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View Full Version : Celtics might be looking to trade Ray Allen and Rondo



Unclebuck
06-05-2009, 09:02 AM
I know this is Hoopsworld - but the quotes from Ainge and Doc abpout Rondo I think are interesting at least

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=12861

By: Bill Ingram Last Updated: 6/5/09 1:41 AM ET | 5488 times read



For the past few days we've been hearing rumors that the Boston Celtics might be willing to part with Ray Allen before the start of the 2009-2010 season. HOOPSWORLD asked around in Chicago, where the majority of NBA executives were taking a look at most of the first round draft prospects, and managed to find out a few more details. We have now added to those, with the help of WEEI's Jessica Camerato in Boston.

Off the record, we have several sources telling us that Ray Allen is, indeed, on the block. It's easy to make the leap, as the Celtics have managed to develop some nice young talent around their Big Three while also managing to win a championship. They might have even repeated had Kevin Garnett been healthy. It's not a stretch to say the Celtics would part with Allen, who has an ending contract next season, if they could add another top young player to the mix.

On the record we have an added wrinkle - one that we thought to be highly unlikely until we found it reported with a quote attributed to Celtics GM Danny Ainge. It seems the Celtics are willing to package Rajon Rondo with Allen to make the right deal happen

"He's stubborn," Ainge told ESPN's Jackie MacMullen. "He doesn't always take direction well. He's very bright and knows what he needs to do to be successful. But sometimes he doesn't understand what the team needs to be successful."

Doc Rivers expressed similar sentiments, which he directed at Rondo himself earlier this season.

"Do you know your teammates hate playing with you? ... The point guard has to be the guy that brings energy to the team. You can't be the guy that sucks it away. Your moodiness is affecting us. Change it."

At the same time, Rondo has guys like Paul Pierce and Kendrick Perkins saying he's their leader and they believe in him. And while there is a great deal to be said for patience and seeing if Rondo will improve as much next season as he did in 2008-09, there is certainly a lot of negativity coming from the decision-makers - enough to fuel trade speculation.

The latest rumor making its way around - and we're not hearing that there is any truth to it, on or off the record - has the Phoenix Suns sending Amar'e Stoudemire (of course) to the Celtics in a package for Rondo and Allen, with Leandro Barbosa also included in the deal.

So . . .who gets benched? Kevin Garnett? Kendrick Perkins? You're talking about the best defensive front court in the NBA a season ago. Sitting Perkins removes a strong defender and replaces him with a true defensive screen door.

There is definitely some truth to the idea that the Celtics would move Ray Allen - and maybe even Rajon Rondo - if the right deal came along. As for the Suns coming up with the right deal, that seems highly unlikely.

Rashard Lewis Earning His Money

The Orlando Magic have taken some heat for paying Rashard Lewis what they paid him last season. The five-year contract that pays Lewis basically $20 million per season was high, and in some circles his 17.7 points and 5.7 rebounds . . .even his 40% three-point accuracy . . .don't warrant the pay. Now, with the Magic tipping off in the NBA Finals tonight, Lewis is showing people they were wrong about him, and about his team. He recently told ESPN radio that being the underdogs pushed his team to play harder.

"It kept putting fuel to the fire, we feed off of that, we've been underdogs for a long time," said Lewis, who averaged 19.0 points in helping the Magic sweep the season series from the Lakers this year. "We like being the underdog because we're going to sneak up on you and surprise you. If you're not ready to play the Orlando Magic, then anything can happen because we feel like we have a pretty good ball club."

Lewis says the Magic knew they could beat the Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference Finals when the the two teams met for Game 2. It took a miracle shot from LeBron James to beat Orlando, and they didn't feel lightning could strike twice.

"When we really got a lot of our confidence, when we knew we could beat that team was the second game, played on their home-court. We was able to steal the first one, the second one, obviously LeBron hit the big shot to win the game, we felt like if he wouldn't have made that shot we had them down zero to two, after coming from their home-court and we were ready to go home. We had a lot of confidence after losing that game we had a good chance of beating this team if we came out and played the way we know how to play basketball."

Now, with the Finals just a few hours away, the Magic might have injured point guard Jameer Nelson back in uniform. Lewis says he's sure that Nelson will do what's best for the team, whether that means he suits up, or whether that means he stays in his suit to cheerlead.

"It all depends, now we have a couple days to practice, I'm sure he'll go through a couple practices, see how he feels, see how his conditioning is, because he hasn't played the game in a long time. For him to get a scrimmage in, get up and down and kind of see where he's at with his rhythm, and then I'm sure he'll try his best to do what's best for the team. If he needs to play then I'm sure he'll try his best and go out there and play, but at the same time, he wants to make sure he's healthy and able to perform."

Whether or not Nelson is able to suit up, Rashard Lewis will be ready to do what he's done all season: help the Magic continue to surprise their doubters.

Listen to Rashard's entire interview here!




View Bill Ingram Archive Villanueva And The Cavs?

As we've discussed at length in this space, the Milwaukee Bucks have a difficult choice facing them this summer. They have two key free agents in Charlie Villanueva and Ramon Sessions, and one of them is most likely going to be a casualty of the salary cap. The fact that the Bucks are looking very closely at every point guard available in the draft would make you think they're leaning towards letting Sessions walk, but it's far too early to know. In truth, the Bucks themselves haven't made the decision yet, and are holding out hope that they can find a way to keep both. That said, plenty of teams are starting to think about what Villanueva would look like in their uniforms. One of them might be the Cleveland Cavaliers.

"I understand the situation Milwaukee is in financially," Villanueva said on ESPN Radio recently, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "They don't want to go over the cap or what not (actually the luxury tax level). Whatever team decides to make the best offer, I'm going to think about it. "Cleveland definitely is not a bad spot. I've played with LeBron. I played with LeBron in the McDonald's All-American Game and we played well together. Is there a possibility? Yes. Will it happen? Time will tell."

First and foremost, Villanueva believes he could have helped the Cavs get past the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference Finals.

"I think I would be able to help out a lot," Villanueva said. "Just the fact I bring my versatility and create mismatch problems. One of the reasons Orlando is in the Finals is because of Rashard Lewis. They have a legitimate big man (Dwight Howard) that demands attention, and they surround him with guys that can play on the perimeter."

Indeed, it's easy to see Villanueva matching up with Lewis, who is more consistent, but a very similar type of player.

We're a long way from knowing what will happen in Milwaukee or Cleveland, but we are certain they will be two of the big movers in free agency. It's not a stretch to say they could wind up doing something together that helps both sides.

NBA Chat Tonight!

HOOPSWORLD Executive Editor Jason Fleming will hold his weekly chat tonight, talking about Portland's draft predictions, the NBA Finals, and anything else you're dying to know about. Drop your questions in now for Jason - it will be a nice warm-up for the big game!

First Look At Tonight's Action

Orlando Magic @ Los Angeles Lakers: The wait is officially over. After a long week of predictions, match-up analysis, and discussion of how seriously we should take LeBron James' no-show after Game 6, we're finally getting down to business. Dwight Howard and Kobe Bryant will lace them up tonight in their quest to decide the best team in the NBA. The Magic swept the season series from the Lakers, one of only two teams to accomplish that feat (Charlotte was the other). How does that translate into postseason play? We'll start to find out tonight. HOOPSWORLD's Eric Pincus will be courtside, so catch his blog below!

count55
06-05-2009, 09:06 AM
Ummmm.....wow?

I don't know what to make of it. My instinct is to be skeptical, but it would be intriguing if the comments are true.

MyFavMartin
06-05-2009, 09:20 AM
Allen makes sense if they want to keep the ball rolling. KG and Pierce, a strong 1-2. Allen presents a large expiring. Let the trade proposals begin!

duke dynamite
06-05-2009, 09:28 AM
Wow, just think...Rondo can end up anywhere. I would think he'd fit in at Golden State or Charlotte. Just think if he wound up playing for the Knicks.

MillerTime
06-05-2009, 09:54 AM
Wow .... I'm so surprised the C's would think of moving Rondo. He's played so great for them especially in the playoffs. Which ever team lands him would be very lucky.

If C's get Amare and Barbosa they won't be as good defensively

OakMoses
06-05-2009, 09:55 AM
A few thoughts on this...

I can't see the Celtics moving Rondo, especially not for Stoudamire, that's a horrible trade for the Celtics.

Rashard Lewis is nowhere close to earning his contract.

Charlie Villanueva would not have made the Cavs a significantly better team in the playoffs. I'd take Varejao over Villanueva anyday.

Speed
06-05-2009, 10:46 AM
Charlie Villanueva would not have made the Cavs a significantly better team in the playoffs. I'd take Varejao over Villanueva anyday.

Absolutely!

Sollozzo
06-05-2009, 10:52 AM
Stupid. Give it one more run with the big 3. You almost beat Orlando without KG

Unclebuck
06-05-2009, 11:00 AM
Looking at it from the outside, the Celtics would be stupid to trade either one. I think if they were healthy the Celtics beat the Magic and the Cavs and have the best chance of any team of beating the Lakers. In fact watching last nights game I was thinking how much better the series would be if it was a rematch of last year.

Perkins defends Howard better than anyone I've seen, so they have a leg up there.

OakMoses
06-05-2009, 11:05 AM
This would probably get me lynched in Boston, but if I were going to trade anybody on the Celtics, I'd trade Pierce. I watched a lot of both playoff series this year, and he really looks like he's lost a step. He was fantastic during last year's run, but he was awful at creating his own shot this year. If I could get a younger, more creative wing player for him, I'd probably do it.

Unclebuck
06-05-2009, 11:11 AM
This would probably get me lynched in Boston, but if I were going to trade anybody on the Celtics, I'd trade Pierce. I watched a lot of both playoff series this year, and he really looks like he's lost a step. He was fantastic during last year's run, but he was awful at creating his own shot this year. If I could get a younger, more creative wing player for him, I'd probably do it.

You are right, he didn't look good, but I think he was injured - (did he have some type of surgery after the series ended???) Unless it is a long-term type injury, I wouldn't trade him - he is still there go to guy

Sollozzo
06-05-2009, 11:50 AM
This would probably get me lynched in Boston, but if I were going to trade anybody on the Celtics, I'd trade Pierce. I watched a lot of both playoff series this year, and he really looks like he's lost a step. He was fantastic during last year's run, but he was awful at creating his own shot this year. If I could get a younger, more creative wing player for him, I'd probably do it.


You have some valid points, but that just is never going to happen. Pierce is a Celtic legend now. He's one of the best players to ever play there and that's saying something. I don't think Ainge wants to PO the fanbase that much.

I agree with UB on his point that the Celts would've made the finals again with KG.

OakMoses
06-05-2009, 12:08 PM
Pierce is a Celtic legend now. He's one of the best players to ever play there and that's saying something.

He's not even in the top 5 Celtics. He's just the most recent very good player that's been there for a long time.

I probably wouldn't be actively trying to trade him, but if the opportunity arose, I wouldn't think twice about it.

Sollozzo
06-05-2009, 12:21 PM
He's not even in the top 5 Celtics. He's just the most recent very good player that's been there for a long time.

I probably wouldn't be actively trying to trade him, but if the opportunity arose, I wouldn't think twice about it.

No he's not one of the top 5 Celtics, but then again you are talking about the Boston Celtics-the most storied franchise in the NBA.

He's played 11 years there and led the team to the championship. He stuck it out there when things were bad and I think Boston fans love him for that. He's a Celtic for life.

count55
06-05-2009, 12:21 PM
He's not even in the top 5 Celtics. He's just the most recent very good player that's been there for a long time.

I probably wouldn't be actively trying to trade him, but if the opportunity arose, I wouldn't think twice about it.

This was my take...I can name 4 four players in the last 30 years (Bird, McHale, Parish, KG) who were better, and that doesn't even bring in the guys from the 60's and 70's like Havlicek, Cousy, Cowens, Russell, etc.

I went to the RealGM Boston board, and one of their guys had created a thread about who they would need to get to trade Pierce, and the answers ranged from LeBron to "he'll retire a Celtic", so there's some passion there...but...we'll hear that kind of response from some quarters here if you asked what it would take to trade Danny, so...take it FWIW.

Unclebuck
06-05-2009, 01:11 PM
Tommy Heinsoln has said over and over again that Pierce is the best scorer ever to play for the Celtics.

CableKC
06-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Assuming that there is some validity to this Allen+Rondo for Amare+Barbosa rumor....from a Trade Value POV ( ignoring needs and whether it makes sense ), both teams get back quality.....with the 2 big pieces ( Amare and Allen ) are pretty much exchanging an Expiring for an Expiring. The cost for taking on both is for the Suns to get back a quality Defensive minded PG while the Celtics get back the higher-profile Player in Amare at the cost of taking on Barbosa ( a quality Rotational Guard ) that has a bigger/longer contract.

But from a "Practical" POV, you could figure out why the Suns would do this.....to get Rondo ( a Starting quality Scoring/Defensive minded PG ) while maintaining their Salary Cap flexiblity with another huge Expiring Contract. But you would have to wonder why the Celtics would be interested in Amare ( who will likely bolt after the 2009-2010 season for "greener pastures" through FA ). Other then the obvious in that he's another Big Ticket Draw and can contribute on the offensive end.......why acquire a player that plays a position that the Celtics already have to 2 Starting quality players at ( even if it's a likely rental ).

My initial thought when I heard this is whether the Celtics have greater concern regarding how much "wear and tear" that KG has endured and whether it is catching up with him. My guess is that Ainge is looking for another move to try to make another last run at the Championship for 1 more season before the KG/Pierce really start to wear down.

Doddage
06-05-2009, 02:29 PM
I think it could be a good idea for the Celtics to trade Allen to a rebuilding team that's looking to trade some vets, like when the Bulls got Salmons and Miller from the Kings for cap relief. If the Celtics find something like that, they can re-sign Allen when the other team presumably buys him out and they can put themselves in the position to have gotten deeper.

The only problems I see with this are if they can't find such a deal, or if they don't want to pay the luxury tax for salaries that extend past 2010. Seeing as they're a contending team though, I think it's in their best interests to use as much money as they need to bolster their playoff success.

ESutt7
06-05-2009, 03:15 PM
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/59611/20090605/source_rondo_not_on_block_some_minor_discussions_o n_allen/

Rumors that Rajon Rondo was put on the block by the Boston Celtics seemed to be message board fodder and sources say the report is not true. "Can he be frustrating at times? Absolutely. But no one is ready to give up on him," a Celtics source said.
"Whoever put the Rondo rumors out there obviously works for someone other than the Celtics."
The source said that the Celtics may have had some "very minor" conversations about Allen, "but he's not likely going anywhere, either."
He concluded, "My guess is some other team talked to (the Celtics), mentioned Ray in passing, and then the other team took it to people throughout the league who accepted it as gospel. That's how these things get started, and now Danny is going to have to get out there and refute all this stuff that he really had nothing to do with.
"Does the team need some tweaking? Most definitely. But there is no panic around here, and trading Rajon and Ray would be a panic move. That's why it's so absurd."
Via RealGM.com

Trophy
06-05-2009, 03:18 PM
Wow after reading this, this is gonna be a summer full of trades.

Trader Joe
06-05-2009, 03:27 PM
If Rondo has "moodiness" then I would say the vets on the Celtics are to blame for it. KG and Pierce molded Rondo's personality.

His biggest knock coming into the league (other than his jumpshooting) was the fact that he was way too passive.

Something doesn't add up about those comments.

Hicks
06-05-2009, 04:14 PM
If Rondo has "moodiness" then I would say the vets on the Celtics are to blame for it. KG and Pierce molded Rondo's personality.


What? Wow. I don't know what to say in rebuttal, but I strongly disagree.

Trader Joe
06-05-2009, 04:16 PM
What? Wow. I don't know what to say in rebuttal, but I strongly disagree.

Really? Am I the only one who remembers KG taking Rondo under his wing? Rondo had a huge knock of being too passive.

I'm not saying I agree with the original premise that Rondo is "moody", but I'm saying that if that statement holds true, then the Celtic vets have to look at what kind of an example they set. Personally, I think the whole article smells like a load of poo.

Trophy
06-05-2009, 04:16 PM
They can get some value for Kendrick Perkins instead of Ray Allen. I just don't see why they would do it anyway.

d_c
06-05-2009, 04:24 PM
They can get some value for Kendrick Perkins instead of Ray Allen. I just don't see why they would do it anyway.

Without Perkins, the Magic would have swept the Celts this year.

Young
06-05-2009, 05:03 PM
I can't see those quotes being true about Rondo.

Heck why would the Celtics trade either Rondo or Allen? With a healthy KG we probably have a rematch of last years finals and they have a good shot at winning a title next year assuming all are healthy.

If I am the Celtics Rondo is one of the last players to be traded. I think he will be an all star and he is the reason they have a big 4 and not a big 3 there in Boston. Is it just me or am I the only one who thinks he was huge for them last year in the playoffs?

Trophy
06-05-2009, 05:33 PM
Without Perkins, the Magic would have swept the Celts this year.

I mean they trade him this summer instead of Allen. Garnett will be back next year so they'll get their defensive unit back.

idioteque
06-05-2009, 06:52 PM
If the Celtics want to trade Pierce, they will. There is no loyalty anymore in sports. I always thought Jordan would be a Bulls lifer, that Ewing would always be a Knick, that Payton would be Mr. Sonic, that Chris Mullin was the consummate Warrior, and that the Mailman would always play for the Jazz.

Just doesn't work that way anymore.

And count, for arguments sake, I can't believe you are rating KG that high as a Celtic.

Naptown_Seth
06-05-2009, 07:54 PM
Really? Am I the only one who remembers KG taking Rondo under his wing? Rondo had a huge knock of being too passive.

I'm not saying I agree with the original premise that Rondo is "moody", but I'm saying that if that statement holds true, then the Celtic vets have to look at what kind of an example they set. Personally, I think the whole article smells like a load of poo.
And I forget who it was just the other day, some player (sorry, can't remember but maybe C.Lee) was asked which team talked the most trash. He skirted it a bit but basically said the Celtics and mainly their vets - ie, KG as we all know.

Look, if your vet leadership crawls on all fours during a game to taunt a guy, he's not exactly setting a tone of non-moodiness and steady maturity.

Sollozzo
06-05-2009, 08:59 PM
This was my take...I can name 4 four players in the last 30 years (Bird, McHale, Parish, KG) who were better, and that doesn't even bring in the guys from the 60's and 70's like Havlicek, Cousy, Cowens, Russell, etc.


How can you say that KG is a better Celtic than Pierce when KG has played in Boston for 2 years (1 post season) compared to Pierce's 11?

KG may have been a more important player to the Celts last year (though Pierce got the finals MVP), but Pierce's 9 more years in the green make him a far better Celtic overall. KG was ring chaser (not knocking him, I woulda done the same thing) who grew up and spent his best years as a Timberwolf. Pierce grew up and flourished as a Celtic, and thus I think he will far more treasured in Celtic history. He's repped Boston in many all star games and stuck with the franchise through the thick and thin.

To me, thats like ranking JO ahead of Reggie on all time great Pacer lists. Sure JO's 03 and 04 seasons were better than any season Reggie had, and he was definitely more talented than Reggie. But Reggie's 18 years and year after year big moments make him far more important in the eyes of Pacer fans.

I'll give you the other 3 easily, those 3 guys were Celtics for a long long time and won 3 titles together.

Sollozzo
06-05-2009, 09:01 PM
If the Celtics want to trade Pierce, they will. There is no loyalty anymore in sports. I always thought Jordan would be a Bulls lifer, that Ewing would always be a Knick, that Payton would be Mr. Sonic, that Chris Mullin was the consummate Warrior, and that the Mailman would always play for the Jazz.

Just doesn't work that way anymore.

And count, for arguments sake, I can't believe you are rating KG that high as a Celtic.


The difference is all of those guys you mentioned change teams when they were well past their prime and in the waning years of their careers. Pierce still has 4-5 good years left and I would be absolutely stunned if the Celtics let him spend those years somewhere else. When he's 38 or so then I could maybe see him winding up somewhere else, but it isn't going to be anytime soon.

count55
06-05-2009, 11:15 PM
I said it because I think KG is a vastly superior basketball player to Pierce, and because if I were the C's, I would trade Pierce long before I'd trade KG. To be honest, I was more in the mindset of "best basketball players to ever play for the Celtics" not "best careers as a Celtic".

I am sure you're right that he is held more dearly to Celtic fans, but I found hearing the phrases "Celtic Legend" and "one of the best players ever to play there" jarring when I heard them used to refer to Paul Pierce. He's a talented guy, but I think his standing with Celtics fans says more about how far that storied franchise had fallen (302-354 during Pierce's career prior to the acquisition of Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett) than it does about Pierce.

Dr. Goldfoot
06-05-2009, 11:31 PM
Paul Pierce is good but would you say he's a better scorer than Larry Bird?
That's in re: to UB's quote from some dude.

PP is in the Celtics top ten in just about every major category. It's hard to surmised how a player will be remembered down the road or how stats may change over the coarse of 20 or 30 or more years. Hell, 20 years ago if you hit 25 homers you batted in the middle of the lineup in MLB.

With that said, it's hard to include Paul Pierce with Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, The Chief, McHale etc.. but the records books sure do.

Taterhead
06-06-2009, 03:20 AM
These quotes are nothing more than misquotes by hoopsworld, very shoddy journalism at best. Actually some of the worst I've seen.

Here are the quotes in original context:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=macmullan_jackie&page=Rondo-090423

As far as Allen on the block, I could understand that.

ABADays
06-07-2009, 02:08 PM
I think we should definitely consider Allen so we can watch him possibly break Reggie's record.

Pacers
06-07-2009, 02:11 PM
I think we should definitely consider Allen so we can lose him on the bench and prevent him from breaking Reggie's record.

I went ahead and fixed this. :D

BRushWithDeath
06-07-2009, 02:20 PM
Tommy Heinsoln has said over and over again that Pierce is the best scorer ever to play for the Celtics.



Then Tommy Heinsoln has been wrong over and over again.

ABADays
06-09-2009, 10:09 PM
I went ahead and fixed this. :D

Touche

Major Cold
06-10-2009, 08:29 AM
You know I think the Garnet thread and this are linked. Shakes down like this:

Rumor hits the mill that Rondo and/or Allen are on the trade market. Garnet gets miffed walks into TPTB and says, "With Allen and Rondon, I guarantee we will win the championship in 2010 and 2011."

rexnom
06-10-2009, 08:56 AM
Btw, those quotes about Rondo are very old. I remember hearing Bill Simmons talking about Ainge and Rivers firing him up months ago. I think the consensus is that Rondo turned over a new leaf in the playoffs. They aren't trading him for a while.

nerveghost
06-10-2009, 09:24 AM
Off the record, we have several sources telling us that Ray Allen is, indeed, on the block.

Doesn't "off the record" mean you're not supposed to report it?

Ryan
06-10-2009, 09:35 PM
Doesn't "off the record" mean you're not supposed to report it?

You can report it but dont disclose the source.

Rondo would be the last player on the team they traded. Shoots a high %, best rebounding/defender PG in the league.

MyFavMartin
06-15-2009, 08:14 PM
Seems this rumor still has some life, so hence the bump.