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Hicks
06-30-2004, 12:07 PM
I think this is the way it could go:

Indiana trades: PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.6 minutes)
C Scot Pollard (1.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.2 apg in 11.1 minutes)
PF Al Harrington (13.3 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.7 apg in 30.9 minutes)
Indiana receives: SG Ray Allen (23.0 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.4 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +3.1 ppg, -5.6 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

Seattle trades: SG Ray Allen (23.0 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.4 minutes)
Seattle receives: PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 81 games)
C Scot Pollard (1.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.2 apg in 61 games)
PF Al Harrington (13.3 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.7 apg in 79 games)
Change in team outlook: -3.1 ppg, +5.6 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

able
06-30-2004, 12:09 PM
close, to close for comfort :) but I doubt they will take the Polly contract, my bet would be Cro instead of Polly

:D

Hicks
06-30-2004, 12:10 PM
It will take one of the other, but I think they'd take Pollard because they're desperate for size, and Pollard is simply bigger than Cro, and they'll have Al for the space Cro would play in.

Lord Helmet
06-30-2004, 12:17 PM
Maybe instead of Fred give them J.Jones.

sixthman
06-30-2004, 12:24 PM
I'd bet Seattle is not going to let Ray J A go for Al, Freddie and Pollard. Subbing Cro for Pollard would draw even more hysterical laughter.

Ron would need to be included, if only one of our valued forwards is involved.

Hicks
06-30-2004, 12:28 PM
Ray doesn't carry that much value IMO.

DisplacedKnick
06-30-2004, 12:39 PM
Ray doesn't carry that much value IMO.


Of course not. He's only been an all-star each of the last 4 years, scored over 20 ppg each of the last 5 and averages around 5 rebounds and 5 assists per.

And he's only 28.

Hicks
06-30-2004, 12:42 PM
We'll see what he gets traded for.

Keep in mind he was so valuable that Milwaukee gave him up for D. Mason and a half-season rental of Gary Payton.

MSA2CF
06-30-2004, 12:44 PM
I don't see why Seattle does this at all.

They don't improve in a way, except possibly by gaining Al as their PF.

Hicks
06-30-2004, 12:45 PM
Grr. The one time Kstat would agree with me, and he's not here for the week. Bah. (Yes, he did tell me that, he'll be back next week)

Young
06-30-2004, 12:47 PM
I don't know that Seattle would want Pollard. They already have Jerome James, VP, Calvin Booth, and now the recently drafted Robert Swift all play center.

And Collison and Vladimer Radomovic play PF.

And Lewis plays SF.

I really don't see how any of the players they get in this deal fits in.

A 3 way is more likely.

Although no one wants Croshere and his contract so its likely to be Harrington/Pollard.

ChicagoJ
06-30-2004, 12:48 PM
An all-star for two backup 'tweeners and an overpaid washout?

Please let Seattle's management be that dumb. :pray:

And somebody wanted to replace one of our subs with a guy who could barely get off the IL? :laugh:

Young
06-30-2004, 12:49 PM
Also, I don't think Indiana should trade Fred Jones.

In the event of Harrington being traded, which very likely, the 6th man spot will be open.

And no one should trust Jon Bender to be healthy enough to assume that role.

And Jones is very versatile so he can actually play 1-2-3 depending on matchups.

Maybe just add a 1rst Round Pick.

Young
06-30-2004, 12:51 PM
An all-star for two backup 'tweeners and an overpaid washout?

Please let Seattle's management be that dumb. :pray:

And somebody wanted to replace one of our subs with a guy who could barely get off the IL? :laugh:


I think your forgeting that Harrington has one of the highest values for a single player on the market.

Good contract.
Young.
Has proven some.
Has potentiol to prove more.

ChicagoJ
06-30-2004, 12:56 PM
An all-star for two backup 'tweeners and an overpaid washout?

Please let Seattle's management be that dumb. :pray:

And somebody wanted to replace one of our subs with a guy who could barely get off the IL? :laugh:


I think your forgeting that Harrington has one of the highest values for a single player on the market.

Good contract.
Young.
Has proven some.
Has potentiol to prove more.

All true. But I think many of you are forgetting that Ray Allen is a multi-time all-star.

If Ray Allen, annual all-star, played for the Pacers, how much would you demand in return for a trade? You can't say Al + filler with a straight face, can you? At the very least, Seattle will demand an all-star-caliber player in return.

Arcadian
06-30-2004, 01:00 PM
We'll see what he gets traded for.

Keep in mind he was so valuable that Milwaukee gave him up for D. Mason and a half-season rental of Gary Payton.

And look what the Bucks got for Sam Cassell. I wouldn't rate how good a player is based on how badly the bucks trade. Also Payton was considered a top 5 point guard at the time and Karl thought he could get Gary to stay.

Allen is a starter and an All-Star. Seattle will want more than bench players and a bad contract in return. I don't think you realize how good Allen is.

Unclebuck
06-30-2004, 01:00 PM
Seattle needs low post scoring. They don't need another center who has no game. So they won't want Pollard. But they have been interested in AL for years, they need someone like that .

Hicks
06-30-2004, 01:04 PM
No one has brought up Allen's defense (or lack thereof) yet.

Young
06-30-2004, 01:11 PM
An all-star for two backup 'tweeners and an overpaid washout?

Please let Seattle's management be that dumb. :pray:

And somebody wanted to replace one of our subs with a guy who could barely get off the IL? :laugh:


I think your forgeting that Harrington has one of the highest values for a single player on the market.

Good contract.
Young.
Has proven some.
Has potentiol to prove more.

All true. But I think many of you are forgetting that Ray Allen is a multi-time all-star.

If Ray Allen, annual all-star, played for the Pacers, how much would you demand in return for a trade? You can't say Al + filler with a straight face, can you? At the very least, Seattle will demand an all-star-caliber player in return.

Thats very true, I wouldn't want it for Allen.

But I think we might be able to land Allen with something similar. We could try and work a 3 way. [Indiana could add Bender too.]

The [rpblem with a deal with Seattle is they have needs but its hard to address those needs. They need a big but they drafted Swift and Collison in the past two years and they could use a point guard but they drafed Luke Ridinour.

Maybe we could land Allen, a deal of Harrington/Bender/Pick for Allen/Booth [or other bad contract] could work.

They dont get an all star but they do get rid of a bad contract and Harrington could be traded for more of what they want and they could let Bender play.

Unclebuck
06-30-2004, 01:12 PM
Hicks, I have not brought it up in this thread, but have many times before. His terrible defense goes without saying. And yes terrible is the right word.

His defense right now is worse than Reggie's defense right now.

He has zero presense defensively

bulletproof
06-30-2004, 01:17 PM
You guys need to put down the crack pipes. It would take no less than Ron to nab Allen. He's one of the top 5 SGs in the league. And I'd do that in a second, especially if Ron is on his way out anyway.

efx
06-30-2004, 01:18 PM
Well, I wouldn't be too worried about his defense. I always thought our sucess on D this season was based on a team based D rather than individual D, hence the reason Reggie wasn't a bigger liability on that end than he should have been.

Hicks
06-30-2004, 01:25 PM
You guys need to put down the crack pipes. It would take no less than Ron to nab Allen. He's one of the top 5 SGs in the league. And I'd do that in a second, especially if Ron is on his way out anyway.

I think Pierce > Allen.

And if Pierce could be had for Al/Bender... Allen probably could to.

Would that make any of you fell different?

I think after today you could swap Pollard with Bender and the contracts still match up.

How about that?

Indiana gets: Ray Allen
Seattle gets: Bender, Harrington, Jones

able
06-30-2004, 01:36 PM
I said in an earlier thread that Ron would have the value to get someone like Allen, I still stand by that trade.

I already said that Al/Polly won't cut it, but Ron/Cro/Fred or Ron/JB might be an option, though I would prefer to deal Al instead of JB.

In fact Ron & Al might well be a working trade, question remains though if Ray would fit on the Pacers, after all he is THE man and would be 2nd fiddle here at best.

On the other hand, I might prefer Pierce, If we have to trade the heavies such as Ron and Al.

Keeping Al is not an option I think, not anymore, Ron, that is in the open somewhat, but hey as I keep saying, I'd like J-Rich :)

zxc
06-30-2004, 01:45 PM
I'd be all for getting Ray Allen, though don't really think we have what it takes to trade for him. Last thing Seattle really needs is small forwards and overpaid mediocre backup centers as they got enough of both. Though Ray is gonna be on the last year of his deal and has been looking for an extension, if they don't want to give him one maybe the trade options open up. Course that could also mean we trade for him then he walks at the end of the year..

Ray definitely would be more then "2nd fiddle here at best" though. JO isn't exactly a dominating #1 option, sure he would still be getting his but if we do get a Ray Allen/Paul Pierce or something and give up Ron think they are going to be our top ppg guy easy so doubt they will be complaining.

SkipperZ
06-30-2004, 01:47 PM
The problem lies within how much you think management values Jermaine's input.

Because Jermaine would have probably accepted his 2 best friends getting shipped out for buddy and 2nd best sg in the league tmac, but he mite feel differently about trading them for ray ray.

bulletproof
06-30-2004, 01:56 PM
Jermaine has no say whatsoever in how the team is managed and who they will or won't trade for. It's business, and after having had a year to sit on Isiah's firing, even Jermaine understands that.

SkipperZ
06-30-2004, 02:00 PM
Jermaine has no say whatsoever in how the team is managed and who they will or won't trade for. It's business, and after having had a year to sit on Isiah's firing, even Jermaine understands that.


You may be right and I hope you are, but you know as well as I do, that in some organizations the franchise player (ahem Kobe) has as much say as the GM, and behind the scenes you never know what Jermaine is whipsering to good ole Larry. Or Donnie, Carlisle or the Simons. As the franchise player I'm SURE he gets SOME input, I just hope that its not very much...

Arcadian
06-30-2004, 02:13 PM
Allen will be a betterdefender here. Look at the teams he has played on. Niether the Sonics or Bucks cared about defense.

Allen will be happy in our offense. Again look at the teammates he has had to share the ball with. I even think he could co-exist with Ron something I don't think could happen with Pierce.

I don't think we will get Allen though. I think it will be someone we can trade straight up for Al.

tate
06-30-2004, 02:31 PM
I remember some years back hearing Reggie say he had very little imput on who came, saying they would basically just ask him what he thought of someone,and that he had zero imput of who left. I would think it would be about the same for JO now.

ChicagoJ
06-30-2004, 02:34 PM
Allen, Pierce (or even McGrady) would score more points than JO, but they would still be the second option.

In other words, the Pacers would still work inside-out. JO would just have more 'outside' options to work with.

Bball
06-30-2004, 02:51 PM
I remember some years back hearing Reggie say he had very little imput on who came, saying they would basically just ask him what he thought of someone,and that he had zero imput of who left. I would think it would be about the same for JO now.

That's a good point. If anyone had any say over player movements you'd think it would be Reggie. And if Reggie had any sway then Jax would've been the starting PG for the 00-01 season.... and would've had an extension from the prior year,

-Bball

McKeyFan
06-30-2004, 02:54 PM
I'd be very happy to get Allen for Al/Bender/Freddie. But I'm doubtful. I think Ray Allen is one of the best players in the league. I love watching him. It's like poetry.

Here's another option that I think has real potential to catch Seattle's attention: Al/Bender/Tinsley for Allen and filler. Remember, with Allen we would have someone who can create his own shot (finally!) and wouldn't be as dependent on Tinsley. But we would need to find a PG somewhere, not great but decent, whose ability is somewhere between Tins and AJ's.

Related, it might become a defensive liability to have both Allen and Tinsley on the floor, so a trade for an adequate PG with better defense than Tinsley makes sense.

Unclebuck
06-30-2004, 04:54 PM
Allen will be a betterdefender here. Look at the teams he has played on. Niether the Sonics or Bucks cared about defense.

Allen will be happy in our offense. Again look at the teammates he has had to share the ball with. I even think he could co-exist with Ron something I don't think could happen with Pierce.

I don't think we will get Allen though. I think it will be someone we can trade straight up for Al.


That is why the sonics coach and ray allen got into last season and why karl had trouble with ray, he doe snot pay defense.

Offensively he is superb. he is great runnign pick and rolls, he has surprising point guard abilities.

MSA2CF
06-30-2004, 06:00 PM
But we would need to find a PG somewhere, not great but decent, whose ability is somewhere between Tins and AJ's.

:love:

<----------What about this guy?

:fingerscrossed:

bulletproof
06-30-2004, 06:32 PM
Um, you might join the rest of us here in good ol' 2004, MSA2CF.

pacerwaala
06-30-2004, 07:09 PM
I would get Ray Allen here in a heartbeat. I agree with Hicks that he does not have much trade value. I think he is a hidden gem. If we get hime our two guard position is set for years to come. I would trade Al, Fred and Pollard for Ray if Seattle is willing. Some how people here value Fred Jones too much. He does not have a jumper or has a line drive jumper and takes 3 minutes to release his jump shot. An NBA slam dunk champion does not an NBA player make. He is athletic but with his size, the atheleticism will help only if he has a pullup jumper. He will never be a difference maker nor a major contributor.

MSA2CF
06-30-2004, 08:13 PM
Um, you might join the rest of us here in good ol' 2004, MSA2CF.

Do you doubt that Mark's PG skills are better than AJ?

edit: Even I don't understand that question. Are you saying that AJ has better PG skills than MJ?

Hicks
06-30-2004, 08:25 PM
We're saying MJ is old and is in retire territory. You're living in 2000 and before.

MSA2CF
06-30-2004, 08:36 PM
We're saying MJ is old and is in retire territory. You're living in 2000 and before.

I'll admit that, but a lot of people need to admit Mark has been underrated and/or underappreciated throughout his years in the NBA. Last I checked, Mark was #2 all time in assists, and he didn't get those statistics accidentally. There's a reason Mark has been in the league for 17 years.

Kegboy
06-30-2004, 10:22 PM
We're saying MJ is old and is in retire territory. You're living in 2000 and before.

I'll admit that, but a lot of people need to admit Mark has been underrated and/or underappreciated throughout his years in the NBA. Last I checked, Mark was #2 all time in assists, and he didn't get those statistics accidentally. There's a reason Mark has been in the league for 17 years.

And there's a reason he's been with 17 different teams, too. The man needs to hang it up.
---
:duel:

Pacer4fun
06-30-2004, 10:25 PM
I'm not sure we could do a Al for Ray, but we might be able to trade Chicago for Crawford and ship him to Seattle for Ray, along with filler. Perhaps Fred since he is form that region. Just a thought because I would like to have him here.

ChicagoJ
06-30-2004, 10:26 PM
We're saying MJ is old and is in retire territory. You're living in 2000 and before.

I'll admit that, but a lot of people need to admit Mark has been underrated and/or underappreciated throughout his years in the NBA. Last I checked, Mark was #2 all time in assists, and he didn't get those statistics accidentally. There's a reason Mark has been in the league for 17 years.

And that's the only reason he's ahead of Oscar, Magic, Isiah and others on the all-time assist list. He was a fine player with good court vision. Let's not get carried away. Currently he's an 8-mpg guy, max.

MSA2CF
06-30-2004, 10:42 PM
Okay guys, this can be discussed on a different thread. I don't think we need to continue this on a Ray Allen thread, do we?

I like Ray Allen, but Al and James are the only two players I feel are tradeable. I doubt that that is enough to get him.