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BillS
03-19-2009, 08:23 AM
As much as I appreciate the energy and willingness to get into the paint that TJ has, I have to admit that he is frustrating me more than he is making me happy. I do not at all like having a PG who essentially makes a decision at the time line and is incapable of changing his action based on the defense. TJ has been an upgrade from what we had last year, but his flaws lead to too many turnovers and missed offensive opportunities.

So, I thought I'd start this thread to talk about potential back court changes for next season. I know that the front court is the priority for most people, and that cap and tax considerations will enter in to decisions on what players to keep and what players to lose. However, since I am not good at watching other teams (except when they play the Pacers) or under-the-radar European or College players, I'm looking for some thoughts on what kind of back court mix is available to us.

Personally, I would not be unhappy if somehow we could put TJ in a trade to help us get some aggressive front court help, going with Jack and (God help me) Diener at the point. I'd love to keep Marquis - though I don't think he is a great point, he is an excellent 2 especially on defense - but I suspect money issues will prevent that.

Is there another point out there who would be about the same level as TJ but without the decision issues? Is there another point out there at about Jack's level that could take the second string spot and leave us Diener for spot minutes and third string?

Jonathan
03-19-2009, 08:49 AM
I like the idea of trading our first round pick and Tinsley to the Timberwolves for Brian Cardinal and their late first round pick and an early second round pick.

idioteque
03-19-2009, 08:51 AM
I think TJ Ford is an incredibly hard PG to trade. He has a lot of injury issues and his decision making skills are somewhat suspect. He's one of those guys that I think few teams will ever take based on his talent, someday we may be able to trade him for something decent but I think that trade will be done as a cap deal for the other team, like the Cro trade to Dallas.

I have stated in other threads that our back court problems are actually more confusing than our front court problems. Should we resign Jack at the risk of hindering Rush's development or is Rush always going to be a sixth man type player? If we resign Jack and trade Ford for something else (like front court help, don't think it could happen but not that point here) is Deiner good enough to be the #2 PG? I don't really know the answers to these questions.

I think there is a 50% chance the Pacers will draft a point guard, and a 50% chance they will draft an enforcer type player like DeJuan Blair. Enforcers are much easier to find than effective PG's in the late lottery, though. I think Hibbert is going to be a very good NBA Center and we already have Danny as a proven commodity. I also think Rush will be a decent scorer and I look for him to find his shot next year. I have always favored having a facilitator PG like Mark Jackson over any score-first type PG. If a player has a rare ability to do both effectively, well that's great too, but I don't expect the Pacers to get that kind of player.

DGPR
03-19-2009, 09:11 AM
I'm thinking a point guard is coming in this draft and we may just say bye bye to Daniels and Jack both.

Jonathan
03-19-2009, 09:39 AM
How do you guys feel about signing free agent to be Rodney Carney? I think he could help our team he has good size 6'7, and is athletic, How is his defense?

ChicagoJ
03-19-2009, 09:51 AM
Our PG position may be more "consistent" than it was last year, but that does not mean we have improved at the position nor have found the long term solution.

I'm close to a Dennis Green, "He is what I thought he is" meltdown on TJ.

I'd keep Jack and start him at PG. I can live with Jack's limitations better than TJ's. But I also would have traded one of our expirings for an additional #1 so we could draft both a PF and PG this summer.

count55
03-19-2009, 09:58 AM
Our PG position may be more "consistent" than it was last year, but that does not mean we have improved at the position nor have found the long term solution.

I'm close to a Dennis Green, "He is what I thought he is" meltdown on TJ.

I'd keep Jack and start him at PG. I can live with Jack's limitations better than TJ's. But I also would have traded one of our expirings for an additional #1 so we could draft both a PF and PG this summer.

No, we've definitely not found a solution, but I'm still fine with the deal we made last year. It helped us a little financially, brought us Hibbert, and Ford, while disappointing, at least is on his way to playing 70+ games.

I would be fine with Jack as the PG while we look for another, but trading one of our expirings was just not financially feasible.

theboyjwo
03-19-2009, 10:11 AM
You guys are funny. :laugh:
I think the weak front court we have is the exact reason you have TJ Ford scoring so much. Our roster consists of 1 big who plays outside, 2 bigs who just rebound, 1 big who sits on the bench, and a rookie big who can't stay out of foul trouble on a consistent basis (though he is playing much better second half of the season.). So I ask you who is going to score the points when at anytime you essentially only have 3 players on the floor who can score regularly. We dont' have a big man that Ford can dump it down to or hand off to on a dribble penetration.

With this line up we will always have a point guard who must look to score. We are a low post threat away from being a great team.
But right now we have 7'0fters who can't make layups. :dance::dance::dance:

ChicagoJ
03-19-2009, 10:28 AM
No, we've definitely not found a solution, but I'm still fine with the deal we made last year. It helped us a little financially, brought us Hibbert, and Ford, while disappointing, at least is on his way to playing 70+ games.

I would be fine with Jack as the PG while we look for another, but trading one of our expirings was just not financially feasible.

I'm fine with the deal as it was, but I would have been dangling Ford at every opportunity - he was and is to be veiwed as a trading piece, not a key member of the roster.

count55
03-19-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm fine with the deal as it was, but I would have been dangling Ford at every opportunity - he was and is to be veiwed as a trading piece, not a key member of the roster.

Makes sense to me. I'm disappointed in Ford, mostly because of a lot of the things you said before the season, but I don't think he's an absolute disaster. He still is putting up decent numbers, so there may be a market.

One of the Portland/Global mods on RealGM had suggested a Ford-for-Blake straight up deal...It seemed to make a lot of fiscal sense to me, without a huge downgrade in skill.

Justin Tyme
03-19-2009, 11:19 AM
Makes sense to me. I'm disappointed in Ford, mostly because of a lot of the things you said before the season, but I don't think he's an absolute disaster. He still is putting up decent numbers, so there may be a market.

One of the Portland/Global mods on RealGM had suggested a Ford-for-Blake straight up deal...It seemed to make a lot of fiscal sense to me, without a huge downgrade in skill.


Sign me up for that deal, but unfortunately the salaries don't match. Blake makes about half of Ford's salary. Blake is a pass 1st type PG, which is what I like, that can hit the 3 to keep the the opposing "D" honest.

count55
03-19-2009, 11:22 AM
Sign me up for that deal, but unfortunately the salaries don't match. Blake makes about half of Ford's salary. Blake is a pass 1st type PG, which is what I like, that can hit the 3 to keep the the opposing "D" honest.

Portland's under the cap this summer...they don't have to take back equal salary.

Naptown_Seth
03-19-2009, 11:32 AM
Trade back into the mid-late first if Terrence Williams falls, make him your big PG ala Jax or Kidd (per my prospect thread rants).

Of course with the tourney T'Will might be playing himself up to the Pacers actual draft slot and if that's the case I would take him there. I wish he'd stay low so they could get a big (Blair, Aminu) and get T'Will (with a trade to get the pick around 20 or so) but his buzz is really high coming out of the Big East tourney.


If you can't move TJ and want to keep Jack it just seems like you are going to have more problems next year. Somehow they moved JO and yet still feel pretty stuck. To think that our worries were TJ's health, not his actual playing style (well, ChicagoJ was worried about style to his credit).

Naptown_Seth
03-19-2009, 11:35 AM
Portland's under the cap this summer...they don't have to take back equal salary.
What about equal talent? ;)

Honestly don't you think they see Blake as a better fit for them than TJ? Isn't his style exactly why Bayless might be seeing so little PT? Why get TJ to play how Bayless already can?

It sucks how stuck we might be. Man, a Ford for T'Will trade would make my year, and it won't happen. :cry:

d_c
03-19-2009, 11:42 AM
How do you guys feel about signing free agent to be Rodney Carney? I think he could help our team he has good size 6'7, and is athletic, How is his defense?

FWIW, Carney is in reality a lot closer to 6'4" than he is 6'7". Another guy with a magically inflated "listed" height.

count55
03-19-2009, 11:43 AM
What about equal talent? ;)

Honestly don't you think they see Blake as a better fit for them than TJ? Isn't his style exactly why Bayless might be seeing so little PT? Why get TJ to play how Bayless already can?

It sucks how stuck we might be. Man, a Ford for T'Will trade would make my year, and it won't happen. :cry:

Hey, it was a Portland fan who floated the idea...

Justin Tyme
03-19-2009, 11:47 AM
You guys are funny. :laugh:
I think the weak front court we have is the exact reason you have TJ Ford scoring so much. Our roster consists of 1 big who plays outside, 2 bigs who just rebound, 1 big who sits on the bench, and a rookie big who can't stay out of foul trouble on a consistent basis (though he is playing much better second half of the season.). So I ask you who is going to score the points when at anytime you essentially only have 3 players on the floor who can score regularly. We dont' have a big man that Ford can dump it down to or hand off to on a dribble penetration.

With this line up we will always have a point guard who must look to score. We are a low post threat away from being a great team.
But right now we have 7'0fters who can't make layups. :dance::dance::dance:


Nice alternate view with some possible validity.

I'm in the camp that Ford is better than what the Pacers have had, but not the solution to the problem at PG. Although if he had a better front court, maybe things would be different. I'm just not sure, but I'm sure finding a new home for him with his contract would be a daunting task.

Infinite MAN_force
03-19-2009, 11:53 AM
It might be most realistic to just roll with what we have next season and than reevaluate. At that point, Murphy, TJ, dunleavy, Tinsley (or whatever we trade for possibly) are all becoming expiring contracts. This gives us a lot more options.

Maybe trade a combo of expirings/picks for your new PG. I see Granger, Rush, Hibbert, Mcroberts, and Jack (backup PG/SG) as our future core right now, maybe consider retaining dunleavy depending on the price(and health). Starting PG that can distribute is my number one concern.

Infinite MAN_force
03-19-2009, 11:58 AM
What about equal talent? ;)

Honestly don't you think they see Blake as a better fit for them than TJ? Isn't his style exactly why Bayless might be seeing so little PT? Why get TJ to play how Bayless already can?

It sucks how stuck we might be. Man, a Ford for T'Will trade would make my year, and it won't happen. :cry:

You really have me interested in this whole T'will idea, my only problem is you are the only person on the entire internet calling the dude a PG.

It is one of those situations where you are either going to look like the smartest guy on earth, or just plain freaking looney tunes if this guy does or doesn't pan out. If one could really snag a Jax/Kidd style big PG with a pick in the 20s, that would be an absolute masterstroke.

PostArtestEra
03-19-2009, 12:21 PM
To all the people hating on T.J. Ford for not being a distributor: the Pacers are currently fifth in the NBA in assists. Our offense simply isn't conducive to one player racking up a ton of assists. The offense is very open and pass heavy, i.e. everyone touches the ball, so both gaurds, forwards, and even big men can get assists. For example, we have a whopping 9 guys on our roster that average at least 1.7 assists per game. The Hornets on the other hand have only 3. So even though Chris Paul averages 11 assists per game, as a team we average more assists than the Hornets. So please cut T.J. some slack, he is a good pg, and much of the criticism of him on this board is unfounded.

Infinite MAN_force
03-19-2009, 12:28 PM
I think it is less about assist numbers and more about him overdribbling and dominating the ball causing the offense to stagnate. This usually results in him putting up a bad shot or getting blocked. He seems to go in with a scorers mentality.

ReginaldWayne
03-19-2009, 12:43 PM
To all the people hating on T.J. Ford for not being a distributor: the Pacers are currently fifth in the NBA in assists. Our offense simply isn't conducive to one player racking up a ton of assists. The offense is very open and pass heavy, i.e. everyone touches the ball, so both gaurds, forwards, and even big men can get assists. For example, we have a whopping 9 guys on our roster that average at least 1.7 assists per game. The Hornets on the other hand have only 3. So even though Chris Paul averages 11 assists per game, as a team we average more assists than the Hornets. So please cut T.J. some slack, he is a good pg, and much of the criticism of him on this board is unfounded.

Its not the stats though that ppl are talking about. If you watch the kid, he over penetrates with the only thought in his head on the way to the basket is "how am I gna get this ball off the backboard to score". He then often times finds a big man in his face, and jumps in the air, and then finally looks to where he can pass the ball, this happen every single game, more then a couple times. He doesnt have good vision, its pretty clear.

I wonder sometimes how he averaged 8 assists per game that one year in toronto bc I didnt really watch the raptors then to much. He would prefer to get the bucket and the 2 points, then set his teammate up for the bucket and the 2 points.

Spirit
03-19-2009, 12:54 PM
Trade back into the mid-late first if Terrence Williams falls, make him your big PG ala Jax or Kidd (per my prospect thread rants).

Of course with the tourney T'Will might be playing himself up to the Pacers actual draft slot and if that's the case I would take him there. I wish he'd stay low so they could get a big (Blair, Aminu) and get T'Will (with a trade to get the pick around 20 or so) but his buzz is really high coming out of the Big East tourney.


If you can't move TJ and want to keep Jack it just seems like you are going to have more problems next year. Somehow they moved JO and yet still feel pretty stuck. To think that our worries were TJ's health, not his actual playing style (well, ChicagoJ was worried about style to his credit).What? Terrence Williams is a SG/SF not a point guard. Every draft site along with ESPN says this.

Justin Tyme
03-19-2009, 01:06 PM
I'd like Ramon Sessions(FA) as the Pacers starting PG, but that just isn't going to happen. The thing with drafting a PG is just how much would JO'B willing to give him playing time to develop?

Sessions a 07 2nd round pick and Chalmers a 08 2nd round pick are examples of finding a PG late in the draft, but again would JO'B take the time to develop a rookie PG. My guess is not really. My impression of O'Brien is he wants an established PG starting and an established PG as a b/u PG.

If he's got 2 rookies, let's say a PF & PG, next season just how much is he going to truly play them with having to play Hibbert & Rush? Will he give them even as much PT as he did Hibbert and Rush while playing Hibbert & Rush?

Then on the other hand with the Pacers losing numerous FA this summer and Dun's injury, O'Brien may not have much else to play. I just don't feel the Pacers will have the quality of players, the experience, nor the depth next year. IOW, another 08-09 season if that good. JMOAA

Justin Tyme
03-19-2009, 01:15 PM
I think it is less about assist numbers and more about him overdribbling and dominating the ball causing the offense to stagnate. This usually results in him putting up a bad shot or getting blocked. He seems to go in with a scorers mentality.


Absolutely. We had and still have one of those still on the roster. It's not what is needed.

Jonathan
03-19-2009, 01:46 PM
FWIW, Carney is in reality a lot closer to 6'4" than he is 6'7". Another guy with a magically inflated "listed" height.

I saw him live with the lost to Minnesota. He looked to be a legit bench player. Do you think we can get him at a home town discount?

pwee31
03-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Sign me up for that deal, but unfortunately the salaries don't match. Blake makes about half of Ford's salary. Blake is a pass 1st type PG, which is what I like, that can hit the 3 to keep the the opposing "D" honest.

Maybe Portland would throw in the seldom used Channing Frye

I'm all for trading Ford. good guy, plays hard, but not the PG we need. I was all for a Ford/Felton deal

GrangerRanger
03-19-2009, 02:05 PM
As much as I hate to say this, I think our future would look more bright with Bayless.

Unclebuck
03-19-2009, 02:47 PM
I must say I am very surprised by all the negativity directed at TJ Ford. He is what he is. A scoring small point guard. he's actually a better defender than I thought - sure he gets outsized, but he isn't bad at keeping his guy in front of him. I'm satisfied with TJ and Jack at the point with Travis as the third point.


Blake? Sure he plays the point guard position, a good defender and a good shooter, but he is not a creator at all. He needs to play alongside a playmaker such as he has for most of his career, Roy, Iverson....... We don't have a playmaker

ReginaldWayne
03-19-2009, 03:10 PM
Trade back into the mid-late first if Terrence Williams falls, make him your big PG ala Jax or Kidd (per my prospect thread rants).

Of course with the tourney T'Will might be playing himself up to the Pacers actual draft slot and if that's the case I would take him there. I wish he'd stay low so they could get a big (Blair, Aminu) and get T'Will (with a trade to get the pick around 20 or so) but his buzz is really high coming out of the Big East tourney.


If you can't move TJ and want to keep Jack it just seems like you are going to have more problems next year. Somehow they moved JO and yet still feel pretty stuck. To think that our worries were TJ's health, not his actual playing style (well, ChicagoJ was worried about style to his credit).


Im aaaaalll for drafting T Will also. I would love to see him in a Pacer uni next season. I agree he certainly has the handles and the vision to play PG in the nba, but he may be better suited playing the 2. I dont know if he is as good a defender as B Rush, but at the 1 2 3 with T Will, Rush, and Granger, that is extremely solid and I would love to see that.

He seems to have things a lot of players can not be taught. A glue guy and a guy with a lot of intangibles who knows the game. You mentioned his recent 3 point %'s in the draft thread as being pretty respectable in recent months. With all the things he is currently capable of, if he ever becomes a consistent outside shooter, he could be extremely dangerous. And if he already had that ability, I think he would be a easy top 10 pick. He does a lot of things really good, not a lot really really great, but nothing poorly.

If we could trade for an additional mid 1st round pick on top of our probable lottery pick, we CAN'T let him slip out of our fingers. I have a feeling though, he is going to impress every one in the pre draft workouts and his stock is gna sky rocket, maybe forcing us to take him if we land around a top 10 pick. But Im all for it, he can play 3 positions and defend the same 3 positions.

Jonathan
03-19-2009, 03:14 PM
Rashad Mc Cants scored 30 the other day and is a free agent do we take a look at him? I read on my fantasy yahoo that he is not the best guy in the lockeroom.

Will one you gentleman please post a list of the free agent Guards for the summer of 2009?

duke dynamite
03-19-2009, 03:27 PM
Will one you gentleman please post a list of the free agent Guards for the summer of 2009?

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/2009-free-agent-list/


Unrestricted:

Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson, Ben Gordon, Mike Bibby, Stephon Marbury, Ronnie Price, CJ Watson, Brevin Knight, Kevin Ollie, Flip Murray, Anthony Carter, Bobby Jackson, Jason Hart, Damon Jones, Tyronne Lue, Juan Dixon, Quincy Douby, Lindsey Hunter, Jacque Vaughn, Mike Wilks, Steve Francis, Sam Cassell

Restricted:

Ramon Sessions, Raymond Felton, Nate Robinson, Jarrett Jack, Will Solomon, Luther Head, Juan Carlos Navarro

PO:

Jamal Crawford, Eddie House, Royal Ivey, Anthony Johnson, Bobby Brown, Travis Diener, Mike James, Chris Quinn

count55
03-19-2009, 03:32 PM
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/2009-free-agent-list/


Unrestricted:

Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson, Ben Gordon, Mike Bibby, Stephon Marbury, Ronnie Price, CJ Watson, Brevin Knight, Kevin Ollie, Flip Murray, Anthony Carter, Bobby Jackson, Jason Hart, Damon Jones, Tyronne Lue, Juan Dixon, Quincy Douby, Lindsey Hunter, Jacque Vaughn, Mike Wilks, Steve Francis, Sam Cassell

Restricted:

Ramon Sessions, Raymond Felton, Nate Robinson, Jarrett Jack, Will Solomon, Luther Head, Juan Carlos Navarro

PO

Jamal Crawford, Eddie House, Royal Ivey, Anthony Johnson, Bobby Brown, Travis Diener, Mike James, Chris Quinn


Coincidentally, that's almost identical to the list of FA guards that we can't afford, as well.

duke dynamite
03-19-2009, 03:34 PM
Coincidentally, that's almost identical to the list of FA guards that we can't afford, as well.
It happens.

BillS
03-19-2009, 03:40 PM
I must say I am very surprised by all the negativity directed at TJ Ford. He is what he is. A scoring small point guard.

We knew that going in, I just don't think he's as good at the scoring part as we'd hoped.

Specifically, I think when his decisions are good, the team does well, but when his decisions are bad he hampers the rest of the offense. While this isn't rocket science in terms of a point guard, the problem is that he makes those decisions very early in a possession and is not capable of changing the decision as the defense flows.

It is similar in some ways to the tendency of opponents to send 3 guys to climb all over JO, knowing he would not be able to get the ball to anyone effective on the perimeter. In this case, defenders just have to wait to figure out what TJ is going to do and then go stop it by being where he didn't expect. He isn't able to change up what he is already doing (I'd be inclined to say he doesn't see that the situation has changed until too late).

For a slashing point guard he gets trapped in the paint and/or fails to finish far too many times for consistency's sake. I'd rather have a PG who makes all his open layups and breaks instead of one who misses a bunch of them but occasionally makes the "throw the ball straight up and let it come down into the basket" wild shots.

Again, it's better than last year in that we know what we've got every game, but it isn't optimal.

CableKC
03-19-2009, 03:53 PM
Anyone else think ( or at least concerned ) that TPTB may try to draft Stephen Curry as Jack's replacement ( assuming that we don't resign him ) to fill the backcourt?

Looking at FA next season.....the only real PGs that stand out is Jack and Sessions. The truth is that there is a strong liklihood that Ford will be one of the key PGs in our rotation for another season. As to whether Jack is still here is entirely dependent on how much he wants and how much TPTB will pay for him in these tight financial times for the Pacers.

Assuming that we end up keeping Ford, who is the best option ( via FA, trade or draft ) to improve our PG situation?

Honestly, if are able to get some solid defensive minded SGs, I wouldn't mind having Diener as our backup PG.

count55
03-19-2009, 04:02 PM
Anyone else think ( or at least concerned ) that TPTB may try to draft Stephen Curry as Jack's replacement ( assuming that we don't resign him ) to fill the backcourt?

To be honest, I won't be either concerned or hopeful about anyone until I know exactly where we're picking, and the early entry guys confirm one way or the other.

OakMoses
03-19-2009, 04:15 PM
Count's been trying to say this in a number of ways, but I think we need to be a little more blunt about it:

No help is coming our way in free agency.

We've got to look at trades and the draft as our means to improve. It's either that or we wait until Dun and Murphy come off the books and we've got some real cash to spend.

count55
03-19-2009, 04:23 PM
Count's been trying to say this in a number of ways, but I think we need to be a little more blunt about it:

No help is coming our way in free agency.

We've got to look at trades and the draft as our means to improve. It's either that or we wait until Dun and Murphy come off the books and we've got some real cash to spend.

I would say the best case scenario in free agency would be to pick up a Travis Diener-level player. Somebody really cheap that can give you some solid minutes in the right role.

We aren't going to fill any holes, because we simply don't have the money. Any significant signing (possibly including Jack) would put us close to the tax this coming season, and probably over the tax the following year.

Well, it's so unlikely as to be almost non-existent.

count55
03-19-2009, 04:26 PM
I would say the best case scenario in free agency would be to pick up a Travis Diener-level player. Somebody really cheap that can give you some solid minutes in the right role.

We aren't going to fill any holes, because we simply don't have the money. Any significant signing (possibly including Jack) would put us close to the tax this coming season, and probably over the tax the following year.

Well, it's so unlikely as to be almost non-existent.

BTW...another consideration: if we end up with a Top 3 pick, then it also gets harder just to re-sign Jack...perhaps even precluding the possibility.

d_c
03-19-2009, 04:30 PM
Rashad Mc Cants scored 30 the other day and is a free agent do we take a look at him? I read on my fantasy yahoo that he is not the best guy in the lockeroom.

McCants is the type of guy who everyone on this board would want to toss over a bridge after a few weeks of watching him play.

count55
03-19-2009, 04:33 PM
McCants is the type of guy who everyone on this board would want to toss over a bridge after a few weeks of watching him play.

There seem to be a lot of those.

d_c
03-19-2009, 04:34 PM
I saw him live with the lost to Minnesota. He looked to be a legit bench player. Do you think we can get him at a home town discount?

I'm not sure if Carney's 4th year option was picked up last summer. If it wasn't, then I'm sure he can be signed for cheap this summer.

count55
03-19-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm not sure if Carney's 4th year option was picked up last summer. If it wasn't, then I'm sure he can be signed for cheap this summer.

He is a free agent this summer.

ChicagoJ
03-19-2009, 04:43 PM
McCants is the type of guy who everyone on this board would want to toss over a bridge after a few weeks of watching him play.

Perhaps true. But I might consider that an upgrade over the guy I wanted to toss over a bridge before wasting a few weeks watching him play.

:devil:

PostArtestEra
03-19-2009, 06:22 PM
Its not the stats though that ppl are talking about. If you watch the kid, he over penetrates with the only thought in his head on the way to the basket is "how am I gna get this ball off the backboard to score". He then often times finds a big man in his face, and jumps in the air, and then finally looks to where he can pass the ball, this happen every single game, more then a couple times. He doesnt have good vision, its pretty clear.

I wonder sometimes how he averaged 8 assists per game that one year in toronto bc I didnt really watch the raptors then to much. He would prefer to get the bucket and the 2 points, then set his teammate up for the bucket and the 2 points.

Again, I would say this is a result of the system in which he is playing, not his vision. You're right about him getting to the hoop only to try to kick it out to no one in particular, but this is a result of the play that is being run. These plays you are referring to are basically drawn up as T.J. drive to the hoop. Our offense isn't structured well, and you are blaming the point guard. It reminds me of people who blame the quarterback when the coach calls a screen pass on third and a mile. I guarantee you that if T.J. was playing for the Jazz you would have a different opinion of his vision. You even pointed out that he averaged 8 assists per game in Toronto. He did so because that team ran a much more structured offense than we currently do. I just want to say right now that if T.J. gets traded to a competitive team all of you will miss him dearly.

BRushWithDeath
03-19-2009, 06:28 PM
Nobody likes McCants or his game as much as McCants.

Kemo
03-19-2009, 08:47 PM
but he isn't bad at keeping his guy in front of him. I'm satisfied with TJ and Jack at the point with Travis as the third point.



Are you seriously paying attention to TJ on the court on the defensive end?
Because I don't think we are seeing the same TJ .. lolz

It seems like 7 times out of 10 he is hovering in the paint around the basket ,NOT on his man ... and then miraculously his man get's a WIDE OPEN shot (seemingly making it 95% of the time lol), as TJ sprints from the middle of the floor to his man in the corner ....all in vain ..

Case in point ... the Blazers game last night ...

I seen this happen on at LEAST 6 different possessions before I said the heck with it , and stopped counting ..

Steve Blake was making open shots left and right whenever TJ was on the floor , supposedly guarding him ..


It is an absolute disaster 85% to 90% of the time when BOTH TJ and Jack are on the floor together ..

I'd MUCH rather see Jack/Diener on the floor .. or running our pg position ..

TJ's game is akin to Iverson's BUT with Iverson , he isn't gonna get caught trying to drive the lane like he's a foot taller without having some form of an outlet pass in mind , or he draws the foul, gets to the line.... TJ get's caught way too many times either in the middle with nowhere to go , or in the air trying to make a pass cause he is stuck , and it leads to a turnover due to coming back down with the ball, or being blocked or stripped of the ball...

I don't understand why some of you don't see Diener being as good/important as I think he is /can be for this team ..

He rarely turns the ball over .. his floor vision is very good, he FASCILITATES, making the whole team run better as a cohesive unit ..

Sure , he doesn't try to score a whole lot .. but I don't think he looks to unless it is required of him .. He is definitely capable . Yes he is a bit streaky , but he is one of those shooters, that once he gets making his 3's there is no stopping him .. sure after making 4 or 5 3's in a row , he may go cold for 2 or 3 shots, but if he is on that night he may make 3 or 4 more in a row .. That's how alot of shooters are .. But he is never on the floor long enough usually to be any kind of offensive threat , unless he starts off on fire..

I personally would rather have a smart pass first pure pg like Diener run our team , than a scoring pg in the mold of Tinsley as far as their game..


In alot of ways TJ reminds me ALOT like the mediocre Tinsley, especially in how he tried to take over games,the bonehead turnovers/plays .. and just generally making the fan just wanna ring his neck .. lol
But also when TJ is playing good, doing all the right things , you love him .. It's just right now the bad things are happening alot more consistantly than the good things..lol
I am not sure , as someone else said, if the offensive system in place, is why TJ isn't responding well, or what exactly... But something's gotta give by the middle of next season.. at latest.
Hopefully he comes around, cause I DO like the guy ..


Except Tinsley , when he was playing good , was one hell of a passer,was good at stealing the ball.. and was twice the player TJ is right now ..


I would LOVE for TJ to elevate different aspects of his game and be the pg we need to be a contender . But I honestly don't know yet .. I'd definitely give him next season to prove himself to be that guy .. But I think if the right deal comes along , it would definitely be a consideration..

As far as the draft .. I really hope for only 2 things ..

1. That Ricky Rubio declares for this years draft ..

and

2. That we get a lottery pick either 1 or 2 ..

and I would pick Rubio , without ANY hesitation.. no matter what pick we had , 1 or if 2 would pray to the Basketball gods that the #1 would pick Griffin if Rubio is on the board .. lol

I truly believe Ricky Rubio is gonna be the next rookie to become one of the best in the game, by the time he get's in the league for a few years..

Heck I believe he is good enough RIGHT now to come right in his rookie year and be a better pg. than Derrick Rose right off the bat ..

All I gotta say is, whoever gets Rubio , is gonna have their franchise player , for many years..
He is THAT good ... and will only get better . I mean heck the kid is 18 yrs old, and has been playing pro ball since he was 15 !!

Here are a list his accomplishments ... SO FAR !!


Pro career

* Won 3 Catalan National Leagues (2005, 2007, 2008)
* Won the FIBA EuroCup Championship (2006)
* Led the Spanish ACB League in steals (2007)
* Won the Spanish ACB League Rising Star Award (2007)
* 2 times FIBA Europe Young Player of the Year (2007, 2008)
* Won the Spanish King's Cup (2008)
* Won the ULEB Cup Championship (2008)
* All-Spanish ACB League Team (2008)
* Voted the Spanish ACB League's Best Point Guard (2008)
* Mr. Europa Award (2008)

Spanish national team

* Won the gold medal at the FIBA Europe Under-16 Championship (2006)
* FIBA Europe Under-16 Championship MVP (2006)
* Won the silver medal at the 2008 Olympic Basketball Tournament



This kid is the REAL DEAL ..

I hope the Pacers front office are smart enough , that IF we got a top 2 lottery pick , that they would pick him no matter who else is on the board..

ChicagoJ
03-19-2009, 09:33 PM
TJ can only hope to be the mediocre Tinsley. He's still waaayyyyyy too close to Travis to insult the mediocre Tinsley with a comparison like that.

There, I said it. Get over it.

Bball
03-19-2009, 09:47 PM
I know conventional wisdom is that we wave buh bye to our expirings and do as little as possible this off season due to finances. But OTOH, is that really the answer to selling more tickets?

Would we be better to try and weave some deal or deals and keep the fans energized as well as try and improve the product on the court? What is the balance between doing nothing (much) or taking a (financial) risk in hopes that the better basketball will pay dividends at the gate?

Have we finally reached the treading water point and just trying to survive as a franchise?

-Bball

dryley
03-19-2009, 11:09 PM
I usually like TJ for 3.5 quarters. In the last half of the 4th he seems to forget there are four others out there with him. Sometimes it starts sooner, but it is pretty consistent at the end of games. Granted, he's saved a game here and there, but I think other teams know that when he gets the ball at the end, you don't have to guard any one else.

Unclebuck
03-20-2009, 08:48 AM
TJ can only hope to be the mediocre Tinsley. He's still waaayyyyyy too close to Travis to insult the mediocre Tinsley with a comparison like that.

There, I said it. Get over it.

I was always a huge fan of Travis Best, so I take that as high praise.

BillS
03-20-2009, 11:33 AM
I was always a huge fan of Travis Best, so I take that as high praise.

:shudder:

:onozomg:

Unclebuck
03-20-2009, 12:37 PM
:shudder:

:onozomg:

Bill - I was never on any Pacers forum until after the 2000 seasons when for some reason I thought I would just check out the Indystar forum and I was shocked that many didn't like Best - I honestly had no idea. Still don't understand it to this day really though

rexnom
03-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Bill - I was never on any Pacers forum until after the 2000 seasons when for some reason I thought I would just check out the Indystar forum and I was shocked that many didn't like Best - I honestly had no idea. Still don't understand it to this day really though
I had several perceptions about the late '90s Pacers along the same lines that I was shocked were completely different than the message board perceptions.

Three stand out to me (which I disagreed heavily with):
1.) The Pacers were an excellent defensive team
2.) Rose/Best were terrible players (in some form or another)
3.) Dale Davis was Jesus (don't kill me, Peck)

BillS
03-20-2009, 01:58 PM
UB, you and I normally agree on point guards, but we clearly disagree on Travis Best.

If I saw one more possession that essentially consisted of dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble pass to someone without enough time to shoot I think I'd have bashed my brains out against a wall.

There was a lot of discussion over whether Travis did that because no one moved without the ball, or whether no one moved without the ball because they knew he wouldn't pass it. I was a proponent of the latter view.

No, he wasn't completely inept and he had a fairly consistent outside shot. But a point guard needs to distribute the ball, and Travis seemed to only be good at distributing the ball between himself and the floor.

Unclebuck
03-20-2009, 02:11 PM
UB, you and I normally agree on point guards, but we clearly disagree on Travis Best.

If I saw one more possession that essentially consisted of dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble pass to someone without enough time to shoot I think I'd have bashed my brains out against a wall.

There was a lot of discussion over whether Travis did that because no one moved without the ball, or whether no one moved without the ball because they knew he wouldn't pass it. I was a proponent of the latter view.

No, he wasn't completely inept and he had a fairly consistent outside shot. But a point guard needs to distribute the ball, and Travis seemed to only be good at distributing the ball between himself and the floor.

Not to get off on this tangent - but the main reason why I liked Travis was his excellent defense. He was also a pretty good clutch shooter, and was murder in the pick and roll (murder on the opponent) ask Phil Jackson what he thought of Travis - the Bulls had all kinds of trouble with him in the ECF in 1998 and Travis was a nbig reason why the pacers were able to force a game 7.

Travis held onto the ball because that is what he was supposed to do most of the time. He was either running pick and rolls or waiting for Reggie to come off a series of baseline screens - and for those thing you had to wait.

Really though, I'll just say this - there must have been something good about him because he played more minutes than Mark Jackson did in the 4th quarter especially during the 2000 season - Travis finished most of the games.


If you bought the Pacers box set DVD's from a couple of seasons ago, watch the deciding game 6 in NY and tell me Travis wasn't extremely impressive.

Naptown_Seth
03-20-2009, 02:45 PM
TJ can only hope to be the mediocre Tinsley. He's still waaayyyyyy too close to Travis to insult the mediocre Tinsley with a comparison like that.

There, I said it. Get over it.
Took you long enough.

BillS
03-20-2009, 03:49 PM
Travis held onto the ball because that is what he was supposed to do most of the time. He was either running pick and rolls or waiting for Reggie to come off a series of baseline screens - and for those thing you had to wait.

I don't have access to video of all the things that were going on all those many years ago, I'll just say that the offense essentially stopped moving when Travis came into the game. He had major trouble seeing anything on the court that wasn't wide open, and it was important to hit Reggie in motion when he had as little as a half a step on his man. The plays all had to start with Travis moving into position to where he could see someone else.


Really though, I'll just say this - there must have been something good about him because he played more minutes than Mark Jackson did in the 4th quarter especially during the 2000 season - Travis finished most of the games.

Defense, which I will agree he was much stronger on than Jax, and quickness, as Jax was on the downside of his physical abilities.

I won't argue that TBest could hit some clutch shots, but to an extent that was because he was always willing to take them, and he missed more than a few as well.

I always wished you could transplant Mark Jackson's brain into Travis Best's body - that would give the perfect FrankenPointGuard.

ChicagoJ
03-20-2009, 07:39 PM
Nah.... Travis was a 5'11" SG. Great jumper. Good on the ball defense (but not so good defending away from the ball). No court vision at all. Average ballhanding and below average passing. Its too bad he wasn't 6'6", he'd have one helluva NBA career.

But as a PG?


If I saw one more possession that essentially consisted of dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble pass to someone without enough time to shoot I think I'd have bashed my brains out against a wall.


Perfect, my friend. That's just perfect.