dallas. Didn't seem to discourage them. I don't deny that Dunleavy was handed a tough situation to start a career, but a lot of players have been and they handled the situation better.

And it is all good clean fun (I'm referring to now when Dunleavy comes to Oakland for a visit). Fans boo him and try to get under his skin and he tries to play well to stick it right back at them. That's often what sports is about between a home crowd and a visiting player and it's a good thing so long as you don't have players' charging into the stands or fans throwing stuff, etc.

HOOPFANATIC
01-01-2010, 05:05 PM
I think the true test will be how Mike handles playing less minutes, or possibly coming off of the bench to give the younger players a chance. He is almost 30 years old, and I do not think this team or this coach is going to be able to tailor fit his game.

I think he will do just fine. He did allright in his first few games back trying to give an offensive spark off of the bench, it wasn't until Danny went down and everybody turned to him tio pick up the slack that he had trouble.

joew8302
01-01-2010, 05:23 PM
Joe

I said the post was not ment to pick on you, sorry if you felt offended

as far as "my closet was clean"

sorry brother but Jesus was the only perfect man, in my book

again all drop it cause I don't want to , and shouldn't go there

Did you really say "since when is calling a person a loser judgmental"

wow

I am not going to get in your way of defending scum anymore. Go right ahead.

PaceBalls
01-01-2010, 08:19 PM
I am not going to get in your way of defending scum anymore. Go right ahead.

Isn't that a bit over the top? Everyone makes mistakes. But I suppose, since you are perfect, you can look upon mankind and decide who is scum. =/

joew8302
01-01-2010, 08:37 PM
Isn't that a bit over the top? Everyone makes mistakes. But I suppose, since you are perfect, you can look upon mankind and decide who is scum. =/

Great, more Tinsley apologists. Sorry, I am not like more people in this country willing to just hand people second chances (or 3 or 4). The guy has proved over and over he doesn't get it and probably never will. He is certainly not someone I would ever want my kid to even be around as he is a terrible role model. If you people want to not criticize a felon like this, go right ahead, defend him all you want.


And yes, I realize I am not Jesus, and not perfect. I also realize I am not a felon, and I have not done nearly the stupid things in my life that Tinsley has. Maybe if more people held him accountable for his actions instead of defending him with the stupid "hey, everyone makes mistakes" line when he has done multiple incredibly dumb things there would be more of a negative stigma attached to this. I love how some of you want to make people calling a felon nasty names the criminal and the criminal the victim in these cases.