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Trophy
04-01-2009, 06:33 PM
Maceo Baston
Marquis Daniels
Travis Diener (player option)
Stephen Graham
Jarrett Jack (most likely resigning)
Josh McRoberts (possible resign)
Rasho Nesterovic

What free agents are you upset to see go?

LOCBLB613
04-01-2009, 07:22 PM
def Quis but jack and mcrob will be back. others could carless sorry

MillerTime
04-01-2009, 08:04 PM
I could see us picking up Jack's qualifying offer, resigning McRoberts and possibly signing Diener and Graham if the price is right

Justin Tyme
04-01-2009, 09:40 PM
[QUOTE=TroyMurphy3;869533]


Travis Diener (possible contract agreement) /QUOTE]


Could you please explain this?

ReginaldWayne
04-01-2009, 09:46 PM
Maceo Baston
Marquis Daniels
Travis Diener (possible contract agreement)
Stephen Graham
Jarrett Jack (most likely resigning)
Josh McRoberts (possible resign)
Rasho Nesterovic

What free agents are you upset to see go?

and this?

Justin Tyme
04-01-2009, 09:47 PM
possibly signing Diener


To what? He signed a 3 year contract when Bird brought him to the Pacers, and he's in his 2nd year of that 3 year contract with a player option the 3rd year. He's signed for next season unless he opts out.

count55
04-01-2009, 10:34 PM
I could see us picking up Jack's qualifying offer, resigning McRoberts and possibly signing Diener and Graham if the price is right

You can't really "pick up" a qualifying offer. You make an offer of at least that amount, then you retain the right of first refusal when the player hits the market.

Generally, the only time that a player signs to the qualifying offer is when he's not happy with the team, and doesn't want to allow them to match. For example, Ben Gordon was unhappy with Chicago's offer last summer, he didn't want to test the market, only to end up back in Chicago, so he signed the qualifying one year offer, and that will make him an unrestricted free agent this summer.

I find it exceedingly unlikely that Jack will sign the one-year $3mm-ish qualifying offer. I expect a long term (4 year) contract.

Diener has a player option at $1.7mm. It is conceivable that he could get more than that on the market, but it is far from a sure thing. I'd be surprised if that was better than 50/50, and I think he'll consider that too big of a risk. I expect him to exercise his option.

I do expect McRoberts back, and I think the Pacers will probably have a standing offer for Graham at or slightly above the min, but Graham may look elsewhere, perhaps overseas, for more playing time.

None of the other FA's are of any concern to me...(and yes, Seth, that includes Marquis.)

I would be upset to see Jack go, disappointed (mildly) to see Diener or McBob go, unfazed by any of the others leaving.

MillerTime
04-02-2009, 12:06 AM
You can't really "pick up" a qualifying offer. You make an offer of at least that amount, then you retain the right of first refusal when the player hits the market.

Generally, the only time that a player signs to the qualifying offer is when he's not happy with the team, and doesn't want to allow them to match. For example, Ben Gordon was unhappy with Chicago's offer last summer, he didn't want to test the market, only to end up back in Chicago, so he signed the qualifying one year offer, and that will make him an unrestricted free agent this summer.
.

Thanks for that explaination

jeffg-body
04-02-2009, 12:13 AM
I'd say out of the group I would be a bit disappointed if Diener, Jack or McBob left.

PacerGuy
04-02-2009, 01:11 AM
I would be upset to see Jack go, disappointed (mildly) to see Diener or McBob go, unfazed by any of the others leaving.
Ditto!

Justin Tyme
04-02-2009, 12:14 PM
I would be upset to see Jack go, disappointed (mildly) to see Diener or McBob go, unfazed by any of the others leaving.


I agree with your comment about Jack, but if none of the rest are re-signed that won't upset me at all.

Trophy
04-02-2009, 04:46 PM
To what? He signed a 3 year contract when Bird brought him to the Pacers, and he's in his 2nd year of that 3 year contract with a player option the 3rd year. He's signed for next season unless he opts out.

Yeah that's what I meant. He's unrestricted but its his option.

NuffSaid
04-02-2009, 05:03 PM
Maceo Baston (will likely be released after 2008/2009 season; lacks post-up skills and not a strong post-defender)

Marquis Daniels (team option - won't get picked up; see comments on Jarrett Jack below)

Travis Diener (player option - may exercise it if assured backup-PG role; otherwise, may walk if better offer comes along)

Stephen Graham (will likely be released after 2008/2009 season; too many Wing players currently)

Jarrett Jack (qualifying offer - will likely be retained. Better all-around player than Quis; effective combo-Guard and healthier at approx $4.8M less)

Josh McRoberts (may be retained; still "green", but possesses natural athleticism; has quick hands and long arms; has a defensive mind-set. Would come cheap if retained)

Rasho Nesterovic (will likely be released)


What free agents would I be disappointed to see go?

Probably Graham because of all the players who returned from the '07/08 season, he showed the most stability as far as his overall preparidness, IMO. He always came ready to play and was effective nearly everytime he was called upon. A close 2nd would be Quis; but since we have Jack (assuming he is retained), I won't miss him too much.

Spirit
04-07-2009, 03:57 AM
The only ones of those I would be disappointed to see leave would be McRoberts and Diener. Jack is just too inconsistent in my opinion and doesn't bring much to the table when it comes to playmaking.

PaceBalls
04-07-2009, 04:44 AM
I think Jack is the 2nd best player on the team. I hope he is our starting PG next year and for years to come. I just think he is gonna get a nice offer from some other team that the Pacers won't be able to match. I really doubt the Pacers can keep him for 3m a year. I can see a team giving him 6-7mpy easy, maybe more, we will see.

The rest of the bunch I really don't care one way or the other. I say let them go and make room for whatever rookies there are.

Major Cold
04-07-2009, 09:13 AM
I think people only look at the box score and judge a player on that alone.

MillerTime
04-07-2009, 09:59 AM
I think Jack is the 2nd best player on the team. I hope he is our starting PG next year and for years to come. I just think he is gonna get a nice offer from some other team that the Pacers won't be able to match. I really doubt the Pacers can keep him for 3m a year. I can see a team giving him 6-7mpy easy, maybe more, we will see.

The rest of the bunch I really don't care one way or the other. I say let them go and make room for whatever rookies there are.

Thats why too much for Jack. If he gets that much for him (Ill be happy for him) but he'll definitely be overpaid and I wouldnt want to Pacers to match an offer like that. If he gets a deal similar to Foster's, Ill be happy.

Lets look at players getting in that $6-7 million range:
Salmons - $6.4
JR Smith - $5.5
Maxiell - $5
Jax - $7
Devin Harris - $7.2
Hedo Turkoglu - $7 but his will go up

Major Cold
04-07-2009, 10:38 AM
Thats why too much for Jack. If he gets that much for him (Ill be happy for him) but he'll definitely be overpaid and I wouldnt want to Pacers to match an offer like that. If he gets a deal similar to Foster's, Ill be happy.

Lets look at players getting in that $6-7 million range:
Salmons - $6.4
JR Smith - $5.5
Maxiell - $5
Jax - $7
Devin Harris - $7.2
Hedo Turkoglu - $7 but his will go up
Foster makes about that much money.

I would say that Jack will get no better than Carl Landry got last year.

MillerTime
04-07-2009, 10:42 AM
Foster makes about that much money.

I would say that Jack will get no better than Carl Landry got last year.

Thats 3 - 4 million range, seems fair

ABADays
04-07-2009, 10:47 AM
I have rarely seen a player seemingly so disinterested in playing for a team than Rasho. Let's get someone else.

CableKC
04-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Travis Diener (player option - may exercise it if assured backup-PG role; otherwise, may walk if better offer comes along)
With how bad things are with Team's financial situation....I don't see any team that would give Diener a long term contract where he would earn what he is currently earning in the final year of his contract. An "okay" Backup PG that is better suited to be a 3rd string PG isn't going to command a lot of attention.

pacergod2
04-07-2009, 11:22 AM
Jack will make roughly 4.75-5.25 in his first year of a new deal. That is my prediction. I think he will get more years from the Pacers than more money up front. Just my opinion.

Peck
04-07-2009, 11:47 AM
As a side note to all of this did anyone else hear the OKC announcers talk about Big Smooth saying that Stephen Graham was a vicitim of not fitting the coach's style? He thought Graham would leave the team and would be better off in another system?

I thought that was kind of weird and bold for a person who works for PS&E to make to another teams announcers.

Major Cold
04-07-2009, 11:53 AM
I am eager to see what he will get. Keep in mind that Ben Gordon is the combo guard to get in this FA market. If he gets a 3-4 year deal at 6.5 then I would be shocked. If the Pacers can get Jack in the 3-4 million range, that would be feesible. Not to say that they are equal, but if I remember correctly Gordon wanted more money. If I were him I would be happy with a Barbosa type deal (multi-year deal at around 6-7 million per).

I would think that Jack would get a deal like his cousin, CJ Miles (multi-year at 3.7 per)

Dooling signed at around 3 per year last year.

Delonte West was resigned last year (3.8 this, 4.2 next, 4.6 on final year)

Kelenna Azubuike (http://hoopshype.com/players/kelenna_azubuike.htm)- GSW matched the Clippers offer sheet (2.9 this, 3.1 next, 3.3 final)

Maurice Evans- Signed at 2.5 million

Ricky Davis- 2.3

The list goes on and on with combo guards and role players not getting offer sheets like 4.5-5.5. And that is in a better market. With the salary cap being reduced these types of players should be getting a 4% reduction at least.

Allen Iverson
Raymond Felton
Jason Kidd
Andre Miller


Not to mention the Juan Dixons. I think that getting Jack around 3-4 million is more probable than 4-5 million.

count55
04-07-2009, 11:53 AM
As a side note to all of this did anyone else hear the OKC announcers talk about Big Smooth saying that Stephen Graham was a vicitim of not fitting the coach's style? He thought Graham would leave the team and would be better off in another system?

I thought that was kind of weird and bold for a person who works for PS&E to make to another teams announcers.

I saw Sam on the TV, but I had it muted.

I would assume they were asking about Stephen because he went to OK State. I would think it was odd if it was just something that was volunteered, but it doesn't seem particularly untoward if it was the answer to a direct question.

I didn't hear it, so I don't know the tone or context, though.

count55
04-07-2009, 11:55 AM
I'm standing pretty firm on the 4 years at $16-18 total for Jack...give or take a little.

Major Cold
04-07-2009, 12:09 PM
4/14 million is my guess.

count55
04-07-2009, 12:19 PM
4/14 million is my guess.

Well, that would be great, but I think that if the total is that low, it might be a flat contract.

A max raise contract would only start at about $3.0mm.

I'd love for this to happen, but it seems a little light to me.

I would consider it a virtual impossibility for anyone to offer the previously speculated $6-7mm. It is simply too high.

Major Cold
04-07-2009, 12:30 PM
Well, that would be great, but I think that if the total is that low, it might be a flat contract.

A max raise contract would only start at about $3.0mm.

I'd love for this to happen, but it seems a little light to me.

I would consider it a virtual impossibility for anyone to offer the previously speculated $6-7mm. It is simply too high.


Obviously you know nothing about salaries and contracts and things of that nature....:D

I think this offseason we are really going to see how bad the NBA is. Will players like Jack jump overseas? Will contract numbers go down? Or will it going the way it has until the next CBA?

pacergod2
04-07-2009, 12:47 PM
I think you make a great point about new contracts. I think David Stern has made it clear to front offices the concessions that need to be made by the athletes for the next CBA to prevent a lock out. I think you will see a lot of changes to the contracts being given out this year. Especially since there isn't a lot of money and not a ton of talent in this free agent class. It will set the precedent for the next CBA, and the free agents in the 2010 off-season will be the last group to benefit from old rules, which will allow the big names in today's NBA to make their money and push through a new CBA without as much disdain. The lower level free agents won't have as much say in the whole deal but it clearly will affect them the most.

And to add to my prediction on Jack's contract I think his contract will be flat(ter). I think all of these contracts that have been getting signed for so long allow for 8% and 10.5% increases in salary which far outpace the rate of inflation. Even in the NBA. The salaries will probably have max raises in our next CBA of 5%. That is one of the things I think you will see more of this off-season is flat contracts. That will be a big reason why i see Jack making 4.75-5.25M as I stated because I think he will get a flat deal. Either 4 years at 21M or 5 years at 23.5M. That is the kind of deal I think we will see.

Speed
04-07-2009, 01:13 PM
The nice thing about Jack being a restricted free agent is he does mean more to a team than his numbers, imo. So I would hope you could get him at a value relatively, since his numbers don't jump out at you. Is there a team that will say we are willing to commit a starting point guard position to you. Now, I'm not saying the Pacers will say that, but Jack at least knows he has that opportunity here.

I'll just echo what others have said. I don't think a mid range free agent is going to have many options in this environment to get more than typical market value. I mean I doubt that one team will go on a spending spree and overpay for a guy who numbers wise isn't necessarily that much of a difference maker. Jack looks like gold here because he basically plays every night and secondly he is a leader at the point guard position. With the recent history at the point guard position that looks pretty awesome.

I guess the one thing you could think is if Lawson falls to them at 14 and Bird supposedly wanted to draft him last year in the first round before his trouble. Lawson would negate the need to even offer Jack a contract and just take the savings.

Conversely, if they are convinced that Jack can take the place on the team of Marquis then I guess they can still sign him, but then it again gets into what is his market value as an undersized 3rd/4th wing player.

I'd say offer a very middle of the road contract, maybe even a Bulls type declining offer, and live with whatever happens.

I say that and I really like Jack and appreciate his intangibles, but you have to mindful of the team's future.

He's at least one guy I would trust to sign to a long term contract and believe 100% he won't be embezzling money sitting in Atlanta in 3 years from now. So that's pretty important.

Justin Tyme
04-07-2009, 01:44 PM
With the economy the way it is in Europe I don't see the movement or the opportunity for mid-level players going there to play. Many team owners money was in oil and that has taken a dive since last offseason Euro signings. I see Jack at around 4 mil a year for 3-4 years. The options and money aren't going to be there like last offseason. JMOAA

Justin Tyme
04-07-2009, 01:50 PM
As a side note to all of this did anyone else hear the OKC announcers talk about Big Smooth saying that Stephen Graham was a vicitim of not fitting the coach's style? He thought Graham would leave the team and would be better off in another system?

I thought that was kind of weird and bold for a person who works for PS&E to make to another teams announcers.



I woudn't be surprised at all if Graham went elsewhere to play in a different system with the promise or feeling he can get more PT. I feel he's shown enough this season that he will get offers from other teams.

Dr. Hibbert
04-07-2009, 03:08 PM
It's a shame Quisy can't stay healthy, really. Not that the Pacers could afford him, but how many times (in his limited appearances) has he come in and really provided a HUGE spark off the bench, if not in a starting capacity? He's just so damn agile and really gets to the rim.

Of the list, I'm going to be generic and agree with Jack, McBob and Diener. I'm surprised anyone wouldn't want Jack back. He's not amazing, I don't think he's the starting PG of the future. But he really brings a winning attitude and is completely focused on doing whatever he can to help the team succeed. I know that's kind of a broad statement, shouldn't all players do that? Well, look at Rasho, or some players past. No, not all players care as much. Jack is part of a core that's really brought a winning attitude back to this franchise this year, it's been infectious and great for the rookies IMO.

I think what Jack brings is good shooting from either the 1 or 2 spot, depending on what JOB goes with next year, solid defense and decisions ranging somewhere worse than Diener's but better than Ford's. He has flaws for sure, still turns the ball over and sometimes just doesn't play well enough on the D end, but for ~$5MM he's definitely worth it for what he brings to the court night after night.

NuffSaid
04-07-2009, 04:25 PM
As a side note to all of this did anyone else hear the OKC announcers talk about Big Smooth saying that Stephen Graham was a vicitim of not fitting the coach's style? He thought Graham would leave the team and would be better off in another system?

I thought that was kind of weird and bold for a person who works for PS&E to make to another teams announcers.
I heard this, too. I think they announcers referenced comments made by Sam Perkins based on a conversation they had. I thought that was rather bold to make such an "pronouncement" before the season even ended.

That said, I like Stephen Graham's game. He's aggressive and always tries to play within the offense. However, he's more of a "freelance" type player; he doesn't necessarily play outside of set offenses, but from time-to-time will create for himself rather than defer to others. In a system like Nellie's w/the Warriors or the Suns that wouldn't be so bad, but here under JOB you have to work within the framework of the offense or else it breaks down and the team has a difficult time recovering.

I don't see Graham as a showboat; I see him as a player who's talents are not yet fully appreciated. He deserves a chance to play for a run-n-gun team that can best use his ability to score the ball from nearly anywhere on the court, has speed, strength and quickness, can play above the rim, but lacks those aspects of his game that Granger has been given the opportunity to improve upon: ballhandling, shot selection and accuracy, and defense.

The crazy thing here is had BRush not come along I think the goal was to use Graham in a backup SG role w/Granger at SF. IMO, the two of them on the floor together could have been a pretty tough duo has JOB given Graham more opportunities to shine ahead of BRush. We won't see that next year, however, but as the announcers have stated I seriously doubt Graham will return next year.

PaceBalls
04-07-2009, 05:25 PM
Interesting talk about Ben Gordon, do you guys think he is a better player than Jack is? I don't. Jack is a better player in almost all facets of the game as far as I can see.

Anthem
04-07-2009, 05:36 PM
I'd take Jack over Gordon any day. Gordon will generally put up more points, but I'm ok with that.

count55
04-07-2009, 07:03 PM
I'd take Jack over Gordon any day. Gordon will generally put up more points, but I'm ok with that.

x2

OakMoses
04-07-2009, 07:24 PM
Interesting talk about Ben Gordon, do you guys think he is a better player than Jack is? I don't. Jack is a better player in almost all facets of the game as far as I can see.

Ben Gordon is an elite scorer, quite possibly one of the top 10 players in the NBA at scoring the ball. If he played for a D'Antoni team he'd average close to 30 ppg. However, he doesn't do anything else very well, and he has some mental issues that probably hold him back as a player.

count55
04-07-2009, 07:33 PM
Ben Gordon is an elite scorer, quite possibly one of the top 10 players in the NBA at scoring the ball. If he played for a D'Antoni team he'd average close to 30 ppg. However, he doesn't do anything else very well, and he has some mental issues that probably hold him back as a player.

He's a latter day World B. Free.

Trophy
04-07-2009, 07:37 PM
I'd take Jarrett any day over Gordon. Gordon can be hot one game then be ice cold the following game.

MillerTime
04-07-2009, 07:47 PM
I'd take Jarrett any day over Gordon. Gordon can be hot one came then be ice cold the following game.

I agree. Plus Gordans defense is horrible

pizza guy
04-07-2009, 08:14 PM
I'd be upset if Jack left, he has been a big part of the restoration of the Pacers. His attitude and solid play have set the example for the kind of player the team needs and the fanbase wants to see.

I'll be disappointed to see Quis go. Not upset, because I don't see him as a vital cog in the works. But, I'll be disappointed because he's a player I really wanted to see in a Pacers uniform, and when we got him, it couldn't have been worse timing. The meltdown of the franchise, his health concerns, a couple of incidents off-court. I'm disappointed that his time here wasn't more productive and winning. I still really like him as a player, but he needs to be elsewhere.

While I like McBob, if he leaves, he leaves. I don't see the need to keep him, but it would be nice. Same for Deiner.

The rest probably won't be back, and that's OK.

--pizza

spreedom
04-08-2009, 10:00 AM
I agree. Plus Gordans defense is horrible

Agreed here as well. Gordon is a scorer first, second, and third. He doesn't drive often enough for how many shots he takes and settles too much. He'd be a great 6th man for the midlevel exception, but he has a star attitude and he's going to hold out for $10M per. No thanks.

Major Cold
04-08-2009, 10:02 AM
Agreed here as well. Gordon is a scorer first, second, and third. He doesn't drive often enough for how many shots he takes and settles too much. He'd be a great 6th man for the midlevel exception, but he has a star attitude and he's going to hold out for $10M per. No thanks.
I would hope that he doesn't think he can get that. I would rather have Jack at 4 million a year than Gordon at 7 million.