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jhondog28
06-18-2009, 02:08 PM
Who was the worst coach for the years 2000 to present?

jhondog28
06-18-2009, 02:11 PM
I was torn on this one. As far as winning percentages go this would be hard, but overall talent on the teams makes this more difficult. I just went with OBrien but I could easily have gone with anybody. I actually liked Carlisle the best out of all of them.

MillerTime
06-18-2009, 02:12 PM
Carlisle as actually good. Too bad our team just sucked that time

idioteque
06-18-2009, 02:22 PM
Anyone who thinks JOB is worse than IT must not have been around for the IT era.

For the talent he had, IT is the worst coach I can remember for the Pacers. A really great coach could have taken us really far those years.

duke dynamite
06-18-2009, 02:24 PM
Thomas hands down.

croz24
06-18-2009, 03:00 PM
Anyone who thinks JOB is worse than IT must not have been around for the IT era.

For the talent he had, IT is the worst coach I can remember for the Pacers. A really great coach could have taken us really far those years.

for the talent he had? he had a bunch of 20somethings playing the best basketball of their careers...ron artest, jo, tinsley, b miller, bender, harrington etc all had their best careers under thomas. do we forget that thomas inherited a pacers team that was supposed to be in rebuilding mode? yet thomas took them to the postseason all 3 years he was here. and nobody can blame thomas for the personal issues to the players that occured in year 3 that led to our demise.

duke dynamite
06-18-2009, 03:09 PM
for the talent he had? he had a bunch of 20somethings playing the best basketball of their careers...ron artest, jo, tinsley, b miller, bender, harrington etc all had their best careers under thomas. do we forget that thomas inherited a pacers team that was supposed to be in rebuilding mode? yet thomas took them to the postseason all 3 years he was here. and nobody can blame thomas for the personal issues to the players that occured in year 3 that led to our demise.

Those guys were left-overs. There was no demise, just stagnancy. They weren't great, they weren't bad.

croz24
06-18-2009, 03:24 PM
Those guys were left-overs. There was no demise, just stagnancy. They weren't great, they weren't bad.

artest, jo, tinsley, and b miller played on the finals team? news to me. harrington and bender didn't see really any time until thomas was coach.

ChicagoJ
06-18-2009, 03:30 PM
artest, jo, tinsley, and b miller played on the finals team? news to me. harrington and bender didn't see really any time until thomas was coach.

I could "almost" by sympathetic to this. But I think your previous post underestimates how badly Zeke's ego hurt the team for a long time. Jalen Rose single-handedly brought Zeke to Indy. And his reward? 1.5 seasons of public verbal abuse and then a trade. The lack of trust - and also enabling (Carlos Rogers, anyone?) - that began under Zeke was the foundation of Rick's problems (Rick could fix the oncourt x's and o's but couldn't fix the interpersonal problems and they eventually caught up to him.)

croz24
06-18-2009, 03:40 PM
i don't understand how job, who has done nothing for this team, is viewed as a better coach than somebody who helped shape and form a team that won 60+ games and nearly win an nba championship. zeke was a horrible coach at ny, yes, but the man developed our players and had guys playing with intensity. those pacers teams were much more fun to watch than the garbage job has put out.

duke dynamite
06-18-2009, 03:43 PM
I wasn't talking about the guys we got from the Chicago trade.

croz24
06-18-2009, 03:49 PM
I wasn't talking about the guys we got from the Chicago trade.

reggie and jalen were the only returning starter from the 90s teams that zeke inherited...even jalen had arguably his best season under zeke before he was traded.

duke dynamite
06-18-2009, 04:02 PM
reggie and jalen were the only returning starter from the 90s teams that zeke inherited...even jalen had arguably his best season under zeke before he was traded.

Okay, I give up. You're smart...I'm dumb. :cry:

Lance George
06-18-2009, 04:14 PM
for the talent he had? he had a bunch of 20somethings playing the best basketball of their careers...ron artest, jo, tinsley, b miller, bender, harrington etc all had their best careers under thomas. do we forget that thomas inherited a pacers team that was supposed to be in rebuilding mode? yet thomas took them to the postseason all 3 years he was here. and nobody can blame thomas for the personal issues to the players that occured in year 3 that led to our demise.

Rick Carlisle took the same talent, sans All-Star center Brad Miller, to the Eastern Conference Finals in his first season. That same team that Isiah couldn't get out of the first round of the playoffs. So while I applaud Isiah for getting a young team to the playoffs on two occasions (post-Chicago trade), the talent level was very high. His first season he had arguably the two best players from the previous season's Finals team returning (Reggie and Rose) which, combined with a few mediocre vets, was enough to put together a mediocre .500 season.

I'd rank O'Brien's 36-win season last year more impressive than Isiah's 48-win season with three current or soon-to-be All-Stars (J.O., Artest, and Brad Miller). Not to mention Reggie was still one of the league's most efficient scorers.

croz24
06-18-2009, 04:17 PM
the talent level was high for carlisle because thomas DEVELOPED it

jhondog28
06-18-2009, 04:18 PM
i don't understand how job, who has done nothing for this team, is viewed as a better coach than somebody who helped shape and form a team that won 60+ games and nearly win an nba championship. zeke was a horrible coach at ny, yes, but the man developed our players and had guys playing with intensity. those pacers teams were much more fun to watch than the garbage job has put out.

God help us all i actually agree with Croz. I do not think JOB has been a bad coach with what he has adopted but there is no way you can call a coach successful when he has never taken his team to the playoffs even once. A lot of people could argue that JOB's system will never be successful. While Thomas did his job and won games while he was here whether it had to do with having more talent or not.

Mr_Smith
06-18-2009, 04:19 PM
Gotta go with Isaiah Thomas hands down. Couldn't get us out of the first round. Thats what stands out to me.

ChicagoJ
06-18-2009, 04:23 PM
I think Thomas should get some credit for the player development that took place when he was here. JO, Jalen, Al, Tinsley, Brad, etc. all played quite well for him - some of the best seasons of their careers.

But he was sooooo terrible at game time coaching. The "Quick"? Come on. He couldn't just run out of timeouts in a playoff game (bad enough) but he took Reggie out of the game in the last twenty second (during Celtics FTs) with no timeouts - putting Foster in to rebound - AND THEN he discovered that we couldn't stop the clock to get Reggie back into the game. Oops.

And a certain amount of his success was from mixing gasoline and lighter fluid. You get a big bang when you do that. You also get scorched.

jhondog28
06-18-2009, 04:30 PM
Oh come on Duke what has happened to all your sunshine? It is normally a welcoming presence on this board.

duke dynamite
06-18-2009, 04:32 PM
Oh come on Duke what has happened to all your sunshine? It is normally a welcoming presence on this board.

I just had to stand up and do my happy dance. I do not look forward to doing it again today...

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c276/tlaurenzana/8a.gif

Trophy
06-18-2009, 04:35 PM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2007/12/19/alg_knicks_fan.jpg

ISIAH THOMAS!

jhondog28
06-18-2009, 04:39 PM
Really? Did I black out the 2002, 2003, and 2005 seasons when he was in the playoffs? Once the ECF, another the semis?

I only follow the Pacers so before he got here I did not pay attention. :o

Hicks
06-18-2009, 04:48 PM
Really? Did I black out the 2002, 2003, and 2005 seasons when he was in the playoffs? Once the ECF, another the semis?

I apologize for this. I struck a tone I don't like others to take with me, so I shouldn't be using it myself.

But O'Brien was in the playoffs three times before coming here. Unless someone can explain to me how he could become worse now than he was then, I have to assume the lack of playoffs is the roster he's dealing with.

Honestly, I think this year's team would have been in the playoffs if Mike hadn't been out. I really do. I know not everyone agrees with that.

duke dynamite
06-18-2009, 04:51 PM
I apologize for this. I struck a tone I don't like others to take with me, so I shouldn't be using it myself.

But O'Brien was in the playoffs three times before coming here. Unless someone can explain to me how he could become worse now than he was then, I have to assume the lack of playoffs is the roster he's dealing with.

Honestly, I think this year's team would have been in the playoffs if Mike hadn't been out. I really do. I know not everyone agrees with that.

Forgiven...lol

Yeah, I agree. Mike really did some damage (not just to himself) when he came back for those 18 games.

count55
06-18-2009, 04:51 PM
There are more, but here's some fun stuff from Bill Simmons...circa 2002:


4. "So it got me to thinking --"
"Really, you're thinking now? That's big."
To Isiah Thomas ... it was tough for you to top last year's abominable coaching performance, but you actually managed to pull it off. How could the Pacers possibly miss the playoffs in the watered-down East with that much talent? How could a team with this many quality players play so listlessly and ineffectively together? How could a team blow this many big leads? It's almost impossible. Keep changing the players, Isiah -- it must be their fault.

(My favorite Isiah moment: When they blew an 18-point second-half lead against the Celts two weeks ago, Isiah kept Brad Miller on the bench for the entire fourth quarter, even though Miller kills the C's and Boston was playing Rodney Rogers at center. You would have thought Isiah had money on the C's. How does he not get fired this summer? How? What more does he have to do? He even did a better job running the CBA, and the league went bankrupt.)

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020411

jhondog28
06-18-2009, 04:52 PM
I apologize for this. I struck a tone I don't like others to take with me, so I shouldn't be using it myself.

But O'Brien was in the playoffs three times before coming here. Unless someone can explain to me how he could become worse now than he was then, I have to assume the lack of playoffs is the roster he's dealing with.

Honestly, I think this year's team would have been in the playoffs if Mike hadn't been out. I really do. I know not everyone agrees with that.

I actually agree with your opinion on Mike and the playoffs but before this thread goes off on that tangent my original point is I do not hate OB in fact i like what he has done with this team, but I find some of his X and Os on the court and some of his late game decision making not up to par with the other options if I was to rank them i would have the 1. Carlisle 2. Bird 3. Thomas and 3b. OB

ChicagoJ
06-18-2009, 04:54 PM
If you couldn't see JO's development from 2001-02 (first time starter) to 2002-03 to 2003-04 (best player in the E.C.) then I don't know what else to say. Maybe it had more to do with Tree Rollins or Mark Aguire than Zeke.

Our players developed individually. The knock would be that the team didn't improve much in spite of individual player improvements. And of course the in-game fiascos.

Isiah was very bad overall, but he did a few things right. As I said, only the Pacers could actually have two coaches in history worse than Isiah because neither Irvine nor Versace ever did anything right.

jhondog28
06-18-2009, 04:55 PM
If you couldn't see JO's development from 2001-02 (first time starter) to 2002-03 to 2003-04 (best player in the E.C.) then I don't know what else to say. Maybe it had more to do with Tree Rollins or Mark Aguire than Zeke.

Our players developed individually. The knock would be that the team didn't improve much in spite of individual player improvements. And of course the in-game fiascos.

Isiah was very bad overall, but he did a few things right. As I said, only the Pacers could actually have two coaches in history worse than Isiah because neither Irvine nor Versace ever did anything right.

I just have to laugh everytime QTip heads name is mentioned because it was humorously bad

Hicks
06-18-2009, 04:58 PM
The best things Isiah did were telling JO to work on being a better man before worrying about being a better player and geting O'Neal working with Mark Aguire.

Trophy
06-18-2009, 05:06 PM
The best things Isiah did were telling JO to work on being a better man before worrying about being a better player and geting O'Neal working with Mark Aguire.

I think it was 2 years ago JO wanted to be traded to the Knicks so he can play for Isiah again.

ABADays
06-18-2009, 05:15 PM
Duke

Was Hicks thanking you for being dumb? I'm confused :confused:

;)

Hicks
06-18-2009, 05:24 PM
Duke

Was Hicks thanking you for being dumb? I'm confused :confused:

;)

I like to think the thanks had layers. :D

idioteque
06-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Like others have said, IT was a terrible, terrible in-game coach.

And I don't buy into the notion that IT did an amazing job developing our guys, either. What would be your method of even evaluating that? It is an easy thing to make up but not an easy thing to back up in any way. If you were not in the locker room during the IT years there is no way to tell. That surely cannot be illustrated statistically.

IT was King Midas in reverse. Everything he has ever touched has turned to ****.

duke dynamite
06-18-2009, 06:25 PM
Duke

Was Hicks thanking you for being dumb? I'm confused :confused:

;)


I like to think the thanks had layers. :D
I think it's because I could've taken that a lot further than I did. I exhibited restraint. It's fun actually, especially when I do my happy dance.

grace
06-18-2009, 08:04 PM
i don't understand how job, who has done nothing for this team, is viewed as a better coach than somebody who helped shape and form a team that won 60+ games and nearly win an nba championship. zeke was a horrible coach at ny, yes, but the man developed our players and had guys playing with intensity. those pacers teams were much more fun to watch than the garbage job has put out.

I wasn't going to vote, but now you've proved that I'm not the only one who doesn't think Isiah is the devil incarnate. :thankyou:

rexnom
06-18-2009, 09:04 PM
I hate this thread for making me think about the 2002-2003 season.

madison
06-18-2009, 09:30 PM
I WAS around in the IT era, and yes, JOB is the worst. He plays no defense and chucks up ill-advised 3's like rebounds don't matter. Come to think of it, rebounds don't matter to him one whit. He plays rooks mostly when there's no one else so development time of our young players is extended, and on a team that doesn't make the playoffs anyway. He's been fired twice. The only reason he's with the Pacers is a good coach doesn't won't work for LB. Oh, yes, and he's cheap as NBA coaches go so he appeals to a front office that thinks that winning is a secondary objective. New subject, has ANY former Boston player ever been a successful GM, ANY place? Ever? Just wondering.

count55
06-18-2009, 09:34 PM
New subject, has ANY former Boston player been a successful GM, ANY place? Ever? Just wondering.

So, does winning the 2008 NBA Championship count as successful?

Trophy
06-18-2009, 09:37 PM
I WAS around in the IT era, and yes, JOB is the worst. He plays no defense and chucks up ill-advised 3's like rebounds don't matter. Come to think of it, rebounds don't matter to him one whit. He plays rooks mostly when there's no one else so development time of our young players is extended, and on a team that doesn't make the playoffs anyway. He's been fired twice. The only reason he's with the Pacers is a good coach doesn't won't work for LB. Oh, yes, and he's cheap as NBA coaches go so he appeals to a front office that thinks that winning is a secondary objective. New subject, has ANY former Boston player ever been a successful GM, ANY place? Ever? Just wondering.

He's an offensive coach. That's what he's known for. I see what you're saying about him not being a defensive coach really, but I wouldn't say he's worse than Isiah.

We need to make this a good summer player wise and maybe Dick Harter should retire and O'Brien adds someone else who is defensive minded.

madison
06-18-2009, 09:37 PM
Of course. Are we talking about Danny? Then yes, one.

rexnom
06-18-2009, 09:45 PM
I WAS around in the IT era, and yes, JOB is the worst. He plays no defense and chucks up ill-advised 3's like rebounds don't matter. Come to think of it, rebounds don't matter to him one whit. He plays rooks mostly when there's no one else so development time of our young players is extended, and on a team that doesn't make the playoffs anyway. He's been fired twice. The only reason he's with the Pacers is a good coach doesn't won't work for LB. Oh, yes, and he's cheap as NBA coaches go so he appeals to a front office that thinks that winning is a secondary objective. New subject, has ANY former Boston player ever been a successful GM, ANY place? Ever? Just wondering.
False. He wasn't fired from Boston, he resigned because Danny Ainge basically decided to rebuild from the from very beginning (and tank the season in the process).

As for his Philly years, I love this little tidbit from Obie's wiki page:
"Previously, O'Brien was the head coach of the Philadelphia 76ers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_76ers) during the 2004-05 NBA season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004-05_NBA_season). The 76ers made the playoffs in his one season as coach after missing the postseason the previous year, and although O'Brien had a multiyear contract, he was fired because general manager Billy King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_King) wanted to hire Maurice Cheeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Cheeks) as head coach after Cheeks was fired by the Portland Trail Blazers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Trail_Blazers).<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference"></sup>The Sixers did not make the playoffs again until 2008."

I still remember Obie coaching circles around Isiah in 2003 despite, as Bill Simmons has put it, having only 2 of the top 7 guys.

(No, seriously, take a look at those rosters - they started the always lovable Antoine Walker, the then-immature Paul Pierce and three guys that wouldn't have played at all in the 2009 Finals: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200304190IND.html).

To make things worse, they were swept in the second round by a NJ team far less talented than our Pacer team. The difference was, of course, that the Celtics' first round opponent (our Pacers) were being coached by an absolute idiot.

BlueNGold
06-18-2009, 09:55 PM
I'm just thankful Zeke's tenure was relatively short and that he had the opportunity to destroy the Knicks. As for JOb, I don't care for his style either...but with our talent level so low it's hard to measure him against Zeke.

I don't recall much of "the quick", but I do wonder if it's similar to JOb's strategy...because neither Zeke nor JOb appeal to me.

idioteque
06-18-2009, 10:34 PM
The 2002-2003 Indiana Pacers should have at least made the ECF, and probably should have represented the East in the NBA Finals that year.

A team that was often starting Walter McCarty and Tony Delk and had no bench whatsoever had no business beating Artest/Reggie/JO/Brad Miller/Harrington. That series was absolutely painful to watch and most of the blame should be placed on IT. Absolutely pathetic and inexcusable.

JOB kicked our *** in that series.

idioteque
06-18-2009, 10:41 PM
Come to think of it, rebounds don't matter to him one whit.

Rebounds don't matter, yet the Pacers were second in the league in rebounds this year. :rolleyes:

croz24
06-18-2009, 10:50 PM
Like others have said, IT was a terrible, terrible in-game coach.

And I don't buy into the notion that IT did an amazing job developing our guys, either. What would be your method of even evaluating that? It is an easy thing to make up but not an easy thing to back up in any way. If you were not in the locker room during the IT years there is no way to tell. That surely cannot be illustrated statistically.

IT was King Midas in reverse. Everything he has ever touched has turned to ****.

terrible in-game coach, possibly. he did make some very dumb late-game decisions, but his style was conducive to winning. how do we gauged thomas' ability to develop talent? by realizing just about every player while playing for thomas, had career years under him. the numbers don't lie.

croz24
06-18-2009, 10:51 PM
The 2002-2003 Indiana Pacers should have at least made the ECF, and probably should have represented the East in the NBA Finals that year.

A team that was often starting Walter McCarty and Tony Delk and had no bench whatsoever had no business beating Artest/Reggie/JO/Brad Miller/Harrington. That series was absolutely painful to watch and most of the blame should be placed on IT. Absolutely pathetic and inexcusable.

JOB kicked our *** in that series.

maybe they should have, but why does everybody overlook the personal issues that took place to our players that year?

idioteque
06-18-2009, 10:57 PM
by realizing just about every player while playing for thomas, had career years under him. the numbers don't lie.

I'm sorry, but unless you're talking about reserve players, I don't see this.

Brad Miller's best years statistically were his first two years in Sacramento.

Ron Artest's best year statistically was in 2003-2004, RC's first year.

Reggie Miller started to regress strongly during the IT era but I attribute that more to his age than IT or anything else.

JO improved under IT but his "career year" was 2004-2005 under RC. His last year under IT was roughly similar to RC's first year, the year before the brawl.

Tinsley's two best seasons statistically were under RC.

Al Harrington's "career year" was when he played for Atlanta.

cinotimz
06-19-2009, 12:21 AM
I saw this and thought it was some sort of trick. Never has a Pacer coach done less with more than IT. He has to rank at or near the top of worst ever in Pacers history(not just since 2000) alongside guys like Versace and Irvine.