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View Full Version : will hibbert be a howard stopper?



billbradley
06-03-2009, 05:09 PM
i posted this in the ecf thread, then thought it could be a poll.

http://www.cleveland.com/
Monday Thoughts - June 1, 2009
Michael Curry


- Am I the only one who is thinking back to the 2008 NBA Draft and wishing Roy Hibbert had fallen to the Cavaliers at the 19th pick? Hibbert is one of the few players with the size to give Dwight Howard problems, and he went to Indiana with the 17th pick. I don't think there's any chance that the Pacers would part with him now, but there aren't many big men out there that are even possibilities.

hibbert's best game vs howard

R. Hibbert 14:58 6-10 (FT) 0-0 12 points 4 reb (BS)2 (TO)0
D. Howard 29:15 7-14 (FT)8-10 22 points 10 reb (BS)2 (TO)6

Hicks
06-03-2009, 05:15 PM
Never, and that's not really me criticizing Hibbert, but this is just an unfair question to ask of any center. It's like asking about a Shaq stopper circa the late 90's early 2000's.

Coop
06-03-2009, 05:21 PM
I voted 'never' as well. I think he has the potential to do a better job than a lot of big men in the East, but there's no way he's going to stop Dwight.

OakMoses
06-03-2009, 05:25 PM
Do I think Hibbert can do a good job defending Howard in the low post? Yes.

Do I think Hibbert can stop Howard from dominating the boards and making a huge impact defensively? Not a chance.

d_c
06-03-2009, 05:27 PM
There isn't going to be a Dwight stopper and it'd be unfair to Hibbert to expect that out of him.

The closest guy right now is Kendrick Perkins. I thought that guy did an amazing job on Howard, and he did it mostly one on one, without any double team help. He forced Howard into a lot of shots falling away from the basket thoughout that series.

That's about all you can ask out of anyone trying to guard him.

OakMoses
06-03-2009, 05:35 PM
There isn't going to be a Dwight stopper and it'd be unfair to Hibbert to expect that out of him.

The closest guy right now is Kendrick Perkins. I thought that guy did an amazing job on Howard, and he did it mostly one on one, without any double team help. He forced Howard into a lot of shots falling away from the basket thoughout that series.

That's about all you can ask out of anyone trying to guard him.

I was thinking the same thing about Perkins. Howard did average only 16 points a game during the Boston series on 54% shooting. Both are lower than his regular season averages.

Swingman
06-03-2009, 05:40 PM
what constitutes a howard stopper? The question is too vague and can have multiple interpretations.

Do you mean "Can he consistently take Howard out of his game to the point of being ineffective?" highly unlikely (at least until Howard is slowed by old age or injured)

or

"Can he slow him down enough so that he has a subpar game by Howard's standards and do a better job than most other big men in the NBA?" quite possibly

On certain nights, you never know what will happen but I don't think we can expect Hibbert to completely shut him down on any kind of consistent basis.

ABADays
06-03-2009, 05:47 PM
Never, and that's not really me criticizing Hibbert, but this is just an unfair question to ask of any center. It's like asking about a Shaq stopper circa the late 90's early 2000's.

Absolutely correct.

BlueNGold
06-03-2009, 06:09 PM
Howard is no Shaq, but this is like asking if Travis Diener could contain CP3. Hibbert is simply not going to be a defensive force. The best thing we can ask from Hibbert is that he become another Rik Smits...who was not a good defender either. At best, he will be adequate which leads to the obvious. He needs to be paired with a Dale Davis type player...or the closest thing the Pacers can acquire in that direction. Hibbert can be an important part of a good team, but he will never be good at protecting the paint.

Swingman
06-03-2009, 06:30 PM
Why wouldn't he be good at protecting the paint?

Hibbert may be like Smits on offense but that doesn't mean he'll be as limited defensively. Hibbert seems to have all the tools to be a good defender. It's not like he's an uncoordinated, molasses that has no drive to improve his game.

Never is such a very long time and Hibbert just finished his rookie season.

Trophy
06-03-2009, 06:36 PM
We were able to stop Magic last season. I wouldn't say Hibbert was a Dwight Howard stopper he still had a pretty good game. We just had a good shooting night and were prepared for their shooting.

Tiny Archibald
06-03-2009, 06:41 PM
What Perkins did a great job with is using his bulk to keep Howard
from getting the kind of deep position that he likes.

I don't see Hibbs ever having the heft or a low enough center of
gravity to ever accomplish that.

Kid Minneapolis
06-03-2009, 06:42 PM
Howard is only 23 --- I get the feeling he still has a lot to improve and will. That's the scary part.

jmoney2584
06-03-2009, 06:43 PM
Yea, I too think Hibbert/Smits is a bad comparison. I think most modern Pacers fans have known Rik Smits as the only legit, all-star center the Pacers have had and Roy is going to be unfairly compared to him since he is our first young center prospect in ages. Hibbert did a great job vs. Oden in college, and as he fills out and develops in this league I feel confident that his defensive abilities will surely exceed that of Rik Smits. At the end of the year Roy had some tough, hustle plays that suprised the bejeezus out of me. Roy has a lot between the ears and when you combine that with his impending physical development you have a 7'2" center that while isn't the most athletic player on the court, contributing his size and length to a TEAM defensive concept will be exponentially beneficial to future title hopes AND he will be a serviceable 1-on-1 defender as well. No one is going to STOP Dwight Howard, but when Hibbert gets stronger he wil certainly be able to bother him with his length and positioning.

dohman
06-03-2009, 06:43 PM
In another 2 years there will be no one in the world that will be able to stop howard. With his build / athletic ability he is going to be the best big man in the nba for a VERY VERY long time.

Hibbert will be a good player though. I can honestly see him at 16 ppg and 6-7 rebounds a night.

d_c
06-03-2009, 06:45 PM
I think the one thing people are overlooking with Hibbert isn't any particular skill, but his stamina (I guess you could consider this as part of a skill set too).

Never in any of his 3 college seasons did Hibbert average more than 26.5 mins/game. Not even in his final year at GTown when he was the team's best player. This was really due to his conditioning issues.

A big credit to Roy that he looks a lot slimmer and leaner now than back in his college days, but he has to continue improving on this to be a real starter that plays more than 30 mins a game. I think this is a more important thing to improve on than thinking about being a Dwight Howard stopper.

d_c
06-03-2009, 06:48 PM
We were able to stop Magic last season.

Stop them from what? Orlando won all 3 meetings, with 2 of them being blowouts.

Trophy
06-03-2009, 07:03 PM
Stop them from what? Orlando won all 3 meetings, with 2 of them being blowouts.

Stop them from winning.

wjs
06-03-2009, 07:57 PM
Stop them from what? Orlando won all 3 meetings, with 2 of them being blowouts.


Feb 6, 2009 -- Indiana 107, Orlando 102


Orlando 29 22 23 28 102

Indiana 32 29 19 27 107


D. Howard 42:00 8-18 21 pts 20 Rebounds

R. Hibbert 16:24 4-8 10 pts 3 Rebounds

Arena: Conseco Fieldhouse, Indianapolis, IN

d_c
06-03-2009, 08:07 PM
My bad. The Pacers stopped the Magic once in 4 tries last year.

PR07
06-03-2009, 08:17 PM
No, he's neither athletic or strong enough to throw Howard off his game. The best person I've seen defend Dwight Howard is Kendrick Perkins, and that's because he's strong and has a low center of gravity so Howard can't move him.

LoneGranger33
06-03-2009, 08:22 PM
I think the real question is: Will Howard be a Hibbert stopper?

Pacersfan46
06-03-2009, 08:29 PM
I think the better question is will ANYONE be a Howard stopper? ;)

So in reference to the question given ... HELL no.

-- Steve --

d_c
06-03-2009, 08:32 PM
I think the better question is will ANYONE be a Howard stopper? ;)

So in reference to the question given ... HELL no.

-- Steve --

Perkins did about as good an individual job as you can reasonably expect against Howard, but as Blue/Gold mentioned, you're still not going to be able to stop Howard from dominating the boards and being a defensive monster.

And nobody on Boston was able to stop that. Howard played like the DPOY that he was and crushed everyone on the boards.

MyFavMartin
06-03-2009, 08:37 PM
How many fouls does Roy get? :laugh:

Howard will command double teams from almost every team in the NBA. Roy's got the length to bother him, but he's got to keep Dwight from getting position in the low block and learn not to foul when he loses that battle.

Smits was not mobile. Hibbert isn't bad considering how tall he is and can move his feet fairly well.

We'll have BRush and Danny to help collapse on him. Hopefully we can force him away from the basket.

I agree that a "force" at PF would help not only against Dwight but the other NBA teams that have a strong post presence.

I love Troy and his heart and effort, but our Pacers gave up too many career nights to opponents last year (Amare comes to mind)...

vnzla81
06-03-2009, 08:48 PM
I think the real question is: Will Howard be a Hibbert stopper?

I was going to post this......:laugh:

McKeyFan
06-03-2009, 09:56 PM
There were a couple of games where Roy looked like he provided Dwight a force to be reckoned with.

Shut him down? Probably not. Do better than most centers in the NBA in a one on one contest? I think it's possible.

Slick Pinkham
06-03-2009, 09:58 PM
Baby steps... I hope he can become, say, a Zaza Pachulia stopper first. ;)

Major Cold
06-03-2009, 10:08 PM
I think that any warm body can "contain" Dwight....to the Free Throw line that is.

Hibbert should never be the sole defender on Howard. That is why it is key that we get another defender on this team.

Anthem
06-03-2009, 10:11 PM
Smits didn't have to stop Ewing for us to beat the Knicks.

Kid Minneapolis
06-04-2009, 12:48 AM
I think that any warm body can "contain" Dwight....to the Free Throw line that is.

Hibbert should never be the sole defender on Howard. That is why it is key that we get another defender on this team.

Hey now, Howard hit 70% of his FTs during the Cavs series.

PacersRule
06-04-2009, 01:09 AM
It seems to me that Hibbert can play against Howard, but to stop a guy who can bench 225 lbs 25 consecutive times and reach more than 12 feet into the sky...I'd say near impossible. Didn't George Karl say something about defending Kobe that even Jesus would have problems? I think Howard applies to that also...

clownskull
06-04-2009, 01:24 AM
Do I think Hibbert can do a good job defending Howard in the low post? Yes.

Do I think Hibbert can stop Howard from dominating the boards and making a huge impact defensively? Not a chance.

very well said. roy has the size in the post to make it more difficult for dwight however, he will never have the speed and agility required to stop the guy. he just isn't that athletic and never will be. i do believe he can make some significant improvements on his agility with strength training and all that but, he just will never be a dwight stopper.
that being said, i think with making some gains through strength training, he could be a problem for dwight (to a degree) because he does have a height advantage and i think he has the smarts to able to exploit it some day.
he would need the agility of an alonzo, hakeem or perhaps the admiral to really make it difficult for howard.

MrSparko
06-04-2009, 01:37 AM
what constitutes a howard stopper? The question is too vague and can have multiple interpretations.

Do you mean "Can he consistently take Howard out of his game to the point of being ineffective?" highly unlikely (at least until Howard is slowed by old age or injured)

or

"Can he slow him down enough so that he has a subpar game by Howard's standards and do a better job than most other big men in the NBA?" quite possibly

On certain nights, you never know what will happen but I don't think we can expect Hibbert to completely shut him down on any kind of consistent basis.


Hibbert will be an old man by then too.

d_c
06-04-2009, 01:42 AM
i do believe he can make some significant improvements on his agility with strength training and all that but, he just will never be a dwight stopper.


Right now, he needs to improve stamina over everything else. He's never averaged more than 26 mins a game in college, let alone over an 82 game NBA schedule. You can't consider him as your primary center until he proves he can handle the minutes.

clownskull
06-04-2009, 01:47 AM
Right now, he needs to improve stamina over everything else. He's never averaged more than 26 mins a game in college, let alone over an 82 game NBA schedule. You can't consider him as your primary center until he proves he can handle the minutes.

yeh, i agree he needs to work on the stamina thing too. strength and stamina are his biggest weaknesses at the moment as far as i'm concerned. he has the smarts and they will come through as he gains more experience but since he is still growing into his massive frame, he needs to keep working on strength and conditioning.

Major Cold
06-04-2009, 07:34 AM
I think he needs to work on stamina, but he will never be able to give us 35 mpg. I just don't think a player can make that transition from pro to college.

Unclebuck
06-04-2009, 08:25 AM
No, he's neither athletic or strong enough to throw Howard off his game. The best person I've seen defend Dwight Howard is Kendrick Perkins, and that's because he's strong and has a low center of gravity so Howard can't move him.

I agree 100% Perkins did an incredible job on Howard - I was surprised

Jonathan
06-04-2009, 09:14 AM
I posted never but BJ Mullens will be after Bird selects him 13th in the 2009 Draft.

Major Cold
06-04-2009, 09:28 AM
I posted never but BJ Mullens will be after Bird selects him 13th in the 2009 Draft.
:rolleyes: ludicrous. How is Mullens going to stop the most dominant big man in the league, if in fact he couldn't get off the bench in college?

ChicagoJ
06-04-2009, 12:39 PM
Smits didn't have to stop Ewing for us to beat the Knicks.

:king:

Granger-Rush09
06-04-2009, 07:27 PM
Hibbert Will Be fine as a full timer, maybe not 35 mins but at least 28-30, our problem is Foster(age), Murphy(toughness), and McRoberts(lack of mins behind Murphy).



And The Pacers Select.....STEPHEN CURRY!!!(Crowd Goes Wild):boomer:

croz24
06-04-2009, 07:48 PM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...howard without his athleticsm and size is a mediocre center. so there's a chance for hibbert as he already has a better skillset than dwight.

Granger-Rush09
06-04-2009, 08:11 PM
I posted never but BJ Mullens will be after Bird selects him 13th in the 2009 Draft.

http://images.art.com/images/-/Mr-Bill---Ohh-Nooo-Magnet-C11751410.jpeg

NapTonius Monk
06-04-2009, 08:30 PM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...howard without his athleticsm and size is a mediocre center. so there's a chance for hibbert as he already has a better skillset than dwight.

I want to agree with you, but Howard isn't the only player in the NBA who is tall, can run, and can jump. And you don't find them putting up 30/20 games routinely. I do agree that he doesn't have other worldly post moves and such, but the guy is good. I have to give him his props. If he ever really gets a go-to move in the post, have mercy on the rest of the league.

Anthem
06-05-2009, 12:05 AM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...
croz, the board just wouldn't be the same without you.

Pacersfan46
06-05-2009, 12:09 AM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...howard without his athleticsm and size is a mediocre center. so there's a chance for hibbert as he already has a better skillset than dwight.

LOL!

You couldn't possibly have typed this with a straight face ..... right?

-- Steve --

Merz
06-05-2009, 12:15 AM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...howard without his athleticsm and size is a mediocre center.

The problem with that "point" is that Howard does have that athleticism and size. The athleticism and size that no one else in the NBA has at that position.

SoupIsGood
06-05-2009, 01:47 AM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...

:cool:

croz24
06-05-2009, 01:57 AM
i'm sorry but he isn't...he's an average man defender, has a very low basketball iq, has no shot beyond 5 feet with which to speak, has limited post moves, can't hit free throws, is a detriment offensively late in games, and lacks the leadership qualities to become a great...but because of his size and athletic abilities, he's the best rebounder in the game and is just too strong for anybody to handle in the low low post...howard really doesn't have much of a basketball skillset at all. shaq, would have still been great without his size, as would have lebron, and wilt. without his physical attributes, dwight wouldn't be a good center at all...i'm just saying dwight howard is incredibly overrated relative to who he's compared to or how much he's hyped.

i also think people are vastly underrating the pieces dwight has around him in orlando.

Unclebuck
06-05-2009, 09:13 AM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...howard without his athleticsm and size is a mediocre center. so there's a chance for hibbert as he already has a better skillset than dwight.

Those are similar to the things people used to say about Shaq as he tore up the league and won multiple championships.

Kid Minneapolis
06-05-2009, 11:47 AM
i'm sorry but he isn't...he's an average man defender, has a very low basketball iq, has no shot beyond 5 feet with which to speak, has limited post moves, can't hit free throws, is a detriment offensively late in games, and lacks the leadership qualities to become a great...but because of his size and athletic abilities, he's the best rebounder in the game and is just too strong for anybody to handle in the low low post...howard really doesn't have much of a basketball skillset at all. shaq, would have still been great without his size, as would have lebron, and wilt. without his physical attributes, dwight wouldn't be a good center at all...i'm just saying dwight howard is incredibly overrated relative to who he's compared to or how much he's hyped.

i also think people are vastly underrating the pieces dwight has around him in orlando.

Disagree. With all 'dat.

Well, I agree with the limited post moves and average FT shooter, but he will add post moves over time, he's already added quite a few. Dude is only 23 years old, man.

Since86
06-05-2009, 12:24 PM
without his physical attributes, dwight wouldn't be a good center at all

Without his legs, Michael Johnson wouldn't have won the gold in the 400m dash either.

Anthem
06-05-2009, 02:46 PM
i'm sorry but he isn't...he's an average man defender, has a very low basketball iq, has no shot beyond 5 feet with which to speak, has limited post moves, can't hit free throws, is a detriment offensively late in games, and lacks the leadership qualities to become a great...but because of his size and athletic abilities, he's the best rebounder in the game and is just too strong for anybody to handle in the low low post...howard really doesn't have much of a basketball skillset at all. shaq, would have still been great without his size, as would have lebron, and wilt. without his physical attributes, dwight wouldn't be a good center at all...i'm just saying dwight howard is incredibly overrated relative to who he's compared to or how much he's hyped.
Heh. Danny's in pretty good company, then. :D

OTD
06-05-2009, 05:48 PM
Hibbert like all big men still needs at the most 2 more years to develop. And then we can see. But I for one think it could be a very great battle.

thefeistyone
06-07-2009, 06:44 PM
howard is actually a pretty average basketball player...howard without his athleticsm and size is a mediocre center. so there's a chance for hibbert as he already has a better skillset than dwight.

I would love to have an average basketball player like him...

Hibbert can slow him down eventually. I don't think there is anyone that is going to shut down howard. The hardest part about trying to lock down howard is all the 3 point shooters they have on the court. When they knock down their shots like they did against cleveland there's not much you can do. When they are cold like game 1 against the lakers then you can help down on him and make him a non factor. If Bynum and Gasol can contain him i don't see any reason hibbert can't do a decent job on him.

Major Cold
06-07-2009, 09:16 PM
I understand what croz is saying. Howard has a lot of growth yet. He is still the best big man though. His FTs is not as bad as Shaqs. His timing on the boards is impeccable. That is more than leaping ability, it is instincts.

Defensively he is one of the best low post scorers. He fights positioning and eliminates go to moves.

He is still young and offensively has a lot to work on.

croz24
06-07-2009, 11:42 PM
howard had 3 tos in the last 2minutes of the game alone due to his inability to handle the basketball, understand how to pass out of a double team, and read how a defender is playing him, thus lack of basketball iq. his man defense also leaves a lot to be desired...people just do not give turk and lewis and alston/nelson enough credit as far as why the magic made it as far as they did. howard is still the most overrated player in the league. i implore you all to watch howard exclusively in the next game and decide for yourselves if he is indeed the next "great" big.

Kid Minneapolis
06-08-2009, 12:18 AM
His game is not static. He's going to improve. We're talking about a 23-year-old kid. Sure he has holes in his game. We're not talking about a 28-year-old veteran in his prime. This kid still has a lot of improvement ahead of him. I don't think anyone is claiming him to be one of the greats *right now*, we just see signs that he could be down the road.

He made (and makes) a lot of good passes out of the paint being double-teamed, so don't quite see the "inability to understand how to pass out of a double team". He's not perfect at it, but he certainly isn't "incapable". As for TO's, this was a high game for him, plus, he's a Center, they're not known for ball-handling, and you just gotta credit LA's defense, because that's what they do... they're long, and they swipe at the ball a lot.

Kobe Bryant himself had 7 turnovers tonight from the guard position, and I don't see any negativity going his direction for it. LeBron was a turnover machine during his series, and everyone considers him God Mode IRL.

ChicagoPacer
06-08-2009, 01:39 AM
i'm sorry but he isn't...he's an average man defender, has a very low basketball iq, has no shot beyond 5 feet with which to speak, has limited post moves, can't hit free throws, is a detriment offensively late in games, and lacks the leadership qualities to become a great...but because of his size and athletic abilities, he's the best rebounder in the game and is just too strong for anybody to handle in the low low post...howard really doesn't have much of a basketball skillset at all. shaq, would have still been great without his size, as would have lebron, and wilt. without his physical attributes, dwight wouldn't be a good center at all...i'm just saying dwight howard is incredibly overrated relative to who he's compared to or how much he's hyped.

i also think people are vastly underrating the pieces dwight has around him in orlando.

It's funny you mention Shaq as someone who would have been great regardless of his size, because what you are saying about Howard has been said about Shaq for years.

No shot outside of 5 feet.
No go to move other than to bull rush his man and muscle him.
Can't hit free throws.
Can be a detriment to the offense late in games (Hack a Shaq).
Lacks the leadership capabilities (Shaq at 23 maybe more so than Howard at 23).
Too strong for anyone in the low post.
Poor man defender.

Shaq never really developed into the player he could have been because he never really had to thanks to his size, strength, and athleticism. There were a 1000 better "basketball players" than O'Neal, but there were few that were as effective as O'Neal on the court.