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View Full Version : Quick thoughts about the loss to the Grizz.



Peck
12-31-2009, 03:48 AM
This will probably be fairly brief tonight.

I hate losing, there are no moral victories and at the end of the day we are now on an 8 game losing streak.

Now having said that I want to say that I am fairly satisfied with the game. I am pretty happy with both the coaching and the effort from the players tonight.

Let's be honest here 4 games in 5 nights is hard on a healthy club but when you add injury and illness to the mix it is no wonder that we lost.

However this was not a tank job and even though we never really were in it, we never really got put out of it either till very late in the game and from a fans point of view that is about all I can ask when we are both short staffed and honestly missing our best player.

It's not an excuse btw; it just is an honest assessment of what occurred.

I am very happy that JOB took the steps tonight to limit the time on the court by certain players. If for no other reason we got to take a look at some of the younger guys just to see what they can do.

Let's be honest with ourselves here for a min. None of the young fella's are going to break out into 1st team all-stars but we need to know if going forward next season if they can contribute. I know practice is one way for coach's to know this but there is nothing like real game experience and not in garbage time to see what you can do.

A.J. Price is very interesting to me. Like I say all of the time I do not watch college ball so I had no idea who he was or what he did until he came here and frankly to begin with I read more about his Police blotter than scouting reports.

But there is something there. This kid does not play like a low second round draft pick, he plays like he belongs and he is not bashful or shy about shooting the ball or leading a play.

In other words for lack of a better term he has some swagger to him. Not in a bad cocky way but in a "I'm confident and you aren't going to get in my way" kind of way.

I don't know if he is going to turn out to be something or not but right now I will say that it would not surprise me one bit to think that he might actually be a starting caliber point guard. If that is the case, then jackpot for Bird.

BTW, I'm not saying he will be I am just saying with what I have seen I wouldn't be surprised.

He has already made Travis Diener obsolete.

Roy Hibbert just once again proved that given the ability to work with a mobile athletic power forward that he can be a force. His defense still is rough but notice how he did not look as bad tonight? Double double off of the bench, which btw Bird really should not let happen, I know you don't want to step on a coach's toes and all but in this case he needs to be told Roy needs to play. Roy does not need to play for future development, although that is also a side benefit; he needs to play because he is our best center right now.

Josh McRoberts ultimately had a very good game as well. He had a few min. in the first half where I was starting to worry that he was going to pretend to be Brandon Rush and hide in the bushes. But by the end of the 2nd quarter he started to work up a sweat.

Believe me I was relieved that he had a good, but not great game. The reason I say that is because a good middle of the road game makes it so that everyone can have their pound of flesh but nobody will be 100% correct.

Nobody can claim that Josh should be bumped up to starter and nobody can just blow off the Chicago game as a fluke

I think for those of us who want Josh to do well we can look at this and say "there is something there worth looking further at".

My boy Seth has been jocking McBob up for me so I will let him do the honors again tonight but I do want to add one thing to the discussion about him.

This guy really is one hell of a passer for a forward. I'm not talking about just good awareness and getting to his man. I am talking about crisp hard passes that hit his man in scoring positions. Hell Mark Jackson would have been proud of a couple of his passes.

One last thing before I move on and yes I know once again I am beating the Troy and Jeff dead horse again but I have to say it.

This season is lost, at least in the aspect of being playoff contenders. So with that in mind it is time to see both of them a little less and Josh and Solomon a little more. We need to go forward knowing if there is anything there at all.

I was very concerned about Josh this summer because when I saw him in the pre-season he did not look like his offense had progressed at all. However the past two games have given me a glimmer of hope.

But let's see how he does once team scout him a little more. That is if he continues to get playing time, we'll see.

Luther Head, how this guy got DNP-CD's to begin the season with is beyond me. How he could not get anything but a partially guaranteed contract in the NBA is also a mystery to me. Look I realize that he is going to be a journeyman player for his career unless he hooks in the right place. But right now this guy is our best shooting guard, that actually says more about our club than it does him but still you have to give him some credit.

I don't want to look at to many negatives tonight but there is something really wrong with Dunleavy. He doesn't have his legs for sure, so why then do we continue to start him when we are having trouble getting big deficits to begin the game you might ask? Well I don't know is the answer I will give you.

But right now I am beginning to think there is something else wrong as well. I was more than willing to write it all off to conditioning but right now I'm not sure that is all of it. It could be the knee is acting up or it could be he hit a mental wall as well as a physical one or it could be something else. It would not offend me if we told Mike to take a couple of games off to see if maybe he could rest and get some energy back because I still believe that this is most of his issue.

BTW, it is obvious from watching the post game show that Mike Connelly grew up a Pacer fan. Said he loved playing at home here and glad to play well in front of family and friends but he was sorry it had to be against the Pacers. The funny thing is from the way he said that I actually believe him.

Nice to see Rip Van Rush awaken from his 20 game nap and join us for a ball game. Hell he even had a couple of hustle plays that saved the ball to us, one of which lead to an easy basket. I figure we should be in for another game like this sometime in March from him.

Also I know that there are a lot of people who do not like Zach Randolph and I have heard that he is NOT a nice person from people who knew him up north. But it is kind of nice to see him start to actually get his career together and be a part of a team and not just some troubled gun for hire.

As to Jamaal. I'm over it, I never really held Jamaal to the contempt that I did J.O. or Ron. Sure I turned on him about 3 years into him being here but it had to do with him missing so many games. Then as his career went on here he added the off court stuff and then he started to play bad.

But I do remember when he was a rookie and I thought he was great. So overall I guess I just don't care. I'm glad to see he has made a home for himself.

2009 will go down as one of the worse years in Pacers history, not the worst but certainly one of them. I know we won't start 2010 off well but let's hope by the time we get to the latter part of the 10 we will start to see light at the end of the tunnel.

Psycho T
12-31-2009, 05:08 AM
Even in his college days McRoberts was looked at as a PG stuck in a big mans body. I dont know much about his game so I am not going to pretend I do and copy / paste stuff from somewhere but if he can make jumpers and slash to the basket he could be a very nice point forward.

D-BONE
12-31-2009, 06:55 AM
I don't really care if Hibbert starts or not. More importantly he needs to get around the 30 minute mark he hit last night.

TJ and Dun to the bench ASAP, please. The former permanently for all I care and the latter at least until whatever the issue gets resolved. I'd trade TJ for a bag of Fritos right now if possible. I just think having him out of the picture, which allows AJ to take over as the backup POINT GUARD, would get the rook much needed experience and time to assess his prospects. In addition, his attitude bring a welcome change.

Now if we can just coerce OB into limiting Murphy's play somewhat.

PaceBalls
12-31-2009, 07:27 AM
Until Tyler and Hibbert are playing the majority of the minutes together I will be non stop calling for a coaching change. I realize Tyler was out and Jim had a limited roster to work with tonight, but you can bet your a** that it would've been Murph and Soloman Jones out there if he could do it. That or Murph and Hibbert... Murph and Foster, Murph and whoever else, and all of that else are horrible fits with Murph.

There are other things about Jim that I do not like, but my dislike would be much less if we could just have Hibbert and Tyler at C and PF as our starters, finishers and playing the bulk of the mins. And have Murph be our 4th stringer, behind Soloman Jones.

About tonights matchups, DJones on Randolph? uhhg.. McBob played solid, I am glad he is getting some time, he should be the first big off the bench. Unfortunately that is about to change as soon as Murph the Matador comes back.

TJ is just so awful right now, he is playing so casual, brickin layups nonstop.. if there is anyone that quit on the team he is the only one I see.

Dun is struggling too, and whenever he starts to dribble I cringe anymore, it is a guaranteed turnover. I think he is just hurting, I hope his knee isn't giving him probs. But he is night and day from how he played his first 2 weeks back.

Jim needs to completely reevaluate his whole strategy and lineups and start from scratch.

We need to have an inside outside game going with Hibbert as the focal point.

We need to have AJ and Earl playing all the mins at PG, let TJ take AJs bench spot and come in when there is 30 seconds left in blowouts.

Murph needs to be only playing spot minutes when matchups are favoreable, I am ok with him coming in the game behind McBob Foster and SJones :p

Dunleavy needs to be playing spot minutes too, until he is 100%, because he is not, and he is hurting the club when he is out there because of it.

I want to see Brandon Djones and Luther covering the minutes at our 2/3 until Danny is back and Jr is ready to go . We would have a much better team and maybe actually win 1 out of every 4 games.

Anthem
12-31-2009, 07:49 AM
This will probably be fairly brief tonight.
:rotflmao:

Good post though.

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 08:06 AM
The "sad" thing is that almost everyone in this forum is so focused on Jim O'Brien a lot of really important issues have not been addressed. Issues that Mike Wells has been mentioning all season long about player chemistry. Not sure exactly what to make of it yet, but in his blog he discusses it a little. I wish Wells would just tell Kravitz exactly what is going on so we would know too.

Last year's chemistry was great and that IMO is evidenced by how hard the team played last season - this year it is obviously not good. the question is why??

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2009/12/obrien_sends_a.html

Posted by Mike Wells

I've said it in the past and I'll continue to say it, this is a bad mix of players for the Pacers.

Their team chemistry is out of whack, but it's going to be difficult for them to pull off a trade.

Swingman Dahntay Jones reiterated what he said late last week and in Miami earlier this week about the state of the team.

"We have to assess ourselves and be honest," he said. "Certain people are not fighting as hard as others. We have to find a way to bring it every night."

Jones didn't go into details on who he was talking about.

The pieces continue to fall apart for the Pacers.

count55
12-31-2009, 08:14 AM
The "sad" thing is that almost everyone in this forum is so focused on Jim O'Brien a lot of really important issues have not been addressed. Issues that Mike Wells has been mentioning all season long about player chemistry. Not sure exactly what to make of it yet, but in his blog he discusses it a little. I wish Wells would just tell Kravitz exactly what is going on so we would know too.

Last year's chemistry was great and that IMO is evidenced by how hard the team played last season - this year it is obviously not good. the question is why??

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2009/12/obrien_sends_a.html

Posted by Mike Wells

I've said it in the past and I'll continue to say it, this is a bad mix of players for the Pacers.

Their team chemistry is out of whack, but it's going to be difficult for them to pull off a trade.

Swingman Dahntay Jones reiterated what he said late last week and in Miami earlier this week about the state of the team.

"We have to assess ourselves and be honest," he said. "Certain people are not fighting as hard as others. We have to find a way to bring it every night."

Jones didn't go into details on who he was talking about.

The pieces continue to fall apart for the Pacers.

Dahntay Jones reminds me a lot of Anthony Johnson.

DaveP63
12-31-2009, 08:30 AM
That is an interesting question isn't it? Maybe some of the vets resent some of the younger guys stepping in and trying to be leaders on a rudderless ship. Sometimes I pick up that vibe. Seems like early in the year D Jones was very vocal and demonstrative on the floor, what about now?

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 08:34 AM
Dahntay Jones reminds me a lot of Anthony Johnson.

He does seem like a dominant personality, and I think he tries to be a leader. But maybe his teammates don't respect him enough to be a leader. I don't know.

Who we lose from last season - Rasho, Jack, Daniels, Baston, Graham and they were replaced by D. Jones, S. Jones, Watson, Hansbrough, Head, Price.

I think the most significant change was D. Jones replacing Jack at least as far as leadership and heart and soul type players.

Although I think to "blame" Jones seems really unfair to him.

Putnam
12-31-2009, 08:34 AM
Their team chemistry is out of whack.


"Certain people are not fighting as hard as others. We have to find a way to bring it every night."


Last year's chemistry was great and that IMO is evidenced by how hard the team played last season - this year it is obviously not good. the question is why??


Dahntay Jones reminds me a lot of Anthony Johnson.


Is there a best way or a usual way of solving team chemistry issues? Are there even case studies of team that solved such issues -- with details about what they did to solve them?

We all know fictional moments. In Remember the Titans, Denzel Washington takes his players to Gettysburg, PA and makes a rousing speech. Norman Dale wins his Huskers team back by kicking the fathers out of practice and talking directly to the players. But do inspiring speeches like that actually work? Ever?

Locker room insiders always use the all-inclusive pronoun "we" or the vague "certain people." Does there ever come a time when it would be the right thing to do to come out and say (even more specifically than AJ did and Dahntay is doing) that TJ is the problem, or that Dunleavy is the problem, or that the offense is the problem?

Speed
12-31-2009, 08:38 AM
D Jones is always a guy standing and cheering good plays, when he is on the bench or at least it looks like this on TV. Can anyone at the game confirm?

I always think this is a sign of a guy who is not part of the problem. He also seems to freely to talk to guys during dead balls, so it leaves me with the impression that he's actively engaged.

Other guys, I am starting to see that it looks like they are phoning it in, but sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between playing bad/being down on themselves/tired of losing and being a problem.

PaceBalls
12-31-2009, 08:41 AM
That is an interesting question isn't it? Maybe some of the vets resent some of the younger guys stepping in and trying to be leaders on a rudderless ship. Sometimes I pick up that vibe. Seems like early in the year D Jones was very vocal and demonstrative on the floor, what about now?

Isn't that a big part of being a coach as well? Keeping the vibe proper? Backing up the leaders as they emerge? Yes, DJones is not the same player he was, he asserted himself on the court at the start of the season and it seems he got shut down for it. In all this travesty of a season Dahntay seems the biggest casualty to me so far. Here comes this hardnose player, taking control of the team only to be stifled with no one having his back. At least that was it looks like. What a mess. I am certain there is some serious tension in the lockerroom between the players who take losing hard and those who are just living the dream... how can there not be? Again it comes back to the coach for not backing up the right players, but coddling his favorites.

bah I'm just getting pissed off about it, gonna stop now.

Speed
12-31-2009, 08:47 AM
It's probably culture shock, coming from a team with the likes of Carmelo, Kenyon Martin, Birdman, JR Smith, Chauncey Billups, and Nene to the Pacers. That Nugget group ranges from arrogant to vastly confident, I'm not sure the Meek and Mild of the Pacers is something he's used to. Just a thought.

Anthem
12-31-2009, 08:51 AM
It's probably culture shock, coming from a team with the likes of Carmelo, Kenyon Martin, Birdman, JR Smith, Chauncey Billups, and Nene to the Pacers. That Nugget group ranges from arrogant to vastly confident, I'm not sure the Meek and Mild of the Pacers is something he's used to. Just a thought.
We're a lot meeker than we were last year.

Anthem
12-31-2009, 08:52 AM
I've said it in the past and I'll continue to say it, this is a bad mix of players for the Pacers.
I completely agree.

count55
12-31-2009, 09:10 AM
He does seem like a dominant personality, and I think he tries to be a leader. But maybe his teammates don't respect him enough to be a leader. I don't know.

Who we lose from last season - Rasho, Jack, Daniels, Baston, Graham and they were replaced by D. Jones, S. Jones, Watson, Hansbrough, Head, Price.

I think the most significant change was D. Jones replacing Jack at least as far as leadership and heart and soul type players.

Although I think to "blame" Jones seems really unfair to him.

I was merely making an observation. I am not "blaming" Dahntay. This was my take after the Dallas game, and it remains largely the same:


Many believe that Dahntay Jones has filled JJís shoes admirably, even exceeding him. I am not one of them. I like Dahntay a great deal, and I think he is going to be a valuable player for this team during the transition. I love the attitude he brings to the team, and I think he has some fine leadership qualities. However, he seems to bring a different type of energy than Jarrett. Now, clearly I donít have first hand access to the locker room, so this is speculation, but Dahntay seems more confrontational than JJ (the row with TJ notwithstanding.) The energy from the team and in the locker room was much more positive last season, and Iím forced to conclude that Jarrett Jack was a big part of that.

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2009/11/game-14-recap-fragile/


D Jones is always a guy standing and cheering good plays, when he is on the bench or at least it looks like this on TV. Can anyone at the game confirm?

I always think this is a sign of a guy who is not part of the problem. He also seems to freely to talk to guys during dead balls, so it leaves me with the impression that he's actively engaged.

Other guys, I am starting to see that it looks like they are phoning it in, but sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between playing bad/being down on themselves/tired of losing and being a problem.

Being "actively engaged" isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing. It's just a thing. What matters is how he actually interacts with his teammates.

One of the big things that I find reminiscent of AJ is that his importance/prominence on the team far outweighs his actual value to the team. I guess you could probably throw Croshere (historically) into the mix on that type of conversation, as well.

Whether he's an active part of the problem or not, I couldn't tell you. I just don't see any evidence that he's really a part of the solution, either.

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 09:14 AM
count55, I wasn't suggesting that you were blaming him. I think Jones replacing Jack has probably hurt the chemistry - my point was at least Jones is trying and I might tend to blame his teammates either for not being willing to follow Jones or for not stepping up themselves. Of course this is all conjecture

count55
12-31-2009, 09:24 AM
Also, note what's happening up in Toronto as Jarrett Jack is beginning to take a more dominant role on that team. They've won 7 of their last 11, all of which featured JJ as starter.

Leadership is such an elusive (and sometimes, illusory) quality. I can't explain why, nor am I saying woulda, shoulda, coulda on JJ's contract, but I have to wonder if he just wasn't one of those guys that is able to earn an innate, almost instinctual respect and (more importantly) trust of others. Hell, I even think Jack had a very positive impact on TJ.

This is a lot more nebulous than I really like. I don't believe any of these guys are bad guys. I don't think any of them are quitters. However, put yourself in their position and consider how the futility of it all could make you feel defeated. This has nothing to do with weakness of character. It simply has to do with being human.

NuffSaid
12-31-2009, 09:28 AM
I caught the game from midway in the 2Q forward and thought that the Pacers played hard. They still made plenty of mistakes, but the finer points Peck points out in the OP are spot on at least from the action I saw.

Murphy, Hansborough, Foster, Granger (and Diener) - all out. The Grizzlies like the Hawks and Raptors are very long, very lean. It's hard for the Pacers to play against teams like that because they really don't have the size to complete. All we have left as far as Big Men to counter that are Hibbert, McRobs and Solo. So, I wasn't surprised when we had difficulty shooting over some the taller Grizzlie players. What did impress me was how unintimidated players like McRobs, Head and Hibbert seemed to be out there. They worked hard to close the gap. It was very nice to see these guys play with heart instead of watching (some of the veteran) players hanging their heads looking dejected out there. The Pacers may have loss, but they continued to fight hard to stay in it, and that's all you can really ask for...hard work and honest effort.

BillS
12-31-2009, 10:00 AM
I think we need to be careful lumping all chemistry problems together as the same thing.

We Pacer fans have been burned often enough that any mention of chemistry means smoldering resentment, players who actively dislike each other, near-fistfights, and other very damaging activities.

The chemistry problems for this team are quite different, I think. I suspect we have a team where no one feels he is good enough to demand a regular role or to demand more of his teammates. There is no clear leader for everyone to rally around so they sort of muddle around. There's no coherence even if there is no conflict. When Dahntay calls for someone to step up and do things, the response is a sort of meek agreement.

The catch-22 is that winning does a lot to fix this kind of chemistry issue, but you need that chemistry to start winning.

Speed
12-31-2009, 10:01 AM
Also, note what's happening up in Toronto as Jarrett Jack is beginning to take a more dominant role on that team. They've won 7 of their last 11, all of which featured JJ as starter.

Leadership is such an elusive (and sometimes, illusory) quality. I can't explain why, nor am I saying woulda, shoulda, coulda on JJ's contract, but I have to wonder if he just wasn't one of those guys that is able to earn an innate, almost instinctual respect and (more importantly) trust of others. Hell, I even think Jack had a very positive impact on TJ.

This is a lot more nebulous than I really like. I don't believe any of these guys are bad guys. I don't think any of them are quitters. However, put yourself in their position and consider how the futility of it all could make you feel defeated. This has nothing to do with weakness of character. It simply has to do with being human.


Yep, I agree, Count55! Also, my biggest fear in losing Jack this summer wasn't his numbers, but that intangible.

1.) I think the way players follow a guy is that they understand he has the "whole"'s best interest in mind and therefore their best interest in mind.

2.) I also, think you have to have defined roles for guys so they feel part of the "whole". EX I always think of Jalen Rose as a role player, it just so happened his role was to score. Not the typical way you define role player, though. It made Jalen feel good and it helped the team.

3.) I think the way a guy gets to lead is to willing to sacrifice for the team. First and foremost. Jordan didn't get his championships until he started trusting John Paxson to take shots at the end of games.

4.) To be a vocal leader I think it's a combination of being willing to sacrifice and have the innate personality to say things, but not offend guys or kiss their arse. Usually guys like this can be pretty good coaches from a personell management standpoint, imo.

I think Jack will be a really good coach someday.

Maybe D Jones problem is he came from an environment that allowed you to abruptly and distinctly say what needed to be said and guys that are arrogant could take it.

Here, he didn't get the chance to establish himself as a personality on the team, yet. Also, he is working with guys who maybe don't like to be talked to so directly.

So what's missing?

1. & 3. Guys who put the whole ahead of the parts? I think there are some guys who don't naturally... get this. For example, TJ, I think he's a nice guy, but I don't think he sees that whole is greater than the sum of it's part thing, at all. I think he sees the game in a vaccuum or microcosm, play by play. No big picture acknowledgement. I think this was the very root of the problem that Jack had with him last year. It's misplaced to really blame him, I think, it's just how he's put together right now.

2. )Defined roles for guys? Nope, this is maybe Obie's biggest fail to me. It hurts chemistry, it hurts young guys understanding/development. Not all Obie's fault, he's dealing with injuries, losing, and a unmatched group by design. Part of this falls on Morway/Bird, but even then that's not true because the current year's incarnation isn't designed to be a completed product. Part of the team is here via inequitable trade out of need. Part is young and relatively clueless. Part is patchwork. I mean it's flawed, but it's kind of supposed to be in year 2 of the process. But I think this is where a bunch of the frustration lies and the disconnect. I think Detroit is kind of going through the same thing.

4.) Vocal leaders. I think D Jones is this innately, I'm just not sure he's being accepted by the whole. I think they completely miss Jack, cuz he was maybe more subtle or had more finesse in doing it. I don't mean in a cheesy salesman sort of way, but just in a better way for this group. Jack was always smiling, loves the game, I believe he worked as hard as anyone in practice. I guess I think Jack had the cred to back it up, is what i'm saying, I guess. Other vocal leaders? I thought Dunleavy, but the wheels have fallen off for him in the last two weeks both play and really he looks a little apathetic to me. I'm completely just throwing this out there, but I wonder if there was something big that either happened or is going on with him either with the team or personally. Like I wonder if he got into it big time with someone or if like maybe his agent asked for a trade. He just seems like a completely different player in production by even moreso in body language.

I'm obviously guessing, but those are my thoughts.

Side note: Bill Simmons book talks about this kind of thing in the Bill Russel vs. Wilt Chamberlain section and in referencing "the secret" of basketball. Basically sacrificing personal stats and individual accomplishments for the betterment of the team.

Edit:written in the spirit of Peck's intended "quick" and "brief" post idea. :D

Tom White
12-31-2009, 10:35 AM
This is a lot more nebulous than I really like. I don't believe any of these guys are bad guys. I don't think any of them are quitters. However, put yourself in their position and consider how the futility of it all could make you feel defeated. This has nothing to do with weakness of character. It simply has to do with being human.

Let's add something else to that. What effect has hearing Bird make it very clear that some of these guys are not considered part of the team's future had on them?

It is one thing if the player(s) in question know they are at the end of their career, and ready to retire. It is quite another thing if the player(s) are at, what should be, the midway point of their career.

Yes, they are all supposed to be pro's, and they are supposed to understand that this is a business. But you also have to remember they are human, and like to feel that they belong. I have to think Bird's words could be having an effect on some of them.

Since86
12-31-2009, 10:39 AM
I think we need to be careful lumping all chemistry problems together as the same thing.

We Pacer fans have been burned often enough that any mention of chemistry means smoldering resentment, players who actively dislike each other, near-fistfights, and other very damaging activities.

The chemistry problems for this team are quite different, I think. I suspect we have a team where no one feels he is good enough to demand a regular role or to demand more of his teammates. There is no clear leader for everyone to rally around so they sort of muddle around. There's no coherence even if there is no conflict. When Dahntay calls for someone to step up and do things, the response is a sort of meek agreement.

The catch-22 is that winning does a lot to fix this kind of chemistry issue, but you need that chemistry to start winning.

Very good post.

A couple of years ago, we had too many Chiefs, and not enough indians. Now, I don't see any Chiefs. Danny being out has something to do with it, but even then, I don't think he has the personality to lay down the law on some of the guys.

I don't think they've quit on the team, I just just think their morale is so damn low.

They desperately need back to back wins.

Bball
12-31-2009, 10:42 AM
Don't discount the wind getting taken from the players' sails when lame duck O'Brien was given an early extension.

Having a coach the team isn't confident in and can't rally behind is BOUND to create bad chemistry...

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 10:48 AM
Don't discount the wind getting taken from the players' sails when lame duck O'Brien was given an early extension.

Having a coach the team isn't confident in and can't rally behind is BOUND to create bad chemistry...

Do you really think anyone has discounted the Jim O'Brien effect. That is pretty much all that we have discussed for 2 and a half months is Jim O'Brien.

I think it is refreshing to take a look at this team from a different angle for a change

DaveP63
12-31-2009, 11:14 AM
Leadership in a vaccum is always a difficult situation, especially when you are dealing with professional athletes and their personalities. Therein lies the problem, I think. There has been discussion of willingness to put aside personal feelings, goals, stats, etc. for the betterment of the team.

Sometimes I question whether or not I'm seeing that. Not that I mean I'm seeing a "screw it. I'm going to get mine" mentality, it's just that I sometimes sense a tenseness or an edgy feel when some mixes of players are on the court. It seems to have gotten more pronounced lately. I'm sure loosing does that. But the real question is who is there that will rise to the challenge and take over the leadership? It seems that anyone that tries to step up is either shunned or tuned out by the "clique". I'm not sure who is in the clique, but part of me wants to say TJ and Murph...Maybe not...

In my opinion, we haven't had a real leader since Reggie quit. Can you imagine him tolerating sulking and slighting your teamates? I can't...Let me revise that thought a little...Jack, I think was that guy last year and that's why his loss was so damaging to this team.

Just my .02 folks...

Peck
12-31-2009, 12:24 PM
Ok, I posted what I thought was a fairly positive and uplifting post about how the undermanned and out talented Pacers played a decent game, I even complimented the coaching.

And I come back today to see that it has turned into this????

Fair enough, I want to play as well.

I think I will agree that there are player issues and Count55 using Anthony Johnson as a comparison to D. Jones seems pretty accurate. It does appear at times he rubs some of the guys the wrong way. I know that back during the time frame of which U.B. does not want us to speak (some kind of win streak or something) that even though we were winning there were a couple of times that he and Granger were really sniping at each other on the court.

However let's not all over look one giant pink elephant in the room here. There have now been two independent outside the Indiana media reports that Troy Murphy is disgruntled. One of which if I recall right even made the statement that he was unhappy about having to split time with Hansbrough. Thus leading me back to my thoughts about the Pacers outsmarting themselves by making it to obvious that the players with the expiring contracts are either not going to be here or if they are here at all it will be on much smaller salaries. It might be kind of like your boss telling you to train your replacement without actually telling you they are firing you but in the end you know.

I then wonder how much of this goes on with T.J. & even maybe Mike.

Hey, you can't blame me for going in this direction. I wanted my thoughts to be happy and serene but Uncle Buck using his normal pessimism and dark sider influence took us here.:D As you know I am always trying to look for the good in people.:angel:

Speed
12-31-2009, 12:32 PM
Edit: Any guesses on who all is disgruntled?

Anthem
12-31-2009, 12:52 PM
There have now been two independent outside the Indiana media reports that Troy Murphy is disgruntled.
Interesting point. Do you remember what the sources were? It seems like one was Chad Ford and the other was some beat reporter... I don't remember when or where. Would love to go read those things again.

count55
12-31-2009, 01:07 PM
Interesting point. Do you remember what the sources were? It seems like one was Chad Ford and the other was some beat reporter... I don't remember when or where. Would love to go read those things again.

Yes, one was Chad Ford. The second was Brian Windhorst from Cleveland.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2009/12/with_gms_beginning_to_assess_r.html

I also think that Alex Kennedy from Hoopsworld/RealGM mentioned it, but he has no sources outside of Orlando and has dubious reliability.

One of the things that is problematic with the internet is that it's difficult to tell when reports are actually from multiple, independent sources, and when they are simply recycling what they've heard previously.

In other words, it is a decent possibility that Windhorst and Kennedy were simply re-reporting what Chad Ford said.

CableKC
12-31-2009, 02:31 PM
Dahntay Jones reminds me a lot of Anthony Johnson.
Wait....is that a good or bad thing?

I thought that he was rumored to be one bad locker room guys on the team that was moved because he didn't get along with the rest of the Team :confused:

Peck
12-31-2009, 03:42 PM
Wait....is that a good or bad thing?

I thought that he was rumored to be one bad locker room guys on the team that was moved because he didn't get along with the rest of the Team :confused:

Yea that is kind of what he is getting at I think. I'm not saying that D. Jones is anything like that per say but he does seem to have an agressive personality and I'm not sure that everyone is on board with his type of confrontational leadership.

Unclebuck
12-31-2009, 03:50 PM
Yea that is kind of what he is getting at I think. I'm not saying that D. Jones is anything like that per say but he does seem to have an agressive personality and I'm not sure that everyone is on board with his type of confrontational leadership.

But maybe they should be.

My impression is we have several really sensitive players on the Pacers team.

Peck
12-31-2009, 03:52 PM
But maybe they should be.

My impression is we have several really sensitive players on the Pacers team.

Can't say I disagree with you there.

BillS
12-31-2009, 03:54 PM
But maybe they should be.

My impression is we have several really sensitive players on the Pacers team.

Hmm. That could explain a lot.

"Mr. Daniels! Mr. Daniels! Dahntay called me a smelly poopy-face!"

"Well, go tell Coach."

"I did, but he called me something I wasn't able to understand!"

"OK, then, I'll tell the media."

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2009, 04:04 PM
I think Dahntay is solid with Watson and Head, and that Rush and Hibbert are perhaps more comfortable with them than the vets. DJ and Roy seem to be the most passionate guys on the sideline, though to be fair TJ was cheering plenty last night. Gotta give him credit for that at least.



Interesting game from a guy that scouts guys now, Hibbert vs Thabeet is a classic and of course Price played with Thabeet, and they all saw plenty of Sam Young and his PIT team as well. Tons of comfort for Price, and that's why I think you saw him try to go off dribble when Young was on him. Of course the size advantage for Young was a joke at the other end. Not a good matchup.


Hibby still looks intimidated or out of place at times, but it is better. He's finding that his scoring is legit and that he does belong out there. McRoberts looks not only not intimidated, but outright confident at times.

Two games in a row he's made backdoor cut reads for the oop dunk. That's not slop time play, that's reading the floor like a vet. I think the game is coming to him.

Rush and Hibbert have it come and go still. It's sputtering to life, so you get the great moments and the disappointment. But I think it's going to catch for both of them because I've seen both make really high quality reads at both ends of the court. They have seen the game dial in for short periods of time.

Honestly I know the JOB defenders hate it, but I think a lot of these guys are struggling more with the system itself than NBA caliber competition.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2009, 04:11 PM
Yes, one was Chad Ford. The second was Brian Windhorst from Cleveland.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2009/12/with_gms_beginning_to_assess_r.html

I also think that Alex Kennedy from Hoopsworld/RealGM mentioned it, but he has no sources outside of Orlando and has dubious reliability.

One of the things that is problematic with the internet is that it's difficult to tell when reports are actually from multiple, independent sources, and when they are simply recycling what they've heard previously.

In other words, it is a decent possibility that Windhorst and Kennedy were simply re-reporting what Chad Ford said.
And with all this you have to unfortunately drag Mel Daniels back out. Mel was unhappy and I get that maybe he wasn't the most easy to deal with guy, but often as people are ranting on their way out the door they do tell the truth as a way of hitting back.

I think it's reasonable to believe that Mel wasn't just talking out his rear when he said some players were unhappy with JOB, or perhaps it's just the situation in general.

Sookie
12-31-2009, 05:35 PM
D Jones is always a guy standing and cheering good plays, when he is on the bench or at least it looks like this on TV. Can anyone at the game confirm?

I always think this is a sign of a guy who is not part of the problem. He also seems to freely to talk to guys during dead balls, so it leaves me with the impression that he's actively engaged.

Other guys, I am starting to see that it looks like they are phoning it in, but sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between playing bad/being down on themselves/tired of losing and being a problem.

Yes, it's consistently DJones and AJ standing and cheering.

That's nice to see from AJ, but it's also something to think about too. Why is it the second round rookie doing the cheering? Why isn't TJ up cheering when Watson is in. I realise that stuff is going to come from your bigger personalities, so introverts like Tyler probably aren't going to the be ones cheering on the bench, but it's also kinda...well..shows where the chemistry is.

DJones is always up cheering. He's always talking to guys, always showing emotion, always enouraging teammates with a pat on the butt. He's the closest thing to a leader. Even WITH Granger.

But he has an issue now. Teams have figured out he can score, and now he's about the only threat we sometimes stick on the floor. Then, we don't play defense...He's a good player, he's just not good enough to be everything for a team.

The chemistry is another reason why I keep insisting on the younger guys with a little bit of Watson and DJones. There's a huge difference in body language between Price, Hans, and Roy vs. TJ, Dun and Troy. Stick Rush in with the younger guys, suddenly he looks better too. McRobert's body language is definitely insecure, much like Rush's. But I really can't blame either of the two for that. They are young, and they haven't gotten JOB's full confidence, nor have they gotten consistency.

Edit: apparently TJ was cheering last night. Good for him. Seeing as he can play the cheerleader role well, maybe he should take it from AJ.

Doug
12-31-2009, 06:47 PM
Troy Murphy is disgruntled.

That's OK, because I think most of us are disgruntled with Troy.

Bball
01-01-2010, 02:57 AM
Do you really think anyone has discounted the Jim O'Brien effect. That is pretty much all that we have discussed for 2 and a half months is Jim O'Brien.

I think it is refreshing to take a look at this team from a different angle for a change

I'm not talking about his coaching or his system per se'.... I'm just saying several players could've been ready for a change (for whatever reasons which could include his system, his coaching, his personality, his practices, his stubborness, his car, his favorite song.... whatever....) and instead of him going into the season as a lame duck he gets an extension.

I can't imagine having a boss that I was sick of and all the employees thought management was seeing the same things we were seeing and he'd be let go soon... and instead management gives him an extension thereby removing any lame duck status PLUS showing the employees maybe we all weren't on the same page we thought we were.

That may not be the only problem but I don't think the extension helped anything...

Unclebuck
01-01-2010, 08:47 AM
I'm not talking about his coaching or his system per se'.... I'm just saying several players could've been ready for a change (for whatever reasons which could include his system, his coaching, his personality, his practices, his stubborness, his car, his favorite song.... whatever....) and instead of him going into the season as a lame duck he gets an extension.

I can't imagine having a boss that I was sick of and all the employees thought management was seeing the same things we were seeing and he'd be let go soon... and instead management gives him an extension thereby removing any lame duck status PLUS showing the employees maybe we all weren't on the same page we thought we were.

That may not be the only problem but I don't think the extension helped anything...

Yes that is assuming that the players were sick of O'Brien coming into this season. I didn't see any evidence of that - they played hard all of last season getting 36 wins IMO is over-achieving

Justin Tyme
01-01-2010, 09:42 AM
Yes that is assuming that the players were sick of O'Brien coming into this season. I didn't see any evidence of that - they played hard all of last season getting 36 wins IMO is over-achieving


Just b/c they might have overachieved last year doesn't mean they were happy with the O'Brien or his system. Some might have been counting on and looking forward to this being Jimmy's last year. Once the extension was given it just took the wind out of their sails having to put up with Jimmy for 2 more years instead of just this year. Maybe it's not O'Brien they don't care for, but the type of system he has. It's just not a system/style they want to play.

Seriously, what would it take for you to believe that players are sick of O'Brien and/or his system/style of play? You don't see any evidence players currently aren't happy with O'Brien and his system/style?

You have said, I agree, that the Pacers have the poorest talent in the NBA. In your personal opinion what type of system should these players be playing to maximize the talent they have to win games?

Brad8888
01-01-2010, 09:54 AM
I still think that Dahntay was let go by Denver because he has a tendency to have a leadership personality without the level of play to back it up. That has to wear thin at points when other guys play just as well as, if not better than he does, yet he gets the attention because he plays harder and his mistakes are overlooked as they were here in the beginning. The tendency to overlook his mistakes has lessened a lot as the season has progressed, and opposing teams have adjusted for his offensive tendencies, and now I would guess that he has an even harder time getting anyone to follow his leadership, which would frustrate him.

Also, the game that Lester Conner benched Dahntay for the remainder of was not accidental. Dahntay was doing as he thought was best regardless of the plan implemented by the coaching staff. Conner did the right thing and came down on him. I wonder if there is an undercurrent of discontent within the lockerroom about the coaching staff that comes from him to an extent, and if so, who else is in agreement with Dahntay? Who else would we be trying to trade (or at least acting like we are to regain order in the ranks)?

BlueNGold
01-01-2010, 10:11 AM
Dahntay Jones is telling you everything you need to know.

Shortly after the infamous 5 game winning streak where the team dominated their opponents, Dahntay questioned whether the team was playing the right style. He indicated that he knew why they were winning previously when he said it didn't happen by luck.

Now...rather than talking style, he's getting closer to naming names. He says: "We have to assess ourselves and be honest,....Certain people are not fighting as hard as others. We have to find a way to bring it every night."

Certain.....people. Who could that be? ...because you know he has at least a couple people in mind.

McKeyFan
01-01-2010, 11:05 AM
murph and ford

Hicks
01-01-2010, 11:47 AM
Dominated?

Brad8888
01-01-2010, 11:52 AM
Dominated?

Crushed them like so many bugs scurrying around the floor after the lights are turned on in the room. Reminded me of 1998 through 2004, really, didn't you feel that way? :p;):D:):devil:

Wow, what a good belly laugh does to lift the mood! Thanks for pointing out that word!

BlueNGold
01-01-2010, 01:19 PM
Dominated?

Compared to what's happened since then...yes.

But really, we got way up on a few of those teams, had a swagger.

I'm not concluding anything. However, there was something going on....at least from a chemistry standpoint. I have not seen that swarming defense since...

Edit: BTW, you saw some of that heart and energy at the end of the Grizzly game...and Granger and Hans weren't even available.

BlueNGold
01-01-2010, 01:21 PM
murph and ford

I hope that's what he's thinking. However, I'm nearly certain he's talking about at least Murphy...and that's just based on circumstances...not what I think of his game.