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View Full Version : What is Troy Murphy's value?



rexnom
03-04-2009, 02:44 PM
I would prefer that this thread not degenerate into a discussion about his rebounding numbers - I think that as a board we have to agree to disagree on that one.

However, I am curious as to what you guys make of Troy's value. I think that this season has done wonders for Troy's value but I don't know whether he's "earning his contract" or whether we could ever expect to trade him, especially in this economy. However, Troy has averaged, in February and March, 19pts and 13rebs with 50+FG% 45+3PT% 85+FT%. For comparison's sake, Dirk averages 25 and 8 with significantly worse percentages. Those kind of numbers can't go unnoticed, right? At the same time, he's been steadily improving on the court, making his presence felt beyond his numbers.

I suspect that we'll keep him until the summer before he expires and then try to trade him to a team that can use the financial help and PF-help like we did with Austin Croshere.

Do you guys see any benefit to keeping him longer or less time than that? Does anyone see any role for Troy on this team other than the one he already has (stopgap starting PF)? Any general thoughts?

duke dynamite
03-04-2009, 02:52 PM
I see the benefit to keep him only if he continues to produce well. He may have been the sleeper in that trade looking at it now. (Of course that is what we said about Diogu, and look where he is.) It's better late than never.

Troy is a class-act for this team. He is producing, and he has a likeable character. He is great with the fans, and a little odd at times. He just doesn't seem like the normal basketball player of these days. Troy likes chic-flicks, romance novels, tanning, facials, and whatever other things twenty-something women love.

Personally, Troy's value has always been high for me. He has always played hard when he is on the floor, and hardly misses a game due to injury. I know he is flu-prone early in the winter, but people get sick.

CableKC
03-04-2009, 03:09 PM
Yes, if he continues to perform at this level ( even with the eventual return of Granger ), then he is FINALLY playing up to contract.

As to whether he could be traded, I think that his #s are a product of the System that he is put into. IMHO, he would fit in a system where the team has a dominant Center that can control the paint so that he is free to roam the perimeter. He would work out fine IMHO with the Magic with Howard kicking it out to everyone in the perimeter. We don't have a dominant Center....but our Center primarily roams near the paint and JO'Bs system allows for Murphy to wander outside the paint.

Speed
03-04-2009, 03:14 PM
I've taken alot of that as him goofing, like wanting to become a spray tanner person, I think it was.

Troy is perfect....in the right situation. He needs to have defensive minded guys around him to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. He's a handful though. I loved last night when he pumped faked TWO defenders in the air from 3 point land. Notice how basically with Marquis/BRush and Roy/Foster playing on either side of Troy how well he plays. Also, add in that this year Jack and TJ can mostly keep guys in front of them, it really allows Troy to be his best, imho.

I think if Troy is the 3rd scorer on the team and can be coupled with a low post presence at Center then he is great to have a PF.

He can control the boards defensively at that position, which is perfect.

The weak spot is other teams being able to guard him with a much smaller player at times. Troy's actually gotten better at that THIS SEASON. I made a long post how when Dun and Troy are in there together you can small ball the Pacers to death w/o them making you pay by posting guys up. They haven't been in there together, so it's not a double dose of that and it makes it much less of a liability.

I think Troy has to stay slim, no more bulking up, I think that was a huge part of his problems last year and I basically blame Bird for telling him to do it.

Troy's better 1:1 defensively than many give him credit for, no he's not Kevin Garnett, but he's much improved. He's not versatile in that he can guard big centers or quick small forwards, not a knock, he's just not flexible defensively, but I'd say he can guard his counterpart sans Atwain Jamison and the like.

Lastly, in order to be most effective he has to attack offensively. He's not going to be Dale Davis that picks up garbage buckets and alters a ton of shots while not getting any looks through the offense. It's okay though, but that just has to come from somewhere else. The thing I mostly worry about is when Danny is back and if Dunleavy was in there-the opportunities for Troy to do what he does best are limited.

It's not that Troy can't be a role player, he just won't be as effective when he's not playing the role he's built to play.

I guess what I'm saying is Troy is better used and more effective when he's attacking offensively and has guys around him who are above average defenders. So Troy's future with the Pacers and in the league will be based on fit, imho. If he stays or gets in the perfect situation, he'll be a very very good player and be seen as one of the top player at his position even. If is put in a situation that isn't geared toward his ability/skills he could flounder, imho.

This years he's been exceptional, really been one of my favorites this last couple of months.

ABADays
03-04-2009, 03:52 PM
I think Troy has had a terrific year. If it's being asked what his value is for trade purposes I'm not sure I agree he should be traded. Who do you think we could get that has produced the number of double doubles this guy has. I think he has far more value WITH the Pacers than others seem to think.

Bball
03-04-2009, 04:34 PM
I think Murphy is more of a "don't know what you've got 'til he's gone" guy.

His contract is what it is. The thing is, he's (IMHO) doing everything he can for the team. It's not his fault his contract is what it is.

I'd much rather have Murphy than Foster.

I bet there's interest in Murphy this summer, even with his contract. I think he came here with a stigma that has allowed perception to become reality regardless of what he does on the court.

The question is whether the Pacers can utilize that interest to improve the team. Trading Murphy just to somehow help the Simons' wallets is not going to help the team if that is the only benefit.

Peter_sixtyftsixin
03-04-2009, 04:41 PM
I personally think Murphy is one of the most underrated players in the NBA.

Hicks
03-04-2009, 04:43 PM
I hope we trade him only because I'd rather have a guy with worse numbers but who plays good or very good defense in the paint (and can score there, too) than what Troy brings. That's not a criticism of Troy, but rather my personal preference.

Hicks
03-04-2009, 04:46 PM
However, with that said, let me ask this: Is Troy Murphy the power forward Peja Stojakovic? I mean in terms of shooting aren't they pretty similar, and don't they both fill the need/want of most teams in having a deadly shooter in your starting 5?

Sure, it's unconventional because he starts at the 4, but when he's out there, doesn't he achieve something (somewhat) similar?

I'm not sure who I'd rather have any one given game, honestly. Sure, who the teammates are would play a large role, but in comparing them head to head, who would you rather have?

ChicagoJ
03-04-2009, 04:47 PM
Well, I'd prefer we draft a guy who is a physical presence in the paint and keep Troy around while the new guy develops.

I wouldn't mind keeping Troy after this contract at a reduced price for a reduced role.

For too long, there was a misperception that because he was "overpaid" that he didn't belong in the league. Not true. He can contribute.

His style just doesn't match what I think you need from a starting PF (or C.) Now, as a first big off the bench, he'd make an excellent change-of-pace player.

dohman
03-04-2009, 04:49 PM
Murphy would be perfect with a athletic back to the basket type of Center. If we could pair him with a player of that calibur you will see him at his best. I see hibbert being that player but not for another 2 or 3 years. Hopefully by that time Murph will not be past his prime.

OakMoses
03-04-2009, 04:49 PM
One thing I thought was funny last night was one of the Kings' announcers saying, "Murphy does a lot of things that help your team win ball games." This caused me to think to myself, "Why hasn't Murphy ever played on a winning team?"

I don't blame him for this. He's played for two organizations in his career: a terrible one and one that's in the midst of rebuilding.

Murphy is what he is. He's a very skilled offensive player and a pretty good rebounder. He's got a fair amount of toughness, and he busts his butt every game, even on defense though he knows he's overmatched athletically nearly every night.

Right now, with Danny and Dunleavy out, he fits our needs at the PF position perfectly. When we're at full strength, Troy is less valuable to us because too many of his offensive skills are duplicated and his chances to use his talents are significantly reduced.

Phildog
03-04-2009, 04:51 PM
I like Murph, and he's a great fantasy player. However, I think you have to discount numbers anytime you're on a sub .500 team and ask whether or not they are good players to win, not just put up stats.

I mean, Garnett COULD put up better numbers than he does, but it comes down to doing what makes the team win.

While I like his stat lines game after game, the wins still haven't come, and while I am not blaming all losses on Murph, it just makes it easier to pick on the flaws he has--and say "That is what we are missing to win."

Overall, we seem to know what we are getting out of Murphy, and to me, that means you can build around him to support him, or trade him for what you need. Therefore, he's a valuable piece--moneywise and teamwise.

Hicks
03-04-2009, 04:54 PM
Murphy would be perfect with a athletic back to the basket type of Center. If we could pair him with a player of that calibur you will see him at his best. I see hibbert being that player but not for another 2 or 3 years. Hopefully by that time Murph will not be past his prime.

I agree with this, but only when the ball is in the Pacers' possession. Defensively, it's still a problem, but if Hibbert can become a defensive force (not a safe assumption right now) I suppose it could pass.

After all, I think a big mistake I and others make often is to confuse the ideal with the real in terms of what a "finished product" team will look like. It's not like eventually you get a team with 5 starting players who are all two-way players that can rebound and/or do some other third/fourth thing pretty well. You almost always have guys with big flaws in their games. So maybe it could work with he and Roy.

But you'd definitely need the back court to improve.

OakMoses
03-04-2009, 05:13 PM
I think you have to take salary into account when looking at value.

This year Murphy makes just over $10 million. He's the 54th highest-paid player in the NBA. Steve Francis, Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak, Larry Hughes, and Erick Dampier all make more money than Troy.

Really, Troy's probably the 3rd or 4th best player on an average NBA team. That means he should be somewhere between the 61st and 120th highest paid player in the league. That means he should make somewhere between 6.5 and 9.9 million. Right now he's being paid like he's the 2nd best player on a bad team. In reality he's probably the 3rd best player on a below average team. This means he should be paid around $8 million.

MrSparko
03-04-2009, 05:27 PM
So he's overpaid by two million? I won't cry too much if we won't be able to sign a Maceo Baston type player because of that. I realize that's still quite a bit especially in this climate, but there are far worse deals considering that another year just got knocked off too.

DisapointedPacerFan
03-04-2009, 05:30 PM
Troy is a PF playing like a bigger SF. He plays horrible defense but is a rebounding machine. It will be hard to rid of him because of his contract if rumors come up for him (unless all the big name FA's pick up their options for the 2010-2011 season, then Dunleavy, Murphy and even Tinsley become the hottest names on the trade market). He's a great athlete, but he provides no defense against the opposing team's PF (i.e. Amare Stoudemire).

owl
03-04-2009, 05:31 PM
I believe that is fairly good assesment of Murphy. The Pacers need a little more defensive help in the front court primarily to help maximize Murphy. I think I have fairly clearly stated
my preferences in the draft but I would like to add Young from Pittsburgh as someone to
keep and eye on. I especially like the idea of Blair on the Pacers. That would put alot of
pressure on the other teams interior thus maximizing Murphy's skills.

Unclebuck
03-04-2009, 05:36 PM
He'd be really good teamed with Dwight Howard. His one-on-one defense is poor, his team defense is pretty good. He has really good hands which is one reason why he gets so many rebounds. I cannot figure out though if he is as good a rebounder as his numbers indicate. He gets a lot of them - but then JO always did too and I never thought he was a good rebounder.

I'm not making any sense - I know

Justin Tyme
03-04-2009, 05:36 PM
Right now for the system and coach, Murphy is the right fit. He's not my ideal type of PF, but in this system he thrives. He's shooting well, and rebounding as well as any PF in the league. He fits this system. He has 2 more seasons on his contract, and after next season he'll be an expiring with O'Brien gone. That is the time to try moving him. The Pacers need to acquire a more traditional PF in a trade or draft one for the eventual time when Murphy leaves. JMOAA

duke dynamite
03-04-2009, 05:36 PM
For the record, Troy is certified to spray tan.

2minutes twowa
03-04-2009, 05:47 PM
For the record, Troy is certified to spray tan.

Well that changes everything!:D

duke dynamite
03-04-2009, 05:54 PM
Well that changes everything!:D
I'm not sure I follow you...lol :hmm:

count55
03-04-2009, 06:37 PM
I think Troy has to stay slim, no more bulking up, I think that was a huge part of his problems last year and I basically blame Bird for telling him to do it.

My understanding was that he had actually dropped a lot of weight in GS for Nellie, but never felt right. He wasn't "bulking up", per se, but just getting back to what he felt his normal playing weight was.


Troy's better 1:1 defensively than many give him credit for, no he's not Kevin Garnett, but he's much improved. He's not versatile in that he can guard big centers or quick small forwards, not a knock, he's just not flexible defensively, but I'd say he can guard his counterpart sans Atwain Jamison and the like.

Lastly, in order to be most effective he has to attack offensively. He's not going to be Dale Davis that picks up garbage buckets and alters a ton of shots while not getting any looks through the offense. It's okay though, but that just has to come from somewhere else. The thing I mostly worry about is when Danny is back and if Dunleavy was in there-the opportunities for Troy to do what he does best are limited.

It's not that Troy can't be a role player, he just won't be as effective when he's not playing the role he's built to play.

I guess what I'm saying is Troy is better used and more effective when he's attacking offensively and has guys around him who are above average defenders. So Troy's future with the Pacers and in the league will be based on fit, imho. If he stays or gets in the perfect situation, he'll be a very very good player and be seen as one of the top player at his position even. If is put in a situation that isn't geared toward his ability/skills he could flounder, imho.

This years he's been exceptional, really been one of my favorites this last couple of months.

I do think he is a guy who plays better with a bigger role.


Well, I'd prefer we draft a guy who is a physical presence in the paint and keep Troy around while the new guy develops.

I wouldn't mind keeping Troy after this contract at a reduced price for a reduced role.

For too long, there was a misperception that because he was "overpaid" that he didn't belong in the league. Not true. He can contribute.

His style just doesn't match what I think you need from a starting PF (or C.) Now, as a first big off the bench, he'd make an excellent change-of-pace player.

There was a thread last year where Colin Cowherd claimed JO was the "most overrated" player in the last 15 years. Somebody made the comment that overpaid=overrated. I used Murph, and (at the time) Dunleavy as guys who were overpaid, but underrated.

I had equated Murph to Foster in terms of general contribution, though Murph's level play is much higher than anything we've ever seen from Foster.

I still believe he's overpaid, but we've had worse contracts. There really no question he's playing very, very good basketball right now.



He'd be really good teamed with Dwight Howard. His one-on-one defense is poor, his team defense is pretty good. He has really good hands which is one reason why he gets so many rebounds. I cannot figure out though if he is as good a rebounder as his numbers indicate. He gets a lot of them - but then JO always did too and I never thought he was a good rebounder.

I'm not making any sense - I know

He's a good rebounder.

d_c
03-04-2009, 07:20 PM
I suspect that we'll keep him until the summer before he expires and then try to trade him to a team that can use the financial help and PF-help like we did with Austin Croshere.

Do you guys see any benefit to keeping him longer or less time than that? Does anyone see any role for Troy on this team other than the one he already has (stopgap starting PF)? Any general thoughts?

Murphy has had a very nice stretch here and deserves nothing but praise for it, but in the long run, that doesn't change the fact that PF is the position the Pacers need to upgrade the most (assuming Hibbert pans out into a competent starter).

PacersRule
03-04-2009, 07:47 PM
In my opinion, a lot more than most people think. Before the season started, he was just an average-good player (this is arguable, but he does average a double-double). However, with Granger and Dunleavy out, he has really stepped up for the team and showed that he can really play (at least on the offensive end, though I don't think he's THAT bad on defense either).

Of course, he might not be as athletic as other bigs on other teams, but his hustle plays make most of it up. If we could get a defensive-type center that complements Murphy, his value to the Pacers will hopefully be more clear.
As everyone knows, he's putting up Dwightish numbers lately.

count55
03-04-2009, 08:06 PM
I think you have to take salary into account when looking at value.

This year Murphy makes just over $10 million. He's the 54th highest-paid player in the NBA. Steve Francis, Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak, Larry Hughes, and Erick Dampier all make more money than Troy.

Really, Troy's probably the 3rd or 4th best player on an average NBA team. That means he should be somewhere between the 61st and 120th highest paid player in the league. That means he should make somewhere between 6.5 and 9.9 million. Right now he's being paid like he's the 2nd best player on a bad team. In reality he's probably the 3rd best player on a below average team. This means he should be paid around $8 million.


So he's overpaid by two million? I won't cry too much if we won't be able to sign a Maceo Baston type player because of that. I realize that's still quite a bit especially in this climate, but there are far worse deals considering that another year just got knocked off too.

On the face of it the $2mm doesn't seem like much, but there are other considerations.

First, the 10mm jumps to $11mm next year, and $12mm the year after that.

Second the fact that he makes so much not only prevents us from signing a "Maceo Baston" type player. It is $2-3mm that we can't use to augment other salaries. If we had that extra $2-3mm, we could afford to spend up to $6-7mm when deciding to go with a FA or re-signing Jack or Daniels.

Taking Murphy & Dunleavy together...if, instead of owing them $21mm combined, we owed a more reasonable $15-16mm, then we could almost certainly keep both Jack and Daniels.

Also, it makes Murph untradeable. Not that we're shopping him, but at $10-11mm, nobody even looks at Murph. They simply can't get past that contract. At $8mm, teams might not be thrilled with the contract, but they'd be looking at both his numbers and play and considering it.

So, it's not just the $2-3mm, and the player you could get for that money. It's all of the options you no longer have because you don't have that couple of mil.

Country Boy
03-04-2009, 08:20 PM
Many here keep saying we need to upgrade at the PF spot without going any deeper than just saying that. I mean are we talking about a Dale Davis type player or a Howard or Garnett type of player? Another question can the Pacers afford the type of PF everyone here thinks that they need? It is easy to just throw it out there, yeah man we need a better PF, however actually getting one is another matter.

BTW, since when do all PFs have the same exact game? There are some that defend and block shots but don't have much of an offense and there are some that have a great offense and average defense. There are only a handful that can do it all and they come at a king's ransom.

For those wanting Troy gone, be careful what you ask for, you may not be happy with what you get in the process.

Pacerized
03-04-2009, 09:23 PM
Troy's #'s may indicate that his value would be around 8 million, but if he were a free agent what would he be offered. I'd think Troy has played well enough to merit a multi year deal starting at the MLE, but nothing more. His trade value isn't negative, but I'd expect to have to take back a mediocre player with a similar contract if we traded him. Troy might be someone who we could package with a pick to upgrade at the 1 or 2. Last year I'd say he had a negative trade value.

Taterhead
03-04-2009, 09:47 PM
I remember when the Pacers made the trade with Jalen for Artest, and Brad a few years back. After the trade was made, when asked why, Isaih said "We needed some dogs". That was true then, and it's true today. This team doesn't need a big guy to stand around and shoot outside. They need someone to protect the basket and be an enforcer down low. That is not Murphy nor Hibbert either. But I believe based on what I've seen that Hibbert is the future for us at C. So we need to get an enforcer type to compliment him.

It's not that Murphy stinks, but he is just not what I want in a big man.

reiter883r
03-04-2009, 10:12 PM
He'd be really good teamed with Dwight Howard.


There are a LOT of players in the NBA that would be really good teamed with Dwight Howard. ;)

rm1369
03-04-2009, 10:48 PM
I don't like Troy's game and I will be surprised if he is ever the starting PF on a contending team. I believe that Troy’s weaknesses are very important components to winning - namely defense and post offense. Ideally I want four things from my PF - C tandem: rebounding, post defense, post offense, and shot blocking. The problem isn't just that Troy only provides one of these elements; it's that he is so poor at the other three. You add in that athletically he is at a disadvantage most nights and I think you become hard pressed to create a balanced starting frontcourt with Troy as part of the equation. His long range shooting is great, but that is his biggest skill and it is nearly at the bottom of list of things I want from the position.

aceace
03-04-2009, 11:09 PM
Troy's 3 pt shooting more than makes up for his lack of post up skills. He's in the top 15 of 3 pt shooters. He draws defenders out and takes their ability to rebound out. You cannot leave this guy alone he is just as much a threat from 3 as Ray Allen. What is that worth to a team?

BlueNGold
03-04-2009, 11:11 PM
Murphy has had his best year in the NBA. I am not a fan of his game, but he deserves praise for his effort and production. He certainly does rebound the ball and he can put up points.

I do think that the absence of Dunleavy has provided him more of an opportunity to be a go-to scorer. I think his value is definitely higher than one year ago...a lot higher.

So what is his value? I would say it depends on supply and demand. I don't think demand for him is all that high because most successful teams have real SG's and sometimes PG's and SF's who shoot the 3. I think most successful teams look for a defensive presence at the PF position...if they don't have a star there. ...so, I think it would take a unique set of circumstances for him to be much value on the market, particularly with his contract.

JMHO.

Edit: BTW, I have not looked at other rosters, but my perception is that most successful teams need more interior defense than a guy like Murphy is going to provide. I would use Murphy more as a change-up against certain competition to stretch the floor....and bring him off the bench for 15-20 minutes max.

rm1369
03-04-2009, 11:26 PM
Troy's 3 pt shooting more than makes up for his lack of post up skills.

It doesn't if you believe that a team needs post scoring or post D to be succesful.

aceace
03-04-2009, 11:36 PM
It doesn't if you believe that a team needs post scoring or post D to be succesful.Granger, Daniels, Hibbert all can post up. Rik Smits never had a post up game, terrible rebounder for his size and could not shoot a 3. Murphy is much better than Smits ever was. We won with Smits because we had the right players around him.

BlueNGold
03-04-2009, 11:43 PM
Granger, Daniels, Hibbert all can post up. Rik Smits never had a post up game, terrible rebounder for his size and could not shoot a 3. Murphy is much better than Smits ever was. We won with Smits because we had the right players around him.

Murphy is much better than Smits? I presume you are not serious.

Smits made the all-star team for a reason. He was an important player, the 2nd best offensive player, on a team that went to the NBA finals and a team that contended for years. When Smits was out, the Pacers took a major hit. Murphy would be lucky to be a 7th man on that team. There's a reason Murph is undefeated in the playoffs...;)

ChicagoJ
03-04-2009, 11:51 PM
Smits was the best 7'4" SF in league history, at least after Larry Bird arrived.

Made Dale's toughness even more important.

But under Larry Brown and even Bo Hill, before Rik's feet got really bad, he still had a very nice post game. Offensive skill in the post was never a concern.

Now his post defense on the other hand... :shudder:

Actually that's an exaggeration, he could defend most centers one-on-one in the paint. It was his unhelfpul help defense that got him in trouble, in foul trouble, and drove everybody nuts.

rm1369
03-04-2009, 11:52 PM
Granger, Daniels, Hibbert all can post up. Rik Smits never had a post up game, terrible rebounder for his size and could not shoot a 3. Murphy is much better than Smits ever was. We won with Smits because we had the right players around him.

I guess we will just have to disagree. I don't see much post offense from DG or Daniels.

I remember the old Pacers starting many games by dumping the ball into Rick in the post - consistantly. You are correct that he wasn't a good rebounder. I guess we have completly different views of the game because I never considered the fact that Rick didn't have a 3 pt shot an issue. And I'd much prefer to have Rik than Troy.

You are correct that we won with Rick because we had the right players around him. That is my whole issue with Troy - unless you have D. Howard, you can't create the balanced frontcourt that I prefer with Troy.

aceace
03-05-2009, 12:03 AM
If Rik Smits was that great why haven't we retired his number. Dale Davis played all the defense in the post. That's what I mean by having the right players around him. I believe this is why we seem better when Roy plays. Rik avg a career 15pts a game and most of those points came from 15 feet. He was a good shooter, no doubt, but never had remarkable stats.

rm1369
03-05-2009, 12:20 AM
If Rik Smits was that great why haven't we retired his number. Dale Davis played all the defense in the post. That's what I mean by having the right players around him. I believe this is why we seem better when Roy plays. Rik avg a career 15pts a game and most of those points came from 15 feet. He was a good shooter, no doubt, but never had remarkable stats.


I think we are better when Roy plays because he adds two elements that Troy lacks significantly - post scoring and shot blocking. I just believe that that combination is so weak defensively and athletically that you can't expect to compete at a championship level with them both playing significant minutes. And I believe that it will be much easier to find an athletic, defensive, and rebounding PF (the new DD) to pair with Roy than it will be to find the athletic, defensive, shot blocking center with a post game that you need to pair with Troy.

MagicRat
03-05-2009, 12:24 AM
I say we're better when we start Greg Dreiling instead of Smits......

ChicagoJ
03-05-2009, 12:35 AM
I say we're better when we start Greg Dreiling instead of Smits......

One of life's great mysteries.

Taterhead
03-05-2009, 12:53 AM
If Rik Smits was that great why haven't we retired his number. Dale Davis played all the defense in the post. That's what I mean by having the right players around him. I believe this is why we seem better when Roy plays. Rik avg a career 15pts a game and most of those points came from 15 feet. He was a good shooter, no doubt, but never had remarkable stats.

Rik wasn't a legend by any means. But saying he had no post game is a way off, JMO. He had a very nice hook shot, his turn around jumper was very good also. He was one of the best offensive centers around. And he wasn't as bad as some think on defense either. He is 7'4" so he did atleast alter and affect shots in some form. Troy does absolutely nothing on defense. Plus that team had Mark Jackson who is one of the best post up point men playing in the league at that time, so they had 2 very good post options. Just because you are good at one thing, doesn't make up for anything. If anything, the fact that he is non existent on the defensive end cancels out anything he does well on offense.

Country Boy
03-05-2009, 09:21 AM
I will be glad when Troy is traded so the bashing will move on, next.

ChicagoJ
03-05-2009, 11:43 AM
Rik wasn't a legend by any means. But saying he had no post game is a way off, JMO. He had a very nice hook shot, his turn around jumper was very good also. He was one of the best offensive centers around. And he wasn't as bad as some think on defense either. He is 7'4" so he did atleast alter and affect shots in some form.

Just as very few people now remember just how dominant JO was from 2002-2004, nobody remembers how effecient Smits was - as a legic C - from 1993-96 or so.

Its a little easier to remember the vintage Reggie, thanks to NBA Classics. Its just human nature that we remember how they played more recently than how they played at their peak.

count55
03-05-2009, 11:51 AM
Just as very few people now remember just how dominant JO was from 2002-2004, nobody remembers how effecient Smits was - as a legic C - from 1993-96 or so.

Its a little easier to remember the vintage Reggie, thanks to NBA Classics. Its just human nature that we remember how they played more recently than how they played at their peak.

In that Pacers Greatest Games Vol1 DVD, there's a Knicks game where he just abused them for the first three quarters...I think it's the 8 pts/11 secs game.

He was a very good post player.

ChicagoJ
03-05-2009, 02:00 PM
Yes - good call. He was the star of that game for the first 47.5 minutes. Then the skinny kid came in an played "hero" in a legendary way.

One of the home playoff games against Atlanta in '94 was also a monster game for Smits. Brown went to him in the low post for the first six possessions of the game or something like that, and the blowout was on.

aceace
03-05-2009, 02:12 PM
Please don't think I am bashing Smits he had his games. I am just saying that 14pts and 12 rbd plus being the 9th best 3pt shooter in the game and the 8 in front of him have hit far fewer 3's, he's far better than the disrespect he gets on this board. I believe Roy given time will be better than Smits. Rik was not very impressive his first few years.

Hicks
03-05-2009, 05:10 PM
I'm appreciating Troy more now that I see him as I see Peja Stojakovic. Not just because they're both great shooters, but because when you appreciate them for what they do, instead of hating them for what they can't do, you realize they're nice players to have around.

BlueNGold
03-05-2009, 10:46 PM
I keep seeing the Peja comparison with Troy here. Peja is a much, much better shooter than Troy. Better from anywhere on the floor....all while being tightly guarded. He's a 3 time all star. He's won the 3pt shoot-out twice.

He has almost always played on more competitive teams against athletic defenders at the 3 spot....where much more defense is being applied. He played with Sacramento when they were good and averaged around 20ppg for 6 years. He's now with another good team in New Orleans. ....so the level of competition has been a lot stiffer.

Peja's also a SF. The holes in his game are pretty minor really. The knock on Troy has never been that he cannot shoot as well as a SF. It's that he's not supposed to be a SF, but still plays like one. Troy is Austin Croshere with a few more boards.

count55
03-05-2009, 11:05 PM
I keep seeing the Peja comparison with Troy here. Peja is a much, much better shooter than Troy. Better from anywhere on the floor....all while being tightly guarded. He's a 3 time all star. He's won the 3pt shoot-out twice.

He has almost always played on more competitive teams against athletic defenders at the 3 spot....where much more defense is being applied. He played with Sacramento when they were good and averaged around 20ppg for 6 years. He's now with another good team in New Orleans. ....so the level of competition has been a lot stiffer.

Peja's also a SF. The holes in his game are pretty minor really. The knock on Troy has never been that he cannot shoot as well as a SF. It's that he's not supposed to be a SF, but still plays like one. Troy is Austin Croshere with a few more boards.

Of course, Peja is one of the few players in the league that I can say unequivocally has a worse contract than Troy's.

Kemo
03-05-2009, 11:26 PM
Troy is Austin Croshere with a few more boards.

I like Croshere , but Austin couldn't hold Troy's jockstrap .. lol

REAL TALK ..

BlueNGold
03-05-2009, 11:34 PM
Of course, Peja is one of the few players in the league that I can say unequivocally has a worse contract than Troy's.

That would be true. At this stage, Troy is playing better too. I guess comparing them right now is a little unfair though to Peja who is a declining SF at this point.

BlueNGold
03-05-2009, 11:51 PM
I like Croshere , but Austin couldn't hold Troy's jockstrap .. lol

REAL TALK ..

Ok, maybe he's more than Austin and 10 boards a game. I will go for that.

But if he is so much better than Croshere, he should represent our long term answer at PF. Maybe another Dirk Nowitzski. Is that what people really think? So it seems.

larry
03-06-2009, 12:24 AM
He had a few awesome boards last night.
He's a great fit here & we'd be retarded to trade him.
It would an absolutely ignorant move.
He shouldn' guard the best post guy on the other team.
Problem solved.
Don't even think about trading him.
That goes to everybody on here!!!!!!!!!!!

Kemo
03-06-2009, 12:44 AM
He had a few awesome boards last night.
He's a great fit here & we'd be retarded to trade him.
It would an absolutely ignorant move.
He shouldn' guard the best post guy on the other team.
Problem solved.
Don't even think about trading him.
That goes to everybody on here!!!!!!!!!!!


110% agree ..

I have REALLY grown to like Murphy alot this season..

Sad fact is , you are gonna always have people wanting to trade players like baseball cards .. no matter how good the player is or is becoming ..
It seems to me, that some of these same "fans" are opportunists who's only interest is in "trade value" *rolls eyes*

/sarcasm

.
.

The only players I have *personally* really grown attatched to on this Pacers team, and believe they are critical cogs to our future , are Granger , Dun (if healthy), Murphy , Hibbert ,Rush and Diener

and to a lesser extent Jack/Quis (one or the other) I personally prefer Quis... But it really is a toss-up as each bring nice things to this team..

Honorable mention goes to
McRoberts (IF they don't p*ss his career away by not letting him see the light of day on the floor) I really have grown to like this kid , and I hope they keep him and start letting him get some minutes on the floor this upcoming season, I REALLY think he has all the tools to be a good to very good player IF TPTB would have faith in him and take a chance on him..

I think there are a decent handful of players who "could" be all stars one day ,because of their talent/skills, but they get the McRoberts treatment or worse, and never get the chance to prove their potential..And alot of it has to do with pecking order.. If they aren't a lottery pick, or best friends with the star of their respected team who pushes for their PT (a'la Gibson/Lebron) ..

It sucks really..
.
.

Anthem
03-06-2009, 01:35 AM
I keep seeing the Peja comparison with Troy here. Peja is a much, much better shooter than Troy.
:laugh:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3412/3331826381_095277360d_o_d.png

Go through those one line at a time. It's shocking how similar they are, except for rebounds (where Troy CRUSHES Peja) and shooting percentages (again, it's not pretty).

I will allow you to retract your statement.

Taterhead
03-06-2009, 02:51 AM
110% agree ..

I have REALLY grown to like Murphy alot this season..

Sad fact is , you are gonna always have people wanting to trade players like baseball cards .. no matter how good the player is or is becoming ..
It seems to me, that some of these same "fans" are opportunists who's only interest is in "trade value" *rolls eyes*

/sarcasm

.
.

The only players I have *personally* really grown attatched to on this Pacers team, and believe they are critical cogs to our future , are Granger , Dun (if healthy), Murphy , Hibbert ,Rush and Diener

and to a lesser extent Jack/Quis (one or the other) I personally prefer Quis... But it really is a toss-up as each bring nice things to this team..

Honorable mention goes to
McRoberts (IF they don't p*ss his career away by not letting him see the light of day on the floor) I really have grown to like this kid , and I hope they keep him and start letting him get some minutes on the floor this upcoming season, I REALLY think he has all the tools to be a good to very good player IF TPTB would have faith in him and take a chance on him..

I think there are a decent handful of players who "could" be all stars one day ,because of their talent/skills, but they get the McRoberts treatment or worse, and never get the chance to prove their potential..And alot of it has to do with pecking order.. If they aren't a lottery pick, or best friends with the star of their respected team who pushes for their PT (a'la Gibson/Lebron) ..

It sucks really..
.
.

So let me get this straight, you like just about everybody (who plays) on the team and feel a majority of them are "critical cogs" to the future? I am confused by that, because last I checked we are like 10 games under .500 and last in the division. And 1 or 2 minor changes is not going to dramatically change that. Either you want to get better or you don't. I don't mind making due with Murphy for the next two years after this, but we should definitely be looking for his replacement.

Drewtone
03-06-2009, 10:30 AM
If Rik Smits was that great why haven't we retired his number. Dale Davis played all the defense in the post. That's what I mean by having the right players around him. I believe this is why we seem better when Roy plays. Rik avg a career 15pts a game and most of those points came from 15 feet. He was a good shooter, no doubt, but never had remarkable stats.

I would encourage you to check his stats from some of those series with the Knicks... I believe one of them, he was arounf 24 points/gm against Ewing.

Dr. Goldfoot
03-06-2009, 11:10 AM
Troy is having a great season but I'm not sure his overall value has risen that much. His contract still stinks. It's a turnoff for trading partners and he eats up too much cap space to put the necessary players around him. He alone takes up 15-17% of a team's salary (depending on if you're looking at cap or luxury tax numbers). That's too much considering he began the season as the third or fourth option offensively.

As for his future with the Pacers, I hope they're actively shopping him and he becomes valuable as an expiring. That's not meant to denounce his on court contributions but the fact still remains he's the highest paid player on this team until his contract expires.

When I look at the cap hit down the road from Murphy, Dunleavy, Ford & Foster it's really discouraging. In the '10-'11 season they'll take up $38 million dollars of cap space. Add Danny and you're at $49. Enter the Gates of Hell and add Jamaal and the Pacers are sitting pretty with only $56 million guaranteed for six players (four of which will be over 30 years old). For reference, this years salary cap was $58 million.

ChicagoJ
03-06-2009, 02:15 PM
So let me get this straight, you like just about everybody (who plays) on the team and feel a majority of them are "critical cogs" to the future? I am confused by that, because last I checked we are like 10 games under .500 and last in the division. And 1 or 2 minor changes is not going to dramatically change that. Either you want to get better or you don't. I don't mind making due with Murphy for the next two years after this, but we should definitely be looking for his replacement.

Oh now you've done it. No more common sense allowed. Stop it right now.

:D

Midcoasted
03-06-2009, 02:25 PM
So let me get this straight, you like just about everybody (who plays) on the team and feel a majority of them are "critical cogs" to the future? I am confused by that, because last I checked we are like 10 games under .500 and last in the division. And 1 or 2 minor changes is not going to dramatically change that. Either you want to get better or you don't. I don't mind making due with Murphy for the next two years after this, but we should definitely be looking for his replacement.

I would also like to add that we've lost at least 20 close games this year and that I believe a couple players could turn us into a contender. What if we draft the next Jordan or Chamberlain next year? You never know what could happen. One player can turn a team with this much chemistry around. If we won just five of the close games we lost we'd be .500. I'm almost positive if we could keep this team together and develop the rookies including McBob we could win 10 of those games we've lost next year. That would put us at 37-27 and 4th in the East. Very feasbile for next year.

You're jumping ship before we've even started to sink.

BlueNGold
03-06-2009, 08:47 PM
:laugh:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3412/3331826381_095277360d_o_d.png

Go through those one line at a time. It's shocking how similar they are, except for rebounds (where Troy CRUSHES Peja) and shooting percentages (again, it's not pretty).

I will allow you to retract your statement.

Anthem - I looked at the stats before making the statement. It was a bit shocking but the reason I followed through is because I believe Peja has faced much tighter defense. While Peja contends with quick, athletic defenders at the 3 spot who can chase him around the perimeter, Troy camps out at the 3 point line while real PF's tend to stay closer to the paint and are not at all accustomed to guarding the 3 pt line. ...and even if they were, they are not likely to be able to apply the perimeter pressure a SF can apply.

This is reflected somewhat in the significant free throw % difference. While Peja is unguarded, he is a freaking dead eye. Murphy's good, but there's simply a big difference in accuracy.

I also pointed out that Peja has played on better teams during his career, probably in more competitive games.

All this combined with his 3 pt. shooting championships and all-star appearance even while being a lame defender, indicates that Peja is definitely the much better shooter. He's better statistically even under these circumstances...so I don't think it's all that close.

Edit: BTW, if you look at his career percentages, it goes the other way. Troy is having his best year, Peja his worst and is declining at this point. Not really a fair comparison looking at one year....

croz24
03-06-2009, 09:03 PM
troy definitely is having a career year, but the guy is a loser. he's been a loser everywhere he's played and will most likely continue to be one...this includes his weak a** effort while at notre dame.

Country Boy
03-06-2009, 09:07 PM
troy definitely is having a career year, but the guy is a loser. he's been a loser everywhere he's played and will most likely continue to be one...this includes his weak a** effort while at notre dame.

Well that took a lot of effort to post.

Country Boy
03-06-2009, 09:09 PM
Anthem - I looked at the stats before making the statement. It was a bit shocking but the reason I followed through is because I believe Peja has faced much tighter defense. While Peja contends with quick, athletic defenders at the 3 spot who can chase him around the perimeter, Troy camps out at the 3 point line while real PF's tend to stay closer to the paint and are not at all accustomed to guarding the 3 pt line. ...and even if they were, they are not likely to be able to apply the perimeter pressure a SF can apply.

This is reflected somewhat in the significant free throw % difference. While Peja is unguarded, he is a freaking dead eye. Murphy's good, but there's simply a big difference in accuracy.

I also pointed out that Peja has played on better teams during his career, probably in more competitive games.

All this combined with his 3 pt. shooting championships and all-star appearance even while being a lame defender, indicates that Peja is definitely the much better shooter. He's better statistically even under these circumstances...so I don't think it's all that close.

Edit: BTW, if you look at his career percentages, it goes the other way. Troy is having his best year, Peja his worst and is declining at this point. Not really a fair comparison looking at one year....

It seems that Troy has to jump through more hoops than a circus lion all the while the goal posts keep moving.

Taterhead
03-06-2009, 09:43 PM
I would also like to add that we've lost at least 20 close games this year and that I believe a couple players could turn us into a contender. What if we draft the next Jordan or Chamberlain next year? You never know what could happen. One player can turn a team with this much chemistry around. If we won just five of the close games we lost we'd be .500. I'm almost positive if we could keep this team together and develop the rookies including McBob we could win 10 of those games we've lost next year. That would put us at 37-27 and 4th in the East. Very feasbile for next year.

You're jumping ship before we've even started to sink.

Yeah, and a good chunk of our wins have been pretty close too. You just aren't going to win every close one. I actually would think the Pacers have held their own in nail biters. The problem with the Pacers is that they have way too many close games to begin with. You just aren't going to drop 110-120 every night and it's ridiculous to bank on that.

I just think the best way to start improving on defense is to pick out your worst defender who plays the most minutes and replace him with a good one. And then repeat that cycle. The only exception should be your most important offensive player. PG and PF are the teams two worst defensive positions and they need to be addressed. And not by adding some guy to play 10-15 minutes a game. These have to be key cogs to make a big difference on that end. JMO

BlueNGold
03-06-2009, 09:46 PM
It seems that Troy has to jump through more hoops than a circus lion all the while the goal posts keep moving.

Troy's a fine shooter. This is not about Troy being bad. This is about comparing a good shooter having the best year of his career on a bad team to a great shooter who has played on competitive teams throughout his career. Troy is a good shooter. Reggie Miller is a great shooter. So is Peja...who has a few more records and awards than Troy Murphy:

3-time NBA All-Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Star_Game): (2002, 2003, 2004)
2-time NBA Three-point Shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-point_Shootout) Champion: (2002, 2003)
4th in NBA history in free-throw percentage at .8949<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-8>[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-8)</SUP>
5th in NBA history in 3-pointers made with 1,556<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-9>[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-9)</SUP>
6th in NBA playoff history in free-throw percentage at .903<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-10>[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-10)</SUP>
11th in NBA history in 3-pointers attempted with 3,846<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-11>[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-11)</SUP>
18th in NBA history in 3-point field goal percentage at .4033<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-12>[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-12)</SUP>
Not only is Murphy no all-star even in the best year of his career, he would not start on many teams in the NBA. The fact he has numbers (at least in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters) on a bad team is simply not impressive.

Country Boy
03-07-2009, 07:34 PM
Troy's a fine shooter. This is not about Troy being bad. This is about comparing a good shooter having the best year of his career on a bad team to a great shooter who has played on competitive teams throughout his career. Troy is a good shooter. Reggie Miller is a great shooter. So is Peja...who has a few more records and awards than Troy Murphy:

3-time NBA All-Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Star_Game): (2002, 2003, 2004)
2-time NBA Three-point Shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-point_Shootout) Champion: (2002, 2003)
4th in NBA history in free-throw percentage at .8949<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-8>[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-8)</SUP>
5th in NBA history in 3-pointers made with 1,556<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-9>[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-9)</SUP>
6th in NBA playoff history in free-throw percentage at .903<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-10>[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-10)</SUP>
11th in NBA history in 3-pointers attempted with 3,846<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-11>[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-11)</SUP>
18th in NBA history in 3-point field goal percentage at .4033<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-12>[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-12)</SUP>
Not only is Murphy no all-star even in the best year of his career, he would not start on many teams in the NBA. The fact he has numbers (at least in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters) on a bad team is simply not impressive.

The same could be said about by your Mr. franchise guy in your avitar. Look, now matter what Troy does you and others will but and but and but he can't do this or that, it is almost comical the extent that he is being scrutinized.

rexnom
03-07-2009, 07:39 PM
Troy's a fine shooter. This is not about Troy being bad. This is about comparing a good shooter having the best year of his career on a bad team to a great shooter who has played on competitive teams throughout his career. Troy is a good shooter. Reggie Miller is a great shooter. So is Peja...who has a few more records and awards than Troy Murphy:

3-time NBA All-Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Star_Game): (2002, 2003, 2004)
2-time NBA Three-point Shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-point_Shootout) Champion: (2002, 2003)
4th in NBA history in free-throw percentage at .8949<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-8">[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-8)</sup>
5th in NBA history in 3-pointers made with 1,556<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-9">[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-9)</sup>
6th in NBA playoff history in free-throw percentage at .903<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-10">[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-10)</sup>
11th in NBA history in 3-pointers attempted with 3,846<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-11">[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-11)</sup>
18th in NBA history in 3-point field goal percentage at .4033<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-12">[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-12)</sup>

Not only is Murphy no all-star even in the best year of his career, he would not start on many teams in the NBA. The fact he has numbers (at least in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters) on a bad team is simply not impressive.
But then again, you're citing history. None of this proves that Peja is better than Troy right now.

Quis
03-07-2009, 09:20 PM
Troy Murphy's getting some love on the front page of the RealGM forums: http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=888565

BlueNGold
03-08-2009, 12:45 AM
But then again, you're citing history. None of this proves that Peja is better than Troy right now.

I doubt Peja is better than Troy right now. Injuries and age have caught up with him. He's declining. However, just as I would not compare Troy to Larry Bird, I would not compare him to Peja either. Bird and Peja are simply much better players. Perhaps I should use the word "were". I guess you could make the same argument that Troy is better than Bird right now, but seriously, what meaning do you get out of that?

Anyway, just be sure to let me know when Troy makes the all-star team. Apparently he has a few votes here...

Country Boy
03-10-2009, 12:44 PM
Yeah I know we have talked this topic to death, however while listening to the Dan Dakich show this morning Mark Boyle made the comment that he thought that Murphy would be more valuable than Tim Duncan with the present system that the Pacer's now run. He more or less said as long as JOB's system is being run than there is no one better out there that the Pacers could get that would be better than what Troy gives them. That has been my contention all along, posters keep saying we need an upgrade over Murphy, and I keep saying to them, who? So as long as JOB is here, Murph is your man.

Both Boyle and Dakich had NOTHING NEGATIVE to say about Troy and the job he has done this season.:)

d_c
03-10-2009, 02:06 PM
I doubt Peja is better than Troy right now. Injuries and age have caught up with him. He's declining. However, just as I would not compare Troy to Larry Bird, I would not compare him to Peja either. Bird and Peja are simply much better players. Perhaps I should use the word "were". I guess you could make the same argument that Troy is better than Bird right now, but seriously, what meaning do you get out of that?

Anyway, just be sure to let me know when Troy makes the all-star team. Apparently he has a few votes here...

Yep. Murphy has been the better player the past couple months and probably overall this year. But looking at their careers in general (and Peja is now on the downside of his), it's not even close.

Peja has been an all-star, was an all-star for a contending team and was for a period of few years one of the best 2-3 shooters in the game. Murphy hasn't come close to coming close to touching any of that.

Quis
03-10-2009, 02:28 PM
This isn't anything new. Murphy's put up similar production with the Warriors, although his percentages this year are fantastic - his FG and 3P percentages are the best of his career, by far. In fact, he has the 7th best True Shooting Percentage amongst the league's power forwards (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=tsp&qual=true&pos=pf&seasonType=2&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dtsp%26qual%3dtr ue%26pos%3dpf%26seasonType%3d2). I know this may upset certain members of this forum, but the truth is he's one of the more productive power forwards in the league, regardless of how unconventional his game may be.

Anthem
03-10-2009, 05:11 PM
Anthem - I looked at the stats before making the statement. It was a bit shocking but the reason I followed through is because I believe Peja has faced much tighter defense. While Peja contends with quick, athletic defenders at the 3 spot who can chase him around the perimeter, Troy camps out at the 3 point line while real PF's tend to stay closer to the paint and are not at all accustomed to guarding the 3 pt line. ...and even if they were, they are not likely to be able to apply the perimeter pressure a SF can apply.
See, I go the other way with it. Peja gets the benefit of playing on a team with Chris Paul... who takes the heat off of Murphy?

ABADays
03-10-2009, 05:31 PM
Troy's a fine shooter. This is not about Troy being bad. This is about comparing a good shooter having the best year of his career on a bad team to a great shooter who has played on competitive teams throughout his career. Troy is a good shooter. Reggie Miller is a great shooter. So is Peja...who has a few more records and awards than Troy Murphy:

3-time NBA All-Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Star_Game): (2002, 2003, 2004)
2-time NBA Three-point Shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-point_Shootout) Champion: (2002, 2003)
4th in NBA history in free-throw percentage at .8949<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-8">[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-8)</sup>
5th in NBA history in 3-pointers made with 1,556<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-9">[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-9)</sup>
6th in NBA playoff history in free-throw percentage at .903<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-10">[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-10)</sup>
11th in NBA history in 3-pointers attempted with 3,846<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-11">[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-11)</sup>
18th in NBA history in 3-point field goal percentage at .4033<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-12">[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predrag_Stojakovic#cite_note-12)</sup>

Not only is Murphy no all-star even in the best year of his career, he would not start on many teams in the NBA. The fact he has numbers (at least in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters) on a bad team is simply not impressive.

Well, I'm pretty impressed. And for those who state Peja is facing better defense I would only say there must be a lot stupid coaches in the NBA if they are ignoring Troy.

BlueNGold
03-10-2009, 06:23 PM
See, I go the other way with it. Peja gets the benefit of playing on a team with Chris Paul... who takes the heat off of Murphy?

I don't think teams take the Pacers seriously enough to apply much pressure...at least in the first 3 quarters where Murphy racks up his numbers. They know they can just step it up in the 4th quarter or make a huge, historic comeback like Philly did and still win the game. This has been the pattern all season long.

BlueNGold
03-10-2009, 06:37 PM
Yeah I know we have talked this topic to death, however while listening to the Dan Dakich show this morning Mark Boyle made the comment that he thought that Murphy would be more valuable than Tim Duncan with the present system that the Pacer's now run. He more or less said as long as JOB's system is being run than there is no one better out there that the Pacers could get that would be better than what Troy gives them. That has been my contention all along, posters keep saying we need an upgrade over Murphy, and I keep saying to them, who? So as long as JOB is here, Murph is your man.

Both Boyle and Dakich had NOTHING NEGATIVE to say about Troy and the job he has done this season.:)

Very interesting quote. I guess Murphy does shoot the 3 a lot better than Duncan. ...so I get what Mark is saying, but I don't think there is any way that having Tim Duncan on your team instead of Troy Murphy could possibly make you worse. Perhaps on offense I could buy it, but not on defense.

By the way, in a sense there is nothing negative to say about the job Murphy has done this season. He has given 100% and deserves praise for that. The fact he has worked hard, represented the franchise well off the court and produced should be respected. That part I think most of us can agree on.

BlueNGold
03-10-2009, 09:56 PM
I don't think teams take the Pacers seriously enough to apply much pressure...at least in the first 3 quarters where Murphy racks up his numbers. They know they can just step it up in the 4th quarter or make a huge, historic comeback like Philly did and still win the game. This has been the pattern all season long.

When was this posted? A half hour before the game...

:D

d_c
03-10-2009, 10:48 PM
I don't think teams take the Pacers seriously enough to apply much pressure...at least in the first 3 quarters where Murphy racks up his numbers. They know they can just step it up in the 4th quarter or make a huge, historic comeback like Philly did and still win the game. This has been the pattern all season long.

You honestly won't know the extent of that kind of stuff unless you get info from how an opposing team scouts your players.

For example, one of the Sacramento assistant coaches said that when they play the against the Blazers, the opposing player they gameplan their strategy around isn't Brandon Roy; it's actually Lamarcus Aldridge.

That says more about the value/impact of Aldridge than any season statline or boxscore ever will.

duke dynamite
03-11-2009, 12:03 AM
Hmm, I like Troy even more after that first half...

CableKC
03-11-2009, 12:38 AM
If there is anytime that his trade value is up...it will be this offseason. I'm wondering if he would produce the same type of #s on a much slower paced half-court offense like the Spurs or the Celtics.

I think that this has been asked before.....but is Murphy's #s a bi-product of the offensive system that we use?

Or would he be as effective in an offense where there is a dominant Center controlling the paint?

Naptown_Seth
03-11-2009, 01:07 AM
I hope we trade him only because I'd rather have a guy with worse numbers but who plays good or very good defense in the paint (and can score there, too) than what Troy brings. That's not a criticism of Troy, but rather my personal preference.
I agree.

I think if TJ, Jack, Rush, Danny and Quis are putting up shots from the outside a lot, then doesn't the team need someone in there to get a few boards?

Troy is great from deep, but ultimately how does that compliment what other players do? When Perkins camped the arc it was with Jax posting up the PG and Dale working the glass.

This team has almost no power presence on the inside. Not only that, but a guy like Dale can protect other foul prone bigs (ahem, Hibbert) as well as clean up mistakes by the guards. If Troy was the one guy lingering the outside then maybe, but he's not.

And honestly the "don't know what you got". I do know, I just watched Okur do Troy's game but one step better. Okur gets other players shots. Okur INTENTIONALLY gave up the outside mismatch on Hibbert when he had 5 fouls in order to reset on him with a post up that he could cross the lane knowing the kid was either going to foul out or play him soft.

There's also such a thing as overvaluing a hometown player.



You honestly won't know the extent of that kind of stuff unless you get info from how an opposing team scouts your players.You could see a change in how they played Troy after he hit his 7th. They shut that down hard after that. As a guy sitting near me said, the problem is that Troy can't get his own shot. The Pacers goofed around trying to run pick and fades after his 7th to get more shots and it all ended up being forced and off track and killed the offense a bit.

I love his 3pt shot, obviously at that PCT, and I love to see the ball hit his hands with him open. But that's not always an easy situation to create and chasing after it can have it's own consequences. I also didn't like seeing Okur go right at him at times without any resistance.


By the way, in a sense there is nothing negative to say about the job Murphy has done this season. He has given 100% and deserves praise for that. The fact he has worked hard, represented the franchise well off the court and produced should be respected. That part I think most of us can agree on.Completely agree.

Naptown_Seth
03-11-2009, 01:20 AM
But then again, you're citing history. None of this proves that Peja is better than Troy right now.
Remember that time that Troy came curling off a baseline screen to catch and shoot just above a defenders arms from the arc late in a game?

Me neither.

Let's take the ridiculous comparison of Troy and Peja off the board. Troy shoots the 3 as the trailer that the other team forgot about. Are they dumb to forget about him, sure, but if you need a shot out of a traditional half court set it's tough to get him the ball.

If you can, great, but Peja, like Reggie, Rip, Ray Allen and other great shooters, was able to get himself open without the ball handler having to do much work at all, certainly not play pick and fade games over and over waiting for the defense to go under too far one time.


What Troy does do he's doing great this season. But Blueand Gold and some others are questioning how valuable those specific skills are to this roster

d_c
03-11-2009, 02:23 AM
You could see a change in how they played Troy after he hit his 7th. They shut that down hard after that. As a guy sitting near me said, the problem is that Troy can't get his own shot. The Pacers goofed around trying to run pick and fades after his 7th to get more shots and it all ended up being forced and off track and killed the offense a bit.

I love his 3pt shot, obviously at that PCT, and I love to see the ball hit his hands with him open. But that's not always an easy situation to create and chasing after it can have it's own consequences. I also didn't like seeing Okur go right at him at times without any resistance.


Correct. Peja or Rip Hamilton in their primes were able to bomb away, but always do so in the flow the offense. It wasn't just about getting hot and force feeding them the ball.

With Murphy, he's basically a spot up, isolation or trailer shooter, but he's not a guy you can run plays for in the halfcourt. When you can run shooters off screens and curls, it just makes you much more unpredictable and difficult to defend against. With Murphy, it's just giving him the ball and hoping he's hot.

That's not to take away from the season that Murphy is having (he's playing about as well as he can), but you just can't confuse the threats that guys like Peja, Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton posed on a defense to what Murphy poses. It's just not the same.

Will Galen
03-11-2009, 02:29 AM
Yeah I know we have talked this topic to death, however while listening to the Dan Dakich show this morning Mark Boyle made the comment that he thought that Murphy would be more valuable than Tim Duncan with the present system that the Pacer's now run. He more or less said as long as JOB's system is being run than there is no one better out there that the Pacers could get that would be better than what Troy gives them. That has been my contention all along, posters keep saying we need an upgrade over Murphy, and I keep saying to them, who? So as long as JOB is here, Murph is your man.

My feeling is we don't need a power forward to replace Murphy we just need another big that can post up. Roy could develop into that guy or we could trade for one, or get one in the draft.

People are saying how good Troy would be with Howard, well he would be equally good if we had our own young Howard.

Will Galen
03-11-2009, 02:39 AM
What Troy does do he's doing great this season. But Blueand Gold and some others are questioning how valuable those specific skills are to this roster

And what did Mark Boyle say?

imawhat
03-11-2009, 03:03 AM
Mark Boyle is probably correct, but the only reason we have this system is because we don't have a Tim Duncan. It's a vicious cycle.

Naptown_Seth
03-11-2009, 05:37 PM
Mark Boyle is probably correct, but the only reason we have this system is because we don't have a Tim Duncan. It's a vicious cycle.
Well, it's a coaching choice too.

Look, let me take blind bashing of JOB off the table and let's face some facts.

Is Troy JOB's type of guy? Danny? Dun? Are these guys scoring like Pierce and Walker did from deep in Boston...yes, and at a much better PCT in fact.

But the team is NOT WINNING. That's the bottom line. To get better you have two options:

1) give the coach players that work his system even better

2) get better players that don't fit this system and replace the coach with one that fits those new players better

So for #1 we should look at the top 7-8 rotation guys and name the players that could be acquired in the next 3-4 years that would be better than the current ones in THIS system.

TJ
*Dun
*Granger
*Murphy
Rasho
Jack
Quis
Foster
* = seemingly perfect match with system

Okay, well you aren't waiting on Rush per se because technically a healthy team is mostly leaning on DG and Dun up front with Quis off the bench. Can Rush do more than Quis has brought THIS YEAR? Maybe, but given the defense and inside scoring it's tough.

Hibbert for Rasho. Okay, that's defense with scoring instead of just scoring. Roy's not there yet but maybe in 2 years he will be. How many wins will that upgrade be worth?

TJ as the starting PG. Who can you get that will run it better? I think you can upgrade, but not by a ton. Jack is not an upgrade, he's just different.

Jack as backup PG. Seems about as good as you'd expect for that role.

Foster as backup big. For this system a shooter would be better I'd think, but Larry locking him up suggests that JOB was fine with how Jeff fits the system. He's certainly been okay with playing him and Jeff has responded with a decent mid-jumper.


So Dun returns and really blows away what Quis did as a starter (doubtful given defensive play in the mix), you improve the backup wing by a fair chuck, you get mild improvements at the PG spots, mild improvements at the backup big spot.


You aren't getting Dirk for the Rasho spot, or so it would seem. You aren't getting Chris Paul at PG. Does Milsap for Foster make enough difference? Maybe? I'm not sure either way.

Bottom line is this - are these guys really screwing up JOB's system so bad that instead of being a 55 win system it's a 35 win system? If the answer is yes, tell me (and them) who to get to solve this problem (realistic acquistions only).

I'm fine to wait through 2 more bad seasons if the big homerun year is just past that.

Will Galen
03-11-2009, 08:05 PM
Bottom line is this - are these guys really screwing up JOB's system so bad that instead of being a 55 win system it's a 35 win system? If the answer is yes, tell me (and them) who to get to solve this problem (realistic acquistions only).

Almost half the team was new this year, that has a lot to do with it, but they are improving. I think as of right night the team has developed into a 42 win team. We are one game over .500 since the start of the year.

We have also lost a ton of close games. However we seem to be winning our share of them now. If next year we could just reverse the close game win-lost ratio, we would probably be several games over .500. Add a bit of improvement and we could be a 50 win team next year. And that's with no acquistions.

We can score enough points, so if we pick someone up in the draft that can play post defense, that would make us a bit better too.

Hicks
03-11-2009, 08:14 PM
I'd add that the majority of this team's losses were not blowouts, either. This isn't a run-of-the-mill sub-.500 team. It could have easily gone much better than this. That doesn't mean I think they're a very good team, but I think they're close to being a good team, but that's the NBA. Sometimes the line is that thin between a good team and a bad team.

BlueNGold
03-11-2009, 09:58 PM
Remember that time that Troy came curling off a baseline screen to catch and shoot just above a defenders arms from the arc late in a game?

Me neither.

Let's take the ridiculous comparison of Troy and Peja off the board. Troy shoots the 3 as the trailer that the other team forgot about. Are they dumb to forget about him, sure, but if you need a shot out of a traditional half court set it's tough to get him the ball.

If you can, great, but Peja, like Reggie, Rip, Ray Allen and other great shooters, was able to get himself open without the ball handler having to do much work at all, certainly not play pick and fade games over and over waiting for the defense to go under too far one time.


What Troy does do he's doing great this season. But Blueand Gold and some others are questioning how valuable those specific skills are to this roster

Yes, I am questioning how valuable his skills are...but more generally on any roster as a starting PF. When others see him racking up rebounds and nailing 3 pointers, I see him soft and slow on defense...and easy to shut down on offense when it counts in the 4th quarter.

I couldn't care less how many points he makes in the first half. It's truly meaningless statistics when everyone should know by now that the Pacers and their opponents only play offense the first 3 quarters. It's just a game, you know. The Utah game is a great example. You could see when the discipline returned...and the defense button was pressed. The color of their uniforms could have changed and it would not have been more apparent.

Everyone talks about the 4th quarter collapses, but hardly anyone recognizes why it happens. It happens for two reasons. First, the other team turns up the defensive intensity. Second, while the Pacers offense seems potent, it wilts under defensive pressure...particularly a tired, slow Troy Murphy.

Anyway, when I see Troy, I see iron pyrite.....that is, fool's gold. Nice and shiny. Looks like the real thing...certainly on paper. But it's just not real. I respect others views on his game and am not inferring anyone is foolish by saying this.

rm1369
03-11-2009, 11:09 PM
Yes, I am questioning how valuable his skills are...but more generally on any roster as a starting PF. When others see him racking up rebounds and nailing 3 pointers, I see him soft and slow on defense...and easy to shut down on offense when it counts in the 4th quarter.

I couldn't care less how many points he makes in the first half. It's truly meaningless statistics when everyone should know by now that the Pacers and their opponents only play offense the first 3 quarters. It's just a game, you know. The Utah game is a great example. You could see when the discipline returned...and the defense button was pressed. The color of their uniforms could have changed and it would not have been more apparent.

Everyone talks about the 4th quarter collapses, but hardly anyone recognizes why it happens. It happens for two reasons. First, the other team turns up the defensive intensity. Second, while the Pacers offense seems potent, it wilts under defensive pressure...particularly a tired, slow Troy Murphy.

Anyway, when I see Troy, I see iron pyrite.....that is, fool's gold. Nice and shiny. Looks like the real thing...certainly on paper. But it's just not real. I respect others views on his game and am not inferring anyone is foolish by saying this.

I agree 100%. It will be interesting if the Pacers make the playoffs. I am certain Troy's numbers, especially scoring, will drop off dramatically. His offensive game is primarily based on being "forgotten" and, as you an Seth say, is easily defended by anyone caring or paying attention. I'd look at his career playoff numbers, but Troy's team has never made the playoffs :smile:

Seriously, Troy is having a great year. It's hard to ask for more from him because he's giving everything he has. I just believe most teams, including the Pacers, would be better off with someone less "unique" - regardless of how well he fits JOBs 3 pt happy system.

Country Boy
03-12-2009, 08:18 AM
Yes, I am questioning how valuable his skills are...but more generally on any roster as a starting PF. When others see him racking up rebounds and nailing 3 pointers, I see him soft and slow on defense...and easy to shut down on offense when it counts in the 4th quarter.

I couldn't care less how many points he makes in the first half. It's truly meaningless statistics when everyone should know by now that the Pacers and their opponents only play offense the first 3 quarters. It's just a game, you know. The Utah game is a great example. You could see when the discipline returned...and the defense button was pressed. The color of their uniforms could have changed and it would not have been more apparent.

Everyone talks about the 4th quarter collapses, but hardly anyone recognizes why it happens. It happens for two reasons. First, the other team turns up the defensive intensity. Second, while the Pacers offense seems potent, it wilts under defensive pressure...particularly a tired, slow Troy Murphy.

Anyway, when I see Troy, I see iron pyrite.....that is, fool's gold. Nice and shiny. Looks like the real thing...certainly on paper. But it's just not real. I respect others views on his game and am not inferring anyone is foolish by saying this.


Yeah, that's the tune! Bash bash bash bash! Open your eyes and look around the court, do you see Dun, or Danny on the floor in the fourth quarter? That's right, it is Troy by himself trying to carry the team. It is easy to shut down one player if he has no one else to help carry the offensive load. Hell, Jordan would be shut down if he was in Troy's position. Yeah there is fool's gold and fool's who try to pass it off as the real thing, opinions that is.

duke dynamite
03-12-2009, 09:29 AM
To BlueNGold:

How can you tell me scoring points in the first half doesn't matter? The point of playing the game is to score points. Whether he scored in the third or fourth quarters, it matters that he scored period.

Calling it a useless statistic...fine. But its a measurement that helps show the momentum of a player going into the second half.

BlueNGold
03-12-2009, 07:07 PM
To BlueNGold:

How can you tell me scoring points in the first half doesn't matter? The point of playing the game is to score points. Whether he scored in the third or fourth quarters, it matters that he scored period.

Calling it a useless statistic...fine. But its a measurement that helps show the momentum of a player going into the second half.

I said his points in the first half didn't matter because no defense is being played by either team until late in the game. This explains the dichotomy of the Pacers league leading offense yet their bad record with numerous late game collapses. It all makes perfect sense from my perspective.

Remember when we were perennial contenders and played down to the opposition? Well, we are on the other side of the coin now. I know it's hard to believe, but teams are playing down to us now. They are not taking the Pacers all that seriously. You know how it is when the Lakers are in town? Well, the Pacers are not the Lakers. As a result, the game is not real until the 4th quarter...and strangely...about that time certain great players on the team often mysteriously disappear. Sorry if this is not breaking news...

Maybe I'm asking for too much. I've never meant this to bash Murphy because I actually like him. I am actually glad he's on the team. We could use him as a #6-#10 guy. I just want the Pacers to have a realistic shot at making the playoffs and truly pushing good teams. I don't think that's realistic as we are presently constructed and coached.

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-12-2009, 07:34 PM
BlueNGold has a valid point. I remember looking at a stat that said the Pacers lead the league in 1st quarter scoring, and I believe we're also top 3 in 1st half scoring. This correlates with BlueNGold's point because our scoring only goes down from there.

I'd be very interested to see our avg points for each quarter, not just as a team but for the individual players as well. Who starts off strong and dies down, and who steps up when it's most needed in the 4th?

Will Galen
03-13-2009, 07:54 AM
This explains the dichotomy of the Pacers league leading offense yet their bad record with numerous late game collapses. It all makes perfect sense from my perspective.

Ah ha! I see the problem! Your perspective is skewered, because the Pacers don't have the league's leading offense.

(wink)

aceace
06-25-2009, 11:44 AM
Murphy ranked 18th best in NBA for FIC . +49 on the RV (he's underpaid)


http://www.realgm.com/src_playerrankings.php?season=2008-2009&filter=Regular+Season&highlight=

FIC: The Floor Impact Counter (FIC) used here is modified by RealGM's Christopher Reina to give more value to assists and blocks, differentiate between offensive and defensive rebounds (offensive being more valuable) and slightly reduces the value of missed field goals and free throws.
FIC40: The Floor Impact Counter (FIC) adjusted over 40 minutes.
RV: The difference between a player's deserved salary based off the Floor Impact Counter (FIC) and actual salary.

count55
06-25-2009, 11:46 AM
Nothing good will come of this.

duke dynamite
06-25-2009, 11:48 AM
Nothing good will come of this.
I would like to hear how some of the newer members would evaluate him.

cdash
06-25-2009, 12:00 PM
I guess I qualify as a newer member, so I'll chime in. I actually posted a similar thread to this over at RealGM and it was met with similar reactions to the ones I have read in this thread. Personally, I feel like we should sell high on him. His numbers are better than his actual impact on the game. You can throw stats at me all day, but I watched almost every Pacer game this year, and Murphy just doesn't make a great impact on the game. He wrestles rebounds away from teammates at least 2-3 times a game. He plays awful defense. The majority of his points came as the trailer on the break, where he would spot up and hit the three from the top of the key. I'm not saying I want to trade him just for the sake of trading him, but I think it would be in our best interest to see what kind of deals we can get for him. He has a history of nagging injuries, and I think his value will never be higher. Perhaps of greater importance, I don't think he is a part of the future here. We aren't going to be an elite team in the East with him making $10+ million per year as our starting power forward. Just my opinion.

rexnom
06-25-2009, 12:04 PM
I think we almost have to trade him. We don't think about this a lot but Danny will be 28 by the time all these guys expire in '11. That gives us, what, a three year window?

count55
06-25-2009, 12:06 PM
I would like to hear how some of the newer members would evaluate him.

OK, that's fair, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who is sure that this will degenerate into the same tired arguments about "real" rebounds, "stolen" rebounds, etc.

Look, I've been a pretty consistent defender of Troy, and I believe that he deserves a ton of respect for basically giving us everything he had every night and having a great season.

However, the premise that he's "underpaid" simply isn't supportable. Yes, this nice little formula says it, but it is completely incapable of factoring in defensive performance, among other things.

It also cannot defeat the argument that, if Troy were a Free Agent today, absolutely no one, including us, would offer him $23mm over the next two years.

Trader Joe
06-25-2009, 12:06 PM
I think if a good deal comes along for Troy you have to consider it. Even with his great season, he is still over paid and his defense really is truly awful.

beast23
06-25-2009, 12:58 PM
What I would say about Murphy is that I do not believe his worth as a contributing player has ever been higher than it is right now. He was what, 2nd or 3rd in rebounding this year? From purely a statistical standpoint, including points, rebounding, shooting, etc., I don't believe he will ever perform better than he did this season.

So, using the old saying of "buy low, sell high", the Pacers are not likley to get more for him than they could get this summer. If they have the inclination to entertain offers, this summer would be a great time to do it.

I'm not saying I support the notion, but he is one of just 3 or 4 players that we have (and might be willing to part with) that could be traded to bring back a player of value in return. IMO, the others are Foster, Ford and a potential sign-and-trade of Jack.

If Murphy is not traded this summer, unless he performs similarly next season we would not be able to get as much in return for him until February 2011 (I believe his contract expires in 2011).

JayRedd
06-25-2009, 02:48 PM
Nobody in this League wants to pay Troy Murphy $11 million.

Since86
06-25-2009, 02:56 PM
Nobody in this League wants to pay Troy Murphy $11 million.

Somebody has. Twice.

Teams take on bad contracts all the time. Unfortunately, those teams usually happen to be the Pacers.

d_c
06-25-2009, 03:00 PM
Somebody has. Twice.


Understand that the 2nd time it happened, you guys unloaded a player you wanted to throw off a bridge and gained a guy who, at the time, was still a coveted prospect.

Trophy
06-25-2009, 03:02 PM
He's not going anywhere this summer.

He's a valuable PF for this team and fits in well with the other players who play pretty similar to him.

JayRedd
06-25-2009, 03:04 PM
Somebody has. Twice.

Teams take on bad contracts all the time. Unfortunately, those teams usually happen to be the Pacers.

I'm not saying no one will do it. I'm just saying that nobody wants to do it. That speaks to his value. As good as his numbers were this season, he is still a net negative asset to most everyone with maybe a few GMs seeing him as a "push" asset.

d_c
06-25-2009, 03:04 PM
He's not going anywhere this summer.

You'd be correct about that.

Trophy
06-25-2009, 03:06 PM
You'd be correct about that.

I'm happy to hear that.

Since86
06-25-2009, 03:09 PM
Understand that the 2nd time it happened, you guys unloaded a player you wanted to throw off a bridge and gained a guy who, at the time, was still a coveted prospect.

I fully understand it. I would rather pay Troy what he's getting than have to cut a check to Ben Wallace. :puke:

PacerDude
06-25-2009, 03:12 PM
He's a valuable PF for this team and fits in well with the other players who play pretty similar to him.Unfortunately, that style of play is solely offense and no defense.

Lance George
06-25-2009, 03:12 PM
Say what you want about his defense, but he brings it in spades everywhere else. A mismatch nightmare on offense (he was practically unguardable this past season), a very good rebounder, and an above average passer for his position as well. Dirk Nowitzki and Rashard Lewis have proven that non-traditional power forwards can be major cogs in great teams. Now I know Troy is no Dirk, but he was every bit as productive as Shard was this season, perhaps more so.

I'd put Murphy's current value at around nine-million.

d_c
06-25-2009, 03:16 PM
Say what you want about his defense, but he brings it in spades everywhere else. A mismatch nightmare on offense (he was practically unguardable this past season), a very good rebounder, and an above average passer for his position as well. Dirk Nowitzki and Rashard Lewis have proven that non-traditional power forwards can be major cogs in great teams. Now I know Troy is no Dirk, but he was every bit as productive as Shard was this season, perhaps more so.

I'd put Murphy's current value at around nine-million.

Murphy is not a mismatch nightmare. If he could post up on a 6'5" guard, I would agree. As it is, opposing teams can go small on the Pacers with impunity because they don't worry about matching up with Murphy.

He's not a guy teams worry much about when they game plan. He hit 7 three pointers in the 1st half against Utah. Then when the Jazz decided to take that away from him in the 2nd half, he made none.

Murphy is a solid role playing contributor, but not exactly a guy opposing teams worry about when they play the Pacers. The Odoms, Hedos and Rashards of the world are examples of real mismatch problems.

Country Boy
06-25-2009, 03:25 PM
Murphy is not a mismatch nightmare. If he could post up on a 6'5" guard, I would agree. As it is, opposing teams can go small on the Pacers with impunity because they don't worry about matching up with Murphy.

He's not a guy teams worry much about when they game plan. He hit 7 three pointers in the 1st half against Utah. Then when the Jazz decided to take that away from him in the 2nd half, he made none.

Murphy is a solid role playing contributor, but not exactly a guy opposing teams worry about when they play the Pacers. The Odoms, Hedos and Rashards of the world are examples of real mismatch problems.

All teams make adjustments on certain players in the course of a game. The last time I checked Murph had 4 other teamates who could have and should have stepped up in the situation you described. Saying he can't post up a 6foot 5 inch gaurd in some situations won't win you many debates unless fiction is the guideline.

d_c
06-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Saying he can't post up a 6foot 5 inch gaurd in some situations won't win you many debates unless fiction is the guideline.

Murphy can't post up. He can't post up small guys and he can't post up big guys. I watched this guy for 5.5 years on a regular basis and he can't post up. Period. It's the same thing as saying that I'm pretty sure Shaq wasn't good at hitting mid-range jumpers.

Lance George
06-25-2009, 03:45 PM
If opposing teams aren't worried about a guy who's 6'11" and was second in the league in three point shooting while putting up around 15 points a game then that's their own stupidity. Admittedly he's a little bit one-dimensional offensively, but when that one-dimension is as effective as Murphy's shooting is, that's all you need. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

As for that Jazz game, I'd have to see it for myself. How do we know it wasn't just a bad half? Looking at his numbers in our two games vs the Jazz, he actually produced above average vs them.

Murphy vs Utah
17.5 ppg
11.5 rpg
3.5 apg
1.5 spg
1 bpg
.524 (11-21) FG%
.692 (9-13) 3%

Trophy
06-25-2009, 03:48 PM
Unfortunately, that style of play is solely offense and no defense.

That's why Bird is looking for a backup defensive PF. He likes Troy playing PF and is still willing to keep him at PF.

Trophy
06-25-2009, 03:50 PM
If opposing teams aren't worried about a guy who's 6'11" and was second in the league in three point shooting while putting up around 15 points a game then that's their own stupidity. Admittedly he's a little bit one-dimensional offensively, but when that one-dimension is as effective as Murphy's shooting is, that's all you need. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

As for that Jazz game, I'd have to see it for myself. How do we know it wasn't just a bad half? Looking at his numbers in our two games vs the Jazz, he actually produced above average vs them.

Murphy vs Utah
17.5 ppg
11.5 rpg
3.5 apg
1.5 spg
1 bpg
.524 (11-21) FG%
.692 (9-13) 3%

Troy's best comparison to me is Mehmet Okur. He is also a big man that pulls down a good amount of rebounds per game and shoots 3's. I also wouldn't say his defense is too excellent either.

PacerDude
06-25-2009, 03:50 PM
That's why Bird is looking for a backup defensive PF. He likes Troy playing PF and is still willing to keep him at PF.I don't seem to recall Larry specifically using the word backup.

Trophy
06-25-2009, 03:53 PM
I don't seem to recall Larry specifically using the word backup.

Maybe not backup, but he also didn't say he would look for a PF replacement. Just to search for another PF. He mentioned Troy's name and almost made it seem like he wants to keep him as our PF, but get another one that can play defense.

d_c
06-25-2009, 03:55 PM
If opposing teams aren't worried about a guy who's 6'11" and was second in the league in three point shooting while putting up around 15 points a game then that's their own stupidity. Admittedly he's a little bit one-dimensional offensively, but when that one-dimension is as effective as Murphy's shooting is, that's all you need. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

As for that Jazz game, I'd have to see it for myself. How do we know it wasn't just a bad half? Looking at his numbers in our two games vs the Jazz, he actually produced above average vs them.

Murphy vs Utah
17.5 ppg
11.5 rpg
3.5 apg
1.5 spg
1 bpg
.524 (11-21) FG%
.692 (9-13) 3%

BlueNGold pretty much has the same take as me on this subject.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=863231&postcount=94

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=863531&postcount=98

count55
06-25-2009, 03:55 PM
If opposing teams aren't worried about a guy who's 6'11" and was second in the league in three point shooting while putting up around 15 points a game then that's their own stupidity. Admittedly he's a little bit one-dimensional offensively, but when that one-dimension is as effective as Murphy's shooting is, that's all you need. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

As for that Jazz game, I'd have to see it for myself. How do we know it wasn't just a bad half? Looking at his numbers in our two games vs the Jazz, he actually produced above average vs them.

Murphy vs Utah
17.5 ppg
11.5 rpg
3.5 apg
1.5 spg
1 bpg
.524 (11-21) FG%
.692 (9-13) 3%

I saw it. He was lights out in the first. In the second, they basically told his man not to leave him, and he only took two shots in the second half.

PacerDude
06-25-2009, 03:55 PM
.......... but get another one that can play defense.Too bad you can usually only play one at a time.

Come on ......... you're 6'11". You're not fat. You're in decent shape. At least have the desire to play defense.

Trophy
06-25-2009, 03:56 PM
I saw it. He was lights out in the first. In the second, they basically told his man not to leave him, and he only took two shots in the second half.

7 three pointers made in a row in the 2nd quarter againe Jazz last season at home.

Trophy
06-25-2009, 03:58 PM
Too bad you can usually only play one at a time.

Come on ......... you're 6'11". You're not fat. You're in decent shape. At least have the desire to play defense.

I agree. That's something I'd want him to work on over the summer in drills with him down low on defense.

Roy is still improving as well at center and I see him being our big defensive unit down low.

PacerDude
06-25-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm not picking on you (or Troy) - well, not much - but you can't practice desire to defend. It's there or it's not. In Troy's case - it's clearly not. Wasn't in college either.

Trophy
06-25-2009, 04:13 PM
I'm not picking on you (or Troy) - well, not much - but you can't practice desire to defend. It's there or it's not. In Troy's case - it's clearly not. Wasn't in college either.

By now it can't hurt to try defensive plays for him. He just needs to have some kind of defensive knowledge. On defense he seems like he is running around too much. At least with offseason drills, he can learn not to be as nervous on defense and know a little more where to stay.

He knows where to be to get defensive rebounds though which is great.

PacerDude
06-25-2009, 04:22 PM
He knows where to be to get defensive rebounds though which is great.Yeah - near the basket. Away from his defensive assignment. :cool:

Trophy
06-25-2009, 04:46 PM
Yeah - near the basket. Away from his defensive assignment. :cool:

He's a very focused player that's what I've noticed from him. Once that ball goes up then he plays defense by boxing out for the rebound. Too bad he doesn't normally play tight defense like that.