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jhondog28
06-15-2009, 10:04 PM
Just wondering if you could name the worst starting 5 Pacers players of all time who would they be? Worst being characterized by talent not off the court demeanor. The players must have been starters at one time not role players. Just wanting to hear you guys opinions

ChicagoJ
06-15-2009, 10:16 PM
Gotta be an early-80s combination. Something like the un-watchable...

G - Jerry Sichting
G - Terrence Stansbury
F - Bill Garnett
F - Herb Williams
C - Tom Owens

If Bill Garnett didn't start enough games, you can add Russ Schoene.

Kaufman
06-15-2009, 10:27 PM
a good question but a lot of us probably can't name the starting five of any team before say 1990 for the pacers, just from an age standpoint. It might be interesting to look at individual seasonal starters? Then would think of guys like pooh Richardson or duane ferrell, and those types of players.

jhondog28
06-15-2009, 10:29 PM
Wondering if you might think David harrison might make the list. I remember him as kind of a bust at least from the Pacers I have seen.

PR07
06-15-2009, 10:31 PM
Michael Curry has got to make the team.

vnzla81
06-15-2009, 10:33 PM
Rasho and Harrison are in for sure.

jhondog28
06-15-2009, 10:36 PM
sO WE HAVE RASHO AT THE 5 AND HARRISON AT THE 4....SO NOW WE HAVE TO FILL THE 1,2, AND 3...Possibly Flip?

cdash
06-15-2009, 10:37 PM
I'm sure we've had worse players over the years than Rasho Nesterovic...

Kegboy
06-15-2009, 10:37 PM
Michael Curry has got to make the team.

Seconded. God that was brutal.

Kegboy
06-15-2009, 10:38 PM
I'm sure we've had worse players over the years than Rasho Nesterovic...

Yep, Rasho would have been the best player on some of those 80's teams.

jhondog28
06-15-2009, 10:40 PM
Yea I guess I probably should have found a better way to ask this question, probably by a poll or somehting but I could not think of a way to do it.

Jose Slaughter
06-15-2009, 10:46 PM
J

I'd raplace Sichting with Sidney Lowe & Owens with either Stuart Gray or Greg Drieling.

I agree Stansbury needs to make that list.

jhondog28
06-15-2009, 10:56 PM
I just searched the topic and noticed Bender's name popped up a lot.

ChicagoJ
06-15-2009, 11:12 PM
When did Bender start? How many games did Michael Curry really start? Same for Harrison... Ferrell didn't start more than a total of five games.

ChicagoJ
06-15-2009, 11:16 PM
J

I'd raplace Sichting with Sidney Lowe & Owens with either Stuart Gray or Greg Drieling.

I agree Stansbury needs to make that list.

Sindey Lowe was bad, but how much did he start in his one season with the Pacers (as a rookie). I don't recall, that's why I went with Jerry.

I strongly considered Dreiling, but not only was Tom Owens bad, but he cost us an important draft pick. So that was a double-whammy. Stuart Grey was always third-team behind Stipo (then Smits) and Dreiling, so I don't think he started enough games to merit this list.

A guy my Dad coached with for years came back from MSA one night and said, "I watched Stuart Grey get a triple double." Two minutes, two fouls, two missed shots." 2, 2, (0-)2. And that was probably the best game of his career.

Jose Slaughter
06-15-2009, 11:31 PM
You were right about Lowe. He started just 2 of 78 games.

maragin
06-15-2009, 11:36 PM
G - Jerry Sichting
G - Terrence Stansbury
F - Bill Garnett
F - Herb Williams
C - Tom Owens


No way does Herb Williams make the worst ever list. Every year of his 7.5 seasons with us he averaged double figures, got rebounds, stayed healthy, and is third all time in blocked shots. In '85 he went for 19.9 with 9.1 rebounds and 2.4 blocks a game.

I don't have time right now to do research on our worst starting set ever, but I'll look into it later.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willihe01.html

<table class="sortable stats_table" id="per_game"><thead><tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class=""><th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip sort_default_asc" align="left">Season</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip sort_default_asc" align="right">Age</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Team')" align="left">Tm</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('League')" align="left">Lg</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games')" align="right">G</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games Started')" align="right">GS</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Minutes Played Per Game')" align="right">MP</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Field Goals Per Game')" align="right">FG</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Field Goal Attempts Per Game')" align="right">FGA</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Field Goal Percentage')" align="right">FG%</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('3-Point Field Goals Per Game')" align="right">3P</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('3-Point Field Goal Attempts Per Game')" align="right">3PA</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('3-Point Field Goal Percentage')" align="right">3P%</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Free Throws Per Game')" align="right">FT</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Free Throw Attempts Per Game')" align="right">FTA</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Free Throw Percentage')" align="right">FT%</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Offensive Rebounds Per Game')" align="right">ORB</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Defensive Rebounds Per Game')" align="right">DRB</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Total Rebounds Per Game')" align="right">TRB</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Assists Per Game')" align="right">AST</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Steals Per Game')" align="right">STL</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Blocks Per Game')" align="right">BLK</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Turnovers Per Game')" align="right">TOV</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Personal Fouls Per Game')" align="right">PF</th> <th onclick="showText(document.getElementById('per_game'), 'Partial Seasons')" class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Points Per Game')" align="right">PTS</th> </tr> </thead> <tbody> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1981-82</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1982.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1982.html)</td> <td align="right">82</td> <td align="right">75</td> <td align="right">27.8</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">10.4</td> <td align="right">.477</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.286</td> <td align="right">1.5</td> <td align="right">2.3</td> <td align="right">.670</td> <td align="right">2.1</td> <td align="right">5.2</td> <td align="right">7.4</td> <td align="right">1.7</td> <td align="right">0.6</td> <td align="right">2.2</td> <td align="right">1.7</td> <td align="right">2.4</td> <td align="right">11.5</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1982-83</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1983.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1983.html)</td> <td align="right">78</td> <td align="right">74</td> <td align="right">32.2</td> <td align="right">7.4</td> <td align="right">14.9</td> <td align="right">.499</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.000</td> <td align="right">2.0</td> <td align="right">2.8</td> <td align="right">.705</td> <td align="right">1.9</td> <td align="right">5.5</td> <td align="right">7.5</td> <td align="right">3.4</td> <td align="right">0.7</td> <td align="right">2.2</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">16.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1983-84</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1984.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1984.html)</td> <td align="right">69</td> <td align="right">53</td> <td align="right">33.0</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> <td align="right">12.5</td> <td align="right">.478</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.000</td> <td align="right">3.0</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">.702</td> <td align="right">2.2</td> <td align="right">5.8</td> <td align="right">8.0</td> <td align="right">3.1</td> <td align="right">0.9</td> <td align="right">1.6</td> <td align="right">3.0</td> <td align="right">2.8</td> <td align="right">14.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1984-85</td> <td align="right">26</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1985.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1985.html)</td> <td align="right">75</td> <td align="right">70</td> <td align="right">34.1</td> <td align="right">7.7</td> <td align="right">16.1</td> <td align="right">.475</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.111</td> <td align="right">3.0</td> <td align="right">4.5</td> <td align="right">.657</td> <td align="right">2.1</td> <td align="right">6.4</td> <td align="right">8.5</td> <td align="right">3.4</td> <td align="right">0.7</td> <td align="right">1.8</td> <td align="right">3.5</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">18.3</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1985-86</td> <td align="right">27</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1986.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1986.html)</td> <td align="right">78</td> <td align="right">74</td> <td align="right">35.5</td> <td align="right">8.0</td> <td align="right">16.3</td> <td align="right">.492</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.2</td> <td align="right">.083</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">5.2</td> <td align="right">.730</td> <td align="right">2.2</td> <td align="right">6.9</td> <td align="right">9.1</td> <td align="right">2.2</td> <td align="right">0.6</td> <td align="right">2.4</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">3.1</td> <td align="right">19.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1986-87</td> <td align="right">28</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1987.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1987.html)</td> <td align="right">74</td> <td align="right">67</td> <td align="right">34.1</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">12.7</td> <td align="right">.480</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.000</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">3.6</td> <td align="right">.740</td> <td align="right">1.9</td> <td align="right">5.4</td> <td align="right">7.3</td> <td align="right">2.4</td> <td align="right">0.8</td> <td align="right">1.3</td> <td align="right">2.0</td> <td align="right">3.4</td> <td align="right">14.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1987-88</td> <td align="right">29</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1988.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1988.html)</td> <td align="right">75</td> <td align="right">37</td> <td align="right">26.2</td> <td align="right">4.1</td> <td align="right">9.8</td> <td align="right">.425</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.000</td> <td align="right">1.7</td> <td align="right">2.3</td> <td align="right">.737</td> <td align="right">1.5</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> <td align="right">6.3</td> <td align="right">1.3</td> <td align="right">0.5</td> <td align="right">1.9</td> <td align="right">1.6</td> <td align="right">3.3</td> <td align="right">10.0</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1988-89</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="left">TOT</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html)</td> <td align="right">76</td> <td align="right">66</td> <td align="right">32.5</td> <td align="right">4.2</td> <td align="right">9.7</td> <td align="right">.436</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.000</td> <td align="right">1.8</td> <td align="right">2.6</td> <td align="right">.686</td> <td align="right">1.8</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> <td align="right">7.8</td> <td align="right">1.6</td> <td align="right">0.6</td> <td align="right">1.8</td> <td align="right">2.0</td> <td align="right">3.1</td> <td align="right">10.2</td> </tr> <tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="partial_table"> <td align="left">1988-89</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="left">IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1989.html)</td> <td align="left">NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html)</td> <td align="right">46</td> <td align="right">46</td> <td align="right">34.1</td> <td align="right">5.3</td> <td align="right">11.8</td> <td align="right">.450</td> <td align="right">0.0</td> <td align="right">0.1</td> <td align="right">.000</td> <td align="right">2.0</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">.714</td> <td align="right">1.9</td> <td align="right">6.7</td> <td align="right">8.6</td> <td align="right">1.9</td> <td align="right">0.7</td> <td align="right">1.7</td> <td align="right">2.3</td> <td align="right">3.4</td> <td align="right">12.6</td></tr></tbody></table>

cinotimz
06-15-2009, 11:48 PM
No way does Herb Williams make the worst ever list. Every year of his 7.5 seasons with us he averaged double figures, got rebounds, stayed healthy, and is third all time in blocked shots. In '85 he went for 19.9 with 9.1 rebounds and 2.4 blocks a game.



Agreed. No way in hell Herb Williams can be on that list. He was arguably the best player the Pacers had for a number of years. Now granted those were very lean years, but no where close to one of the worst starters of all time.

First Manu over Kobe and now this?

Hmmmm...

As for the list itself, I would think about guys like Jim Thomas, Butch Carter, and Clint Richardson

croz24
06-15-2009, 11:56 PM
john edwards

ChicagoJ
06-15-2009, 11:57 PM
Yes he was. The fact that he was starting, and allegedly our best player, tells you just how bad that team was.

Besides, name a worse starting PF the Pacers have had. I can't.

Big Mac? Nope.
Roundfield? Nope.
Big Mac again? Maybe, at that stage of his career.
Tank Thompson? Nope.
Dale? Nope.
JO? Nope.
Murphy/ Foster? Maybe. That would be fun. Pick one of those two guys!!

Nope... all worse.

Slick Pinkham
06-15-2009, 11:57 PM
basketball reference.com has "games started" data back to 1981-1982.

Using arbitrary criteria of starting >20 games in a season, I'd go with

C Tom Owens (40 starts in 81-82)
PF Clemon Johnson (42 starts in 81-82)
SF Ron Anderson (27 starts in 85-86)
SG Tony Brown (26 starts in 84-85, rookie 4th round draft pick)
PG John Duren (24 starts in 83-84, 2.4 assists per game, boy was Vern needed in the following draft!)

honorable mention: Greg Dreiling, 42 starts in 90-91

Pacerized
06-16-2009, 12:00 AM
Just a few that come to mind.

Pooh Richardson
Greg Dreiling (I think the started at Center for a while after Stepo)
Lasalle Thompson

Dr. Goldfoot
06-16-2009, 12:08 AM
Judging by players who started at least 41 games in a particular season.....I put these names out there for consideration.

Jim Thomas
Butch Carter
Louis Orr
George Johnson
Greg Dreiling

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 12:12 AM
Agreed. No way in hell Herb Williams can be on that list. He was arguably the best player the Pacers had for a number of years. Now granted those were very lean years, but no where close to one of the worst starters of all time.

First Manu over Kobe and now this?

Hmmmm...

As for the list itself, I would think about guys like Jim Thomas, Butch Carter, and Clint Richardson

The first two, okay. Not sure Jim Thomas even started 20 games in his career though. Butch Carter might get the nod if Stansbury weren't so damn terrible. Clint Richardson was a 20+ mpg player on the great '83 Sixers team, and was a solid backup for Vern and John Long in a three-guard set (just as he was a solid backup to the Mo Cheeks/ Andrew Toney backcourt.) I'm pretty sure Stansbury started most of the 85-86 season over Richardson, and in hindsight that was probably pretty dumb.

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 12:16 AM
Judging by players who started at least 41 games in a particular season.....I put these names out there for consideration.

Jim Thomas
Butch Carter
Louis Orr
George Johnson
Greg Dreiling

Would not agree on Louis Orr or George Johnson. They played key roles on the '80-81 playoff team. When Louis went to the Knicks as a FA (or was he "sold" for cash??) that was a big loss for the Pacers of that era.

Slick Pinkham
06-16-2009, 12:23 AM
I wanted to pick Stansbury, but he never started 20 games in any one season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stanste01.html


to see starts for ever Pacer team, use
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1982.html

and type in any other year in place of 1982 in the url

imawhat
06-16-2009, 12:24 AM
Fred Jones
Eddie Gill
James Jones
Austin Croshere
David Harrison.


And later on...
Marcus Haislip
Britton Johnsen
Tremaine Fowlkes

Naptown_Seth
06-16-2009, 03:24 AM
I not only put Dreiling in my starters, I make him a captain.

I understand the Owens logic Jay, but I guess I saw more Greg and that "movement" and "set of skills" is burned into my brain.

The fact that he was a starter on teams that were better than teams that Herb started on shocks me.


Pooh ticks me off cause it cost us Michael Williams, but flop as he was he was functional at least.

Drewtone
06-16-2009, 07:56 AM
I not only put Dreiling in my starters, I make him a captain.

I understand the Owens logic Jay, but I guess I saw more Greg and that "movement" and "set of skills" is burned into my brain.

The fact that he was a starter on teams that were better than teams that Herb started on shocks me.


Pooh ticks me off cause it cost us Michael Williams, but flop as he was he was functional at least.


I have to give Dreiling a pass, if for no other reason than the fact that he hit a 'three' at the end of the Starks-Reggie headbutt playoff game. It was just such a perfect 'F-You' to the Knicks to end the game with a Dreiling 3-pointer.

Also, thing about Pooh, he cost us Williams (though I'd say the locker room value of Sam from that trade was underrated... he put Reggie into the sleeper for god's sake)... Brown/Donnie did parlay him into Mark Jackson.

scar
06-16-2009, 08:33 AM
Zan Tabak. I got the oppertunity to play AAU ball (for Marion) against Indianapolis. After our game, we got to sit courtside and watch the players that came in early work out. Zan Tabak and Chris Mullen were there, and Steve Nash was there (for the Mavericks).

Tabak was working with David Craig, and I recall thinking that at the age of 13 I felt I could take him in 1-on-1. He missed so many shots, warming up, that I just couldn't fathom any way that he was in the NBA other than his overall size. He started for the Pacers back when the Pacers faced the Sixers in the first round and lost, when the Sixers went to the Finals. I think it was 2001. Tabak was our starting center, and I think that was his last year in the NBA.

naptownmenace
06-16-2009, 09:22 AM
PG - Pooh Richardson
SG - John Long
SF - Duane Ferrell
PF - Marcus Haislip
C - Granville Waiters


I despised the way Pooh Richardson played and was down on him the moment he put on a Pacers uni, especially since he was traded for my two favorite players at the time - Chuck Person and Michael Williams. We also got Sam Mitchell in that trade but Donnie Walsh got taken to the cleaners on this deal.

Kegboy
06-16-2009, 09:29 AM
Just a few that come to mind.

Pooh Richardson
Greg Dreiling (I think the started at Center for a while after Stepo)
Lasalle Thompson

:banned:

Slick Pinkham
06-16-2009, 10:19 AM
Some of the choices people are making, like Granville Waiters, Zan Tabak, Haislip, Johnson, Ferrell, Fowlkes. etc. were absolutely awful players but when you look up the stats they never started more than a game or two here and there when about 3 people ahead of them were all injured at once.

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 10:40 AM
I've got to apologize. When Tom was talking about "GS" stats at basketball-reference.com, I was thinking "what the hell is he talking about."

I guess there is a difference between www.basketballreference.com (http://www.basketballreference.com) and www.basketball-reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com). :blush:

Stansbury and Garnett did not really start enough games. We did trade a future (1990) #1 for those two guys, so at least one of them should have been good enough to start on a 22-win team. That's how bad we were in those days, folks. We gave up a future (1990) #1 in OCTOBER 1984 and both guys we got in the trade were out of the leauge by 1987.

Removing Stansbury and Garnett leaves me with this:

PG - Sichting
SG - Richardson
SF - Kellogg
PF - Williams
C - Tom Owens

naptownmenace
06-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Some of the choices people are making, like Granville Waiters, Zan Tabak, Haislip, Johnson, Ferrell, Fowlkes. etc. were absolutely awful players but when you look up the stats they never started more than a game or two here and there when about 3 people ahead of them were all injured at once.


You made a good point. I just remember watching those guys start for the Pacers and they were so terrible that it seemed like they started more often than they actually did. I'll revise my list.

PG - Pooh Richardson
SG - John Long
SF - George McCloud (started 21 games in '92-93)
PF - Clemon Johnson (started 42 games in '81-82)
C - Greg Dreiling

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 10:55 AM
John Long??? Really??

He averaged 15 points, 3 assists and one steal per game while starting on a playoff team, and he's our all-time worst starting SG?

Slick Pinkham
06-16-2009, 11:05 AM
Jay, I know you don't like Clark Kellogg and his stats got inflated due to team awfulness, but a guy who puts up a 20-10 season even once is not that bad.

The 1984-1985 SG rotation of Jim Thomas/ Tony Brown/Terrance Stansbury deserves special mention if you like "shooting guards that can shoot". They were a combined 12-for-73 from the 3-point line, 16%. Tony Brown was 0-for-the-season, as was Vern at PG (who actually played often along with Sichting in a 2 PG set, since Vern had size to guard twos)!

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1985.html

naptownmenace
06-16-2009, 11:29 AM
John Long??? Really??

He averaged 15 points, 3 assists and one steal per game while starting on a playoff team, and he's our all-time worst starting SG?

I liked John and his 20-foot bank shots but he's the only other SG I remember who was a starter for the Pacers. Terrence Stansbury never started enough games to be considered a starter. The same goes for Ron Anderson.

Reggie's 18 years sheilded the Pacers from a lot of sucky SG play but even before then it seems that SG has been the most solid position the Pacers have had the past 25 years.

Peck
06-16-2009, 12:43 PM
I'm using my own criteria here because worst players don't always mean least talented. So having said that...

pg- Jamaal Tinsley
sg- Jim Thomas
C- Greg Dreiling
sf-Ron Artest
pf- Jermaine O'Neal

Now if I just use lack of talent I would of course remove Tinsley, Artest & O'Neal and add Jerry Sichting, Ron Anderson & Mike Bantom.

However you will never get me to believe that the above named players have not done more long term harm to the franchise than anyone else ever has. I don't just mean off court antics btw either. Selfish on court actions were taken into consideration as well.

Unclebuck
06-16-2009, 01:30 PM
Didn't Ron Anderson score 42 points against the Pacers after he left and was playing for the Sixers.

Mike Bantom was one of my favorites from the early days.

I find this thread as one of the oddest I can remember. I don't know how anyone can really pick the worst Pacers players ever - I guess I just don't look at things that way. You win and lose as a team - so OK, I'll play along I'll pick the 1984 or was it the 1983 pacers that only won 20 games.

OK, I looked it up. I don't know if any other franchise had 4 straight years quite like this: (click on the links to see rosters - the links are fun to look at it has all ythe stats and salaries of each player) First player to make $1M per year was Wayman 1988. Wow the first player to make over $4M per year was Dale davis 1995. First player to make $10M was Reggie 2002.


1983. 20-62 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1983.html
1984. 26-56 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1984.html
1985. 22-60 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1985.html
1986. 26-56 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1986.html

Los Angeles
06-16-2009, 01:38 PM
Fred Jones
Eddie Gill
James Jones
Austin Croshere
David Harrison.


And later on...
Marcus Haislip
Britton Johnsen
Tremaine Fowlkes

Bingo.

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 01:50 PM
Didn't Ron Anderson score 42 points against the Pacers after he left and was playing for the Sixers.

Yes.


Mike Bantom was one of my favorites from the early days.

Agreed - and those teams weren't *that* bad relative to the 80s.


OK, I looked it up. I don't know if any other franchise had 4 straight years quite like this: (click on the links to see rosters - the links are fun to look at it has all ythe stats and salaries of each player) First player to make $1M per year was Wayman 1988
1983. 20-62 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1983.html
1984. 26-56 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1984.html
1985. 22-60 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1985.html
1986. 26-56 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1986.html

Well, we had a rival... we won 94 games over four years.

Cleveland -
1982 28 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1981.html
1982 15 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1982.html
1983 23 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1983.html
1984 28 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1984.html

also won 94 games over four years, and the end of their rotten stretch overlapped the beginning of ours.

Unclebuck
06-16-2009, 01:59 PM
Yes.



Agreed - and those teams weren't *that* bad relative to the 80s.



Well, we had a rival... we won 94 games over four years.

Cleveland -
1982 28 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1981.html
1982 15 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1982.html
1983 23 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1983.html
1984 28 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1984.html

also won 94 games over four years, and the end of their rotten stretch overlapped the beginning of ours.


Yes, but at least the cavs contributed to NBA rules - the Ted Stepien rule. Teams can't trade consecutive first round picks. he has to be the worst owner in sports history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Stepien

http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/11/ted-stepien-and-the-james-worthy-rule/

Didn't realize he once fired Joe tait

jhondog28
06-16-2009, 02:03 PM
Didn't Ron Anderson score 42 points against the Pacers after he left and was playing for the Sixers.

Mike Bantom was one of my favorites from the early days.

I find this thread as one of the oddest I can remember. I don't know how anyone can really pick the worst Pacers players ever - I guess I just don't look at things that way. You win and lose as a team - so OK, I'll play along I'll pick the 1984 or was it the 1983 pacers that only won 20 games.

OK, I looked it up. I don't know if any other franchise had 4 straight years quite like this: (click on the links to see rosters - the links are fun to look at it has all ythe stats and salaries of each player) First player to make $1M per year was Wayman 1988. Wow the first player to make over $4M per year was Dale davis 1995. First player to make $10M was Reggie 2002.


1983. 20-62 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1983.html
1984. 26-56 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1984.html
1985. 22-60 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1985.html
1986. 26-56 . http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/1986.html

Uncle B dont hate on my thread man ;) I was just trying something different that would induce good conversation.

Slick Pinkham
06-16-2009, 02:08 PM
The sad thing is we were so bad back then that I seem to have blotted some things out of my memory, maybe to stay sane. I'm sure I followed them closely (though I was in college then). For the life of me, I can't even remember who PG John Duren was. I just saw his stats for 83-84 and knew he must be the worst PG that ever started.

I even googled his picture and still don't remember the dude. weird.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/j_duren.gif

Unclebuck
06-16-2009, 02:10 PM
Uncle B dont hate on my thread man ;) I was just trying something different that would induce good conversation.

Not hating on it, just as I was going through my mind trying to come up with the worst players - I really couldn't, so I thought I would contribute as best as I could. You are right about it inducing good conversation though.

Unclebuck
06-16-2009, 02:11 PM
The sad thing is we were so bad back then that I seem to have blotted some things out of my memory, maybe to stay sane. I'm sure I followed them closely (though I was in college then). For the life of me, I can't even remember who PG John Duren was. I just saw his stats for 83-84 and knew he must be the worst PG that ever started.

I even googled his picture and still don't remember the dude. weird.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/j_duren.gif

Yeah, I don't remember him at all. I think all Pacers fans who are less than 35 years old should be forced to live through the 1982 - 1985 seasons - it builds character

RWB
06-16-2009, 02:25 PM
And don't forget.....starting for your Indiana Pacers at coach... George Irvine.

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 02:51 PM
There was a season that I did not watch or listen, and it might have been '83-84. Not only was the team terrible, but Dick Vitale was the color commentator and I think it was Mike Ingliss on the radio. The broadcast teams were worse than the on-court product.

They may have even switched from WIBC to WIRE (which was the country station - AM 1430 - before WFMS became popular and country music was really country music, not the watered-down rock and roll that has been called "country" for the past fifteen to twenty years.)

Yeah, it had to be that season, because I watched (or tried to watch) both of Stansbury's seasons.

The 1984-85 team probably holds the unofficial record for "most games trailing by 20+ points entering the fourth quarter." They just weren't competitive at all, losing 21 games by 15 points or more.

Slick Pinkham
06-16-2009, 03:13 PM
I remember the radio home switch, because WIRE had a range of like 25 miles and couldn't even be picked up in Crawfordsville.

I think in those days I followed the Pacers by buying USA Today, which had a more complete box score than the local papers, and seeing the seemingly infrequent games on Channel 4.

But then I was also in college, carrying two majors and two minors (all in the sciences), imbibing now and then... I guess I was busy. Too busy for watching a 15 win team.

Unclebuck
06-16-2009, 03:40 PM
There was a season that I did not watch or listen, and it might have been '83-84. Not only was the team terrible, but Dick Vitale was the color commentator and I think it was Mike Ingliss on the radio. The broadcast teams were worse than the on-court product.

They may have even switched from WIBC to WIRE (which was the country station - AM 1430 - before WFMS became popular and country music was really country music, not the watered-down rock and roll that has been called "country" for the past fifteen to twenty years.)

Yeah, it had to be that season, because I watched (or tried to watch) both of Stansbury's seasons.

The 1984-85 team probably holds the unofficial record for "most games trailing by 20+ points entering the fourth quarter." They just weren't competitive at all, losing 21 games by 15 points or more.



I'll never forget the strong of terrible radio play-by-play guys between Bob Lamey and mark Boyle. J, your years are a bit off though. Mike Inglis who was probably the worst play-by-llay guy the pacers ever had was the last one right before mark Boyle and Inglis lasted only a year but Clark Kellogg was in the booth with him for the whole year - so it was a few years later than you are thinking. Dicky V. got his broadacasting start with the pacers
(although I don't recall if he was also working at ESPN at the time.

Trying to think of the other radio play-by-play. Bob Lamey, then I think Greg Lucas who was actually pretty good and I know he was during the WIRE days, then they had a guy by the name of Greg Pappa (I might be getting these first names wrong, I seem to think everyone's first name was Greg) - who I thought was awful, but he became the Warriors TV guy at some point. I know there was 1 other one before Mike Inglis - but I can't remember who.

Actually Mike Inglis was the worst ever, listening to him I had no idea what was going on - things like who scored, which team had the ball, where the ball was, plus he had obviously never done basketball before because he knew none of the lingo.

I just rememebered a guy by the name of Ted Davis - who worked a few preseason games and then left for the mavs, and maybe that was the year they brought in Inglis. Davis was good though, I remember hearing him on Mavs radio and thought I wish he was here.

The first time I heard mark Boyle, I was impressed and I remember writing the pacers a letter begging them to stay with Mark. Mark was a little dry at first, but very easy to listen to and extremely easy to follow what was going on by listening to him. We are really lucky mark has stayed here all these years. he is really good and I would just say that

Trophy
06-16-2009, 04:01 PM
Any starting lineup with David Harrison at center and Maceo Baston at PF.

CompACE
06-16-2009, 05:17 PM
Dwayne Schintzius

Best thing that guy ever did was the movie Eddie... and that's not saying much.

PacerDude
06-16-2009, 05:36 PM
Dwayne Schintzius There's our 1st nominee for the Pacers All Hair Team.

ChicagoPacer
06-16-2009, 05:59 PM
On the subject of bad franchise runs:

How about the LA Clippers from 86/87 to 89/90? Sure, they improved from a 12 win team to a 30 win team over that time, but they only won 80 games total over that period. 12 wins, 17 wins, 21 wins, and 30 wins in successive seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/1987.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/1988.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/1989.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/1990.html

This was the worst part of a ten year stretch when they never won more than 32 games in a season.

Slick Pinkham
06-16-2009, 06:05 PM
There's our 1st nominee for the Pacers All Hair Team.

Just like the 80s dominate the all-bad team, the 70s rule the all-hair team.


PF: Darnell http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2073/2251024839_edcb3e6f3a.jpg

SF: Roger http://contentdm.acpl.lib.in.us/cgi-bin/thumbnail.exe?CISOROOT=/coll6&CISOPTR=7145

SG: Johnny Neumann http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/johnny_neumann_240.jpg

PG:Freddie http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/601/31372791/1972Topps219FreddieLewisPSA9x35.jpg

the 60s/70s centers seemed to avoid the big hair trend, though, so it may be a battle between Dwayne and Scot Pollard. I may have to give the nod to Scot.


http://snap.tbo.com/images/100038/photos/2007/03/27/gallery/1602570.jpg
vs.
http://thesportsbrareports.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/p.jpg

speakout4
06-16-2009, 08:29 PM
i don't go back as far as many fans here but Lasalle Thompson and Fred Jones were two players i didn't like watching and also throw in Pooh's lousy shooting. The trade for pooh was a bust.

I just could never understand Thompson's horrifically high salary for the time-$2M.

PacerDude
06-16-2009, 09:27 PM
I just could never understand Thompson's horrifically high salary for the time-$2M.Nobody could set a screen like Tank.

Without him, the early Pacer playoff runs just don't happen.

Kegboy
06-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Anyone who doesn't understand LaSalle Thompson's value needs to go back and watch Reggie's 25-point quarter in the Garden.

speakout4
06-16-2009, 10:09 PM
Anyone who doesn't understand LaSalle Thompson's value needs to go back and watch Reggie's 25-point quarter in the Garden.

For the first three seasons that he played 80+ games for Indiana he was a 6+ ppg and 6+ rebounds guy. His next three years with the pacers he was a 3 and 2.5 man. You are correct that he set great screens but I don't see that as enough. There are backup centers who have those kinds of numbers.

Sometimes you have to look good on a stat sheet as well.

pacers31tc
06-16-2009, 10:24 PM
How about Sarunas Jasikevicius? He was actually so bad we had to dump him in his second season with us. A lot of us (including Bird) thought he would come in and take Tinsley's spot, and he started for some time.

Pacerized
06-16-2009, 10:39 PM
For the first three seasons that he played 80+ games for Indiana he was a 6+ ppg and 6+ rebounds guy. His next three years with the pacers he was a 3 and 2.5 man. You are correct that he set great screens but I don't see that as enough. There are backup centers who have those kinds of numbers.

Sometimes you have to look good on a stat sheet as well.

I'll agree with you on this one. Tank was never a great rebounder, or scorer and was much to slow on D. He set a great pick but I can't think of any aspect of his game that was even average for an NBA big man. He did last for 15 years in the NBA. I'm also not sure if he ever started for 20 games in a single season.

Peck
06-16-2009, 10:49 PM
Anyone who doesn't understand LaSalle Thompson's value needs to go back and watch Reggie's 25-point quarter in the Garden.

He made Patrick Ewing look the fool.

Mr_Smith
06-16-2009, 10:51 PM
C- David Harrison or Greg Kite LOL
PF- Mark Pope
SF- Kenny Williams (despite the high flying ability)
SG- Fred Jones
PG- Eddie Gill, Lester Conner

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 11:12 PM
Kenny Williams started a total of seven games in his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willike03.html

Lester Conner appears in a total of 11 games, zero starts.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/connele01.html

Fred Jones started in 19 games during his time with the Pacers - most of which were during the post-brawl suspensions.

Mark Pope never started a game for the Pacers.

Greg Kite never started a game for the Pacers and only appeared in nine games.

Not to be a snoot, but come on... this thread is for "worst starters."

switch
06-16-2009, 11:17 PM
Fred Jones
Eddie Gill
James Jones
Austin Croshere
David Harrison.


And later on...
Marcus Haislip
Britton Johnsen
Tremaine Fowlkes

Agreed, these were easily the worst group of starters to my knowledge; but they may have been some of the hardest workers at the same time.

They didn't have close to as much talent as the starters they were asked to temporarily replace, but if JO, SJax, Artest, and JT played every game with as much hart as the scrubs listed above (or even half as much) the Pacers franchise would likely be in a much more pleasant situation today.

PacerGuy
06-16-2009, 11:18 PM
john edwards
Stewart Gray agree's w/ this choice!

Scott Haskins wants to know where is the Damon Bailey love here?

And for equal state representation...

John "Hot Plate" Williams wants to know where the Everett Stevens fans have gone?

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 11:22 PM
He made Patrick Ewing look the fool.

My hunch is that the people dismissing Tank didn't actually watch him play, or appreciate how much better he made the team than Herb Williams did even though his statistical contribution was less. (Including less turnovers than Herb, but that was kinda the point of getting rid of Mr. Turnover in the first place.)

Tank would be the prototype of a player that is better appreciated inside the arena than by people watching on tv, listening on the radio or reading the box score. Tank's biggest contribution was just how few mistakes he made - perhaps he didn't make as many offensive plays and his rebounding was in decline but he had great position, made solid passes, didn't turn the ball over, and did not put the opposing center on the FT line.

For a young team lacking a leader, Tank was also that guy (especially as Vern's role diminished.)

ChicagoJ
06-16-2009, 11:25 PM
Stuart Gray - five starts in his entire career, including one for the Hornets after he left the Pacers.
Bailey - zero regular season NBA games in his entire career.
Everette Stephens - three games total for the Pacers.
Hot Plate - 34 games, zero starts for the Pacers.

Mr_Smith
06-16-2009, 11:41 PM
Kenny Williams started a total of seven games in his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willike03.html

Lester Conner appears in a total of 11 games, zero starts.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/connele01.html

Fred Jones started in 19 games during his time with the Pacers - most of which were during the post-brawl suspensions.

Mark Pope never started a game for the Pacers.

Greg Kite never started a game for the Pacers and only appeared in nine games.

Not to be a snoot, but come on... this thread is for "worst starters."

Ok Ron Jaworski "stat man" didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, I just randomly named off players that came of the top of my head. Calm down man

ChicagoJ
06-17-2009, 12:12 AM
I'm calm. But you'll notice the rest of us were naming starters. Clearly our list of terrible end-of-the-bench scrubs would look much different if that is what the O.P. asked us to do.

Unclebuck
06-17-2009, 09:02 AM
Anyone who doesn't understand LaSalle Thompson's value needs to go back and watch Reggie's 25-point quarter in the Garden.

Besides his excellent screens/picks, he had three straight steals of passes into Ewing - and those were huge

Drewtone
06-17-2009, 09:58 AM
You made a good point. I just remember watching those guys start for the Pacers and they were so terrible that it seemed like they started more often than they actually did. I'll revise my list.

PG - Pooh Richardson
SG - John Long
SF - George McCloud (started 21 games in '92-93)
PF - Clemon Johnson (started 42 games in '81-82)
C - Greg Dreiling

I'm not sure it's fair to list McCloud, as Donnie tried to force him into a PG when he drafted him... Donnie even admitted he hurt George's career and helped him get back to the league with Denver in his natural SF position, where he did OK.

Drewtone
06-17-2009, 10:03 AM
[QUOTE=ChicagoJ;894891]

They may have even switched from WIBC to WIRE (which was the country station - AM 1430 - before WFMS became popular and country music was really country music, not the watered-down rock and roll that has been called "country" for the past fifteen to twenty years.)

QUOTE]


Wasn't WIRE the sister station to WXTZ "...ecstacy...stereo 103... all music, all the time..." That station was blocks from my parents' (44th/Knollton)... got those stations through our power outlets/my guitar amp/our phones/etc. all the time.

Unclebuck
06-17-2009, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=ChicagoJ;894891]

They may have even switched from WIBC to WIRE (which was the country station - AM 1430 - before WFMS became popular and country music was really country music, not the watered-down rock and roll that has been called "country" for the past fifteen to twenty years.)

QUOTE]


Wasn't WIRE the sister station to WXTZ "...ecstacy...stereo 103... all music, all the time..." That station was blocks from my parents' (44th/Knollton)... got those stations through our power outlets/my guitar amp/our phones/etc. all the time.

My dad would listen to WXTZ - usually I hated listening to it, but it was relaxing. I am confused as to what WIRE was and what WIFE was. I think WIRE was 1430 and WIFE was something to the right on the radio dial - forget the frequency - maybe 1260. WIFE was a talk and sports station - but they never carried the Pacers. Anyone remember the sports talk host on WIFE - had to be early 80's. He was on from maybe 5-7. One of his weird phrases was "pause for the cause"