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View Full Version : Revisit the "Brawl" with a different perspective



denyfizle
03-09-2009, 04:44 AM
Bad officiating in sports


http://www.examiner.com/x-3586-Indiana-Pacers-Examiner~y2009m3d8-Bad-officiating-in-sports

bellisimo
03-09-2009, 07:11 AM
i'd rather not visit that again...but thanks for the link/info :)

Peck
03-09-2009, 07:19 AM
How did you get that photo of yourself at center court?

Anyway I enjoyed the article overall, however if you will allow one small critique. It is debatable that Ben Wallace was the instigator in this event, thus to a fan outside of the Pacers it will cheapen the overall message of your post.

I think it would have been better to state that the Refs. should have stepped in at the first sign of trouble or taken a more active role in controling the event.

But other than that I think you did a very good job of tying everything together and it was very well written and entertaining.

duke dynamite
03-09-2009, 07:47 AM
*Whining kid voice as if forced to eat vegetables.*

Do I have to?

sloopjohnb
03-09-2009, 08:49 AM
Well, we did end up with a lower draft pick thanks to the brawl. And we got Granger out of it. Still wish it never happened, but I try to stay positive when I think of that ugly event.

MillerTime
03-09-2009, 09:09 AM
Well, we did end up with a lower draft pick thanks to the brawl. And we got Granger out of it. Still wish it never happened, but I try to stay positive when I think of that ugly event.

No one should ever wished that ever happened. We had such an amazing team that year. We had a great starting 5 with a solid bench. We were a defense first type of team (I love those kind of teams).

I remember before the brawl Artest was killing it the 7 or 8 games that he played that season

Dr. Hibbert
03-09-2009, 10:31 AM
God...I still remember watching the Brawl live. Was a great bball game, and then that. Shouted for my dad to come in the room, I just had to confirm that what was happening was really real.

A couple of things still get under my skin about it until this day:

1. All ESPN talked about the night of the brawl (during and after) was how disgraceful Pistons fans were, and how Detroit should be heavily penalized for what their fanbase did along with their players. All Stephen A. Smith and Stuart Scott could talk about was how humiliating it is for an athlete to be doused in beer, and how Detroit fans (sweeping generalization, obviously) were pitiful for their part in the brawl. I believe Screamin' A actually condoned what Ron Ron did, the night of. But the next day forward? All ESPN can talk about is how thuggish all the Pacers are. They completely ignored everything they said the night it happened.

2. Ron Ron had done a remarkable job controlling himself up until the cup throw. Usually you would think he would have pinned Ben Wallace to the ground and smashed his face into the court, but he actually acted with restraint! And then he started gaming and trying to show up Ben by laying on the scorer's table not once but twice. If Ron doesn't keep trying to one-up himself by flaunting his "calmness", maybe the brawl doesn't happen.

3. History gives Ben Wallace such little blame for the brawl. Not only did he overreact about as badly as I've seen a player overreact to a foul that wasn't even that hard, but he just kept instigating the process over the course of several minutes, wouldn't leave the court, put additional strain on his teammates, etc. Then the towel throw, of course, which inspired the whole fiasco. If Wallace if half-sane and if a competent security/coaching staff gets him off the court instead of letting him linger around and add fuel to the fire, nothing ever happens.

4. So weird that, in retrospect, Rasheed Wallace was probably the best-behaved player in the building that evening.

5. Tinsley should have gotten a 20-game suspension for "wimpiest use of a weapon to threaten someone" in the brawl. A dustpan? Seriously? Somehow I don't think that was going to make the slightest bit of difference if ever used.

travmil
03-09-2009, 11:55 AM
It is debatable that Ben Wallace was the instigator in this event...

Yeah it's debatable, but the arrow sure points a bit farther in Ben's direction. If Ron started it why was he not ejected first?

Actually in retrospect, I wish Ron and Ben had just thrown down at center court, especially since Ron would have only gotten the same 6 game suspension that Ben got out of it.

ChicagoJ
03-09-2009, 12:10 PM
I remember before the brawl Artest was killing it the 7 or 8 games that he played that season

Which doesn't include the two games he had already been suspended by the team for "announcing his retirement/ starting a physcial altercation for JO". Or what is commonly referred to as the "take time off to produce my CD" incident (:laugh:)

Yep. That team was either going to go undefeated or explode into tiny pieces.

grace
03-09-2009, 12:23 PM
I'm sure as soon as Kegboy saw the title of this thread his head exploded. I just want to let his co-workers know I'm not cleaning up the mess.

Kegboy
03-09-2009, 02:28 PM
1. All ESPN talked about the night of the brawl (during and after) was how disgraceful Pistons fans were, and how Detroit should be heavily penalized for what their fanbase did along with their players. All Stephen A. Smith and Stuart Scott could talk about was how humiliating it is for an athlete to be doused in beer, and how Detroit fans (sweeping generalization, obviously) were pitiful for their part in the brawl. I believe Screamin' A actually condoned what Ron Ron did, the night of. But the next day forward? All ESPN can talk about is how thuggish all the Pacers are. They completely ignored everything they said the night it happened.

I would point out that, well after the fact, Greg Anthony admitted that, at Stern's prompting, TPTB at ESPN came down on them hard to change there tune. But, sadly, I can't, since my head just exploded.

[edit] In retrospect, the worst thing to come out of the brawl was Peck's 4 hour rant last summer, which ruined me on ever going to a forum party again.

special ed
03-09-2009, 03:02 PM
Talk to most Piston fans (and most of my relatives fall in that category) and 99% of the blame is on Artest for laying on the scorer's table. Ben was just doing what Ben, and Piston people do, especially in that building.
Most Pacerfans have a different perspective, especially given the suspensions Stern doled out.
Hilarious that David Harrison was criminally charged yet received no suspension and the Tinsley sweep is still classic!
I'd really rather not revisit though, because everytime I see certain relatives, we can't even go there.

wjs
03-09-2009, 03:47 PM
Dr. Hibbert, your points # 1 to 5 are exactly correct.

Just a few comments to add, after reviewing the game tape:

• I have always wondered why Carlisle did not pull all the starters before the fight had the chance to begin. Immediately preceding the brawl, during a stoppage of play resulting from a Detroit foul of Stephen Jackson, Rick did pull Jermaine and Croshere, but left on the court Tinsley, Jackson (who was shooting 2 free throws, and so could not be pulled) and of course, Ron-Ron. (The other 2 Pacers on the court at the time of the fight were Fred Jones and Eddie Gill.) We had 4 Pacers wearing street clothes that night -- Reggie, Foster, Anthony Johnson, and Scott Pollard -- so maybe Rick just figured, WTH, why put in James Jones or David Harrison even with a 14 point lead (prior to Jackson's second foul shot) and only 57.2 seconds to play? It was a lapse of judgment that he, among others, will forever regret.

• Artest assumed his position on the scorer's bench approximately 9 seconds (only) following the commencement of hostilities. Once there, he was "protected" by Reggie for approximately 1 minute, as things seemed to calm down. Unfortunately, Reggie left that area, and was replaced by a Pacers' asst. coach (not sure which one) who, when the first cup came sailing in and struck Artest in the face, was facing Ron with his hand on Artest’s chest. The asst. coach looks up to see where the cup came from, and in that instant, Artest is up and in the stands, famously climbing through the Pacers' radio team to get there.

• To your point that Big Ben deserves more blame, arguably the entire episode began at 1:26 remaining, when Wallace appears to hammer Artest on a layup (Artest wound up on the floor, hitting the padded area under the basket) on a play in which no foul was called. It should be noted that in between that non-call play and 0:45.9 when the brawl began, Artest was able to throw down a slam dunk on a breakaway play, so perhaps his inner beast should have been soothed. Plus, there had been the interlude during which Jackson hit 2 foul shots. So, while I believe Artest’s not-so-hard foul on Wallace was in retaliation for Wallace’s play at 1:26, most normal players would have let it go by 0:45.9; and in any event, Carlisle should have pulled him from the game at 0.57.2. But Ron is not a normal player and Rick made a tragic mistake.

• Bill Walton's reaction to Artest's foul on Wallace upon reviewing the videotape: "That's not that hard of a foul." To which Mike Breen basically agreed. (Breen & Walton called the game on ESPN.)

• Tinsley's line in the game included: 13 points, 8 assists, and 8 steals. He was fabulous.

duke dynamite
03-09-2009, 04:13 PM
[edit] In retrospect, the worst thing to come out of the brawl was Peck's 4 hour rant last summer, which ruined me on ever going to a forum party again.
That wasn't the only 4 hour rant he had that night. Thanks for specifying.

Tin Man Vs. Phoenix circa 2007

denyfizle
03-09-2009, 04:30 PM
How did you get that photo of yourself at center court?

Anyway I enjoyed the article overall, however if you will allow one small critique. It is debatable that Ben Wallace was the instigator in this event, thus to a fan outside of the Pacers it will cheapen the overall message of your post.

I think it would have been better to state that the Refs. should have stepped in at the first sign of trouble or taken a more active role in controling the event.

But other than that I think you did a very good job of tying everything together and it was very well written and entertaining.

True... I mean really, the refs should've handled that incident better together with the Pistons bench. Heck, Larry Brown seemed like he wanted a piece of the action too before it all went down. I mean, it is debatable, but at the end of the day, Ben Wallace was the instigator for me cause he was the one who kept stalking and stalking Artest plus the fact that he was the one that threw a punch-like shove at Artest but Artest didn't retaliate. The refs should've thrown Wallace out immediately, instead they looked like lost bums out there. Artest never should've ran after the fan though, but still, it never even had to come to that point if matters were dealt with appropriately.

Thanks for reading the article. As for the picture, media credentials help and just being thick-faced and fearless I guess. LOL

edc
03-09-2009, 04:50 PM
Im still happy even that season got lost because of the brawl. Its entertaining to watch those pistons fans got punch by Artest, Jackson and Jermaine... :D

NuffSaid
03-09-2009, 05:40 PM
From the article:

"Actually, convicted felon and former NBA referee Tim Donaghy was one of the officials in this game..."

I didn't know that!

Interesting...

Could it be that one reason the game wasn't officiated tighter or that Big Ben wasn't ejected was because it was in Donaghy's best interested that the Pistons win or that the spread was somehow covered?

(Disclaimer: I know nothing about sports betting. So, forgive me if I'm totally off in my hypothesis.)

I stand by my assessment from years ago that Big Ben started the fight, the refs did little to calm things down, and Stephen Jackson was more at fault than Ron Artest only because SJax threw the first punch. Still, had Ben Wallance been ejected (or restrained better) the Brawl would never have happened.

wjs,

I doubt RC could have predicted a fight would've broken out or that the fans would inject themselves into the game like that. I'm sure if he really felt that there was no chance at all for the Pistons to come back he would have pulled his starters. For, as we all know the Pistons of that day were notorious for pulling out come-from-behind victories. So, looking back, I don't blame RC one bit for keeping the starters out there. These were rival teams, after all! If nothing else, the Pacers wanted to send a message: that they could beat the Pistons! It was the first game the two teams faced each other since the ECF the previous year. And we all know who won that series. So, no. I don't blame RC at all for sticking with the starters.

As to who to blame for the Brawl as far as the Pacers are concerned, I still can't say I blame Artest for going into the stands particularly upon learning that fans had been throwing coins and other small objects at him for some time, but it was never reported until after the Brawl (and even then it was kept "hush, hush"). Under the circumstances, and I've said this before, I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same thing. But SJax had no business going up there.

Dr. Hibbert
03-09-2009, 07:29 PM
I would point out that, well after the fact, Greg Anthony admitted that, at Stern's prompting, TPTB at ESPN came down on them hard to change there tune. But, sadly, I can't, since my head just exploded.

[edit] In retrospect, the worst thing to come out of the brawl was Peck's 4 hour rant last summer, which ruined me on ever going to a forum party again.

Did not know that. But it makes sense. Jeez, I'm gonna be sick to my stomach when Stern is inducted into the basketball HOF. It will be interesting to see who ended up ruining their respective pro sport more: Stern or Bud Selig.

Dr. Hibbert
03-09-2009, 07:36 PM
Once there, he was "protected" by Reggie for approximately 1 minute, as things seemed to calm down.

Ha, I almost forgot Reggie was there. How ridiculous is it that he got a suspension for his peacemaking efforts? That whole thing was just handled so freaking poorly. Ditto for Chauncey Billups getting a suspension. They claimed it was "by the book" to suspend for at least one game for entering the stands, yet (A) there was no precedent for an event like that, so there really weren't any rules to base things off, (B) some players like Reggie and Rasheed were genuinely trying to quell the situation and (C) guys like Fred Jones were in the stands (getting choked by Big Ben's even more thuggish brother) yet did not get suspended. None of the punishments made sense...in fact, I would have flipped SJax's and Ron's punishments, but that's just my judgment call - SJax was by far the worst aggressor, even if he was in the mode of protecting his teammate.

Also a little tidbit I had forgotten: ESPN and other sports outlets made such a huge deal about that little kid crying, saying what a shame these pro athletes had managed to scare them like that. But no one points out that they were probably crying because their freaking dad had marched down to put Fred Jones in a headlock! I'm not saying the players didn't deserve any of the blame, but how the Detroit fanbase (and some of their players, but really, most of their roster played things well in such chaos) came off with as little scorn as it did is just incredible.

wjs
03-09-2009, 08:22 PM
...in fact, I would have flipped SJax's and Ron's punishments, but that's just my judgment call - SJax was by far the worst aggressor, even if he was in the mode of protecting his teammate.

... but how the Detroit fanbase (and some of their players, but really, most of their roster played things well in such chaos) came off with as little scorn as it did is just incredible.

Agree again.

Artest aside, the Pacers’ #1 offender that night was Stephen Jackson. He was ready to fight, dukes up, from the get-go. He was in the stands nearly as fast as Artest, like 1 second later. (The guy who nearly contained Artest, and who was valiantly attempting to stop Artest even as Jackson pivoted around him to fight fans, was asst. coach Mike Brown.)

The Detroit fans were not punished severely enough (at all, really). Admittedly, the fan behavior – from the initial cup throwing to the proceedings which ensued as the Pacers attempted to exit the court – was a difficult matter to punish. But some gesture by the NBA was in order, e.g., compelling the Pistons to play 10 games with no fans in the lower bowl, or in the arena at all, or some such. The NBA made a cynical and calculated decision to designate the Pacers as offenders, and to punish the team and franchise accordingly, in order to not punish the World Champions.

In the immediate aftermath, during the ESPN studio coverage that night, the ESPN guys were mainly all over the Detroit fans and Ben Wallace.

Kegboy
03-09-2009, 08:29 PM
Did not know that. But it makes sense. Jeez, I'm gonna be sick to my stomach when Stern is inducted into the basketball HOF. It will be interesting to see who ended up ruining their respective pro sport more: Stern or Bud Selig.

To add insult to injury, you're probably too young to have heard my story about the season ticket holders lunch with Stern the spring before the brawl. Long story short, Stern answered a question about Artest by saying he was "such a great guy, such a caring individual", then after the brawl said he'd never even met Artest.

So, yeah, Stern's the anti-christ.

:tmyk:

Ransom
03-09-2009, 08:41 PM
I still wish more people would note that Wallace had made an uncalled foul on the previous end. Just to complete the sequence, the artest foul wasn't out of nowhere.

On a totally random note, I'm surprised and disappointed that I haven't found a Leroy Jenkins/Pacers-Pistons Brawl mash up. The visual of Artest running into the stands crying Leroy Jenkins!!! cracks me up.

pacersgroningen
03-09-2009, 09:18 PM
I still remember waking up the morning after and reading what happened. Did take me some time to find some footage as I wasn't that familiar with the internet back then. There are still some questions for me. For instance, where Detroit fans penalized in any way? The dude that threw the bottle and beer, what happened to him? Wasn't Ben Wallace's brother involved? Once again I'm not up to speed and would like to know what was that exactly.

I just dislike Stern a lot. I agree with suspending Artest for the entire season. Should've done the same for Jackson IMHO, but man, Wallace should've been gone for the season as well. As a home-team you are responsible for what happens. You have to control your fans. When this kind of stuff happens, everybody involved should be punished equally. Shut them out for the season, or not playing games at Detroit and give them a loss for every game. Tough on them, but that's what they deserved.

pizza guy
03-09-2009, 11:57 PM
I remember watching that game with an incredible sense of pride in our team. They hadn't just beaten the Pistons, they thumped the World Champions. As the final minute ticked down, it was a sort of natural high for me, almost like when the Colts beat the Pats to make the Super Bowl.

Then, Artest fouled Wallace. No big deal. Just Ronnie being Ronnie.

Then Big Ben comes back and tries to snap his head off at the Adam's Apple. The Pistons are all going nuts, trying to hold Wallace or fight anyone standing, and I'm watching it thinking, "Man, we didn't just win a game, we really got in their heads!" Artest lays on the scorer's table and I laugh because he's supposed to be the uncontrollable headcase, and because he's blatantly taunting a dejected team and crowd.

Things start to settle down, Wallace should be ejected, we'll finish the last :45 with some free throws and then dribble it out...right?

Then the cup.

Then the stands.

Then Jackson's long right arm takes the slowest swing at some guy that I've ever seen. That moment just....happened....in....slow....motion....

Artest is flayling, Fred Jones is bouncing around, Jermaine kneels to knock some guy's block off, Wallace is still yelling, Reggie is wondering what happened to the game he used to play, Croshere looks like a little kid who's lost his mommy in the mall.

The warm and fuzzy feeling is gone, but, there's some satisfaction still that Detroit's players and fans are simple thugs. The announcers and studio guys all agree. There's gotta be some kind of punishment for Detroit.

What?

Artest is out for the year?

Jackson and Jermaine for half the year?

Wallace got six games?

SIX GAMES!?

The Pacers got robbed of a Title on that night. Wallace, Stern, Jackson, Artest, the Dustpan. All to blame, probably in that order. Stole a World Championship from the best team Indiana had seen since 2000.


Oh yeah, and that LJ 4-point play is still the worst call I've ever seen. Absolutely terrible.

--pizza

PS: Let's get back to this year's team. You know, the one that's fighting for the playoffs instead of their foolish pride.

Haggard
03-10-2009, 12:02 AM
Stern answered a question about Artest by saying he was "such a great guy, such a caring individual", then after the brawl said he'd never even met Artest.



is that so... he lied to us...

http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/photo/1999/june/30/a_artest.jpg

Slick Pinkham
03-10-2009, 12:04 AM
I'd rather hit myself in the head with a ball peen hammer than revisit the brawl at all, with any perspective.

edit...

no, make that a claw hammer, with the claw end. in the eye...

Haggard
03-10-2009, 12:14 AM
I thnk that the brawl killed one of the better rivalries at that time in the NBA.

After coming off the conference finals the year before.. who can forget Prince's block (probably one of the best playoff series I've ever seen) The Pistons & Pacers had developed a great rivalry, Hard nose defence and great games.

Los Angeles
03-10-2009, 02:02 AM
I thnk that the brawl killed one of the better rivalries at that time in the NBA.

After coming off the conference finals the year before.. who can forget Prince's block (probably one of the best playoff series I've ever seen) The Pistons & Pacers had developed a great rivalry, Hard nose defence and great games.

It killed one of the better teams in the NBA.

Our losing record is our penance. And once it begins, you never know how long it will take to get out of it.

Haggard
03-10-2009, 02:28 AM
It killed one of the better teams in the NBA..

Damn right it did. no arguments there.


Our losing record is our penance. And once it begins, you never know how long it will take to get out of it.

yeah, lets hope its not too long. I see some signs in this roster that we may be on the way up.