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View Full Version : Stein on S. Jackson - March 19th



Grant
07-10-2004, 11:27 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1763790

You know what they say, whoever they are. They aren't impressed by big numbers on a bad team, especially not at this late date. They don't mean much, those kinds of numbers.


Right?


"I don't think I've ever been on a roll like this," Stephen Jackson counters. "Not even in high school.


"I think I'm writing my own check as long as I continue to play like this."


You know what? He just might be right, no matter what they say. If Jackson continues to score the ball like he has since the calendar flipped to March, he could well make second-half numbers meaningful, even after Chicago's Eddy Curry spent much of this season reminding us that they're usually not.


It has only been a few games, but they've been sufficiently spectacular to prompt the question: Can Jackson recoup this summer what he lost last summer? Once again, he's right. If Jack averages 34 points every four games for the rest of the season, you can be fairly certain someone will drive his salary much closer to the league average of $5 million.


He might do all right even if he slumps back into the 20s.


"That's what I'm hoping," Jackson said. "I'm not going to sit here and lie and say when it first happened that I didn't regret things. But when I signed with Atlanta, I promised myself that I'm going to make the best of it. It's working out to my favor now."


The regrets swamped Jackson in September and October, when he ranked as perhaps the biggest free-agent loser of the summer. He spurned a three-year deal worth some $10 million from the team he helped win a championship in June, then was forced to slink out of San Antonio when the Spurs made a trade to replace him with Hedo Turkoglu and Ron Mercer. When no other substantial offers came, Jackson found himself scrounging for a two-year deal from the Hawks worth just over $2 million -- with an option to return to free agency after this season.


It was instantly and widely concluded that Jackson had just made the mistake of his life -- in a life already littered with turnovers.


With the Spurs, and all the open looks Tim Duncan creates, Jackson was often a game-breaker with his knuckleball threes. But take Jack out of the strict environment Spurs coach Gregg Popovich oversees and who knew what might happen to a guy prone to pouting ... and who had already been discarded by Arizona because of insufficient test scores ... and by Phoenix, Vancouver, Chicago and New Jersey in the NBA ... and who had made stops in Venezuela and the Dominican Republic before finally making it with the Nets ... and who then partied his way off Jersey's roster.


Suspicions that trouble would find Jackson again grew louder when he wound up with the Hawks, who didn't even harbor playoff hopes, much less championship aspirations. If playing in an empty, soul-less building wasn't enough of an indignity, Jackson found himself stripped of his only accomplished teammates when the Hawks shipped out Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Theo Ratliff and then -- after only one game -- Rasheed Wallace. In its current state, Atlanta can feel about as far away from the NBA as any outpost on the league map.


Because he's in Atlanta, chances are you haven't seen much of Jackson. I got my first up-close look at him Wednesday, after seeing him dozens of times with the Spurs, and couldn't miss the improvements in his game.


No question, it's easy to be swayed when a guy detonates for 31 points before halftime, even against the defenseless Mavs. Yet the second half was just as telling. Dallas threw a box-and-one at him, the sort of face-guarding that inevitably would have drawn a flurry of forced shots or turnovers from the old Jack.


"Last year?" he said. "Yeah, I would have gotten frustrated. But I knew that team, and with the caliber of players they have, they weren't going to let me have another half that like."


This Jack didn't try to force things. He calmly settled for five points after halftime to finish with 36, as the Hawks -- who only have Jason Terry and Bob Sura to turn to these days when Jackson is blanketed -- held on for a one-point upset. And the 36, mind you, was only Jackson's third highest total of the month, after 39 points against Seattle the night before, and 42 against Washington four days prior.


Although he has been victimizing some of the worst defenses in the league, it's evident that Jackson, at 25, is growing up and getting better. He did serve a one-game suspension in December for clashing with coach Terry Stotts -- and it's not a given that he's less of a pouter when he's getting so many minutes and shots -- but Jackson has clearly expanded his offensive game. Early in the season, he settled too often for 3-point shots, open or not. Now he's getting to the basket -- and the free-throw line -- with greater frequency. He's coming off screens better, too, and adding those options has resulted in better 3-point looks.



Stephen Jackson goes up for a basket against the Washington Wizards Friday at the MCI Center.
"Coach (Stotts) told me I'm known as a 3-point shooter, so I've been trying to put the ball on the floor," Jackson said. "A lot of guys my size can shoot, but they can't really take guys off the dribble. I worked on my defense, too. I learned a lot from Bruce Bowen last year. I want to go out and show the world I can do a little bit of everything.


"It all started this summer when I didn't get the contract I wanted," Jackson continued. "A lot of people said I couldn't really play without Tim Duncan. But I got on my knees and prayed, and devoted myself to working on my game and proving people wrong.


"I've been doing that all my life. Byron Scott said I couldn't play on his team, and we beat them in the Finals. I like proving people wrong. I think that's a gift that I have."


The Spurs have seen enough to wish they still had Jack at times, even with Turkoglu gradually settling in and Bowen and Manu Ginobili still anchoring the swing rotation. The champs miss his emotion, and -- given San Antonio's concerns about its perimeter shooting -- the triples that come in bunches. Popovich made Jackson serve a one-year internship on the Spurs' injured list before he let him play in real games, but Jack has sold Pop to the point that San Antonio explored reacquiring him before last month's trading deadline.


"I was told that, and I was willing to go back," Jackson said. "The only reason I didn't want to go back is that I didn't want to be in the same situation this summer that I was last summer. But I would love to go back there. Who would turn down another chance to play with Tim Duncan?"


The undesirable situation, as Jackson described it, was the waiting in limbo while the Spurs pursued their free-agent priorities. Now, though, Jackson believes the Spurs will be one of the teams pursuing him this summer.


"I'm a big believer in everything happens for a reason," Jackson said. "It's starting to work out in my favor."


No matter what they say.

Anthem
07-11-2004, 12:15 AM
Much more like this, and I could get excited.

sixthman
07-11-2004, 12:16 AM
That's a great article on a guy who may turn out to be just what the doctor ordered for the Pacers.

Unclebuck
07-11-2004, 10:09 AM
I hope everyone gets a chance to read this article

sweabs
07-11-2004, 10:26 AM
Good article. I am mostly glad to hear about his defensive game.

able
07-11-2004, 10:47 AM
It is my guess we all read something different.
I am happy we signed him, not with the price, but I am happy if the result is we keep the rest of the team in one piece as it is.
However if I read it my eyes get drawn to:


"I think I'm writing my own check as long as I continue to play like this."
I mean is that his motivation? where's doing a good thing for a franchise paying your bills?
and


he could well make second-half numbers meaningful, even after Chicago's Eddy Curry spent much of this season reminding us that they're usually not.
Scary comparison.

also:

When no other substantial offers came, Jackson found himself scrounging for a two-year deal from the Hawks worth just over $2 million -- with an option to return to free agency after this season.

1 YEAR AGO! and now we're breaking the bank for him.

this doesn't make me jump in joy either:


With the Spurs, and all the open looks Tim Duncan creates, Jackson was often a game-breaker with his knuckleball threes. But take Jack out of the strict environment Spurs coach Gregg Popovich oversees and who knew what might happen to a guy prone to pouting ... and who had already been discarded by Arizona because of insufficient test scores ... and by Phoenix, Vancouver, Chicago and New Jersey in the NBA ... and who had made stops in Venezuela and the Dominican Republic before finally making it with the Nets ... and who then partied his way off Jersey's roster.

Despite the improvement, still unnerving;

He did serve a one-game suspension in December for clashing with coach Terry Stotts -- and it's not a given that he's less of a pouter when he's getting so many minutes and shots --

Add to that the fact he only started to "blossom" when he was the team's major option, untill then he had struggled, after the trade(give)aways he came into his own.

What I read is another handfull with a big ego that will be hard to keep in check, a risk I think worthwhile for the right price, whether 44 million US Dollars over a 6 year term is the right price is something I am not nearly convinced of.

Anthem
07-11-2004, 02:09 PM
1 YEAR AGO! and now we're breaking the bank for him.

Repeate after me...

It's just the MLE... It's just the MLE.... It's just the MLE....

able
07-11-2004, 02:47 PM
1 YEAR AGO! and now we're breaking the bank for him.

Repeate after me...

It's just the MLE... It's just the MLE.... It's just the MLE....


ok, but then repeat after me: it is 44 million for 6 years it is 44 million for 6 years

Suaveness
07-11-2004, 03:21 PM
Will's post in the indystar thread makes it much better. It really isn't bad, considering we are saving a lot of money.

And this is a very good article.

Zesty
07-11-2004, 04:30 PM
I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

In the 99-00 season, Jalen Rose led the Pacers in scoring at 18.2 pts/gm, and had averages of 4.8 RPG & 4.0 APG. Following this season, he got a 7 yr max deal from Indy.

Stephen Jackson's stats for this past year: 18.1 PPG, 4.6 RPG, and 3.1 APG, and we're getting him for the MLE. Seems like a hell of a deal to me.

Roaming Gnome
07-11-2004, 04:53 PM
Great Article!

Maybe playing off of J.O. will be a lot like playing off of Tim Duncan where we might be able to see numbers comparable to what he had in S. A.

Unclebuck
07-11-2004, 06:34 PM
Coaches always say they never really know a player until they coach them.

Well Brown has coached Jackson, so he knows him very well. and Brown must ave been in favor of this deal.

Ultimate Frisbee
07-11-2004, 06:40 PM
Coaches always say they never really know a player until they coach them.

Well Brown has coached Jackson, so he knows him very well. and Brown must ave been in favor of this deal.



Very good point...

another point for us...

able
07-11-2004, 06:55 PM
UB not to be a spoilsport, but weren't you also one that shouted not for this kind of money ?

Who else would have paid him this kind of money?

Though I see the why with the trade, I still feel it is an aweful long time for an awful lot of money.

bulletproof
07-11-2004, 07:10 PM
Keep your fingers crossed, able. Hopefully in a year or two Jackson will turn out to be a bust and you can tell us all, "I told you so."

able
07-11-2004, 07:19 PM
BP, that comment is utterly childish and nearing stupidity.
I am awfully sorry that I'm unable to cheer every move made by management and to shout hip hip hip for every player added to the roster, certainly if there are intangibles involved that none of us can oversee, such as in this case the departure of Al.

"I told you so" means shi* all to me, the well being of the Pacers however a lot.

I do however have a right to an opinion, even though it may not stroke with yours, or with any one else in particular.
I submit arguments in favour of my opinion, such as stats, but if all you can come up with in favour of this trade is that I can say "i told you so" in two years time, then why not right now?

I have not invented my opposition to this trade over the lat 24 horus, in fact I have not even spoken out to be opposed, I am just stating that we are paying to much, which is an enormous difference from "he stinks".

If you want to read only positive opinionson the pacers then I suggest you read pacers.com and the Indy Star and rest with that, here people have the freedom to disagree, as long as decency prevails and some effort is made to back those opinions up.

I have backed mine up, where are your arguments?

Will Galen
07-11-2004, 08:50 PM
Will's post in the indystar thread makes it much better. It really isn't bad, considering we are saving a lot of money.

Here's the post referred to.

Interestingly the Pacers are likely to save money in this proposed trade.

Taking the published figures for Jackson's contract of $44m, his salary should be close to this.

[1] $5,500,000
[2] $6,187,500
[3] $6,875,000
[4] $7,562,000
[5] $8,250,000
[6] $8,937,500
Total $43,312,500

I could work it out closer, but knowing that people round figures off, and usually upward, this might be the actual offer. Whatever, the figures will be close.

Harrington is due to make this amount in the remaining two years of his contract.
[1] $6,250,000
[2] $6,875,000

Thus we see the Pacer's actually saving a bit of money in the trade. They would save $750,000, the first year and $687,500 the second year. Al if he stayed with the Pacers would probably have signed an extension, which would over the same amount of time as Jackson's contract would look thus,

[3] $7,734,375
[4] $8,593,750
[5] $9,453,125
[6] $10,312,500
Total $49,219,375

If my figures are correct or even close the Pacer's could save almost $6 million dollars over the life of Jackson's contract.

That sounds like Donnie!

Unclebuck
07-11-2004, 09:29 PM
Able, I was hoping no one would remember what I said about Jackson not being worth 40 million.

Well I still don't think he is worth that much, as I said that is Croshere type money.

But I think either Ron or Al had to go, and overall Al for Jackson is not a bad trade.

bulletproof
07-11-2004, 09:29 PM
able, you missed my point entirely. Since the trade you've appeared around every corner to throw a wet blanket on it. And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But you've stated it already. We've heard you loud and clear, and often.

You said we overpaid for Jackson. Okay. Fine. I believe he was a bargain. Firstly, Jackson wouldn't have settled for the MLE. You have to know Walsh and/or Bird had extensive discussions with Jackson's agent to determine what was a fair and acceptable offer. You also don't know what other offers, if any, we're on the table. Moreover, had we hesitated and waited any longer, I have very little doubt someone would have snapped him up. Or, like I said, if there was another decent offer on the table, he would have taken it. Also, bear in mind that we have yet to know the full extent of this deal. Pens haven't even been put to paper yet. Might I suggest you curb your opinion until all the details of the trade are released.

As for me, right now I like the fact that we didn't have to gut our team to land a very capable SG.

able
07-11-2004, 09:46 PM
As i said quite clearly also from the beginning, in the light of the trade (which was in the first hour not as such announced, but and outright signing) I can live with it.

and thus agree with UB, but ........

it remains that we are paying a lot for a long time

And whether he would not have settled or would, seeing it from a trae de point of view is moot, however if an outright signing was considered then I merely point ot the previous year where the same player expected a lot more and ended up signing with atl for 1 mio.


And once more: I am happy we have a SG on the roster, all i said is let's not make him he second coming of TMac, he's a servicable roleplayer and not an All Star.

bulletproof
07-11-2004, 09:51 PM
And once more: I am happy we have a SG on the roster, all i said is let's not make him he second coming of TMac, he's a servicable roleplayer and not an All Star.


That, my friend, remains to be seen. Who would have ever expected Billups to be a finals MVP a couple of years ago?

Hicks
07-11-2004, 09:55 PM
Woah now. Take a step back bullet. Jackson is NOT an all-star. I think he's pretty good, but not All-Star good.

PacerCrazy
07-11-2004, 10:31 PM
I think he is a lot like Al Harrington when you talk about whether he will be an All Star. Could he be? Yes!! Will he be?? Who knows! People would have never predicted Brad Miller and ROn Artest would be All-Stars during that trade. I think we just don't know and won't for a couple years. He could be the next Cros. or he could be the next Miller/Artest to break out. Time will tell. I plan to take a wait a see approach but I am definatley optimistic. Let's give the guy a chance and see what happens. I DO think he could be a lot more then a role player but may only amount to a decent back up. We will just have to see.

bulletproof
07-11-2004, 10:53 PM
I think he is a lot like Al Harrington when you talk about whether he will be an All Star. Could he be? Yes!! Will he be?? Who knows! People would have never predicted Brad Miller and ROn Artest would be All-Stars during that trade. I think we just don't know and won't for a couple years. He could be the next Cros. or he could be the next Miller/Artest to break out. Time will tell. I plan to take a wait a see approach but I am definatley optimistic. Let's give the guy a chance and see what happens. I DO think he could be a lot more then a role player but may only amount to a decent back up. We will just have to see.

What he said, Hicks.

Hicks
07-11-2004, 11:01 PM
I won't disagree with that.

Unclebuck
07-11-2004, 11:07 PM
One thing to keep in mind I believe Jackson did not play high school basketball, so he is still raw.

I am surprised no one has brought up the fact that if the Pacers had signed him a year ago like they considered, they coud have gotten him very, very cheap.

ChicagoJ
07-11-2004, 11:36 PM
I'm amazed there aren't more comparisons between Jackson's significant statistical increase last season and Dampier's.

:confused:

Seems to me that rewarding him with a six-year deal (although I'm sure one of the reasons for making this a S&T is to give him a seventh year) is that I'm concerned that he'll regress... Just like many of you have said as a reason to be opposed to re-acquiring Dampier.

Does somebody have the audacity to argue that Stephen Jackson's situation is different than Dampier's?

Hicks
07-11-2004, 11:38 PM
Well, for one thing Jackson's a lot younger.

And if Walsh/Bird believed that for a second, we wouldn't have touched this deal.

ChicagoJ
07-11-2004, 11:42 PM
Well, for one thing Jackson's a lot younger.

And if Walsh/Bird believed that for a second, we wouldn't have touched this deal.

Unless all our top choices were off the board and we were getting desperate. IMO, giving Jackson the MLE or more for six or seven years, or trading Al for him, reeks of desperation.

I understand the argument that he's the best player available right now, but then make it a one or two year deal and see how he responds. :twocents:

Even though he's not my type of player - poor shot selection/ turnovers - I acknowledge that he's an upgrade over a rapidly aging Reggie Miller. I just don't view him as a medium-term or long-term solution.

Hicks
07-11-2004, 11:44 PM
Nah, we won't make a move just to make a move. If we didn't like the deal, we would have stood pat. We're masters of standing pat. GOD KNOWS we're masters of standing pat. :laugh:

ChicagoJ
07-11-2004, 11:46 PM
True, but we don't normally announce - at the end of the season - that our long-term replacement for Reggie isn't on the roster. Clearly signalling that we have to do *something* this summer because in this situation standing pat is a *public* failure (even if its better than making a trade just to make a trade.)

bulletproof
07-12-2004, 12:18 AM
Hawks close to trading Jackson to Pacers for Harrington

By JON KRAWCZYNSKI, Associated Press Writer
July 11, 2004

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- The Atlanta Hawks and Indiana Pacers are closing in on a sign-and-trade deal in which the Hawks would send guard Stephen Jackson to the Pacers for forward Al Harrington.

Hawks vice president Dominique Wilkins said Sunday the two teams are in discussion.

"I don't know if it is complete," Wilkins said. "I'm waiting for confirmation from (general manager) Billy (Knight)."

The teams cannot complete the deal until Wednesday when a two-week leaguewide moratorium on trades and free agent signings expires.

Phone messages seeking comment from Knight and Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh were not returned.

It has been reported that the Hawks would sign the 26-year-old Jackson to a six-year contract worth $44 million, then trade him to the Pacers for Harrington.

"We're close and hopefully it will be done soon. I'm definitely hoping it works out," Jackson told The Indianapolis Star on Saturday from his home in Port Arthur, Texas.

Jackson averaged 18.1 points for the Hawks last season and would provide the consistent perimeter shooting the Pacers sorely lacked last season.

Harrington, who finished second in the voting for sixth man of the year last season, told Pacers president Larry Bird in a season-ending meeting that he would rather be traded than come off the bench again.

Bird made it clear on draft night that Harrington, who can play small and power forward, would not be starting next season for the Pacers.

"At his position is Ronnie Artest and Jermaine O'Neal, so if he's here, he'll be coming off the bench," Bird said.

The 24-year-old averaged 13.3 points and should have plenty of opportunities to start in Atlanta, which had only five players under contract before last month's NBA draft.

Jackson was an integral part of the Spurs' championship team in 2002, hitting timely 3-pointers to take pressure off Tim Duncan and David Robinson in the post.

Jackson would play the same role in Indiana, this time drawing defenders away from O'Neal and Artest, who like to operate on the low block.

Associated Press writer Charles Odum in Atlanta contributed to this report.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpZmFlcXBpBF9TAzk1ODYxOTQ4BHNlYwN0 aA--?slug=ap-hawks-pacerstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns

Anthem
07-12-2004, 01:23 AM
He's probably not ever going to be an All-Star. Especially at guard in the East.

But how many All-Stars do we need on one team?

Ant
07-12-2004, 02:30 AM
One thing to keep in mind I believe Jackson did not play high school basketball, so he is still raw.



I think you meant to say is he didn't play college ball which is true but he was a McDonalds All American in High School and in the HS 3 point shootout, (he lost in the finals, rip hamilton was in the same one but got knocked out early, i saw it a while back on Espn2). He also went to Oak Hill Academy which may be the best HS Basketball program in the country and has produced NBA players like Carmelo, Stackhouse, Jeff Mcinnis, Ron Mercer, Rod Strickland and others.

I'm excited about acquiring Jackson, i saw a lot of him here in San Antonio and my view on him is the same as what many others have already said, Cold Blooded (wont hesitate to take a 3 or a big shot), can finish pretty well, and he IS a good defensive player. He has good size at 6'8 and was 6th in the NBA in steals per game last year at 1.78. His flaws are hes not the best ballhandler, can sometimes let his emotions get the better of him, and he will turn the ball over,but he is still a young player. He can work on these things however and I think he'll be a good fit.