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View Full Version : JOB "definitely back" next season.......



MagicRat
03-05-2009, 08:11 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20090305/SPORTS04/903050413/1088/SPORTS04

Among other things in the article......

O'Brien will return

Even though the Pacers' playoff drought could reach three years for the first time since 1987, O'Brien's job is not in jeopardy. Taking over in the early stages of a massive restructuring that took a hit when a knee injury shelved Dunleavy all but 18 games this year, O'Brien is 63-82 in two seasons with the Pacers.

"He's definitely back," Bird said.

Hicks
03-05-2009, 08:14 AM
Fire starter..... :-p :D

Eindar
03-05-2009, 08:16 AM
No point in firing him, and spending a couple million extra on a guy who won't make this team into a title contender, especially when you're losing money.

Good move by Bird and management.

Major Cold
03-05-2009, 08:20 AM
Let the moans begin...

I for one agree that next year we should have him back.

Think of this:
Ford is finally recovering from the the nagging injury.
Rasho seems to be more mobile maybe because Hibbert is playing more minutes.
Daniels has a lift to his shot that I have not seen and is playing outstanding defense.
Diener is finally producing.
Murphy is playing above what most people predicted.
Hibbert is giving things that others cannot.

Couple all of this with Granger and Dun returning next year. The players seem to be more aquaited with the system and each other. I expect them to make the playoffs next year. Granted they probaly won't be the contenders that some expect so quickly, but you cannot deny this team is improving. Before we had players that improved, now the team is improving, together. That is coaching folks, no matter how you slice it.

McKeyFan
03-05-2009, 08:59 AM
I can live with JOB. I think he brings a lot to the table.

If he plays our potential guys more next year--Rush, Roy, McRoberts, Unknown draft pick--then I'll like him better.

He sticks with his known entities too much. But, then, so did Rick Carlisle.

duke dynamite
03-05-2009, 09:01 AM
Cool.

xtacy
03-05-2009, 09:21 AM
man you guys love this guy!

another year of worthless basketball. thanks larry!

Unclebuck
03-05-2009, 09:24 AM
I have been considering starting a thread with the title - "is anyone ever going to give O'Brien some credit" He has kept this team together through the losing, through the injuries, through the tough losses - he's done a remarkable job. And yet very, very rarely does he even get a mention of doing something well. I've been trying to stay out of the whole O'Brien discussion - but he deserves a ton of credit and I think he's done a great coaching job to get this team to where it is right now. And look he has developed the rookies.

idioteque
03-05-2009, 09:29 AM
JOB is okay, I don't really have a problem with this. There are certainly things he could do better but there is no point investing in a higher profile coach right now.

For those who don't want JOB back next year- give me a viable alternative who would come to Indiana and whom we could afford.

duke dynamite
03-05-2009, 09:29 AM
I have been considering starting a thread with the title - "is anyone ever going to give O'Brien some credit" He has kept this team together through the losing, through the injuries, through the tough losses - he's done a remarkable job. And yet very, very rarely does he even get a mention of doing something well. I've been trying to stay out of the whole O'Brien discussion - but he deserves a ton of credit and I think he's done a great coaching job to get this team to where it is right now. And look he has developed the rookies.
O'Brien has done well with what he has. A while back this season I was a little early to jump the gun on Obie, but you can only do so much with the cards you are dealt.

Jim may have made some odd decisions with timeouts and rotations, but it is all a result of wanting to win. Developing our young guys had to take a back seat if not at an incrimental pace. Looking at the way injuries have played into account, these guys have really been given a good chance to show what they can do at an NBA level.

With that said, JOB has done a good job so far, given the sircumstances. Getting upset with the coach is just a result in what we've had out there this season. Not many people last season went so crazy on him.

Brad8888
03-05-2009, 09:37 AM
I no longer blame our coach for any of his questionable rotations, play calling, failure to manage game momentum with strategic timeouts (worse earlier in the season), or running our players into the ground by demanding a faster pace than our guys are physically capable of playing without suffering injuries (our pace of play has probably hastened the decline of Dunleavy with his known injury due to a higher intensity of physical stress on a more consistent basis than he would have experienced otherwise, and very likely has impacted Granger, Daniels, Ford, and Foster with all of the injuries they are dealing with / playing through).

Plainly, TPTB are fully supportive of this type of play and coaching style. Admittedly, we are competing with the elite teams at a far higher level than we would through solid fundamental play because the Pacers' style is not only confusing to our own players at times, it is also very disruptive and pressure inducing to our opponents, who get caught up in the flow of the game and reduces their own coaching staff's effectiveness due to their difficulty in communicating with their own players in a faster paced environment.

Now, the buck stops with Bird, and more importantly, the now more hands on Simon family. They are the professionals. They are supposed to know more than any of us about this business. They now need prove it to all of us who have doubted them and produce not only a competitive team that plays teams close at a nearly historic rate per number of games played, but a team that actually wins regardless of the style of play.

As I believe Al Davis of the Raiders used to say, "Just win, baby."

Justin Tyme
03-05-2009, 09:42 AM
Let the moans begin...

I for one agree that next year we should have him back.

Think of this:
Ford is finally recovering from the the nagging injury.
Rasho seems to be more mobile maybe because Hibbert is playing more minutes.
Daniels has a lift to his shot that I have not seen and is playing outstanding defense.
Diener is finally producing.
Murphy is playing above what most people predicted.
Hibbert is giving things that others cannot.

Couple all of this with Granger and Dun returning next year. The players seem to be more aquaited with the system and each other. I expect them to make the playoffs next year. Granted they probaly won't be the contenders that some expect so quickly, but you cannot deny this team is improving. Before we had players that improved, now the team is improving, together. That is coaching folks, no matter how you slice it.


Moan moan, but I already knew and had previously stated this would happen. The Simons aren't going to pay for another coach while still paying O'Brien's salary, not to mention it would put egg all over Bird's face for his "over the phone hiring." I have said in the past O'Brien won't be here after his contract expires, and I firmly believe it.

You point out Rasho and Daniels as if you believe both are going to be back next year, and neither in all probability will be back. You never mentioned Jack, so he hasn't done anything to help his game or the Pacers???

The way many of the players are currently playing is exactly why I have stated numerous times the talent on this team is better than last year. IMO, if this team had had a coach who emphasized playing "D" this team would be a 6th or so seed right now and not a team out of the playoffs looking/hoping to get in the playoffs. The Pacers have given up 100 or more points in 33 of their losses and 13 times in their wins for a total of 46 times out of the 64 games they have played. Wow, that means 18 games or approximately 3 out of every 4 games they give up 100 or more points to their opponents. O'Brien is too stubborn and inflexible for it to be any different next year. What you see now is what you'll get next year as well. WHOOPIE, I can hardly wait!

Unclebuck
03-05-2009, 09:47 AM
Moan moan, but I already knew and had previously stated this would happen. The Simons aren't going to pay for another coach while still paying O'Brien's salary, not to mention it would put egg all over Bird's face for his "over the phone hiring." I have said in the past O'Brien won't be here after his contract expires, and I firmly believe it.

You point out Rasho and Daniels as if you believe both are going to be back next year, and neither in all probability will be back. You never mentioned Jack, so he hasn't done anything to help his game or the Pacers???

The way many of the players are currently playing is exactly why I have stated numerous times the talent on this team is better than last year. IMO, if this team had had a coach who emphasized playing "D" this team would be a 6th or so seed right now and not a team out of the playoffs looking/hoping to get in the playoffs. The Pacers have given up 100 or more points in 33 of their losses and 13 times in their wins for a total of 46 times out of the 64 games they have played. Wow, that means 18 games or approximately 3 out of every 4 games they give up 100 or more points to their opponents. O'Brien is too stubborn and inflexible for it to be any different next year. What you see now is what you'll get next year as well. WHOOPIE, I can hardly wait!

OK, to summarize your post. When the team wins the players get all the credit, and when the team loses, it is the coaches fault.

Pacers defense really since the allstar break has gotten much better - the effort is better, they are making fewer mental mistakes - I think it is quite noticeable

Eindar
03-05-2009, 09:51 AM
I no longer blame our coach for any of his questionable rotations, play calling, failure to manage game momentum with strategic timeouts (worse earlier in the season), or running our players into the ground by demanding a faster pace than our guys are physically capable of playing without suffering injuries (our pace of play has probably hastened the decline of Dunleavy with his known injury due to a higher intensity of physical stress on a more consistent basis than he would have experienced otherwise, and very likely has impacted Granger, Daniels, Ford, and Foster with all of the injuries they are dealing with / playing through).

Plainly, TPTB are fully supportive of this type of play and coaching style. Admittedly, we are competing with the elite teams at a far higher level than we would through solid fundamental play because the Pacers' style is not only confusing to our own players at times, it is also very disruptive and pressure inducing to our opponents, who get caught up in the flow of the game and reduces their own coaching staff's effectiveness due to their difficulty in communicating with their own players in a faster paced environment.

Now, the buck stops with Bird, and more importantly, the now more hands on Simon family. They are the professionals. They are supposed to know more than any of us about this business. They now need prove it to all of us who have doubted them and produce not only a competitive team that plays teams close at a nearly historic rate per number of games played, but a team that actually wins regardless of the style of play.

As I believe Al Davis of the Raiders used to say, "Just win, baby."

Yes, because clearly Dunleavy plays at a faster pace under O'Brien than he did under Don Nelson in Golden State...

And clearly, Foster has never had any injury problems with his back prior JOB riding into town.

And also, Ford and Marquis were Iron Men prior to Jim coming in with his nefarious schemes to destroy all our players.

ABADays
03-05-2009, 09:56 AM
Well, for one thing, it ensures JOB will be a sub-.500 coach after next season.

nerveghost
03-05-2009, 09:58 AM
I think JOB is getting the max out of what he has. I'll give him some credit. NBA is a players league. Doc Rivers was laughed at in Boston by fans, and then he got some players and won a championship.

duke dynamite
03-05-2009, 09:59 AM
Yes, because clearly Dunleavy plays at a faster pace under O'Brien than he did under Don Nelson in Golden State...

And clearly, Foster has never had any injury problems with his back prior JOB riding into town.

And also, Ford and Marquis were Iron Men prior to Jim coming in with his nefarious schemes to destroy all our players.
I hope you are being sarcastic...

Justin Tyme
03-05-2009, 10:00 AM
I have been considering starting a thread with the title - "is anyone ever going to give O'Brien some credit" He has kept this team together through the losing, through the injuries, through the tough losses - he's done a remarkable job. And yet very, very rarely does he even get a mention of doing something well. I've been trying to stay out of the whole O'Brien discussion - but he deserves a ton of credit and I think he's done a great coaching job to get this team to where it is right now. And look he has developed the rookies.




I consider McBob a rookie since he only played in 8 games with Portland last year, so O'Brien has helped McBob just how? By not playing him?

Unclebuck
03-05-2009, 10:05 AM
I consider McBob a rookie since he only played in 8 games with Portland last year, so O'Brien has helped McBob just how? By not playing him?

How many rookies can he play - I think playing and developing two is quite enough. McBob was a throw-in - he might someday be a rotation player, nothing more. He needs to improve his game in the summers. In other words he just isn't that good to waste a lot of time on right now

duke dynamite
03-05-2009, 10:07 AM
I consider McBob a rookie since he only played in 8 games with Portland last year, so O'Brien has helped McBob just how? By not playing him?


How many rookies can he play - I think playing and developing two is quite enough. McBob was a throw-in - he might someday be a rotation player, nothing more. He needs to improve his game in the summers. In other words he just isn't that good to waste a lot of time on right now
This is a good discussion for the thread about McRoberts I just made.

You should copy and paste what you just said in there, Buck.

lol

d_c
03-05-2009, 10:12 AM
How many rookies can he play - I think playing and developing two is quite enough. McBob was a throw-in - he might someday be a rotation player, nothing more. He needs to improve his game in the summers. In other words he just isn't that good to waste a lot of time on right now

Absolutely. The team is in the middle of a playoff run and playing well. It's no time to worry about how to squeeze in minutes for a former 2nd round pick who was basically a trade throw in and spent last year in the D League.

There may be a time to worry about that in the future, but for crying out loud, right now is absolutely not that time.

Anthem
03-05-2009, 10:30 AM
Pacers defense really since the allstar break has gotten much better - the effort is better, they are making fewer mental mistakes - I think it is quite noticeable
I'm surprised nobody has responded to this, but it's very true. I can't figure it out, actually... did the guys finally get the system? Has the system changed? What's different?

Regardless, I think we can all agree that we'd be solidly in the playoffs if we'd been playing defense like this all year.

BPump33
03-05-2009, 10:42 AM
Regardless, I think we can all agree that we'd be solidly in the playoffs if we'd been playing defense like this all year.

Absolutely. I'm definitely optimistic heading into next year, although have in no way given up hope on this season.

Justin Tyme
03-05-2009, 10:42 AM
OK, to summarize your post. When the team wins the players get all the credit, and when the team loses, it is the coaches fault.

Pacers defense really since the allstar break has gotten much better - the effort is better, they are making fewer mental mistakes - I think it is quite noticeable


Your summary is faulty. I never said that at all.


Let me summarize for you what I said.

1) I said I knew O'Brien would be back next year as coach.

2) I made a comment about Rasho, Daniels, and Jack.

3) I stated the Pacers have better talent this year than last.

4) I stated that the Pacers have given up 100 or more points 46 times this season. That if Pacers had a coach that emphasized "D" the Pacers would be currently in the playoffs and not looking in.

5) I stated what you see this year is what you'll see next year in regards to the system and coach.


Now, no where did I say the players get the credit for wins, now did I?

I'll meet you have half way. I'll give O'Brien credit for the 27 wins or 2 out of every 5 games, now will you give O'Brien the credit for the 37 losses that is 3 out of 5 games? I didn't think so.

Is this a case, like you posted last week, where you are just standing up for O'Brien b/c you don't like reading negative posts against O'Brien?

Have you seen where I have said anything negative about O'Brien about time outs, substuitions, playing time for Hibbert or Rush since early in the season? No, my big issue with O'Brien is lack of "D" in his system, and his stubborness and inflexibilty to change. Well that's not true. I have been negative about his ugly ties, and last night that shirt and tie combo was horrendous.

You refuse to see or say when he is/does wrong, and I won't overlook his fault of not emhasizing and playing "D". And as far as the "D" looking better since the AS break, it had no where to go but to get better. It sure couldn't have gotten worse. Now was that due to his coaching or the players putting forth more effort?

sloopjohnb
03-05-2009, 10:47 AM
Considering the circumstances, I was half-expecting something like this. I have been very skeptical of O'Brien, especially considering the Pacers defense. But with the economic situation the Pacers are in, they're best interest is to see what can happen going into next year.

But if they get off to a bad start next year, I feel like Bird will finally lose his patience.

Justin Tyme
03-05-2009, 10:55 AM
How many rookies can he play - I think playing and developing two is quite enough. McBob was a throw-in - he might someday be a rotation player, nothing more. He needs to improve his game in the summers. In other words he just isn't that good to waste a lot of time on right now


AND how do you know this? Just b/c he isn't given any PT by O'Brien. Just remember Brown wasn't a fan of Jalen, but under Bird he blossomed.

As far as developing more than 2 rookies, I believe Memphis has 3 starting with Conley in his 2nd year. My feeling is that Memphis is going to have a really nice team in the very near future.

Shade
03-05-2009, 10:57 AM
I never expected JOB to get fired. The key is whether he is preemptively extended beyond next season.

ChicagoJ
03-05-2009, 11:13 AM
I have been considering starting a thread with the title - "is anyone ever going to give O'Brien some credit" He has kept this team together through the losing, through the injuries, through the tough losses - he's done a remarkable job. And yet very, very rarely does he even get a mention of doing something well. I've been trying to stay out of the whole O'Brien discussion - but he deserves a ton of credit and I think he's done a great coaching job to get this team to where it is right now. And look he has developed the rookies.

I'll give him credit, and there are things he does that drive me crazy (the three ball, in particular and other game strategy stuff) but the team has improved over the course of the season in spite of adversity - the reality that they aren't very good in the first place, injuries to Dunn and Danny, a need to work the young guys into the rotation because our vets aren't good enough to keep them glued to the bench.

As we get to the last 20 games, Hibbert and Rush are contributing ... maybe not as much as I'd like but they are contributing ... and improving.

That was always how I was going to measure the results of this season.

I think O'Brien brings a number of things to the table that are not readily apparent. Player development in terms of fundamentals, getting adjusted to the NBA/ lifestyle, helping the young players learn from their mistakes, solid practices, etc. I think he's a good coach for a team with younger players. His gameplan and x's and o's drive me crazy, of course. In many ways, he and Carlisle are polar opposites - I never complained about Carlisle's games plans as they were brilliant, but he undermined that with his other shortcomings.

Unclebuck
03-05-2009, 11:20 AM
Your summary is faulty. I never said that at all.


Let me summarize for you what I said.

1) I said I knew O'Brien would be back next year as coach.

2) I made a comment about Rasho, Daniels, and Jack.

3) I stated the Pacers have better talent this year than last.

4) I stated that the Pacers have given up 100 or more points 46 times this season. That if Pacers had a coach that emphasized "D" the Pacers would be currently in the playoffs and not looking in.

5) I stated what you see this year is what you'll see next year in regards to the system and coach.


Now, no where did I say the players get the credit for wins, now did I?

I'll meet you have half way. I'll give O'Brien credit for the 27 wins or 2 out of every 5 games, now will you give O'Brien the credit for the 37 losses that is 3 out of 5 games? I didn't think so.

Is this a case, like you posted last week, where you are just standing up for O'Brien b/c you don't like reading negative posts against O'Brien?

Have you seen where I have said anything negative about O'Brien about time outs, substuitions, playing time for Hibbert or Rush since early in the season? No, my big issue with O'Brien is lack of "D" in his system, and his stubborness and inflexibilty to change. Well that's not true. I have been negative about his ugly ties, and last night that shirt and tie combo was horrendous.

You refuse to see or say when he is/does wrong, and I won't overlook his fault of not emhasizing and playing "D". And as far as the "D" looking better since the AS break, it had no where to go but to get better. It sure couldn't have gotten worse. Now was that due to his coaching or the players putting forth more effort?

I wish the defense was better - but I think it is about as good as it can be with the personnel and with the style of offense we are playing (not the style I would pick).

Is this a case, like you posted last week, where you are just standing up for O'Brien b/c you don't like reading negative posts against O'Brien?
I want to address this. To answer your question. No - it isn't. This thread is more of an analytical dicussion of JOB as opposed to the postgame or game thread where it is knee jerk about individual decisions the coach has made.

I'm more than willing to criticize the coach - as I have done in this thread. But overall I think he's done a very good job with this team. Without their two best players they are playing remarkably well and for that I give the coach a lot of credit mainly for keeping this team together and playing as a team.

as to why the defense is better - I see more effort but I also see more trust, more togetherness and much better grasp of the system - which I don't believe has changed at all since earlier this season. I think having Ford, Jack and Daniels on the floor at the same time has improved the defense.

Oh and I think Hibbert has improved so much, it is really hard to quantify - but he is soo much better than earlier in the season

pacergod2
03-05-2009, 11:36 AM
I'll give him credit, and there are things he does that drive me crazy (the three ball, in particular and other game strategy stuff) but the team has improved over the course of the season in spite of adversity - the reality that they aren't very good in the first place, injuries to Dunn and Danny, a need to work the young guys into the rotation because our vets aren't good enough to keep them glued to the bench.

As we get to the last 20 games, Hibbert and Rush are contributing ... maybe not as much as I'd like but they are contributing ... and improving.

That was always how I was going to measure the results of this season.

I think O'Brien brings a number of things to the table that are not readily apparent. Player development in terms of fundamentals, getting adjusted to the NBA/ lifestyle, helping the young players learn from their mistakes, solid practices, etc. I think he's a good coach for a team with younger players. His gameplan and x's and o's drive me crazy, of course. In many ways, he and Carlisle are polar opposites - I never complained about Carlisle's games plans as they were brilliant, but he undermined that with his other shortcomings.

J.... you hit the nail on the head my man. I couldn't agree with you more. The thing that really makes me happy about the FO/Coaching is that they are on the same page. Larry is the medium through which Morway and O'Brien move this team forward. O'Brien was a perfect coach for this team when he was hired. He is not a high profile coach who will command Larry Brown money. But he is a very patient coach who is WILLING to TEACH the game to younger players. That is what he has done. The perfect example is bringing in a shooting coach to specifically work with a few players. He is helping teach them.

O'Brien does run a defense that is very difficult to grasp and reQuires ultimate team work. It can be a successful defense. IMO, our defense has gotten better because Daniels is healthy. We have seen Daniels really take to the system well. His help side defense has been terrific. When one player truly begins to understand this type of defense it helps everybody else out. I think the added minutes for Rush has really contributed to our total defense as well. Daniels and Rush don't need as significant help defense when out there. I think when those two are out there.... we have the "right personnel" on defense. And actually Daniels has really put it all together on the offensive end. Something he has struggled to do up to this point in his career. He finally is healthy AND getting the minutes AND touches to truly work out his kinks offensively. I would love to see Daniels and Granger with Rush getting all the minutes on the wing off the bench here in the next week or two. That is a much better rotation now than it was to start the year. I love Dunleavy, but we are better off when he plays limited minutes.

I think Hibbert has done a good job defensively as well. He is a big SOB. He is a force down low that other teams do take into consideration. He will only get better. He can block a shot which is something that can't be said about our other bigs. Yes, he fouls a lot, but it keeps the other team from scoring. Its the point that he isn't letting anybody score when he is in there unless it is from the foul line. I like that mentality. I will probably get lambasted for that but as a coach, that is a mentality I would love out of my players. Thanks Hibby, keep it up and just get a little smarter about your fouls though. :D:D:D

PaceBalls
03-05-2009, 12:01 PM
I'm more than willing to criticize the coach - as I have done in this thread. But overall I think he's done a very good job with this team. Without their two best players they are playing remarkably well and for that I give the coach a lot of credit mainly for keeping this team together and playing as a team.


He does deserve alot of credit for this. Jim really promotes team play and has everyone buying into the idea that team accomplishment > individual accomplishment. In fact this team is playing much better since our "two best players" have been out. I think there is a good reason for that, and Jim excells in that area.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2009, 12:08 PM
What's different?


Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy out. Marquis Daniels and Brandon Rush in.

RamBo_Lamar
03-05-2009, 12:10 PM
JOB may not be an "elite" coach of mystical proportions, but he is a good man who
has done much to help restore a sense of integrity and professionalism to a team
sorely in need of both.

He's a credit to both the team and the community, and I for one am glad he will be
returning.

PS: Plus he is 100000 times better of an NBA coach than anyone who might get on
here with the audacity to go continually posting slams against him.

Major Cold
03-05-2009, 12:36 PM
Moan moan, but I already knew and had previously stated this would happen. The Simons aren't going to pay for another coach while still paying O'Brien's salary, not to mention it would put egg all over Bird's face for his "over the phone hiring." I have said in the past O'Brien won't be here after his contract expires, and I firmly believe it.

You point out Rasho and Daniels as if you believe both are going to be back next year, and neither in all probability will be back. You never mentioned Jack, so he hasn't done anything to help his game or the Pacers???

The way many of the players are currently playing is exactly why I have stated numerous times the talent on this team is better than last year. IMO, if this team had had a coach who emphasized playing "D" this team would be a 6th or so seed right now and not a team out of the playoffs looking/hoping to get in the playoffs. The Pacers have given up 100 or more points in 33 of their losses and 13 times in their wins for a total of 46 times out of the 64 games they have played. Wow, that means 18 games or approximately 3 out of every 4 games they give up 100 or more points to their opponents. O'Brien is too stubborn and inflexible for it to be any different next year. What you see now is what you'll get next year as well. WHOOPIE, I can hardly wait!


I realize we won't be able to sign all of our players. The fact that you nitpicked my post to death underlines a greater tendency to your posting. The fact that you rip on JOB for, what you claim to know as fact, not emphasizing defense and then do not take in account of player familiarity and growth in the equation of why the defense is bad, baffles me.

To claim that the entirety of the season is a result of coaching is claiming that the players we have are talented and perfect in their talent and execution of a "flawed" system.

Major Cold
03-05-2009, 12:40 PM
But if they get off to a bad start next year, I feel like Bird will finally lose his patience.
I said this in November about next season. And aside from drastic player changes I would assume this to be spot on still.

Major Cold
03-05-2009, 12:43 PM
I'll give him credit, and there are things he does that drive me crazy (the three ball, in particular and other game strategy stuff) but the team has improved over the course of the season in spite of adversity - the reality that they aren't very good in the first place, injuries to Dunn and Danny, a need to work the young guys into the rotation because our vets aren't good enough to keep them glued to the bench.

As we get to the last 20 games, Hibbert and Rush are contributing ... maybe not as much as I'd like but they are contributing ... and improving.

That was always how I was going to measure the results of this season.

I think O'Brien brings a number of things to the table that are not readily apparent. Player development in terms of fundamentals, getting adjusted to the NBA/ lifestyle, helping the young players learn from their mistakes, solid practices, etc. I think he's a good coach for a team with younger players. His gameplan and x's and o's drive me crazy, of course. In many ways, he and Carlisle are polar opposites - I never complained about Carlisle's games plans as they were brilliant, but he undermined that with his other shortcomings.


This is an execellent way of communicating you likes and dislikes with the coach. Posting positives and negatives, while looking at the bigger picture. Excellent post.

vnzla81
03-05-2009, 12:44 PM
I wanna see JOB dealing with two new rookies and the second year players in Roy and Rush. I see Danny and the older players playing 40min a piece.............nice:rolleyes:

Speed
03-05-2009, 12:54 PM
I've ripped on what I called his gimmicky matchup zone, but when it's clicking and guys are playing together, it really presents problems. I'm shocked how it looks now vs 2 months ago.

I completely agree with Js post. I may not agree with his schemes or philosphy, but I like his no nonsense approach.

I had and still have my doubts, especially when they were losing AND the young guys weren't playing. I still say that was a crime, but I've seen marked improvement in Roy over the year.

I think Brush's stagnation (imho) is more about him getting his mojo back, develop a swagger, not playing afraid, a mindset and hopefully will be remedied this summer. So I don't blame Obie for that at this point.

Still, I have to say I have been completely down on him in the recent past (like everytime in the last two years there hasn't been ONE rebounder there to at least attempt an offensive rebound for one example), but it seems like the team has improved and so with it has my impression of Obie.

Jonathan
03-05-2009, 01:11 PM
YES, I am very happy JOB is back for his final contract year. This sets the tone for next year. Tinsley ? is answered, Expectations (playoffs or bust-JOB could get the axe @ mid season if not playing well) , Team will not be learning a new system so they get time to gel as a unit.

duke dynamite
03-05-2009, 01:24 PM
Going along with what you say, Jonathan, it makes me wonder what kind of a coach that Lester Conner can be.

I'm still trying to figure out what the extra dots mean at the end of this thread title.

Justin Tyme
03-05-2009, 01:40 PM
I realize we won't be able to sign all of our players. The fact that you nitpicked my post to death underlines a greater tendency to your posting. The fact that you rip on JOB for, what you claim to know as fact, not emphasizing defense and then do not take in account of player familiarity and growth in the equation of why the defense is bad, baffles me.

To claim that the entirety of the season is a result of coaching is claiming that the players we have are talented and perfect in their talent and execution of a "flawed" system.



If indeed you "realized" this, then why post it as you didn't realize it?

You are the one that said let the moaning begin. If you don't want to hear someone elses view/opinion, then don't invite a response. This is a forum to discuss views and opinions... even ones held different than yours. If you disagree with my view/opinions that's just fine. I have never asked you nor anyone else to agree with my views/opinions. At the sametime I have the right to disagree with your or anyone elses view/opinions. It's a 2 way street.

Just in case you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one on this board who feels O'Brien's system is "flawed." I guess that makes us all wrong!

The talent is better this year than last year, but I NEVER said it was "perfect"... you said that. Nor did I say the "entirety" of the season is the result of the coaching, again you did. BUT in my view/opinion it is a major factor. If you are going to quote me, please at least quote/say what I posted not what I didn't post. I'd appreciate it.

My post never had the intent to nitpick you as you seem to feel, so as a fellow Pacer fan please have a pleasant day.:)

Naptown_Seth
03-05-2009, 01:43 PM
No surprise on his return

1) Major injury

2) Improvement last year with Dun, this year with Troy and Danny

3) Entertainment value of play

4) Big wins against top teams

5) Rebuilding, low expectations


But honestly I think we are in Isiah-land. In year 2 Isiah was doing great just to hold it together, but underneath that the reality was he still had plenty of talent on the roster that we'd assumed was toast when Jax, Dale and Rik left. We didn't realize the impact of JO, good Tins, Ron or Brad. So at the end of year 2 it was like he was leading this great turnaround just to keep them in the playoffs.

Year 3 made it even worse, the team was great and it looked like he was a genius. Despite that I know many of us had questions, but results trumped opinions.

And then....

The truth ended up being that even without an all-star center the roster was good enough to win 61 games. We finally had a real measure of just how good Isiah had or had not been.


JOB goes into this same spot. He's either going to take them to over .500 and the playoffs next year or he's done. I worry that it's going to take that full 3rd year to reach that decision, but at the same time I'll have to admit he's great if he gets the job done and the team really wins some games next year.

Right now we just don't really know what the right expectation level is for this roster. Lots of change, bunch of guys who haven't really won much elsewhere, especially the two highest paid guys. Tons of youth in key spots. Quis being unhealthy so often. We don't have a good W-L litmus test for this roster.

So fair is fair. JOB will either get it done next year and many of you will get the appropriate apology, at least from me, or he'll continue to spin the wheels or get worse and for that I'll ask the defense team to call it quits and admit defeat. Being graded on the merits of your own ability and effort - JOB couldn't ask for more.

GrangerRanger
03-05-2009, 01:47 PM
KILL ME NOW!

Hopefully it means in a office role. I don't want this guy anywhere near the bench.

croz24
03-05-2009, 01:49 PM
why shouldn't he be back? he's taken one of the least talented teams in the league, to within shouting distance of the playoffs, and doing this without the teams supposed two best players...

Naptown_Seth
03-05-2009, 01:53 PM
I have been considering starting a thread with the title - "is anyone ever going to give Isiah some credit" He has kept this team together through the losing, through the injuries, through the tough losses - he's done a remarkable job. And yet very, very rarely does he even get a mention of doing something well. I've been trying to stay out of the whole Isiah discussion - but he deserves a ton of credit and I think he's done a great coaching job to get this team to where it is right now. And look he has developed the rookies.Tinsley STARTED for Isiah, all year. He developed the rookie, he played the virtual rookie JO plenty and saw his game go huge.

I'm just saying Buck, you tell me how your statement couldn't apply to Isiah circa summer 3 going into his 3rd year. Not only that but consider the fact that he could have been given a huge extension when the team hit the AS break leading the pack with JO, Brad and Isiah all representing the team in the AS game.

Years later and a 2nd chance with NY and we see that maybe his players were carrying him more than he was a great coach.

So when are YOU going to give credit to TJ, Jack, Danny, Roy, Rush, Quis, Troy, Foster, et al for getting it done? See, this is the fair question here. It's not the team's performance, it's who is that attributable too.

I'm not saying it's not all him, but I am saying that it might not be him. We can't 100% assume it's been JOB fixing things any more than hurting things. I mean is Danny the kind of player that needed JOB to put a foot in his rear to get better, or was that happening regardless?

Is Quis better because of JOB or health? Troy? Are TJ and Jack doing things they didn't already do? How much of the change in play is due to the moves by Bird vs coaching?

Heck, just how much of what you saw last year is the same as this year, given the fact that JOB is one of the few constants there.


As for "where they are now", just where are they? A 35 win team. Wow, looks like they made it. Um, didn't the team FIRE A COACH for doing that ONE FREAKING TIME??? Sure you've given us our best regular season, sure you held a team together that was destroyed 5 times worse by the brawl than the JOB team will be by a Dun injury, but last year after the GS trade you went from a .500 team to a 35 win team, so out the door you go.

But for JOB it's a pass? Let's just be consistant, that's what I'm saying. 35 wins we could have had by keeping Rick. You fire Rick for JOB you better IMPROVE. They haven't.

You're just going with some "they would have won 25 games without JOB" mentality that I don't buy into. I don't think the talent mixture is nearly that bad and I consider TJ/Roy/Rasho a HUGE talent improvement over JO and his injuries. And yet where are the wins for that? Because Dun was hurt? Please. Try holding it together with Ron-Ron and Jack going nuts and Tinsley/AJ as your PGs every single year.

Rick would have crapped himself to have PG play at the TJ/Jack level without the headaches that came with Tinsley.

I don't even need Rick to still be the coach. I just need the coaching change to make a flipping difference. Last year maybe, but this year the talent is improved and the wins aren't.

Anthem
03-05-2009, 01:53 PM
Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy out. Marquis Daniels and Brandon Rush in.
Teams were already putting up 120ppg against us when Dun came back, so it's not Dun.

I have a hard time believing any one player, even if they were absolutely terrible (which I don't think Danny is) could have the effect on the defense that we're seeing. It has to be more than that.

Unclebuck
03-05-2009, 02:05 PM
Seth, I am not going to get into the Isiah debate right now - I've tried to block those years out. But he lost the team in his third season and for that reason alone - he needed to be replaced. Plus that was an excellent and very talented team - IMO the most talented NBA Pacers team, so you needed a good coach to get the most out of the team (see 61 wins the next season, minus Brad Miller = less talent) But yeah, I thought Isiah was a bad coach

OakMoses
03-05-2009, 02:27 PM
So fair is fair. JOB will either get it done next year and many of you will get the appropriate apology, at least from me, or he'll continue to spin the wheels or get worse and for that I'll ask the defense team to call it quits and admit defeat. Being graded on the merits of your own ability and effort - JOB couldn't ask for more.

This is exactly right. I'm hoping that Bird's in the same place that you are as far as O'Brien's concerned. He's got another year to prove himself.

Here's what I see as a reasonable scenario: There are minimal roster changes over the summer, just the obvious subtractions/additions that we're all pretty much resigned to at this point (Rasho & 'Quis gone, Jack back, young player who deserves back-up minutes obtained via draft).
At this point what I'm going to need to see is the team start the season playing closer to the level we're playing at now. Once these guys know what JOB expects of them and they know how to play with their fellow players, we'll truly be able to evaluate this system. I think playoffs is a very reasonable expectation for this team next season, and if we don't make it, I won't be sad to see O'Brien go.

ChicagoJ
03-05-2009, 02:31 PM
Isiah was overwhelmed as a game coach, but did a lot of nice player-development things. He made plenty of mistakes and needed to be fired much sooner than he was. But that 61-win team doesn't happen if Isiah doesn't develop JO, Tinsley, and even Foster into guys ready to start and make major contributions.

And years later, did Isiah "loose" them or did Ron Artest's looniness, plus a variety of offcourt tragedies "steal" them away from him?

To hear everybody describe them now, its a wonder that any coach ever had positive influence over that merry band of scalawags.

Far be it for me to defend Isiah... we've had three very flawed coaches over this decade trying thier best to deal with flawed rosters.

Since86
03-05-2009, 02:52 PM
To hear everybody describe them now, its a wonder that any coach ever had positive influence over that merry band of scalawags.

I'm going to copy this part of your post, and keep it for a rainy day when you start harping about how bad RC was at interacting with the players while here.

That is all, no more need for discussion.:p

ChicagoJ
03-05-2009, 04:06 PM
Okay. Just make sure you keep the next paragraph on hand as well.

grace
03-05-2009, 04:22 PM
I never expected JOB to get fired. The key is whether he is preemptively extended beyond next season.

I think once upon a time Larry said something about coaches shouldn't be with the same team for more than 3 years. He didn't stick to it with Rick, maybe he will with JOB.

Since86
03-05-2009, 04:32 PM
Never. :devil:

Justin Tyme
03-05-2009, 04:47 PM
We all realize there are going to be players presently on this roster that won't be here next year. I'm not sure how much Dun will really be contributing next season. I'm just don't see this team next year having the talent nor depth O'Brien has this year. So can the core of Granger, Murphy, Foster, Dunleavy, Hibbert, Ford, Rush, Diener, and I say Jack with a couple of rookies and a few 11-15 type players really produce enough next year to make the playoffs next year? Can Rush replace Daniels with the season Quis has had this year? Will Granger and Murphy have the same type seasons next year as this season?

My fear is that it will be a repeat of this season, and O'Brien will be given an extension for little success and improvement. This is the exact reason I don't want Bird to make a decision with an extension to O'Brien like he did with Foster until after the end of next season. I feel that's only prudent and fair.

Who knows over the summer maybe O'Brien decides to change his system and play "D" next year and will deserve an extension. Wake up Justin wake up!

ABADays
03-05-2009, 05:54 PM
why shouldn't he be back? he's taken one of the least talented teams in the league, to within shouting distance of the playoffs, and doing this without the teams supposed two best players...

I just detest playoff teams with losing records. Mediocrity at its best.

Dece
03-05-2009, 06:10 PM
I honestly have 0 desire to see us in the playoffs if we are sub .500. I don't believe it's possible we'll be over .500, so really, I just see no merit in it.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2009, 06:27 PM
What is the difference in being a .500 team in the 8th seed and having 39 wins and having the 8th seed? I don't get it.

McKeyFan
03-05-2009, 09:35 PM
JOB may not be an "elite" coach of mystical proportions, but he is a good man who
has done much to help restore a sense of integrity and professionalism to a team
sorely in need of both.


I'll second that. And it's similar to what Jay said.

tonythetiger
03-05-2009, 10:28 PM
McRoberts does not even belong being mentioned in the same sentence as Roy and Rush. Also, player development does not only involve playing in games.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2009, 10:56 PM
McRoberts does not even belong being mentioned in the same sentence as Roy and Rush. Also, player development does not only involve playing in games.

What is your reasoning?

LoneGranger33
03-05-2009, 10:57 PM
I'm not an O'Brien fan, but the one thing this team doesn't need is less continuity.

croz24
03-05-2009, 11:15 PM
I just detest playoff teams with losing records. Mediocrity at its best.

as do i, but i wouldn't blame the pacers season this year on job. i don't think job is a championship winning coach, but i'm not going to call him a bad coach. the pacers have been very competitive this year win or lose with a very untalented team.

Kemo
03-06-2009, 12:04 AM
with a very untalented team.


UNTALENTED MY A$$ !!! ... :rolleyes::mad:


:box:

I am so sick and tired of the few people on here who keeps saying how untalented we are, and constantly ragging on players in almost EVERY SINGLE THREAD ...

It is getting rather sickening..
Healthy discussion and debate is one thing... But the constant negativity around here sometimes, as well as the constant calling for different heads to roll .. is getting rather tiresome..
.

Anthem
03-06-2009, 12:25 AM
UNTALENTED MY A$$ !!! ... :rolleyes::mad:
Was it you that yelled at everyone who said we wouldn't get homecourt advantage in the first round?

Kemo
03-06-2009, 12:41 AM
nah wasnt me

Mourning
03-06-2009, 01:34 AM
Hurray :unimpress

croz24
03-06-2009, 10:56 AM
UNTALENTED MY A$$ !!! ... :rolleyes::mad:


:box:

I am so sick and tired of the few people on here who keeps saying how untalented we are, and constantly ragging on players in almost EVERY SINGLE THREAD ...

It is getting rather sickening..
Healthy discussion and debate is one thing... But the constant negativity around here sometimes, as well as the constant calling for different heads to roll .. is getting rather tiresome..
.

i've not ragged on any one player in quite a while, but what do you constitute an untalented team as being? one with only 25 wins at this point in the season? the pacers are full of cast-offs from other team with the exception of a couple of players. they do seem to play fairly well as a group, but face it, we are 11 games below .500. if this is a talented team, then not only does job need to go, bird needs to go as well.

Midcoasted
03-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I have been considering starting a thread with the title - "is anyone ever going to give O'Brien some credit" He has kept this team together through the losing, through the injuries, through the tough losses - he's done a remarkable job. And yet very, very rarely does he even get a mention of doing something well. I've been trying to stay out of the whole O'Brien discussion - but he deserves a ton of credit and I think he's done a great coaching job to get this team to where it is right now. And look he has developed the rookies.

I 100% agree. O'Brien is the man. After the Celtics and Portland games, I thought to myself what a great coach we have. He is passionate, he has pretty much had us in position to win almost every game at the end, and he just has our team playing a million times better and more entertaining than Carlisle did. He gets so much more out of his players. For the first time in forever we can actually shoot as a team at high percentages.

The ONLY beef I have with the guy is being like Carlisle with "shelving the unkowns." Maybe he has heard my calls, because he is actually playing Hibbert and Rush more. I would just like to see Hibbert in at the end of games and McRoberts getting Rasho's minutes. Rasho is gone next year anyways and I think McRoberts brings more to the table even though I am satisfied with Rasho's play lately. McRoberts is our fastest most athletic big man and he fits JOBs system so well. I just don't get why he is in the dumps not playing and why Hibbert isn't in at the end of games. I think Rush will come along but he needs more time and I'm comfortable with the minutes he gets know. If he goes back in the doghouse when Granger returns I'll worry.

Behind Murphy, Hibbert and McRoberts are our best options in the post now and in the future. I think Foster should play more than Rasho but neither justify not giving McRoberts minutes. I think O'brien's on the inside looking out and we're on the outside looking in. He has a certain type of "tunnel vision" when it comes to certain players and that is his major flaw.

All in all, I love him as a coach. We couldn't have a better coach right now, and I truly mean that. The games are so exciting this year. This has been my favorite year since Reggie by far. It is just so entertaining seeing us put up 110 nightly and it coming down to the end. Defense? Until a team can hold us under 100 then I'd be just fine with our defense giving up one point less than our offense scored a million times out of a million. A 130-129 win is just as good as a 90-89 win in my book.

Bball
03-06-2009, 01:57 PM
Finances and this win streak guaranteed O'Brien's return.

I'm not sold on his coaching philosophy but I do think he's ultimately an honest person with no hidden agenda and is fair with the players. When I say that I mean they know what to expect from him, whether they (or we) agree with it or not.

And he's managed to keep this team together through the losing. Not an easy task and he should get high marks for that. Also, management should also get high marks for having coachable players who helped make that possible. It's a 2 way street.

I wish I thought O'Brien was the long term answer but I don't.

-Bball

BRushWithDeath
03-06-2009, 02:03 PM
Finances and this win streak guaranteed O'Brien's return.


-Bball



A two game win "streak". Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008-2009 Indiana Pacers!

El Pacero
03-06-2009, 02:06 PM
I'm surprised nobody has responded to this, but it's very true. I can't figure it out, actually... did the guys finally get the system? Has the system changed? What's different?

Regardless, I think we can all agree that we'd be solidly in the playoffs if we'd been playing defense like this all year.

I can't figure it out either, but wonder if the timing of Granger and Dun both being out has something to do with it.

Oh, and I am all for JOB. Give him a chance next year with a more experienced team, less injuries, and let's see what he can do.

WetBob
03-06-2009, 02:20 PM
I can't figure it out either, but wonder if the timing of Granger and Dun both being out has something to do with it.

Oh, and I am all for JOB. Give him a chance next year with a more experienced team, less injuries, and let's see what he can do.

It has more to do with the added minutes for Quisy and BRush than it does with the lack of Granger and Dun.

I really don't give a crap about JOB. I knew he was staying, but until he shows a willingness to change his methods I won't be pleased.

Anthem
03-06-2009, 04:01 PM
I wish I thought O'Brien was the long term answer but I don't.
He doesn't need to be. One more year and he can finish his contract.

Unclebuck
03-06-2009, 04:19 PM
A two game win "streak". Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008-2009 Indiana Pacers!

The fact of the matter is the team has played rather well without its best two players. So I would say a streak of excellent play overall especially when you consider the circumstances

BRushWithDeath
03-06-2009, 04:33 PM
The fact of the matter is the team has played rather well without its best two players. So I would say a streak of excellent play overall especially when you consider the circumstances

I agree. I just think streak was a bad word. And I'd just finished reading Bill Simmons' mailbag

Einstein
03-06-2009, 04:48 PM
To paraphrase Forrest Gump's mother: Untalented is as untalented does.

My opinion is that a lot of our close losses are close because the other team does not fear our talent. They let us stay in the game because they know they can score at will or get stops when it really counts.

That all being said, I greatly admire these Pacers because they don't offer excuses, they fear no one, and they don't ever quit.

Putnam
03-06-2009, 05:37 PM
I greatly admire these Pacers because they don't offer excuses, they fear no one, and they don't ever quit.




You said a mouthful.



.

ChicagoJ
03-06-2009, 06:58 PM
You said a mouthful.



.

True. Those qualities aren't a nice as "overwhelming talent". But we've seen, this decade, a talented team physically that did not have these partciluar mental talents, and there were not very satisfying either.

It will be nice to add more talent to those characteristics. Then the team starts to resemble what we loved about the 90s era Pacers.

Naptown_Seth
03-07-2009, 11:49 AM
Isiah was overwhelmed as a game coach, but did a lot of nice player-development things. He made plenty of mistakes and needed to be fired much sooner than he was. But that 61-win team doesn't happen if Isiah doesn't develop JO, Tinsley, and even Foster into guys ready to start and make major contributions.

And years later, did Isiah "loose" them or did Ron Artest's looniness, plus a variety of offcourt tragedies "steal" them away from him?

To hear everybody describe them now, its a wonder that any coach ever had positive influence over that merry band of scalawags.

Far be it for me to defend Isiah... we've had three very flawed coaches over this decade trying thier best to deal with flawed rosters.
JO - check his per minute numbers in Portland. Now multiply those by the minutes he got in Indy. Yes, who could have seen that "development", ie "allowed to step on the court".

Tins - developed? Yeah, his assists only went up after year 1. They needed a PG and he got play right away. I'm glad they played him, but I can look to my right and read the Star Pacers Preview describing how Tinsley was the stone that Isiah was sculpting in. Year 2 I didn't really see that very much.

Ron - went looney toons on the court on a regular basis under Isiah. It was his most disruptive on-court period of his career. Now let's consider what Ron did when Ben shoved him. We all remember him going to the stands, but old Ron would have reacted much, much sooner and perhaps even more nuts. Even still Ron wasn't up there punching people. The punches were Jack and JO.

Ron had a tough time off-court - sure. But how does that help make Isiah's case for being so good with players and development? He had the chance to help him through a rough patch and it was an epic fail. Maybe it's not a negative mark for Isiah, but how in the hell is it a positive?

Fred - developed? Couldn't get on the court for Isiah, tripled his PT for Rick's 61 win team (ie, not hurting for talent).


What is all this growth? There was ZILCH. That's what gets me. Tinsley hated being kept under control by Rick, but let's face it that's exactly what he needed. The same was true for Ron.

You get these guys that want to play crap ball and wreck the system and moan about being asked to stick to the plan, and we are supposed to see that as a good thing? Sorry the medicine tastes so bad, but it's how you get better. That's how you breeze through 2 rounds of playoffs instead of being knocked out in round 1 yet again.

These guys had a coach that did the one thing they couldn't do themselves, come up with a winning plan. It's great if a coach can motivate you or whatever, but bottom line is the coach needs a team strategy and plays that work. Motivated slop is worthless - see Isiah.

If you are 25 and still need your hand held you've got problems. I realize a lot of these guys have needed that, but let's not put it down in the positive column for them.