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thefeistyone
03-31-2009, 01:33 AM
Now I'm new here so I'm sure I've probably missed some of the discussion, but why all the hatred for TJ Ford? I've read quite a few post and the vast majority are all way higher on Jarret Jack than Ford. I mean if you look at the stats he's committed 3 more TO's but had 60 or so more assist in fewer minutes. I know Jack has spent more time playing the shooting guard, that is his natural position IMO.

Personally I would rather see Ford starting. I think Jack's ability to create his own shot is something that is needed with the 2nd unit. Ford has much better court vision along with being a better ball handler.

I guess I was a little surprised to see all the post that want TJ ford traded in the off season. If it's a contract thing wouldn't it be better to hold on to him for at least another year so you'd be able to trade his expiring contract?

MillerTime
03-31-2009, 02:18 AM
Now I'm new here so I'm sure I've probably missed some of the discussion, but why all the hatred for TJ Ford? I've read quite a few post and the vast majority are all way higher on Jarret Jack than Ford. I mean if you look at the stats he's committed 3 more TO's but had 60 or so more assist in fewer minutes. I know Jack has spent more time playing the shooting guard, that is his natural position IMO.

Personally I would rather see Ford starting. I think Jack's ability to create his own shot is something that is needed with the 2nd unit. Ford has much better court vision along with being a better ball handler.

I guess I was a little surprised to see all the post that want TJ ford traded in the off season. If it's a contract thing wouldn't it be better to hold on to him for at least another year so you'd be able to trade his expiring contract?

Ford can also be out of control at times and his shot selection isnt that great.

His contract will most likely end in 2011 (because he will probably exercise his player option)

imawhat
03-31-2009, 02:23 AM
Before the benching, TJ had run the offense into the ground by overdribbling. And anyone that forgot how Tinsley played defense gets a gamely reminder since the Toronto game.

While his offense has improved a lot since the benching, he still hasn't shown any effort to be the defender he can be.

I'm guessing most of the negativity comes from that.


His stats look pretty good on paper.

thefeistyone
03-31-2009, 09:23 AM
Before the benching, TJ had run the offense into the ground by overdribbling. And anyone that forgot how Tinsley played defense gets a gamely reminder since the Toronto game.

While his offense has improved a lot since the benching, he still hasn't shown any effort to be the defender he can be.

I'm guessing most of the negativity comes from that.


His stats look pretty good on paper.

Fair enough...I think comparing his defense to Tin's is a little bit of a stretch. He isn't near that bad. If its an effort thing then I would understand the negativity. I know he certainly has the speed to be a good defender.

Unclebuck
03-31-2009, 09:42 AM
I think TJ has been at times unfairly criticized in this forum. Not really sure why. I think some thought we were getting a player who was better than than Ford actually is. I think some didn't really know what we were getting, while others appear to have never liked his game to begin with.

(One thing I have been surprised about is how often he loses the ball by dribbling it off his leg, off his foot - even when he isn't being closely guarded - surprising for a point guard)

I've been a little torn on Ford the whole season. One reason is because I have been a huge fan of Jack for years, I have wanted the Pacers to get Jack for years. Ford was never a player that I ever really wanted on the Pacers. Don't get me wrong I was in favor of the trade (JO for Ford) last summer. And overall I've learned to appreciate Ford's game quite a bit.

He is a scoring point guard who has turned into a very good shooter out to about 20 ft. No he doesn't have good vision (he isn't Tinsley or Mark Jackson) he isn't a great ball handler and he lacks some of the point guard skills that I think most in this forum I gues assumed he had.

Having said all of that - I find it insulting to compare TJ's defense with Tinsley - Ford is a much better defender - in fact I've been more than satisfied with Ford's defense - it isn't bad.

One other thing to keep in mind. many of you have been almost giddy with the "benching of Ford" as if he hardly ever plays. he is still playing starter minutes - he still finishes every close game. IMO he is still a starter - he just doesn't start the games.

There have been several games this season where he was a huge factor in the Pacers winning the game late. His ability to create a shot has won a handfull of games this season.

Ford is what I thought he was before we acquired him last summer

MillerTime
03-31-2009, 09:49 AM
I think TJ has been at times unfairly criticized in this forum. Not really sure why. I think some thought we were getting a player who was better than than Ford actually is. I think some didn't really know what we were getting, while others appear to have never liked his game to begin with.

(One thing I have been surprised about is how often he loses the ball by dribbling it off his leg, off his foot - even when he isn't being closely guarded - surprising for a point guard)

I've been a little torn on Ford the whole season. One reason is because I have been a huge fan of Jack for years, I have wanted the Pacers to get Jack for years. Ford was never a player that I ever really wanted on the Pacers. Don't get me wrong I was in favor of the trade (JO for Ford) last summer. And overall I've learned to appreciate Ford's game quite a bit.

He is a scoring point guard who has turned into a very good shooter out to about 20 ft. No he doesn't have good vision (he isn't Tinsley or Mark Jackson) he isn't a great ball handler and he lacks some of the point guard skills that I think most in this forum I gues assumed he had.

Having said all of that - I find it insulting to compare TJ's defense with Tinsley - Ford is a much better defender - in fact I've been more than satisfied with Ford's defense - it isn't bad.

One other thing to keep in mind. many of you have been almost giddy with the "benching of Ford" as if he hardly ever plays. he is still playing starter minutes - he still finishes every close game. IMO he is still a starter - he just doesn't start the games.

There have been several games this season where he was a huge factor in the Pacers winning the game late. His ability to create a shot has won a handfull of games this season.

Ford is what I thought he was before we acquired him last summer

I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.

count55
03-31-2009, 09:57 AM
I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.

I think Rush's development and Jack's taking over the PG role are somewhat coincidental, and probably has more to do with the additional time that Rush is getting (and specifically the additional time with Danny) than the divergent styles of Ford and Jack.

Rush is largely getting the same looks he had before, he's just hitting them. I don't think it has a lot to do with Ford vs. Jack.

Unclebuck
03-31-2009, 10:13 AM
I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.

I think one thing has nothing to do with the other. Or maybe I could say look at how well Rush has developed now that Murphy is out of the lineup.


Rush has developed late like this because he is finally ready. Sure the playing time he got with Dunleavy out and when granger was out really helped him - but more than anything he was just ready

Dr. Goldfoot
03-31-2009, 11:16 AM
I feel like Ford is more of a dumper than a creator. He puts himself in a bad position then dumps it off to another guy in a bad position. It works sometimes.

ChicagoJ
03-31-2009, 11:26 AM
Ford is what I thought he was before we acquired him last summer

I agree with this. I agree with most of the pro's and con's you listed as well.

But man, this forum hyped him up last summer in a way he couldn't possibly live up to. And the disappointment that the actual TJ Ford was nowhere near the player he was overhyped to be is certainly part of the reason that everyone else is down on him lately.

I never liked his game to begin with. That doesn't mean that I think he sucks. I just want him to be the starter on somebody else's team.

There are clearly things he can do - but I don't think some of those things are important to winning basketball (although they make his stats look better) and some of the things that I believe are important to winning basketball are not TJ's strenghts (court vision and ability to finish in traffic). Clearly he's quick and can shoot from outside of five feet out to about 18-20 feet. And some people love those things in a PG. Not me.

But I think his "selfish" play/ attitude is what really caught people off guard. Tinsley is not the only PG in the league with baggage, people.

Anyway, the contrarian in me thinks that if the current sentiment gets much stronger, it will be time for me to start talking about the 2 or 3 things that TJ does that I like, instead of the 20-30 things I don't like.

:D

In conclusion, I think I agree with this comment about as much as I've ever agreed with UncleBuck,


One reason is because I have been a huge fan of Jack for years, I have wanted the Pacers to get Jack for years. Ford was never a player that I ever really wanted on the Pacers. Don't get me wrong I was in favor of the trade (JO for Ford) last summer.

Jack just has that hard-to-quantify mentally tough/ winner/ gets the job done characteristic that I love. (Something that I saw early on with Tinsley and have stubbornly refused to let go of in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.) Jack is a "fourth quarter" player.

Anthem
03-31-2009, 11:48 AM
But man, this forum hyped him up last summer in a way he couldn't possibly live up to.
Yep. I cringed every time I read "top 10 PG."

Also, I'm in the "wanted Jack for years" camp.

Pacersfan46
03-31-2009, 12:01 PM
I turned on Ford when I saw him get embarassed by someone on defense, and the next 4 plays on offense he just brought the ball up and took some stupid shot on the run or in traffic.

I was at the game, but I can't remember what it was that set it off, but I remember the entire crowd going "ooooooooh" and he was the one who got embarassed. It was just a very stupid turn of events that was the end for me. I just couldn't believe a PG brought the ball up the court 4 times, and with 0 passes. 4 stupid shots, and 0 made shots as well.

-- Steve --

BillS
03-31-2009, 12:05 PM
I think Rush's development and Jack's taking over the PG role are somewhat coincidental, and probably has more to do with the additional time that Rush is getting (and specifically the additional time with Danny) than the divergent styles of Ford and Jack.

Rush is largely getting the same looks he had before, he's just hitting them. I don't think it has a lot to do with Ford vs. Jack.

I disagree. I think Jack is a better passer out of traffic than Ford. I also think TJ has a tendency to wait too long to pass, meaning either that the shot has to be rushed OR that the receiver has relaxed out of shooting form thinking the ball isn't coming.

Rhythm is a very important part of what a PG brings, and I think Jack has better rhythm than TJ.

I'm not hating on TJ, he just isn't my kind of PG and isn't consistent enough to get me past that.

count55
03-31-2009, 12:25 PM
I disagree. I think Jack is a better passer out of traffic than Ford. I also think TJ has a tendency to wait too long to pass, meaning either that the shot has to be rushed OR that the receiver has relaxed out of shooting form thinking the ball isn't coming.

Rhythm is a very important part of what a PG brings, and I think Jack has better rhythm than TJ.

I'm not hating on TJ, he just isn't my kind of PG and isn't consistent enough to get me past that.

I think both Jack and Ford are flawed, but I like Jack better. It may be expectations, or it just may be personal preference.

I don't disagree with what you're saying here, but I really don't think Jack vs. Ford has a material impact on Rush coming out the last two games.

I think having the good defensive game against Wade may have had a bigger impact on Rush's head than anything the PG's are doing.

NuffSaid
03-31-2009, 01:21 PM
Ford can also be out of control at times and his shot selection isnt that great.

That's it right there in a nutshell.

I like TJ's hustle. He plays with a lot of passion, but he tends to try and dribble through defenses too often, and sometimes he's so out of control when he does.

There are times when you need your PG to be a distributor more than a creator, and times when you need your PG to be a penetrator and creator and not a distributor. TJ, from time-to-time, has a somewhat difficult time determining when is the right time to do either. That will come in time, but he tends to do it at the most inopportune times down the stretch. And that's what frustrates me so much about him.

I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.
I think there's something to this. BillS said it best...rhythm is everything in a transition game, and the Pacers rely heavily on that. Hence, they work best w/a "pass-first" PG rather than w/a "creator off the dribble" PG. Consider Murphy's success this year. Does anyone think he'd have been so successful from the perimeter this year had he not been the recipient of so many passess off the dribble as the trailor?

Granted, there are times when one works better than the other, i.e., having a Chris Paul or Devon Harris on your team as opposed to a TJ Ford, but for the Pacers' taste I think they'd rather have a combination of a TJ and Deiner running the Point - someone who'll take care of the ball, penetrate when the opportunities present themselves but be very willing to be unselfish w/the ball in transition. Jared Jack provides those qualities. I'm less nervous about what our PG will do when either JJ or Deiner are at the Point than I am w/TJ out there. I'm reminded too much of Tinsley whenever TJ's running the offense and that scares me!

Speed
03-31-2009, 01:24 PM
I think Uncle Buck is right about me at least. At the beginning of the season, I had unrealistic expectations for him. I had understood TJ as a scoring PG, but I was on the fence about how much so. Then he started off the season dropping dimes to Rasho regularly. So my mindset shifted thinking wow, he is a playmaker pass first guy. Then the real TJ showed over time. I don't hate on him, I'm disappointed cuz my own expectations were misplaced.

Next season, I'll probably appreciate him more. I actually do now that he's coming off the bench and producing.

I would love to see a second unit led by Dunleavy & TJ Ford, next year. I think that is as nice a fit as Danny and BRush or Hibbert and Murphy/Foster. I think those pieces really fit nicely and you'd have a really effective bench and a deep solid team, imho.

Speed
03-31-2009, 01:29 PM
I just couldn't believe a PG brought the ball up the court 4 times, and with 0 passes. 4 stupid shots, and 0 made shots as well.

-- Steve --

"Me either", says Jamaal Tinsley. :D

ChicagoJ
03-31-2009, 01:34 PM
"Me either", says Travis Best. :D

Fixed.

Infinite MAN_force
03-31-2009, 01:38 PM
I think Uncle Buck is right about me at least. At the beginning of the season, I had unrealistic expectations for him. I had understood TJ as a scoring PG, but I was on the fence about how much so. Then he started off the season dropping dimes to Rasho regularly. So my mindset shifted thinking wow, he is a playmaker pass first guy. Then the real TJ showed over time. I don't hate on him, I'm disappointed cuz my own expectations were misplaced.


Yeah me too, my opinion was based mostly on stats because I hadn't really watched him play. He averaged like 7 assists a game in about 20 MPG so I assumed that could translate to close to 9-10 assists or so playing over 30 minutes. Instead it has gone down. That many assists said "True" PG to me but the freedom of Obrien's offense has actually been a negative thing for TJ. He would probably be better if he was told what to do more often with more set plays. His decision making is poor and he is a bad fit here I think.

Unclebuck
03-31-2009, 01:40 PM
Not to get into stats. But TJ's current scoring average for this season of 15.1 is second on the pacers team and this is TJ's career high. His FG% of 44.5% is second highest in his career as is his 87% FT%. His current turnovers per game are less than his career average and his second lowest ever. His three point shooting is a career best by a wide margin. His assists however are a career low.

Not sure what my point in all of this except to suggest that he is who he is and this season is very typical for him and in fact in a lot of ways he is having a pretty good season.

Roaming Gnome
03-31-2009, 01:40 PM
Yeah, my biggest surprise about TJ was his lack of handles for as quick as he is. As Unclebuck mentioned, he often loses the ball by dribbling it off his leg and off his foot - even when he isn't being closely guarded.

He kind of reminds me of those Perelli tire commercials from the late 80's where they show sports cars skidding off the road with the quote at the end... "Speed is nothing without control!"

naptownmenace
03-31-2009, 01:56 PM
IHaving said all of that - I find it insulting to compare TJ's defense with Tinsley - Ford is a much better defender - in fact I've been more than satisfied with Ford's defense - it isn't bad.

That's the same exact thought I had when I read that comparison. TJ's done a good job against guys like Deron Williams, Billups, Nash, Bibby, and he even played Chris Paul about as good as can be expected in the 2 games against him.

Tinsley got lit up by opposing PGs on the regular. I still have nightmares of Billups destroying Tinsley and the Pacers during the playoffs. His man defense is one of the worst I've ever seen. TJ isn't the best but he's still better than Tinsley, IMHO.

I really like JJack, I've followed him since his college senior season and he is much better when he starts at PG. He was the same way in Portland so it makes since to have him start and let TJ play 6th man.

BillS
03-31-2009, 04:03 PM
His current turnovers per game are less than his career average and his second lowest ever. His three point shooting is a career best by a wide margin. His assists however are a career low.

I don't know how to prove it without a per minute analysis broken down by part of the season, but I'm betting his turnovers are down because his minutes actually bringing the ball up court are down.

The assists number is a huge red flag for me. By itself it could mean almost anything, considering we go through extended periods where the rest of the team are playing "miss the backboard", but I am inclined to believe it means Ford takes over the scoring too much, just as was supposed to have ignited the row a few games ago.

1984
03-31-2009, 09:03 PM
T.J. is a lot like Travis Best. I am confident that good coaching can break Ford's tendency to over dribble and drive into trouble.

I know many fans favor Jack. Personally, I can understand why, though I don't know I completely agree. Jack has his flaws as well. His assist to turnover ratio is nearly 1 to 1, and while he is a strong contributer at the point guard position, he will always be a "tweener." I think Jarret is an elite 6th man, but not a future starter at the point; that is assuming of course the Pacers become a strong championship contender.

Trophy
03-31-2009, 09:46 PM
T.J. is a lot like Travis Best. I am confident that good coaching can break Ford's tendency to over dribble and drive into trouble.

I know many fans favor Jack. Personally, I can understand why, though I don't know I completely agree. Jack has his flaws as well. His assist to turnover ratio is nearly 1 to 1, and while he is a strong contributer at the point guard position, he will always be a "tweener." I think Jarrett is an elite 6th man, but not a future starter at the point; that is assuming of course the Pacers become a strong championship contender.

I do agree with you that T.J. is a lot like Travis Best but I think that Jarrett is the better starting PG for us now and in the future with T.J. coming off the bench. We've had some success with Jarrett starting lately.

Anthem
03-31-2009, 09:56 PM
I think having the good defensive game against Wade may have had a bigger impact on Rush's head than anything the PG's are doing.
I agree with this.

I love having the guy who plays against the big scorer who just happens to have an off night. Coupla nights ago it was Wade, then tonight it was Gordon. "Clearly Rush can't defend him, this just happens to be an off night." But when EVERYBODY has an off night, then you start seeing a pattern.

scar
03-31-2009, 09:59 PM
I'd like to see Brandon continue this into next season. I'm not a fan of Dunleavy, so hopefully we can use Mike D off the bench as a 6th man and continue to groom Rush into a sidekick role with Danny.

ChicagoJ
03-31-2009, 11:19 PM
TJ Ford IS a lot like Travis, and there is not a single thing a coach can do to make him better.

The coach can't make him big enough to play effectively in the NBA. The coach can't give him better court vision. The coach can't help him make better decisions with the ball when he penetrates because the coach can't make him big enough to see around the big interior players. The coach can't help him get the ball over a bigger defender - all the coach can do is cover his eyes when he gets his shot swatted into an easy fast break. The coach can't really help him find the passing lanes that bigger players take away.

All the coach can do is sit him down when he realizes the bigger, stronger player (in this case, Jack) may not be as fast and flashy but actually gets the job done better.

BlueNGold
03-31-2009, 11:28 PM
I suggested awhile ago that TJ and Best are similar...but I did expect TJ to be better than Travis...and a lot closer to being at Tinsley's level. I must admit I was wrong about that.

PostArtestEra
04-01-2009, 12:03 AM
TJ Ford IS a lot like Travis, and there is not a single thing a coach can do to make him better.

The coach can't make him big enough to play effectively in the NBA. The coach can't give him better court vision. The coach can't help him make better decisions with the ball when he penetrates because the coach can't make him big enough to see around the big interior players. The coach can't help him get the ball over a bigger defender - all the coach can do is cover his eyes when he gets his shot swatted into an easy fast break. The coach can't really help him find the passing lanes that bigger players take away.

All the coach can do is sit him down when he realizes the bigger, stronger player (in this case, Jack) may not be as fast and flashy but actually gets the job done better.

Are you really insinuating that players of Ford's stature are incapable of being effective in the NBA. I am fairly certain you are far too knowledgable about basketball for this to be the case. However, if this is what you are implying, I think Allen Iverson, Damon Stoudamire, Terrel Brandon, Mookie Blaylock, and a host of others may beg to differ. If you are trying to say that something specifically about Ford makes him incapable of overcoming his vertical impediment I would appreciate some elaboration. As always I think everyone on here is way too hard on TJ. Granted, he isn't a bonafide superstar, but I still believe he is a much better than average point guard in this league.

danman
04-01-2009, 01:27 AM
TJ is a good player. I'm not sure where the derision about his D comes in, he's far better than Tin was and can actually stay in front of his man pretty well. Guys can shoot over him, but overall, he's decent.

His issue this year has been decision making on offense... when he decides to drive, too often he's decided to shoot as well. He also goes into hero mode and drives when there's nothing there.

But knowing the diff isn't easy, and I've been very pleased at how he's responded to coming in off the bench. His decision have really improved and he's looking for the pass more. Amazing what a demotion can do. He passed up an open 3 late in the game because he saw Danny free up a few feet over... Danny got the pass in rhythm and drilled it.

I think TJ has a bright future with the team. Aggressiveness can work in your favor as well, and a waterbug like TJ will always be useful at crunch time, when legs and arms of defenders are heavy.

thefeistyone
04-01-2009, 08:36 AM
I suggested awhile ago that TJ and Best are similar...but I did expect TJ to be better than Travis...and a lot closer to being at Tinsley's level. I must admit I was wrong about that.

Over the course of Best's career he averaged 7 points 3 assist. Ford is around 15 and 7. Let's not forget This is Ford's 5th year. Saying he can't improve his decision making is kind of silly unless you stopped learning when you were 26 years old.

Speaking of his decision making though. Ford is 21st among guards in TO per game. Let's look at some of the players who have more....Nash, Williams, Wade are your top 3, Parker, Iverson, and Kobe are up there too. I know Ford isn't as good a player as most of those, but as far as taking care of the ball I think some of you guys are a little hard on him.

ChicagoJ
04-01-2009, 11:22 AM
Are you really insinuating that players of Ford's stature are incapable of being effective in the NBA. I am fairly certain you are far too knowledgable about basketball for this to be the case. However, if this is what you are implying, I think Allen Iverson, Damon Stoudamire, Terrel Brandon, Mookie Blaylock, and a host of others may beg to differ. If you are trying to say that something specifically about Ford makes him incapable of overcoming his vertical impediment I would appreciate some elaboration. As always I think everyone on here is way too hard on TJ. Granted, he isn't a bonafide superstar, but I still believe he is a much better than average point guard in this league.

This was a follow up to a rant I had a few months ago, in which I made a big distinction between a 6'1" PG and a 5'11" PG.

But at this point, you're cherry picking some of the best players guards ever (Iverson, Stoudamire, Brandon) who also happened to be very small. What's the saying with Iverson - he plays much bigger than he actually is. There's a much longer list of "skilled" guys 6 foot and under that never made much of an impact in the pros. Tyus Edny, anyone?

That's different from TJ in so many ways I can't even get started.

As we said with Travis, if he were 6'5" he might have been an all-pro SG. Travis was a good ball player but didn't have prototype PG skills. I'm not even sure that's true with TJ. He's just quick and nothing more.

As for Iverson, his court vision isn't great but he's exceptional at finishing at the rim and uber-tough. As for Damon, other than offcourt issues, his size was working against him as his quickness declined. Besides, in Portland, he had the luxury of playing with one of the best PF/C rotations in history (Arvyddas, Rasheed, Grant). As for Brandon, he was just special. Blaylock was 6'1". That's a big difference in my opinion. Sure, I'd rather the PGs be 6'3", but I can live with 6'1" better than 5'11". When you're already the smallest player on the court, but expected to handle the ball the most, that inch or two means a lot.

ChicagoJ
04-01-2009, 11:24 AM
Over the course of Best's career he averaged 7 points 3 assist. Ford is around 15 and 7. Let's not forget This is Ford's 5th year. Saying he can't improve his decision making is kind of silly unless you stopped learning when you were 26 years old.

Speaking of his decision making though. Ford is 21st among guards in TO per game. Let's look at some of the players who have more....Nash, Williams, Wade are your top 3, Parker, Iverson, and Kobe are up there too. I know Ford isn't as good a player as most of those, but as far as taking care of the ball I think some of you guys are a little hard on him.

Are you including ill-advised layup attempts in those turnovers? Because in my opinion when a small PG shoots a layup in traffic that is the same thing as a turnover - its a wasted possession. A made FG or trip to the line is a "bonus".

flox
04-01-2009, 01:47 PM
I think Ford still has some time to develop. He's been in different situations a lot and he's a lot of time because of scary injuries. He's 26 but in terms of actually court time he's probably a bit behind in terms of development.

danman
04-01-2009, 01:52 PM
Are you including ill-advised layup attempts in those turnovers? Because in my opinion when a small PG shoots a layup in traffic that is the same thing as a turnover - its a wasted possession. A made FG or trip to the line is a "bonus".

I'm not sure why you wouldn't simply assess that with TJ's FG percentage. A missed layup is the least likely miss to lead to a fast break -- missed 3's occasionally kick back long rebounds that lead to points on the other end.

TJ shoots about 45%. His assists to turnovers is better than 2:1. He scores 15ppg, gets over 5apg. None of those are earth-shattering, but they are pretty good. Nor is TJ the weak link on D... we've got a couple very weak links, but they aren't in the backcourt.

On the Pacer list of needs, PG is nowhere near the top. I wouldn't object to a tall PG to give us matchup options, but seriously, TJ has some strong plusses.

ChicagoJ
04-01-2009, 02:11 PM
When his layup gets swatted into the backcourt, that's a pretty easy 2-1 break (since he's also not in position to get back on defense either, by definition.)

You do realize that part of his dribble penetration "skills" are that opposing teams with a good shot blocker WANT him to penetrate and shoot, right? So they'll play him tighter and won't worry if he gets around their PG.

While he does shoot slightly better than 50% on his "close" shots (nothing to be proud of), he gets them blocked almost 15% of the time.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08IND1.HTM

From a scouting perspective, he's super easy to "solve" from a defensive standpoint if you have a quality shotblocker.

Noodle
04-01-2009, 02:57 PM
Interesting J. These statistics show me he's great in the clutch. What your complaining about is mostly systematic flaws. Late in the shot clock his teammates expect him to get is own shot, forcing him to sometimes take bad shots. These stats reflect that scenario too.

CableKC
04-01-2009, 03:07 PM
When his layup gets swatted into the backcourt, that's a pretty easy 2-1 break (since he's also not in position to get back on defense either, by definition.)

You do realize that part of his dribble penetration "skills" are that opposing teams with a good shot blocker WANT him to penetrate and shoot, right? So they'll play him tighter and won't worry if he gets around their PG.

While he does shoot slightly better than 50% on his "close" shots (nothing to be proud of), he gets them blocked almost 15% of the time.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08IND1.HTM

From a scouting perspective, he's super easy to "solve" from a defensive standpoint if you have a quality shotblocker.
Just to add to ChicagoJs argument.......TJ also has a very bad habit of dribbing into the paint and then finding himself stuck in a forrest of Big Men surrounding him with no where to go or pass the ball to. I cannot count how many times he has literally dribbled himself right under the basket and either tries to pass the ball to someone that gets picked off or ends up shooting it up to get the ball swapped. It's like he can get himself into a spot on the court that not many other Players can get to....but once he gets there...more often then not....he has no clue what he's gonna do.

I won't be upset IF we keep him.....but as long as we address our PG needs some other way....I wouldn't be surprised if we try to move him for some other players during this offseason to try to improve roster. I know the first thing to say is that we can try to move MurpLeavy in the offseason.....we can....but Murphy is the closest thing we have to a PF on a roster that has very little depth Frontcourt and Dunleavy is coming off a season-long injury. In all honesty, he's one of the few tradeable assets ( including Foster ) that we have that a Team would actually want ( where he fills a need ) that can actually improve this team THIS OFFSEASON.

Pacersfan46
04-01-2009, 03:30 PM
I want to throw things at my TV sometimes watching Ford, but I will say he has his moments. As long as he uses his ability to drive to stop and shoot a short (say 10-15 feet) jumper I'm generally okay with it. It seems much higher percentage than him driving to the rim in the half court.

He does seem to have a knack for hitting key jumpers at the end of games too. Either way, I'm fine with keeping him as long as it's off the bench. I'd love to see this team with Ford/Dunleavy as the key components off the bench. With Hibbert, Murph, Granger, Rush and Jack as the starters.

Fortunately I think Dunleavy is good enough team guy, he'd be okay with it. I think.

At the same time, with money being an issue and have a few roster spots to fill this year I could see Ford going somewhere in a 2 for 1 deal to keep the salary the same but filling another roster spot. We shall see.

-- Steve --

danman
04-01-2009, 04:53 PM
1. I dunno where you guys are getting that missed layup = fast break. Yes, the shooter is down low, but please. It's very rare. Are you arguing for the sake of aguing? If you want to take about real side effects of missed layups, it's that they get put back more often because the driver often draws a post defender. C'mon now.

2. Yes, TJ gets caught out on a drive and sometimes turns it over and sometimes he misses. Neither his turnover ratio nor his shooting percentage suggest that is a horrible issue. Jarret Jack has a much worse assist-turnover ratio and it isn't even an issue on this board.

3. The issue to me -- and I imagine to JoB -- is that TJ sometimes decides to force the issue when he doesn't need to. He will occasionally not make the sensible pass on the way to the rim.

4. On a team where you watch Murph and Rasho make a joke of playing D, and Marquis brick 3's to distraction, and Granger plays lazy D, I find it amazing that so much criticism goes to a clutch shooter who, at his best, creates offense when the offense has broken down. Moreover, one of the few Pacers who actually moves his feet on D.

Naptown_Seth
04-01-2009, 05:02 PM
While his offense has improved a lot since the benching, he still hasn't shown any effort to be the defender he can be.
The almost disinterested look on his face last night after Rose had blown past him for a rebound slam putback that could have been solved simply by him locking him up. Sure Rose could board over him but it wouldn't be a flying in uncontested slam.

Par for course with him. On the ball he likes to chase the steal and has the hands to do it (sounds familiar) but most of the time he's just waiting to go back the other way.

He continues to drive right to a spot in the lane where he's trapped away from a kickout pass and with no chance shooting over the big in front of him with his dribble picked up. That's a position of extreme weakness for an offensive player, and yet it's still going on many times per game.


T.J. is a lot like Travis Best. I am confident that good coaching can break Ford's tendency to over dribble and drive into trouble.
Not if he's like Best they won't. Best never did solve his issue. Just like TJ vs the Bulls Best hit enough shots in big moments for average fans to not only forgive him but love him. However I think most hardcore fans saw that you wouldn't need nearly as many late shots if you just had better PG play in the first 47 minutes.

Naptown_Seth
04-01-2009, 05:07 PM
On a team where you watch Murph and Rasho make a joke of playing D
Actually while Troy is slow on D he plays it better than TJ as a whole. Last night was a perfect example. He switches early, he reads where he needs to help pretty well, and in general seems to be one of the most in-synch team defenders right now.

People go right at TJ early and often. They call for switches to get the ball on him. They don't just post up on him, they pull up jumpers over him. And it works.

TJ helps a little, but far less than Troy. So while Troy will get roughed up by quick PFs with handles, he at least tends to come right back at them on the other end to get even.

And I'm not even a Troy fanboy. Many people would say I don't like him. But that's just where his game is at right now and knocking teammates over for rebounds 2-3 times per game doesn't diminish the rest of what he's getting done (including the many legit boards).

Naptown_Seth
04-01-2009, 05:22 PM
I think having the good defensive game against Wade may have had a bigger impact on Rush's head than anything the PG's are doing.
I'll join Anthem in agreeing with this.

My long standing theory with all young players is that they each have that moment where they have success against a highly respected talent and the epiphany hits them that they actually belong out there.

A classic moment from my memory was Al Harrington putting a wicked spin to dunk move on SA-Rahim back when he was considered a top star. Suddenly from that point forward he played much better and started making that pre-operation spin move a staple in his game.

Dr. Goldfoot
04-01-2009, 05:54 PM
I think the most interesting stat Chi-J's 82 games link shows us about T.J. is that he takes nearly half of all his shot attempts within the 1st ten seconds of the shot clock. The other interesting stat is that a quarter of his "close" shots in crunch time get blocked.

Then you look at his turnovers and see that 67 of them are ball handling related.


Then you look at Jack and see that 15% of his close shots are blocked and 67 of his turnovers are ball handling related.

Then you look at the draft and try to find a way for this team to get a point guard.

BlueNGold
04-01-2009, 06:24 PM
Over the course of Best's career he averaged 7 points 3 assist. Ford is around 15 and 7. Let's not forget This is Ford's 5th year. Saying he can't improve his decision making is kind of silly unless you stopped learning when you were 26 years old.

Speaking of his decision making though. Ford is 21st among guards in TO per game. Let's look at some of the players who have more....Nash, Williams, Wade are your top 3, Parker, Iverson, and Kobe are up there too. I know Ford isn't as good a player as most of those, but as far as taking care of the ball I think some of you guys are a little hard on him.

If Travis Best were on a sub .500 team like this with very little talent, he would be putting up bigger numbers and getting much bigger minutes. Instead, he played for years on a contender during his prime behind a great PG. If Ford had been Mark Jackson's backup, he would have never been allowed to wheel out that 1 on 1 garbage. He would have been forced to adjust his game or not get on the floor.

Also, Best was not big but was physically strong (nearly 20lbs heavier than TJ) and as a result was a very good defensive player. TJ Ford is extremely quick, but is weak and easy to over power. As a result, he usually leaves the job of stopping his player to the PF (Troy Murphy)...hence, the usual layup.

Not saying Best was better because he had some major flaws...but they were no bigger than TJ's gaping holes. The fact TJ is on a bad team calling his own number does not make him a better player.

ChicagoJ
04-01-2009, 07:06 PM
1. I dunno where you guys are getting that missed layup = fast break. Yes, the shooter is down low, but please. It's very rare. Are you arguing for the sake of aguing? If you want to take about real side effects of missed layups, it's that they get put back more often because the driver often draws a post defender. C'mon now.

I'm talking about blocked layups. A big % of his misses are blocked.

He'd be better off just driving to the basket but aborting the shot attempt and just dribble out of bounds. (Okay, that is a slight exaggeration.)

flox
04-01-2009, 08:46 PM
Yay, I love stats! For point of reference, this is what i'm looking at:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08IND1.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0607/06TOR1A.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR1A.HTM
First of all, we have to say that TJ is becoming more effective.
When we look to his attempts, we see that he is actually taking more drives and taking more close shots this season, and that he seems to be more efficient due to the increase in shooting percentage for close and inside. And yes, his percentage is only sub fifty. Too bad he isn't like Jack, who is around 52-53.

His assist to bad pass ratio is decent, and he has a better one than Jack, and Nash surprisingly.



When we talk about his blocked attempts, lets look at other PG's who attempt close shots.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08NOH1.HTM
Paul has relatively the same rate, and yet you would want him to drive.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08UTA1.HTM
Same with Williams
http://www.82games.com/0809/08DET3.HTM
And with Iverson.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08SAS1.HTM
And his blocked rate is identicial to Parker.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08IND3.HTM
Lookie here, Jack has a higher inside blocked rate. And he has the same amount of handling turnovers even though he handles the ball less, and his hands rating is lower, while TJ has shown in the past that he can have very good hands.

PS: Granger has been blocked at the rim more than Ford has, percentage wise. Funny eh?

joeshmoe
04-01-2009, 10:16 PM
I just wanted to add one thing to the discussion. The reason TJ's assist #'s are down significantly is O'brien's offense. It is a ball motion offense which creates a lot of assists but spreads them more evenly among all the players. For example, as a team Indiana is 7th in the league in assists per game. But TJ just ranks 22nd in assists. New Orleans, on the other hand, ranks 28th in assists per game, but their leading assist man ranks first. It is just a different style of play.

The last couple of years TJ has averaged about 13 assists per 48 minutes which puts him in the top five. This year he is at 8.2 per 48 or 23 rd.

imawhat
04-01-2009, 10:34 PM
Having said all of that - I find it insulting to compare TJ's defense with Tinsley - Ford is a much better defender - in fact I've been more than satisfied with Ford's defense - it isn't bad.

You'd probably find it more insulting if I put together some video highlights from the past few games and you got to see TJ taking plays off just like Tinsley. It is RIDICULOUS how much he's given up in the past month.

The #1 indicator, every night, is whether or not TJ is fighting through picks/screens. Within one minute of playing, you'll know what kind of night he'll have defensively.


The thing is, I believe TJ can be (and has been in the past) a much better defender. And for that reason it's very frustrating.


Also, I think he can be a much better player on offense. In fact, I think 80-85% of the negative impact he has is caused by him trying too hard in some facet of the game (i.e. going to deep to score, rushing the fast break, etc.).

If anything, the past few games are a great example of this. Far less overdribbling, far less layups in congested traffic, quicker decisions on the fast break, far better output. To me, the highlight last night was the fast break with the dish/dunk to Brandon.

I think he has the court vision, as he's shown sporadically, and the speed to make a very good player.

duke dynamite
04-02-2009, 12:21 AM
I'm not sure. I think it was on Dakich's show today that there was a lot of praise for TJ's play. I agree.

I honestly think he is doing not too bad of a job. If you notice, when he takes those desperation shots, there aren't too many other *consistent* options available.

PostArtestEra
04-02-2009, 01:11 AM
I just wanted to add one thing to the discussion. The reason TJ's assist #'s are down significantly is O'brien's offense. It is a ball motion offense which creates a lot of assists but spreads them more evenly among all the players. For example, as a team Indiana is 7th in the league in assists per game. But TJ just ranks 22nd in assists. New Orleans, on the other hand, ranks 28th in assists per game, but their leading assist man ranks first. It is just a different style of play.

The last couple of years TJ has averaged about 13 assists per 48 minutes which puts him in the top five. This year he is at 8.2 per 48 or 23 rd.

Great point. Except you stole it from me! J/K. Seriously though here is a post I made a few weeks ago.
"To all the people hating on T.J. Ford for not being a distributor: the Pacers are currently fifth in the NBA in assists. Our offense simply isn't conducive to one player racking up a ton of assists. The offense is very open and pass heavy, i.e. everyone touches the ball, so both guards, forwards, and even big men can get assists. For example, we have a whopping 9 guys on our roster that average at least 1.7 assists per game. The Hornets on the other hand have only 3. So even though Chris Paul averages 11 assists per game, as a team we average more assists than the Hornets. So please cut T.J. some slack, he is a good pg, and much of the criticism of him on this board is unfounded."

I'm not really accusing you of thievery, I assume this is more of a "great minds think alike" scenario. Anyway, I'm glad someone else understands the situation. Also, once again, to those of you complaining about T.J. going to the hoop and not distributing the ball: this is also a result of the system, not Ford's talent. We sometimes spread the floor, ISO TJ at the top of the key, and allow him to break down his man while everyone else stands motionless watching. He simply has no other option but to take a difficult layup sometimes. We also do the same thing with Jack, Daniels, hell even Granger. Oddly though, no one criticizes them. I'm starting to think people around here just have a "blame the PG" fetish. Seriously though, if bad decision making is your main argument against TJ (and for some it seems to be), how do you feel about Danny jacking up contested threes 6 or 7 seconds into the shot clock. Is Danny beyond reproach, or are you somehow able to understand that this is a result of the system, despite inexplicably blaming TJ for his role in the system.

ChicagoJ
04-02-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm not sure. I think it was on Dakich's show today that there was a lot of praise for TJ's play. I agree.

I honestly think he is doing not too bad of a job. If you notice, when he takes those desperation shots, there aren't too many other *consistent* options available.

Well, somebody must not be doing a good job somewhere. We're way under 0.500 and about to be mathematically eliminated.

If it is not TJ/ our PGs, then who is it?

BillS
04-02-2009, 01:10 PM
Well, somebody must not be doing a good job somewhere. We're way under 0.500 and about to be mathematically eliminated.

If it is not TJ/ our PGs, then who is it?

That there were a number of things at the beginning of the season that have settled down now?

I tend to flinch at the phrase "doing a bad job", and I reserve it for those not playing to their potential or making stupid mistakes.

I don't think most of the team has been doing a bad job as such, I just think they don't have the talent needed to get to the next stage of development.

Note, however, that when TJ gets trapped on Yet Another drive to the basket, the words "doing a bad job" go through my mind...

ChicagoJ
04-02-2009, 01:50 PM
I agree on the talent deficiency. But just because somebody is maxxing out thier potential does not mean they are doing a good job.

I mean I "could" do my very best to play PG for the Pacers, but the results would be so bad that even Duke wouldn't try to say "Ah, Jay's doing a good job out there."

If everyone is doing a good job, the results would be better. I appreciate that they're doing their best but upgrades are still needed. (Some of the upgrades are taking place as Rush and Hibbert continue to blossom.)

naptownmenace
04-02-2009, 02:14 PM
Also, once again, to those of you complaining about T.J. going to the hoop and not distributing the ball: this is also a result of the system, not Ford's talent. We sometimes spread the floor, ISO TJ at the top of the key, and allow him to break down his man while everyone else stands motionless watching. He simply has no other option but to take a difficult layup sometimes. We also do the same thing with Jack, Daniels, hell even Granger. Oddly though, no one criticizes them. I'm starting to think people around here just have a "blame the PG" fetish. Seriously though, if bad decision making is your main argument against TJ (and for some it seems to be), how do you feel about Danny jacking up contested threes 6 or 7 seconds into the shot clock. Is Danny beyond reproach, or are you somehow able to understand that this is a result of the system, despite inexplicably blaming TJ for his role in the system.

I totally agree with the above. TJ isn't the perfect PG but he's about 80% pros versus 20% cons. Compare that to Tinsley's 40-60% ratio and it should be easy to see he's an upgrade.

I don't think he's totally realized his potential but he's still a young player with room and time to improve. The Pacers should definitely keep him around for another year.