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View Full Version : Whats going to Happen to TJ Ford in 2011



MillerTime
03-25-2009, 06:49 AM
What do you guys believe is going to happen with Ford? Ford has a player option in 2010 for $8,775,000 that I'm sure hes going to exercise. Do you feel that we should keep Ford until 2011 or trade him earlier?

I would love to trade Ford for Ellis. Supposedly Ellis isn't happy in GS. I would love him here in Indy. I would be a bit reluctant to touch Ellis' huge contract though, but its definitely worth noting him.

joeshmoe
03-25-2009, 08:27 AM
If we trade Ford we wont have a true point guard.

duke dynamite
03-25-2009, 08:34 AM
Ha ha, I remember making that avatar...lol

You're right, joeshmoe.

Dr. Goldfoot
03-25-2009, 08:52 AM
If they keep him they still wont have true point guard. He can't manage a game at this level. Just ask Mark Boyle, who has said so several times this season.


(Actually Boyle has said this team wont move forward until they get a point guard who can manage a game. He never directly said T.J. Ford can't manage a game. But since they already have Ford and he's of this opinion I can assume he doesn't think T.J. can either)

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 08:54 AM
It all depends on what we get out of the draft. I like Jack a lot, but I'm not sold on him as the PG of the future. If we could score a guy like Jennings in the draft, I'd be happy to let Ford go and roll with a Jennings/Jack/Diener 3-headed PG monster.

I voted for letting him expire in 2011 because I think that is the most likely scenario.

MillerTime
03-25-2009, 09:04 AM
Does anyone have interest in Monta? Hes not liking his time in GS. Maybe we can move Ford and another for him?

Any comments?

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 09:07 AM
Does anyone have interest in Monta? Hes not liking his time in GS. Maybe we can move Ford and another for him?

Any comments?

I wouldn't be upset if we traded for him, but I wouldn't be all that happy either. He's another small, scoring guard. If anything he's less of a true PG than Ford or Jack.

stevo
03-25-2009, 09:10 AM
TJ seemed to be a smart move at first but most nights all I see
is someone out of control. JJ to me is starting to move his game
to the next level. He is hitting big time shots. He's a better scorer
than TJ, He's a better defender than TJ. With this team thats all that
really matters when you have people like Murphy and Granger combining
for 5 assists per game. I voted trade him this summer.

Jonathan
03-25-2009, 09:15 AM
T J is fine. He has won us a few games this year. If we do draft a PG he will not come in and be the man.

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 09:16 AM
Actually Boyle has said this team wont move forward until they get a point guard who can manage a game.

I love that Boyle actually has an opinion. When I watch the TV broadcast, I get the feeling that the guys are holding back a lot.

I've thought this same thing about our PG's since Jackson left. You could never say with any certainty that Tinsley wasn't going to do something stupid. The same goes for Ford and Jack. At this point, I really want Diener in at the end of games if we have a lead.

beast23
03-25-2009, 09:38 AM
If I had to choose between the two, I would definitely take Jack over Ford. Not because he just had the recent fantastic game, but because I think he plays a little more under control and is a much much better defender. He is also much more affordable.

The problem is that there is probably a 50% or greater chance that we will not have Jack next season. If that is the case, with the present financial state I really don't see us acquiring the PG we all want other than through the draft. Given that, then we need TJ at least through next season.

We complain about Murphy's and Dunleavy's salaries, but to me the real limiting factor on our flexibility is the albatross that has been excommunicated from the team. Without Tinsley's salary, we would at least be able to acquire one decent talent as we tinker with the roster this summer. I guess the pessimist in me doesn't see any significant improvement coming for the PG or PF slots unless we get really lucky through the draft. Bummer.

MillerTime
03-25-2009, 09:39 AM
If we trade Ford we wont have a true point guard.

Correct me if im wrong. But arent most PG in the league now, not true PGs?

Ill list a few:

Bibby
Rose
Jameer Nelson
Mo Williams
Hinrich
Stuckey
Baron
Ellis
Sessions
Devin Harris
Duhon
Westbrook
Arenas


Its not that common to find a pure PG in the NBA these days, so its seems

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 09:52 AM
Correct me if im wrong. But arent most PG in the league now, not true PGs?


Ill list a few:

Bibby
Rose
Jameer Nelson
Mo Williams
Hinrich
Stuckey
Baron
Ellis
Sessions
Devin Harris
Duhon
Westbrook
Arenas

Its not that common to find a pure PG in the NBA these days, so its seems

I suppose it all depends on how you define a pure PG. I don't think being a scorer excludes a guy from being a true PG. There's a difference between a true PG and a pass-first PG.

Here's what I want in a PG:
-Can bring the ball up the floor by himself against pressure
-Doesn't make bad decisions on a consistent basis
-Can create open shots for teammates
-Is a leader/organizer on the offensive end of the floor
-Doesn't look for his own shot to the detriment of others

I think guys like Bibby, Billups, and Baron Davis are true PG's even though they're not pass-first PG's.

stevo
03-25-2009, 09:57 AM
. There's a difference between a true PG and a pass-first PG.




There is? I think we are splitting hairs with this statement.

BRushWithDeath
03-25-2009, 10:04 AM
If it's possible to trade him this summer, you do it. But who would want him?

Speed
03-25-2009, 11:12 AM
I think it's a money issue with TJ in that you'll have trouble moving him due to the length of his contract in the current NBA landscape. Monte Ellis has a worse contract, I think, and isn't a Point Guard either, but is a nice scorer. So if you traded TJ for Ellis you'd be taking on more contract, which would probably be what has to happen to move TJ and his contract at this point.

Just my opinion, I'm not clear on what his on court value is to other teams, though. I'd imagine not much, since he has lost his starting position twice and most recently on a well, let's be honest, a not good team. Plus the injury history, so who knows for sure.

As for TJ, I'll say this cuz it's my opinion and it's more feel than tangible evidence, so keep that in mind.

TJ reminds me of JO. Here's why. He's not as good as he thinks he is. He thinks he's being a good teammate and a leader, but he's not naturally a good leader. TJ has the "want to" to be able to take over a game, but not the "know how" to make others around him better. Lastly, TJ interviews really well and wants to say all the right things, it's almost canned in his responses, sometimes. To me, all of that reeks of JO.

On Jack, I think if you're looking for a guy who is going to be a point guard and average 7-8 assists a game, he's not your man, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have PG qualities. Here's why.

He's a natural leader in action and word. He's not a guy you see that when he says stuff there are guys rolling their eyes, they seem to really listen. Why?

Well I think they know he is a complete and utter team first guy. A guy who may mess up, but it wasn't because he was being selfish or cuz he didn't hustle or work hard enough in practice to prepare. That's HUGE.

Also, I really do not think that Jack gives a crap about his stats during a game or season. I'm sure he's aware of them and I'm sure his agent will point to them when trying to land a contract, but Jack plays to win. Ya, a cliche, but I get the impression that he really just cares about the team first and his teammates before himself.

I can completely see how when the ball stops with TJ on the perimeter that Jack gets pissed, it's disruptive to the team concept. With all of this said I think Jack is hardnosed guy who is a key ingredient to having a winning environment with his leadership and his abilities.

What I'm not even close to being sold on is if you can be a playoff team with Jack as your starting Point Guard. I think Jack, though, does still have room for growth and I really really hope he's in a Pacers uniform next year. I think he, at the very least, can be a key component in the team starting to turn the corner in the Win/loss column. I'm so high on Jack and his natural leadership that I could see him as the first guard off the bench for a team in the Finals.

So anyway, I wanted TJ to be my favorite player. I still think he can play in the right system and in the right match up he's a nightmare, but I just have really soured on him over the course of the year. I don't hate him, I wouldn't feel bad at all if he played out his contract here, I just don't think in any way is he the answer I hoped for at starting Point Guard. As for Jack, I think he's a keeper.

sloopjohnb
03-25-2009, 11:26 AM
If we trade Ford we wont have a true point guard.
Unless of course we were to bring back a true point in the trade somehow.

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 11:35 AM
I can completely see how when the ball stops with TJ on the perimeter that Jack gets pissed, it's disruptive to the team concept. With all of this said I think Jack is hardnosed guy who is a key ingredient to having a winning environment with his leadership and his abilities.


The thing I've noticed with Jack lately, and I'll be watching for it tonight as well, is that he's been making quicker decisions. His shots are either quick jumpers in transition, kick out 3's, or instant drives to the basket. You never see him spend 5-6 seconds trying to break his man down off the dribble. All those shots come within the flow of the offense, they don't stop ball movement or discourage other guys from trying. I don't think Jack is a traditional PG in terms of assists and creating for others, but that's not what O'Brien's asking him to be. In terms of maintaining the flow of the offense, Jack's doing a much better job than TJ right now.

To TJ's credit, I thought he played much better in the Charlotte game.

d_c
03-25-2009, 12:04 PM
Does anyone have interest in Monta? Hes not liking his time in GS. Maybe we can move Ford and another for him?

Any comments?

Despite what you might think, Ford isn't a Nellie type of PG.

Speed
03-25-2009, 12:09 PM
The thing I've noticed with Jack lately, and I'll be watching for it tonight as well, is that he's been making quicker decisions. His shots are either quick jumpers in transition, kick out 3's, or instant drives to the basket. You never see him spend 5-6 seconds trying to break his man down off the dribble. All those shots come within the flow of the offense, they don't stop ball movement or discourage other guys from trying. I don't think Jack is a traditional PG in terms of assists and creating for others, but that's not what O'Brien's asking him to be. In terms of maintaining the flow of the offense, Jack's doing a much better job than TJ right now.

To TJ's credit, I thought he played much better in the Charlotte game.

I agree. I think Obie does an excellent job of instilling a confidence in shooters, if they are good shots, and I think you see this in Jack's play.

plutarch
03-25-2009, 12:10 PM
honestly after what i have seen from him he will be here next year but we will not resign him. i consider this years draft to be a good opportunity to maybe find a true point guard and have all next season to get him polished up on the nba game and after tj leaves he should take over the point. i do think this years draft has a number a point guards, so hopefully we make a good choice to get one that is not necessarily a super star but one that can be a good starter for this team.

idioteque
03-25-2009, 12:23 PM
Shop him around and see what type of offers are out there. I think he has respectable value since he has been relatively healthy in the recent past and he is an NBA caliber PG.

I would prefer to trade him if possible, if not, nothing wrong with letting him expire.

Spirit
03-25-2009, 12:24 PM
honestly after what i have seen from him he will be here next year but we will not resign him. i consider this years draft to be a good opportunity to maybe find a true point guard and have all next season to get him polished up on the nba game and after tj leaves he should take over the point. i do think this years draft has a number a point guards, so hopefully we make a good choice to get one that is not necessarily a super star but one that can be a good starter for this team.
Eric Maynor, though i'm not sure if he's worthy of a lottery pick.

wintermute
03-25-2009, 12:34 PM
i agree a lot with speed's post. jarrett jack may or may not end up being a starting quality pg, but his qualities are such that you'd want him on the team regardless.

tj has been disappointing, even with the rather low expectations set by "bad" tinsley. the best thing that you could say of ford is that at least he's been relatively healthy. if i were tptb, i'd definitely be shopping him around this summer.

MillerTime
03-25-2009, 01:17 PM
Despite what you might think, Ford isn't a Nellie type of PG.

why do you say that?

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 01:27 PM
Despite what you might think, Ford isn't a Nellie type of PG.

What exactly is a Nellie type PG? Baron Davis played well for him, but doesn't he essentially have Jackson running the offense this year?

d_c
03-25-2009, 01:40 PM
why do you say that?

Nellie actually likes playing big in the backcourt. He likes being quick up front, which usually equates to playing small, so he likes making up for that by playing big in the backcourt.

Next year, he wants Stephen Jackson at SG. He wants a big backcourt. He likes his guards to be able to post up (Tim Hardaway, Baron, Mitch Richmond, Jackson, etc...).

TJ Ford isn't that type of guard. He's obviously not posting anyone up. With the things Nellie often asks out of his guards, Ford with his health history would probably be run to the ground 50 games into the season under Nellie. He wouldn't last.

MillerTime
03-25-2009, 01:43 PM
Nellie actually likes playing big in the backcourt. He likes being quick up front, which usually equates to playing small, so he likes making up for that by playing big in the backcourt.

Next year, he wants Stephen Jackson at SG. He wants a big backcourt. He likes his guards to be able to post up (Tim Hardaway, Baron, Mitch Richmond, Jackson, etc...).

TJ Ford isn't that type of guard. He's obviously not posting anyone up. With the things Nellie often asks out of his guards, Ford with his health history would probably be run to the ground 50 games into the season under Nellie. He wouldn't last.

Seems weird, because they let Baron go and signed Ellis to a long term deal who isnt capable of posting anyone up...and now to mention extended Nellie's contract (if im not mistaken)

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 01:57 PM
He wants a big backcourt. He likes his guards to be able to post up (Tim Hardaway, Baron, Mitch Richmond, Jackson, etc...).


It's been said before, many times, many ways, but...

maybe he wants Tinsley.

Unclebuck
03-25-2009, 02:17 PM
One thing no one ever mentions (that I have seen) is that O'Brien wants a point guard who doesn't dominate the ball, he wants a point guard who moves the ball and can play without the ball. Ford doesn't do any of those things very well. Ford just isn't the type of point guard that O'Brien likes. Jack and Diener both are more the type of point guards that Jim likes.

The problem is Ford is the most talented of the 3 - at least at creating offense with the ball (yes I know he dribbles into trouble, yes I know he turns it over) but there has been a number of games where Ford has bailed the Pacers out late in the games running pick and rolls.

stevo
03-25-2009, 02:57 PM
I agree that Jack is more of type of player JOB wants. Mainly because he knows his limits and boundaries as a player and doesn't try to do something he cant. Whereas TJ is often very cavalier. JJ has bailed the Pacers out this season as well.. I would hate to see him go.

OakMoses
03-25-2009, 03:30 PM
One thing no one ever mentions (that I have seen) is that O'Brien wants a point guard who doesn't dominate the ball, he wants a point guard who moves the ball and can play without the ball. Ford doesn't do any of those things very well. Ford just isn't the type of point guard that O'Brien likes. Jack and Diener both are more the type of point guards that Jim likes.

The problem is Ford is the most talented of the 3 - at least at creating offense with the ball (yes I know he dribbles into trouble, yes I know he turns it over) but there has been a number of games where Ford has bailed the Pacers out late in the games running pick and rolls.

I alluded to it in post #18 of this thread, but didn't state it nearly as clearly as you do here. I don't remember too much of O'Brien's stint in Philly, but I wonder how he did with Iverson. I know he didn't have much to speak as far as PG's go when he was in Boston.

d_c
03-25-2009, 03:37 PM
It's been said before, many times, many ways, but...

maybe he wants Tinsley.

The chances of Tinsley going straight into Nellie's doghouse are very high. Simply too high to commit to the remaining $14M of his deal.

This is a guy on the wrong side of 30, hasn't been healthy in awhile and right now nobody knows if he's in shape. You'd be asking him to play for a coach who demands his players to be in tip top shape (or else they sit at the end of the bench) and asks his guards to play a very physically demanding style.

It'd be a trainwreck waiting to happen. Basically, just a more expensive version of what happened with Marcus Williams.

count55
03-25-2009, 03:50 PM
I alluded to it in post #18 of this thread, but didn't state it nearly as clearly as you do here. I don't remember too much of O'Brien's stint in Philly, but I wonder how he did with Iverson. I know he didn't have much to speak as far as PG's go when he was in Boston.

IIRC, he got along fine with Iverson...He played Iverson at the point, and AI averaged roughly 31 pts and a career high 8 (7.9) assists...he also averaged 4.6 TO's...

I believe I had Iverson on my fantasy team that year...it seems he (Obie) didn't get along with Dalembert, but things really fell apart when Webber got there.

Iggy got 82 starts as a rookie.

Justin Tyme
03-25-2009, 04:02 PM
I'd like to see Ford traded, but that's easier said than done.

Lets get to the meat of this issue, and that is with the contracts of Murphy, Dunleavy, and Ford have the Pacers stuck between a rock and a hard place. It limits the capabilities of doing much of anything. If you can't trade Ford, who looks to be the easiest of the 3 to trade this summer but really not that easy to trade, that doesn't leave much room for improvement.

The following offseason those 3 player's contracts become expirings which might allow the Pacers an opportunity to improve thru trades. My belief is the Pacers are pretty stuck this coming season with letting expirings go, getting a couple of draft picks, re-signing Jack, Graham, and McBob, and MAYBE being able to pick up one or 2 of those "anywhere"/dime a dozen a players in the 1-2 mil salary range to round out the roster. That's about it unless Bird can wave a magic wand to get a trade by using one of those 3 and/or Foster. The ideal fantasy is one of those 4 with Tinsley and filler for a couple of serviceable players with short contracts. Again, that's a true fantasy, so reality is next year looks basically the same as this year. Not much to look forward to, and that's not a pretty thought. JMOAA

Trophy
03-25-2009, 05:26 PM
Who would we look to aquire if we were to trade T.J. this summer?

MillerTime
03-25-2009, 10:13 PM
Who would we look to aquire if we were to trade T.J. this summer?

I would love to acquire Ellis. I know it was posted earlier that Ellis isnt a typical PG in JOBs system, but is JOB our long term answer for coach? Probably not!

ChicagoJ
03-26-2009, 09:45 AM
What exactly is a Nellie type PG? Baron Davis played well for him, but doesn't he essentially have Jackson running the offense this year?

Nellie invented the "point forward." He likes to initiate the offense from a player with size/ visibility. Even when he had Sydney Moncreif, the ball was in Paul Pressey's hands a lot.

count55
03-26-2009, 09:58 AM
Nellie invented the "point forward." He likes to initiate the offense from a player with size/ visibility. Even when he had Sydney Moncreif, the ball was in Paul Pressey's hands a lot.

Although that Terrence Williams article the guy posted had some interesting discussion of the origins. Marques Johnson swears that Nellie got the name from him, when, a few years before Pressey came on board, Nellie was trying Marques in that role. However, John Johnson swears that Lennie Wilkens invented it in Seattle. (Typical macho argument, with guys immediately whipping out their Johnsons.)

Anyway, I've always believed that Nellie has dreamed of cloning Paul Pressey and fielding an entire roster of them (him).

ChicagoJ
03-26-2009, 10:00 AM
Although that Terrence Williams article the guy posted had some interesting discussion of the origins. Marques Johnson swears that Nellie got the name from him, when, a few years before Pressey came on board, Nellie was trying Marques in that role. However, John Johnson swears that Lennie Wilkens invented it in Seattle. (Typical macho argument, with guys immediately whipping out their Johnsons.)

Anyway, I've always believed that Nellie has dreamed of cloning Paul Pressey and fielding an entire roster of them (him).

LOL at the Johnsons remark.

Seriously, however, that's why it has always baffled me that the Anthony Mason expiriment wasn't more successful. They should have been perfect for each other.

Naptown_Seth
03-26-2009, 10:40 AM
There is? I think we are splitting hairs with this statement.
Steve Nash has always called his own number quite a bit.

Scoring guards don't really have the passing skill set and/or the vision and/or the offensive awareness to move the ball and find shots for other players.

Pass first guards just don't want to shoot, period.

True PGs do or don't need to score themselves, they don't care either way. What they do is RUN THE OFFENSE and direct the action such that it results in one of the best scoring options you can get on any given trip up the court.

And this means that some pass-first PGs aren't even really good true PGs either. This came up in the debate of Diener vs Nash when people noticed his outrageously strong AST/TO ratio. Diener isn't bad about calling his own number and he is careful with the ball, but he also lacks the ability that a guy like Nash does to truly create offensive opportunities (at that level I mean).

So AST/TO looks great but his total assists and the types of assists remain weaker. He's comfortable passing the ball he's just not great at it (like Nash, Jackson, Magic, Stockton, Paul).

Baron Davis does set up other players and does move the ball (via dribble or pass) to improve the spacing/situation of a play. If you defend the play such that he has an outstanding shot (one he can make) then he'll take it.


There is scoring and there is point guard. They aren't the same thing but they aren't mutually exclusive either.

PS - this is why I'd draft Terrence Williams and let him play "point". He runs his offense and has extremely high vision, awareness and passing ability. Put TJ next to him and let him be the scoring guard. Problem solved. Let the other side worry about cross-matching it.

OakMoses
03-26-2009, 10:47 AM
PS - this is why I'd draft Terrence Williams and let him play "point". He runs his offense and has extremely high vision, awareness and passing ability. Put TJ next to him and let him be the scoring guard. Problem solved. Let the other side worry about cross-matching it.

I'm with you on Williams, but I have one question. Where does he fit in with a PG-SG-SF group of Granger, Rush, & Jack? Can we have Williams, Rush, and Granger on the floor together?