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Jose Slaughter
07-08-2004, 06:31 AM
Just a week or so ago most everyone on here was holding their collective breathe, hoping to land McGrady.

Days later we set our sights on Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

In the past 2 days we are now hoping for Stephen Jackson & maybe Jason Terry.

What will the weekend bring?

Maybe my Rodney White dream will start looking good soon. :p:D:D

bulletproof
07-08-2004, 07:33 AM
:lol2:

Alabama-Redneck
07-08-2004, 08:17 AM
What is really bad is next week when they start begging Bird NOT to trade Pollard.:o:cry::dance:

DisplacedKnick
07-08-2004, 08:39 AM
Hey - I got dibs on him for the Knicks!

Since the Kobe/Shaq/Vince/'Sheed/Stackhouse/Crawford/ yadayadayada rumors aren't gonna pan out ...

Doug in CO
07-08-2004, 08:41 AM
This is still Donnie-do-nothing's team.

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 09:14 AM
I'd rather have Stephen Jackson and keep the team intact then break it up for a selfish "superstar".
All Indy need's is a little more production and youth at shooting guard and they're the best team in the league [again. Stephen Jackson is everybit as good as Rip Hamilton, and is probably better when you look at thier overall games. Plus he has experience. This guy would get us over the hump.

Unclebuck
07-08-2004, 09:38 AM
[again. Stephen Jackson is everybit as good as Rip Hamilton, and is probably better when you look at thier overall games.


I don't agree with that at all

DisplacedKnick
07-08-2004, 10:03 AM
[again. Stephen Jackson is everybit as good as Rip Hamilton, and is probably better when you look at thier overall games.


I don't agree with that at all


Yeah, that was pretty "out there."

Fool
07-08-2004, 10:36 AM
"Plus he has experience."

Right, because winning an NBA Championship doesn't give Rip any experience.

However, I would agree with this
"I'd rather ... keep the team intact then break it up for a selfish 'superstar'."

Watching you guys hope that half your team is traded for one guy is terrible to see especially when you were arguably (though I wouldn't completely agree) an injury away from winning it all.

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 12:04 PM
"Plus he has experience."
Right, because winning an NBA Championship doesn't give Rip any experience.
When did I say Rip didn't have experience?
They're probably about equal in experience.
And how is saying Jackson is just as good as Hamilton "far out there"?
What has Hamilton done that Jackson hasn't?
Been a role player on a championship team?http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/check.gif
Average around 18/5/3?http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/check.gif
Have the misfortune of playing a portion of their career on a bad team?http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/check.gif
So what's the big difference between Rip & Stephen? Rip is a better midrange shooter and more a consistent scorer, Stephen is a more explosive scorer, a better defender, a better rebounder, and a better 3 point shooter.

Snickers
07-08-2004, 12:17 PM
Rip averaged those numbers on a championship team.

SpADeD
07-08-2004, 12:21 PM
"Plus he has experience."
Right, because winning an NBA Championship doesn't give Rip any experience.
When did I say Rip didn't have experience?
They're probably about equal in experience.
And how is saying Jackson is just as good as Hamilton "far out there"?
What has Hamilton done that Jackson hasn't?
Been a role player on a championship team?http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/check.gif
Average around 18/5/3?http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/check.gif
Have the misfortune of playing a portion of their career on a bad team?http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/check.gif
So what's the big difference between Rip & Stephen? Rip is a better midrange shooter and more a consistent scorer, Stephen is a more explosive scorer, a better defender, a better rebounder, and a better 3 point shooter.

A lot of people think very highly of Rip in here becasue he tore us apart.

DisplacedKnick
07-08-2004, 12:22 PM
"Plus he has experience."
Right, because winning an NBA Championship doesn't give Rip any experience.
When did I say Rip didn't have experience?
They're probably about equal in experience.


Sure they are. Rip Hamilton has been the go to guy on an NBA title team.


And how is saying Jackson is just as good as Hamilton "far out there"?

Uh - because he isn't even close? Jackson has one advantage over Hamilton - 3-pt shooting.

Hamilton is a:

Better defender
Better ballhandler
Better Passer
Better scorer
A Guy who can be the go-to guy on a title team

Jackson can give you some points but if he's your number one or two option, your team is in trouble.

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 12:34 PM
You can dispute the other aspects all you want, but there is no way in Hell Rip is a better defender.
Get off Hamilton's jock. He's not a top-5 shooting guard, and it's debatable that he's even top-10. He's a good player on a great team. Nothing more, nothing less.
I perosnally think Jackson has a more well-rounded game and is being seriously underrated because he happened to play on a bad team. Remember Hamilton was considered just slightly above average when he was on the horrible Wizards.

DisplacedKnick
07-08-2004, 12:54 PM
You can dispute the other aspects all you want, but there is no way in Hell Rip is a better defender.
Get off Hamilton's jock. He's not a top-5 shooting guard, and it's debatable that he's even top-10. He's a good player on a great team. Nothing more, nothing less.
I perosnally think Jackson has a more well-rounded game and is being seriously underrated because he happened to play on a bad team. Remember Hamilton was considered just slightly above average when he was on the horrible Wizards.

I get it!

We're talking about different Stephen Jackson's!

The Stephen Jackson I'm talking about played for Atlanta last season and is generally considered a mediocre defensive player.

Dukins
07-08-2004, 12:59 PM
Get over it JWont. People have it on their mind that no one cna compete with the almighty Rip. If we got Stephen Jackson it would definitely bean upgrade, but it wont get us over the hump. I believe what will get us over the hump is another center hopefully Harrison or if we got Dampier.

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 01:07 PM
I posted a poll at RealGM, right now SJ is winning 5-1 which I find surprising considering how overrated Rip has been lately.
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=253786
*update: Rip takes the lead at 6-5*

SkipperZ
07-08-2004, 01:38 PM
Honestly people here DO overvalue rip because a. he beat up on us in the playoffs and b. all the reggie comparisons during the playoffs.

Rip is not that great. Hes a very good player, solid, but not that great. Just like Jackson. I woudl definitely give the nod to rip, but jackson is not worlds away talent wise.

And jackson IS better defensively. Would you have played any defense if you were in a contract year on a terrible team, the rest of whom played no defense (after the theo trade) and knew the way to make money in teh offseason was to score? He still managed to find a way to avg 1.7-1.8 stls a game.

the only reason why rip is better than jackson in my opinion is because he is so good at coming of screens and will wear you down with it, and has possibly the second best midrange game for a guard in the league (after sam cassell). he is by far the more skilled offensive player. but jackson is bigger, stronger, a better 3 pt shooter, and a better defender. but he excels at nothing, which is why i woudl ratehr have rip.

and he's right, its debateable whether or not rip is a top 10 sg. if you include all the players that play sg on occasion, i dont think he makes it. if you consider only players that almost exclusively play sg, he does...

Tmac, ray allen, pierce, kobe, redd are already 5 sgs that are clearly better. thats not even counting combo guards and wing 3s like peja, wade, francis, lebron, richard jefferson, artest, and players that you could make a case for being better than rip (but probably arent) like reggie, maggette, vince, finley, eddie jones, joe johnson, etc...

Suaveness
07-08-2004, 01:56 PM
16-5 now :rolleyes:

Kstat
07-08-2004, 01:57 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Stephen Jackson......better than RIP HAMILTON?

This is right up there with Jwont's best lines.......that Dujuan Wagner is a better player than chauncey billups.......:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Let me guess, his next post will be about scot pollard being better than Ben Wallace........

Sometimes kids say the darnderst things, dont they?;)

Kid Minneapolis
07-08-2004, 02:02 PM
I agree with most, however I'll throw in this little tidbit:

I think Rip has seen his prime. This last year was as good as Rip can get. In other words, he's not going to improve much. I already feel Rip was playing beyond his expectations and I just don't see it going on forever. Sooner or later the league is gonna catch up and he'll be just another decent SG.

Rip is not physically gifted, he can't leap out of the gym, he's not as fast as everyone says (he just keeps running), and he's not very strong. So he has to make up for his physical limitations by just being a smart player and using what he's got to get it done. His one plus is that he has extraordinary endurance, which enables him to run forever. It's not that he's quick, it's just that he runs his opponent into the floor while he's still able to at least run.

He took one thing that no one else in the league is interested (midrange jumper) and used it to his advantage... everyone saw what Rip did this year, saw how he used it to his advantage, and they're gonna replicate it.

I respect Rip now. I didn't when he was with Washington. He wasn't the player then that he is now, and you can tell the difference is he just worked hard to perfect the fundamentals. His game isn't flashy, it's not game-changing --- it's just perfect fundamentals. It's a boring, disciplined, effective style. He doesn't hit circus shots and buzzer beaters --- his shots are all carefully-placed, work-hard-to-get-an-open-shot types... beat his man for the open layup. While his similarities to Reggie are many... he can't do one thing Reggie can, and that's "scare the crap out of you from 80 feet away", 'cause Reggie can hit a shot from just about anywhere on the court, with anyone on him, from any position or angle, when the clock is winding down.

I don't think Rip was the sole reason Detroit won. He was one piece of the puzzle. Detroit had a very good team and coach and gameplan. I like to think the biggest catalyst for the Pistons was Larry Brown... an excellent coach with much post-season experience that finally culminated in a championship. The larry brown on the pacers 8 years ago probably wouldn't have cut it. Coaches learn too.

I think S. Jackson is fully capable of having a similar impact on a team, if he finds the right situation. Rip wasn't exactly a happy camper in Washington. Rip found the right situation for him, and it resulted in success. It's all about finding the right situation.

Kstat
07-08-2004, 02:17 PM
think Rip has seen his prime. This last year was as good as Rip can get. In other words, he's not going to improve much.

um, so you think its physically impossible for rip to develop his 3-point shot?


Rip is not physically gifted

neither was reggie.....


he can't leap out of the gym

neither could reggie.....


So he has to make up for his physical limitations by just being a smart player and using what he's got to get it done.

so did Reg.....oh you get the idea. Man, the league SURE caught up to reggie fast, you know, because of all his "physical limitations" and everything.


He took one thing that no one else in the league is interested (midrange jumper) and used it to his advantage... everyone saw what Rip did this year, saw how he used it to his advantage, and they're gonna replicate it.

yep, every SG in the NBA will have a midrange game now.....they all saw Rip on their TVs making 15-footers from practicing on it for EIGHT YEARS, and every SG in the NBA is going to get a midrange game by snapping their fingers. Yep, its THAT easy.........:rolleyes:


His game isn't flashy, it's not game-changing

Yeah, his style didnt change game 5 of the ECF AT ALL.....:rolleyes:

so your basic point is that rip will never last ebcause he cant dunk from the FT line or do triple-clutch layups like Kobe....congratulations on watching too much sportscenter.....

and calling Rip's style "boring" is laughable....to someone that knows basketball, rip's style is not only unique but it is very interesting to watch, because he plays the game with his head. Its boring on NBA jam maybe, but not in real life.

Natston
07-08-2004, 02:22 PM
Hey Kstat, you can't deny the fact that Stephen Jackson is also stronger than Rip because SJ is taller... :laugh:

Unclebuck
07-08-2004, 02:52 PM
Wow, I can't believe Rip vs Jackson is worth debating.



Rip is without question a top 5 shooting guard.

Kobe is better without question. is T-Mac a shooting guard or small forward.

You have Ray Allen and Pierce, but I would put Rip in that class of player.

Keep in mind this is not a one-on-one contest

Jose Slaughter
07-08-2004, 02:53 PM
In 78 games last season Hamilton averaged 17.6 points on 45.5 FG%

Against the Hawks (Stephen Jackson), Hamilton played in 3 games & averaged 19.7 points on 54.3 FG%

Jackson started 78 of 80 games last season. In those games he averaged 18.0 points on 42.6 FG%

In 4 games against the Pistons (Rip Hamilton), Jackson averaged 16.3 points on 39.3 FG%

Hamilton's numbers went up against Jackson & Jackson's went down against Hamilton.

Not that I need this to know that Jackson is NOT a better defender than Hamilton.

Kid Minneapolis
07-08-2004, 03:06 PM
think Rip has seen his prime. This last year was as good as Rip can get. In other words, he's not going to improve much.

um, so you think its physically impossible for rip to develop his 3-point shot?


Rip is not physically gifted

neither was reggie.....


he can't leap out of the gym

neither could reggie.....


So he has to make up for his physical limitations by just being a smart player and using what he's got to get it done.

so did Reg.....oh you get the idea. Man, the league SURE caught up to reggie fast, you know, because of all his "physical limitations" and everything.


He took one thing that no one else in the league is interested (midrange jumper) and used it to his advantage... everyone saw what Rip did this year, saw how he used it to his advantage, and they're gonna replicate it.

yep, every SG in the NBA will have a midrange game now.....they all saw Rip on their TVs making 15-footers from practicing on it for EIGHT YEARS, and every SG in the NBA is going to get a midrange game by snapping their fingers. Yep, its THAT easy.........:rolleyes:


His game isn't flashy, it's not game-changing

Yeah, his style didnt change game 5 of the ECF AT ALL.....:rolleyes:

so your basic point is that rip will never last ebcause he cant dunk from the FT line or do triple-clutch layups like Kobe....congratulations on watching too much sportscenter.....

and calling Rip's style "boring" is laughable....to someone that knows basketball, rip's style is not only unique but it is very interesting to watch, because he plays the game with his head. Its boring on NBA jam maybe, but not in real life.

Kstat, respect ya and all, but damn yer a homer. It's not fun watching Rip, except to a Detroit fan. I can appreciate his style and his abilities, but I don't sit there in awe watching Rip.

Every point I made you managed to link to Reggie Miller when I only mentioned Reggie in a part of one paragraph. What I'm saying is Rip isn't gonig to improve much from his current abilities. It can be argued that Reggie really hasn't improved much in 10 years. It can be argued that Reggie was "caught up to", he never won a title, did he? Reggie, for all his heroics and strengths, also had his very poor games and weaknesses.

You don't think the mid-range shot will make a come back? You don't think 50 SGs in the league watched the playoffs from their couches and smacked their foreheads after realizing that the league has a giant void where the mid-range shot is supposed to be? It's not hard to develop a mid-range game.

I was looking at a much higher level when I said "game-changing". Not as in "single game" -- but as in "Rip changed the way people played basketball" a la Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Dr. J. Rip just executes and he's fundamentally sound, but he's not introducing any new dimension to the game. He's in fact been said to be "ripping off" Reggie's game... perhaps a good reason to call him "Rip." :D It's not like Rip is the first guy to have a mid-range game... Reggie doesn't get nearly the attention for this mid-range game over the past 10 years when he was just as good at it in his prime.. a 39-yo Reggie vs. a 25-yo Rip --- well who do you think is gonna look better???? Of course Rip tore up Reggie, he's 15 years younger.

I think Rip is a damned good player, and his play this last year was worthy of a championship. Just because I'm not on the guy's nutsack doesn't mean you should jump down my throat, lol.

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 03:09 PM
Rip has quickly become the most overrated player in the league. His playoff numbers (which people make out to be MJesque) were 21 & 4 :laugh:
He was a product of the Pistons system.
If Rip is so great then answer these questions:
Why are his numbers so medicore compared to the leagues other stars?
Why was he considered nothing special on the WIzards?
Why did he never lead the Wizards anywhere but the lottery?
Where was he vs New Jersey last year?

MSA2CF
07-08-2004, 03:10 PM
:bunny::lurk:

Kstat
07-08-2004, 03:14 PM
Every point I made you managed to link to Reggie Miller when I only mentioned Reggie in a part of one paragraph. What I'm saying is Rip isn't gonig to improve much from his current abilities. It can be argued that Reggie really hasn't improved much in 10 years. It can be argued that Reggie was "caught up to", he never won a title, did he? Reggie, for all his heroics and strengths, also had his very poor games and weaknesses.

No, you made it sound as if anyone could do what rip does, and everyone would pass him by, because Rip doesnt dunk from the FT line. Actually the opposite is true: fundamentals last longer in the NBA than people who rely on talent. Example A why Reggie has been starting since 1936.


It's not hard to develop a mid-range game

um, yes it is. It took Rip taking mid range pull-up jumpers every day for 7-8 years for him to get it right. Just because he makes it look easy doesnt mean it IS easy.


I was looking at a much higher level when I said "game-changing". Not as in "single game" -- but as in "Rip changed the way people played basketball" a la Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Dr. J. Rip just executes and he's fundamentally sound, but he's not introducing any new dimension to the game. He's in fact been said to be "ripping off" Reggie's game... perhaps a good reason to call him "Rip."

Um, so now your knock on him is that he's not Dr. J, Magic or Jordan?:confused:

Kstat
07-08-2004, 03:20 PM
He was a product of the Pistons system.

What is this, football?:laugh: Was rip in the run and shoot offense?

I'll let you in on a little secret: EVERY PLAYER'S STATS are a product of the system, since every team sets up its offense around its best players.


Why are his numbers so medicore compared to the leagues other stars?

You mean like Stephen Jackson?:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Why was he considered nothing special on the WIzards?

Why has every wizard since 1978 not been considered special? Rip missed half his games due to injury.


Why did he never lead the Wizards anywhere but the lottery?

Ask Michael Jordan that. Rip was never their leader to begin with.


Where was he vs New Jersey last year?

Averaging 25ppg. Where were you?

Kegboy
07-08-2004, 03:20 PM
Keep in mind this is not a one-on-one contest

Good, cause I can think of a whole lot more than 5 two-guards that could beat Rip one-on-one. Freddie, for instance. :cool:

Hamilton's a damn good player, better than Jackson has shown. But I don't see Rip doing any better with Atlanta's team last year than he did. :shrug:
---
I like shooting guards that can shoot.
:duel:

Kid Minneapolis
07-08-2004, 03:22 PM
But I never said "Rip isn't going to last", which you keep stating. I said "Rip is at his peak." Do you believe Rip can take it up another level?

I do think Stephen Jackson can still improve. Will it be enough to drive a team to a championship? Who knows? But I'm not saying he can't do it, and I think if he finds the right situation, anything can happen. If you had told me 2 years ago that Rip Hamilton would be the go-to guy on a Championship team for Detroit, I woulda laughed in yer face.

PacerMan
07-08-2004, 03:37 PM
[again. Stephen Jackson is everybit as good as Rip Hamilton, and is probably better when you look at thier overall games.


I don't agree with that at all


Yeah, that was pretty "out there."





It's F'ing looney. :laugh:

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 03:51 PM
What is this, football?:laugh: Was rip in the run and shoot offense?
I'll let you in on a little secret: EVERY PLAYER'S STATS are a product of the system, since every team sets up its offense around its best players.

You mean like Stephen Jackson?:laugh::laugh::laugh:
But noones claiming Stephen Jackson is a top-5 player at his position. He's a great role player, which is EXACTLY what Rip is.

Why has every wizard since 1978 not been considered special? Rip missed half his games due to injury.
Michael Jordan? Chris Webber. Juwan Howard. Moses Malone. Elvin Hayes. Bernard King. ALL considered very special players while with Washington. And Jeff Malone, Tom Gugliotta, Mitch Richmond, Rod Strickland are just a few of the Wizards players who were far better with the club than Hamilton was.

Ask Michael Jordan that. Rip was never their leader to begin with.
Rip wasn't man enough to step up and be teamleader. Or maybe it was just that Washongton relieze he was nowhere near good enough to ever be a team leader?
Averaging 25ppg. Where were you?
0-4. I don't recall where I was, but know wherever I was I wasn't being swept.

And whoever said RIp was a top-5 shooting guard is completely wrong. I'm assuming most of you who are praising Rip are only doing so to make the Pacers look better. Noone wants to lose to a 1-dimensional jumpshooter.

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 04:02 PM
If you had told me 2 years ago that Rip Hamilton would be the go-to guy on a Championship team for Detroit, I woulda laughed in yer face.

If you would've told me 4 years ago that Trent Dilfer & Brad Johnson were gonna be the starting QB's on 2 of the next 4 SuperBowl champions I woulda laughed in your face.
Defense wins championships.
The Rip Hamiltons/Trent Dilfers/Brad Johnsons of the world supply the neccesary offense, no matter how average it may be.

PacerMan
07-08-2004, 04:08 PM
Rip has quickly become the most overrated player in the league. His playoff numbers (which people make out to be MJesque) were 21 & 4 :laugh:
He was a product of the Pistons system.
If Rip is so great then answer these questions:
Why are his numbers so medicore compared to the leagues other stars?
Why was he considered nothing special on the WIzards?
Why did he never lead the Wizards anywhere but the lottery?
Where was he vs New Jersey last year?



He was impressive because the Pistons offense is so bad. ;)

J-Wont
07-08-2004, 04:38 PM
He's the mandatory offense riding the defensive wave. He's the NBAs version of Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson from a few years back.
Absolutely PERFECT way to describe Richard Hamilton.
The only one's who will deny this are the homer's and mental retards.