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MillerTime
03-28-2009, 07:29 PM
I've been thinkg about this a lot lately. I tihink Rush will have a better NBA career than Granger. Rush has always showed that he had a lot of potential, but the last couple of games Rush has been able to score and manage to defend the opposing teams best defender.

Rush's confidence has risen and he clearly showed it today against the Bulls. I can't wait to see Rush in his 3rd season

BlueNGold
03-28-2009, 07:43 PM
I can see the potential Rush has to be even better than Granger, but I don't think Granger is done improving and there are very few players that have improved at the rate Granger has done. Most players only get marginally better...so I would have a difficult time making assumptions beyond that.

idioteque
03-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Rush and Granger are two totally different players that will have two totally different kinds of careers. Both fill (or will fill) important, hard to find roles on a quality team. Brandon Rush will never be a prolific scorer though, don't let one 18 point quarter fool you. At the same time, Danny Granger is never going to be an elite defender. Just remember there is much more to a good or great player than how many points they average a game.

Is Shane Battier better and more important to a team than a healthy Yao Ming? Is Bruce Bowen in his prime more important than Tim Duncan? Don't really know, but both players in each case are very important cogs in the system.

duke dynamite
03-28-2009, 08:10 PM
I'm going to disagree, MillerTime, but anything is possible. Two or three games isn't enough to warrant a discussion on who of the two will be better.

I do believe that Brandon will be a better defender throughout his career than Danny will be.

Anthem
03-28-2009, 08:28 PM
Define "better."

I mean, I guess you could say that Bruce Bowen had a better NBA career than Reggie Miller.

You could say it, nobody would agree.

Kaufman
03-28-2009, 08:34 PM
are apples better than oranges?

count55
03-28-2009, 08:34 PM
are apples better than oranges?

They certainly act like they are, but, I don't know...

MrSparko
03-28-2009, 10:41 PM
Rush and Granger are two totally different players that will have two totally different kinds of careers. Both fill (or will fill) important, hard to find roles on a quality team. Brandon Rush will never be a prolific scorer though, don't let one 18 point quarter fool you. At the same time, Danny Granger is never going to be an elite defender. Just remember there is much more to a good or great player than how many points they average a game.

Is Shane Battier better and more important to a team than a healthy Yao Ming? Is Bruce Bowen in his prime more important than Tim Duncan? Don't really know, but both players in each case are very important cogs in the system.

That might be pushing it. I mean I get where you're going with this, but no way is Bruce Bowen more important then the best power forward ever. (Unless you consider Russell a power forward?)

Quis
03-28-2009, 10:53 PM
He had a fantastic game today, but let's not go overboard with the praise (see: Williams, Shawne).

Roaming Gnome
03-29-2009, 12:43 AM
are apples better than oranges?

Apples give me a tummy ache...

Granger V. Rush... If they are both on the team in a couple years, then it might be time to consider this.

El Pacero
03-29-2009, 05:08 AM
He had a fantastic game today, but let's not go overboard with the praise (see: Williams, Shawne).

Couldn't have said it better, but I do think he is going to become solid. He just started joking around with the team the past three weeks according to Conrad, and had been the team jokester during college. He's just now getting comfortable as a rookie. Let's wait to see what he can do next year, but after just tonight I'm honestly excited about a Granger / Rush combo starting line up.

idioteque
03-29-2009, 09:27 AM
That might be pushing it. I mean I get where you're going with this, but no way is Bruce Bowen more important then the best power forward ever. (Unless you consider Russell a power forward?)

I also see where you're going, but say Bowen is replaced with a relative defensive liability and Duncan has to play help defense much more than he usually does, and he gets two quick fouls in the first quarter, has to sit down, and due to foul trouble throughout the game he misses 8 or so more minutes of the game than Pops wanted him to. Hard to be the best power forward ever when you're sitting on the bench.

Now, if Bowen is out there the whole game and Duncan is hurt, maybe the Spurs don't have a chance at all. But utility guys are much more important than most give them credit for. People tend to forget about this type of thing when the NBA is shoving star marketing down our throats.

Spirit
03-29-2009, 12:09 PM
I don't really care who will be considered better, I am just excited that they will be our starting wings for a long time. Both have potential to be excellent defenders and both will be good scorers (though Granger will be better at this), and I could see a starting swing combo of Rush/Granger being championship caliber (providing we can get a good low post scorer and a few more good pieces).

Anthem
03-29-2009, 02:36 PM
I don't really care who will be considered better, I am just excited that they will be our starting wings for a long time. Both have potential to be excellent defenders and both will be good scorers (though Granger will be better at this), and I could see a starting swing combo of Rush/Granger being championship caliber (providing we can get a good low post scorer and a few more good pieces).
Agree.

I'm completely content with Granger/Rush as the wings of the future, and Hibby down low. Jack will work for the interim, although I don't consider him the final answer at PG. Foster works well as the first big off the bench, and Dun is the same is a good wingman to bring in at either spot. Travis is fine as a backup PG. The major hole is at starting PF.

I've actually come around on Murphy, and appreciate what he brings to the table. He's played his heart out this year, and I appreciate it. But I don't see him as a long-term solution at PF, and if he could be moved that would be fine with me. Same with TJ. And, of course, Tinsley.

Pacersfan46
03-29-2009, 03:22 PM
I think this is premature. Maybe sometime next year this could be a relevant topic.

I generally subscribe to the rule that you truly don't know what exactly you've got until season 2. During the season it's hard to improve a whole lot, or add new things to your game. In the first offseason is when you truly see how bad a guy 'wants it'.

I hope Brandon wants to improve as badly as Granger, but you never know. If he comes in next year scores 12+ ppg and without lapses in defense, I'll be happy.

.... now if only we could find a tough minded, defensive and athletic PF. I'd be in heaven.

-- Steve --

Infinite MAN_force
03-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Agree.

I'm completely content with Granger/Rush as the wings of the future, and Hibby down low. Jack will work for the interim, although I don't consider him the final answer at PG. Foster works well as the first big off the bench, and Dun is the same is a good wingman to bring in at either spot. Travis is fine as a backup PG. The major hole is at starting PF.

I've actually come around on Murphy, and appreciate what he brings to the table. He's played his heart out this year, and I appreciate it. But I don't see him as a long-term solution at PF, and if he could be moved that would be fine with me. Same with TJ. And, of course, Tinsley.

Jack is like Haywoode Workman, I am cool with him starting for the time being but we still need to be on the lookout for a Mark Jackson to enter contender status someday.

People may think Im crazy for thinking Mcbob has potential to be a starter qaulity player some day but I really think the skills he brings to the table really would compliment Hibbert well. He wont ever be a low post scorer but if he can defend opposing 4s at a high level, rebound, block shots, and develop a reliable jumper to pair with Roy's low post game I like the sound of that as a potential front court. Mcroberts has shown good potential in all those areas. Athletic defensive PF eh? hmm...

As it goes, I think Troy is our starter there till his contract is up, which I am ok with for the time being.

On the topic at hand, I couldn't be much happier with Rush and Granger on the wing, and with dunleavy as 6th man if he ever gets healthy. Thats a pretty sick wing rotation right there. I think Larry has done a very good job going for players who compliment each other well.

Kstat
03-29-2009, 03:51 PM
Comparing Rush to Granger is no less absurd than comparing granger to scottie pippen....

the entire rush family combined doesn't compare to granger.

Pacersfan46
03-29-2009, 04:52 PM
Comparing Rush to Granger is no less absurd than comparing granger to scottie pippen....

the entire rush family combined doesn't compare to granger.

Eh, I see a difference. At least Granger v Pippen it's comparing all star to an all star. Even though I'd clearly call Pippen the better player.

With Rush and Granger you're comparing a guy who's been in and out of the rotation vs an All Star.

-- Steve --

Naptown_Seth
03-29-2009, 08:53 PM
I can see the potential Rush has to be even better than Granger, but I don't think Granger is done improving and there are very few players that have improved at the rate Granger has done. Most players only get marginally better...so I would have a difficult time making assumptions beyond that.
I agree. Rush to me isn't that far off his final level. He's getting comfortable as an offensive player, but for the most part he brought a strong awareness at both ends already. Sure he's going to learn and tweak his game, but I don't see him having the incredible level of growth Danny has had.

Let's not underestimate just where Danny is at. He's going to make more all-star games unless he drastically falls off. He might be headed for the #2 all-time NBA Pacers slot, and who knows if that's even the limit.

Obviously I thought since before they drafted him that he was a good guy to get, but not because I thought he'd grow into a multi-AS caliber guy. Heck, I was slotting him late teens and a solid 6th-7th man going into the draft. I thought they kind of reached for him a bit.



Comparing Rush to Granger is no less absurd than comparing granger to scottie pippen....Why can't you compare Granger first 4 years to Pippen first 4 years?

Please don't even try to pull out some crap that Pippen was a HOF player after year 4, after ONE all-star nomination. We (this includes you) didn't know that Pippen would certainly continue his trend and go on to all those titles and all-NBA nominations.

The very reason I most compare Granger to Pippen is their SLOW GROWTH. Both saw their statistical output rise from just "not bad" to all-star in those 4 years. Neither was a case of being an all-star out of the gate just waiting to be noticed. In fact both players got recognized pretty quickly, far quicker than Reggie Miller seemed to (first nom is year 3, yes, but then nothing during the next 4 seasons).


For me this kind of comparision is about looking at trajectories and plotting out where things are possibly headed. It's not the same as wild speculation about changes we have no reason to think will happen. If Granger develops on more step, his on-ball defense, then he's going to many AS games and a comparison to Pippen will remain valid the entire time.

No rational person is saying Granger NOW is equal to Pippen END OF HIS ENTIRE CAREER.

Look, I know some of the absurd speculation bugs you. It bugs me too. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here, we can wonder if Paul will be better than Stockton or if Deron Williams is on pace to being the next Magic Johnson without a bunch of outrage.



Brandon Rush will never be a prolific scorer though, don't let one 18 point quarter fool you. At the same time, Danny Granger is never going to be an elite defender.
Which is why they make nice complimentary teammates going forward. I mean seriously, isn't Rush a better match with Danny at this point than Dun? If they moved Det for McKey to get rid of redundant offense and to bring in improved wing defense isn't a swap of Dun for Rush similar?

Naptown_Seth
03-29-2009, 08:58 PM
THREAD DERAIL

People may think Im crazy for thinking Mcbob has potential to be a starter qaulity player some day but I really think the skills he brings to the table really would compliment Hibbert well
I don't think your crazy. I totally agree. I've yet to see anyone point out an specific flaw as shown by a play or series of plays that would limit him. This isn't Mark Pope out there. He's fast as hell, he's got great hops for a big, he's got solid handles, passes pretty well, has an okay jumper, loves to get after it on defense, and I think he plays great off the ball in a style you'd expect from a Duke player.

This is why I'm dumbfounded about his lack of PT. He never seems to flop when he comes in and yet I had to watch 2 minutes of horrible ball from Baston the other day, yet again. Mace has totally lost a few steps, no longer has the hops from even 2 years ago, and is IMO about at the end of his career. Why he plays at all is beyond me. And to make it worse we have to watch Rasho struggle through his minutes with an output that's well off the level he started the season at.

As I've said before, at least JO was buried at the end of a deep front line in Portland. Who's keeping McRoberts on the bench? Heck, I love Foster and I wouldn't sweat seeing some of his minutes go to Josh too.

1984
03-29-2009, 09:18 PM
This is a very presumptuous thread. Based on Rush’s season play and NCAA career, there is no way one could possibility assume he will have a better career than Danny Granger. That being said, the smart money would be on Granger. [1] Rush has had ACL surgery and based on injury histories Danny has been more durable. That alone answers my question in the “here and now.” [2] Furthermore, Danny has proven he has a very high ceiling as he continues to improve game after game. Rush on the other hand has had a series of “hot games.” This isn’t to say that he has or hasn’t improved. However, at this point saying Rush will be better than a true all-star is very presumptuous.

Infinite MAN_force
03-29-2009, 09:50 PM
THREAD DERAIL

I don't think your crazy. I totally agree. I've yet to see anyone point out an specific flaw as shown by a play or series of plays that would limit him. This isn't Mark Pope out there. He's fast as hell, he's got great hops for a big, he's got solid handles, passes pretty well, has an okay jumper, loves to get after it on defense, and I think he plays great off the ball in a style you'd expect from a Duke player.

This is why I'm dumbfounded about his lack of PT. He never seems to flop when he comes in and yet I had to watch 2 minutes of horrible ball from Baston the other day, yet again. Mace has totally lost a few steps, no longer has the hops from even 2 years ago, and is IMO about at the end of his career. Why he plays at all is beyond me. And to make it worse we have to watch Rasho struggle through his minutes with an output that's well off the level he started the season at.

As I've said before, at least JO was buried at the end of a deep front line in Portland. Who's keeping McRoberts on the bench? Heck, I love Foster and I wouldn't sweat seeing some of his minutes go to Josh too.

It drives me crazy after watching tonight's game where he can't even get on the floor until the last 20 seconds where all we did was run out the clock.

People clamor for an athletic PF and I want to pull my hair out because we have one. Unlike the Graham and Diogu end of the bench comparisons people like to make, the IQ and instincts appear to be there, and defense is actually the primary positive contribution he has brought to the table. Graham and Diogu score but are/were otherwise worthless, Josh has been the opposite.

With no playoffs in sight he still sits on the bench... it just don't make a bit of sense to me doc...

MrSparko
03-29-2009, 09:52 PM
It drives me crazy after watching tonight's game where he can't even get on the floor until the last 20 seconds where all we did was run out the clock.

People clamor for an athletic PF and I want to pull my hair out because we have one. Unlike the Graham and Diogu end of the bench comparisons people like to make, the IQ and instincts appear to be there, and defense is actually the primary positive contribution he has brought to the table. Graham and Diogu score but are/were otherwise worthless, Josh has been the opposite.

With no playoffs in sight he still sits on the bench... it just don't make a bit of sense to me doc...

Making sure his price stays at the min allowed? I know others have put that out as a possibility.

Anthem
03-29-2009, 09:54 PM
Sure [Rush]'s going to learn and tweak his game, but I don't see him having the incredible level of growth Danny has had.
Sure, that's fair, but to be completely honest I didn't think DANNY would have the incredible level of growth that Danny's had.

Over the summer, most of us were hoping Danny wouldn't regress too far from last year after getting his big payday. Instead he came out and blew the doors off. I sure wasn't expecting that.

docpaul
03-29-2009, 09:56 PM
It drives me crazy after watching tonight's game where he can't even get on the floor until the last 20 seconds where all we did was run out the clock.

....

With no playoffs in sight he still sits on the bench... it just don't make a bit of sense to me doc...

He's either a doofus during practice and outside game time or they're trying to keep his value low before signing him this offseason to a low range, multi-year contract.

Here's to hoping it's the latter... 4-5 million over 3 years would be great.

They've clearly stated a number of times that McRoberts is a multi-year "project".

Infinite MAN_force
03-29-2009, 10:01 PM
Making sure his price stays at the min allowed? I know others have put that out as a possibility.

I have been one of them. But at this point in the season I don't see how coming out and making a few nice defensive stops, a nice dunk and pulling a few rebounds (probably coupled with a few dumb fouls) in 10-12 minutes is exactly gonna raise his value out of our price range, especially in this economy. I don't think hes ready to come out and dominate or anything, but **** man, give me a taste.

Trader Joe
03-30-2009, 12:48 AM
When I look at Rush I see a guy that can max out 15-18ppg (depending on the system), 5-6 boards, 3 assists, and incredible defense. All-star? Probably not, unless he were to make it as a bench player because the TEAM was having an incredible. Rush compliments Danny well. Much better than Dun compliments Danny. It wouldn't even be a fair comparison if we had a reliable starting PG. For the most part, everything Dun does well, Danny does better. The only difference is that Dun is a better passer, and Danny is improving that quickly. Now Dun could be a great piece off the bench especially if you had another solid defensive wing off the bench that could be used in situational instances.

Naptown_Seth
03-30-2009, 08:05 PM
Sure, that's fair, but to be completely honest I didn't think DANNY would have the incredible level of growth that Danny's had.

Over the summer, most of us were hoping Danny wouldn't regress too far from last year after getting his big payday. Instead he came out and blew the doors off. I sure wasn't expecting that.
Honestly I thought he could, though certainly I wasn't sure. As I've said, the whole Granger is Pippen thing very directly derived from me just comparing their first 2 seasons stats and then continuing on into this and last year. By year 3 I was thinking he could become an all-star because the comparison was so close.

It's true that Granger is the PF version of SF while Pippen is the SG version in terms of how they play, though ironically the 3 ball ability is in total contrast to that for both of them, but how his numbers have grown has been kinda close. At times they are really similar.

I've always thought Brandon's game was SG McKey and I still do. It wasn't like Derrick was the cat's butt on offense. But draft night and since then (before too a bit) I was warning of the impending frustration fans would have with his scoring.

At KS he had these bursts like we've seen, he COULD score and I think we hadn't seen that nearly at his best level this season, but his thing is that he would defer despite that. Thus the McKey thing. Aggressive on defense, very smart away from the ball at both ends, but ultimately just not as comfortable with being "the man".

But then again I didn't think Danny would find comfort with that either and the Pippen aspect plays into that. Pippen was not the take over type of player that Danny has become this early in his (and Pips) career.

So on that point I'll concede. It could be that Brandon breaks his shell in terms of being in charge, perhaps feeds off Danny and develops less of a "Jordan-Pippen" thing and more of a Francis-Mobley kind of vibe, who in their prime fed off each other like few other perfectly balanced tandems.



All I know is that Jack has really improved his game the last 2 months and Brandon has been solid all year on defense and just looking to dial in his offense. Meanwhile Bayless can't get in games very often and usually not for very long when he does.

Naptown_Seth
03-30-2009, 08:11 PM
I have been one of them. But at this point in the season I don't see how coming out and making a few nice defensive stops, a nice dunk and pulling a few rebounds (probably coupled with a few dumb fouls) in 10-12 minutes is exactly gonna raise his value out of our price range, especially in this economy. I don't think hes ready to come out and dominate or anything, but **** man, give me a taste.
I know. It's so weird that you question your own rational thought. But then I talk to other PD'ers that I trust and they are feeling the same way and you just get stumped.

Maybe they want the price to stay low I guess. I kinda wish it wasn't that way if it's the case. And then I also wonder just how much his price is going to rise on minimum play.

Then again maybe this is also why they are playing Rasho, to lower his value. ;) :p

Yes, that was a truly Most Offensive Poster kind of comment. Rasho's going to join PD just to vote a few times himself now.

Trophy
03-30-2009, 08:41 PM
Both guys are great players. I don't think Brandon will be the better player than Danny in his career. Brandon will improve like Danny has but I still think Danny will finish as the better player. It's still early to tell with Brandon because he's still a rookie. Same with Danny in his rookie year. Only time will tell.

Brad8888
03-31-2009, 01:08 AM
Rush is the better athlete. He also will likely develop the swagger that the elite players must have to dominate games at a higher level than Danny. Regardless of the actual outcome, we have a legitimate wing rotation that could potentially rival any in the league even next year, let alone beyond that.

naptownmenace
03-31-2009, 05:05 PM
I also see where you're going, but say Bowen is replaced with a relative defensive liability and Duncan has to play help defense much more than he usually does, and he gets two quick fouls in the first quarter, has to sit down, and due to foul trouble throughout the game he misses 8 or so more minutes of the game than Pops wanted him to. Hard to be the best power forward ever when you're sitting on the bench.

Now, if Bowen is out there the whole game and Duncan is hurt, maybe the Spurs don't have a chance at all. But utility guys are much more important than most give them credit for. People tend to forget about this type of thing when the NBA is shoving star marketing down our throats.

Duncan won a championship before Bowen and he's lost in the Playoffs to eventual champions with Bowen. He's a good cog but I think he's far from irreplaceable.

Most would argue that he's only the best defender on the team, second to Duncan. I'd definitely agree with that.

naptownmenace
03-31-2009, 05:08 PM
Regarding who will be better than whom, this thread reminds me a lot of the Dunleavy vs. Granger thread from last season. The poll results are way in Danny's favor just like last year's poll. :D

Will Galen
03-31-2009, 05:43 PM
The best hope from an Indiana Pacer prospective is both to have lots of all star appearances and to still be debating this in six years.