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Shade
05-31-2009, 12:55 PM
Not many expected the Magic to make it this far, and I'm still not convinced they have what it takes to bring down the Lakers.

Lakers in 6.

count55
05-31-2009, 12:57 PM
If Game 6 of the the Nuggets series is indicative of the Lakers finally getting their act together, then I think the Lakers win this in four or five.

If they screw around, then it will take them 6.

Sollozzo
05-31-2009, 01:00 PM
I'll take Lakers in 6, and I don't think it will have anything to do with them screwing around. I just think the Magic are too good a team not to win 2 games, especially the way they play at home.

Lakers win the first 2 at Staples, steal one in Orlando, then wrap it up at home in game 6.

PacersRule
05-31-2009, 01:54 PM
Lakers match up better against Lewis/Turkoglu with Odom/Ariza. Lakers in 6.

Trophy
05-31-2009, 02:05 PM
I think Lee and/or Pietrus are gonna have a tough time slowing down Kobe. They stayed defended LeBron pretty well so they might have a shot at slowing down Kobe. They can't really move Howard on Kobe because there's still Bynum to defend in the paint.

Other than that I think that Orlando can win this in 6.

Kid Minneapolis
05-31-2009, 02:11 PM
I say Orlando... 6 or 7.

idioteque
05-31-2009, 03:38 PM
It is hard to predict anything with the Lakers because their supporting cast is so inconsistent. Ariza can be crafty or incredibly dumb, Gasol can have a nice touch and provide adequate toughness or be really meek out there, and Bynum can get on a groove and contribute in the post or just fall asleep.

I'll go ahead and say Kobe will provide enough leadership to wake them up, and the Lakers will win in 6 with the series never really in doubt.

Hicks
05-31-2009, 03:54 PM
I'll be rooting for Orlando, but I expect Los Angeles to win.

Slick Pinkham
05-31-2009, 05:13 PM
It is hard to predict anything with the Lakers because their supporting cast is so inconsistent. Ariza can be crafty or incredibly dumb, Gasol can have a nice touch and provide adequate toughness or be really meek out there, and Bynum can get on a groove and contribute in the post or just fall asleep.

I'll go ahead and say Kobe will provide enough leadership to wake them up, and the Lakers will win in 6 with the series never really in doubt.

Odom is the most inconsistent of them all.

Playing the way they all played early in the Denver series would make them lose in 5 to the Magic, playing like the last two games and they win in 5.

I say the Lakers win in 7. There are more ways to contain Howard and spot-up shooters than to contain more multidimensional guys like Kobe and Gasol.

GO!!!!!
05-31-2009, 06:55 PM
Tough Tough
but I'm rooting for the Underdogs... Magic in Six...

GrangerRanger
05-31-2009, 07:11 PM
Can someone tell me how almost averaging 40 points and a triple double in a series is being guarded well? I mean, c'mon, I'm tired of that. Even if he got a majority of the points from the free throw line, that's not good defense. Stan Van Gundy even said they sucked at defending him.

And I don't want to hear the excuse 'THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO AGAINST JESUS JAMES!!!111!!". Because it's obviously not considering he's never averaged that in a series before, or in a regular season series.

shags
05-31-2009, 07:16 PM
Can someone tell me how almost averaging 40 points and a triple double in a series is being guarded well? I mean, c'mon, I'm tired of that. Even if he got a majority of the points from the free throw line, that's not good defense. Stan Van Gundy even said they sucked at defending him.

And I don't want to hear the excuse 'THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO AGAINST JESUS JAMES!!!111!!". Because it's obviously not considering he's never averaged that in a series before, or in a regular season series.

I was thinking the same thing. LeBron was unreal in that series, until the second half of Game 6 when he ran out of gas. Kobe is easier to guard than LeBron.

The key matchup, to me, is Lewis vs. Gasol.

GrangerRanger
05-31-2009, 07:20 PM
I was thinking the same thing. LeBron was unreal in that series, until the second half of Game 6 when he ran out of gas. Kobe is easier to guard than LeBron.

The key matchup, to me, is Lewis vs. Gasol.

I think it's 50-50 really. If James doesn't get 20 free throws, he's Jason Richardson. Kobe doesn't have as great as a drive game but is a better shooter and can move without the ball, and knows when to score and when to pass. You can't really stop Kobe from shooting the ball, you can just put a hand in his face and hope that he misses. If Kobe's shot is off, that's your only real chance of stopping him.

Since you have a higher percentage of getting a foul in the lane (specially if your jersey number is 23) and it's a higher percentage shot, Lebron is harder to defend. Kobe on the other hand, takes harder, more difficult shots.

Sollozzo
05-31-2009, 07:24 PM
Can someone tell me how almost averaging 40 points and a triple double in a series is being guarded well? I mean, c'mon, I'm tired of that. Even if he got a majority of the points from the free throw line, that's not good defense. Stan Van Gundy even said they sucked at defending him.

And I don't want to hear the excuse 'THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO AGAINST JESUS JAMES!!!111!!". Because it's obviously not considering he's never averaged that in a series before, or in a regular season series.


But it was an effective plan (or result). Let Lebron do what he wants, but stop everyone else. Not even Lebron can compensate for ineffective teammates.

Its how the Pistons would beat Jordan year after year. Jordan's PPG in those series were high, but the rest of the Bulls were stopped by Detroit. It's only when guys like Pippen and Grant emerged that the Bulls started wearing jewelry.

GrangerRanger
05-31-2009, 07:29 PM
But it was an effective plan (or result). Let Lebron do what he wants, but stop everyone else. Not even Lebron can compensate for ineffective teammates.

Its how the Pistons would beat Jordan year after year. Jordan's PPG in those series were high, but the rest of the Bulls were stopped by Detroit. It's only when guys like Pippen and Grant emerged that the Bulls started wearing jewelry.

I still don't see how that's good individual defense. That strategy was good, but I hear ESPN and people I know praising Michael Pietrus for his one-on-one defense, which obviously sucked. And despite that, they didn't focus nessicerly on shutting other players down. If you watched the same series as I did, everytime Lebron was double teamed, a large portion of the time he kicked it to a open man.

That open man just missed the shot. The Boston teams and Jordan rules didn't necessarily call for a double team. They called for good help side defense and sending him to the line, while staying close to your assigned man. Shifting fresh bodies in and out to parade him, and keeping a tight hold on the interior. I think Orlando's defense were at times, hard to watch for someone who was actually rooting for Orlando.

GrangerRanger
05-31-2009, 07:33 PM
And besides that, I just wanted to point out that I was probably wrong about the whole double team thing. Just as much as you were about "Pippen and Grant raising up" to get rings. It wasn't either of them that helped Jordan get past the so called "Jordan Rules" (that mimics what Orlando showed in this series against Lebron). It was a guy named Phil Jackson and his triangle offense.

The same one that the Lakers use today.

Shade
05-31-2009, 08:03 PM
Orlando's biggest advantage is Howard, IMO. Neither Bynum nor Gasol should be able to contain him.

Hopefully the Magic are still hot from the perimeter in this series. Should be a high-scoring affair.

owl
05-31-2009, 08:33 PM
Kobe has a much better cast than Cleveland.
Lakers in 6

Kid Minneapolis
05-31-2009, 09:23 PM
Would just like to point out that these two teams scrimmaged twice in the regular season --- Orlando won both times. Charles Barkley might not be entirely sure that Orlando should be the "underdog" in this series.

grace
05-31-2009, 10:50 PM
Attention David Stern: I love the match up of LA and Orlando so much I'll be wathing the Stanley Cup Finals instead.

jeffg-body
05-31-2009, 10:52 PM
It will be interesting to see if Gasol and Odom can contain Howard. I wonder if Orlando will run that same play over and over getting Howard open down low in the paint like they did against the Cleveland Lebrons. They need to contain Howard but I don't see them stopping him. If the backcourt and wings of Orlando can continue to shoot the three the way they have, it could be a nail biting series. My big concern with Orland is can they contain Kobe. Kobe will chew up Lewis on the perimeter and punish their smaller guards down low. My big factor on LA is Fisher and on Orlando is Hedo. It is going to be interesting to watch who imposes their will and flow of the game better. I know its not the Kobe vs Lebron finals that everyone wanted, but it should be a good series. I know I am just gonna watch the games and appreciate good competitive basketball.

N8R
06-01-2009, 12:00 AM
Never would have guessed this Magic team making it to the finals but they did knock off the Celtics and Cavs so i say Magic in 5. take that.

CableKC
06-01-2009, 01:22 AM
I'm gonna hope for the Magic 6.....since they won both of the only games they faced against each other this season against the Lakers.

But I'm gonna regretfully say that it's the Lakers in 6.

xtacy
06-01-2009, 02:50 AM
I'll be rooting for Orlando, but I expect Los Angeles to win.

this.

thefeistyone
06-01-2009, 04:19 AM
I really hope Orlando wins. Kobe isn't any worse to guard that James, but he does have far more help than James had.

The formula Orlando uses is kind of hard to stop. Take an unstoppable big man and surround him with 4 people that can knock down 3's. Orlando uses excellent spacing and move the ball well around the outside. If they shoot as well as they did against cleveland then this series could be interesting.

It really just comes down to how LA can guard Howard. Bynum will probably be in foul trouble quickly. LA won't have the luxury of subbing in Odom at that spot like they did against denver. There's no way he can guard Howard. They'll have to put Gasol on him who has a little bit of a history of being soft. I don't know if that will work.

My prediction is Magic in 6. The lakers have taken several games off during the playoffs. That may cost them this time.

SycamoreKen
06-01-2009, 07:26 AM
How well Howard passes out of the post and stays out of foul trouble will decide this I believe. If he continues to get to do the Shaq push the guy under the basket with my butt and dunk thing then he will be aefective like he was in the last 2 games of the Cavs series. If the refs take that away and he gets in foul trouble then Orlando is toast. I say the Lakers win again.

Unclebuck
06-01-2009, 08:59 AM
I'll go with the Lakers in 6 - although I think it will be a very close series (but the stupid refs never allow it to go 7 games) I give the lakers the advantage because of homecourt advantage and experience - other than those two things it is IMO a dead even series. Magic are a good team, you don't win 59 games without being really good

Major Cold
06-01-2009, 09:23 AM
Have some of you forgotten that Kobe was played extremely well last year by Boston?

Courtney Lee is a better defender than Allen. And Pietrus is this years Posey. This is not going to be a cake walk for the Magic. But the Magic will have no answer for Gasol.

Why don't they play Gortat more? Is it to force the opposing team to go small? I think the key to the series is Bynum. When he gets in foul trouble that moves Gasol to the C and Odom to PF.

Lewis can handle Odom
Howard can handle Gasol

Can Ariza and Walton play Hedo well? A lot of questions.

I say that LA wins both games at home and take 1 of 2 in Orlando. Then they come home for a thriller win in game 5.

Or are they doing the stupid 2-3-2 format?

count55
06-01-2009, 09:51 AM
Have some of you forgotten that Kobe was played extremely well last year by Boston?

Courtney Lee is a better defender than Allen. And Pietrus is this years Posey. This is not going to be a cake walk for the Magic. But the Magic will have no answer for Gasol.

Why don't they play Gortat more? Is it to force the opposing team to go small? I think the key to the series is Bynum. When he gets in foul trouble that moves Gasol to the C and Odom to PF.

Lewis can handle Odom
Howard can handle Gasol

Can Ariza and Walton play Hedo well? A lot of questions.

I say that LA wins both games at home and take 1 of 2 in Orlando. Then they come home for a thriller win in game 5.

Or are they doing the stupid 2-3-2 format?

2-3-2

naptownmenace
06-01-2009, 10:44 AM
Attention David Stern: I love the match up of LA and Orlando so much I'll be wathing the Stanley Cup Finals instead.

Just curious... why would Stern care and what makes you think he had anything to do with who made it to the Finals?


Also, this will still be a very interesting series. The Magic will still pose matchup problems for the Lakers and I think that Orlando has a slightly better bench. It'll be interesting to see who the Lakers match Kobe up against. IMO, Odom definitely needs to start and play well in this series for the Lakers to win. He should match up against Lewis much better than anybody the Celtics or Cavs threw at him.

Here's how the 2 teams compare:

R. Alston > D. Fisher - I give Alston the slight edge because he's done well by really pushing the ball up the floor and putting the defense on their heels.

Kobe > Lee - the rookie will have his hands full but I expect Peitrus will spend a lot of time matched up against Kobe. Still Kobe is the best player left in the playoffs and he won't be stopped.

Turkoglu > Ariza - I like Ariza and his defense but Hedo doesn't have to score a lot to hurt you. He's just as dangerous when he's a facillitator.

Lewis > Odom - Rashard has quieted all that talk about his big contract by playing big when it counts. He's one of the best in the league at working without the ball. Odom's gonna be busy.

Howard > Gasol - Pau hasn't had to play against a Center as dominant as Howard (Yao doesn't count either). Pau will still get his on the offensive end but if Superman gave Varajao fits, I doubt Pau will fare any better. Bynum has more size but is too slow and too green to stay with Howard.

Bench: Orlando vs. LA = TOSS UP - It's basically Pietrus, Johnson, Gortat, Redick, and Battie against Bynum, Farmar, Shannon Brown, Vujacic, and Luke Walton. The Lakers bench has more experience but Orlando's bench has played better throughout the playoffs.



Just looking at matchups, Orlando wins 3 or 4 of the positions depending on how you score Howard/Gortat vs Pau/Bynum. It's not going to be as easy as people think for the Lakers to beat the Magic.

Unclebuck
06-01-2009, 11:32 AM
Can someone tell me how almost averaging 40 points and a triple double in a series is being guarded well? I mean, c'mon, I'm tired of that. Even if he got a majority of the points from the free throw line, that's not good defense. Stan Van Gundy even said they sucked at defending him.

And I don't want to hear the excuse 'THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO AGAINST JESUS JAMES!!!111!!". Because it's obviously not considering he's never averaged that in a series before, or in a regular season series.

I disagree. Really Lebron is that good. I thought the Magic did a nice job on him - he is that good, I guess I'm repeating myself. This isn't the thread for comparing him to some of the alltime greats - plus he needs to win a few championships - but Lebron is really that good

Brad8888
06-01-2009, 12:06 PM
The better overall team is Orlando. The team with experienced playoff leadership is the Lakers. Coaching experience with championship teams matters, but so does having multiple three point threats coupled with an undeniable force inside.

Phil contemplates taking a long motorcycle ride into the sunset, and Jack Nicholson goes home and contemplates a new reality after personally watching Orlando take out his beloved Lakeshow in 6.

grace
06-01-2009, 06:16 PM
Just curious... why would Stern care and what makes you think he had anything to do with who made it to the Finals?

I don't think he had anything to do with who is in the finals. I was attempting to convey the fact that I hate the Lakers and I hate SVG so I'm watching hockey instead. I don't expect anyone to care. I'm just saying I have no intentions of watching one millisecond of the finals.

Kid Minneapolis
06-01-2009, 06:22 PM
I don't think he had anything to do with who is in the finals. I was attempting to convey the fact that I hate the Lakers and I hate SVG so I'm watching hockey instead. I don't expect anyone to care. I'm just saying I have no intentions of watching one millisecond of the finals.

That's too bad; I think it's gonna be a helluva series --- even better than a LA/Cleveland matchup.

grace
06-01-2009, 07:06 PM
That's too bad; I think it's gonna be a helluva series --- even better than a LA/Cleveland matchup.

I'd rather watch Anthony Johnson and Tyronn Lue play HORSE.

count55
06-01-2009, 10:20 PM
This has got to be some trick of the light, or something...

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9982/nbagdwightts1288v.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nbagdwightts1288v.jpg)

Is Bynum really that much bigger than Howard?

(Side Note: Bynum has looked horrific to me in the playoffs. The Lakers had better hope that it's just injury rust that will be off by next season...if not, they're on the hook for an awful lot of money.)

Trader Joe
06-01-2009, 10:50 PM
Series totally depends on which Lakers team shows up. I'll take Magic in 6.

Doddage
06-02-2009, 04:42 AM
Is Bynum really that much bigger than Howard?

(Side Note: Bynum has looked horrific to me in the playoffs. The Lakers had better hope that it's just injury rust that will be off by next season...if not, they're on the hook for an awful lot of money.)
Bynum's standing in front of Howard in the pic, and the pic is taken by someone who is sitting down, giving the illusion that Bynum's bigger than Howard.

And I do think Bynum will be in better shape by the start of next season. I don't believe he's at 100% full strength right now, so he's had trouble doing the things he did before getting injured.

Shade
06-02-2009, 03:02 PM
Word is that Jameer Nelson is going to play. Does this alter anyone's initial predictions?

PacersRule
06-02-2009, 04:54 PM
Word is that Jameer Nelson is going to play. Does this alter anyone's initial predictions?

http://www.nba.com/2009/playoffs2009/06/02/magic.nelson.ap/index.html

Should be interesting...

idioteque
06-02-2009, 05:37 PM
Word is that Jameer Nelson is going to play. Does this alter anyone's initial predictions?

Eh, I think maybe the Magic should stick with what got them here. Sometimes less is more. Hard telling though. I'm not too familiar with Nelson's injury or current condition.

GrangerRanger
06-02-2009, 07:32 PM
Eh, I think maybe the Magic should stick with what got them here. Sometimes less is more. Hard telling though. I'm not too familiar with Nelson's injury or current condition.

I am almost certain it's the same shoulder injury that Wade had a few years back.

Kid Minneapolis
06-02-2009, 07:49 PM
Eh, I think maybe the Magic should stick with what got them here. Sometimes less is more. Hard telling though. I'm not too familiar with Nelson's injury or current condition.

I tend to agree. Unless Nelson comes back just absolutely kicking arse, I'm inclined to stick with Rafer.

Trader Joe
06-02-2009, 07:57 PM
Doesn't kill you to roll Jameer out there in Game 1 and see what he has. He killed the Lakers when they played this year, and is superior in just about every way to Alston.

Kid Minneapolis
06-02-2009, 08:13 PM
Doesn't kill you to roll Jameer out there in Game 1 and see what he has. He killed the Lakers when they played this year, and is superior in just about every way to Alston.

The concern would be rustiness, conditioning, and chemistry. I'm all for him playing if he can prove those won't be an issue. He's obviously a much more dangerous PG than Alston and Johnson when he's 100%.

PacersRule
06-02-2009, 08:26 PM
They should play without Nelson in game 1, see how they match up, and decide from then on. If Magic needs him to win, he can always come off the bench.

Shade
06-02-2009, 08:42 PM
Even injured, Nelson should be a significant upgrade over Goomba off the bench.

Trophy
06-02-2009, 09:02 PM
Obama predicts the Lakers in 6.

http://www.nba.com/2009/playoffs2009/06/02/obama.prediction.ap/index.html

Kemo
06-02-2009, 10:09 PM
Even injured, Nelson should be a significant upgrade over http://haveadayeveryday.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/beetlejuice_closeup.jpg off the bench.

FIXED ..lol

Unclebuck
06-03-2009, 08:30 AM
I don't expect Nelson to make that much of a difference

vnzla81
06-04-2009, 09:26 PM
The Magics are looking good :eek:

Trader Joe
06-04-2009, 09:35 PM
Lakers desperately need a real PG, if Nelson is healthy they are in deep doo-doo.

ABADays
06-04-2009, 09:49 PM
Go Magic!

ABADays
06-04-2009, 09:55 PM
I'll go with the Lakers in 6 - although I think it will be a very close series (but the stupid refs never allow it to go 7 games) I give the lakers the advantage because of homecourt advantage and experience - other than those two things it is IMO a dead even series. Magic are a good team, you don't win 59 games without being really good

Wouldn't the Lakers winning in 6 negate home court advantage?

Sollozzo
06-04-2009, 10:44 PM
I don't think Orlando can win this series, but I still think they'll get 2 games down in Florida.

vnzla81
06-04-2009, 10:51 PM
game over............:(

Sollozzo
06-04-2009, 10:52 PM
As I've said before, I still think Kobe Bryant is the best player in the NBA........

Mr_Smith
06-04-2009, 11:09 PM
As Slick Leonard would say....."Turn out the lights, the party's over." Wouldn't be surprised if the Lakers sweep this series. Kobe has made his point.

DrBadd01
06-04-2009, 11:55 PM
The Magic will win Game 2. Game 1 was not going to go the Magic's way. The Lakers just won by double digits, they will get cocky and lose by underestimating the Magic.

Kid Minneapolis
06-05-2009, 12:16 AM
Maaaaann... that was ugly. And when I say ugly, I'm referring to the Magic's shooting performance. LA played some pretty good D, but the Magic were flat out missing open shots, shots they should've hit. Completely decided the game, and gave LA a ton of rebound opportunities.

And on LA's side... good game, but Kobe --- good God. He absolutely dominated tonight.

Going forward in the series, it's hard to imagine the Magic shooting that poorly again, or Kobe dominating to that degree again... but who knows... what a blowout.

d_c
06-05-2009, 12:16 AM
The Magic just aren't going to be able to enjoy a lot of the advantages they've had in previous series.

They don't have the same mismatch advantages with Lewis and Turkoglu that they had against other teams. Those are gone with the personnel the Lakers have.

And the Lakers have competent enough bigmen that Howard has to respect when Kobe is driving into the lane. He can't give the same kind of help D now as when his man to man responsibility was simply "guarding" Anderson Varejao.

Magic might take a game or two in this series, but I don't see them ultimately threatening the Lakers in any serious way. Maybe if Jameer was healthy and wasn't rusty, but that's just not the case.

Kid Minneapolis
06-05-2009, 12:24 AM
I have a feeling this game's outcome would've been a lot different, at least a lot closer, had Orlando just hit some freakin' shots... it was painful to watch. I can't even say that LA was playing killer defense... Orlando just could not hit the broad side of a barn tonight. They got plenty of good looks. 29% shooting! Maybe some big stage jitters? I mean, they were ALL off... there wasn't one guy who had anything going offensively beyond the 1st quarter. Clang, clang clang, brick, clang, brick...

PacerDude
06-05-2009, 05:30 AM
Orlando looked like the Pacers did in 2000.

"Holy S***, we're in the Finals !!!!"

LA in 6. W-W-L-W-L-W.

Major Cold
06-05-2009, 07:30 AM
Phil Jackson said that they were going to collapse in the paint. Not one shooter was on last night for the Magic. Kobe man handled Pietrus and Lee. He was aggressive and they were not. You have to aggressively attack Kobe like Battier did. Once Kobe got in rhythm it was over with. When Lamar Odom is on, the Lakers are unstoppable.

Unclebuck
06-05-2009, 08:06 AM
First - don't overeact to one game - Lakers played great, and the Magic played horribly.

Yes the magic missed a lot of shots - and some of those shots they normally make. But the Lakers defended the Magic exceedingly well. They crowded, dug down on Howard for the most part and at other times they double-teamed him hard. The biggest difference between the cavs and the Lakers is that the lakers have a ton of size at multiple positions and that enabled them to contain Howard and yet get out to the three point shooters. Lakers defense after the first quarter was just great

One scary thing is Phil Jackon's teams always play better as a series goes along (Obviously not always - but they typically get better as they figure the other team out)

On the other end of the court the Magic's defense defended Kobe pretty well - but that was one of the best games I have ever seen Kobe play. One huge difference between the cavs and the lakers is that the Lakers have an excellent inside game with their very skilled big players

Trader Joe
06-05-2009, 08:18 AM
Impressive game from Kobe, but it's tough to imagine the Magic shooting 30% from the field again.

Kid Minneapolis
06-05-2009, 11:42 AM
But the Lakers defended the Magic exceedingly well. They crowded, dug down on Howard for the most part and at other times they double-teamed him hard.

They were able to do that, because the outside shooters weren't hitting any outside shots and thus failed to spread the Lakers defense out, allowing them to collapse down on Howard.

vnzla81
06-07-2009, 09:58 PM
Orlando is playing better today, good game.

Big Smooth
06-07-2009, 10:16 PM
Rashard Lewis is pure fire tonight. 27 points so far.

Sollozzo
06-07-2009, 10:35 PM
Lewis is playing awesome.

Year One looks like a crappy movie. I get tired of ABC/ESPN whoring itself out to movie promotions.

Big Smooth
06-07-2009, 10:35 PM
Huge shot by Turkoglu. Say what you will, that man is not afraid to take the big shots.

Big Smooth
06-07-2009, 10:38 PM
That is tough. Lee had a good luck at that but you'd almost rather Lewis or Turkoglu be taking the shot.

Kid Minneapolis
06-07-2009, 10:40 PM
Kobe had a couple of fortuitious home calls down the stretch... game should be over and an Orlando V instead of going to OT.

Big Smooth
06-07-2009, 10:41 PM
Dang Kobe you got stuffed by Hedo. LOL.

Kstat
06-07-2009, 10:41 PM
credit to the referees tonight. They put the whistles away in the last 3 minutes and let the players decide the game.

Both Hedo and Kobe could have spent the end of the game shooting FTs. THis is much better.

Kid Minneapolis
06-07-2009, 10:43 PM
credit to the referees tonight. They put the whistles away in the last 3 minutes and let the players decide the game.

Both Hedo and Kobe could have spent the end of the game shooting FTs. THis is much better.

Too bad they kinda sucked leading up to that 3 minutes... bad calls goin' both ways... but Kobe got 4-6 FTs off BS.

Big Smooth
06-07-2009, 10:44 PM
Magic have time for a catch and shoot here. Interesting.

Kstat
06-07-2009, 10:44 PM
ill be shocked if they dont try another lob pass to howard.

Kstat
06-07-2009, 10:45 PM
...or a lob pass to courtney lee...

that would have been the most incredible game-winner in NBA Finals history. Shame.

Big Smooth
06-07-2009, 10:46 PM
...or a lob pass to courtney lee...

that would have been the most incredible game-winner in NBA Finals history. Shame.

Yeah he had a real nice look at that but Gasol managed to recover enough to distract the shot.

Sollozzo
06-07-2009, 10:46 PM
That would've been awesome.

Feel bad for Lee, he missed 2 big opportunities.

Kstat
06-07-2009, 10:53 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why JJ Reddick is in this game. Courtney Lee is a much better player, and Reddick so far has missed most of his shots an turned the ball over at crucial times.

vnzla81
06-07-2009, 10:54 PM
nice game............I think is over, Lakers up by 6

Kid Minneapolis
06-07-2009, 10:56 PM
The team that ties it at the end of regulation almost always seems to win it in OT.

Kid Minneapolis
06-07-2009, 10:57 PM
LA wins this, and it's pretty much series over... if Orlando wins, it's a whole new series.

Kid Minneapolis
06-07-2009, 10:57 PM
I think Orlando made a big mistake not getting Gasol fouled out a long time ago. He's been playing with 5 fouls for far too long.

vnzla81
06-07-2009, 11:00 PM
I think Orlando made a big mistake not getting Gasol fouled out a long time ago. He's been playing with 5 fouls for far too long.

Odom is also close I think is 5 or 4 fouls

vnzla81
06-07-2009, 11:03 PM
Van Gundy is really good at calling last second plays, that was nice

Kstat
06-07-2009, 11:06 PM
JJ Reddick....just wow.

Again I have to ask, why is he on the floor?

1/6 shooting and that back-breaking turnover in OT.

Jameer Nelson and Courtney Lee are sitting on the bench in favor of this guy?

Stan looked like he choked in this one. The Lakers were very beatable tonight and he kept making poor decisions, most notably Gortat at PF and Reddick at PG.

Big Smooth
06-07-2009, 11:08 PM
JJ Reddick....just wow.

Again I have to ask, why is he on the floor?

Dicky V is really coaching Orlando?

Trader Joe
06-07-2009, 11:10 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why JJ Reddick is in this game. Courtney Lee is a much better player, and Reddick so far has missed most of his shots an turned the ball over at crucial times.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?
Is Bigfoot real?
Is Shade Jerryd Bayless and is Count55 David Morway?

Like the rest of these questions the world may never know why JJ Redick was on the court tonight.

Kstat
06-07-2009, 11:11 PM
That's laker-hate talking.

I might not like the Lakers, but I'm also not going to cry conspiracy when they win because I didn't get the result I wanted. That sense of entitlement is no different than what Laker fans are so famously accused of.

Orlando was committing legit playoff fouls at the rim in that overtime. You'd have to be blind NOT to call them.

Orlando meanwhile was taking fadaway jumpers all OT, with the exception of Howard catching the ball under the rim for the and-1.

Trader Joe
06-07-2009, 11:13 PM
Also, I think you have run that lob for Dwight Howard instead of Courtney Lee. Yeah maybe everyone knows that is coming but once Dwight is in the air no one on the Lakers is jumping with him.

Hedo played brilliantly tonight. His defense on Kobe late on the game was awesome.

pizza guy
06-07-2009, 11:16 PM
Was it just me or did it seem like the Lakers were given the game in the last minute or two by the refs. If I recall correctly the refs called 4 or 5 fouls on Orlando and one foul on the Magic. Gotta give Kobe his Shaqless ring. . . . .:rolleyes:


That's a whole new level of bad for refs.

:laugh:

But seriously, I really dislike the Lakers. Too bad they're going to win another championship. I think what really bugs me is Phil Jackson passing Red for number of rings for a coach. And the fact that it's the Lakers. :censored:

Kstat
06-07-2009, 11:16 PM
Turkoglu and Howard combined for as many turnovers as the entire Laker team.

Start Jameer Nelson and get it over with. Or they can continue with Alston and Reddick bricking shots and not finding anybody open.

Kstat
06-07-2009, 11:18 PM
Yes I am biased towards Orlando. Just like I didn't want Lebron wining anything I don't want Kobe to win anything either. I want a team to win the title not a player who is way too over publicized. One has lost one SHOULD lose.

Yes. How dare Kobe and Lebron play so well that they attract so much attention. They should be ashamed of themselves. It's their fault for being so talented.

Trader Joe
06-07-2009, 11:18 PM
Turkoglu and Howard combined for as many turnovers as the entire Laker team.

Start Jameer Nelson and get it over with.

Or at least play him over JJ Redick late in the game.

Trader Joe
06-07-2009, 11:19 PM
Yes I am biased towards Orlando. Just like I didn't want Lebron winning anything I don't want Kobe to win anything either. I want a team to win the title not a player who is way too over publicized. One has lost one SHOULD lose.

...Every team that is very good is built around a star. Some are better than others. I don't know what makes them any less of a team. Kobe doesn't win this game without Odom and Gasol.

Trader Joe
06-07-2009, 11:21 PM
Talent comes easy when you have the refs on your side.

Some of you are way too paranoid. I'd like examples of all these late game calls that went against Orlando. In regulation, the refs totally swallowed their whistles. The only late game foul in OT that sticks out is Gasol's and1 which was a foul.

Trader Joe
06-07-2009, 11:26 PM
Sure, erase the post. Whatever, some of you can't enjoy a good basketball game because you are always thinking the refs are out to get one team. It's really ridiculous.

DrBadd01
06-07-2009, 11:29 PM
Thank you for your insightful comments about me deleting my posts. I appreciate your input and will consider it in the future when deleting other posts. As always I am looking to improve my input on this forum any feedback is always greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post about me deleting my posts as they are always so insightful. But until then thank you for your opinion about me deleting my posts.

Trader Joe
06-07-2009, 11:34 PM
ok. whatever you say.

Why do you even watch the games if you just think the refs are out to make sure Kobe gets the ring? I don't think I would waste my time watching something I thought was fixed, but hey that's just me.

DrBadd01
06-07-2009, 11:41 PM
Thank you for your insightful comments about me watching the games. I appreciate your input and will consider it in the future when watching other basketball games. As always I am looking to improve my input on this forum any feedback is always greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post about me watching sporting events as they are always so insightful. But until then thank you for your opinion about me watching basketball games.

Mr_Smith
06-08-2009, 12:54 AM
I'm not a big Kobe fan and at the same time I'm not a Kobe hater, but I do realize he is the best and he's the closet to Michael Jordan that it will ever be. The lakers are the better team, they will win the series in 5 and thats just the way it will be. The refs didn't decide game 2.....Kobe, Gasol, and Odom decided it, so please take that conspiracy bullcrap elsewhere. How many times did Dwight Howard lose the ball when they passed it to him in the post?? I lost count.

DrBadd01
06-08-2009, 01:01 AM
I'm not a big Kobe fan and at the same time I'm not a Kobe hater, but I do realize he is the best and he's the closet to Michael Jordan that it will ever be. The lakers are the better team, they will win the series in 5 and thats just the way it will be. The refs didn't decide game 2.....Kobe, Gasol, and Odom decided it, so please take that conspiracy bullcrap elsewhere. How many times did Dwight Howard lose the ball when they passed it to him in the post?? I lost count.

Thank you for your insightful comments about about "conspiracy bullcrap" . I appreciate your input and will consider it in the future when discussing "conspiracy bullcrap". As always I am looking to improve my input on this forum any feedback is always greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post about "conspiracy bullcrap" as they are always so insightful. But until then thank you for your opinion about "conspiracy bullcrap".

Sollozzo
06-08-2009, 01:25 AM
This series is over. The Magic aren't going to beat this team 4 out of 5 times when Kobe can sniff the title.

They desperately needed this game tonight. They controlled the tempo of the series against Boston and Cleveland by taking one of the first 2 on the other teams floor.

SoupIsGood
06-08-2009, 01:48 AM
Thank you for your insightful comments about about "conspiracy bullcrap" . I appreciate your input and will consider it in the future when discussing "conspiracy bullcrap". As always I am looking to improve my input on this forum any feedback is always greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post about "conspiracy bullcrap" as they are always so insightful. But until then thank you for your opinion about "conspiracy bullcrap".


Dude.... wth?

kester99
06-08-2009, 02:08 AM
Both teams played hard.

Kstat
06-08-2009, 02:40 AM
accusing the lakers of being any less of a "team" than Orlando is petty and childish, and the lame cut-and-paste responses just emphasize that.

TMJ31
06-08-2009, 02:54 AM
Now I will make no attempts to hide that this is a VERY biased assertion... I *loathe* the Lakers more than any other NBA team.

But to be honest, Pau's defense on Lee on the last second regulation shot was a goaltend by NBA definition.

He made clear contact with the rim and/or net during a shot attempt.

Game Orlando--- unfortunately Stern would never have the balls to actually own up to it and award the Magic the win.

Shame, now the Fakers will have another title, which highly depresses this Los Angeles based Pacers fan...

Mr_Smith
06-08-2009, 03:15 AM
lol @ the cut and paste responses:laugh:

vnzla81
06-08-2009, 06:32 AM
Why do you even watch the games if you just think the refs are out to make sure Kobe gets the ring? I don't think I would waste my time watching something I thought was fixed, but hey that's just me.

I been asking this question to my self for a long time, if I thought the game was fixed I would be watching something else, hell I would not even be a Pacers fan because I knew there was not chance for them to win a Championship.

Unclebuck
06-08-2009, 08:54 AM
I don't really hate or love the Lakers. I do think the crowd at lakers game is pretty dead - they only get into it when the home teams gets on a long run, but I will say I love their PA announcer - no screaming, no weird phrases.

I agree that the Magic needed to win this game for them to have a decent chance of winning this series, but I think the Magic will likely win two games in Orlando and push it back to LA.

Mostly though I'm happy that we got a good game - after a terrible game 1 and a lackluster first half, game 2 was a lot of fun to watch. Lakers defense is playing extremely well - there is a reason the Magic are turning the ball over.

Kstat, I know you are railing against Redick - but I like him as a player - he didn't play a great game last night, but I think he's a lot better than most peoiple seem to think - maybe it is the built in Duke biastry

Sollozzo
06-08-2009, 10:34 AM
I don't really hate or love the Lakers. I do think the crowd at lakers game is pretty dead - they only get into it when the home teams gets on a long run, but I will say I love their PA announcer - no screaming, no weird phrases.


Yeah, Lawrence Tanter is a great PA man. He's kind of the Bob Sheppard of the NBA.

Shade
06-08-2009, 11:10 AM
I can't believe the Lakers are going to win the title. ****ing Cavs. :mad:

I've actually paid very little attention to this series because I didn't feel the Magic had much chance. Still looks like the Lakers in 6 to me.

ChicagoJ
06-08-2009, 11:22 AM
I thought, with about four minutes in regulation, there were several "close" calls in a row against Orlando helped put the Lakers in a position to force overtime or perhaps win in regulation. I'm talking about the Pietrius foul in the lane (where Howard blocked the shot) - nearly no contact at all between Petrius and Bryant, then the offensive foul on Hedo where there was minimal contact and then the defensive foul on Hedo where Bryant's left foot slipped out from under him and there was no contact.

I had no problem at all with any of the calls in the last 2:30 of regulation or the OT. But those three calls, when it seemed Orlando was playing solid defense and might be in position to stretch their slim lead were momentum changing. And frankly, they should all have been no-calls. As you know, I'm okay with a tight whistle for actual contact - I think the "swallow the whistle" approach generally gives an unfair advantage to the defense. But there had better be contact when the whistle is blown, not a "phantom" foul.

ChicagoJ
06-08-2009, 11:23 AM
I can't believe the Lakers are going to win the title. ****ing Cavs. :mad:

I've actually paid very little attention to this series because I didn't feel the Magic had much chance. Still looks like the Lakers in 6 to me.

Its not going back to LA. Mentally, the Magic are overwhelmed and the Lakers are playing with Phil-Jackson-trademark mental toughness.

The Magic will be happy to just win a NBA Finals game. That will be a good accomplishment for them.

Kstat
06-08-2009, 11:58 AM
Now I will make no attempts to hide that this is a VERY biased assertion... I *loathe* the Lakers more than any other NBA team.

But to be honest, Pau's defense on Lee on the last second regulation shot was a goaltend by NBA definition.

He made clear contact with the rim and/or net during a shot attempt.

Game Orlando--- unfortunately Stern would never have the balls to actually own up to it and award the Magic the win.

Shame, now the Fakers will have another title, which highly depresses this Los Angeles based Pacers fan...

Again, the rule is that you must AFFECT the basket, not just touch the rim. That means vibrating the backboard or pulling at the rim. Gasol did neither.

...and the commissioner should "step in and award Orlando the win?"

Again, pretty biased comment. Sounds like anti-laker entitlement to me.

Shade
06-08-2009, 12:11 PM
Its not going back to LA. Mentally, the Magic are overwhelmed and the Lakers are playing with Phil-Jackson-trademark mental toughness.

The Magic will be happy to just win a NBA Finals game. That will be a good accomplishment for them.

Possibly, but I'm still keeping the Dallas/Miami series in my head to hang onto a little shred of hope. If the Magic can manage to hold home court, it could seriously rattle the Lakers. Big "if," but you never know.

Unclebuck
06-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Now I will make no attempts to hide that this is a VERY biased assertion... I *loathe* the Lakers more than any other NBA team.

But to be honest, Pau's defense on Lee on the last second regulation shot was a goaltend by NBA definition.

He made clear contact with the rim and/or net during a shot attempt.

Game Orlando--- unfortunately Stern would never have the balls to actually own up to it and award the Magic the win.

Shame, now the Fakers will have another title, which highly depresses this Los Angeles based Pacers fan...

That was maybe a questionable call - could be argued either way - I've seen something similar called goaltending. But what about the obvious and clear goaltending committed by Howard in the first half, when his entire hand went up through the basket and knocked Gasol's shot out of the basket. Now that was obvious

Trader Joe
06-08-2009, 01:51 PM
Thank you for your insightful comments about me watching the games. I appreciate your input and will consider it in the future when watching other basketball games. As always I am looking to improve my input on this forum any feedback is always greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post about me watching sporting events as they are always so insightful. But until then thank you for your opinion about me watching basketball games.

Wow...just wow.

Trader Joe
06-08-2009, 01:53 PM
If they called a goaltend every time the net was touched in a NBA game while a shot was on the rim, that would be happening quite a bit.

Lee's shot wasn't going in regardless of what happened, he put it up way too strong and has no one to blame but himself.

I swear this is the NBA, this is the big boy's league. If you can't make a layup you can't make a layup, you don't deserve to have someone come along and hold your hand and say, "It's ok big bad Pau came and touched the net a little we're gonna give this to you." If they had called goal tending on that, would you be in here screaming that the refs wanted the Magic to win? Or is it just because it's the Lakers you have this opinion?

Major Cold
06-08-2009, 02:11 PM
I thought Kobe grabbed at him and slowed him down more so than Gasol interfering with the shot.

And I agree with ChicagoJ about the momentum change. Those were no calls. But since they called them that should have set the president for the entire game, thus tagging Kobe with a lose ball foul on Lee.

Unclebuck
06-08-2009, 02:57 PM
I sense no one really cares about the TV ratings, but I do. I get sick of so many people saying the NBA is not what it used to be, no one likes the NBA anymore, and this year all the talk that no one will watch if it isn't the lakers vs cavs.

Ratings for game 1 and game two were both the highest since 2004.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/06/08/game-one-of-nba-finals-averages-13-million-posts-highest-prime-time-numbers-for-game-1-since-2004/20295


http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/06/08/game-2-of-nba-finals-averages-14-million-in-preliminary-fast-nationals-from-8p-1112p/20297

TMJ31
06-08-2009, 05:04 PM
As I said in my post:

I am not attempting to hide that I have a passionate anti-laker bias.

With that being said, a rule is still a rule... That defense by Gasol would have likely been called a goaltend in a non-playoff/non-game-ending situation.

As UB said, there have been times where that exact call in that exact situation HAS been made.

Would the call have been made if it had been Howard "defending" a shot by Kobe to win at the buzzer... You're damn right it would have!

No one can convince me otherwise, the consistent proof of these types of biased calls is overwhelming.

GO!!!!!
06-08-2009, 06:00 PM
Chicago made some great points... and I agree, I watched the first half and the last 5 min of the game ( not the OT )

I thought the Turk Offensive foul was a mockery, sure there was a little push of but enough for a potential game changing call, considering the Magic team was pushed around the two minutes proir with some solid full court pressure I feel it should have been a non-call..

Also being Petries 5th or Sixth foul on that drive when Howard blocked Bryants Layup proved pretty crucial..

The Lakers played Physical D the last 5 minutes, I'll give them that, if Lee's first layup with 30 seconds to go went in, it could all have been different..

PacerDude
06-08-2009, 06:10 PM
Bill Simmons has some interesting stuff (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090608&sportCat=nba)to say about the officiating.

Yes, it's humor, but a lot of truth lies in it.

Young
06-08-2009, 06:14 PM
It's amazing because since Orlando hasn't won a game you hear the announcers talk about Howard needing a post move and Reddick playing the point, etc.

When it comes down to it though Orlando has played **** poor basketball and they could/should have won game 2. Even with getting little-no production out of their point guards and with Howard not exactly at his best. Lee and Pietrus have struggled as well. Yet the Magic were one point away from winning game two in regulation.

The Magic just are not shooting the ball well. If they were shooting the ball just a little bit better this is a much more interesting series.

Trader Joe
06-08-2009, 06:20 PM
I just want to make sure that everyone realizes Dwight Howard received the most votes to the All Star game this year...not Lebron, not Kobe, Dwight Howard. Everyone is acting like Orlando doesn't have a superstar to get these calls. They do. The simple fact is, the Lakers were aggressive the last five minutes of that game and OT and the Magic were not. A big part of this was...
1.) Howard has come crashing back to earth offensively.
2.) They had no real PG out there and were relying on Hedo to, defend Kobe, bring the ball up the court, and make pretty much every important pass offensively.

Simple fact is, Kobe has been around these parts, he knows that late in a game all eyes on him, if he gets even a little contact the whistle is coming. Howard could get the same thing. He simply doesn't want the ball badly enough.

Trader Joe
06-08-2009, 06:24 PM
It's amazing because since Orlando hasn't won a game you hear the announcers talk about Howard needing a post move and Reddick playing the point, etc.

When it comes down to it though Orlando has played **** poor basketball and they could/should have won game 2. Even with getting little-no production out of their point guards and with Howard not exactly at his best. Lee and Pietrus have struggled as well. Yet the Magic were one point away from winning game two in regulation.

The Magic just are not shooting the ball well. If they were shooting the ball just a little bit better this is a much more interesting series.

Rashard Lewis is shooting the ball pretty well...

QuickRelease
06-08-2009, 06:47 PM
Bill Simmons has some interesting stuff (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090608&sportCat=nba)to say about the officiating.

Yes, it's humor, but a lot of truth lies in it.

Rashard Lewis is playing so out of his mind right now (8-for-13 FGs, 18 points in the second quarter) that the Lakers just triple-teamed him, leading to an easy Jameer Nelson drive and a foul on Greg Oden (wearing an Andrew Bynum costume in the Finals).

Howard gets stripped down low to start OT and officially has a "Crap, that move worked when Ben Wallace and that giant ugly Lithuanian dude were guarding me" look on his face. Not a strong Finals for Superman.

These were the 2 best lines in the Simmons piece. That part about Oden was brilliant..lol. :laugh:

Will we ever figure out why SVG messed with the chemistry of an eight-man Orlando unit that was CLEARLY peaking after the Cleveland series? I don't care if Jameer Nelson is better ... you can't risk it. Give him Anthony Johnson's 10 minutes a game, and that's it. Rafer Alston is more fragile than the token model on "Survivor" every season. You can't yank his playing time around. How did SVG not know this?

Simmons was spot on about the Nelson move.

Young
06-08-2009, 10:16 PM
Rashard Lewis is shooting the ball pretty well...

This is true but really only him and Hedo have. What is really killing them is their guard play.

PacerDude
06-09-2009, 08:56 PM
Why do the west coast games start at 8 locally, but east coast games start at 9 ??

count55
06-09-2009, 09:01 PM
Why do the west coast games start at 8 locally, but east coast games start at 9 ??

The game Sunday started at 8 because it was on Sunday. Game one, played on Thursday, started at 9 pm.

The 9 pm start is for the West Coast, where it's a 6 pm start.

MrSparko
06-09-2009, 09:38 PM
I just want to make sure that everyone realizes Dwight Howard received the most votes to the All Star game this year...not Lebron, not Kobe, Dwight Howard. Everyone is acting like Orlando doesn't have a superstar to get these calls. They do. The simple fact is, the Lakers were aggressive the last five minutes of that game and OT and the Magic were not. A big part of this was...
1.) Howard has come crashing back to earth offensively.
2.) They had no real PG out there and were relying on Hedo to, defend Kobe, bring the ball up the court, and make pretty much every important pass offensively.

Simple fact is, Kobe has been around these parts, he knows that late in a game all eyes on him, if he gets even a little contact the whistle is coming. Howard could get the same thing. He simply doesn't want the ball badly enough.

Howard has the most votes because second place at the center position in the East is a gap wider than the Grand Canyon.

vnzla81
06-09-2009, 11:41 PM
good game for Orlando, is nice to have a good NBA final

duke dynamite
06-10-2009, 12:42 AM
Good for Orlando.

Unclebuck
06-10-2009, 08:53 AM
Magic played a great game - their offense sort of looked like it does when they play the Pacers. - Impossible to stop. Kobe missed a few free throws and made a few mistakes down the stretch of the game. Just think if the Magic would have won game 2

rexnom
06-10-2009, 09:15 AM
So the Magic shoot an NBA Finals record 62.5% and win by 4...and this is good news? So basically, to barely beat the Lakers, the Magic have to shoot out of their mind (even for them), the Lakers have to play terrible, terrible defense (won't happen again) and the Lakers (including Kobe Bryant) have to choke.

Eh. I'm still rolling with the Lakers in 5 or 6 on this one.

Unclebuck
06-10-2009, 09:24 AM
So the Magic shoot an NBA Finals record 62.5% and win by 4...and this is good news? So basically, to barely beat the Lakers, the Magic have to shoot out of their mind (even for them), the Lakers have to play terrible, terrible defense (won't happen again) and the Lakers (including Kobe Bryant) have to choke.

Eh. I'm still rolling with the Lakers in 5 or 6 on this one.

Not really - look at game #2

Slick Pinkham
06-10-2009, 09:26 AM
The margin of error for a jump-shooting team is always vanishingly small. When we played the Lakers in the finals, you always knew they would get more points in the paint, more fast break points, more rebounds, and more shots overall. We all just just hoped we'd make a high enough percentage to win anyway and avoid turning the ball over to give them yet another intrinsic advantage.

The Magic don't quite face the disadvantages the Pacers did in 1999-2000 (like coping with Shaq), but it certainly reminds me of that in terms of really needing to hit jumpers because that is the strength of everyone on the team except Howard.

Shade
06-10-2009, 09:27 AM
Not really - look at game #2

That's what I was gonna say.

Shade
06-10-2009, 09:31 AM
Phil Jackson says Gasol goal-tended at the end of Game 2:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4246830

ChicagoJ
06-10-2009, 10:30 AM
So the Magic play nearly flawlessly, shot a record percentage, keep Kobe in check, have Kobe miss FTs, and the officials don't give Kobe a crazy amount of "superstar"/ phantom calls. And win by 4.

Lakers in 5.

The crack in the Magic's mental toughness really showed - for the second game in a row - from the 7 minute mark to the 3 minute mark in the fourth quarter. The Lakers are just tougher mentally, and will outplay the Magic down the stretch. As long as they're within 10 points going into the fourth quarter, they'll be okay. In the unlikely event the Magic can blow them out of a game (like the Pacers did to the Lakers in Game #5 in 2000), then maybe there will be a game six.

:censored:

rexnom
06-10-2009, 10:57 AM
Not really - look at game #2


That's what I was gonna say.
But the Lakers won! Even though they played as badly as I've seen them play in these playoffs.

owl
06-10-2009, 11:09 AM
The margin of error for a jump-shooting team is always vanishingly small. When we played the Lakers in the finals, you always knew they would get more points in the paint, more fast break points, more rebounds, and more shots overall. We all just just hoped we'd make a high enough percentage to win anyway and avoid turning the ball over to give them yet another intrinsic advantage.

The Magic don't quite face the disadvantages the Pacers did in 1999-2000 (like coping with Shaq), but it certainly reminds me of that in terms of really needing to hit jumpers because that is the strength of everyone on the team except Howard.

Very good observations and that is the reason I always pine for bigmen inside.
That is where championships are won. Most everyone has jump shooters, not everyone
is dominant inside.

Unclebuck
06-10-2009, 11:12 AM
But the Lakers won! Even though they played as badly as I've seen them play in these playoffs.

The Lakers shot 51% which is pretty good. Kobe played a great second quarter which kep the Lakers pretty close.

J - I think the Magic were really tight down the stretch of the game last night because they knew if they lost the series would be over. If the same situation presents itself in the next game - magic up 8 or 9 with 7 minutes let - I don't think the Magic will be so tight. But as i was watching the game in the 4th quarter I really expected the lakers to win (and they would have if Kobe does what he usually does) But the Lakers were getting good shots and the Magic were having trouble getting decent shots.

No doubt the Lakers are a better team with the best player in the series - so they will win, but the

Major Cold
06-10-2009, 11:17 AM
I am encouraged watching these finals. We most likely will never have a superstar. But man just look at how the Magic do play. Pietrus, Lee, Hedo, and Lewis are not superstars but they emerge at the right time to win this game. Of course they get those oppurtunities because Howard is the biggest decoy in the world.

Howard may have been the #1 vote getter for the All-star game, but he is not a superstar yet. He is still raw on offense and yet to be a game changer in the biggest stage for basketball.

I was impressed with Lee's defense in the 3rd quarter. Kobe has been stellar in this quarter and Lee shook him out of rhythm and the offense was slowed.


How about Odom's defense? Man he has come alive in the Finals.

I bet that the Magic are shocked at what Ariza is doing. He was pitiful for them on the perimeter. They tried him at multiple positions be he just never clicked. Ariza's outside shot is consistent. He will be getting a big pay raise and if the Lakers sign him, this team will be good for years to come, unless Kobe opts out.

Shade
06-10-2009, 11:32 AM
So the Lakers goal-tended on the last play of regulation, at home, to send it to OT. And win by 5.

Magic in 5.

Fixed. ;)

Seriously, though, the Magic have one hell of an uphill battle to climb, but it's not insurmountable. I'm sure they'd be quite happy with 4 one-point wins if that's what it takes.

ChicagoJ
06-10-2009, 11:33 AM
J - I think the Magic were really tight down the stretch of the game last night because they knew if they lost the series would be over. If the same situation presents itself in the next game - magic up 8 or 9 with 7 minutes let - I don't think the Magic will be so tight. But as i was watching the game in the 4th quarter I really expected the lakers to win (and they would have if Kobe does what he usually does) But the Lakers were getting good shots and the Magic were having trouble getting decent shots.

I thought they looked tighter in Game #2 in LA. I think its a trend - they're young, they have no NBA Finals experience and the Lakers do have a lot of NBA Finals experience. They're overmatched mentally/ in the "toughness" department. They'll probably be back on this stage in the future, but right now they are overwhelmed when the third quarter ends and the game really gets tough.

Shade
06-10-2009, 11:36 AM
But the Lakers won! Even though they played as badly as I've seen them play in these playoffs.

According to Phil Jackson, they shouldn't have won that game.

SoupIsGood
06-10-2009, 01:19 PM
Dwight blocked the hell out of that Kobe drive to the hoop near the dead, what a beast. I was a pretty sad they called that a foul.

rexnom
06-10-2009, 04:08 PM
According to Phil Jackson, they shouldn't have won that game.
Exactly! But they did...what does that tell you?

Kid Minneapolis
06-10-2009, 05:16 PM
Howard may have been the #1 vote getter for the All-star game, but he is not a superstar yet. He is still raw on offense and yet to be a game changer in the biggest stage for basketball.


Correct, and yet not totally in context... he was likely the #1 vote-getter for 2 reasons: 1) because he *is* pretty damn good, and 2) because there was very little competition at the Center position in the East vote, not because he was most popular player period. That's just how it worked out. You gotta consider that votes get split amongst everyone at the position, and there's a lot more talent at the other positions; Howard is pretty much "it" in terms of eastern big men.

"Superstar" is subjective to how you define a superstar. Carmelo is considered a superstar, and hasn't been a "game changer in the biggest stage for basketball" --- he hasn't even got there. Howard *was* a massive game changer in the Eastern conference finals, which is a pretty damn big stage.

He's 23... he's a pup. And he's facing a team led by Kobe Bryant, who is 7 years older, an arguable top 25 player all-time, and is absolutely in his prime... whereas Howard is still very much in the earlier stages of his career.

vnzla81
06-11-2009, 11:41 PM
best game of the series( I think) ........

Kstat
06-11-2009, 11:46 PM
Dwight 1 block away from the most amazing triple-double in finals history.

vnzla81
06-11-2009, 11:51 PM
this is maybe going to overtime, Kobe time....... yeah I call this one..:D

ilive4sports
06-12-2009, 12:13 AM
The Magic have given the Lakers 2 games in this series...

Sollozzo
06-12-2009, 12:18 AM
Wow, Orlando crapped that game away.

But credit to DFish, he took advantage of the opportunity Orlando gave to the Lakers.

jeffg-body
06-12-2009, 12:27 AM
I am so shocked at Orlando's inability to hit free throws. They had this game sealed and done.

I can't believe the reaction from Gasol on the push in the back either. After the no call on the Kobe elbow and the way he celebrated after the put down he got on that tip out I think he got off lucky. If he'd have done that on the Pacer's home court when the Davis brothers ruled the paint he may be picking up some chicklets off of the floor. I wish it had been Howard who pushed him in the back. It would have been interesting to see if he would have had the same reaction.:whistle:

SycamoreKen
06-12-2009, 12:36 AM
The question now is, does Orlando grow from this like LA did from theirs last year or are they a one year wonder?

croz24
06-12-2009, 12:42 AM
still don't understand how dwight howard is not overrated...this is the 2nd game in the finals alone he's lost for orlando, and i just don't understand how people can overlook how good hedo, lewis, and nelson are. those three are the ones who get dwight his wide open dunks. yes, dwight has the potential to be great, but he's got a lot to learn about the game before he should even be mentioned with the likes of shaq, wilt, russell, etc.

Sollozzo
06-12-2009, 12:46 AM
still don't understand how dwight howard is not overrated...this is the 2nd game in the finals alone he's lost for orlando, and i just don't understand how people can overlook how good hedo, lewis, and nelson are. those three are the ones who get dwight his wide open dunks. yes, dwight has the potential to be great, but he's got a lot to learn about the game before he should even be mentioned with the likes of shaq, wilt, russell, etc.

I agree. He owns the defensive end of the court, but his offensive is painful to watch at times.

ChicagoJ
06-12-2009, 12:49 AM
Wow, Orlando crapped that game away.

But credit to DFish, he took advantage of the opportunity Orlando gave to the Lakers.

Was just having an argument with somebody in the real world - my position was that Derek was more "clutch" than Kobe. His position was that I was out of my f:censored:king mind.

I hate being right.

GrangerRanger
06-12-2009, 01:03 AM
I am so shocked at Orlando's inability to hit free throws. They had this game sealed and done.

I can't believe the reaction from Gasol on the push in the back either. After the no call on the Kobe elbow and the way he celebrated after the put down he got on that tip out I think he got off lucky. If he'd have done that on the Pacer's home court when the Davis brothers ruled the paint he may be picking up some chicklets off of the floor. I wish it had been Howard who pushed him in the back. It would have been interesting to see if he would have had the same reaction.:whistle:

Don't pull that card.

Orlando shot like 20 free throws to 2 in the Fourth and OT combined. And the two LA shot were with 3.4 left.

Unclebuck
06-12-2009, 08:23 AM
still don't understand how dwight howard is not overrated...this is the 2nd game in the finals alone he's lost for orlando, and i just don't understand how people can overlook how good hedo, lewis, and nelson are. those three are the ones who get dwight his wide open dunks. yes, dwight has the potential to be great, but he's got a lot to learn about the game before he should even be mentioned with the likes of shaq, wilt, russell, etc.

I have never seen Wilt or Russell play and if I haven't seen them play I don't discuss them. Shaq has certainly missed a greater number of free throws in a game than Howard did last night.

On the overrated thing. First I would need to know how he is rated. He did have 9 blocks and 21 rebounds - that is pretty good and up until last night he had been hitting his free throws pretty well. If you are suggesting that he us rated as one of the best centers of all time - then sure he is way overrated. Afterall he is only what 23 years old - at that age most of the other alltime great centers were either rookies or just entering the NBA draft. If you are rating Howard as the best center in the NBA right now - no, I don't think he is overrated. Actually last night's game was his best in this series - he was very effective.

Trader Joe
06-12-2009, 08:27 AM
Was just having an argument with somebody in the real world - my position was that Derek was more "clutch" than Kobe. His position was that I was out of my f:censored:king mind.

I hate being right.

I read or heard somewhere (maybe from Simmons?) I can't remember that Kobe was like 14/56 or something absurd like that on game winning or tying shots in the past few years. I can't remember where I saw it, but that number is sticking out in my head.

Whoever it was made the point that they believed Kobe was a great streak scorer, but not exactly the clutch player he is made to be today.

Yep, it was Simmons.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090608&sportCat=nba


Important note: Kobe's reputation as a "killer" at the end of games remains overblown. The site www.82games.com just posted a study of game-winning shots from the last five-plus seasons (regular seasons and playoffs since the 2003-04 season) that revealed Kobe was shooting 14-for-56 (25 percent) with one assist and five turnovers, and made 12 of 15 free throws. So let's say that was 70 possessions total, including Sunday night. ... He only had one assist in nearly six years??? That's why Orlando quadruple-teamed him in that spot. Kobe is a phenomenal streak shooter, and he has a real talent for catching fire with a lead and closing games out ... but you can stop him in one-shot situations simply because he's his own worst enemy. He wants to be a hero, he's shooting it, and that's that.

Unclebuck
06-12-2009, 09:01 AM
I think last night's game came down to experience - the lakers have it the the Magic don't. Keep in mind until this year this Magic team had never won a playoff series.

Kstat
06-12-2009, 11:28 AM
It came down to Nick Anderson doing the home introductions. That would be like the Red Sox having Bill Buckner throw out the first pitch before a world series game.

Stupid. stupid, stupid.

Kid Minneapolis
06-12-2009, 11:39 AM
still don't understand how dwight howard is not overrated...this is the 2nd game in the finals alone he's lost for orlando, and i just don't understand how people can overlook how good hedo, lewis, and nelson are. those three are the ones who get dwight his wide open dunks. yes, dwight has the potential to be great, but he's got a lot to learn about the game before he should even be mentioned with the likes of shaq, wilt, russell, etc.

Lol... I think you just don't like him.

ChicagoJ
06-12-2009, 11:52 AM
I read or heard somewhere (maybe from Simmons?) I can't remember that Kobe was like 14/56 or something absurd like that on game winning or tying shots in the past few years. I can't remember where I saw it, but that number is sticking out in my head.

Whoever it was made the point that they believed Kobe was a great streak scorer, but not exactly the clutch player he is made to be today.

Yep, it was Simmons.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090608&sportCat=nba

Bingo. My point is this: Kobe "can" take over a game at any time because of his talent. Kobe can take over a game early and put it out of reach. There are times that he can take over during crunch time against an opponent that has been allowed to "hand around."

But at crunch time against a worthy opponent, Kobe is often bailed out by Fisher, by Horry, by Odom, by Shaq, (and by the officials.)

Sollozzo
06-12-2009, 12:11 PM
Bingo. My point is this: Kobe "can" take over a game at any time because of his talent. Kobe can take over a game early and put it out of reach. There are times that he can take over during crunch time against an opponent that has been allowed to "hand around."

But at crunch time against a worthy opponent, Kobe is often bailed out by Fisher, by Horry, by Odom, by Shaq, (and by the officials.)


Might have something to do with Kobe being the most heavily guarded player on the court at crunch time.................

And MJ was bailed out by Pip, John Paxon, Steve Kerr (a couple of times I think), Toni Kukoc, and Dale Davis not being able to hit free throws

:)

ChicagoJ
06-12-2009, 12:14 PM
Might have something to do with Kobe being the most heavily guarded player on the court at crunch time.................


Making the 1 AST vs 56 FGA stat even more conspicuous. If that is true then somebody is open.

Sollozzo
06-12-2009, 12:17 PM
Making the 1 AST vs 56 FGA stat even more conspicuous. If that is true then somebody is open.


That's the problem. Kobe forces stuff waaaaaaay too much when he shouldn't. I'm a Kobe fan, but there's no way to deny that.

idioteque
06-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Right now Dwight Howard is just a much better version of Ben Wallace, and nothing else. He has a ways to go.

Comparing him to guys I have seen, he is not as good as any of the 90's greats who received similar attention during their day: Dream, Admiral, Ewing, or even Shaq.

Hicks
06-12-2009, 12:27 PM
still don't understand how dwight howard is not overrated...this is the 2nd game in the finals alone he's lost for orlando, and i just don't understand how people can overlook how good hedo, lewis, and nelson are. those three are the ones who get dwight his wide open dunks. yes, dwight has the potential to be great, but he's got a lot to learn about the game before he should even be mentioned with the likes of shaq, wilt, russell, etc.

Two-way game, and on the other end he's amazing. Not to mention the rebounding.

Turkoglu is all about offense, and he missed two free throws, too. That's inexcusable when offense is your thing.

Speaking of Hedo, once AGAIN he failed to close out on a jumpshooter late in the game, and sure enough the shot went right in easily.

SoupIsGood
06-12-2009, 12:49 PM
Right now Dwight Howard is just a much better version of Ben Wallace, and nothing else.

Is that so bad? Wallace was an intimidating monster, back in the day. I remember Simmons once saying that he wished Orlando would get over trying to make Dwight into a post player and just have him focus 100% of his energy on crashing the boards and playing D. I think I would agree with that. . . .

Unclebuck
06-12-2009, 01:19 PM
Two-way game, and on the other end he's amazing. Not to mention the rebounding.

Turkoglu is all about offense, and he missed two free throws, too. That's inexcusable when offense is your thing.

Speaking of Hedo, once AGAIN he failed to close out on a jumpshooter late in the game, and sure enough the shot went right in easily.

This is the first series that I have really been rooting for the magic to win, and when I do that it makes me look at players differently. Hedo is very talented, and he is really good, but extremely frustrating as a fan. he plays with low energy, makes a lot of questionable decisions - glad he isn't on the Pacers.

jack bauer
06-12-2009, 01:25 PM
I agree with Soup Is Good. I personally think Howard is very raw on the offensive end, however I also think he can improve a lot (and will).

I also agree with (I beleive it was Hicks) and Unclebuck. I really enjoy watching Hedo play, and he is fun to watch once he gets hot, but I feel like sometimes he is just going through the motions.

On another note, how many times must a coach get burned by not fouling when up 3 in the closing seconds? I understand the Magic were shooting poor from the FT line but I still would have fouled.

Another game that came down to missed free throws and turnovers....I feel like that is a common theme........

Unclebuck
06-12-2009, 01:26 PM
Right now Dwight Howard is just a much better version of Ben Wallace, and nothing else. He has a ways to go.




OK, I'll agree with you that Howard is better than Ben Wallace. But Dwight is already a much, much better offensive player - not even in the same league. One way to judge an offensive player is to look at what opponents do - do they game plan for him, do they double, do they distort their entire defense? For Howard - Yes without question, for Ben - no never, in fact he wasn't even guarded

croz24
06-12-2009, 01:49 PM
Two-way game, and on the other end he's amazing. Not to mention the rebounding.

Turkoglu is all about offense, and he missed two free throws, too. That's inexcusable when offense is your thing.

Speaking of Hedo, once AGAIN he failed to close out on a jumpshooter late in the game, and sure enough the shot went right in easily.

but isn't it howard who's being compared to the all-time greats? howard missed how many late game fts last night and had how many late game turnovers? howard isn't the man of steel, he's hands of steel...i'm tired of arguing is average man defense as that's very subjective anyway, but howard right now truly is a slightly better version of ben wallace. big ben himself wasn't that great of a man defender. help side, one of the best ever. but average man.

Major Cold
06-12-2009, 01:49 PM
Until Howard quits dropping the ball to his waist on entry passes, he will be limited in games.

I think Howard can be a decent post player on the right team. Hedo is really the only good passer on this team. If you put players that can hit the jumper and pass in closing seams, Howard is more of a factor.

I really think that the Lakers' defense has neutralized the presence of Howard and even Lewis. Lewis needs to learn how to create his own shot.

Ariza was amazing on both ends of the court. He spaces the floor on offense, he locks down on defense. Multiple times Ariza cut off Hedo's angles to the bucket and to the open man. I have never seen a player who struggled so much in the earlier part of his career and come on so strong in one season.

Major Cold
06-12-2009, 01:52 PM
croz,

Howards man defense is better than you are giving credit. He block two turn arounds on Gasol. He kept Gasol in front of him when Gasol faced up and drove. All of that and he also sealed the best rebounder out there and grabbed what 18 rebounds.

The dude is great on defense.

croz24
06-12-2009, 01:54 PM
OK, I'll agree with you that Howard is better than Ben Wallace. But Dwight is already a much, much better offensive player - not even in the same league. One way to judge an offensive player is to look at what opponents do - do they game plan for him, do they double, do they distort their entire defense? For Howard - Yes without question, for Ben - no never, in fact he wasn't even guarded

i'd argue that the doubles on come for howard because his hands are so horrible that when he gets flutered, he's a guaranteed turnover.

croz24
06-12-2009, 02:02 PM
croz,

Howards man defense is better than you are giving credit. He block two turn arounds on Gasol. He kept Gasol in front of him when Gasol faced up and drove. All of that and he also sealed the best rebounder out there and grabbed what 18 rebounds.

The dude is great on defense.

then why is gasol shooting a higher % and averaging more points than howard in this nba finals? gasol hasn't shot less than 50% from the floor yet against howard. and if you argue many of those totals came when howard was on bynum, then explain why the "DPOY" wasn't guarding the opposing team's best big...

btw, i have never and will never classify good rebounding as good defense

Since86
06-12-2009, 02:08 PM
then why is gasol shooting a higher % and averaging more points than howard in this nba finals? gasol hasn't shot less than 50% from the floor yet against howard. and if you argue many of those totals came when howard was on bynum, then explain why the "DPOY" wasn't guarding the opposing team's best big...

Because Lewis actually matches up better with Gasol than he does with Bynum.

jack bauer
06-12-2009, 02:41 PM
You need a good rebound to close out a good defensive possession.

I agree Howards needs to make better decisions out of double teams.

croz24
06-12-2009, 03:19 PM
You need a good rebound to close out a good defensive possession.

I agree Howards needs to make better decisions out of double teams.

so does that make troy murphy the 2nd best defender in the game? he did lead the league in defensive rebounds per game...

idioteque
06-12-2009, 03:34 PM
OK, I'll agree with you that Howard is better than Ben Wallace. But Dwight is already a much, much better offensive player - not even in the same league. One way to judge an offensive player is to look at what opponents do - do they game plan for him, do they double, do they distort their entire defense? For Howard - Yes without question, for Ben - no never, in fact he wasn't even guarded

I kind of agree with you- remember I said that Dwight is a better version of Ben Wallace, not Ben Wallace himself.

I don't go out of my way to ever watch the Magic in the regular season but in the playoffs Dwight has been confined to a couple of post moves and that is it. And these moves look pretty basic, a guy without his strength and size could easily do the same thing but would probably get posterized every play. Right now Howard's offense is viable at all only because he is so strong and big.

Then you look at guys like Dream and Admiral who were equally as strong, but were also incredibly graceful. I mean, all things considered, these guys could have done frigging ballet if they wanted to. I've read Dream was such a good basketball player because he had great coordination from playing soccer back in his country. Howard just doesn't have the grace or awareness of the great players- yet. He could very well get there, and I'm not lashing out on people on this board, moreso the PR people that work for the NBA and are billing him as today's elite center. That is just not the case. And I know people are saying that the old post-up every play center is becoming outdated and these new Howard-type centers are the new thing, but I simply don't see that as correct. Shaq is still pretty successful in today's NBA and he is way past his prime, while everyone was hoping Oden could be a David Robinson type player.


Is that so bad? Wallace was an intimidating monster, back in the day. I remember Simmons once saying that he wished Orlando would get over trying to make Dwight into a post player and just have him focus 100% of his energy on crashing the boards and playing D. I think I would agree with that. . . .

Nah, it isn't bad, but if that is the case he isn't as advertised either. If Dwight has the ability to be a post-up guy...you have to encourage that. So few players can do that now and it is such a great weapon to have.

croz24
06-12-2009, 03:41 PM
my issue with howard comes from the hype he receives and my perception of his abilities compared to that hype. howard isn't even close to being at david robinson's level yet many in the media are hyping him already as the better center. just let me know the next time howard does this...

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Jonathan
06-12-2009, 03:42 PM
A veteran like D Fisher is the reason why I get upset when some people on PD want to trade Foster. Fisher knows what he can and can't do much like Foster. He did not hesitate for a second on either shot. I am suprised a team like Portland or Denver did not offer a draft pick to the Lakers for D Fisher just so he would not make clutch shots to beat them.

Unclebuck
06-12-2009, 03:44 PM
I hope everyone realizes all these exact same arguments were being made against Howard were being made against Shaq 12-15 years ago.

Since86
06-12-2009, 03:46 PM
If Dwight ever figures out that he doesn't always have to go through people, he's offense will grow by leaps and bounds.

Right now his main/only move is to bang with the left shoulder and try moving the defender off their spot to either dunk, lay it in, or shoot a variation of a hook.

His defender camps on that shoulder, and while he's banging into him, help comes in and goes after the ball, and the helpside isn't even coming from the back most of the time.

If he would reverse pivot, and thus going away from the help defense, he would have a layup. I just don't understand why players force moves, instead of just taking what the defense gives them. They can't take everything away.

Major Cold
06-12-2009, 03:48 PM
Have you seen what Howard has to do on defense, or are you just looking at the stats. Gasol is getting the majority of his points off of rotation from double teams, broken plays, and transition. Whenever Odom or Kobe gets within 18 feet of the bucket, Howard is the quickest man to the cut off. It is up to the opposite weakside defender to sink in and cut off Gasol. Most of the time they do that, but they leave Ariza/Fisher open for three.

That is not knocking Gasol. But whenever these two face off on the block, it is Howard that is winning. And in fact the offense is not even ran through Gasol.

I would have to say though, that Gasol is slightly less of an all-around player than Howard. And it is closer than a lot of people are willing to give credit for.

But you cannot blame 100% of Gasol's success on Howard. To do that is indicating that you not even watching the same game.

idioteque
06-12-2009, 03:53 PM
I hope everyone realizes all these exact same arguments were being made against Howard were being made against Shaq 12-15 years ago.

Heck, that's fine. Howard could be that good someday, or better. He just isn't there right now, and I think the main issue people have is that he's already being heralded as great whereas right now he is simply just very good.

Major Cold
06-12-2009, 03:58 PM
my issue with howard comes from the hype he receives and my perception of his abilities compared to that hype. howard isn't even close to being at david robinson's level yet many in the media are hyping him already as the better center. just let me know the next time howard does this...

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I agree. Howard is no where near Robinson. So whoever said that, is forgetting how great he was. Howard is amazing, but I still would say that more players are more important to their teams than him:

Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Paul

The reason why I like the Magic is because their "superstar" doesn't have to dominate the ball in order for them to win. And for some reason the Magic have gone more inside to Howard in this series (it appeears that way at least) than usual. Did the media convince them to do this? I mean I would say that Cleveland crashed less on Howard than LA has. And yet how many more times have they tried to force it into him in the Finals, than in the ECFs?

croz24
06-12-2009, 04:11 PM
I hope everyone realizes all these exact same arguments were being made against Howard were being made against Shaq 12-15 years ago.

shaq actually had an offensive game at dwight's age. do we forget that shaq averaged 29ppg at age 21 and led the league in scoring at age 22? dwight has a long ways to go offensively before he can even be compared to shaq imo.

Unclebuck
06-12-2009, 04:22 PM
shaq actually had an offensive game at dwight's age. do we forget that shaq averaged 29ppg at age 21 and led the league in scoring at age 22? dwight has a long ways to go offensively before he can even be compared to shaq imo.

Shaq's offensive game was that he was huge and was a very good athlete. Shaq was not a better shooter, nor did he have a more refined offensive game than Howard. Shaq is like Howard, but just bigger and stronger

Sollozzo
06-12-2009, 04:34 PM
Shaq's offensive game was that he was huge and was a very good athlete. Shaq was not a better shooter, nor did he have a more refined offensive game than Howard. Shaq is like Howard, but just bigger and stronger


I disagree with that 100%. Shaq had beautiful post moves that Howard could only dream of having. Sure his power helped, but he had great footwork too. If Howard was Shaq's size, his offensive skill set still wouldn't be anything close to Shaq's. Why do you think Shaq is still good? He's well past his physical prime but he still has great moves, and that's why he is still effective.

ChicagoJ
06-12-2009, 04:48 PM
Shaq had impeccable footwork. That is crazy comment, UB. When I make crazy comments like that one, you call me out. You usually refrain from insanity, but not this time.

Shaq couldn't hit FTs, but he was an offensive machine from the moment he entered the league.

Major Cold
06-12-2009, 04:53 PM
Shaq knows where to position not only his feet, but also the ball when he receives it. Howard drops it below his waist way too often.

Sollozzo
06-12-2009, 05:01 PM
Shaq had impeccable footwork. That is crazy comment, UB. When I make crazy comments like that one, you call me out. You usually refrain from insanity, but not this time.

Shaq couldn't hit FTs, but he was an offensive machine from the moment he entered the league.

Agreed.

UB, watch this video of Shaq in his second year (before he got huge) and then tell me again that Shaq didn't have a "more refined offensive game than Howard." I bet you can't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM-eBOLMrOU

Saying that Shaq is only good because he is big and strong makes me cringe more than about anything else. Shaq is one of the most skilled players to ever play in the league.

EDIT: Watching that video gives you a good look at Shaq's hook shot. That is beautiful and is something Dwight will never be able to do as well.

Kid Minneapolis
06-12-2009, 05:04 PM
Heck, that's fine. Howard could be that good someday, or better. He just isn't there right now, and I think the main issue people have is that he's already being heralded as great whereas right now he is simply just very good.

I haven't really seen anyone saying he's "great" yet... just that he's a beast, and he's young and one day *could* be great.

For the Shaq comparisons... Shaq came into the league known as an offensive force with some defense... Howard is kind of the opposite. They're still both great talents. Shaq *was* bigger. I still think Howard can develop some offense, he already has. He's young, has some good big man coaches around him and has expressed a desire to expand his offensive game.

ChicagoJ
06-12-2009, 05:10 PM
Shaq knows where to position not only his feet, but also the ball when he receives it. Howard drops it below his waist way too often.

Yes. Just like Smits always did - bring the ball down to where the little guys can get it. Jordan used to have 2 or 3 steals per game against Smits because he knew Rik would bring the ball down and he'd get in position to take it.

Doddage
06-12-2009, 05:10 PM
I think last night's game came down to experience - the lakers have it the the Magic don't. Keep in mind until this year this Magic team had never won a playoff series.
They beat the Raptors in the first round last year, before losing to the Pistons.

rexnom
06-12-2009, 05:28 PM
Shaq knows where to position not only his feet, but also the ball when he receives it. Howard drops it below his waist way too often.
Thank you for this post. I don't know if I'm alone on this but I feel that Shaq is almost underrated sometimes skill-wise. He wasn't just a big dude - he was very, very skilled.

EDIT - I'm definitely not alone...good job with the video evidence, Adam.

idioteque
06-12-2009, 05:54 PM
I was in Europe during the 2000 NBA Finals so correct me if I'm wrong...

Didn't the Pacers have a really good opportunity in Game 4 to lock the series up at 2 but then end up blowing it in overtime? All I remember from this series is reading about it in USA Today.

croz24
06-12-2009, 05:57 PM
I was in Europe during the 2000 NBA Finals so correct me if I'm wrong...

Didn't the Pacers have a really good opportunity in Game 4 to lock the series up and 2 but then end up blowing it in overtime? All I remember from this series is reading about it in USA Today.

please don't bring that up...

ChicagoJ
06-12-2009, 06:04 PM
I was in Europe during the 2000 NBA Finals so correct me if I'm wrong...

Didn't the Pacers have a really good opportunity in Game 4 to lock the series up and 2 but then end up blowing it in overtime? All I remember from this series is reading about it in USA Today.

:banhim:

Shade
06-12-2009, 06:05 PM
...and this is why I was rooting for the Cavs in the ECF.

Stupid Magic. :mad:

Mr_Smith
06-12-2009, 10:38 PM
I was in Europe during the 2000 NBA Finals so correct me if I'm wrong...

Didn't the Pacers have a really good opportunity in Game 4 to lock the series up at 2 but then end up blowing it in overtime? All I remember from this series is reading about it in USA Today.

I still remember that Travis Best air ball that he shot over Shaq in the 4th quarter. Kobe was just a flat out beast after Shaq had fouled out.

Big Smooth
06-13-2009, 03:46 AM
Agreed.

UB, watch this video of Shaq in his second year (before he got huge) and then tell me again that Shaq didn't have a "more refined offensive game than Howard." I bet you can't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM-eBOLMrOU

Saying that Shaq is only good because he is big and strong makes me cringe more than about anything else. Shaq is one of the most skilled players to ever play in the league.

EDIT: Watching that video gives you a good look at Shaq's hook shot. That is beautiful and is something Dwight will never be able to do as well.

Agreed on Shaq. The dude had a ton of skill. A lot of people did not want to acknowledge it because well okay he did have some size and he was "tough to officiate" but I know I never doubted his skill level.....at least not in his prime.

Big Smooth
06-13-2009, 03:49 AM
4 games complete and 3 of the games have been very tight. And you could make the argument that Orlando should be up 3-1. But fate is a cruel temptress. If I was a Magic fan I would be very frustrated right now. But given that I still hold a grudge against that franchise for eliminating the Pacers in the 1995 ECF, so be it. :D

Unclebuck
06-13-2009, 08:33 AM
OK, I watched the youtube video. I hope I'm not supposed to be impressed by his free throw shooting LOL. OK, maybe Shaq's footwork is better than Howards - I'll give you that. But other than that, I don't see much more skill than Howard.

Don't get me wrong, I tend to overrate Shaq. All I know is the Shaq the Pacers played in the 2000 Finals was the best player by far the NBA Pacers had ever played in the playoffs.

pizza guy
06-13-2009, 08:41 AM
Yeah, that's the nature of sports. It's what makes the playoffs so awesome and frustrating at the same time. Orlando should be up 3-1, not just could. If Courtney Lee hits the lay-up at the buzzer and if Dwight Howard makes a free throw in the last minute, this series goes back to L.A. with the Lakers trying to avoid a second straight Finals defeat.

I think the difference is experience. Orlando has played well, and they've certainly be a mature, composed, resiliant team throughout this post-season, but they've never been to the Finals, and when it's for all the marbles, it's a different game. Kobe and the Lakers were just on this stage last year. Guys like Kobe and Fisher and Coach Jackson know about the extra level it takes to win. Howard, Lewis, Stan Van, and the rest of the Magic just don't have that experience and that overdrive gear.

Now, if Orlando makes it this far next year, they'll probably handle whoever they face like they're being handled now. These games have been close, but even when they're down, you know L.A. is still in control of the game. It's like Orlando, even when they're playing well, is worried about losing to the Lakers, not about beating the Lakers. Kobe knows they've got to beat Orlando, and so they have.

--pizza

Unclebuck
06-13-2009, 08:50 AM
Ratings continue better that last years finals.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/06/12/game-four-of-nba-of-lakersmagic-finals-averaged-16-million-viewers-and-a-64-adults-18-49-ratings/20564

Robert Seidman
Last nights game averaged 16 million viewers and a 6.4 adults 18-49 rating. Though the featured teams may not be as compelling as last years Lakers/Celtics series, at least through four games this year’s series is up 4% in overall viewing and 5% in adults 18-49 viewing. The series is making inroads with younger viewers too, the 18-34 viewing is up 5% through four games, and up 8% with men 18-34. The series is up 29% with the 12-17 crowd versus last year!via

rexnom
06-13-2009, 09:28 AM
Ratings continue better that last years finals.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/06/12/game-four-of-nba-of-lakersmagic-finals-averaged-16-million-viewers-and-a-64-adults-18-49-ratings/20564

Robert Seidman
Last nights game averaged 16 million viewers and a 6.4 adults 18-49 rating. Though the featured teams may not be as compelling as last years Lakers/Celtics series, at least through four games this year’s series is up 4% in overall viewing and 5% in adults 18-49 viewing. The series is making inroads with younger viewers too, the 18-34 viewing is up 5% through four games, and up 8% with men 18-34. The series is up 29% with the 12-17 crowd versus last year!via
Not surprising - the games are much better than last year. I remember getting together with groups of people to watch the finals last year and many people had left before the 4th quarter or even second half.

Frostwolf
06-13-2009, 09:55 AM
I've never seen Dwight make a spin to fadeaway jumper like Shaq does in that video.

rexnom
06-13-2009, 10:03 AM
OK, I watched the youtube video. I hope I'm not supposed to be impressed by his free throw shooting LOL. OK, maybe Shaq's footwork is better than Howards - I'll give you that. But other than that, I don't see much more skill than Howard.

You're insane. The footwork, the patience, the obvious bball IQ, the post moves (Howard only has one really - where he tries to overpower his man), etc. But then again, Shaq is one of the all-time greats.

This series has been such a contrast between big man styles. I think Gasol is the most talented big man in the NBA offensively. He is a joy to watch. Alternatively, Howard just gets the ball, tries to body slam whoever is guarding him until he gets the rim. It's not really pretty basketball.

Kid Minneapolis
06-13-2009, 10:30 AM
...and this is why I was rooting for the Cavs in the ECF.

Stupid Magic. :mad:

You really think cleveland would have put up a better fight than Orlando? You enjoy watching 1-on-5 basketball?

GO!!!!!
06-14-2009, 12:46 AM
I'm intrigued by the Howard Hate, sure he missed a few FT's last game but before the last game he was on a tear and making awesome percentages..

The Turk missed 3 out of his last 4...

That game was more lost with Nelson letting Fish have that open 3, Ahh if anything you should feel sorry for Utah who let Fish out of his contract to go to LA...

Nice Game, nice finals... can't complain would have been nice for the Magic but it's just not there time..

Major Cold
06-14-2009, 01:05 AM
I think Howard has a few more moves than just overpowering his opponent. He has a good up and under that he can't display cause he is being caraoled to the middle where 2, 3, 4 players crash on him. And like I said he is slow after he catches the entry, cause he brings the ball way too low.

Dribble drive swoop hook might be his best move if he can cross the entire lane.

rexnom
06-14-2009, 08:15 PM
God Bynum is awful. Get Odom in there asap, please.

PacerDude
06-14-2009, 08:31 PM
God Bynum is awful. Get Odom in there asap, please.No.

Leave BoyBlunder in there. That way, Orlando has a better chance to win. :cool:

count55
06-14-2009, 09:40 PM
8:00 mark of the third...Peck's heart would've been all a-flutter, if he was watching.

vnzla81
06-14-2009, 09:56 PM
this game looks like is going to be over today. Kobe is in killing mode.....:mad:

Hicks
06-14-2009, 10:27 PM
This is not a knock on the Lakers, but just a general comment of disappointment in terms of competition: The Kobe-era Lakers have won four titles (well, soon enough). They toughest opponent they beat in the Finals was the 2000 Indiana Pacers. Not a small thing, but will they ever slay a giant when they get there, or just keep beating teams they should beat? Will they ever win as the underdog or in an even match up?

vnzla81
06-14-2009, 10:34 PM
This is not a knock on the Lakers, but just a general comment of disappointment in terms of competition: The Kobe-era Lakers have won four titles (well, soon enough). They toughest opponent they beat in the Finals was the 2000 Indiana Pacers. Not a small thing, but will they ever slay a giant when they get there, or just keep beating teams they should beat? Will they ever win as the underdog or in an even match up?

Is going to be harder for them to win next year, with a healthy KG and maybe Lebron and Shaq in the same team(I would love to watch a final like this) for Orlando I don't think they would be in the finals for at least two more years, once Howards becomes more dominant.

vnzla81
06-14-2009, 10:42 PM
is anybody noticing how hot Kobe's wife is? damn.............:drool:

count55
06-14-2009, 10:45 PM
This is not a knock on the Lakers, but just a general comment of disappointment in terms of competition: The Kobe-era Lakers have won four titles (well, soon enough). They toughest opponent they beat in the Finals was the 2000 Indiana Pacers. Not a small thing, but will they ever slay a giant when they get there, or just keep beating teams they should beat? Will they ever win as the underdog or in an even match up?

Yeah, but how many other teams can you make that same comment about? It's not like the Spurs beat anybody particularly inspiring in their four titles. The Bulls were never really underdogs.

Really, once Garnett went down, this title was pretty much the Lakers' to lose. I had told a co-worker that they'd win the title series in 5, but I thought it would be Cleveland, not Orlando. They're champions, and you can only beat the teams you play.

I think, however, this will continue to be an issue. Because of expansion and other factors, it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, to ever have those titanic matchups like the Lakers-Celtics of the '80's.

CableKC
06-14-2009, 10:46 PM
is anybody noticing how hot Kobe's wife is? damn.............:drool:
Yet, Kobe decided to have an affair that cost him probably millions......

CableKC
06-14-2009, 10:47 PM
Well, I can now officially throw-up......Laker Fans should send Chris Wallace flowers and a Championship Ring as well.

rexnom
06-14-2009, 10:47 PM
This is not a knock on the Lakers, but just a general comment of disappointment in terms of competition: The Kobe-era Lakers have won four titles (well, soon enough). They toughest opponent they beat in the Finals was the 2000 Indiana Pacers. Not a small thing, but will they ever slay a giant when they get there, or just keep beating teams they should beat? Will they ever win as the underdog or in an even match up?
The finals aren't always between two evenly matched squads. '06,'05, and '08 were pretty close though.

idioteque
06-14-2009, 10:56 PM
Well, sort of a crappy end to what was a pretty good year when it comes to the playoffs.

I'm wishing now that KG didn't get hurt. The Magic aren't slouches but they didn't really belong in the Finals this year.

vnzla81
06-14-2009, 10:56 PM
:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:........ ..........damn............

Sollozzo
06-14-2009, 11:05 PM
This is not a knock on the Lakers, but just a general comment of disappointment in terms of competition: The Kobe-era Lakers have won four titles (well, soon enough). They toughest opponent they beat in the Finals was the 2000 Indiana Pacers. Not a small thing, but will they ever slay a giant when they get there, or just keep beating teams they should beat? Will they ever win as the underdog or in an even match up?


Sure the actual finals teams they've beaten haven't been that great. But you can't ignore that they have played difficult teams in the west before reaching the finals.

2000: Blazers took them to 7 and had them beat.
2001: Best NBA playoff team ever. Hard to slay any giants when you are superior to everyone
2002: Kings took them to 7 and could have easily beat them.
2009: Probably shouldn't have gone to 7 against the Rockets, but Denver was a really good team. And this Orlando team gave LA a much tougher series than the end result said.

Like count said, Jordan never faced extremely tough tests in the finals. None of the series he played in ever went to 7 games

DGPR
06-14-2009, 11:11 PM
Kobe with another ring...............yawn.

Sollozzo
06-14-2009, 11:13 PM
Congrats to the Lakers and Kobe, the best player in the NBA. I think he's going to rip off a couple of more before he's finished.

Hicks
06-14-2009, 11:50 PM
It's not like the Spurs beat anybody particularly inspiring in their four titles.

They beat the Detroit Pistons in 2005 the very next year following DET's title. That was a great victory for them against a very worthy opponent.

Hicks
06-14-2009, 11:53 PM
Adam, of course the Lakers had some years with some great WCF. No doubt about it. That's why I specifically was referring to the Finals, though. Kind of a let down when the preceding round is more exciting than the actual NBA Finals.

Sollozzo
06-15-2009, 12:07 AM
Adam, of course the Lakers had some years with some great WCF. No doubt about it. That's why I specifically was referring to the Finals, though. Kind of a let down when the preceding round is more exciting than the actual NBA Finals.


I kinda see what you're saying, but there's really no difference challenge-wise between playing a tough conference final/weak NBA final or easy conference final/tough NBA final.

I agree that it was a let down (atleast as far as fans who want to see a good series are concerned).

These days, it's hard to get both.

cdash
06-15-2009, 12:14 AM
Anyone else feel like the Finals would have been much more entertaining with Cleveland instead of Orlando? I still can't believe they lost that series.

Dece
06-15-2009, 12:53 AM
Cleveland would have been swept.

cdash
06-15-2009, 12:59 AM
Cleveland would have been swept.

Nah, I actually think they would have put up a better fight than Orlando did. The Magic were just a horrible matchup for the Cavs. Cleveland is built to beat teams more like Boston and LA than Orlando. Plus the Cavs were a tough out at home.

Unclebuck
06-15-2009, 08:30 AM
This is not a knock on the Lakers, but just a general comment of disappointment in terms of competition: The Kobe-era Lakers have won four titles (well, soon enough). They toughest opponent they beat in the Finals was the 2000 Indiana Pacers. Not a small thing, but will they ever slay a giant when they get there, or just keep beating teams they should beat? Will they ever win as the underdog or in an even match up?

Last year most considered them the favorite going into the series against the Celtics. I realize that doesn't answer your question (I think they were favored against the Pistons in 2004) Hicks, I don't know the last time they weren't favored to win the Finals, once they got there.

'00 - Pacers
'01 - Sixers
'02 - Nets
'04 - Pistons
'08 - Celtics
'09 - Magic

Lakers were favored in each series (although I'm not positive they were last year)


Assuming the Rockets re-sign Artest - the Rockets match up very well with the lakers. Two guys who can defend Kobe (Battier defends him better than anyone in the NBA right now) A very quick points guard and several other young athletic aggressive players. The Nuggets also are a tough matchup for the Lakers - with their athletic front line.

The Lakers are going to be good as long as Kobe and Gasol are there, but it isn't going to be like 2000-2002 when the lakers were prohibited favorites

Basketball Fan
06-15-2009, 10:13 AM
Yet, Kobe decided to have an affair that cost him probably millions......



Looks never kept a person faithful if it were the case Halle Berry would never have been cheated on and she was by both her ex husbands.

Brad8888
06-15-2009, 10:20 AM
The better overall team is Orlando. The team with experienced playoff leadership is the Lakers. Coaching experience with championship teams matters, but so does having multiple three point threats coupled with an undeniable force inside.

Phil contemplates taking a long motorcycle ride into the sunset, and Jack Nicholson goes home and contemplates a new reality after personally watching Orlando take out his beloved Lakeshow in 6.

Wrong, on so many levels, this was so wrong. And now, I'm "talking" to myself. :blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush:

Unclebuck
06-15-2009, 10:22 AM
Anyone else feel like the Finals would have been much more entertaining with Cleveland instead of Orlando? I still can't believe they lost that series.

I think the best series would have been a healthy Celtics vs the Lakers.

However, I don't consider the finals a dud - much better than the Cavs vs Spurs from two years ago. 3 of the 5 games were excellent games.

Could the Cavs have played these Lakers better than the magic did. Maybe - you have the Lebron factor that is difficult to quantify

Shade
06-15-2009, 12:19 PM
That was one of the worst NBA Finals ever, and almost exactly what I envisioned when the Magic beat the Cavs.

Meh.

Shade
06-15-2009, 12:21 PM
Last year most considered them the favorite going into the series against the Celtics. I realize that doesn't answer your question (I think they were favored against the Pistons in 2004) Hicks, I don't know the last time they weren't favored to win the Finals, once they got there.

'00 - Pacers
'01 - Sixers
'02 - Nets
'04 - Pistons
'08 - Celtics
'09 - Magic

Lakers were favored in each series (although I'm not positive they were last year)


Assuming the Rockets re-sign Artest - the Rockets match up very well with the lakers. Two guys who can defend Kobe (Battier defends him better than anyone in the NBA right now) A very quick points guard and several other young athletic aggressive players. The Nuggets also are a tough matchup for the Lakers - with their athletic front line.

The Lakers are going to be good as long as Kobe and Gasol are there, but it isn't going to be like 2000-2002 when the lakers were prohibited favorites

Yes, the Lakers were indeed the favorites in each of those series'.

This Lakers team is one of the worst NBA champions in recent memory, IMO. They have so many obvious flaws. The Celtics at 100% would have beaten them again without question, and I still think the Cavs would have taken them out, as well.