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Peck
03-12-2009, 02:56 AM
It's been awhile since I have done one of these so you will have to forgive me if I go everywhere with this post.

Right off the bat though I wanted to say that I did my part to help the team, well at least for next season. I officially re-upped for next year and I even upgraded my tickets a little bit. Not really any lower but I am now at a better angle and (well let's just say that Jeff Foster will now be within good earshot of me) :)

I want to give credit to my new ticket rep., cool guy to work with and actually watches the games and knows what is going on.

His name is Troy Brokl (317)917-2972 and if anyone needs tickets for something less than a full season he is your man. Just make sure if you call him you don't use your work phone if you happen to work in emergency services as it will give him a heart attack.;) (Yes, I know this from personal experiance).

After years and years and years of going and actually paying for my tickets and not getting upgrades, freebies or anything else from the team and nearly blowing a gasket about people sitting on the floor for free I now can no longer claim to be left on the outside. Troy heard my cries of discontent and for the past two games I have set down on the floor. One he got me the other Donato's provided. Either way I am now more happy.

Ok, end of paid advertisement for Troy. (honestly though he is a good guy, give him your business).

Well do I now jump into the fire and say what I have been thinking or do I hold off and talk about the team?

I think I will start with something light and go with this.

I do not think that Jim O'Brien has been given enough credit for the teams recent play. We are missing arguabley 3 of our projected 5 starters due to injury and we are still playing tough each and every game. For those of us that doubted that Jim could change styles of play, I think he has proven that false. Notice here lately that we are no longer scoring 120+ ppg and giving up 125?

We now run far more set plays, we even have Roy run some post up plays during the game.

I have moaned and complained as much as anyone about O'Brien and his system but I think you have to give credit where credit is due and right now O'Brien has this team competeing each and every night. There would be many teams that would have already shut it down for the year and given up or tuned out the coach, but that is not happening here.

Now don't get me wrong for the good that I just complimented I will throw this out there as well.

I think that injury's have forced O'Brien to be a better coach. Notice since Danny has gone out that we no longer play small ball very often? I know that we start a small back court but have you noticed that for 90% of the game we now have an actual center and power forward on the floor at the same time? Notice that since Jeff has been injured Roy has been starting and there have been no DNP-CD's due to not matching up with other teams?

Here comes my first controversial topic of the day.

Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy do NOT work together on the floor.

When those three were together we were running Troy at center and Mike & Danny at the forward spots. To soft and not enough defense.

Do you think it is a coincidence that since Mike has been gone and Danny has not been available that our defense has improved? Why?

Marquis Daniels, Brandon Rush and Jerret Jack are all tougher defenders than Mike and none of them are big enough to play the 4 spot like Danny does so we actually use power forwards there for most of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I love Granger and want him back. But I think that pinning our hopes on him and Mike working together just will not work.

BTW, I hate the fact that I have to care about the financial state of the team.

Nothing takes the fun out of this faster than having to care about salary caps., who makes what and how much money the team needs to shed.

As it stands right now two of the three catalyst that are helping currently will probably not be back here next year. Marquis and Jack will both probably have to walk this summer and right now they both are what is keeping us competative.

In fact next year looks to be either equal to or worse than this season as the team has zero ability to spend any money on free agents or improve the club. We are going to be facing a whole new group of players next season while we have several of the big money players not even playing (Tinsley, Dunleavy) and another player getting along in years now with chronic back pain (Foster).

We are actually looking at a club next year of

Danny Granger (all-star)
Troy Murphy (putting up all NBA type numbers)
Roy Hibbert (2nd year big man)
T.J. Ford (has a history of injury's)
Brandon Rush (2nd year player)
Jeff Foster (solid vet. who is now experiancing chronic pain)
Travis Diener (vet. who has had injury's)
Stephen Grahm (Vet who knows his role)

Then if we can sign him
Josh McRoberts (young player who does not fit into O'Briens system)

After that we are looking at a team of

Rookie first round (sadly once again this is going to be a mid first round pick)
Second round pick (Dallas has a good record so this won't be very high)
Whatever D-league player or walk on we can sign on the cheap.

I want to throw a fit, however this is the first time in my life where I just have to throw my hands up and say "I understand" when the team has to not do anyting to get better on the court.

Don't get me wrong, I hate it, I hate the fact that I have to care about it, but it is what it is and I know that the owners have no choice in the matter.

So while every instinct in my body tells me that I should howel at the moon about letting great trade bargaining chips walk away (Rasho, Quis) for nothing, I have resolved that for this year and probably the next couple this is what we are going to have to live with.

Well, I guess now I will go ahead and dive into what I know will be a very tough subject and one that will probably get me crucified on here with some of the older guys.

If you will recall I made a series of posts over the summer wanting to get out all of my old demons and start fresh this year. I talked about the brawl, O'Neal, the early 2000 teams, etc., etc.

However I left out one person in particular, I did this on purpose. I never talked about Donnie Walsh. I did this because frankly I was under the impression that his health was not the best and I just decided to leave it alone and move on.

I have held that to be true and I still do, so if you think this is going to be my long long post about Donnie well you will be either happy or dissapointed because that is not what I am doing here.

I am not going to talk about the years of him running the franchise from the basketball stand point, because God knows I could go on and on about that (as many of you that have been reading for the past 15 years can attest to).

No, today I am going to ask about something I always in fact took for granted and in fact would always be the one thing that I would always throw a bone to for the Walsh Warriors (you know who you are).

For all of the problems I had with the way he directed the team on the floor I always assumed that he was a great businessman and a wonderful steward of the Simons money.

I now am severly questioning this.

If we are to believe the Simons (to me they have earned the benefit of the doubt here, I understand others will disagree but that is not the point of this post) then the team has lost money 19 out of the last 20 years.

Who has been totally in charge of PS&E that entire time minus the past season and a half?

Could it be that he was actually overpaying his own free agents to stay when in fact the team could not afford it? I don't know if this is true or not but right now even the most staunch supporter of his has to ask this.

I don't know how much Donnie was involved in the inner workings of the club beyond the team itself but I know that he was the final arbitor of all things pacers from the mid 80's till just last season so my thought is that there wasn't a hot dog vendor working either MSA or the fieldhouse that he didn't have to give final approval of.

Did he work out the best financial deals for the team?

I don't have answers here, I am just asking questions.

Yes, they are leading questions but other than the Simons who would ultimately be responsible for the clubs business I don't know where else to look.

You have to understand, some of you guys that are young will just have no idea what I am talking about, but from the mid 80's to just about 3 seasons ago Donnie Walsh was the Pacers management. The Simons, at least in public, were one of the most hands off owners in the NBA. So I have live my life for the past 20 some years believing that if it happened with the Pacers it happened either at Donnie's behest or at the very least his approval.

Again I go back to this one thought, I always assumed that Donnie was a master of business and money. That is now in doubt.

I don't want to end this on a sour note so I want to talk about Troy Murphy for a few moments.

Just to go along with my thoughts about trying my best to let the past go I will say that I have been reading on other threads about Troy Murphy and Dale Davis.

Contrary to popular belief if you say the name Dale Davis three times I do not appear before you.:D

Anyway I made the post a few weeks ago about Troy stealing a few rebounds and it got way out of hand. (not Troy's rebounding, the posts about him stealing the rebounds)

I just want to give Troy some credit here. Other than Jack, I don't believe anyone has stepped up their game any more than Troy has since Danny has gone down.

This guy has done it all and has really stepped up his offensive production to try and compensate.

Look I'm not going to lie, he is softer than I prefer, but he gives you his all when he is on the floor and while maybe every board he gets isn't some fiercely fought battle with other board bangers he still gets rebounds.

I have been watching him the past few games more closely because I wanted to see if he was cheating on defense to get the boards. In other words was he not playing his man or position just so he could go track down the rebound? I will say this, while his defense could sure use some improvement, I don't think he abandons his post to get the boards.

I have never cared about his contract, until now and that is only because I am forced to, but I would love to have Troy next to a brute.

Speaking of which, Paul Milsap is a beast.

He is what Ike Diagu was supposed to be. To watch him in the second half of that Utah game was a thing of beauty and a joy forever. We have nothing, no one, not one single player or probably even two combined, that can match him in physical strength.

Ok, sorry didn't mean to end the post with an ode to a Jazz player.

I will end it on this,

:boomer:

Jose Slaughter
03-12-2009, 04:42 AM
Welcome back!

Wish I had more to add other than, nice post.

count55
03-12-2009, 06:43 AM
I still think we have a pretty solid shot at re-signing Jack this off season, say 4 in 5 (chances). I think 4/$16 is the likely price tag, and I would resist going much beyond that, if at all.

Spirit
03-12-2009, 06:54 AM
I would love to lock up Jack for 6 years. He is the true definition of what a Pacer should be and regardless of his occasional brain farts he brings a hell of a lot to the basketball court.

Will Galen
03-12-2009, 08:06 AM
On Walsh being a good businessman, does it even matter?

The Simons had to know they were losing money and they continued to lose money so it had to be okay at the time. I don't think losing money has much to do with Walsh since it appears he stayed within their budget.

And what are we really talking about? Bottom line, or after tax write offs?

As for Jack, like the others I think he will be resigned.

Unclebuck
03-12-2009, 08:40 AM
Peck, I think the Simons allowed Donnie Walsh to have a high payroll. Don't forget there were several years when the pacers were in the top 5 in payroll. So I don't think Donnie did whatever he wanted without the Simons fully endorsing it.

I'm not sure if Troy is my new guy or not, someone has called me a few times, but I haven't been able to speak with him.

I do think Jack will be back next season for sure - or maybe I should say the pacers really want him back and will do almost whatever is necessary to keep him. Sure, there is always a possibility that a team overpays him and he walks.

No chance Rasho will be back. 0% If no other team wants him and he is willing to play here for the vets min, I think the pacers will say no thanks. Plus he probably will want to go back overseas.

Daniels - is probably gone - although I'm not ready to say it is for sure yet.

duke dynamite
03-12-2009, 09:24 AM
First off, these thoughts aren't that odd. Almost everyone is thinking them.

I wouldn't consider myself too young in the aspect of knowing the financial workings, but more ignorant to an extent. I've stated numerous times that I never cared to follow contracts, deals, bonuses...the whole nine yards when it comes to running an NBA franchise. Heck, I'm a big...big Colts fan. Ask me how much money Peyton gets. I honestly don't know, nor do I care to know.

Back onto the subject...being the optimist that I am, I can see some changes coming next year with our roster, but I do not feel that they are as bad as you make it out to be, Peck. Yes, the team is losing money, but we have to spend money to make money, regardless where we are now. I'm not saying we go out and land us the ultimate free-agent or whatever, but in order to improve we have to let out a little more cash.

Which makes me think...why are the Simons way too humble? Why won't they take any of that loan the league is offering? For sure it's high interest from what I understand, but it will help us get over a hump.

Daniels, I have liked him since Dallas. I really liked Austin, however I will not go into that. With the way he has played this year, minus injuries, I want him back as insurance for Dunleavy. That was really hard to say. Rush is nowhere near most people expected him to be at before the season. You know who you are.

Jack, other than his blatant misuse of the basketball in the lane, he has had a heck of a year. I say keep him.

Now onto what I've been looking forward to in this whole response. Let's talk Troy Murphy.

Although unconventional, Troy has demonstrated night in and night out that he is the best player we have available for the moment. He stepped up in some pretty big shoes, and has even broken a record. I can go on and on...but I shouldn't.

BTW: dustpan and I now have matching Murphy jerseys. I'm excited.

BillS
03-12-2009, 09:39 AM
Of course I think Donnie did well with what the Simons gave him.

On the losses, I really only count the ones since Conseco was built, as we know they were bleeding money in MSA. Anyone surprised by those years either wasn't around or wasn't paying attention to the costs in that building vs. the limited income potential.

That said, though, I would like to get someone in the Simon's organization to address the discrepancy between the Forbes numbers and the CIB numbers. If that were explained it might go a long way toward giving people confidence in the claims, as opposed to the seemingly growing number of people who believe the Simons are greedy pathological liars out to bankrupt the city of Indianapolis while cackling their way to the <strike>bank</strike> mattress.

able
03-12-2009, 10:35 AM
Of course I think Donnie did well with what the Simons gave him.

On the losses, I really only count the ones since Conseco was built, as we know they were bleeding money in MSA. Anyone surprised by those years either wasn't around or wasn't paying attention to the costs in that building vs. the limited income potential.

That said, though, I would like to get someone in the Simon's organization to address the discrepancy between the Forbes numbers and the CIB numbers. If that were explained it might go a long way toward giving people confidence in the claims, as opposed to the seemingly growing number of people who believe the Simons are greedy pathological liars out to bankrupt the city of Indianapolis while cackling their way to the <strike>bank</strike> mattress.


not that hard, to explain that is :)

numbers in Forbes are "pacers", numers now used are "total"
the 15 million a year to run CFH are simply what causes the losses atm, without them (excluding one or two years) the team makes a small profit.

They can then take a hit in a year over the cap if so required and chances are we can win something, now they are dropping it all into CFH and that stings because the Colts GET money to be in Lucas Oil.

simple

Anthem
03-12-2009, 10:55 AM
I completely agree, Peck, that Trophy at C and Danny at PF is a terrible combo. My question, though, is this: Do you feel better about Danny and Troy being on the court at the same time at their natural positions?

And I've always said I don't like the Danny/Dunleavy combo at the swing spots.

BillS
03-12-2009, 12:11 PM
not that hard, to explain that is :)

numbers in Forbes are "pacers", numers now used are "total"
the 15 million a year to run CFH are simply what causes the losses atm, without them (excluding one or two years) the team makes a small profit.

They can then take a hit in a year over the cap if so required and chances are we can win something, now they are dropping it all into CFH and that stings because the Colts GET money to be in Lucas Oil.

simple

Yeah, there are lots of ways to figure it out, what I'm hoping for is for someone in the Simon organization to confirm it. For instance, the cost of operating the facility should (I think) be accounted for before Operating Profit, but I don't know what organization that would be considered part of.

grace
03-12-2009, 12:37 PM
I never talked about Donnie Walsh.

I got this far and quit. I've been to enough forum parties to know how you feel about him. I choose not to rehash it again.

:goodnight

Bball
03-12-2009, 08:55 PM
Is it a sign of the times or what that the Walsh Warriors don't rally to torch this post? In years past, anything said even vaguely negative or even implied about Walsh would've been met with a massive rallying of the troops.

I'm not sold on Jim O'Brien as coach. I don't like his philosophy when I see it in action regardless of the words he uses. It is simply not the approach I want to see or ultimately believe in for long-term and meaningful (read: playoff winning basketball) success.

But he's kept himself on top throughout the losing and even found himself recently doing a lot more winning. Either he has a good rapport with the team, or we have professional, team players... or both.

I think he gets maximum effort, but I don't think he always puts them into position to succeed and that ultimately will be his undoing.

If we use him as the interim piece and a bridge to the next coach and phase of the team then I suppose it's all good. My worry is that he'll accomplish just enough to give us fool's gold and earn a new contract which will really paint us into a bad financial picture as well as see the professionalism of the team not be enough to maintain that good rapport thru too much losing.

Hicks
03-12-2009, 09:08 PM
I know this isn't the thread for it, but I feel it needs to be said.

I believe O'Brien may be quoted as saying (per his last radio show) that this is not "his system" but merely what he feels is best for the current roster. Considering this isn't what we saw last year, I expect it to look different for the 3rd year in a row next season.

Anyone disagreeing with his apparent philosophies is free to do so (obviously). However, don't confuse his greater philosophies with the specific system he has in place right now. It's generally considered the sign of a good coach when said coach adjusts his system for the players he has been given to work with. I think Jim has proven to display that ability, and I think he will do so again next season.

I'm not going to sit here and say I think he's as good as the Pacers will ever get as a coach, but I am saying there are reasons to believe he's at a high enough level to warrant keeping around for more than the immediate future.

Hicks
03-12-2009, 09:13 PM
As to the point of Granger, Dunleavy, and Murphy not fitting together: I certainly agree when we're talking a lineup where Mike is the SF, Danny the PF, and Troy the C. I generally agree when you shift that to SG-SF-PF, but I think Danny and Troy can work fairly well as SF/PF.

I also believe Peck needs to provide a lot more evidence to support the idea that Donnie Walsh is (one of) the primary reason(s) for the Pacers losing money so many seasons.

If Walsh hasn't spent it on the players many feel didn't deserve it, it's quite likely he would have spent it on at lease some player or another, so I think the point it largely moot when the argument is about him affecting the financial issues of the team. Whether the players he gave the money to or not were most worthy of it over others is irrelevant when that's the question.

BlueNGold
03-12-2009, 10:06 PM
I know this isn't the thread for it, but I feel it needs to be said.

I believe O'Brien may be quoted as saying (per his last radio show) that this is not "his system" but merely what he feels is best for the current roster. Considering this isn't what we saw last year, I expect it to look different for the 3rd year in a row next season.

Anyone disagreeing with his apparent philosophies is free to do so (obviously). However, don't confuse his greater philosophies with the specific system he has in place right now. It's generally considered the sign of a good coach when said coach adjusts his system for the players he has been given to work with. I think Jim has proven to display that ability, and I think he will do so again next season.

I'm not going to sit here and say I think he's as good as the Pacers will ever get as a coach, but I am saying there are reasons to believe he's at a high enough level to warrant keeping around for more than the immediate future.

I think JOb's coaching philosophy became evident after the 127-120 or so victory over Golden State last year. He was giddy as a school girl that the team was running up and down the floor. He was more animated than I had ever seen him. He basically said that basketball was meant to be played that way...he specifically said "with fast breaks". Jarrett Jack said it was like a game at the playground.

Rather than making adjustments willingly, JOb's hand is being forced. He is being forced to play better defenders who cannot shoot the 3 pointer. The last 10 games have coincided with increased minutes for Quis. Also, Foster has been getting more consistent minutes...except the Utah game....which we of course lost.

Here are the results over the last 20 games. The higher the scoring, the more we seem to lose:

With both Mike and Danny:
Record: 2-4
Opponent PPG: 110
PPG:109

With Danny but not Mike:
Record: 4-6
Opponent PPG: 107
PPG:105

With neither
Record: 6-4
Opponent PPG: 104
PPG: 106

Anthem
03-12-2009, 10:39 PM
Is it a sign of the times or what that the Walsh Warriors don't rally to torch this post? In years past, anything said even vaguely negative or even implied about Walsh would've been met with a massive rallying of the troops.
I assume I'm one of the Walsh Warriors. If so, my answer is simple. I don't have the energy for it right now. It's been done to death. For old time's sake, here's my quick and dirty take:

I don't think the Simons every thought it was Donnie's job to maximize profits. I think the goal was to keep the team competitive and winning. If they were upset about the way he ran things they'd have fired him... the dude ran the franchise for years and then walked away. They apparently didn't feel any need to get rid of him.

I don't think the Simons really wanted the team to be a profit center, they just wanted to not lose TONS of money. A small loss was ok for a really nice toy. The situation has changed, and now they're hemorrhaging cash. So I don't think they were lying about the team rarely making a profit, I just think that for most of that time profit-making wasn't really the goal.

If you really want to think they're devious, tell yourself that the Simons were making their money from the increasing value of the franchise instead of the year-to-year profit.

Take that for what it's worth.

Bball
03-12-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm not going to sit here and say I think he's as good as the Pacers will ever get as a coach, but I am saying there are reasons to believe he's at a high enough level to warrant keeping around for more than the immediate future.

I hope you're right, but that would be the 'fool's gold' scenario that worries me... assuming you mean giving him another contract that leads past next year.

If you just mean not firing him now and letting have a crack at next year then that's probably a foregone conclusion right now. But I don't think we should be surprised to see this system, with these players (the ones likely still here), net anything much different.

I just don't agree that the emphasis should be on high scores if you are at a talent differential. Then again, I'm always going to be in favor of a pace that values the possessions so it's hard for me to accept much of what O'Brien has preached via actions anyway.

BillS
03-13-2009, 10:15 AM
I also believe Peck needs to provide a lot more evidence to support the idea that Donnie Walsh is (one of) the primary reason(s) for the Pacers losing money so many seasons.

:shrug:

It's Peck.

Deep down, I think he figures Donnie is:

- instigator of over 50% of the failed sub-prime mortgages
- Bernie Madoff's right-hand financial adviser
- Dr. Evil's REAL henchman

Evidence is so outdated :zip:

SycamoreKen
03-13-2009, 12:36 PM
:shrug:

It's Peck.

Deep down, I think he figures Donnie is:

- instigator of over 50% of the failed sub-prime mortgages
- Bernie Madoff's right-hand financial adviser
- Dr. Evil's REAL henchman

Evidence is so outdated :zip:

You forgot he now is making the Knicks relevent again. He left us in this mess to give them one less team to climb over.;)

Twes
03-13-2009, 03:39 PM
It's been awhile since I have done one of these so you will have to forgive me if I go everywhere with this post.

Right off the bat though I wanted to say that I did my part to help the team, well at least for next season. I officially re-upped for next year and I even upgraded my tickets a little bit. Not really any lower but I am now at a better angle and (well let's just say that Jeff Foster will now be within good earshot of me) :)

I want to give credit to my new ticket rep., cool guy to work with and actually watches the games and knows what is going on.

His name is Troy Brokl (317)917-2972 and if anyone needs tickets for something less than a full season he is your man. Just make sure if you call him you don't use your work phone if you happen to work in emergency services as it will give him a heart attack.;) (Yes, I know this from personal experiance).

After years and years and years of going and actually paying for my tickets and not getting upgrades, freebies or anything else from the team and nearly blowing a gasket about people sitting on the floor for free I now can no longer claim to be left on the outside. Troy heard my cries of discontent and for the past two games I have set down on the floor. One he got me the other Donato's provided. Either way I am now more happy.

Ok, end of paid advertisement for Troy. (honestly though he is a good guy, give him your business).

Well do I now jump into the fire and say what I have been thinking or do I hold off and talk about the team?

I think I will start with something light and go with this.

I do not think that Jim O'Brien has been given enough credit for the teams recent play. We are missing arguabley 3 of our projected 5 starters due to injury and we are still playing tough each and every game. For those of us that doubted that Jim could change styles of play, I think he has proven that false. Notice here lately that we are no longer scoring 120+ ppg and giving up 125?

We now run far more set plays, we even have Roy run some post up plays during the game.

I have moaned and complained as much as anyone about O'Brien and his system but I think you have to give credit where credit is due and right now O'Brien has this team competeing each and every night. There would be many teams that would have already shut it down for the year and given up or tuned out the coach, but that is not happening here.

Now don't get me wrong for the good that I just complimented I will throw this out there as well.

I think that injury's have forced O'Brien to be a better coach. Notice since Danny has gone out that we no longer play small ball very often? I know that we start a small back court but have you noticed that for 90% of the game we now have an actual center and power forward on the floor at the same time? Notice that since Jeff has been injured Roy has been starting and there have been no DNP-CD's due to not matching up with other teams?

Here comes my first controversial topic of the day.

Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy do NOT work together on the floor.

When those three were together we were running Troy at center and Mike & Danny at the forward spots. To soft and not enough defense.

Do you think it is a coincidence that since Mike has been gone and Danny has not been available that our defense has improved? Why?

Marquis Daniels, Brandon Rush and Jerret Jack are all tougher defenders than Mike and none of them are big enough to play the 4 spot like Danny does so we actually use power forwards there for most of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I love Granger and want him back. But I think that pinning our hopes on him and Mike working together just will not work.

BTW, I hate the fact that I have to care about the financial state of the team.

Nothing takes the fun out of this faster than having to care about salary caps., who makes what and how much money the team needs to shed.

As it stands right now two of the three catalyst that are helping currently will probably not be back here next year. Marquis and Jack will both probably have to walk this summer and right now they both are what is keeping us competative.

In fact next year looks to be either equal to or worse than this season as the team has zero ability to spend any money on free agents or improve the club. We are going to be facing a whole new group of players next season while we have several of the big money players not even playing (Tinsley, Dunleavy) and another player getting along in years now with chronic back pain (Foster).

We are actually looking at a club next year of

Danny Granger (all-star)
Troy Murphy (putting up all NBA type numbers)
Roy Hibbert (2nd year big man)
T.J. Ford (has a history of injury's)
Brandon Rush (2nd year player)
Jeff Foster (solid vet. who is now experiancing chronic pain)
Travis Diener (vet. who has had injury's)
Stephen Grahm (Vet who knows his role)

Then if we can sign him
Josh McRoberts (young player who does not fit into O'Briens system)

After that we are looking at a team of

Rookie first round (sadly once again this is going to be a mid first round pick)
Second round pick (Dallas has a good record so this won't be very high)
Whatever D-league player or walk on we can sign on the cheap.

I want to throw a fit, however this is the first time in my life where I just have to throw my hands up and say "I understand" when the team has to not do anyting to get better on the court.

Don't get me wrong, I hate it, I hate the fact that I have to care about it, but it is what it is and I know that the owners have no choice in the matter.

So while every instinct in my body tells me that I should howel at the moon about letting great trade bargaining chips walk away (Rasho, Quis) for nothing, I have resolved that for this year and probably the next couple this is what we are going to have to live with.

Well, I guess now I will go ahead and dive into what I know will be a very tough subject and one that will probably get me crucified on here with some of the older guys.

If you will recall I made a series of posts over the summer wanting to get out all of my old demons and start fresh this year. I talked about the brawl, O'Neal, the early 2000 teams, etc., etc.

However I left out one person in particular, I did this on purpose. I never talked about Donnie Walsh. I did this because frankly I was under the impression that his health was not the best and I just decided to leave it alone and move on.

I have held that to be true and I still do, so if you think this is going to be my long long post about Donnie well you will be either happy or dissapointed because that is not what I am doing here.

I am not going to talk about the years of him running the franchise from the basketball stand point, because God knows I could go on and on about that (as many of you that have been reading for the past 15 years can attest to).

No, today I am going to ask about something I always in fact took for granted and in fact would always be the one thing that I would always throw a bone to for the Walsh Warriors (you know who you are).

For all of the problems I had with the way he directed the team on the floor I always assumed that he was a great businessman and a wonderful steward of the Simons money.

I now am severly questioning this.

If we are to believe the Simons (to me they have earned the benefit of the doubt here, I understand others will disagree but that is not the point of this post) then the team has lost money 19 out of the last 20 years.

Who has been totally in charge of PS&E that entire time minus the past season and a half?

Could it be that he was actually overpaying his own free agents to stay when in fact the team could not afford it? I don't know if this is true or not but right now even the most staunch supporter of his has to ask this.

I don't know how much Donnie was involved in the inner workings of the club beyond the team itself but I know that he was the final arbitor of all things pacers from the mid 80's till just last season so my thought is that there wasn't a hot dog vendor working either MSA or the fieldhouse that he didn't have to give final approval of.

Did he work out the best financial deals for the team?

I don't have answers here, I am just asking questions.

Yes, they are leading questions but other than the Simons who would ultimately be responsible for the clubs business I don't know where else to look.

You have to understand, some of you guys that are young will just have no idea what I am talking about, but from the mid 80's to just about 3 seasons ago Donnie Walsh was the Pacers management. The Simons, at least in public, were one of the most hands off owners in the NBA. So I have live my life for the past 20 some years believing that if it happened with the Pacers it happened either at Donnie's behest or at the very least his approval.

Again I go back to this one thought, I always assumed that Donnie was a master of business and money. That is now in doubt.

I don't want to end this on a sour note so I want to talk about Troy Murphy for a few moments.

Just to go along with my thoughts about trying my best to let the past go I will say that I have been reading on other threads about Troy Murphy and Dale Davis.

Contrary to popular belief if you say the name Dale Davis three times I do not appear before you.:D

Anyway I made the post a few weeks ago about Troy stealing a few rebounds and it got way out of hand. (not Troy's rebounding, the posts about him stealing the rebounds)

I just want to give Troy some credit here. Other than Jack, I don't believe anyone has stepped up their game any more than Troy has since Danny has gone down.

This guy has done it all and has really stepped up his offensive production to try and compensate.

Look I'm not going to lie, he is softer than I prefer, but he gives you his all when he is on the floor and while maybe every board he gets isn't some fiercely fought battle with other board bangers he still gets rebounds.

I have been watching him the past few games more closely because I wanted to see if he was cheating on defense to get the boards. In other words was he not playing his man or position just so he could go track down the rebound? I will say this, while his defense could sure use some improvement, I don't think he abandons his post to get the boards.

I have never cared about his contract, until now and that is only because I am forced to, but I would love to have Troy next to a brute.

Speaking of which, Paul Milsap is a beast.

He is what Ike Diagu was supposed to be. To watch him in the second half of that Utah game was a thing of beauty and a joy forever. We have nothing, no one, not one single player or probably even two combined, that can match him in physical strength.

Ok, sorry didn't mean to end the post with an ode to a Jazz player.

I will end it on this,

:boomer:




I think you could have held out for 4 games courtside buddy.

I'm just sayin.

Twes

Anthem
03-13-2009, 04:10 PM
Holy cow it's Twes. Posting in the main forum, no less.

Twes
03-13-2009, 04:19 PM
Holy cow it's Twes. Posting in the main forum, no less.

It feels a little strange to me too. :D

In daylight no less.

BillS
03-13-2009, 05:24 PM
Whoa. Is it 2004 already?

Naptown_Seth
03-13-2009, 05:55 PM
Notice here lately that we are no longer scoring 120+ ppg and giving up 125?
I would direct you to the game log of one Mr. Marquis Daniels. Odd timing, don't you think.

I would then also guide you to examine the Min Per Game for Brandon Rush.


You are right to say that any coach missing key players should be praised for winning. I totally agree with that. I also think he's got Troy locked into his role and that it fits him perfectly, and that Troy could not be propped up to look more like an all-star by any other coach even if I think there's a big void hiding behind that image of greatness.

It's taken the better part of the year and losing the team's top player, but finally there is some sense of pattern and rhythm. I wish McBob was getting a chance to fit into that pattern, but at least Roy and Rush are. My only question is why it couldn't happen sooner.


Oh, and the horrible feeling I get when I notice the correlation between defensive PPG and Marquis and then realize they can't afford to keep him. Imagine an entire year of 120 PPG allowed. Your 1984 Denver Nuggets everyone.

Twes
03-14-2009, 06:10 PM
Whoa. Is it 2004 already?

Did we miss Y2k?

Twes
03-14-2009, 09:44 PM
If these are the Odd thoughts...where are the... others?