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View Full Version : Post-Game Thread: Raptors 3/15/09



BRushWithDeath
03-15-2009, 02:05 PM
Pacers played like they were hungover from the night before.

JOB coached like he was drunk from the morning.

Terrible performance from all parties involved.

Hoop
03-15-2009, 02:10 PM
Lotto! Small Ball! Lotto! Small Ball! :censored:

JB24
03-15-2009, 02:13 PM
If only we had a Pops Mensah Bonsu...

Oh wait, we might. You know, the dude that was inactive for today's game. Inexplicably behind Maceo Baston in the rotation. The guy that's only gotten around 5 minutes in playing time over the last month...

xtacy
03-15-2009, 02:18 PM
i'm glad i didn't find a link to watch this game. seeing mensah-bonsu score 21 is the last thing i can stand right now.

deekay85
03-15-2009, 02:22 PM
it was incredible. i dont know what to think.
embarassing loss.
goodbye playoffs.
bucks lead against celtics!!!

PacersRule
03-15-2009, 02:29 PM
Ugly. Just plain ugly. I was going out to play tennis this afternoon, but the game just crushed my mood...

idioteque
03-15-2009, 02:43 PM
Mensah Bonsu went to my college, which has never had a very good NBA player come out of it, so I'm happy for him. He's been playing well for Toronto and could carve out a place for himself in the league. And, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I have said before and said again and again that the Pacers should look at this guy when he was playing in Europe, but now it is possible someone will sign him to a better contract than we could offer this summer.

He is a milkdrinker at heart, great, intellectual guy, but he's a badass on the court. How could this be more perfect for the Pacers?

As for the Pacers, they need someone with half of Mensah Bonsu's heart in the frontcourt if they ever want to succeed.

http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/teams/raptors/rweb-090315-pops.asx

Look at some of these plays he made. Is our interior defense sleeping or what?

deekay85
03-15-2009, 02:47 PM
As for the Pacers, they need someone with half of Mensah Bonsu's heart in the frontcourt if they ever want to succeed.

great said!

clownskull
03-15-2009, 02:57 PM
i'm sure others have said it in other threads but- this team is not going to the playoffs. i know the simons would like the extra rev. but it just ain't happening. we will have to settle for a mid pick again.

BRushWithDeath
03-15-2009, 02:57 PM
If only we had a Pops Mensah Bonsu...

Oh wait, we might. You know, the dude that was inactive for today's game. Inexplicably behind Maceo Baston in the rotation. The guy that's only gotten around 5 minutes in playing time over the last month...

It's a shame.

Dr. Hibbert
03-15-2009, 04:51 PM
I guess I don't understand the Danny Granger situation...

Either he's too hurt to be effective, in which case there are only a few games left, so why not shut him down for the year? This seems to be the most likely case.

Or he's just gone completely soft on defense this year. Marion absolutely owned him on that dunk, and Granger didn't give much of an effort today. If that's due to ineffectiveness coming off/playing injured - which I think it is - then he should be sitting out the rest of the year. If not, well, there are bigger problems, aren't there?

I think it's just dumb to be playing Granger at this point.

ReginaldWayne
03-15-2009, 04:56 PM
You couldnt have expected him to go up and challenge that dunk. He stepped in, tried to take the charge, but msot guys would have just let him dunk it, which he shoulda done. He wouldnt have the hops to go up and block that shot like he would have when that ankle strengthens.

Dr. Hibbert
03-15-2009, 04:57 PM
You couldnt have expected him to go up and challenge that dunk. He stepped in, tried to take the charge, but msot guys would have just let him dunk it, which he shoulda done. He wouldnt have the hops to go up and block that shot like he would have when that ankle strengthens.

Okay so like I said, he's injured. You're just saying what I'm saying, in which case we should both be asking - why the HELL is he out there? There is nothing left to play for. Nothing. No sense aggravating the injury any worse now, is there?

It is absolutely stupid to be playing Granger right now. He's just going to look awful - being rusty and hurt - over the last few games anyway. They're setting him up for failure.

Hicks
03-15-2009, 08:35 PM
The guy's just come back from not playing for weeks. It's not shocking he wasn't playing his usual high level. That said, even if he was, I think most know his defense has to get better at any rate.

Anthem
03-15-2009, 09:17 PM
Danny wants to come back because there's still hope for a playoff push.

Not much, after today, but it's still within the realm of possibility.

NuffSaid
03-15-2009, 10:08 PM
i'm glad i didn't find a link to watch this game. seeing mensah-bonsu score 21 is the last thing i can stand right now.
That's been one of the growing trends with this team...let an unknown or role player have a breakout game against who? The Pacers. And if that wasn't bad enough how about, "team ends losing skid as they win against the Pacers"! Or how about "-.500 team finds way to win against...you guessed it, the Pacers."

It's pathetic when one or two of the above happens.

It's worse when all three happens at the same time. :(

idioteque
03-15-2009, 10:52 PM
That's been one of the growing trends with this team...let an unknown or role player have a breakout game against who? The Pacers. And if that wasn't bad enough how about, "team ends losing skid as they win against the Pacers"! Or how about "-.500 team finds way to win against...you guessed it, the Pacers."

It's pathetic when one or two of the above happens.

It's worse when all three happens at the same time. :(

As someone who follows Mensah Bonsu, this is something I saw coming. The guy is incredibly physical and makes most of his plays because he's meaner and stronger and more intense than anyone else. The Pacers have just about the softest frontcourt in the NBA especially at the PF and C positions. I love Hibbert but he's somewhat of a softie like Smits was and does not have that enforcer type mentality at all. This was the perfect storm.

That being said, Pops would have been a nice complement for Hibbert in the frontcourt and maybe would have lit a fire under his arse in practice. Too late for that now.

BRushWithDeath
03-15-2009, 11:23 PM
As someone who follows Mensah Bonsu, this is something I saw coming. The guy is incredibly physical and makes most of his plays because he's meaner and stronger and more intense than anyone else. The Pacers have just about the softest frontcourt in the NBA especially at the PF and C positions. I love Hibbert but he's somewhat of a softie like Smits was and does not have that enforcer type mentality at all. This was the perfect storm.

That being said, Pops would have been a nice complement for Hibbert in the frontcourt and maybe would have lit a fire under his arse in practice. Too late for that now.

Didn't that guy behind our bench pretty much dominate Pops and GW in the tourney a few years ago?

rexnom
03-16-2009, 01:19 AM
"They basically punched us in the face,'' Indiana's Jeff Foster said. "It's embarrassing. We got beat in every phase of the game.''

Good summary by Jeff.

Dr. Hibbert
03-16-2009, 07:20 AM
Danny wants to come back because there's still hope for a playoff push.

Not much, after today, but it's still within the realm of possibility.

Well of course he wants to come back. I would hope most NBA players want to play, if they think they are able to (though we've seen our share milk their injuries, that's for sure.)

But that's where management has to step in and say...you know, we don't have a prayer of making the playoffs. Maybe it's best to sit the guy and let him have that much longer to heal up, so that he can really work hard this offseason and push himself to be an even better player. Who knows, maybe we'll have a playoff team next year, and if we do, Granger has to lead that team.

Most rational people should have stopped thinking playoffs a long time ago. Anyone still thinking playoffs is clearly delusional. Playing Danny - and setting him up for failure in the process - makes zero sense. He can't contribute much right now, and it doesn't matter because the team isn't going anywhere anyway.

BKK
03-16-2009, 07:37 AM
i'm one of those for whom it took time but after the 2 ugly losses we just had, I ve accepted the fact that we won't make the playoffs

of course I know they're going to fight till death and probably have a bunch of surprise wins but from now on I don't think it will be enough to bring back hope :(

Speed
03-16-2009, 07:45 AM
Well we are at the point that I've pointed to all season, the last 14 games.

I have said all along that they can go 10-4 this last stretch.

However, with the enormous egg laying yesterday and really 2 1/2 games is a ton with so many teams between you in the 8th seed. I'm pretty sure they are done and will probably play accordingly instead of make a final push. We'll see.

Otherwise, sitting Hibbert and playing small really worked out.

Free Roy.

idioteque
03-16-2009, 08:25 AM
Didn't that guy behind our bench pretty much dominate Pops and GW in the tourney a few years ago?

I don't know if I would say "dominate" but he did outplay him. It is worth noting though that Pops played a good portion of his senior season (including the NCAA tournament) on a bum knee.

Because Pops relies so much on athleticism, he needs to be near 100% healthy all the time to be effective, especially on this level.

Unclebuck
03-16-2009, 09:24 AM
I only was able to watch the third quarter and it was pretty ugly. Just a horrible game all around. Not sure there is anything else to say

nerveghost
03-16-2009, 09:58 AM
There is one thing to say -

May Karma smile on us in the lottery.

http://www.channel4.com/assets/programmes/images/my-name-is-earl/earl-hickey/my-name-is-earl-earl-hickey_412x232.jpg

OakMoses
03-16-2009, 03:57 PM
The real point to make about this game is that our frontcourt got dominated, and it wasn't even Chris Bosh doing the dominating. This loss falls squarely on the shoulders of Murphy, Foster, Granger, and O'Brien (for playing Granger at the 4). If anyone watched this game and doesn't think that we need serious additions in the frontcourt, I'd love to hear an explanation.

Other than the awful rebounding when he was playing the 4, I didn't think Danny had a bad game. He tried to fit in without taking over and for the most part the other guys didn't just sit and watch him.

Peck
03-16-2009, 04:15 PM
Ok, sadly I was gone over the past two games and missed both the Atlanta and Toronto game.

However just from readin this am I to assume that my thoughts about O'Briens being a better coach due to injury's may have been correct?

In other words I see that Roy did not start vs. Toronto so we went back to the (matchup) coaching that he wasn't able to do when Jeff was injured.

My guess is that we had plenty of Murphy and Granger on the floor at the same time playing the 4 & 5 spots as well.

If I am wrong about this please let me know. But like I said in my post I wanted to temper any praise for him with the fact that I thought that he was being forced to play this style due to player injury.

That begin said, I didn't see the games. Am I wrong about my assumptions here?

MyFavMartin
03-16-2009, 08:05 PM
The real point to make about this game is that our frontcourt got dominated, and it wasn't even Chris Bosh doing the dominating. This loss falls squarely on the shoulders of Murphy, Foster, Granger, and O'Brien (for playing Granger at the 4). If anyone watched this game and doesn't think that we need serious additions in the frontcourt, I'd love to hear an explanation.


We've got this guy who was on the bench til we were 23 points down whose 7'2" and been a pretty good rookie...

special ed
03-16-2009, 08:23 PM
We've got this guy who was on the bench til we were 23 points down whose 7'2" and been a pretty good rookie...Right on. I've said it all year and it's too obvious now: OB has no clue on how to build a rookie's confidence. Once Granger went down, he had no choice but to go with Rush, who'd been coming around but has been beaten down all season by his coach. Now that Granger's on the verge of returning full time, look for more of OB's nonsensical rotations of Granger at the 4 with Murph bouncing three pointers off the rim while playing the 5.
If these guys are to make a run next season with youth, TPTB have got to know that OB is not the coach to take them on that run.

BlueNGold
03-16-2009, 09:33 PM
I don't think the Pacers should be playing Granger the rest of the season. For one, he provides JOb more options to choose from which will lead to more losses. The flip side of that is, it should lead to a higher draft pick.

......but risking anything with Granger for the balance of this season is just wrong. Maybe not as wrong as AIG executives stealing 165M from you and I after we just gave the company billions....but it's still wrong. I would prefer that the Pacers protect "our" investment (Granger) while they have cup-in-hand asking for a bail-out.

Anyway, are there not enough signs that the Pacers should stick a fork in the season? With Dunleavy injured and Granger at 50%, how likely is it that the Pacers will pass 5 other teams and make the playoffs? I guess anything's possible.

Hoop
03-16-2009, 11:21 PM
Ok, sadly I was gone over the past two games and missed both the Atlanta and Toronto game.

However just from readin this am I to assume that my thoughts about O'Briens being a better coach due to injury's may have been correct?

In other words I see that Roy did not start vs. Toronto so we went back to the (matchup) coaching that he wasn't able to do when Jeff was injured.

My guess is that we had plenty of Murphy and Granger on the floor at the same time playing the 4 & 5 spots as well.

If I am wrong about this please let me know. But like I said in my post I wanted to temper any praise for him with the fact that I thought that he was being forced to play this style due to player injury.

That begin said, I didn't see the games. Am I wrong about my assumptions here?
IMO, you hit the nail right on the head, about JOB being practically forced into being a better coach due to injuries.

I'm now sorry we ever had that good stretch of play the last few weeks. It only insured that JOB will be back next season. The sooner he's gone and we have a real system the better.

Midcoasted
03-17-2009, 12:15 AM
Ok, sadly I was gone over the past two games and missed both the Atlanta and Toronto game.

However just from readin this am I to assume that my thoughts about O'Briens being a better coach due to injury's may have been correct?

In other words I see that Roy did not start vs. Toronto so we went back to the (matchup) coaching that he wasn't able to do when Jeff was injured.

My guess is that we had plenty of Murphy and Granger on the floor at the same time playing the 4 & 5 spots as well.

If I am wrong about this please let me know. But like I said in my post I wanted to temper any praise for him with the fact that I thought that he was being forced to play this style due to player injury.

That begin said, I didn't see the games. Am I wrong about my assumptions here?


Hibbert dominated Atlanta in the 1st half. I didnt see the Toronto game. As bad as the Atlanta game was in the second half I thought it was a fluke. Toronto demolished us and it has me scared the season really may be lost.

Only 2.5 games out though. If we finish stronger than .500 these last games theres a good chance we make it though. Man how I wish we could just hit a 10 game win streak right about now. That would be ****in awesome.

Peck
03-17-2009, 02:06 AM
Ok I have now gone back and read the stars report on the game.

Roy came in after the team was down by 23 points in the 4th quarter.

You have got to be kidding me.....:rolleyes:

All because he would not do a good job of defending Bargnani. Well that worked out well for us didn't it.

If Foster had not gone down with injury Roy would not have had the increased min. and would still have had several DNP-CD's due to "matchups".

His admiration for Toronto being a better team playing small nearly made me puke. Sorry, I don't want to be an O'Brien basher because I truely believe that he has kept the team together and playing at a high level. But at the end of the day I hate the way he prefers to play with small quick players. Don't get me wrong I don't want any three toed sloths out there but there is something to be said about size and mobility as much as there is for speed and quickness.

I know it is wrong for me to think this, and I know it is not his fault, but if Jeff Foster had to sit the rest of the season because of his back I would not be offended.

McKeyFan
03-17-2009, 06:46 AM
Ok I have now gone back and read the stars report on the game.

Roy came in after the team was down by 23 points in the 4th quarter.

You have got to be kidding me.....:rolleyes:

All because he would not do a good job of defending Bargnani. Well that worked out well for us didn't it.

If Foster had not gone down with injury Roy would not have had the increased min. and would still have had several DNP-CD's due to "matchups".

His admiration for Toronto being a better team playing small nearly made me puke. Sorry, I don't want to be an O'Brien basher because I truely believe that he has kept the team together and playing at a high level. But at the end of the day I hate the way he prefers to play with small quick players. Don't get me wrong I don't want any three toed sloths out there but there is something to be said about size and mobility as much as there is for speed and quickness.

I know it is wrong for me to think this, and I know it is not his fault, but if Jeff Foster had to sit the rest of the season because of his back I would not be offended.

I like JOB. I think he's better than most.

But this grudge he's got against Roy is making him lose some credibility, IMO.

I don't think JOB's benching Roy helps our team, and it sure doesn't keep Roy's confidence on balance.

As I've said in other posts, JOB has a track record of yanking younger players around and treating high salaried players with a different standard. It's not as bad as the Rick situation, but some of it exists with JOB as well, and it's showing up clearly with Roy.

I don't like it.

Unclebuck
03-17-2009, 07:31 AM
Ok, sadly I was gone over the past two games and missed both the Atlanta and Toronto game.

However just from readin this am I to assume that my thoughts about O'Briens being a better coach due to injury's may have been correct?

In other words I see that Roy did not start vs. Toronto so we went back to the (matchup) coaching that he wasn't able to do when Jeff was injured.

My guess is that we had plenty of Murphy and Granger on the floor at the same time playing the 4 & 5 spots as well.

If I am wrong about this please let me know. But like I said in my post I wanted to temper any praise for him with the fact that I thought that he was being forced to play this style due to player injury.

That begin said, I didn't see the games. Am I wrong about my assumptions here?



I missed large parts of both games, so I don't have an answer for you, except to say I think two games is not a large enough sample. From what I saw, the team was just flat - just played two terrible games and it had nothing to do with rotations, and who started and who didn't. Afterall the first half in each game was fine.

JOB did say after I think the Friday game that Roy's defense wasn't what it needs to be

Speed
03-17-2009, 09:02 AM
Ok I have now gone back and read the stars report on the game.

Roy came in after the team was down by 23 points in the 4th quarter.

You have got to be kidding me.....:rolleyes:

All because he would not do a good job of defending Bargnani. Well that worked out well for us didn't it.

If Foster had not gone down with injury Roy would not have had the increased min. and would still have had several DNP-CD's due to "matchups".

His admiration for Toronto being a better team playing small nearly made me puke. Sorry, I don't want to be an O'Brien basher because I truely believe that he has kept the team together and playing at a high level. But at the end of the day I hate the way he prefers to play with small quick players. Don't get me wrong I don't want any three toed sloths out there but there is something to be said about size and mobility as much as there is for speed and quickness.

I know it is wrong for me to think this, and I know it is not his fault, but if Jeff Foster had to sit the rest of the season because of his back I would not be offended.


This! Especially the part about puking. What I think is missing is yes maybe Roy needs to improve defensively, I'd agree, heck I'd think Roy would agree. Although, I think he has already shown marked improvement for a Rookie. Still he makes mistakes.

I think what is missing is the other side of the mismatch. I would have really liked to see Bargnani guard Roy in the post without fouling him. I don't think he could have. They could put Bosh on Roy, but then you have Bosh spending energy on D with 275 leaining on him and you've got Bargnani trying to guard Murphy 24 feet away from the basket. All I'm saying is there are two sides to the match up coin. As bad as Roy is defensively, at times, he's that good offensively or at least can be.

Roy playing changes the geometry of how a defense plays the Pacers.

I'd also say having a 7'2" guy around the paint even helps defensively a little too.

I'm tired of having mad scientists as coaches trying to out think the room.

Play your guys like Larry Brown did. Here's your role, here's what we expect of you in that role, here's your rotation, here's your minutes.

Don't play hard, there's a guy over here on the bench that will.

I like Obie, honestly. I like the way he's no nonsense in how he addresses the team. I think he has a great basketball knowledge. However, there's been about 500 times this year that the word "gimmick" pops in my head when I'm thinking about these things.

Maybe the team isn't good enough to play straight up basketball and have to try to be tricky to be competitive. I jut don't believe it, imo.

I don't think you have to over coach so much. Don't coach scared in that your guys can't win without some gimmick.

OakMoses
03-17-2009, 09:07 AM
Ok, sadly I was gone over the past two games and missed both the Atlanta and Toronto game.

My guess is that we had plenty of Murphy and Granger on the floor at the same time playing the 4 & 5 spots as well.


Actually, I'd say you were pretty fortunate to miss the past two games. I'd have been happier had I not watched them.

Your guess is 100% correct about the Granger/Murphy 4/5 combo. It worked out horribly for us, especially on the boards.


I don't think the Pacers should be playing Granger the rest of the season. ......but risking anything with Granger for the balance of this season is just wrong.

I don't think the Pacers are risking anything by playing Granger. If he wasn't ready, he wouldn't be playing. There was talk of him coming back for over a week before he finally got OK'd to play. I think they were actually pretty cautious with his injury.


As I've said in other posts, JOB has a track record of yanking younger players around and treating high salaried players with a different standard. It's not as bad as the Rick situation, but some of it exists with JOB as well, and it's showing up clearly with Roy.

I don't like it.

I don't like it either. I don't, however, think it has anything to do with salary, as you seem to imply here. I've said it before, but I think that JO'B values consistency to a fault. He knows exactly what he's going to get from guys like Jack, Foster, and Murphy. They're his comfort zone. Rookies and young players are very rarely consistent players. We've seen this with Roy and Rush this season.

count55
03-17-2009, 09:14 AM
I don't like it either. I don't, however, think it has anything to do with salary, as you seem to imply here. I've said it before, but I think that JO'B values consistency to a fault. He knows exactly what he's going to get from guys like Jack, Foster, and Murphy. They're his comfort zone. Rookies and young players are very rarely consistent players. We've seen this with Roy and Rush this season.

Dead on...this is also why he loves Jack and Foster so much. You pretty much always know what you're going to get from them, at least effort wise.

Speed
03-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Yep.

Obie = Linus

Jack & Foster = Security Blanket

count55
03-17-2009, 09:58 AM
Yep.

Obie = Linus

Jack & Foster = Security Blanket

The deal with Roy is frustrating, but I can think of worse sins for a coach to commit.

Speed
03-17-2009, 10:24 AM
The deal with Roy is frustrating, but I can think of worse sins for a coach to commit.

Maybe, but for a team 12 games under .500 this is a pretty big one in my eyes.

Shade
03-17-2009, 12:09 PM
I've been on the "make the playoffs" bandwagon all season. Until now.

If we can't even show up against a poor team like the Raptors at this critical juncture, not only do we have no business making the playoffs, but we won't make the playoffs.

14 games left to position ourselves for a better draft pick.

Seriously. Tank it.

duke dynamite
03-17-2009, 03:04 PM
Seriously. Tank it.
:eek:

MiaDragon
03-17-2009, 04:36 PM
I've been on the "make the playoffs" bandwagon all season. Until now.

If we can't even show up against a poor team like the Raptors at this critical juncture, not only do we have no business making the playoffs, but we won't make the playoffs.

14 games left to position ourselves for a better draft pick.

Seriously. Tank it.

IMO its too little too late, even if we lost all 14 games how much would that help us?

Shade
03-17-2009, 09:33 PM
:eek:

It was a Kravitz quote from last season.

Shade
03-17-2009, 09:34 PM
IMO its too little too late, even if we lost all 14 games how much would that help us?

Depends on how much the teams around us win in that 14-game stretch.