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View Full Version : Complicated 3 way: Indiana/Philadelphia/Minnesota



thunderbird1245
06-03-2009, 07:36 PM
My quest to come up with a sensible trade to improve our Pacers, be realistic to the needs of the other teams involved, and get in better financial shape for the future continues. I've come up with the following possible scenario, that does work under the CBA:

Indiana trades #13 pick in the 2009 draft, and the rights to Erazem Lorbek to Minnesota.

Indiana trades T.J. Ford and Troy Murphy to Philadelphia

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Minnesota trades the #28 pick in the 2009 draft to Philadelphia

Minnesota trades Mike Miller and Brian Cardinal to Indiana


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Philadelphia trades Samuel Dalembert, Reggie Evans, $3 million in cash, and a future lottery protected 1st round draft pick to Minnesota

Philadelphia trades the #17 pick in the 2009 draft and Mareese Speights to Indiana


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This means for Indiana:

IN: #17 pick, PF Mareese Speights, Mike Miller, Brian Cardinal
OUT: #13 pick, PF Troy Murphy, and PG TJ Ford

For Minnesota:

IN: #13 pick, rights to Erazem Lorbek, $3million cash, C Samuel Dalembert, PF Reggie Evans, future lottery protected 1st round pick from Philadelphia.

OUT: #28 pick,F Brian Cardinal, SG Mike Miller

For Philadelphia:

IN: #28 pick, PG TJ Ford, PF Troy Murphy

OUT: #17 pick, C Samuel Dalembert, PF Reggie Evans, PF/C Mareese Speights, $3million dollars, future lottery protected first round draft pick

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Why for Indiana:

Reasons would be numerous I think. By trading Ford and Murphy, Indiana gains a huge amount of cap space for the summer of 2010, helping get our financial house in order. Miller is a great fit for us for many reasons, as he is a seemingly good fit in this current system, can back up both Granger and Rush, and will be motivated as he has an expiring contract. Cardinal has a large expiring and is a Purdue graduate and good character guy. Indiana gets a long term solution at the PF spot in Speights (who it is well known that I love) with a few years left on his rookie deal. Speights is significantly better than any big man available when we are slated to pick, and we can move down 4 spots in this deal and still be able to take Ford's replacement with the #17 pick.

More than anything, this is a very smart financial move for us I believe long term, and I think it actually makes us a better overall team as well, albeit one with some holes still. It also gives you an asset (Brian Cardinals expiring contract) to try and use to dump Tinsley on someone perhaps.

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Why for Minnesota:

The Twolves need a big Center to play good defense and play in a rotation with Love and Jefferson. This lets the TWolves move Jefferson to his natural PF position and limits his daily minutes at Center. This gives the Wolves 3 different big guys whose games fit together well and who have many complimentary skills.

It also leaves them with 3 first round draft picks: #6, #13, and #18. The Wolves could take 3 young players if they want to, or they could package 2 of those picks and try to make a deal with either Oklahoma City or Memphis for a chance to pick Ricky Rubio if they so desire. They also add a future first rounder and $3,000,000 in this deal to help offset the big contract Dalembert has.

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Why for Philadelphia:

Sixers have a new coach in Eddie Jordan who plans to run the Princeton offense, a new scheme that totally doesnt fit the game or talents of either Mareese Speights (who is blocked by Elton Brand anyway and who played hardly at all if any in the playoffs for Philly) or Samuel Dalembert. This move lets them dump tha albatross contract of Dalembert and fill in with 2 players who fit their needs perfectly:

Ford, a veteran younger guard to take the place of free agent Andre Miller
Murphy, who is a nice fit in the Princeton offense, and a good compliment to Elton Brand. The Sixers had terrible outside shooting a year ago, Murphy uniquely fills that need as well.

The Sixers in this deal also move up 4 spots in this years draft, which possibly could help them get a player they are targeting. (who that would be I have no idea, maybe Blair, Henderson, Williams or Wayne Ellington in this scenario)


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Ok, let's talk about this deal from the perspective of all three teams, and see what we think of it. I really like the deal from everyone's perspective, when you factor in the long term financial implications and specific team needs and "fits".

Tbird

MyFavMartin
06-03-2009, 08:25 PM
Think that really favors Indy.

Doesn't really meet the needs of Minny and Phily.

ESutt7
06-04-2009, 12:34 AM
I think Philly at least would need more. Considering the value of expirings and talented young bigs, the Pacers do very well for themselves here. The other teams might demand more compensation than that. Perhaps at least Philly gets 13 instead of 17?

d_c
06-04-2009, 12:36 AM
That is just downright awful for Philly. Actually, awful doesn't even begin to describe it.

MillerTime
06-04-2009, 04:45 AM
Philly gets killed

BKK
06-04-2009, 10:33 AM
Philly's front court gets killed

fixed ;)

seriously, Murphy and Brand to man the paint??? :eek:

pacergod2
06-04-2009, 12:35 PM
I think it is an excellent trade. I feel that we would take on the #28, Minny gets the #13 and Philly picks up the #18, giving them back to back picks. They would go best available and Mullens most likely. Remember how much Philly likes Jason Smith, when talking front court. Yes, they would be relying on young centers, but I feel they would probably go get a servicable guy in free agency for defensive purposes. Let's look at Philly's lineup:

PG - Ford, L. Williams, Ivey
SG - Iguadala, Green
SF - Young, (Rookie)
PF - Murphy,
C - Brand, Smith, (Mullins)

Philly after this deal would still need to fill 4 roster spots. My thoughts would be that it would be easy to get a couple of servicable wing players for depth and find a body at center for a year or two to help the two young guys develop. I actually don't think this is that bad of a trade, assuming they think that Brand will be healthy for them. Andre Miller could re-sign with them and they would have an excellnt PG rotation. I actually think they might look to send Louis Williams or Willie Green instead of Reggie Evans.

d_c
06-04-2009, 01:37 PM
I think it is an excellent trade. I feel that we would take on the #28, Minny gets the #13 and Philly picks up the #18, giving them back to back picks. They would go best available and Mullens most likely. Remember how much Philly likes Jason Smith, when talking front court. Yes, they would be relying on young centers, but I feel they would probably go get a servicable guy in free agency for defensive purposes. Let's look at Philly's lineup:

PG - Ford, L. Williams, Ivey
SG - Iguadala, Green
SF - Young, (Rookie)
PF - Murphy,
C - Brand, Smith, (Mullins)

Philly after this deal would still need to fill 4 roster spots. My thoughts would be that it would be easy to get a couple of servicable wing players for depth and find a body at center for a year or two to help the two young guys develop. I actually don't think this is that bad of a trade, assuming they think that Brand will be healthy for them. Andre Miller could re-sign with them and they would have an excellnt PG rotation. I actually think they might look to send Louis Williams or Willie Green instead of Reggie Evans.

That's squinting really, really hard.

You have Philly giving up their starting C and best bigman prospect, and getting back Murphy/Ford, two guys who are marginal starters with big contracts. Jason Smith to them is a disposable item. He's their Ike Diogu. He's a trade throw in at best. He doesn't mean much to him, while Speights means a lot. And sending Louis Williams instead of Evans just further screws them up the river.

And they're also throwing in a future 1st rounder as well.

And they get no salary relief. Really, take this to a Philly board and you'd probably get trashed and told to never come back.

And Mulllens might not even be available at #18.

This is just a bad, bad trade for Philly.

rexnom
06-04-2009, 03:45 PM
You had me at "complicated 3 way."

Trophy
06-04-2009, 06:59 PM
Too many trades involving Murph. I really don't understand why.

d_c
06-04-2009, 08:15 PM
Too many trades involving Murph. I really don't understand why.

Probably because people would rather have a player who does things at PF that Murphy doesn't.

jeffg-body
06-04-2009, 11:48 PM
Yeah baby! Three ways are always complicated but fun. I like this from the P's end but am not sure Philly would do this. Minny probably would go along.

Trophy
06-05-2009, 03:52 PM
Probably because people would rather have a player who does things at PF that Murphy doesn't.

Now we're looking for another PF. Murphy's playing well at where he's at, he does things most PF should do like get double-doubles night in and night out.

d_c
06-05-2009, 05:07 PM
Now we're looking for another PF. Murphy's playing well at where he's at, he does things most PF should do like get double-doubles night in and night out.

Yes, but he has absolutely gaping holes at about 2 or 3 other things that PFs should do night in and night out.

Trophy
06-05-2009, 05:15 PM
Yes, but he has absolutely gaping holes at about 2 or 3 other things that PFs should do night in and night out.

He's the kind of PF I would always look for if I were a GM. At least one big man who can also shoot.

pacergod2
06-05-2009, 05:24 PM
Yeah DC. If you noticed I was trying to tweak the trade a little bit. I also mentioned Willie Green as well as Louis Williams. I know they like Williams, but all he is, is a small two guard off the bench. He and Ford on the floor together would be inefficient. They make similar money over the course of their contracts. Philly needs shooters. I wonder if we tweaked the trade a little to send Mike Miller to Philly instead of Ford if it would be a little more even.

Troy Murphy plays NO DEFENSE. NONE. NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT. Sorry to be so blunt if that is you Troy. He is solid offensively, but he plays more like a wing. If he was moved to SF he would be even slower in comparison to how slow he is against PFs. I love having Troy on our team, but he is overpaid and terrible defensively. He would be great for 20 minutes a game off the bench at about 5-6M per.

Trophy
06-05-2009, 05:38 PM
We can't all be great defenders. It's not like it's an easy thing. He's good in other areas of his game. He plays like a PF by getting us our rebounds. It's not like he doesn't do a thing. That's why Bird is looking for a backup PF. To add some defense to that position and not take away the offense. That's what he likes and that's why he's on our team.

And no I'm not Troy Murphy.

pacergod2
06-05-2009, 06:26 PM
I don't know if I believe you. Troy. I am not saying I don't like what you do at all. I am just saying I prioritize defense as a basketball philosophy and PF is the most important position to be a good defender IMO.

Trophy
06-05-2009, 08:13 PM
Believe me about what? I understand that you want Troy to be a good defender but he isn't and he does other helpful things for our team like rebound, shoot well, drive to the basket. Even if you look at excellent playoff teams, even their best players aren't the best defenders but they get around that by doing other things such as on the offensive end. It's a team effort. Each player has a certain role and abilitly that they contribute to their team. Troy is not the lock on PF and we're more of an offensive team. Most of our players are scorers. So all in all, I like Bird's idea of bringing in a good backup PF who can defend.

Taterhead
06-06-2009, 03:09 AM
Believe me about what? I understand that you want Troy to be a good defender but he isn't and he does other helpful things for our team like rebound, shoot well, drive to the basket. Even if you look at excellent playoff teams, even their best players aren't the best defenders but they get around that by doing other things such as on the offensive end. It's a team effort. Each player has a certain role and abilitly that they contribute to their team. Troy is not the lock on PF and we're more of an offensive team. Most of our players are scorers. So all in all, I like Bird's idea of bringing in a good backup PF who can defend.

I know Troy, but I don't know if you noticed, our record has sucked the last two years. And defense is why, we gave up over 115 points in over 20 games last year. Defense is not a role, it's a duty that falls on all if you want to win basketball games. And Murphy is not doing his part, in fact he's the main reason for that.

Let me ask you this. Who would you get rid of in the starting line-up to improve our defensive play? A back-up is not going to make us respectable, he wouldn't play enough minutes. Keep in mind the Pacers main problem is protecting the paint. You mentioned defense isn't easy, and you're right. It is near impossible to keep guys out of the paint anymore. So the only way to defend that is with your bigs down low. It's about improvement as a team, it isn't personal. I think most Pacers fans appreciate Murphy's assets and character. But sometimes that just doesn't cut it in the win column.

d_c
06-07-2009, 10:07 AM
Believe me about what? I understand that you want Troy to be a good defender but he isn't and he does other helpful things for our team like rebound, shoot well, drive to the basket. Even if you look at excellent playoff teams, even their best players aren't the best defenders but they get around that by doing other things such as on the offensive end. It's a team effort. Each player has a certain role and abilitly that they contribute to their team. Troy is not the lock on PF and we're more of an offensive team. Most of our players are scorers. So all in all, I like Bird's idea of bringing in a good backup PF who can defend.

Just want to say something about Troy on the offensive side of the ball (not talking about defense at all here).

Troy is a nice player and guy who can give you some scoring and he'll rebound the ball for you, but overall he's not a guy opposing teams are overly worried about matching up with.

His lack of ability to score consistently inside or, more importantly, inability to take advantage of opposing players who are either bad defensively or undersized is cutting the opposing team a really big break every single night.

He can definitely score the ball and get on a hot streak, but he's not a guy you really run plays for. You can't post him up. He's not mobile enough to run around screens to get open. At most you're running a little pick and pop two man game with a guard, but that's the extent of it.

There was that game vs. Utah at the end of the year where Troy hit something like six 3 pointers in the first half. In the 2nd half, Utah actually started paying attention to him and denied him the open 3. The Pacers tried running him off the ball to get him open, but you could tell it just wasn't in Troy's game to do that and subsequently he didn't hit a single 3 in the 2nd half.

He's not a guy like say, a Rashard Lewis who you can run plays for. With Lewis, you can run all different sorts of plays with him off the ball, have him come off of screens or have him post up on a smaller guy. This makes the Magic harder to defend. With Troy, you can't run these types of plays. You're more or less just handing him the ball and hoping he's hot.

Trophy
06-07-2009, 04:36 PM
I know Troy, but I don't know if you noticed, our record has sucked the last two years. And defense is why, we gave up over 115 points in over 20 games last year. Defense is not a role, it's a duty that falls on all if you want to win basketball games. And Murphy is not doing his part, in fact he's the main reason for that.

Let me ask you this. Who would you get rid of in the starting line-up to improve our defensive play? A back-up is not going to make us respectable, he wouldn't play enough minutes. Keep in mind the Pacers main problem is protecting the paint. You mentioned defense isn't easy, and you're right. It is near impossible to keep guys out of the paint anymore. So the only way to defend that is with your bigs down low. It's about improvement as a team, it isn't personal. I think most Pacers fans appreciate Murphy's assets and character. But sometimes that just doesn't cut it in the win column.


I don't know what the hell you mean when you call me Troy?

Anyway conversation closed.

Taterhead
06-07-2009, 09:49 PM
I don't know what the hell you mean when you call me Troy?

Anyway conversation closed.

LMAO!

It's just short for troymurphy3. Take it easy brother. People around here just call me tater all the time. dukedynamite=duke,thunderbird=t-bird,jayredd=jay, etc.

ESutt7
06-17-2009, 01:17 PM
Think Philly would have any interest in a Dalembert/Speights for Ford/Foster combo? They're giving up a young guy, but getting rid of a contract they despise for 2 good rotation/starters that have reasonable contracts and fill holes.

d_c
06-17-2009, 06:18 PM
Think Philly would have any interest in a Dalembert/Speights for Ford/Foster combo? They're giving up a young guy, but getting rid of a contract they despise for 2 good rotation/starters that have reasonable contracts and fill holes.

I doubt they're interested in giving up Speights the same way I doubt the Pacers are interested in giving up Rush.

Also, if Ford is a good starting PG with a reasonable contract, why get rid of him? Probably because you don't really view him that way but you're hoping someone else does.

Doddage
06-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Also, if Ford is a good starting PG with a reasonable contract, why get rid of him? Probably because you don't really view him that way but you're hoping someone else does.
Not necessarily. You can think someone is a "good starting PG with a reasonable contract", but not want to keep him because A) your team has another starting PG who is coming off an expiring deal that you want to re-sign, B) to not have so much money spent towards one position, C) to give way to drafting a PG in a PG-heavy draft that can be used as a backup.

Ford IS a good starting PG with a reasonable contract, and no one here would talk about trading him if the Pacers weren't in the situation they're in right now (which ironically is the same the Raptors were in last season).

pacergod2
06-18-2009, 06:11 PM
Ford is our most valuable and realistic trade piece. Hibbert, Rush, and Granger aren't realistically getting traded unless it is a whale of a deal. I would love to keep Ford around, but I prefer the Jack at a lower price tag. I really like Ford and think he can become a much better basketball player. I just don't know that it is worth it when we have a player who is closer to attaining what we want out of a PG who needs to get re-signed.

I wouldn't mind keeping Ford and signing Brandon Bass over re-signing Jack if the best value we can get at 13 is a future PG for our franchise. I think keeping Jack might be more of a luxury than we can afford.

With as many good PG's there is in this draft, it looks as if a lot of our Tinsley trading partners are gone and an imminent buyout is probably what will happen in arbitration. I just hope the buyout amount can go against prior precedents for buyouts, i.e. better terms, lower buyout rate, etc.

d_c
06-18-2009, 08:02 PM
Not necessarily. You can think someone is a "good starting PG with a reasonable contract", but not want to keep him because A) your team has another starting PG who is coming off an expiring deal that you want to re-sign, B) to not have so much money spent towards one position, C) to give way to drafting a PG in a PG-heavy draft that can be used as a backup.

Ford IS a good starting PG with a reasonable contract, and no one here would talk about trading him if the Pacers weren't in the situation they're in right now (which ironically is the same the Raptors were in last season).

Ford is a nice starting PG as long as you don't expect your starting PG to average over 30 minutes a game. He can start, but recognize his liabilities in the areas of size, health and inconsistency on the floor. His contract isn't outrageous, but it's also far from a bargain.

At the end of the year, he was overtaken by a combo guard who spent most of his career backing up Steve Blake. In the Pacers case, yeah, it'd probably be more practical to sign and keep Jack for cheap and trade TJ. At the end of the day, Ford is a passable PG with limitations. He's the type of starter who you're always going to try to find an upgrade for.

A team like Philly could use Ford, but they'd probably be more inclined to keep a good young bigman prospect in Speights, who is probably better than every bigman prospect in this upcoming draft other than Griffin.