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View Full Version : Is it me or has the demeanor of the board changed?



Speed
02-26-2009, 02:39 PM
I ask because it seems that somethings changed, recently, as far as people being either semi-disrespectful or antagonistic when posting.

This can be moved or deleted or whatever, if needed.

I know it's been a tough few years and losing is never fun.

Maybe this will fix itself.

Maybe I should take a break from PD.

I mean it's okay to disagree everything doesn't have to be lolipops, dolphins, and flowers. It's not a sewing group.

I'm not a forum hopper, I belong to one forum, this is it, so it does matter to me a bit.

I'm not trying to sound like a Nancy boy (sorry Grace) I just wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone else has noticed this or felt this way?

Again, Able or if one of the mods thinks this is inappropriate, I apologize and just delete it.

BPump33
02-26-2009, 02:41 PM
I don't really post that often, but I've been lurking for quite some time and it defnitely does seem more tense/negative on the board as of late. I think a lot of that is just from losing, but what do I know?

Dr. Goldfoot
02-26-2009, 02:41 PM
I agree with you. I'm posting less often because of it.

Since86
02-26-2009, 02:44 PM
The board has changed a lot since I've been a member. Periodically, it will shift in another direction.

That's the way it's been going for the past 5yrs I've been here, and most likely even before that.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 02:46 PM
I said something about this last night.

Speed, yes, things have really went down south lately with the attitude of many of the posters.

I cannot totally specify the blame on a particular person, but I think we have a lot of new, young fans on here that can really get excited when their opinions are not agreed upon or discouraged.

I know I have a knack of stirring controversy, so do many others.

One thing that is missed is the ignore feature. Once that was disabled, then many of the opinions or statements thrown out there are left to be read, which made people angry. It really prevented many of the arguments on this board.

Lately I have discussed with Ms. Dukie in great detail on my plans for the future if the constant bickering and displeasure remained at a constant. Along with Dr. Goldfoot, I have considered posting less often or not at all.

However, that is not a solution, just a work-around. With posters like him and others possibly cutting back or leaving for those reasons is not good for this board, because their input and opinions are much needed here. If he or others were to leave this board will be empty and would lack in what quality of discussion it brings. If everyone remembers, we are looked at as THE ultimate Pacers fan community.

Like I said yesterday, if we were to please take many of the things said with a grain of salt, then we may become at better terms with each other.

Dr. Goldfoot
02-26-2009, 02:47 PM
Right and it will shift again....and I'll still be here. Arguing.

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 02:48 PM
I think its the inevitable fallout from the losing.

Everyone is grumpy - its no fun when your team isn't very good.

The more casual fans have followed Elvis out of the building. So the ones that are left are either the hardcore fans that are taking it harder or posters that borderline on trolling just to get a reaction/ response.

Its sometimes a bit absurd to see the "I love this team" comments and the "This team sucks" comments all thrown together.

When the team is this bad, the posters that post with hearts and the posters that post with their brains can't find much middle ground to agree on.

OakMoses
02-26-2009, 02:49 PM
It does seem to have changed a bit to me. I think it's become more argumentative and less substantial. I joined before I got League Pass and I'd come on everyday after that games were over to read some fairly detailed breakdowns of the game and of individual players. Now when I read the game threads I tend to skip any post that's not at least a full paragraph and it seems like I skip about 80% of them.

LoneGranger33
02-26-2009, 02:50 PM
You also have to consider that the Pacers are not the only thing people bring to the table - no poster is defined solely by his basketball fandom. Times are tough economically, and historically people turn to sports for an outlet during such periods. Needless to say, the Pacers, with all their frustration losses and injuries, haven't been the ideal escape. Just a thought.

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 02:53 PM
You also have to consider that the Pacers are not the only thing people bring to the table - no poster is defined solely by his basketball fandom. Times are tough economically, and historically people turn to sports for an outlet during such periods. Needless to say, the Pacers, with all their frustration losses and injuries, haven't been the ideal escape. Just a thought.

True. But the Steelers were pretty good at being an ideal escape and that didn't seem to sit well with everyone else around here either.

:devil:

Trader Joe
02-26-2009, 03:01 PM
Yes, I have noticed this too.

Anthem
02-26-2009, 03:04 PM
Meh. Bunch of whiners. :devil:

Nope, I'm with you. I just don't have anything to add to the "Everything is Obie's Fault" thread, and since that's the only thing getting discussed...

It will get better. Give it another 6 weeks and we should be in good shape.

pizza guy
02-26-2009, 03:05 PM
It's just the nature of a forum like this to have up-swings and down-turns. It's ironic actually, that so many of the things that used to make (nearly) everyone happy are now the things that upset (most of) us the most. All the players who have been deemed he-whose-name-shall-not-be-mentioned used to be the ones we praised and declared supreme. The idea of rebuilding a few years ago was absurd because the Pacers had won 61 games and challenged the eventual champs more than any other opponent. Now, rebuilding is the saving grace of the franchise. We used to discuss sitting the rookies in favor of our beloved, but old, Reggie Miller. Now, our rookies better be getting as many minutes as they can handle.

The team has changed entirely since I joined this forum, and with it, the forum has changed. Add to it the economic hardships many posters face, and you get a recipe for a bunch of Mr. Grumpy Gills.

The team will improve, and so will our attitudes. It's the nature of the beast.

The one thing that cannot happen is that we can't lose the posters that drive this forum. There are a number of people whose input is valued a little higher than the rest of us. Whether it be for insight, humor, history, or just argument's sake, there are certain posters who make the forum go 'round. And those posters cannot stop posting, no matter their mood. Because the rest of us sign on everyday to see what they have to say as much as give our input.

The Pacers will be fine. And Pacers Digest will be fine. Just hang in there.

--pizza

Einstein
02-26-2009, 03:05 PM
I have been a lurker for a while, but have just begun to post. I have tried to be a positive influence.

The reason I like this forum is you can get some really good insight. I won't lie; it is also nice to come here and read opinions that follow my own. I don't feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

However, I have noticed that some posts are more about what MUST happen -- JOB being fired, the rookies getting playing time, the team tanking, etc. etc. These tend to cause friction without adding much value.

Then there is the "player X just sucks" post. That one almost always brings trouble.

My opinion is that posts with insight, examples, and assertions that are backed up tend to be better and less polarizing. If I say player X played poorly tonight because of a, b, and c, there immediately is less of an affront to people senses than "Why the hell did we ever sign so and so? He sucks! Bird must be basketball's biggest idiot ever for signing him".

I vote for a more respectful and less antagonistic PD.

Anthem
02-26-2009, 03:08 PM
I actually had a post during the preseason about avoiding unreasonable expectations because they would just make the crash all that much more frustrating. Most people said "Ah, let people have their fun if they want to be optimists." I'll have to see if I can find that.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 03:13 PM
Anthem, I can agree with that. Unfortunately for the sake of your argument, I go into each season with some form of blind optimism because that is just who I am.

When things do appear to be lost, I come back down to Earth, and then start the pattern over again looking forward to the next season.

My point is that it is not bad to be optimistic. Optimism and high expectations do not always go hand and hand. With that said, I do agree with you.

flox
02-26-2009, 03:15 PM
I actually left another Pacer board because the trolling of JO'b is ridiculous on there. While it's still pretty bad here I'd say that this board is well run and while it may seem bad there are much worse out there. I'd like to take this time to thank the people who run this board to allow it be relatively clean, civil, and filled with insight.

And it's not just the losing. Considering all the boards I'm on, it's just a negative time in general. Things are pretty sour right now almost everywhere- the Cavs and the Spurs boards are pretty negative even though they are doing great. I haven't checked Boston in a while but they seem pretty melo.

Trader Joe
02-26-2009, 03:16 PM
Duke, and I mean this as a compliment, I don't think you ever come back down to earth, if the Pacers somehow squeaked into the playoffs I think you would be convinced they would win a series or two.

Peter_sixtyftsixin
02-26-2009, 03:16 PM
I post on this forum and another one which has nothing to do with the Pacers, basketball or even sports and there have been times where that forum has gone through moments like this. I think it's like anything else involving people, it moves in a spiral. Forward, repeat some mistakes, forward, etc.

Los Angeles
02-26-2009, 03:18 PM
I agree with Since86, this is just a part of the ebb and flow of the board. It's a living thing, and it has mood swings.

But it's much more level than many boards you'll go to, particularly ones that involve such a "hot" topic (pro sports).

aceace
02-26-2009, 03:20 PM
It's everything combined: economy, so many losses by 5 points or less, rumors of Pacers moving (not going to happen), 7 new players that all of us thought would make us better, Dun injury (a surprise, when he's been virtually injury free). It's got to me also, which is why I have posted less. It's just disappointment running wild right now.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 03:22 PM
Duke, and I mean this as a compliment, I don't think you ever come back down to earth, if the Pacers somehow squeaked into the playoffs I think you would be convinced they would win a series or two.
Hehe, thanks for making my day.

Believe it or not, I do have my limits. I feel with a healthy roster, that includes Mike in it, we have a chance. Right now I have some doubts, but that is okay. I know we'll be a good team next year with what we have now.

I follow sports to see my favorite team or athlete win. Nothing else. Development is fine, but there is no harm in being good and still getting better.

For an example, I really like Tiger Woods. On ESPN radio yesterday a lot of the columnists were kind of wondering how effective he'll be. I felt yesterday that he could win his match play match even after coming from an injury. He did!

One thing that I have that gets to some people, is my over-abundance of positivity. That just goes with my belief that there is a silver lining to everything. We got beat by the Knicks, heck, Jack has his career high in points. I like when our players can play like that. Matt Kenseth wins two races in a row, well Jeff Gordon is looking so much better so far than last year. I got pulled over this morning for going 71 in a 55, I get a warning. And the State Trooper knows Ms. Dukie and is one of her clients! I lost my cat of 13 years, but I now have two young, loveable, fluffy, energetic cats to fill that void.

There always is something good that comes out of something bad. It is hard to find sometimes, but it's always worth looking for.

idioteque
02-26-2009, 03:24 PM
People are definitely grumpier on this board than they were when I first registered almost three years ago (sounds weird that I have been here that long). Back then the board seemed to be less populated and almost every poster offered thorough, interesting comments in just about every post he/she posted. Most of those quality people still remain, but a lot of people who have come on to this board later in my tenure haven't been of the same caliber of posting. Now, that is not always a bad thing, I actually consider myself more of an observer here and view myself as a second tier poster at best. Nor does that mean EVERYONE new on here is bad because we have certainly gotten some great posters here recently. But, instead of just being quiet and letting the people who watch every game carefully speak and commenting accordingly, some people have begun to post baseless, mindless drivel on here. One time I called someone out and got in trouble for it, which made sense because that is in the rules. I really have to be careful and restrain myself, if not I probably would have been banned from this board a long time ago because some of the crazier, zany posters on here drive me CRAZY.

avoidingtheclowns
02-26-2009, 03:57 PM
Maybe I should take a break from PD.

i've always blamed any and all PD hostility on you. always.


Back then the board seemed to be less populated and almost every poster offered thorough, interesting comments in just about every post he/she posted.

then i joined.


Most of those quality people still remain, but a lot of people who have come on to this board later in my tenure haven't been of the same caliber of posting.

you remembered!


I actually consider myself more of an observer here and view myself as a second tier poster at best.

major cold doesn't believe in power rankings.

Will Galen
02-26-2009, 03:58 PM
I cannot totally specify the blame on a particular person, but I think we have a lot of new, young fans on here that can really get excited when their opinions are not agreed upon or discouraged.



I agree.

I think some are here more to stir things up by having an opinion they know will be disliked by the majority, than really discussing things rationally. Plus there is way to much venting.

I've considered quitting posting. What I'm doing now is just skimming threads looking for the posters I think know what they are talking about.

Will Galen
02-26-2009, 04:01 PM
When the team is this bad, the posters that post with hearts and the posters that post with their brains can't find much middle ground to agree on.

Excellent statement, truly excellent!

Hicks
02-26-2009, 04:06 PM
It has changed, and we're aware.

It's everything that's been mentioned, and those are valid reasons for some of the behaviors. Those are the things that will ebb and flow as moods swing and change over time and with the fortunes of the Indiana Pacers.

But I will add this: There are other behaviors popping up that will not be tolerated.

Some people are arguing just because they want to argue, or being the non-verbal equivalent of loud just to be an attention whore or look good or whatever useless excuse you want to give to it. That's not going to last much longer.

Pacers Digest is not for everybody, but I'll tell you who it IS for: People who want to have discussions and exchange ideas and be civil & respectful. It's not for people to just yell and scream or argue for the sake of arguing. There's plenty of real estate on the web for that, and PD ain't it.

maragin
02-26-2009, 04:08 PM
I almost posted 3 different times in the Bull post game thread. Instead I just closed the window. I haven't had much to say on some of the more recent topics.

The other factor was the waiting and build up that we might make a move to improve our team/ future by the trade deadline. I'm not angry at the result, but sometimes you can hope to have something amazing happen. We're still on track to where I thought we would be this season (36 wins), but the glimmer of playoffs has all but faded.

I still check the board every day, I just am not planning my day around watching the game any more.

Hicks
02-26-2009, 04:12 PM
i've always blamed any and all PD hostility on you. always.



then i joined.



you remembered!



major cold doesn't believe in power rankings.

I just hope the new(er) people don't read this kind of post and assume it's someone trying to show everyone up.

I know you're kidding, but I think sometimes the level of joking (of this nature) sets the wrong tone for the ones who don't realize what's going on. I'm not blaming you, but I am asking you to help us set the example a little bit more so maybe the one's who AREN'T kidding take the hint that we're not about that here (when it's not in jest). I'd greatly appreciate it. :)

Major Cold
02-26-2009, 04:14 PM
I know that I can be sarcastic. But if I fall into this let me know and I will comply.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 04:20 PM
I just hope the new(er) people don't read this kind of post and assume it's someone trying to show everyone up.

I know you're kidding, but I think sometimes the level of joking (of this nature) sets the wrong tone for the ones who don't realize what's going on. I'm not blaming you, but I am asking you to help us set the example a little bit more so maybe the one's who AREN'T kidding take the hint that we're not about that here (when it's not in jest). I'd greatly appreciate it. :)
When it comes to things like that, I like the spoiler feature. It can be used as a mini-disclaimer.

RamBo_Lamar
02-26-2009, 04:22 PM
Maybe everyone is experiencing offcourt incident withdrawl symptoms.


:D

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 04:22 PM
I agree.

I think some are here more to stir things up by having an opinion they know will be disliked by the majority, than really discussing things rationally. Plus there is way to much venting.

I've considered quitting posting. What I'm doing now is just skimming threads looking for the posters I think know what they are talking about.
I agree.

Is it just me, or am I one of the few who doesn't get all worked up and angry after a loss? :p

Will Galen
02-26-2009, 04:27 PM
If you are a newer poster and don't know what PD can be like read the draft thread. That thread is mostly discussion, questions, and reasoned dialog. All of PD has at times had that tone.

pacergod2
02-26-2009, 04:31 PM
I really appreciate this board. I am a newer member and I have noticed this over the last several weeks. I really, sincerely hope that you all feel I contribute something positive to this board.

The one correlation I see between the attitude/pleasure on this forum is the amount of little one liners that are nothing but negative in response to another post. They are completely contradicting the flow of the threads. I hate negativity and is a big reason why I can appreciate someone like duke's (although sometimes a little loftier than I can realistically agree with :D:D) and avoiding's (always going for a laugh with an occasional serious) posts. I really have grown fond of this site, especially since I check it a couple of times a day. Can we all agree that we use more smiley faces and be a little nicer. The holier than thou routine is old and IMO doesn't have a place here. We are all Pacers fans, with an occasional DisplacedKnick. It's not like we are in a crowded bar of Lakers fans.

I live in Virginia and I have only ever run into one other Pacers fan down here. I don't have FSN Indy and rarely get to see games, so I rely heavily on this board and your opinions/insights. So thank you all.

Infinite MAN_force
02-26-2009, 04:39 PM
I'm glad this was posted. Too much venting, too much anger in the game threads, so and so sucks, so and so needs to be fired. I get sick of it real quick. It seems like all the negativity is keeping the better posters from posting more often, and actually posting informed opinions and analysis.

If the only thing your saying in your post is that somebody sucks or somebody needs fired, than you better back it up with a couple paragraphs of why, and do it in a non furious manner so it is actually readable. Too much complaining and not only that, but always the same thing over and over...

That is all... :happydanc

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm glad this was posted. Too much venting, too much anger in the game threads, so and so sucks, so and so needs to be fired. I get sick of it real quick. It seems like all the negativity is keeping the better posters from posting more often, and actually posting informed opinions and analysis.

If the only thing your saying in your post is that somebody sucks or somebody needs fired, than you better back it up with a couple paragraphs of why, and do it in a non furious manner so it is actually readable. Too much complaining and not only that, but always the same thing over and over...

That is all... :happydanc
That is one way of doing it, but there are always going to be a ton of reasons behind this. Posters have written paragraphs among paragraphs showing their displeasure for a certain player or coach. Then, it is like you said. Just one or two sentences saying for example, "JOB needs out."

Without specifically creating an example, and however the admins go about that is up to them, there is really no way to stop. People have been given a free stage to complain, and they'll use it to do so.

We play Boston Friday. There is a really good chance this one can get out of our hands. (Although I'd love to see a win.) Let's see how that goes.

JayRedd
02-26-2009, 04:48 PM
It definitely feels less substantive than it once was. It also feels more redundant, in that every topic feels like a rehashed version of what I read last week. Maybe that's cause I'm not used to being "an old-timer" (relatively) and I've now grown accustomed to what take people will have on things, but I feel like I rarely see a unique thread nowadays. Most of them may as well be a thread from two weeks ago with the word "still" added the title. That feels like a new development.

Maybe it's just the team -- I honestly have very little to say personally about anything I see happen on the court aside from "Yup, that looked about right" or "It appears that that expected event happened again" (aside from Danny's evolutionary first half, naturally). So if the team's boring, I suppose it's no surprise that this board will reflect that. And given the boredom/unoriginal thought, those who have less meaningful things to say are naturally gonna receive more attention and drive the discussion.

Or for those into the whole brevity thing...PD feels a little more "Around the Horn" these days and less "PTI." I guess that's the way most public discourse is going regardless of platform or topic -- but it would be nice if PD could remain the beacon of sensibility in a s*** storm of nonsense that it always has been during my tenure.

Since86
02-26-2009, 04:50 PM
If the only thing your saying in your post is that somebody sucks or somebody needs fired, than you better back it up with a couple paragraphs of why, and do it in a non furious manner so it is actually readable. Too much complaining and not only that, but always the same thing over and over...

That is all... :happydanc

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, it just often leads to repetitiveness.

I've thought JOb was the wrong coach for this team since day 1. I've posted many times on how his offensive and defensive philosophies contradict each other, along with his confusing player rotations, in-game management, etc.

Typing out every reason, or even a couple of them, just gets old for me to type and old for people to read. So instead, just throwing in a line like "I wish he would just get fired already" or something similiar serves it's purpose. If a poster questions why I think that, they can ask, and I'll gladly explain myself.


A lot of posters around here haven't seen anything when it comes to downright arguing. Sassan was the king at taking a two page thread, and turning it into a ten pager within a couple of hours.

sloopjohnb
02-26-2009, 04:50 PM
I just hope the new(er) people don't read this kind of post and assume it's someone trying to show everyone up.

I know you're kidding, but I think sometimes the level of joking (of this nature) sets the wrong tone for the ones who don't realize what's going on. I'm not blaming you, but I am asking you to help us set the example a little bit more so maybe the one's who AREN'T kidding take the hint that we're not about that here (when it's not in jest). I'd greatly appreciate it. :)

I am new and I picked up on the sarcasm--although it's arguable that joking in printed form can be difficult to pick up.

Since I am new to this board (just joined this season) I'll add my thoughts. I like the insight from several people here and think that this is the best website of this nature dedicated to the Pacers. I'm not knocking the other websites, just saying there is a lot of intelligence on this board.

I feel there is a good balance on this board. We have the optimists, the pessimists and everything in between.

But seriously, my only complaint is that it seems some people take this too seriously. Maybe it's just an opinion, but if one fan wants O'Brien to be fired and points to the Pacers poor defense as an example, in my opinion that's a fair argument. A decent counter-argument would be that he is signed past this season so why pay him to sit at home? This issue is one of many that will be argued and debated until the team either improves enough to silence the JOB critics or the team fires him. Same goes with the opinions of Murphy, Dunleavy, Ford, etc. We all have different opinions.

I remember my first post on this board was about a "Tinsley rumor". It was one of the many press releases that we saw pop up once a month saying, "the Pacers are shopping Tinsley..." Of course I was just excited about joining the board and making my own voice heard, etc. so I began a new thread. That thread was ridiculed immediately for having no insight--which in hindsight I agree with.

Although I took no offense to it, I have been hesitant to start another thread since then. But to be frank, I am glad for the reaction because I have really thought more in-depth about each and every post I've made since that time.

BPump33
02-26-2009, 04:50 PM
We play Boston Friday. There is a really good chance this one can get out of our hands. (Although I'd love to see a win.) Let's see how that goes.

To add on to this and this should probably go in the Ticket Promotion thread, but there is a "Pacers viewing party" at the Buffalo Wild Wings on Pendleton Pike near Oaklandon Friday night. I believe a few of the Pacemates are supposed to be there. I live about 5 minutes from there so I plan on going. Just thought I'd throw that out there to see if anyone was interested.

MrSparko
02-26-2009, 05:00 PM
It definitely feels less substantive than it once was. It also feels more redundant, in that every topic feels like a rehashed version of what I read last week. Maybe that's cause I'm not used to being "an old-timer" (relatively) and I've now grown accustomed to what take people will have on things, but I feel like I rarely see a unique thread nowadays. Most of them may as well be a thread from two weeks ago with the word "still" added the title. That feels like a new development.

Maybe it's just the team -- I honestly have very little to say personally about anything I see happen on the court aside from "Yup, that looked about right" or "It appears that that expected event happened again" (aside from Danny's evolutionary first half, naturally). So if the team's boring, I suppose it's no surprise that this board will reflect that. And given the boredom/unoriginal thought, those who have less meaningful things to say are naturally gonna receive more attention and drive the discussion.

Or for those into the whole brevity thing...PD feels a little more "Around the Horn" these days and less "PTI." I guess that's the way most public discourse is going regardless of platform or topic -- but it would be nice if PD could remain the beacon of sensibility in a s*** storm of nonsense that it always has been during my tenure.


Get a job sir.

Peter_sixtyftsixin
02-26-2009, 05:04 PM
To add on to this and this should probably go in the Ticket Promotion thread, but there is a "Pacers viewing party" at the Buffalo Wild Wings on Pendleton Pike near Oaklandon Friday night. I believe a few of the Pacemates are supposed to be there. I live about 5 minutes from there so I plan on going. Just thought I'd throw that out there to see if anyone was interested.

That is awesome.

DgR
02-26-2009, 05:13 PM
I'm not a big time poster or anything, but I've been reading threads on this board for a while now. I've learned a lot about the NBA through this board.

I actually think some of the senior posters around here can get pretty offensive. Admittedly they're very few. I respect the quality posters that don't feel the need to show off their knowledge by putting the others down. Knowing a lot about basketball doesn't make anybody a better person.

OakMoses
02-26-2009, 05:23 PM
One thing that I think is funny is that for the 2 years I've been a member, Seth has been voted "Most Offensive Poster", yet I've never found Seth offensive at all.

MrSparko
02-26-2009, 05:29 PM
How is seth offensive at all? Unless its just a running gag.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 05:29 PM
To add on to this and this should probably go in the Ticket Promotion thread, but there is a "Pacers viewing party" at the Buffalo Wild Wings on Pendleton Pike near Oaklandon Friday night. I believe a few of the Pacemates are supposed to be there. I live about 5 minutes from there so I plan on going. Just thought I'd throw that out there to see if anyone was interested.
Go ahead and post it again. It's been all over 1070 the fan all week. I just hadn't gotten around to it. That forum is for you guys, and feel free to add whatever you like.

I would love to go. Since I will be at the Supercross Saturday, I just don't know how feasible it will be.

Taterhead
02-26-2009, 05:31 PM
A buddy of mine in college used to run a baseball message board that used a rep system for this kind of thing. And it's pretty simple really. Posters rep each other for their post positively or negatively based on what they offer to the discussion. The higher your rep goes the more your positive or negative feedback affects the poster. SO for example, if (A) duke has 1000 rep points and he gives me a negative rep I would go down 10 points vs. (B) a newbie gives me some negative feedback for a post I only go down a single point. And the amount of rep you have dictates certain things on the site like access to other boards and so on. On his board I believe they had a,aa,aaa and the majors, and you had to have so many rep points to get in the "majors" board. And even if you had worked your way up to the majors, the moderator had the power to send you back down. It's a creative way to modestly influence the direction of the conversation, while allowing the long time regulars to help police the board vs. just the mod or admin. I thought it was a great idea, and he claimed it worked very well.

idioteque
02-26-2009, 05:32 PM
One thing that I think is funny is that for the 2 years I've been a member, Seth has been voted "Most Offensive Poster", yet I've never found Seth offensive at all.

I can see that in a way, even though I've never voted for him for that award. However, Seth always backs his theories and thoughts up as good as anyone on this board, and never takes it to a juvenile level.

idioteque
02-26-2009, 05:34 PM
A buddy of mine in college used to run a baseball message board that used a rep system for this kind of thing. And it's pretty simple really. Posters rep each other for their post positively or negatively based on what they offer to the discussion. The higher your rep goes the more your positive or negative feedback affects the poster. SO for example, if (A) duke has 1000 rep points and he gives me a negative rep I would go down 10 points vs. (B) a newbie gives me some negative feedback for a post I only go down a single point. And the amount of rep you have dictates certain things on the site like access to other boards and so on. On his board I believe they had a,aa,aaa and the majors, and you had to have so many rep points to get in the "majors" board. And even if you had worked your way up to the majors, the moderator had the power to send you back down. It's a creative way to modestly influence the direction of the conversation, while allowing the long time regulars to help police the board vs. just the mod or admin. I thought it was a great idea, and he claimed it worked very well.


In my opinion, that would lead to an incredible amount of drama here and ignite the powder keg faster than Gavrilo Princip.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 05:37 PM
A buddy of mine in college used to run a baseball message board that used a rep system for this kind of thing. And it's pretty simple really. Posters rep each other for their post positively or negatively based on what they offer to the discussion. The higher your rep goes the more your positive or negative feedback affects the poster. SO for example, if (A) duke has 1000 rep points and he gives me a negative rep I would go down 10 points vs. (B) a newbie gives me some negative feedback for a post I only go down a single point. And the amount of rep you have dictates certain things on the site like access to other boards and so on. On his board I believe they had a,aa,aaa and the majors, and you had to have so many rep points to get in the "majors" board. And even if you had worked your way up to the majors, the moderator had the power to send you back down. It's a creative way to modestly influence the direction of the conversation, while allowing the long time regulars to help police the board vs. just the mod or admin. I thought it was a great idea, and he claimed it worked very well.
Good concept, but I think we'd get carried away on that...lol

Taterhead
02-26-2009, 05:39 PM
In my opinion, that would lead to an incredible amount of drama here and ignite the powder keg faster than Gavrilo Princip.

In what sense? You could make it anonymous.

It's more of a way to isolate the nonsense vs. eliminate it.


Good concept, but I think we'd get carried away on that...lol

If you ask me people are getting carried away already. It's a public message board that apparently only wants certain personalities. This board is nothing more than a reflection of the world around us. The day you go through in which all you encounter is positivity and intellect is the same day you'll come here and see the same. JMO

pacergod2
02-26-2009, 05:41 PM
Silly DCpacersfan. You and your Scottish rock band references.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 05:42 PM
In what sense? You could make it anonymous.
You could, but then you have posters PMing the mods saying, "Hey! I feel like I should have a better rep! Everyone know's I'm awesome and informative!"

Like I said, it is a great concept, it just has it's flaws. There are a few people here already that like to put users in categories or tiers, which in turn becomes intimidating, and some feel like their opinions do not matter.

Moving to a system like that just screams red flag all over.

Taterhead
02-26-2009, 05:51 PM
You could, but then you have posters PMing the mods saying, "Hey! I feel like I should have a better rep! Everyone know's I'm awesome and informative!"

Like I said, it is a great concept, it just has it's flaws. There are a few people here already that like to put users in categories or tiers, which in turn becomes intimidating, and some feel like their opinions do not matter.

Moving to a system like that just screams red flag all over.

What the hell happened to all that positivity duke? :)

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 05:55 PM
What the hell happened to all that positivity duke? :)
Hehe...well, this isn't our beloved team I'm talking about. I'm talking about around here.

dannygranger
02-26-2009, 05:57 PM
All message boards have that phase. Some even are like that 100% of the time. What gets me though is that some of you who say "the board is getting negative, etc" are some of the ones contributing to it.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 06:01 PM
All message boards have that phase. Some even are like that 100% of the time. What gets me though is that some of you who say "the board is getting negative, etc" are some of the ones contributing to it.
Well, I think everything above sums it up.

You have a frustrating year, and as a fan there is nothing you can do about it. It's very easy to get on edge lately.

Yes, I can take some of the blame for this, but that doesn't mean I cannot realize my ways and try and make things better.

Will Galen
02-26-2009, 06:12 PM
A buddy of mine in college used to run a baseball message board that used a rep system for this kind of thing. And it's pretty simple really. Posters rep each other for their post positively or negatively based on what they offer to the discussion. The higher your rep goes the more your positive or negative feedback affects the poster. SO for example, if (A) duke has 1000 rep points and he gives me a negative rep I would go down 10 points vs. (B) a newbie gives me some negative feedback for a post I only go down a single point. And the amount of rep you have dictates certain things on the site like access to other boards and so on. On his board I believe they had a,aa,aaa and the majors, and you had to have so many rep points to get in the "majors" board. And even if you had worked your way up to the majors, the moderator had the power to send you back down. It's a creative way to modestly influence the direction of the conversation, while allowing the long time regulars to help police the board vs. just the mod or admin. I thought it was a great idea, and he claimed it worked very well.

I like the idea too. In other words if you want to post in the majors contribute reasoned dialog.

Los Angeles
02-26-2009, 06:35 PM
I think the first rule of PD should always be this:

Don't fix what ain't broken.

BPump33
02-26-2009, 06:36 PM
Go ahead and post it again. It's been all over 1070 the fan all week. I just hadn't gotten around to it. That forum is for you guys, and feel free to add whatever you like.

I would love to go. Since I will be at the Supercross Saturday, I just don't know how feasible it will be.

I didn't even know it was a 1070 event until I heard on Kravitz and Eddie today. It was the bartender at Bdub's that told us the other night. Either way, should be a fun time. Would love to see some fellow PDer's there.

Also, the only time I feel like I am guilty of saying something w/o truly backing up is during a game thread. I might be 25, but I still act 12 sometimes during a game, so for that I'll apologize. The TV and my computer are in different rooms so I usually type fast and then get back in there during timeouts.

I would like to add that I really do appreciate PD. I joined here b/c I was sick of reading all the comments that were posted after Pacers articles on the Star's website. I was glad to see that the whole city hadn't given up on our guys and even if I don't post that often I feel like I know some of you guys/gals b/c I read so many of your thoughts/opinions. So for that, thanks.

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 06:51 PM
A buddy of mine in college used to run a baseball message board that used a rep system for this kind of thing. And it's pretty simple really. Posters rep each other for their post positively or negatively based on what they offer to the discussion. The higher your rep goes the more your positive or negative feedback affects the poster. SO for example, if (A) duke has 1000 rep points and he gives me a negative rep I would go down 10 points vs. (B) a newbie gives me some negative feedback for a post I only go down a single point. And the amount of rep you have dictates certain things on the site like access to other boards and so on. On his board I believe they had a,aa,aaa and the majors, and you had to have so many rep points to get in the "majors" board. And even if you had worked your way up to the majors, the moderator had the power to send you back down. It's a creative way to modestly influence the direction of the conversation, while allowing the long time regulars to help police the board vs. just the mod or admin. I thought it was a great idea, and he claimed it worked very well.

We had a short-lived expiriment with this a few years ago.

While this is a public board and we welcome new members all the time, this is also a community in which we all know each other and each other's opinions.

For just one example, I know exactly what Since86 and Seth think of Carlisle, and since they're 100% wrong I continue to argue with them until I'm blue in the face. (I kid... I kid...) Anyway, we do get tired of spelling out everything about our opinions all the time so we cut to the chase, and that is probably not a good example for newer posters trying to figure out the PD community dynamics.

Back from my tangent, I think the consensus was that the reputation rating system was largely unnecessary and if anything might inadvertantly be interpreted as a signal of "who's cool around here, and who's not." Even though this is an established on-line community, we do want to welcome new posters to enhance the diversity of thought and improve the quality of discussions around here.

Peter_sixtyftsixin
02-26-2009, 06:55 PM
I joined here b/c I was sick of reading all the comments that were posted after Pacers articles on the Star's website.

I'm quite sure those people don't have souls.

Bball
02-26-2009, 06:57 PM
We had a short-lived expiriment with this a few years ago.

While this is a public board and we welcome new members all the time, this is also a community in which we all know each other and each other's opinions.

For just one example, I know exactly what Since86 and Seth think of Carlisle, and since they're 100% wrong I continue to argue with them until I'm blue in the face. (I kid... I kid...)
.

Meanwhile, you've given up the Tinsley debate with me.... :D

-Bball

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 07:06 PM
I'm glad this was posted. Too much venting, too much anger in the game threads, so and so sucks, so and so needs to be fired. I get sick of it real quick.

That's your problem - you're reading the game threads!!

:-p

Let me ask this question: is the quality perceived to be deteriorating outside of the game threads and post-game threads?

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 07:08 PM
Meanwhile, you've given up the Tinsley debate with me.... :D

-Bball

I don't know why you continue to argue with me on this topic?

:king:


:D

Haggard
02-26-2009, 07:11 PM
How is seth offensive at all? Unless its just a running gag.

he's a defensive specialist.. :)

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 07:12 PM
A) Put all the blame on me

B) Vote early and often for me as "Most Offensive Poster" in the yearly awards.

C) But Nap, there is no such category. Two words - write in.

D) Do it.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 07:17 PM
For just one example, I know exactly what Since86 and Seth think of Carlisle, and since they're 100% wrong I continue to argue with them until I'm blue in the face.
To ruin the tone with some seriousness, I've seen one thing that happens more online than in person, and that's where two people that know the score with each other are having at it in a friendly/harsh way. Some newbie sees this and thinks it's cool to interact that way not realizing all the background that's going unsaid there.

Often the posters I like most I "rip" the hardest because it's intentionally ridiculous...at least to me. But then I get a PM with "why so harsh" or someone jumps into the thread on their side or worse yet on mine and being really hostile.


I hate the whole kid gloves thing among friends, I really do. And I mean that coming back at me too. Guess that's just a style thing. But I like being able to quote a post by Anthem or JayRedd and respond with "God I hate you" and having that tone understood rather than chastised and taken totally the wrong way.

Taterhead
02-26-2009, 07:17 PM
We had a short-lived expiriment with this a few years ago.

While this is a public board and we welcome new members all the time, this is also a community in which we all know each other and each other's opinions.

For just one example, I know exactly what Since86 and Seth think of Carlisle, and since they're 100% wrong I continue to argue with them until I'm blue in the face. (I kid... I kid...) Anyway, we do get tired of spelling out everything about our opinions all the time so we cut to the chase, and that is probably not a good example for newer posters trying to figure out the PD community dynamics.

Back from my tangent, I think the consensus was that the reputation rating system was largely unnecessary and if anything might inadvertantly be interpreted as a signal of "who's cool around here, and who's not." Even though this is an established on-line community, we do want to welcome new posters to enhance the diversity of thought and improve the quality of discussions around here.

I can see that. And I would add that this board is about as tame as any I've ever seen. So I don't really think it's necessary either. Just offering an idea. I am honestly puzzled by some of the issues taken with the level of negativity. As a natural cynic it is shockingly positive around here given the circumstances.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 07:19 PM
I think the first rule of PD should always be this:

Don't fix what ain't broken.
Sorry, that's taken. It's Tinsley's first rule of life.

Hicks
02-26-2009, 07:20 PM
To ruin the tone with some seriousness, I've seen one thing that happens more online than in person, and that's where two people that know the score with each other are having at it in a friendly/harsh way. Some newbie sees this and thinks it's cool to interact that way not realizing all the background that's going unsaid there.

Often the posters I like most I "rip" the hardest because it's intentionally ridiculous...at least to me. But then I get a PM with "why so harsh" or someone jumps into the thread on their side or worse yet on mine and being really hostile.


I hate the whole kid gloves thing among friends, I really do. And I mean that coming back at me too. Guess that's just a style thing. But I like being able to quote a post by Anthem or JayRedd and respond with "God I hate you" and having that tone understood rather than chastised and taken totally the wrong way.

Easiest way around that is to use more smilies to show your intent. A few :D can go a long way.

Bball
02-26-2009, 07:21 PM
For the most part it appears to me the game thread and post game thread are usually places for venting. I don't necessarily read them for indepth game analysis. I do like a good trainwreck so I do read them. I'm curious to see if others see what I saw. I'm curious to read snippets of things I might've missed (like anything newsworthy in the post game interview which I rarely watch (especially when it's a loss because FSNI interviews the opposing team and I've usually seen enough of that team after a loss! ;)).

What I've notice lacking is things like Peck's "Odd Thoughts" that used to occur after each game or Pacer event. There was usually analysis, no punches pulled, debate, etc in those threads.

These type of postgame threads require more time than some quick mentions in the generic post game thread that goes up a few seconds after the game is over.

Also, when the team is losing it's a lot harder for people to focus on shiny, happy talk. I know there are people who don't want to hear anything by shiny, happy talk. There's be no "See no, hear no, speak no evil" statues if that wasn't the case.

Then throw in the issue that the Simons (intentionally or not) stirred with the "the city isn't supporting the Pacers and the team could move but we don't want to... but we could be forced to... but we don't want to... unless we have to... but we don't want to and so we'll be here a long time... if we can... unless we have to move...." pot.

Once the team starts winning, of course there will be more positive talk. The negativity will turn to the opposing team, refs, and even fans.

So, as LA says... Be careful fixing what isn't necessarily broken.

More importantly, make sure the perception something is broken is the reality and not just a short term reality. It's misjudgments along those lines that end up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

-Bball

Will Galen
02-26-2009, 07:25 PM
Easiest way around that is to use more smilies to show your intent. A few :D can go a long way.

Smilies suck!

(Giggle, giggle, snort)

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 07:28 PM
Easiest way around that is to use more smilies to show your intent. A few :D can go a long way.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Just ask and you shall receive.

Cobol Sam
02-26-2009, 07:39 PM
I know I stopped posting here for quite awhile after butting heads with Hicks (great idea right?) But the general demeanor of the board was bothering me at the time.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 07:43 PM
Easiest way around that is to use more smilies to show your intent. A few :D can go a long way.
God I hate you. :mad::censored::dead::crazy::pissed::pity:

Better? Worse? Am I doing it right?


To paraphrase Homer Simpson's greatest line
"Has the whole world gone mad?!"
"No, just your crazy forum."

Pacersfan46
02-26-2009, 07:54 PM
and you get a recipe for a bunch of Mr. Grumpy Gills.

YOU CALLING ME A FISH!!?!? WTF I HATE YOU TOO!!!!

:happydanc

In all seriousness, I have noticed it, and to be 100% honest with myself and all, I've been dragged into it a couple times. Which isn't completely out of the ordinary for me. I'm moody sometimes.

I'll try harder to ignore some things and just not reply. Easier said than done though. :)

-- Steve --

jhondog28
02-26-2009, 08:00 PM
I personally love this board because it cracks me up how un-negative (sp?) you all are. As it has been said this is a very friendly board with friendly people. You all have gatherings and hang out. There are certainly other boards I would be scared to do this with for fear of my life. I live in Texas and following the Indiana Pacers down here is like catching a snow flake in a 70 MPH wind, in other words it aint happening. With that being said I do notice that a lot of people start threads and do not comment on the thread or say something like ..." comments?" To me I just do not get those posts. But hey hopefully it was not I who started the negativity. If it was just treat me like the 7 yr old who farted and point at me and said "you did it"

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 08:01 PM
How is seth offensive at all? Unless its just a running gag.
JC do people like you make my life difficult. It's like I have to turn around and make the same stump speeches I made last week. You just read how the tone of the board is changing, new challengers popping up from everywhere. I'm going to have to push the boundries of what is considered name calling just to stay in this thing.*




In other news, how does Melli post right after a great Lebowski quote, sporting the avy he's sporting, and not even mention it? Obviously you're not a golfer.














* technically I don't believe I have been voted "Most Offensive" yet because I don't think we've ever had that category**


**yes I invented it and no I can't explain why I'm trying to win other than I'm turning into the skid and this is how I live my life now

MagicRat
02-26-2009, 08:03 PM
One thing that I think is funny is that for the 2 years I've been a member, Seth has been voted "Most Offensive Poster", yet I've never found Seth offensive at all.

Seth is one of the WORST top 50 posters in terms of Offensive posts to total posts as I explained in detail in a recent thread. You have a few other guys like Bball and Sassan, and I forget who else who are in the park of Seth's OFF/TOT ratio, and those other guys do much more critical things than post.

NO OTHER POSTER is remotely close to Seths's out of balance OFF/TOT ratio. Not even close. UncleBuck is much more in line with what true posting aces do statistically.


There is only 1 defense for Seth at all here and that's the question of posting style. It's possible that the structure is meant to have Seth be the only guy to make offensive posts while everyone just takes it. The problem is that this often doesn't naturally occur and occasionally this has even led to the board losing a poster outright.


I thought we saw exactly the issue in the Murphy's rebounding thread. Seth had this monster thread, and yet several times the thread got truly offensive and Seth got owned by Pacersfan46.

And the final, ugly numbers are 6,516 posts but a horrible 5,585 to 931 ratio. Los Angeles's 7,426 is a lot on paper, but only 1,634 were offensive. Even SASSAN had fewer offensive posts than Seth.


I mean maybe some of you aren't really thinking about this, but Seth's ratio is insanely out of whack, not just a little off.

I'm almost embarrassed to put up the next stat. OFF to TOT ratio. The number is how many offensive posts you make for every post.

.00 PacersGurl
.15 ABADays
.22 LA
.30 Pig Nash
.36 RCarey
.41 Hicks
.45 Bball
.46 Sassan
....and then there's Maude

.857 Seth


You know when you are following a thread you do have the chance to type a non-offensive post. I'm just saying. These numbers are over a huge sample size, the trend is there.


I mean seriously, how many threads have you watched and thought "man, Seth isn't being an a$$, he's being nice to these other guys"? I've seen Btown have those nights, though in his case it's more one-liners than basketball. But he has nights where he amazes the other posters with how many good basketball posts he makes.

Have we really had that thread from Seth where post after post he was posting offensive things about the other team, more than the Pacers own players?

Suaveness
02-26-2009, 08:06 PM
Smilies suck!

(Giggle, giggle, snort)

You need to stop giggling, it worries me


...and then there's Maude?

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 08:16 PM
Rat, color me not surprised. At least I got the props for my 70's just-how-old-are-you-dude reference.

The most impressive aspect - the commitment to authentic length. Of course it's really just a copy-paste Madlib there so I can't call it your best work. This is more Family Guy style than Simpsons or South Park.

Putnam
02-26-2009, 08:41 PM
Most of the posts so far in this thread are trying to explain or justify changes Speed is talking about. But there are a few things short of new, more restrictive rules that can be done to make the atmosphere better.


1. Sometimes the best thing is to say nothing. The poets down here write nothing at all, they just stand back and let it all be.

2. Before you tee off on somebody, ask one sincere question to make sure you understand his point.

3. Be patient. Many of the outrageous posts this season are from people who seem uncomfortable with the length of the NBA season. Larry Bird has said that one of the valuable lessons he learned from Red Auerbach is not to pull the plug on a team or a strategy that still needs time to develop.

4. Realize, before you curse somebody, how ridiculous it is to waste the whole forum's time on your little show of anger. Nobody's impressed.

5. Also, remember how hard it is to really trade a player, or draft an impact player, or win back public support, or guard an NBA-calibur opponent. This isn't a video game or a keeper league. Impatience makes it look like you don't understand.

6. Remember that you are a guest here. You wouldn't get in a fist fight if you were at Hicks' house. Why do it on his internet forum?

7. . . . . and remember that the other posters are guests, too, with the same status as you.

8. Use the PM function. If you really want to fight with somebody, you can do it privately.



Any others?

.

Jose Slaughter
02-26-2009, 08:43 PM
.... I continue to argue with them until I'm blue in the face.

Today we learned that J is a smurf.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 08:49 PM
You need to stop giggling, it worries me


...and then there's Maude?

It's an old show with a rediculously long theme song.

Suaveness
02-26-2009, 09:23 PM
It's an old show with a rediculously long theme song.

I'm aware :-p



Everyone needs to:

a. keep cool, baby.
b. stop repeating crap. We know you don't like JOB/TJ/whomever. Stop saying it over and over again.

MyFavMartin
02-26-2009, 09:24 PM
apparently can't make momma jokes and there's some dude running around claiming Bird wants an all white roster. thought race was off limits?

and the guy who wants Tinsley back on the court seems to be a troller.

RWB
02-26-2009, 09:26 PM
It's an old show with a rediculously long theme song.


And back then the most important thing Ms. Andriene Barbeau.

BillS
02-26-2009, 09:33 PM
Seth is one of the WORST top 50 posters in terms of Offensive posts to total posts as I explained in detail in a recent thread. You have a few other guys like Bball and Sassan, and I forget who else who are in the park of Seth's OFF/TOT ratio, and those other guys do much more critical things than post.

NO OTHER POSTER is remotely close to Seths's out of balance OFF/TOT ratio. Not even close. UncleBuck is much more in line with what true posting aces do statistically.

:
:
:


:lolchair::rotflmao::bowdown::worship:

Infinite MAN_force
02-26-2009, 09:47 PM
That's your problem - you're reading the game threads!!

:-p

Let me ask this question: is the quality perceived to be deteriorating outside of the game threads and post-game threads?

Well.. you have a point here. :laugh: We need more "odd thoughts" stuff outside the regular post game threads where its a bit more of an analysis, as opposed to unfiltered rage. I like the post game analysis, there are just some folks who I wish would keep it to themselves sometimes. Not that I have any right to demand that, haha, I get sick of skipping over a million unsubstansive posts to find the gems.

ajbry
02-26-2009, 09:57 PM
As someone who rarely posts on PD these days, I've still noticed it...

There's a difference between game thread anger and disgust towards players (which is more prevalent than I've ever seen on PD, BTW) and just a more negative atmosphere. The two have meshed. The strain of a losing season with relatively low-potential young guys is difficult especially when there aren't any clear scapegoats either, although JOB takes a lot of heat.

It has been interesting to see the transition to a PD that's decidedly more on-edge.

NapTonius Monk
02-26-2009, 10:26 PM
We are a microcosm of the Pacer environment. It's kind of like when you're trying to move on from someone you truly loved, how difficult it is to feel like that about anyone else. Not impossible, but certainly not something that happens at the snap of a finger. Reggie Miller was the last player the fans were positively passionate about. Every player we've had since then I think has been admired passively at best. Danny is on the road to being the guy, but it has been hard to embrace some of these guys ON the court, and that's even before the off court nonsense. I think the frustration can't help but spill over into our discussions. Disrespect is different, and should be abstained from. But my hope is that the board isn't sanitzed of passion. That's what drew me here. By the way, my assimilation is almost complete. I just don't know what the heck spoilers are for. Can anyone explain?

Country Boy
02-26-2009, 10:28 PM
Most of the posts so far in this thread are trying to explain or justify changes Speed is talking about. But there are a few things short of new, more restrictive rules that can be done to make the atmosphere better.


1. Sometimes the best thing is to say nothing. The poets down here write nothing at all, they just stand back and let it all be.

2. Before you tee off on somebody, ask one sincere question to make sure you understand his point.

3. Be patient. Many of the outrageous posts this season are from people who seem uncomfortable with the length of the NBA season. Larry Bird has said that one of the valuable lessons he learned from Red Auerbach is not to pull the plug on a team or a strategy that still needs time to develop.

4. Realize, before you curse somebody, how ridiculous it is to waste the whole forum's time on your little show of anger. Nobody's impressed.

5. Also, remember how hard it is to really trade a player, or draft an impact player, or win back public support, or guard an NBA-calibur opponent. This isn't a video game or a keeper league. Impatience makes it look like you don't understand.

6. Remember that you are a guest here. You wouldn't get in a fist fight if you were at Hicks' house. Why do it on his internet forum?

7. . . . . and remember that the other posters are guests, too, with the same status as you.

8. Use the PM function. If you really want to fight with somebody, you can do it privately.



.

B]8. Use the PM function. If you really want to fight with somebody, you can do it privately.[/B]


Well wouldn't it be nice if that was the case? I remember a poster who did take it to the PM function and his PM was passed around like yesterday's newspaper and was promptly banned for doing so. I know this for a fact, that poster is now deceased and I think most all here know who I refer to. So that is not an option if you want to stay aboard.

grace
02-26-2009, 10:40 PM
Any others?

.

9. The :ignore: feature is a wonderful thing and woefully underused.

speakout4
02-26-2009, 10:50 PM
The people who post with their hearts don't like the posts of the people who post with their brains. Self appointed posters think their optimism and my team whatever should rule. Doesn't always lead to real discussion as it just p***** people off.

Bball
02-26-2009, 10:51 PM
Has Grace spoken on this subject?

Suaveness
02-26-2009, 10:54 PM
Has Grace spoken on this subject?

More importantly, how many posts can Grace see in this thread?

count55
02-26-2009, 10:55 PM
Has Grace spoken on this subject?


More importantly, how many posts can Grace see in this thread?

Well, in case yours can't be seen.

McKeyFan
02-26-2009, 11:35 PM
I haven't noticed anything particularly out of the ordinary.

It's ordinary for Pacers Digest to go through "mood swings," as someone aptly put it. I personally ebb and flow in terms of my posting and lurking.

Common sense says a struggling season is causing some negativity. That said, I wouldn't change a thing about PD. We just need to be patient and persevere until the next upswing in Pacer performance.

SycamoreKen
02-27-2009, 12:02 AM
Has Grace spoken on this subject?


More importantly, how many posts can Grace see in this thread?


Well, in case yours can't be seen.

Just to be on the safe side. I have noticed a change too. Not enough dancing fruit and veggies!:dance::dance::pepper::pepper::carrot::pin eapple:pineapple:mango::mango::cucumber::cucumber: :apple::apple::dorange::dorange::bdance::bananadan :bgroovy::slick::boombaby:

SoupIsGood
02-27-2009, 12:29 AM
I agree with JayRedd. This season is just boring, and most the interesting threads nowadays are about matters going on elsewhere in the league.

Let's face it. We suck, our young guys aren't all that great, and we're loaded down by huge contracts such that we won't get better for quite awhile. This season is boring. There's only so long you can watch Danny drop 30+ in a loss and really get something out of it.

Also, I don't think the negativity right now is all that bad. It's been much worse before.

grace
02-27-2009, 12:53 AM
For those of you who might be wondering if I can see your posts all I'll say on the subject is there has been a thread or two where I've only been able to see one person posting. I find those very entertaining because it looks like the poster is arguing with himself. (Unless he's quoting the people I have on :ignore:. Then it's just irritating.)

Los Angeles
02-27-2009, 01:00 AM
Seth is one of the WORST top 50 posters in terms of Offensive posts to total posts as I explained in detail in a recent thread. You have a few other guys like Bball and Sassan, and I forget who else who are in the park of Seth's OFF/TOT ratio, and those other guys do much more critical things than post.

NO OTHER POSTER is remotely close to Seths's out of balance OFF/TOT ratio. Not even close. UncleBuck is much more in line with what true posting aces do statistically.


There is only 1 defense for Seth at all here and that's the question of posting style. It's possible that the structure is meant to have Seth be the only guy to make offensive posts while everyone just takes it. The problem is that this often doesn't naturally occur and occasionally this has even led to the board losing a poster outright.


I thought we saw exactly the issue in the Murphy's rebounding thread. Seth had this monster thread, and yet several times the thread got truly offensive and Seth got owned by Pacersfan46.

And the final, ugly numbers are 6,516 posts but a horrible 5,585 to 931 ratio. Los Angeles's 7,426 is a lot on paper, but only 1,634 were offensive. Even SASSAN had fewer offensive posts than Seth.


I mean maybe some of you aren't really thinking about this, but Seth's ratio is insanely out of whack, not just a little off.

I'm almost embarrassed to put up the next stat. OFF to TOT ratio. The number is how many offensive posts you make for every post.

.00 PacersGurl
.15 ABADays
.22 LA
.30 Pig Nash
.36 RCarey
.41 Hicks
.45 Bball
.46 Sassan
....and then there's Maude

.857 Seth


You know when you are following a thread you do have the chance to type a non-offensive post. I'm just saying. These numbers are over a huge sample size, the trend is there.


I mean seriously, how many threads have you watched and thought "man, Seth isn't being an a$$, he's being nice to these other guys"? I've seen Btown have those nights, though in his case it's more one-liners than basketball. But he has nights where he amazes the other posters with how many good basketball posts he makes.

Have we really had that thread from Seth where post after post he was posting offensive things about the other team, more than the Pacers own players?

You underestimate my power!

http://www.lightsaberarchives.org/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php/saberwiki:swcreators:anakin_skywalker:anakinskywal ker.jpg

duke dynamite
02-27-2009, 01:23 AM
Well wouldn't it be nice if that was the case? I remember a poster who did take it to the PM function and his PM was passed around like yesterday's newspaper and was promptly banned for doing so. I know this for a fact, that poster is now deceased and I think most all here know who I refer to. So that is not an option if you want to stay aboard.
It still didn't justify how he acted. He threw many assumptions with little or no knowledge of who he was harassing. At the time it served him right to have people know, and to warn them of what this guy was doing. That's why he was banned.

If he has passed, it is sad, but life shouldn't be spent belittling people that they do not know. Especially on the biggest security blanket in the world, the internet.

duke dynamite
02-27-2009, 01:32 AM
After taking a peek at one of the other forums dedicated towards this team, I am actually quite proud of what we have.

I meant the IndyStar board.

By the way for those who are wondering, this is a spoiler. Click on it.

Speed
02-27-2009, 06:33 AM
i've always blamed any and all PD hostility on you. always.

HA! Finally the root of the problem.

Cobol Sam
02-27-2009, 08:53 AM
You underestimate my power!

http://a825.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00286/42/86/286816824_l.jpg

:confused:

sweabs
02-27-2009, 09:01 AM
Any others?

9) Count.

Counting has been proven to increase happiness. Recent studies suggest that the fastest way out of the economic downturn is to count 5-10 times/day. If everyone did this, the world would be a better place.



Great post, MagicRat. You'd make a great counter.

Country Boy
02-27-2009, 09:20 AM
It still didn't justify how he acted. He threw many assumptions with little or no knowledge of who he was harassing. At the time it served him right to have people know, and to warn them of what this guy was doing. That's why he was banned.

If he has passed, it is sad, but life shouldn't be spent belittling people that they do not know. Especially on the biggest security blanket in the world, the internet.

I will only say that there are two sides to that story, and what you posted is not the "entire" story.

Major Cold
02-27-2009, 09:38 AM
People keep talking about respect and such. But I think the reality is this: Respect is relative. When we say "so-and-so are disrespectful when they do such-and-such", so and so may not see what they do as disrespectful. Then we determine what is respectful and disrespectful, trying to combat 10, 15, 20, 30, sometimes 40 years of what so-and-so thinks is respectable. If you think this is going to be accomplished successfully in an impersonal online forum, think again.

The majority of the posters know what to expect from the so-and-sos. Pick and chose your battles. If someone makes an irrational statement, why expect them to discuss such statements rationally? Move on and converse with the rational posters.

Moreover complaining at lengths about complainers makes you no different. State what needs to be said and move on. Lets bury this thread and be respect barometers of the board. But if we continue to complain about the complaining, we only succumb to that type of posting.

kester99
02-27-2009, 09:46 AM
I'm just waiting for this thread to devolve into a long, acrimonious exchange between two to three of our members. Possible topics: Brain vs Heart, being banned, Murphy (of course), MagicRat's post (good or great?), the thread itself (good or bad)...

Maybe I don't have a long enough perspective, but it does seem to me that the site has suffered through that sort of thing more frequently than I was used to, in the last two or three months. As often as not, it seems to start from a lack of civil address. Calling someone crazy, or a moron, is a lot more likely to set it off than saying, "I just have to disagree with you there."

duke dynamite
02-27-2009, 09:54 AM
I will only say that there are two sides to that story, and what you posted is not the "entire" story.

Well, however you want to go about it. I defended myself in the best possible way, without calling him names and a public display of immaturity. I cannot say that for him.

Only he and I know the entire story. Whatever you heard and/or saw was just in the line of fire, and is not your place to comment.

Again, I mean this in the nicest way possible, and highly suggest that this particular situation is to never be discussed again, because it was over a year ago and it's done and over with.

For what it's worth, that user got banned not only for the interaction he had with me, but with several other posters at the time. I'm sure someone could chime in on this to concur with what I just said, because that is the story going on around here.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2009, 10:38 AM
I will only say that there are two sides to that story, and what you posted is not the "entire" story.


I hate it when people bring up something then won't say what it is they are saying! If it was worth bringing up, it's worth saying or otherwise don't bring it up.

I lurked on here for years before joining and I really don't care what was said nor to whom it was said, but I would like to know who has passed away. I do believe the death of a poster is info that should be shared with all.

duke dynamite
02-27-2009, 10:45 AM
I hate it when people bring up something then won't say what it is they are saying! If it was worth bringing up, it's worth saying or otherwise don't bring it up. So who is the poster and what is the entire story?
Elgin56

I went through a ton of old threads and posts this morning. I am not the one that the finger should be pointed at.

Country Boy
02-27-2009, 11:08 AM
Well, however you want to go about it. I defended myself in the best possible way, without calling him names and a public display of immaturity. I cannot say that for him.

Only he and I know the entire story. Whatever you heard and/or saw was just in the line of fire, and is not your place to comment.

Again, I mean this in the nicest way possible, and highly suggest that this particular situation is to never be discussed again, because it was over a year ago and it's done and over with.

For what it's worth, that user got banned not only for the interaction he had with me, but with several other posters at the time. I'm sure someone could chime in on this to concur with what I just said, because that is the story going on around here.

On one hand you say let's not discuss that situation and then in the next paragraph you continue piling on. I made my point about not using PM's to argue and you jump in with half the story about a poster who was banned and who is no longer able to defend himself. Now you want other posters to chime in and concur with you while asking for it not to be discussed. I personaly don't have a problem with you or your style of posting and I usually read most of your posts and find them entertaining, however I will not pretend and accept a revisionist version about an old friend who is no longer able to defend himself.

That is my last comment on this topic, let's move on and let the past be the past.:)

Justin Tyme
02-27-2009, 11:14 AM
Elgin56

I went through a ton of old threads and posts this morning. I am not the one that the finger should be pointed at.


I'm sorry to hear he's passed away.

I lurked for years on Star, Realgm, and PD. I have seen all 3 go thru stages with the 1st 2 going down hill to next to nothing. Some time last year, I was lurking on the Star when a thread about Elgin 56 was posted by a poster who was apparently a close friend of his. This poster alluded to Elgin 56 problems at PD in their ranting. I try not to pay attention to threads about the rants of other's problems on other forums, but I understood Elgin 56 was a veteran of the Viet Nam war. He fought in an unpopular war with little support from those at home. I salute him for his duty to his country in an extremely confrontational time in American history.

Again, I'm sorry to hear Elgin 56 passed away.

Speed
02-27-2009, 11:16 AM
Thanks for all of the discussion. It's nice to know it's just not me that has felt this.

To me, this has been by far the best place for Pacer info and opinion, including the professional sites.

It's a great board to me, I'm sure it will continue to be.

Thanks again.

Now with that said, I'll probably stay away from the Boston game thread tonight, cuz I think it may get ugly. :D

duke dynamite
02-27-2009, 11:18 AM
On one hand you say let's not discuss that situation and then in the next paragraph you continue piling on. I made my point about not using PM's to argue and you jump in with half the story about a poster who was banned and who is no longer able to defend himself. Now you want other posters to chime in and concur with you while asking for it not to be discussed. I personaly don't have a problem with you or your style of posting and I usually read most of your posts and find them entertaining, however I will not pretend and accept a revisionist version about an old friend who is no longer able to defend himself.

That is my last comment on this topic, let's move on and let the past be the past.:)
I'm perfectly fine with that. I was just stating if I had to bring someone in, I would do so. I haven't mentioned it or said anything about it for a long time, and I felt like it was long and forgotten. Apparently not, some people still need closure.

Putnam
02-27-2009, 11:20 AM
On one hand you say let's not discuss that situation and then in the next paragraph you continue piling on. I made my point about not using PM's to argue and you jump in with half the story about a poster who was banned and who is no longer able to defend himself. Now you want other posters to chime in and concur with you while asking for it not to be discussed. I personaly don't have a problem with you or your style of posting and I usually read most of your posts and find them entertaining, however I will not pretend and accept a revisionist version about an old friend who is no longer able to defend himself.

That is my last comment on this topic, let's move on and let the past be the past.:)



When I suggested using PMs instead of the public board, I didn't meant to imply that you can say anything you want there and get away with it. Taking a personal vendetta to the PMs protects the rest of the board. That's reason enough to do it.

OakMoses
02-27-2009, 11:39 AM
In other news, how does Melli post right after a great Lebowski quote, sporting the avy he's sporting, and not even mention it? Obviously you're not a golfer.


Humor often eludes me. It's my tragic flaw. I'm a terrible golfer, but I love to play.

Putnam
02-27-2009, 11:45 AM
In other news, how does Melli post right after a great Lebowski quote, sporting the avy he's sporting, and not even mention it? Obviously you're not a golfer.


Seth, posting a great lyric or movie quote in an apt setting is its own reward.



I have done one braver thing
Than all the Worthies did ;
And yet a braver thence doth spring,
Which is, to keep that hid.

Unclebuck
02-27-2009, 12:17 PM
I have read this thread with great interest and although I started a couple of posts prior, I decided, until now, not to post in this thread.

My overwhelming thought is I think it is a huge cop-out to blame the demeanor on the Pacers poor season. That makes no sense to me at all. I understand a little venting in the game and postagame threads perhaps but beyond that whether the Pacers win 82 games or no games that shouldn't impact the demeanor of the forum.

I get sick of all the negativity not just in this forum - but in life in general, I guess I just don't respond well to it. That is why you'll see me defending JOB so much, defending the refs as much as I do, defending the NBA in general.

There have been times when I have been upset after losses, but then when I read the postgame thread, it often causes me to say this negativity is too much and so I start defending coaches, players, refs....

SoupIsGood
02-27-2009, 01:16 PM
Oh my god, Elgin is dead? Was that common knowledge? RIP.

ajbry
02-27-2009, 01:25 PM
Oh my god, Elgin is dead? Was that common knowledge? RIP.

May he rest in peace... I recall that he and myself didn't particularly get along, but I respect what he did for our country and I'm sure I would've liked him a lot better had I known him in person.

Drewtone
02-27-2009, 01:34 PM
Well, I might as well chime in as a long-time lurker.

I've seen it get chipy and more testy here. I think Seth has it largely correct in that there are a lot of new posters who don't get the long-established posting styles or historical back and forth between long-time friends on here and just prematurely react. Heck, I've recently seen Able get flamed, which is inexcusable (as he is the precious fountain from which our bandwidth springs).

Hicks, regarding your earlier comment, I really enjoy the humor/levity brought forth by posters such as ATC, JR and others and would hate to see them dial it down for the sake of new posters. I'd rather see newcomers be encourage to lay back a little at first and get a feel for the place before diving in.

I mean, I rarely post, given that I live far, far away (about 14 hours to 86th and Meridian for those keeping score) and cannot post from work... by the time I have something relevant to say, it's likely already been said, and more articulately at that. That doesn't mean I don't feel a sense of community on the board, and if I ever showed up at one of the forum parties, I'd probably feel pretty comfortable. I'd hate to see that watered down.

I also think that the board ebbs and flows. I think it was much more annoying during the 'Runi-fanboi' wars, and you could reference just about any of the brawl threads to see civilty break down.

I would suggest we just police the civility level, which I think Hicks has been doing more of recently and not get sucked into pee'ing matches.

danman
02-27-2009, 01:57 PM
If it's getting bad, it's easy enough to change it by lightening up. I haven't been getting flamed so far (short history tho).

If my Pacer fandom could survive the 80's with a positive attitude intact, I can survive a couple more years of this. It's fun for me to see guys like Granger step up, or Rush or Hibbert maybe develop.

Naptown_Seth
02-27-2009, 02:53 PM
And back then the most important thing Ms. Andriene Barbeau.
Where's Rat when we really need him. We don't even need a photoshop on that one unless it's coming from Swamp Thing.

Drewtone
02-27-2009, 03:12 PM
Where's Rat when we really need him. We don't even need a photoshop on that one unless it's coming from Swamp Thing.


I'd say a better source would be Escape From New York...

switch
02-27-2009, 04:41 PM
I have been a lurker for a long long time. I started out lurking the "other board". Then I lurked the creation of PD. I have lurked through every change that has occured in the pacers organization, the website itself, and attitude of the posters.

I'v noticed there have been many different phases that PD goes through. Changes occur based on what is happening with the team. The last few years changes were caused by Ron Artest... and a championship caliber team is destroyed, off-court issues make more headlines than the teams performances, the Golden State trade, mixed feeling about JO and Tinsley's ability to lead the team, Walsh leaves and Bird takes control, Bird made several moves this summer, and now we have Granger and the new look Pacers. Throughout all of the ups and downs the demeaner of the board changed, from what I lurked.

Some people will always see the glass as half empty no matter what is going on; whether the Pacers are winning or losing. In the recent past people disliked Artest for his mental unstabilities, Carlisle for the offense he ran, JO for his selfishness, Walsh/Bird for the trades they made toghether, and Tinsley and others for the negative attention they brought to the team. People always had something negative to say, even when Carlisle's teams were winning and going deep in the playoffs.

Today, we do not have a villian on the team such as an Artest, JO, or Tinsley to blame or attack as the reason for losing. Some players may have been over paid, but that was not their fault, or even Bird's fault. The players have good character and work/play hard on the court. Bird is dong everything he can to improve this team and I think most people realize that.

Since some people always have the desire to point a finger at somebody, that leaves O'Brian as the scapegoat for losing this year; and I have noticed a lot of finger pointing this season. (which is unnecessary imo) There has also been a lack of things to talk about this season compared to past seasons. Almost everything in the media about the Pacers is basketball related and the news has become very repetitive; game articles, will an expiring get traded or not, Granger drops 30 but we lose, Granger is an all star, when will MDJ return, MDJ returns and reinjures himself, and the rookies development pretty much sums up headlines of this season.

I think people have become bored and are iritated by the losing. Nothing exciting has happened in a long time and people have resorted to creating their own excitement through posts. It reminds me of 18 hour car rides to Florida with the family when I was a kid; the boredom of the never ending drive leads to fighting and bickering with my parents and siblings.

This long rambling and possible confusing response is just my take on things and why they may be occuring. I might just be thinking too hard about this or reaching too far outside of the box. Feel free to disagree.

ChicagoJ
02-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Since some people always have the desire to point a finger at somebody, that leaves O'Brian as the scapegoat for losing this year; and I have noticed a lot of finger pointing this season. (which is unnecessary imo) There has also been a lack of things to talk about this season compared to past seasons. Almost everything in the media about the Pacers is basketball related and the news has become very repetitive
-snip-

Exactly. We cold have 50+ post game threads this year that all say the same thing: The Pacers aren't very good but they are trying. In spite of that, this team is a few personnel moves and a couple of years away from where we want them to be.

:sleep:

I personally am trying to avoid the blame game - a couple of players really irritate my pet peeves so I do find myself talking about them. But it doesn't make for much of a messageboard to just have a few posts of, "well, that was exactly what we expected. The Pacers gave a valient effort and lost to yet another team that is just plain better."

YoSoyIndy
02-27-2009, 09:01 PM
Moreover complaining at lengths about complainers makes you no different. State what needs to be said and move on. Lets bury this thread and be respect barometers of the board. But if we continue to complain about the complaining, we only succumb to that type of posting.

I like this paragraph a lot. Complaining about complaining makes you no different. Gets down to the heart of what PD is -- giving fans a way to give constructive feedback about the team and to other fans.

SycamoreKen
02-28-2009, 12:04 AM
On a more serious note, I think the tone of the board is up to all of us remembering that, in the end, the whole reason for this place is for a group of fans to come together and discuss our team. We don't always have to agree on everything, it would be really weird if we did, but we should be able to discuss things in a respectful manner.

I get so exasperated when i go to other boards outside of sports and try to discuss topics, especially political ones, and the conversations always turn into name calling, insult fests. That is one of the reasons that politics and such was removed form here. Some people just don't get how to talk.

We are discussing basketball, football, movies, books, tv shows, and Shade's inability to have a good relationship with his computing devices. Let's not take it all so seriously that we have to get worked up and stressed. I think all of our lives have enough of that outside of here.

Los Angeles
02-28-2009, 12:23 AM
and Shade's inability to have a good relationship with his computing devices.

You can love a Fembot with all your heart, but she will never love you back.

Story of my life.

:sad:

pizza guy
02-28-2009, 01:26 AM
This long rambling and possible confusing response is just my take on things and why they may be occuring. I might just be thinking too hard about this or reaching too far outside of the box. Feel free to disagree.

Post more. Always nice to find someone well spoken and thoughful.

The reason this board has been so successful, and the specific reason I joined, is that the posters have an understood respect for each other. There's insight and respect, which is way more than I can say for a few other boards that I've visited. And it stays that way because those of us who are veterans (and/or moderators) have very little tolerance for people just trying to flame others. They don't get the attention they want, so they leave us to our respectful selves.

This really is the best board around, and no matter how the team is playing, the posters here will always be that way.

MagicRat
02-28-2009, 01:27 AM
I'd say a better source would be Escape From New York...

Good Call.....

http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/pdbarbeau.jpg

Bball
02-28-2009, 01:34 AM
You can love a Fembot with all your heart, but she will never love you back.

Story of my life.

:sad:

It does get cold in Montana doesn't it?

-Bball

Will Galen
02-28-2009, 03:32 AM
It does get cold in Montana doesn't it?

-Bball

Just on the surface. You go down a few miles and it's hot as heck.

Los Angeles
02-28-2009, 04:48 AM
Just on the surface. You go down a few miles and it's hot as heck.

But then you'd be right in the middle of the asbestos laced vermiculite, which I've heard might not be so good for your life expectancy.

MyFavMartin
02-28-2009, 08:41 AM
But then you'd be right in the middle of the asbestos laced vermiculite, which I've heard might not be so good for your life expectancy.

Gotta die of something.

(Don't break the asbestos and start breathing it.)

Justin Tyme
02-28-2009, 11:26 AM
On a more serious note, I think the tone of the board is up to all of us remembering that, in the end, the whole reason for this place is for a group of fans to come together and discuss our team. We don't always have to agree on everything, it would be really weird if we did, but we should be able to discuss things in a respectful manner.

I get so exasperated when i go to other boards outside of sports and try to discuss topics, especially political ones, and the conversations always turn into name calling, insult fests. That is one of the reasons that politics and such was removed form here. Some people just don't get how to talk.

I understand political boards are much the same.

We are discussing basketball, football, movies, books, tv shows, and Shade's inability to have a good relationship with his computing devices. Let's not take it all so seriously that we have to get worked up and stressed. I think all of our lives have enough of that outside of here.


I decide I wanted to know more about the Bible, besides what I get from church, so I decided to lurk on a religious form to acquire some more knowledge. Was that ever a mistake! Hostility galore with atheists vs religious calling each other names and etc. I was absolutely astounded. Nothing of merit was discussed. Just each side telling the other they were wrong with unpleasantries. This forum is a group of milk and tea drinkers compared to those people. The words radical and fanatical are words best to describe those posters, and that's being too kind.

Drewtone
02-28-2009, 02:07 PM
I like this paragraph a lot. Complaining about complaining makes you no different. Gets down to the heart of what PD is -- giving fans a way to give constructive feedback about the team and to other fans.


I think the board would be much nicer if you brought back your Jessica P. avatar...

;)

Naptown_Seth
02-28-2009, 03:07 PM
Good Call.....

http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/pdbarbeau.jpg
w00t
:happydanc
Schwinngg
:bavetta:

Naptown_Seth
02-28-2009, 03:21 PM
Serious note: I do get disgusted with complaints, often lobbed at me among others, about "criticism". Look, the team is losing plenty and it's going into the 3rd year of it. Not only that, but at times it's been pretty tough to comprehend a direction as we get a lot of mixed signals from the team.

So I think some of the die-hards are overlooking the fact that the "complainers" are also die-hards. I mean for chrissake I know how long Peck has been following them, ChicagoJ, Bball, etc have too. I've been going to games since around 79 and probably hit my Duke Dynamite fanaticism level around 88-89 when I got PO'd at hearing Smits' criticism and all the empty arenas.

I think that's the perspective lost here. If I'm frustrated with Troy's rebounding ratio and Peck and I (and others) are critiquing his rebound-theft habit, it's not out of "I hate the team". Far from it. Not only are we still fans enough to watch the games, we're crazy enough to analyze the games and write about those thoughts at length.


They are losing. It means something is pretty wrong. Us noticing that isn't wrong, it's actually means we give s***. I should be able to say "Danny isn't a very good one on one defender, Dun is overpaid considering he's had one good year, and Troy sure doesn't get many offensive/tough rebounds it seems like" without it meaning I don't like the team or even like them as players.

I mean I'm also the guy jocking Danny=Pip and I have said many times this year that Troy has played improved defense. His 3 is a deadly weapon this season as well. Dun was living up to his contract last year.

TJ, Jack, Rush, Roy, Foster, et al all have issues and problems, none of them has been above blame at some point this year. But you can't see that blame as haterade, at least not by the regulars who are such fans that they spend tons of time here. This isn't a 5 post troll jumping into a thread with "Dun is the antichrist, peace out".

You don't have to agree with criticism, but you should respect it enough to consider it and perhaps debate it.

Naptown_Seth
02-28-2009, 04:03 PM
The best thing about Adrienne, well the 3rd best thing at least, is that she knows how to deal with Tinsley's contract.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/PD_general/Barbeau000.jpg

As for EFNY, solid, sure, but I feel like we dropped the ball on this one. I blame myself. In the "safe for work" category we could have done better. Plus it's a Jackie Chan film.

I got your season tickets right here

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/PD_general/Barbeau002.jpg

Country Boy
02-28-2009, 04:43 PM
Serious note: I do get disgusted with complaints, often lobbed at me among others, about "criticism". Look, the team is losing plenty and it's going into the 3rd year of it. Not only that, but at times it's been pretty tough to comprehend a direction as we get a lot of mixed signals from the team.

So I think some of the die-hards are overlooking the fact that the "complainers" are also die-hards. I mean for chrissake I know how long Peck has been following them, ChicagoJ, Bball, etc have too. I've been going to games since around 79 and probably hit my Duke Dynamite fanaticism level around 88-89 when I got PO'd at hearing Smits' criticism and all the empty arenas.

I think that's the perspective lost here. If I'm frustrated with Troy's rebounding ratio and Peck and I (and others) are critiquing his rebound-theft habit, it's not out of "I hate the team". Far from it. Not only are we still fans enough to watch the games, we're crazy enough to analyze the games and write about those thoughts at length.


They are losing. It means something is pretty wrong. Us noticing that isn't wrong, it's actually means we give s***. I should be able to say "Danny isn't a very good one on one defender, Dun is overpaid considering he's had one good year, and Troy sure doesn't get many offensive/tough rebounds it seems like" without it meaning I don't like the team or even like them as players.

I mean I'm also the guy jocking Danny=Pip and I have said many times this year that Troy has played improved defense. His 3 is a deadly weapon this season as well. Dun was living up to his contract last year.

TJ, Jack, Rush, Roy, Foster, et al all have issues and problems, none of them has been above blame at some point this year. But you can't see that blame as haterade, at least not by the regulars who are such fans that they spend tons of time here. This isn't a 5 post troll jumping into a thread with "Dun is the antichrist, peace out".

You don't have to agree with criticism, but you should respect it enough to consider it and perhaps debate it.



Seth, I consider you one of the biggest culprits when it comes to posting negatives about certain players aimed at invoking posters to fire back with negative responses. You are a master at cloaking negativity within your post in the guise of making an analysis. You bash a player(Murph) and then throw in a little positive morsel as to say, see I am not a Murph hater. I'm sorry but if it isn't one of your close pals on this board, you show little to no respect for dissenting opinions. That is not bashing you, it is my honest appraisal of your posting technique. I have been here long enough to remember you flaming posters over the S. Williams episode. You led the charge for saying just give him another chance he is just a kid. If a poster would say that Williams was trouble and should be cut loose they were met with pointed critizism from you. You did the same with Jackson. So let's not pretend that you are above the fray and that you don't get down and dirty at times. Enough with the lectures as we ALL should look into the mirror and question what we see looking back at us.

duke dynamite
03-01-2009, 02:20 AM
Serious note: I do get disgusted with complaints, often lobbed at me among others, about "criticism". Look, the team is losing plenty and it's going into the 3rd year of it. Not only that, but at times it's been pretty tough to comprehend a direction as we get a lot of mixed signals from the team.

So I think some of the die-hards are overlooking the fact that the "complainers" are also die-hards. I mean for chrissake I know how long Peck has been following them, ChicagoJ, Bball, etc have too. I've been going to games since around 79 and probably hit my Duke Dynamite fanaticism level around 88-89 when I got PO'd at hearing Smits' criticism and all the empty arenas.

I think that's the perspective lost here. If I'm frustrated with Troy's rebounding ratio and Peck and I (and others) are critiquing his rebound-theft habit, it's not out of "I hate the team". Far from it. Not only are we still fans enough to watch the games, we're crazy enough to analyze the games and write about those thoughts at length.


They are losing. It means something is pretty wrong. Us noticing that isn't wrong, it's actually means we give s***. I should be able to say "Danny isn't a very good one on one defender, Dun is overpaid considering he's had one good year, and Troy sure doesn't get many offensive/tough rebounds it seems like" without it meaning I don't like the team or even like them as players.

I mean I'm also the guy jocking Danny=Pip and I have said many times this year that Troy has played improved defense. His 3 is a deadly weapon this season as well. Dun was living up to his contract last year.

TJ, Jack, Rush, Roy, Foster, et al all have issues and problems, none of them has been above blame at some point this year. But you can't see that blame as haterade, at least not by the regulars who are such fans that they spend tons of time here. This isn't a 5 post troll jumping into a thread with "Dun is the antichrist, peace out".

You don't have to agree with criticism, but you should respect it enough to consider it and perhaps debate it.
I've been like this since about 1991, lol. I guess reality isn't my strong point, but I have something that keeps me going. I understand what it is like to be a Cubs fan in some respect.

Seth, after meeting you at the forum party back in December, I finally got to see how you carry yourself in person, and how you respond to other comments, questions, and what-not. With that I accessed the fact that you know what you are talking about. You have the knolwledge and observe more than the average fan would. I like that because I am not one who really likes to pay attention to contracts and a whole lot of stats. I just keep track of say how a particular player played the night before.

I know game threads and stuff like that are always going to bring at least myself to short-ended statements of joy or dispair, but I will never chime in with a bash towards a player, or calling the coach "retarded" like I have seen a lot of lately for example. That isn't classy at all.

Most Offensive Poster or not, you bring most of us (including myself) back to that *sometimes* harsh reality that these past 3 seasons have been. I can say for myself in small doses that is actually a good thing, because I need it.

Thanks, Seth, and keep on keepin' on.

Alabama-Redneck
03-01-2009, 09:27 AM
IMO, several statements are made so as to seem factual when, in fact, they are just opinions.

Those statements are fine if so labeled with IMO-In My Opinion or JMO-Just My Opinion.

I think everyone should be able to state their opinion but do not try to force-feed the information as factual when it is just an opinion.

Remember, everyone has an opinion but opinions vary.

Play nice !!

:cool:

Country Boy
03-01-2009, 10:04 AM
IMO, several statements are made so as to seem factual when, in fact, they are just opinions.

Those statements are fine if so labeled with IMO-In My Opinion or JMO-Just My Opinion.

I think everyone should be able to state their opinion but do not try to force-feed the information as factual when it is just an opinion.

Remember, everyone has an opinion but opinions vary.

Play nice !!

:cool:

You have captured what I have been unable to say in one short post. Your post nails it!:)

Putnam
03-01-2009, 10:19 AM
IMO, several statements are made so as to seem factual when, in fact, they are just opinions.

Those statements are fine if so labeled with IMO-In My Opinion or JMO-Just My Opinion.

I think everyone should be able to state their opinion but do not try to force-feed the information as factual when it is just an opinion.

Remember, everyone has an opinion but opinions vary.

Play nice !!

:cool:


That's YOUR opinion!

(And mine, too.)



The NBA season is long, and most years for most teams end in disappointment. That should be no surprise. And if a team performs below your expectations, maybe it was your expectations that were at fault.

Each of us has a right to state his opinions, but some opinions are not worth having. Frustration has boiled over repeatedly because people started declaring with certainty in early December that the season was wasted. The problem with that, apart from the anger and discord it engendered, is that nobody could possibly know those things that early. Even when your guesses turn out to be true, they were still just guesses. We are not any of us omniscient. (This isn't happening just here. this morning on MSNBC there's a link where you can vote on when the recession willl end. "I don't know, and neither does anybody" isn't one of the choices.)

Look at the pre-game scoring predictions. Before each game, there are a couple of dozen predictions of the score. Very seldom does anybody opredict the score correctly, and no one person gets even the most approximate prediction more than a few times a season. See? You don't know what is going to happen. And if none of us can accurately predict even one game, it is certain that none of us knows what the season is going to bring, or what impact a draft pick can make or anything.



The demeanor of the forum would be improved if people would decide to enjoy basketball. Just tune in or show up to the game and enjoy basketball. If your opinions prevent you from enjoying the good things, then why not tone down the opinions. Every game, the Pacers show some good play, some developing promise, a few Boom Babies. . . even a few defensive stops. Enjoy those.

JayRedd
03-01-2009, 05:18 PM
Good Call.....

http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/pdbarbeau.jpg

Very nice work. I thought that was actually Snake until I was like "Wait...I don't recall Kurt Russell being so handsome."

NapTonius Monk
03-02-2009, 12:19 AM
:( I'm really sorry to hear about Elgin 56.

ChicagoJ
03-02-2009, 12:29 AM
IMO, several statements are made so as to seem factual when, in fact, they are just opinions.

Those statements are fine if so labeled with IMO-In My Opinion or JMO-Just My Opinion.

I think everyone should be able to state their opinion but do not try to force-feed the information as factual when it is just an opinion.

Remember, everyone has an opinion but opinions vary.

Play nice !!

:cool:

But that should be self-evident.

It seems a bit absurd for everone to finish every post with a disclaimer that says, "just my opinion." (Althoug a few years back I had that in my signature because it seems a there are plenty of people out there that get confused on this.)

Its a fact that Uncle Buck loves Foster and its a fact that I don't. Clearly, when we are discuss/ debating the guy EVERY SINGLE THING that either of us say is an opinion. Statistics aren't really even facts, when brought into the arguement. Sure, you could say, as a fact, that Foster is shooting 52% this season. But as soon as you add any commentary (he's playing well because its better than his career average of 50% OR he sucks because all he shoots are put-backs and he still misses half of them), its an opinion.

If there aren't opinions around here, then PD will consist entire of box scores, wacky trade proposals, and some counting thing that I've heard about but never actually seen myself.

Just my opinion, of course.

Unclebuck
03-02-2009, 11:02 AM
But that should be self-evident.

It seems a bit absurd for everone to finish every post with a disclaimer that says, "just my opinion." (Althoug a few years back I had that in my signature because it seems a there are plenty of people out there that get confused on this.)

Its a fact that Uncle Buck loves Foster and its a fact that I don't. Clearly, when we are discuss/ debating the guy EVERY SINGLE THING that either of us say is an opinion. Statistics aren't really even facts, when brought into the arguement. Sure, you could say, as a fact, that Foster is shooting 52% this season. But as soon as you add any commentary (he's playing well because its better than his career average of 50% OR he sucks because all he shoots are put-backs and he still misses half of them), its an opinion.

If there aren't opinions around here, then PD will consist entire of box scores, wacky trade proposals, and some counting thing that I've heard about but never actually seen myself.

Just my opinion, of course.

I agree - everything on here is an opinion - but all opinions are not created equal. (for example your opinion about Jeff Foster is just wrong - and that is 100% fact) JMO

bellisimo
03-02-2009, 01:39 PM
If there aren't opinions around here, then PD will consist entire of box scores, wacky trade proposals, and some counting thing that I've heard about but never actually seen myself.

Just my opinion, of course.

155 :buddies:

Putnam
03-02-2009, 02:32 PM
I agree - everything on here is an opinion

The Pacers record is 26 wins and 36 losses. Is that my opinion, or is it a fact?

I don't mean to quibble, but I think the difference between fact and opinion is huge, that both exist (though there are far fewer facts than opinions, and that confusing the two is what leads to the problem stated in the OP.




Statistics aren't really even facts, when brought into the arguement.

I think J was saying statistics aren't useful when UncleBuck and he are discussing Foster, or when anybody with a firm-set opinion is arguing with someone equally set with the opposite opinion. About that he is certainly right. But I hope he wouldn't say that statistics aren't useful at other times or that statistics are no different from opinion. J?

ChicagoJ
03-02-2009, 02:55 PM
The Pacers have 26 wins and 36 losses.

Those are facts.

What does it mean?

Other than just restating that they have won 26 of the 62 games they have played, it doesn't mean much.

Is it good? - that depends on the comparision. Suddenly it is looking like an opinion again.

Even in the dark ages (before the fire), when I tracked five-man +/- in my own MS Access application, that was probably the closest we've ever had to a purely fact-based thread on here. And that was distorted because (a) I was trying to prove individual +/- was meaningless in basketball and (b) it turned out to be really arbitrary - substitutions during FTs, players playing multiple postions, etc.

If the alternatives are "put a disclaimor on everything because its an opinion" and "everything on here is an opinion" then I'm going to come in closer the latter than the former.

Maybe we could try the opposite to Alabama Rednick's thought - if you are posting something clearly factual then document it as such.

My employer had net income of $40 million last year. That's a fact (according to GAAP, at least. One can also argue that net income is a concept that can change over time and that free cash flow is the better statistic. But even that has flaws when it comes to discretionary spending and dividends... ugh.)

Is that good?

Maybe. Net income margin of 6% means that we turned a positive profit. Or perhaps its bad, since analysts expected a higher number. Or perhaps its bad becasue the margin is worse than last year's. Or perhaps its good because management overcame some obstacles at mid-year and straightened it back out. Or perhaps its bad because it wasn't high enough to fund the bonus pool. Or perhaps its good because in the current economy it could have been much worse.

Those all look like opinions to me. But since my day job is all about having an opinion, many of which are supported by statistics and many of which are being opposed by someone using the exact same statistics to reach a different opinion, that creeps into my views on a number of topics.

Putnam
03-02-2009, 04:11 PM
OK, sorry. My opinion about J's opinion was incorrect, though your reply is sort of crafty. You respond by asking "Is that good?" -- a question which data cannot answer without interpretation, without first acknowledging that data is often useful at answering the more basic question: "What is true?"

Many times I've read posts saying things like, "All the Pacers did was jack up 3s," when the NBA.com box score shows the Pacers scored more points in the paint than their opponent, and that the Pacers ratio of 3s to all field goal attempts was not much different than the league average overall. They may have taken too many 3s in that game, but the opinion that "all they did" was shoot 3s is false and can be proven false by data.

Sometimes I read "So-and-so disappeared on offense in the second half," when I remember Kevin Lee saying the player had 10 points at the half and he finished with 15 or 16 points and 5 assists. I imagine in such cases that the fan/poster genuinely saw less offensive action from that player in the second half, but only because the teams changed ends and he was farther from the Pacers' goal in the second half.

You are certainly right that people can make a lot of bad assumptions based on a couple of data points. (We shouldn't rightly even use the word "statistics" respecting box scores, since statistics are more than more tallies).

If we are incapable of ever learning from the data and incapable of ever drawing the right conclusions from data, then we ought to abandon it and stick with opinions only. Is that where we are?

Speed
03-02-2009, 04:23 PM
There's about a 47% chance I'm going to stop reading a thread that I started.... :D

duke dynamite
03-02-2009, 04:31 PM
There's about a 47% chance I'm going to stop reading a thread that I started.... :D
47%? Wow. I didn't start it and I still want more...lol.

ChicagoJ
03-02-2009, 04:38 PM
If we are incapable of ever learning from the data and incapable of ever drawing the right conclusions from data, then we ought to abandon it and stick with opinions only. Is that where we are?

Nah, its a useful tool to help us figure out the right conclusions, but only when used properly. There are Hollingers in every field - not just basketball analysis, that misuse and abuse statistics. It isn't the be-all, end-all solution, and its not "of no value". Its somewhere in the middle, along with other tools.

Including non-statistical evidence and observations, intuition, etc.


You are certainly right that people can make a lot of bad assumptions based on a couple of data points. (We shouldn't rightly even use the word "statistics" respecting box scores, since statistics are more than more tallies).

Seems to me that you probably agree that a site like PD is 99% opinion and 1% fact.

Does a guy "disappear from the offense" in the second half, or does the defense "make an adjustment."? Both are opinion that can be supported or disproved by the same evidence/ statistics (because those statistics came from one source - the game in question.)

Einstein
03-02-2009, 05:58 PM
Quoting from a popular radio host here in Dallas, Texas...

"I don't need your statistics! I watched the damn game!"


This is not me making a definitive statement. I just thought it was funny and a bit relevant.

Putnam
03-02-2009, 09:35 PM
Are we going to believe some popular radio host in Dallas? Or Motown?


People say believe half of what you see
And none of what you hear.


In a pro basketball game, each team gets 80 to 100 possessions -- sometimes more. Any fan who watches the game can remember a number of those possessions. Many can remember and assimilate more of them than I can. But not one in ten thousand can remember every single one of those 200 possessions. A typical observer remembers outstanding plays. They don't notice the great majority of plays that aren't remarkable but which contribute to the outcome. The box score tells the facts that you can't remember.

Memory is very subjective. Eyewitnesses in court trials are known to be pretty unreliable. Is there any reason to suppose that basketball fans can assimilate all the many movements in a 2-hour game?


Does a guy "disappear from the offense" in the second half, or does the defense "make an adjustment."? Both are opinion that can be supported or disproved by the same evidence/ statistics (because those statistics came from one source - the game in question.)

What I don't understand is the urge to use subjective and conjectural words to describe something for which clear and certain numbers are available. It is true that, in somebody's opinion, TJ Ford "disappeared" in the second half of a game. Well, I don't know what he means by disappeared. I do know that Ford didn't literally disappear, so I'm left guessing what the poster meant. But the box score shows he scored 10 in the first half and 5 in the second. No ambiguity there.

At its best, PD is a place where people make observations that confirm and elaborate on the facts of the data. It its worst, it is people putting too much trust on too few bits of subjective memory, and mistaking the heat with which they state their views for certainty that those views are correct.




Nah, its a useful tool to help us figure out the right conclusions, but only when used properly.


:bowdown: :cheers:

MagicRat
03-02-2009, 09:56 PM
Very nice work. I thought that was actually Snake until I was like "Wait...I don't recall Kurt Russell being so handsome."

It's a fact that only 2.3% of PD members noticed anything in the picture other than Adrienne Barbeau's cleavage......

sweabs
03-02-2009, 10:04 PM
If there aren't opinions around here, then PD will consist entire of box scores, wacky trade proposals, and some counting thing that I've heard about but never actually seen myself.
Not true!

This screenshot was taken from the counting thread. See for yourself (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=35735)!

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3036/countingtruth.jpg

Therefore, I conclude that we cannot take anything ChicagoJ says seriously.



Just my opinion.

ChicagoJ
03-02-2009, 10:27 PM
:yikes:

Well, I didn't see that one coming.

grace
03-02-2009, 11:22 PM
This screenshot was taken from the counting thread. See for yourself (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=35735)!

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3036/countingtruth.jpg



We've all done stupid things we'd rather forget.

Los Angeles
03-03-2009, 12:40 AM
Good to see Mark Boyle on there.

IndyHoosier
03-03-2009, 12:50 AM
Bellisimo has the best profile pictures, JMO!!!

Unclebuck
03-03-2009, 09:04 AM
Quoting from a popular radio host here in Dallas, Texas...

"I don't need your statistics! I watched the damn game!"


This is not me making a definitive statement. I just thought it was funny and a bit relevant.

I think that is the most important thing. Stats tell me very little if I haven't watched the game. But if I have watched the game, then stats can be a good tool to explain what happened

Will Galen
03-03-2009, 09:51 AM
We've all done stupid things we'd rather forget.
Jay is good at it, he's already forgot. :p

ChicagoJ
03-03-2009, 06:32 PM
Jay is good at it, he's already forgot. :p

In my defense (and it is not easy to defend this), Will and I are tied with two fewer posts than Grace.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=35735

Los Angeles
03-03-2009, 07:10 PM
Good to know how much to subtract from each users post count to get the all important statistic "posts that should count".

heywoode
05-13-2009, 07:17 PM
We've all done stupid things we'd rather forget.


Easy there, girl. Nobody calls you stupid for the stuff you do....or maybe they do...

Either way, if it weren't for the counting thread, there would be weeks at a time that I wouldn't even come to PD. Sometimes it is the only conversation worth reading.

Oh, and I just read this entire thread because it was nominated for OT thread of the year. I have to say that my head hurts now, but I have a far greater understanding of why I spend so much time here counting. This thread doesn't get my vote for thread of the year, and I'll not vote for my own thread(s), so I guess the third one is my winner.

Los Angeles
05-13-2009, 08:14 PM
Good to know how much to subtract from each users post count to get the all important statistic "posts that should count".

Nobody got my sly Murphy rebound reference?

:kickcan:

Haggard
05-13-2009, 09:50 PM
Nobody got my sly Murphy rebound reference?

:kickcan:

Im not touching that... thats a junk post..

ChicagoJ
05-13-2009, 10:50 PM
Oh, we got it...

:console:

btowncolt
07-05-2009, 10:56 PM
I mean seriously, how many threads have you watched and thought "man, Seth isn't being an a$$, he's being nice to these other guys"? I've seen Btown have those nights, though in his case it's more one-liners than basketball. But he has nights where he amazes the other posters with how many good basketball posts he makes.

Ya'll ain't sneakin' that by me. I will throw down.

Edit: Oops. Didn't realize how old this thread was. Sorry, I'll head back to the sidelines for another year.

Suaveness
07-05-2009, 11:01 PM
Ya'll ain't sneakin' that by me. I will throw down.

Edit: Oops. Didn't realize how old this thread was. Sorry, I'll head back to the sidelines for another year.

Oh good. You shouldn't really come out of the basement, you know. It's not good for your health.

Naptown_Seth
07-05-2009, 11:18 PM
Oh paint huffing, why must you confuse some people's brains so much. At least now I know that wasn't lipstick Btown had on his lips.


The funny thing is I think the demeanor has taken a change here in the summer so I thought this thread was being bumped for a reason.

grace
07-06-2009, 12:35 AM
I was going to say you know it's the dog days of summer when people start bumping archaic threads, but it's just btown the ground hog popping up.

pizza guy
07-06-2009, 12:53 AM
Oh paint huffing, why must you confuse some people's brains so much. At least now I know that wasn't lipstick Btown had on his lips.


The funny thing is I think the demeanor has taken a change here in the summer so I thought this thread was being bumped for a reason.

That's what I thought. :laugh:

Justin Tyme
07-06-2009, 08:54 AM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;907167]


The funny thing is I think the demeanor has taken a change here in the summer QUOTE]


Annual pilgrimage of the summer "newbies."

Tom White
07-06-2009, 09:20 AM
I was going to say you know it's the dog days of summer when people start bumping archaic threads, but it's just btown the ground hog popping up.

If he sees his shadow, does that mean six more weeks before the Pacers make a deal?

grace
07-06-2009, 05:38 PM
If he sees his shadow, does that mean six more years before the Pacers make a deal?'

Fixed. :evillaugh